Latest / High Five Hot Mess Podcast / Without My Job, Who Was I? | Rebuilding After Quiet Firing
Transcript
- Lisa Wilson: So Lisa, we are gonna cover your pivot story after 40. And I've been looking forward to it all week. So take us back to the beginning and walk us through it. Lisa Smith: All right. Well, what I can say is it was uncomfortable. It was scary. It was challenging. ⁓ it was new on all levels for me and unknown is is not always easy. But now being kind of on the other side of some of the tougher times and starting my new chapter, it's equally uncomfortable and scary and challenging. but the difference is is it's kind of exciting too. It's an opportunity for me to break some chains, some bad behaviors, ⁓ some, you know, boundary issues that I had that really once ⁓ tied and connected me to some unrealist unrealistic definitions of success. I think also tying myself worth and value to my job. ⁓ that's one of the biggest things I've learned through this entire ⁓ Situation. ⁓ I lived with that belief for many, many years in different roles, different companies, chasing every gold star along the way. ⁓ and it literally almost killed me. So, with that being said, I want to kind of take you to the beginning of ⁓ the industry that I was in, where I started my career. And kind of how it transpired, how really the change transpired. So I was actually in a pretty incredible industry for a few decades. ⁓ you were as well. ⁓ I think we can both admit that for the most part it was fun, it was thrilling, it was expire inspiring, pretty freaking glamorous at times, sexy at times. I mean, you name it. I think we experienced a lot of really cool things. ⁓ everything was an excess, I feel also. ⁓ the fashion, the travel, the money, the private jets, the people we met, the parties we attended. ⁓ everything we did was on a large scale. I sometimes thought I had the best job in on the planet. ⁓ and you and I have talked about it multiple times, kind of what that looked like and felt like. ⁓ it was it was like a drug, like we couldn't get enough sometimes. Yeah, we worked hard and we played even harder. I can say that you and I definitely and then as I you know worked with other peers, it was the same thing. Unfortunately, though, kind of a dark side to that excess. ⁓ and sometimes I wonder how we're still alive, to be honest. We Days without sleeping, just five alone. And again, yes, eating. We didn't just diet, we starved ourselves. Or we forgot we had to eat as a human being, right? Because we were so focused on getting the job done or delivering a product that we were asked to do. Yeah. ⁓ image was everything. So money, so much money was spent on keeping up and keeping up with ⁓ the current fashion, the current trends, you know, all of that. I I look I think like, ⁓ my gosh, I would get paid and I would spend the majority of my paycheck there for a long time on brand new clothes. ⁓ you know, on expensive things. ⁓ Lisa Wilson: Debt. Lisa Smith: Yes, yes. So the excess was there also. It was good and bad. ⁓ I was thinking back too about, you know, some times where we would be at meetings and I mean, and it didn't matter what company I worked for. You'd be at meetings, you would be, you know, travel, thousands of people there, meetings all day, just back to back to back, five ⁓ one hits, you're blazed off to a ⁓ you're in full party mode at five ⁓ one, right? And there was sometimes so much alcohol being served that and and very little food. A lot of times very little food. ⁓ then unfortunately a lot of people made some pretty stupid ⁓ career mistakes in the process or landed themselves in the hospital without a job on Monday. You know? So it was there was no balance Lisa Wilson: Or Lisa Smith: to anything. And it truly was go bigger, go home. ⁓ so ⁓ but it was fun. It was it was fun. It was exciting. It was new it was different. And we would wake it up wake up the next morning and do it all over again. It was fun as we were winning. And we were winning. Yes, that is a really good point. Lisa Wilson: We ⁓ Lisa Smith: ⁓ you didn't just work hard, you gave your blood, sweat, and tears to it all, right? ⁓ we were expected to do that though. So I think there's also like something innately ⁓ part of our DNA that we would want to do that, but there was also an unwritten expectation to do that too. I definit I had spent about 20 years of my life riding this roller coaster at level ten every day, mock 90 every year. ⁓ and I truly felt there I was at the top of my game. And I was really proud of where I was. ⁓ I mean it honestly it was just it was good until it wasn't good. Right? And ⁓ thinking back to the big event that probably tipped my crown the most, it actually had nothing to do with my professional career. ⁓ and it really started the ball rolling downhill. it was personal. and turning 40, getting a divorce, and for the first time in my life, having being a single parent. was a sweet little adorable human looking at you depending on everything. And in that moment I had no idea what I was going to do. I had my li I had planned my life out. I thought I was on this tri this particular trajectory and I just got like a nuke bomb right in my life. Everything changed, which also meant that my priorities had to change. How I showed up had to change. What I was doing had to change. ⁓ I couldn't couldn't travel anymore like I was traveling, you know, five, six days a week, gone all the time. I couldn't do it. And in order to maintain the roles that I had held there for many years, I had to. So I had to make some hard choices, and one of them was to stop looking for those types of roles and maybe start looking at some doing something maybe a little more local, something where I could be home at night or not travel as much, where I Could just, I wasn't worried about the title necessarily. I wasn't worried necessar totally about the salary at that point. I was more worried about being able to be present and taking care of what I needed to take care of. So I started applying for a series of local companies, which usually meant owner ran. small to medium sized organizations within the city that I lived in. I had been working my entire career for large national retailers on a pretty big scale, high volume, high profile. So this was absolutely going to be an adjustment for me. ⁓ And I know you and I have had many conversations about what working for companies That have owners that are still highly connected to the business or engaged on a daily basis with the operations of the company, heavily involved, right? and kind of what that looks like. And it's it's not all bad, I think. but there are some shared similarities that I think over a course of 10 years working for a few of them. I definitely was able to see a common thread. ⁓ it can be really rewarding and hard as hell at the same time. there's an there's an unwritten expectation, I think, working for owner ran companies that you should be w in their brain. Number one. Number two. expected to care and work as hard as they think you should, which is never good enough because they did it when they were st hustling starting their company. Which I hats off to everybody who has started a company. It's hard. It's cling. There's a lot of of extra time, energy and effort. You've got to be a visionary. You've got to be able to take risks, calculated risks, and not be afraid to fail, right? Like there's a lot of really cool things. But there's also this strange dynamic that happens where I think they want to scale. So they hire big personalities to bring the talent to the table, but then they start not allowing you to have autonomy to do your job effectively. They'll micromanage maybe communicate poorly, lead so passionately that doesn't necessarily it's not professional. You know, like there's a lot of things sometimes that can get in the way. And I want to be clear though, not every owner round company is like this. These are some of my experiences. What I did start to find is that I wasn't fitting in. To the self-appointed CEOs that had never worked another job. That job. some kind of loosey-goosey processes, maybe biases. I don't know, your friend running the HR department. people sometimes just maybe not as qualified to be in the roles that they were in, making some pretty dang big decisions. So imagine me. Big energy Lisa coming in thinking that I could help solve all the problems. Didn't work so well. ⁓ for the next 10 years, I tried to add value anywhere I could, but it was time and time again trying to shove a square peg into a round hole. And I was trying to make something work that just wasn't going to work. I had to become the circle to fit into their box, I felt like at a lot of times. And I also found myself getting smaller and smaller to make them feel better. I had a good run. I learned a lot. I accomplished big things that I'd be proud of. ⁓ so through the journey from one company to the next. I had to figure out how to lead differently, communicate differently, and kind of be different. I was not bringing my authentic self to the table all the time. I was told I was intimidating. I w I took up a lot of space in a room. Be quiet. good competent people expect good management. Toxic bosses can't handle good people. ⁓ and I was told because of that, you're just not a match. ⁓ so I was used to working for like supernova leaders in the organizations I had worked for before. And I did go in expecting that same level of class, dignity, respect, professionalism. I mean, the list could go on, right? And I didn't. Think that that was too much to ask. ⁓ but I kind of found out the hard way that it it's not like a given. I allowed myself to be put through some really horrible, toxic, unprofessional, hostile, like literal mind blowing situations because I simply needed the job. And as much as I tried to conform, it just wasn't me. I kept going. I didn't quit. I stayed time and time again trying to figure out how to make it work, trying to figure out how to do better, be better. And all along I was fine. but I kind of lost who I was in the process. I lost what I brought to the table. I lost what brought me there in the first place. Kind of sad when I look back at it. But I'm so glad that I honestly have gone through it because now I know I'll never do that again. Mm-hmm. ⁓ it was a huge lesson. So The minute that I knew that it was coming to an end. And that was I remember what I was wearing. I remember where I was. I remember the people that were in the room. And I remember being able to hear like the air conditioning going. ⁓ and it was like so loud, but it really wasn't loud. But it was like loud. It like silenced everybody out. ⁓ I remember thinking, ⁓ my gosh, it has been right in front of my face. And I kept trying to pass it off as I must have misunderstood. I must have not not understood the situation correctly, or thinking I could fix what I didn't even understand was broken. ⁓ My box had kept getting smaller and smaller and smaller. I was suffocating and like slowly being erased right in front of my face. And I didn't see it then. I can see it now, but I didn't see it then. ⁓ it knocked the wind right out of me. I was hurt, I was sad, I was confused, and I was pissed. I was so mad. I had spent all of this time making millions of dollars for these companies. And all along, it was all high fives, shaking hands and kissing babies. You're amazing. Good job. Don't know what we'd do without you. Here's another promotion. More responsibility. But they're Actions did not match their words. I I started to think like, okay, somebody is gaslighting me 'cause this changed Quickly, in a sense. Who was it? Were my friends my friends? You know? like who can I trust here? Hmm Nobody, probably. Who was orchestrating all of it? Who jumped on the bus to save themselves? You know, all those like terrible things go through your mind and then you're just like, I don't even know what I can and can't do. So there you are, you've lost trust, you've lost faith, and everything you know is like not as you thought it was. You're completely on edge and you You don't know where to turn. 'Cause once again, the minute that you lose trust in the people that you really care about. There's like no going back, like you're alone. You know, and I think like never a bad performance review, never a nothing in my file, never a coaching conversation. Nothing. And then I realized ⁓ my god, I'm being quietly fired. I had asked if my job was at risk multiple times and I was told no. So let that sink in for a second. You kind of start to feel the vibe changing. You kind of start to see things are not making sense like they used to. So you're like, is there something going on? So you ask the people you think you can trust, right? Mm-hmm. And You're told no, you don't have anything to worry about. So being quietly fired serves only cowards in leadership, I think. It's a tactic often used, unfortunately, where you are basically being told that we have to make a tough decision, you didn't make the cut, or you're no longer part of the long-term plan. Okay, that's okay. That happens, right? We have to businesses have to make hard decisions every single day. But the difference with being using quiet firing is that they're they don't tell you that for months. They take away responsibility. They don't tell you why. They start ghosting you. You know, ⁓ they start making your work environment so terrible that nobody in their right mind would stay. They want you to quit. So they don't have to fire you and pay out a severance or approve an unemployment claim or whatever the reasons are. so like I had red flags all over the place that I overlooked because there was always an excuse to justify them. So look, decisions were being made in rooms I wasn't in, or right in front of my face which should have been my decisions to make. Or my decisions were being overridden. Those are big red flags. Ad hoc meetings started happening when I wasn't in the room, but I always had been in the room before. So invites were getting taken off your calendar. Touch bases and meetings canceled. Right? Employees that used to be wallflowers at one time all of a sudden started getting keys to the kingdom, being asked to do big shit when they had track records of being asleep at the wheel for like years. So also when I would ask questions, I got super vague answers. And I can see now that that was just to withhold information because they didn't want to get caught, right? The tenth floor stopped talking to you. Little engagement or avoidance, which was not normal. My circle of influence kept getting smaller and eventually so did I, honestly. And for the record, it's such a chicken shit approach to downsizing your talent levels using this method. Like have some leadership courage for God's sake. Have some compassion for what you are about to do. Business is hard. I get that. Times can get tough. Get that too. But how you treat someone during the tough times really matter? There's a human factor side of this equation that gets missed so often. ⁓ and it's sad. People say we're in the people business, not when tough times happen. They make really bad decisions on behalf of their people. I get it. You might need to restructure, reorganize. Fine, but you don't have to forget the impact it makes and the ripple effect it can cause. Human beings that once helped you again. make millions of dollars. I mean, let me be clear, the company is always in control of how they roll out a mass layoff or a smaller type of restructure plan. They have nobody else telling them what to do. So they're the ones that chose to do that or do it that way, right? Yep. Yeah. They don't have to treat you like shit. They do not have to ghost you. They do not have to degrade you. They do not have to string out the agony for months. They absolutely can be upfront, be honest, and give you time. They know months in advance of these types of decisions that have to be made. The conversations are being happened. a long time before they actually pull the trigger. So they could use it wisely, right? I mean, I know it works because I've done it right. I've had to be the one that's had to lay off a lot of people. I've had to be the one that had to make those decisions on who was on that list sometimes. But I didn't have to treat them with disrespect. And I didn't. I was able to give them the opportunity a lot of times to ⁓ you know, with approval, of course, from our CEO, to give them time to be up front, to give them the opportunity to let them know, you know, what was going to be happening, give them the opportunity to know that they're going to have to have tough conversations with their teams as well, and kind of get their thoughts on how they wanted to either stay. And or exit. Mm-hmm. That put power back into their hands and gave them the opportunity to say, you know what? I I actually am not gonna want to take this option. ⁓ but this is how I want it to go down. I want to be able to tell my team. Unfortunately, it can't always happen that way, and I get that, but when it can do the right thing, yeah, would be my advice. ⁓ But we all know that didn't happen. Lisa Wilson: It's not happening today in our environment that we're in either. So Lisa Smith: Yeah, it's it's hard, it's tough. Yeah. ⁓ so like I guess fast forward to how I handled it. And I didn't handle it well at all. ⁓ I stayed too long. Was trying to be loyal, try again, trying to fix everything. ⁓ I knew I didn't belong there anymore, but I just kept thinking back in my head, like thinking about the promises that they would come true. That, you know, if I just did this, it would make a difference. ⁓ but it didn't. ⁓ You know, I didn't have the best coping skills. ⁓ you and I had talked a lot, I think, about like talk therapy and like different things to do that could benefit just me trying to figure out my new normal. And I just I didn't I don't think I did enough fast enough before I spiraled ⁓ to a dark place. And You know, I It was just weird because I was like, what what do I do now? Like I wake up, I don't go anywhere now. Like nobody needs me now. It's not like my child didn't need me. Yes, my child needed me. But I was like The whole community of friends and peers that I had like gone. People stop calling you. I get that. You know, I lost doing a job that I loved. That's hard. So yeah, without my job, who was I? What value did I have? That's a hard question to ask yourself over a job. You know, what I do, what do I do that matters? Like I would ask myself all the time, like, what am I even good at anymore? ⁓ and it was. It was like such a grief that I hadn't felt in a really long time. Like it was my compass, I think. And when it was out of whack, I totally was a fish out of water. I didn't know what to do. Yeah. Staying too long was Probably one of the biggest mistakes that I made. because if it was always like feeling like I was trying to like hold us up a sinking ship with a wad of bubble comb. And I forgot to put on my life vest at the same time. So it was just like Yep, I did. I totally and and it didn't do anything for my personal self-worth, like how I looked at myself, how I treated others, how I treated myself. Lisa Wilson: Totally did. Lisa Smith: It it just didn't serve me well. So I'm I'm looking forward to having a more in depth conversation about that because I think that is definitely a good learning lesson for many. but you know it didn't end there. It's not all gloom and doom. ⁓ I started on a journey to find my next gig. It was not easy at all. I like I remember like the like the first like week. And I remember like waking up every day and being like, there's absolutely no way I'm leaving my house. I don't want to run into anyone. I don't want to get like ready. I don't want to put on makeup. I don't want to talk to anybody. I don't want to blah blah blah blah blah. Like all the things, right? Yeah. And I but I was like, I don't also want to stay here every day and stare at these walls. I am going to go insane. Lisa Wilson: Peak. Lisa Smith: Yeah. And it took me a minute, ⁓ a hot minute, to like get my shit together and like start climbing my way out of this like nightmare. and I had to like figure out how I was gonna like when I was going to be ready to get that next job. Because like I was in such a weird spot. Like I had been in fight or flight mode for a decade. And I was now like again, level 10 fighter f like it just it was the feelings were so raw and so weird that I didn't know kind of how to handle them sometimes. And so I But then in the back of my head, I kept thinking, I'm not gonna have a hard time finding a job. You know, I had the skills, I had the experience in many areas of business, I had the drive, I had the determination. The smiles. Yeah, I had the network. But I honest to God could not land an interview for months. I retried time and time again to restructure my approach day in and day out and nothing. I had a really good friend at the time that was going through a very similar situation. You know, restructure, looking for another job at over 40, kind of running into the same roadblocks, and also applying for the same jobs. Like we had kind of a very similar history. And so I I knew it wasn't just me, but that still doesn't like pay the bills. So it was really hard trying to figure out how I was gonna navigate ⁓ just roadblock after roadblock after roadblock block. Like I had been the interviewer thousands of times during my career. Right. So it shouldn't have been hard, right? Nope. Wrong. I had I had reviewed thousands of resumes and applications and knew how to write a compelling one in a snap, right? Yeah. That's gonna land me that dream job. Wrong. It didn't. The recruiting, interview, resume, hiring process looks so different today than it ever has. And I just wasn't prepared. ⁓ like I ran into a list of curveballs. longer than I want to admit. so like number one, you cannot speak to a human until later in the process. AI now fields all applications and triggers preset. Sometimes a hiring manager will not even see a good candidate because they didn't check the box. I have a bachelor's degree. But the job posting required it, right? Yeah. But what they missed is that that candidate who has All the other skills would have been a great fit, gets their bachelor's degree next semester. But without a human factor, yeah, those great candidates are gonna slip to the no. Number two, you have to rewrite, makes sense, tweak your resume each time you submit your application. Lisa Wilson: Percent. Lisa Smith: Gone are the days of attaching the most updated version to every application that doesn't every word matters, or AI will kick you out. Of the running. And it is ours. I mean, there were days where I would I mean, y you could send 20 out, right? Some people said we should be sending a hundred out a day. A hundred rewrites, a hundred. Lisa Wilson: Mm-mm. Lisa Smith: And that's not including the actual searches to find these jobs that you think will work and be a fit wherever you are. So just the search alone, then rewriting your resume and doing a cover letter. A lot of them need cover letters. ⁓ it's very time consuming and quite daunting. And then you have to still fill out an application online. There are also not all easy applications. Some of them you have to do too. You have to go to their website. So there's just so many steps, right? So that was that was a big one. The third one is age discrimination. It is real. Yep. I had never experienced it before, but it was so obvious. I was like literally shocked. I'd be in an interview with like a nothing against silver hair. I have a bunch of my own. But A silver haired man who would mansplain it to me how I'm no longer relevant. Lisa Wilson: I gotta tell you, you guys, it's killing me to live some of this over with Lisa because I was talking to her kind of throughout all these things that were happening. Yeah, I could just shake my fist at the sky every time I would talk to her. But I think there's a couple of things I'd like to circle back to that I want to definitely highlight for people who are listening that might not have the context that I think I want to add. So the first thing you talked about is it was really scary changing jobs, and it was scary. being afraid that you at any moment we were in an industry in that toxic work relationship where we could lose our job. And it's because the context is that we worked in an industry that if you were fired from your last job, you were basically blacklisted your entire area. So like it was it was a well known thing that you would do anything to avoid being fired. And that kind of fed into that abusive relationship that your employer would have with you. Lisa Smith: Yeah. Lisa Wilson: Because everything was a threat that you were gonna be fired. Like the number one in the company the next day they're like, you could be fired. And it And they know everyone. Mm-hmm. Yes, it was very incestuous. And that was that was a real thing back then. Now I don't think so much. Like I think if that we're kind of aging ourselves, but again, this is pivots after forty and that was something that I will say today's environment not as prevalent as it was to Lisa and I back in the day. Lisa Smith: And they know everyone, right? Lisa Wilson: ⁓ in that industry. And then the second is the dark side. So I want to just highlight a little bit as a recovering alcoholic what I mean by the dark side. So Lisa and I, I mean, like she said, it was the best of times and the worst of times and excess was real. we worked for some leadership that loved party. Yeah. Loved to party so much that if you did not drink Lisa Smith: We Lisa Wilson: Or participate in whatever shenanigans they wanted to participate in. You were also blacklisted. Yes. Right? So I remember literally hiding in a closet at a company event, calling my husband drunk and sobbing that I I couldn't take another day. I wanted to come home. And you guys, when I tell you that that she sent someone to come in and get me and drag me from the closet to go drink some more, that is a honest to God true story. Yeah. Lisa Smith: Like thinking I cannot have another glass of alcohol. It number one, it's not appropriate to go past like two drinks, right? Like or whatever. Lisa Wilson: Because you also had to keep it cool. Yeah, you had to fire who was Lisa Smith: ⁓ And I remember being like, I've got to just put water in this glass and make it look like I ha and and if sh and I had a boss that would come over and say, What are you drinking? And I had to like find what looked like water with lime on it or whatever. Lisa Wilson: And then they would tell on you. Like if someone learned in your little clique that you were not drinking, they would tell on you. It was, you guys, it was it was for real like dark. And then there's the other element of messing around with people's work. Or having like if your if your leadership team is all having extramarital affairs, you were expected to have an extramarital affair. And you guys. Lisa Smith: I would tell on you. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: I know that some of you are like, what? They were like, that's not true. You guys. So I just, I mean, I never did I was that I didn't have to like participate in those shit. But it didn't make correct no, we were not popular Yeah, correct. I mean, because we were narcs, right? Like they were like, ⁓ well, like blah, blah, blah. Or like they would put you in rooms with people you didn't know when you were traveling, like, you know, other store managers or whatever. Lisa Smith: In circles, right? ⁓ Lisa Wilson: And there were times that people felt like they had to have sex with their room person because if they didn't, they weren't going to be favored because they were in a power position and you were not in a power position. There's this whole undercurrent that led to our cult like belief and follow in in these roles that we were in, that unless you were living it, you would not ever believe it. And I don't I truly don't believe that it exists today. ⁓ but it was it was all part of feeding this thing that Lisa is talking about when she was, you know, in it like a hundred percent. And then one of the things that you also said that I wanna make sure I I and I could be wrong. This is a question. So when you went from working for the big brands and traveling all the time, working local, did you take a cut and pay to work local? Was it the salary the same? Lisa Smith: Huge cut in pay. A huge cut in pay. Mm-hmm. So I was just Lisa Wilson: That's why I mean you guys, this is what like when we when she is saying, similar to in my story, you get out of this big dreamy location and you have to come home and work locally, the salary is night and day. And it it also fed into this anxiety. And now she's a single parent. She's working for making half of what she was making. And now she's working for owners who You know, I love Steve Jobs. I know a lot of people think he's a monster, but Steve Jobs always believed that you should let your talent be the talent, right? Like you hired them for because they are big talent. Lisa this is Lisa's story, but she really is a big talent and she does not make herself smaller for people. And you can imagine how threatening that might be when she comes walking in with her big sleeves and great hair and great makeup. And works twice as hard as everyone around her, how intimidating that might be to an owner who doesn't want to be shown up in front of their their office staff, right? Like these are real things that impact the psyche of all of these different changes and things that happen as we kind of go through those. And then the, you know, the the thing that I wanted to kind of ask about as well is the red flags. So when you started seeing the red flags, like me, when I see red flags, I take my ball and go home. This week she was like, You can't take your ball and go home over everything. I'm like, burning it down. I'm like that. I'm done. but like Lisa is so loyal. She's always been loyal to a fault. So when you started seeing these red flags, did you start looking for a lifeboat? Lisa Smith: Yeah. I I I did I did interview a little bit, like I did put myself out there, like and that was one thing too. Like I recruiters would call me all the time and I would never answer. Or I if I did answer, I would try to help them fill that role. Lisa Wilson: That they were looking for. I mean I wasn't gonna leave. Like what I mean when you say give your life jacket to someone else, you've never saved it for yourself. Lisa Smith: No, I never did. I it's just so bizarre when I think about it, but it was like so normal to me. I'm loyal to my boss. I'm loyal to my team. I'm, you know, machine and never never sought to put my life jacket on myself. No. And you know, I mean again, I did inter yes, I did. I did reach out, but it wasn't like to the level that I probably should have, knowing that it was gonna come to an end. Because I kept thinking I could still fix it. Yeah. Lisa Wilson: And last but not least, before we go into the rest of the story, because there's you we're not done yet, guys. It's exciting. We're gonna get there. But one of the things that I wanted to kind of talk about is our age and the what that means to some of this red flag dynamic. And then when Lisa and I, you know, because of our age, we were really taught to trust superiors and to trust leadership. Like, you know, so we just If they were at the boss, you did what they said. Like that is a thousand percent like what we were from my parents to my siblings to my friends to my work culture. It was the people in charge know what's best. So you need to do what they're you need to trust them. So when Lisa is going to leadership and saying, am I in trouble? Is my job at risk? And they're saying no, she fucking believed them. Like why would she not? Lisa Smith: Trip off the ⁓ Lisa Wilson: think that why would she think they were lying to her? Like it just never it never occurred to her as it does most people are ages the first time we get really hung out to dry ⁓ that people in leadership positions lie and it it's a painful lesson Lisa Smith: For many different reasons, I guess. Lisa Wilson: Reason. I mean, but look, like we never lie, right? So like I will tell you to your face that you're in trouble because I'd rather be on like when you know, and we're gonna do an episode on performance evaluations 'cause at least it's least a nice love language. But I always was trained and I trained others. People should never be surprised that you're in trouble at work. Like ever, ever be surprised. Like you should always man up and be as honest as possible. That's your job. But coming from the top down, like I I know Have thought that that was possible or that that would happen. You can only imagine the gut punch after you had been asking them if that was gonna happen and they lied to your face. And even though you kept seeing the signs and the red flags, and everyone's like, get out, ho, but it's not you they're after, it's somebody else. And then you ended up overstaying.