Latest / The MeatEater Podcast / Ep. 921: Scent, Smell, and Science: Olfaction in Humans, Deer, and Dogs

Transcript

Ep. 921: Scent, Smell, and Science: Olfaction in Humans, Deer, and Dogs · The MeatEater Podcast

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  Speaker 1: S T L I T E dot com. All right, everybody,
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  Speaker 1: you're gonna learn everything you ever want to learn about
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  Speaker 1: about Oh, what's shoot? I can't even say the word
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: old faction, old action? Like how do animals smell? What
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: do they smell? Do humans really suck at smelling? What
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: does a hound dog smell? When it smell something? When
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: you when a deer catches your wind? What's happening? Is
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: there any way to have a deer not catch your wind?
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: How good are they? How bad are we? We're gonna
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: learn everything you ever want to know about about human
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: animal ability to smell. Giannis putell Us is here as well,
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: and he's going to ask a lot of very pragmatic,
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: practical questions about how good are hound dogs really and
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: what what conditions make them you know, I know, when
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: do they do their job and not do their job?
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: And who's going to teach us all? This is doctor
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Lucia F. Jacobs. She's an evolutionary biologist, neuroscientist, and Professor
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: Emerita retired but in good standing, yes, Professor Emerita of
• 1:48
  Speaker 1: Psychology and Neuroscience at u C Berkeley, where she directed
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  Speaker 1: the Jacobs Lab of Cognitive Biology. Her research explores how
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: animals use scent to map environments, navigate complex terrain, and
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: solve spatial problems. A world renowned expert on animal cognition,
• 2:11
  Speaker 1: doctor Jacobs has studied squirrel behavior extensively. Her pa, I'm
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: gonna point this out. This isn't in your written bio.
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  Speaker 1: You've studied the eastern gray squirrel, an animal of great importance.
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  Speaker 2: To us since nineteen eighty one.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, the the wiley Eastern gray squirrel. She's writing her
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  Speaker 1: forthcoming book on squirrel cognition, examining the surprising intelligent intelligence
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  Speaker 1: behind how rodents store, recall, and protect thousands of hidden
• 2:46
  Speaker 1: food caches. To get us started, well, welcome to the show.
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: To get us started, let me tell you a thing
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: that I've always thought. And then I came across your work.
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: I got two balls in the air now. I came
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: across your work in a book called Super Navigators and
• 3:08
  Speaker 1: it's a book about how animals navigate, and there was
• 3:12
  Speaker 1: a bit about old faction, and I found your name,
• 3:15
  Speaker 1: and that's how I found you. A thing I've always thought.
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  Speaker 1: And I tell this to my kids. I tell them,
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: like humans, we humans suck at smelling. We can't smell anything.
• 3:30
  Speaker 1: But now a bear. Now there's a guy that can smell, right,
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: It Like, do we suck at smelling? I mean, are
• 3:40
  Speaker 1: we experiencing a world that we can't even understand what
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: an animal is experiencing when it walks outside and takes
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: a whiff of the air, or are we not that
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  Speaker 1: bad at it?
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah? So, I mean there's there's two kinds of old faction.
• 3:51
  Speaker 2: And there's orthonasa where you're sniffing in and you're using
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: that you're like, what's out there in the world.
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  Speaker 1: That's when I go right right.
• 4:01
  Speaker 2: And then there's retro nasal, which is not which is
• 4:03
  Speaker 2: asking what's in my mouth and to do and to
• 4:07
  Speaker 2: and when to kind of sniff what's in your mouth?
• 4:09
  Speaker 2: You breathe out, so you're sending air over the stuff
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  Speaker 2: in your mouth out through your nose. The nose doesn't
• 4:16
  Speaker 2: really care the nose.
• 4:18
  Speaker 3: I have to ask the what the what's in the mouth?
• 4:20
  Speaker 3: That is just scent molecules that have accumulated in your mouth.
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: So if I'm not a wine connoisseur, but if you are,
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: you know, they put wine in their mouth and then
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: they breathe. They take a little bit and they're breathing out.
• 4:34
  Speaker 2: So what they're doing. But anyway, but that's what that's
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: what I mean. They're they're neuroscientists who Gordon Shepherd's written
• 4:44
  Speaker 2: some great stuff about this. But yeah, and so then it's.
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  Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be a physical thing, right, And I'm.
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  Speaker 1: Just you don't have any idea you're doing it right.
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  Speaker 3: Okay, So you have to be like eating something.
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  Speaker 2: Well, if you're if you if you know, you eat something,
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  Speaker 2: you'll only got like five taste receptors. You know, sweet, sour,
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  Speaker 2: you know, salt, but you've got hundreds of all factory receptors.
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  Speaker 1: So you if.
• 5:10
  Speaker 2: You put food in your mouth, what is it You're
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  Speaker 2: going to breathe out and and it's going to go
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  Speaker 2: past your you know, your receptors and your nose and
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  Speaker 2: you're going to get all that information. I mean, sure,
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  Speaker 2: you can also sniff a plate of food and get
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  Speaker 2: a lot of information that would be orthoonasal, but then
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  Speaker 2: once it's in your mouth, you breathe out and then
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  Speaker 2: you're getting retro nasal. So humans are really specialized on flavor,
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  Speaker 2: which is you know, both taste and and and odor.
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  Speaker 2: And we've met for hundreds of thousands of years, we've
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  Speaker 2: been specialized on processing food, cooking food, all that and
• 5:55
  Speaker 2: so and so we've got yeah, we're special in that sense,
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  Speaker 2: but at this ahead no, But at the same time
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  Speaker 2: we are we're not We're not clueless about the other
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  Speaker 2: I mean about where we are in space. And I
• 6:11
  Speaker 2: would say mostly it's because people assume we can't do it,
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  Speaker 2: so there aren't any studies of it. And it wasn't
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  Speaker 2: untill I really started beating the drum that Oldfaction is
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  Speaker 2: being used by across the animal kingdom to orient space
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  Speaker 2: a lot like importantly that I started. Actually, we did
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  Speaker 2: a study of humans where we had people in the
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: big room and we had two like literally Q tips
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  Speaker 2: of odors that were hidden and with all these decoys,
• 6:44
  Speaker 2: so they didn't know what it was, and we had them,
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  Speaker 2: you know, they were blindfolded. We had you know, ear plugs.
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  Speaker 2: The only one the odors we we used actually what
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: people use for nosework, So that's Annis and Birch. It
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  Speaker 2: just those are just ones that are those are the
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  Speaker 2: classic ones that people used to train pet dogs and
• 7:04
  Speaker 2: and but we really had a tiny, tiny amount like
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  Speaker 2: you walk in, you wouldn't think this is smelly room.
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  Speaker 2: And then people are blindfolded and we in a large room,
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  Speaker 2: and we would we took them to a specific place,
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  Speaker 2: but we we did very neandering path and turn them
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  Speaker 2: around around, so they really had no idea where they
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  Speaker 2: were if they couldn't use path integration to know like
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  Speaker 2: where they had come in for the door. And then
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  Speaker 2: they were given one minute to smell that's it. And
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  Speaker 2: then we would do the same meandering turn them around,
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  Speaker 2: turn them around, bring them back out. We take off
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  Speaker 2: the blindfold and the ear and the ear muffs and
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  Speaker 2: then say okay, can go back and find that place
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  Speaker 2: and the only odor. And we did all this you
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  Speaker 2: know carbon you know, scrubbing the room of odors before
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  Speaker 2: and after. So it was really we just had those
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  Speaker 2: two odors and people could find that space again statistically
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  Speaker 2: above above chance. And and when I did it, as
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  Speaker 2: you know.
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  Speaker 1: When you see that space, that spot, they were saying.
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  Speaker 2: Spot that spot. Yeah it's and so no one's ever
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  Speaker 2: done that experiment with any other animal, we think that.
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  Speaker 2: But but but we did it with humans because the
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: humans are easy to train. And you know, I was
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  Speaker 2: in I'm in a psychology department, and as I say,
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  Speaker 2: humans are really good for some things, and this was
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  Speaker 2: an experiment where humans were really We started doing dogs
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  Speaker 2: first and it was like a real pain to train
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: them accurately, so we switched to humans and then it
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  Speaker 2: turns out humans could do it. So but the point
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  Speaker 2: of it is so much of our our processing is
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  Speaker 2: unconscious that humans are probably orienting to odors all the
• 8:49
  Speaker 2: time and don't know it. I see now, I was
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  Speaker 2: when I ran the experiment as a subject. I told
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  Speaker 2: the students, I mean I designed the experiment, and I said,
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  Speaker 2: I have no idea where I was. I'm never gonna
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  Speaker 2: and I would still go back and I would be
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  Speaker 2: back in their accurate place. So consciously I thought.
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  Speaker 1: I didn't know where you had a nasal sort of
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  Speaker 1: like like the relative odors hitting you. This is where
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  Speaker 1: you'd have to go yes, yes, to find that same
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  Speaker 1: blend of smells.
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  Speaker 2: That's exactly. And that's the thing about odors is you
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  Speaker 2: think about the world. There's all these odor plumes coming
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  Speaker 2: from a forest, a stream, a lake, all that, and
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  Speaker 2: they've and you know, wind direction can be fairly standard.
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  Speaker 2: I mean, it's gonna come down of slope. You know,
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  Speaker 2: it's gonna come along a plane a certain way. And
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  Speaker 2: so when you've got two streams of odors crossing, then
• 9:51
  Speaker 2: that blend can become predictable. I mean, that's what that's
• 9:54
  Speaker 2: what we proposed, and that's what we found in humans,
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  Speaker 2: even though without conscious awareness necessarily.
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  Speaker 1: What is it, like, what is the smell that we
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  Speaker 1: smell best? Because I've heard people explain that we're super
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  Speaker 1: good on sulfur, you know, I is there like, is
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  Speaker 1: there some truth to that? There's like some things that
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  Speaker 1: we can detect at parts per parts per million that
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  Speaker 1: maybe other things wouldn't know, Like we're good at certain smells.
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  Speaker 2: No, I and I'm I'm I know that. I think
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  Speaker 2: the smell of a corked wine is apparently something that
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  Speaker 2: maybe that's the sulfur. I don't have those facts right
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  Speaker 2: at my fingertips right in this minute. But they're definitely
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  Speaker 2: people like Gordon Shepherd have shown that humans are better
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  Speaker 2: at there. There are sense that humans can detect better
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  Speaker 2: than a dog definitely. I mean, you know, our old
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  Speaker 2: factory system is really specialized for the species. Like we
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: all have different components. You know, we've all got these
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  Speaker 2: old factory receptor gene but people actually, even in different continents,
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  Speaker 2: will have different receptor genes. And then plus over your lifetime,
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  Speaker 2: you can change the function of those genes by your experience.
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  Speaker 2: That's called these epigenetic processes. And that's been shown in mice,
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  Speaker 2: so that and actually in humans there have been there's
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  Speaker 2: certain odors that most there's like I don't know, a
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  Speaker 2: certain percentage of people can't smell, like twenty percent of people,
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  Speaker 2: and you can take those people and train them for
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: two months and then they can smell it really yes, yes,
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: and and and there's some evidence that with a lot
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: of training, you know, the old factory bulb, which is
• 11:45
  Speaker 2: the part of the brain that detects everything, actually changes
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: in volume and size and can actually increase and in
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  Speaker 2: most in all other vertebrates, humans it's it's it's a
• 12:01
  Speaker 2: little less a little more controversial, But the old factory
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  Speaker 2: bulb has continues to add new neurons new nerve cells
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  Speaker 2: throughout life, and so and in mammals, there's really only
• 12:15
  Speaker 2: two places that keep adding neurons throughout life, and one
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  Speaker 2: is the old factory bulb, and the other is this
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  Speaker 2: brain structure that it's massively connected to, which is the hippocampus,
• 12:30
  Speaker 2: which is guess what, a navigation center.
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  Speaker 1: Oh no, kid, huh.
• 12:35
  Speaker 3: I had a question about that. Just the way our
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: sense of smell developed, I'm getting from the sort of
• 12:43
  Speaker 3: the whole reason for it is just because we liked
• 12:46
  Speaker 3: to eat different things.
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  Speaker 2: I mean that, No, that's actually true. I mean we
• 12:51
  Speaker 2: know we but we had a really good sense of
• 12:53
  Speaker 2: smell before that. And and so that's that's something that
• 12:58
  Speaker 2: I've actually published on, is why humans are the only
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: great ape that has an external nose. So if you
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: think about gorilla orangutang chimp, I mean, there's very few
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: great apes species left. There used to be a lot,
• 13:17
  Speaker 2: but now there's just five of us. But if you
• 13:20
  Speaker 2: also think about all the the hominids that came before
• 13:25
  Speaker 2: our genus Homo, if you think about all the Astralopithecus.
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  Speaker 2: We've got their skulls, and you can see from the
• 13:32
  Speaker 2: skull that there's a bone right here, the naxon that
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: you can feel your own bone, and it's kind of
• 13:38
  Speaker 2: like a ski jump. And so if you look at
• 13:41
  Speaker 2: a human skull, like your skull, you've got a bone
• 13:44
  Speaker 2: that sticks out on top and then a bone that
• 13:48
  Speaker 2: sticks up on the bottom. And so there's actually forensic
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: psychologists or pathologists. You can give them a skull of
• 13:57
  Speaker 2: human and they can reconstruct the nose of that person
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: like one hundred percent accuracy, whereas they say, you can
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: never do that with an ear, you know, but the
• 14:08
  Speaker 2: you know, but the nose, because so they and they
• 14:11
  Speaker 2: do that, they take a picture of the person before
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: they were, you know, dead, and then they've got their
• 14:15
  Speaker 2: skull and then they you know, so they've really nice
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: controlled studies to show that no shape is extremely individual
• 14:24
  Speaker 2: and it can get reconstructed from the skulls. So we
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: can go back and look at Astrolopithecus and know they
• 14:31
  Speaker 2: didn't have an external nose.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: When you say an external nose, you mean just.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Like this stick out thing, right, this stick out thing.
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: I never thought about that, like like a gorilla.
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. And if you look at a
• 14:45
  Speaker 2: gorilla skull, it's you know, it's just it's completely flush. Yeah,
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: or any any of the great apes.
• 14:52
  Speaker 1: What is that? Why? Why is our nose stick out?
• 14:55
  Speaker 2: So that's my That was funny, you should ask so well. No,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: so actually, you know, I'm a squirrel biologist. But there
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: was only one hypothesis to propose why, and that was
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: proposed in nineteen thirteen, which was it humidifies the air
• 15:16
  Speaker 2: before it hits your lungs. You know, if you've got cold,
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: dry air, you know, you don't want that in your lungs.
• 15:22
  Speaker 2: I mean, that makes sense, you know, it's it's so,
• 15:24
  Speaker 2: it's an air conditioner. But I came on the scene
• 15:28
  Speaker 2: and thinking about you know, animal noses, think, well, doesn't
• 15:33
  Speaker 2: have something to do with old faction. And the anthropologists
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: had never considered that the human nose had an old
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: factory function. I mean, it was all been the air
• 15:44
  Speaker 2: conditioning hypothesis. And so this was like twenty fifteen and
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: just then I was really lucky there were some really
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: great anthropologists who were coming out and saying, you know,
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: the old air conditioning hypothesis does not hold we've tested
• 15:59
  Speaker 2: it these assumptions, it's not working anymore. And so it
• 16:03
  Speaker 2: was perfect timing for me to waltz in and say,
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: you know, hey, I'm a squirrel person, but I think
• 16:10
  Speaker 2: we know, I think we need to consider this this
• 16:14
  Speaker 2: And so basically what I proposed is if you look
• 16:17
  Speaker 2: across the animal kingdom, how animals orient in space is
• 16:24
  Speaker 2: by using stereo olfaction. So if you think about stereo vision,
• 16:30
  Speaker 2: that's like, you know, if you can close one eye,
• 16:33
  Speaker 2: you've got mono two eyes stereo, and predators have stereo
• 16:37
  Speaker 2: because it's for depth perception, right, I mean, you can
• 16:40
  Speaker 2: estimate distance better. Well. Nineteen sixty four there was great
• 16:46
  Speaker 2: Hungarian biologists who suggested why can't olfaction work that way?
• 16:51
  Speaker 2: And in the sixties people are already testing it with honeybees.
• 16:55
  Speaker 2: So if you've got they've got antenna, right, And so
• 16:58
  Speaker 2: if you immobile one antenna or you cut one antenna,
• 17:03
  Speaker 2: and then you give them a really simple choice test
• 17:08
  Speaker 2: it's called a why ma, So you know, do you
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: turn left or right to get to the reward? Honey
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: bees were they couldn't do it if it was fixed,
• 17:17
  Speaker 2: and they couldn't do if it was if it was
• 17:19
  Speaker 2: cut and and so.
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: Like to say, so, just make sure I'm getting this.
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: I mean the same way stereo hearing.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Right, how do you no stereo stereo audition?
• 17:33
  Speaker 1: Yet I can close my stereo honey talks. I know
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: he's over here exactly right. If I didn't have two ears,
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: I would just know it would feel like an omnipresent sound.
• 17:43
  Speaker 1: That's right, not directional. Yeah, so you say it these
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: honey bees, You clip one and he can't tell if
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: the smells coming from left or right.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right, And so meanwhile, what's if you They
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: did it with slugs who have intenseles. You know, they
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: don't have antenna, but they've got tentacles. Exactly the same result.
• 18:04
  Speaker 2: They did it. They've done it with hermit crabs, which
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: have not hermit crabs they do. I think it was
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: lobsters because they have entennials and the same thing intent
• 18:14
  Speaker 2: of form things, and they cut it the same thing.
• 18:18
  Speaker 2: And then the really cool result was garter snakes, which
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: have you know, foked tongues. And it turns out the
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: FOURD tongue they take, yes, yes, and they if you
• 18:30
  Speaker 2: cut one timee of that FOURD tongue, they they are less.
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: They you know, they're slightly disoriented. If you give them
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: a simple task, like you know, left or right, they're
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: worse at it, you know. Yeah, and that's because what
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: they're doing is, you know, they are out there with
• 18:52
  Speaker 2: the tongue sampling airborne odors, and they pick it up
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: on the two times of that tongue, they bring it
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: back in. They're actually using a different old factory system
• 19:05
  Speaker 2: that's called the Vomer nasal system. And there's two pits
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: in the palette, the hard palate of the mouth, and
• 19:13
  Speaker 2: they bring the tying in and they literally pick up
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: with chemicals bringing it and they stick it into those pits.
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: No way, Yes, each little tongue, each prong has his
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: own little pit pit well.
• 19:23
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, and and.
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: They deliver it back into his mouth right exactly.
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: And that's what and if you see a snake do it,
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: that's exactly what a snake's doing. It's going check, you know, sample, sample, sample,
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: and then what is.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: It about that tongue business?
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, And is what's really cool is that these
• 19:45
  Speaker 2: evolutionary biologists, if you look at there's lizards, you know,
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: snakes are basically really just specialized lizards and they're lizards
• 19:53
  Speaker 2: that have forked tongues versus lizards that don't have a
• 19:57
  Speaker 2: don't have a forked tongue, and the lizards with four
• 20:00
  Speaker 2: tongues are more mobile, they're more predatory. They move it
• 20:03
  Speaker 2: for your speeds, all that kind of stuff. So it's
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: it's it's definitely.
• 20:08
  Speaker 1: Man, I didn't know that. Have you ever? I don't
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: know if you ever noticed this. If you're let's say,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: you'd like be walking around the woods, okay, or walking
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: down the road and you'll all of a sudden get
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: hit where you know there's something dead and rotten. Yeah, yeah,
• 20:23
  Speaker 1: it is so hard to find it.
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting, do.
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: You know, Like you're like, you know what I'm talking about, dude,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: something is dead, but you can't. You can't. It's it's
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: like it's like here in a high pitched noise, you
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: can't tell where it's coming from. You become aware something's.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: Dead somewhere right right right and that.
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: But I feel like if you have a dog with you,
• 20:44
  Speaker 1: that's some of bitches on that smell like in seconds,
• 20:47
  Speaker 1: like to him, it's not confusing.
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: Well, and it could be because we are really sensitive
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: to that smell. And so like you know, we're probably
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: like that that could be something that we are incredibly
• 20:59
  Speaker 2: sense and so it's all around us. But a dog,
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: I mean, is specialized to track location of scent. So
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: they've got a completely different Not only do they have
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: twice as many olfactory receptors as us, but they also
• 21:19
  Speaker 2: like inside the nose, they have a whole area where
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: when they're sniffing in it's it like like they open
• 21:29
  Speaker 2: up the front of their nose and it gets sucked
• 21:34
  Speaker 2: in and it goes straight to the old factory area.
• 21:37
  Speaker 2: It's really like there's a little corral that the air
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: comes in and boom, it goes right into that corral.
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: And we don't have that. Ours is kind of flat.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: So you know, we're never going to be as good
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: at localizing odor as a dog.
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: Got it. You know. Another one that hits you like
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: you can't tell where it's coming from real bad is
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: the smell of a skunk.
• 22:01
  Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting, and that's that's.
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: Just like it's everywhere, yeah, but nowhere.
• 22:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: And I have personal experience where I had I had
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: a like a cattle hyperdermit needle in my garage and
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: I had had some skunk essence in that thing, and
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: for weeks it was a family mystery. Why did the
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: whole garage smell like skunk? No, you could walk around
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: that garage all you want, and no one was able
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: to go like, oh, it's coming from right there. That's
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: it was just everywhere, all at once.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Well, I wonder if that's because it's so potent, like
• 22:39
  Speaker 2: we are so sulfur it were so sensitive to sulfur,
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: or if whatever that is, that it just needs one
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: molecule and it overwhelms you, and well you know so
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: and and how odor moves. It's it's mostly through it's
• 22:58
  Speaker 2: through air temperature actually, so convection and people. It's so
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: you can put like if you had skunk in a
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: room with vacuum seal, it wouldn't move at all. It
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: would stay in that one place. But as soon as
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: it's it's you've got higher than you've got wind, I
• 23:20
  Speaker 2: mean tiny amounts of temperature differences will will start winning
• 23:24
  Speaker 2: small wind movements. And so your garage you've got wind,
• 23:28
  Speaker 2: even though it doesn't feel like you've got air. Gimp
• 23:30
  Speaker 2: and so imagine that your nose only needs three molecules
• 23:35
  Speaker 2: of skunk to say there's a skunk, And every single
• 23:40
  Speaker 2: place in the garage has three molecules of skunk, so
• 23:43
  Speaker 2: there's just no way to find it, whereas the dog
• 23:47
  Speaker 2: is like, I mean, the other thing about odor is
• 23:50
  Speaker 2: that you habituate to it, and so then it becomes
• 23:53
  Speaker 2: a background. That and that then you can smell something.
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: You can smell the four ground.
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 24:01
  Speaker 2: And and in fact, when mice, the faster they smell,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: the more they could have like a smell they're looking for.
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: And the faster they smell, the more it separates the
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: foreground from the background. So when a dog it starts
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: looking for something, you know, they'll be sniffing really fast.
• 24:22
  Speaker 2: They they'll they'll be they're trying to discriminate, right, And
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: that's that's what they're doing. They're trying to you know,
• 24:28
  Speaker 2: background one set of smells and foreground you know the other.
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's funny, yeh. He's dog when he's got his
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: hound dog for that dog, Like if you set a
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: doffel bag in my house, I have like a little
• 24:44
  Speaker 1: mutt dog, it's going to be like not that it'll
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: give it a passing with uh huh. His dog basically
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: has to sit down and spend fifteen minutes on that
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: doffel bag. I mean, like, wow, every aspect of that
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: duffel bag that like explores it.
• 25:04
  Speaker 2: Wow.
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: It's like so even within that, even within dogs around
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: a separate Yeah, they're like these two dogs are on
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: a whole separate trip.
• 25:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what they like with what they're thinking and.
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: Doing absolutely and and a lot of that is breed,
• 25:21
  Speaker 2: you know, obviously that's why people have different breeds for
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: different kinds of hunting, but also personality and and and experience.
• 25:31
  Speaker 1: And you know, just something you don't think about personality experience.
• 25:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that This is actually a huge area now in
• 25:38
  Speaker 2: animal behavior is personality and showing that animals have different
• 25:44
  Speaker 2: personalities from the you know, and you can measure it
• 25:47
  Speaker 2: throughout an animal's lifetime and they will respond differently to
• 25:53
  Speaker 2: the same circums, the same situation.
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: Reliably, the same animal will respond to the animal.
• 26:00
  Speaker 2: The same animal respond like the animals who are actually
• 26:05
  Speaker 2: works done in chickadees who are bold, who explore more,
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: and then who the others who are cautious and who
• 26:13
  Speaker 2: explore more slowly. And as it's even genetically based, so
• 26:19
  Speaker 2: you can have a bold father and a cautious mother
• 26:23
  Speaker 2: and they will have chicks some of which are bold,
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: some of which are cautious. And depending on what the
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: food situation is that year, it might be that a
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: bold bird does better, and then you'll see the ones
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: with more bold chicks do better, and there's more bold
• 26:40
  Speaker 2: birds in the next generation.
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: Is then someone's got a house cat outside and the bold.
• 26:45
  Speaker 2: Birds right right right right, right right right, Hey?
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: What a what? Okay? When we smell like, it's all
• 26:59
  Speaker 1: through the air right or like you said, you taste it.
• 27:01
  Speaker 1: But what's going on when a fish smells something? Is
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: he smelling like yes, yes, is he tasting it or
• 27:06
  Speaker 1: smelling it? Or what is he doing well because it's
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: all in.
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: The water both, I mean both actually, Like you know,
• 27:11
  Speaker 2: fish have kind of have taste receptors all over their
• 27:14
  Speaker 2: body like catfish, so they can literally taste with their
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: whole body. That's different. They're really specialized, like something like
• 27:20
  Speaker 2: a catfish. They're real old factory.
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: Special Theoretically, take a catfish and hold his head out
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: of the water and put yeah, he dunk his body
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: in the water and he's conducting some smell type actata.
• 27:32
  Speaker 2: He's like delicious, Yeah, with.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: His head out of the way. I mean I know
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: that it wouldn't work.
• 27:37
  Speaker 2: But like, theoretically, theoretically, I think that right, because I mean,
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: I know and I think that's true of a lot
• 27:42
  Speaker 2: of I think goldfish, catfish, but their olfactory system is
• 27:47
  Speaker 2: incredibly good, and they I mean, we're basically fish, you know,
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: we never we have the same brain as a fish.
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: We have the same skeleton as a fish. We just
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: like you can take a fish skeletons and stretch it
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: and and you know, it looks like our skeleton is
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: not that different from a fish skeleton a four hundred
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: million years ago. So, and the brain everything, and and
• 28:12
  Speaker 2: and most of the brain, not the big cerebral cortex,
• 28:15
  Speaker 2: but most of the brain, most of the other things
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: in the brain that I've talked about, that's all. The
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: fish is all there before we left the water. So,
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: but fish, the big difference is bony fish have four nostrils,
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: so they've got two sets. They've got anterior and a posterior,
• 28:35
  Speaker 2: and so they've got water comes in through the anterior,
• 28:38
  Speaker 2: it goes through the old factory epithelium that's us up here,
• 28:42
  Speaker 2: that's where ours is goes through it and on the
• 28:45
  Speaker 2: top of the snout and then it comes out the
• 28:47
  Speaker 2: back and yeah, because they've got like four holes in
• 28:53
  Speaker 2: their in the top of their snout, so two are input,
• 28:56
  Speaker 2: two are output, and so they come in and goes out.
• 29:01
  Speaker 2: But what's different about fish is because they can smell
• 29:04
  Speaker 2: anything that can be dissolved in water. So you can
• 29:10
  Speaker 2: have like big molecules, huge things like peptides that fish
• 29:18
  Speaker 2: can suck in to their nostrils and they've got receptors
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: to to tell them what it is. And so you've
• 29:29
  Speaker 2: got aquatic animals like completely different olfactory receptors because they
• 29:36
  Speaker 2: can smell tiny things, big things, as long as it
• 29:39
  Speaker 2: can be dissolved in water and they can suck it in.
• 29:42
  Speaker 1: They can smell it anything water soluble.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: And then you get frogs which live, you know, both
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: in water and in the air, and they've got some
• 29:56
  Speaker 2: water you know, receptors and air receptors, and you look
• 30:01
  Speaker 2: at their.
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: Also, he can a frog can smell out of like
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: like a bullfrog and smell up in the air or
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: down in.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: The water right right, And they've got they've got like
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: a valve that they can close so that they can smell,
• 30:11
  Speaker 2: you know, one way or the other. And other animals
• 30:15
  Speaker 2: have done, like sea turtles can do that. But but
• 30:20
  Speaker 2: then when we came onto land, when you know, when
• 30:23
  Speaker 2: vertebrates came on to land, and then we never went back.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: You know, you can't what happens. And we became completely
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: land based terrestrial animals, right, and then we lost the
• 30:33
  Speaker 2: ability to smell things in water because you know, you
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: can't snuff up, you're not gonna smell anything the water.
• 30:41
  Speaker 2: And we became air specialists so once and so if
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: you look at the you know, the genome of land animals,
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: it went from the fish genome to the frog genome,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: which is kind of fifty to fifty, and then it
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: became that, you know, the land genome, which is all
• 30:58
  Speaker 2: air air jenes. And so that's when we became really
• 31:05
  Speaker 2: specialized for orienting only in air. And but that means
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: that our nose can only detect little molecules that are
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: volatile that are in the air. We can't detect big,
• 31:22
  Speaker 2: big molecules because guess what, they don't travel in the air.
• 31:28
  Speaker 2: So so what I what I realized was all these
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: other animals are using antenna for stereol faction and they
• 31:39
  Speaker 2: need it to orient. And it turns out that basically
• 31:44
  Speaker 2: what we've what this external rubbery mammal nose is is
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: a couple of tubes. And if you and the physicists
• 31:55
  Speaker 2: have shown that if you suck air through a tube fast,
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: what happens. It kind of acts like an antenna. So
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: an antenna is where you know you can if you're
• 32:10
  Speaker 2: on an orient in space, you want to have a
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: sample here in a sample here right, So you don't
• 32:14
  Speaker 2: want the samples close together. You want the fire apart.
• 32:17
  Speaker 2: And so if if you've got tubes on your face
• 32:21
  Speaker 2: and you suck in air fast, the air comes from
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: further away. It's just it's just they did this purely
• 32:29
  Speaker 2: with tubes physics. In my collaborator, John Carmaldi did this.
• 32:34
  Speaker 2: And so what I propose is that humans are basically
• 32:39
  Speaker 2: tube noses. And the other tube nose group is the seabirds,
• 32:46
  Speaker 2: albatross and the shearwaters. Those are called literally the tube nosed.
• 32:52
  Speaker 2: Prosolariforms are called tube nose seabirds. And those seabirds like
• 32:58
  Speaker 2: petrels Albert crosses, they are specialized. They spent most of
• 33:03
  Speaker 2: their life in the air looking for you know, food
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: on the ocean, which is like as gabby Nevid says
• 33:13
  Speaker 2: likenedl and haystack. And the way they orient, and she's
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: done work on this, is they orient to a smell.
• 33:20
  Speaker 2: So there's when krill eat phytoplankton, they emit die sulfide.
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: What was it?
• 33:29
  Speaker 2: Anyway, they met a sulfur compound and the birds can
• 33:34
  Speaker 2: detect that from far away and then they come in
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: because yes, and that means because the krill means that's
• 33:40
  Speaker 2: where they're going to find fish and and food.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Kidding, they can smell krill under the water somewhere by
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: what's coming up.
• 33:49
  Speaker 2: By what's it's being released. Yeah, it's a it's a
• 33:53
  Speaker 2: it's a disulfide compound.
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: What it is I won't I won't have heard of it.
• 33:57
  Speaker 2: No, it's methyl diceol. I'm just trying to show off
• 33:59
  Speaker 2: my my chemistry, which is like kind I can't just
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: remember that one. It's methyldized SULFI. No, it's and and birds. Actually,
• 34:09
  Speaker 2: there's studies now in seagulls and homing pigeons and little
• 34:14
  Speaker 2: songbirds that if you block their olfactory system they are disoriented. Yes, yes, no,
• 34:21
  Speaker 2: it's and birds. And you know up and people saying
• 34:25
  Speaker 2: that doesn't make sense, but then you know there's atmospheric
• 34:29
  Speaker 2: winds that are carrying odor from like continents, which is
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: actually a lot of information.
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: Oh, you can find his way back to land. Right.
• 34:38
  Speaker 2: So so anyway, so there's the tube nosed birds. And
• 34:41
  Speaker 2: so what I proposed is humans are the tube no apes.
• 34:45
  Speaker 2: We you know, we were the only ape that have
• 34:47
  Speaker 2: this thing. And and then since there's been studies showing that, yeah,
• 34:51
  Speaker 2: if you block one nostril with humans, when if you
• 34:57
  Speaker 2: if you blindfold them and put the to track a
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: coconut I mean a chocolate trail across some grass that
• 35:08
  Speaker 2: if you block one nostril or you swap the inputs
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: to the off, they put a big mask that either
• 35:15
  Speaker 2: blocks one or swaps that. This with nome Soaples work
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: at Berkeley was great work that the humans are disoriented.
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and so humans can orient just like a dog,
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: you know, to a trail, I mean they can track.
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: And then Ken Cantanyon did this work with moles where
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: he put tubes in their star nosed moles and he
• 35:37
  Speaker 2: put little tubes in their nose and all they had
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: to do was, you know, move a few centimeter to
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: find an earthworm. And if you block one two or
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: if you cross the tube, so you've got the inputs
• 35:52
  Speaker 2: coming cross completely disoriented. The mole is just like walking
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: over the earthworm and can't mind it. So that shows
• 36:01
  Speaker 2: you that it's not just the amount of data that's
• 36:06
  Speaker 2: coming in, it's where is it coming in on the
• 36:08
  Speaker 2: left of the right. So it's just like you were
• 36:10
  Speaker 2: saying about your ears, I'm.
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: Gonna be walking through the woods navigating in a whole
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: different sense here in two weeks when September kicks off.
• 36:22
  Speaker 2: You know, I would.
• 36:23
  Speaker 1: Here's the deal though about the birds, uh a lot,
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: Like if you're hunting a lot of stuff, you need
• 36:33
  Speaker 1: to be very aware of the wind because you got
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: to come in from now when girls is gonna smell you.
• 36:40
  Speaker 1: But when you know no one plays the wind with turkeys.
• 36:46
  Speaker 2: Well that but but turkey actually, well turkey vultures are
• 36:49
  Speaker 2: really good sense.
• 36:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's no maybe it's just a thing people miss.
• 36:55
  Speaker 1: There's no sense of needing to hide from a turkey's.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: Nose, that's right, and and that's probably true though.
• 37:00
  Speaker 1: Oh you think that is true.
• 37:01
  Speaker 2: Well, there's more work now. Birds, little songbirds they avoid
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: nest holes that have if you put a predator odor
• 37:07
  Speaker 2: in there. There's work work now about mate choice and
• 37:11
  Speaker 2: birds even like zebra finches, little desert birds that are
• 37:15
  Speaker 2: choosing mates based on odor.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: So you think it's possible that a turkey could smell.
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: You, Oh, but I think it's it's I think vision
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: and old faction. We all have. We all have both,
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: and it and what you use depends on who you
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: are and the context. And so turkey has got such
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: great incredible vision, you know, color vision, incredible acuity and hearing,
• 37:39
  Speaker 2: you know, and they're probably getting ninety percent of their
• 37:44
  Speaker 2: But I bet I wonder if there, if there isn't.
• 37:48
  Speaker 1: Some that'd be some good study for you to work on.
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: Is can a turkey get a whiff of a person? Yes, yeah,
• 37:56
  Speaker 1: and change its course because it winded you and we
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: are we assume that they have no ability to catch
• 38:04
  Speaker 1: your wind.
• 38:05
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I would say it's it, you know, it isn't
• 38:09
  Speaker 2: no ability. It's kind of like if you look at
• 38:12
  Speaker 2: like David next work on the wolves. They start by
• 38:18
  Speaker 2: its old factory, and then at some point they you know,
• 38:23
  Speaker 2: they they know from the concentration that they're right on,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: they're very close, and then they're gonna switch to vision.
• 38:30
  Speaker 2: And I'm sure you know this from your your you
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: know your dogs that so it's not like they don't
• 38:34
  Speaker 2: have one or the other. And and sighthounds, of course
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: are going to be more visual because they're big, open
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: plain desert breeds, right, so it's gonna vision makes more
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: sense than old faction because when things are dry, that's
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: you know, that's bad for old faction. Old faction. You
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: want you want it cold and and well actually warm
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: of humid is perfect, but definitely humid.
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: And yeah, we know, I'm looking at him to see
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: if this clicks with with houndsman.
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: Lower Well, yeah, I'm and I'm I'm just reserved because
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: I don't know if we're gonna are we get it.
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: We're gonna get get into the hounds and stuff before
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: we get to the hound, no question. I think we've
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: we had this one. And just when we were discussing
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: having Lucia on. But like does a speaking of animals
• 39:28
  Speaker 3: and their relationship to you know, wind and smelling each
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: other and the predator prey relationship. Does a predator like
• 39:35
  Speaker 3: a mountain lion, know that it emits an odor and
• 39:40
  Speaker 3: thus it has to be downwind when it's approaching a
• 39:44
  Speaker 3: prey animal.
• 39:45
  Speaker 2: They play the absolutely absolutely they I mean, because they're
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: incredibly I mean they're you know, mountain lions are very different.
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, felids are gonna use odor less than canids.
• 39:57
  Speaker 2: So so wolf, wolf coyote is going to be using
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: odor very differently than a mountain lion, which is an
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: ambush predator. So they're they're going to be up and
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: perch right, going to ambush that they're going to use odor,
• 40:11
  Speaker 2: and they're going to certainly be aware of their own odor.
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, oh yeah, I mean, I mean, we live
• 40:17
  Speaker 2: in this. I was just thinking this about this. It's
• 40:21
  Speaker 2: like the odor Internet. You know, the world is is
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: basically an odor landscape that we're we're stupid about. But
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: all these other animals, they, i mean, the plants have
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: got their own odors. The plants are communicating, the animals are,
• 40:39
  Speaker 2: you know, communicating, and and what's what's it's actually interesting
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: is that sometimes predator odor is actually attractive to a
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: prey animal because they recognize that is not a scary,
• 40:56
  Speaker 2: that that predator is not a problem because I know
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: that predator and so I'm gonna, you know, I'll be attracted.
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: I'm going to get more information by spending more time
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: with that predator. And so you can do the same
• 41:07
  Speaker 2: experiment where that another individual is like, no, no, I'm
• 41:11
  Speaker 2: I'm a little smaller and that's a dangerous predator to me.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: So if I smell that, I'm going to be out
• 41:15
  Speaker 2: of here. But what was that? There was a study
• 41:18
  Speaker 2: this is insane in great kangaroos in Australia that were
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: they gave them, and which are like sixty sixty one
• 41:28
  Speaker 2: hundred pounds animals. You know, they're big right there. If
• 41:33
  Speaker 2: you just a naive one was not at all put
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: off by the smell of a Tasmanian devil, which is,
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: you know, an aggressive carnivar. It's much smaller, but it's aggressive.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: But if you gave them Tasmanian devil scent, they they
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: didn't avoid it. This is like an experimental situation. But
• 41:56
  Speaker 2: if you gave them the scent of Tasmanian devil who
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: had eaten ray kangaroo, it was incredibly aversive. So the wait, really, yes,
• 42:05
  Speaker 2: the kangaroo.
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: Knew he's smelling that little combo.
• 42:09
  Speaker 2: That that predator, that twelve kilogram predator eats me, and
• 42:15
  Speaker 2: therefore I'm going to avoid that predator. And they didn't before.
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: So I mean that's the kind of information that is
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: in scent.
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: Okay, but see people, there have been hunters that have
• 42:27
  Speaker 3: tried to switch over to a vegetarian diet.
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: That's interesting. Yeah, dad, my dad had a buddy. My
• 42:36
  Speaker 1: dad had a buddy. They would eat all kinds of apples,
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: you drink all kinds of apple juice before both.
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: But I think that was so that when they would ye,
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: they would make a scent that would be attractive to deer, being.
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: Apples seeming like a not meat. Yeah, he's right about that.
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: He would just seem like, how long would it take
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: for me to eat a completely I don't know, vegetarian.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: Diegan for two months? No, no, I mean.
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: Deer right until deer be like, oh no, worries, worry
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: about that guy.
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: You know, you also have you know, in general, if
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: one per human is not eating eating me, but everybody
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: else is, you know, they might say, you know what,
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: I'm just going.
• 43:23
  Speaker 3: To be it's not an individual basis.
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: But you know, that's an interesting that's an interesting question.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: I think if you had if you were tracking one
• 43:32
  Speaker 2: particular deer, like you know, just you had an individual
• 43:35
  Speaker 2: relationship and then you you went vegan for six months
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know how you know, people do
• 43:43
  Speaker 2: these experiments, you know, like how longs it take for
• 43:46
  Speaker 2: you to be able to smell garlic on your breath
• 43:48
  Speaker 2: or something human eating? I mean, I it comes out,
• 43:50
  Speaker 2: you know, all that everything you're eating is coming out
• 43:53
  Speaker 2: through your skin. Apparently this actually I read that that
• 43:58
  Speaker 2: in Vietnam War, the viet Cong could smell American troops
• 44:02
  Speaker 2: coming in because they smelled like as what they said,
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: spoiled milk, because they were cheese eaters, and that wasn't
• 44:09
  Speaker 2: in the knees culkine.
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: My dad, My dad said that he was in World
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: War two. He said, the smell of Germans and make
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: the hair on the back of his next stand up.
• 44:20
  Speaker 1: But he thought was this. He thought they had a
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: kind of cigarette. Uh huh, uh huh, and they had,
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: you know, the crowd, the whole crowd thing, right. He
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: thought they had a kind of cigarette and he could
• 44:29
  Speaker 1: smell that cigarette. And he said to make the hair
• 44:32
  Speaker 1: on his next stand up. And he said he could
• 44:33
  Speaker 1: smell their food and make the hair on the back.
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: And he said, if you walked into the building, yeah,
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: like when you were pushing them out and you came
• 44:40
  Speaker 1: into the buildings that they were in. He said it
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: was just like the like the worst because just the association.
• 44:47
  Speaker 2: The association, right, that's right, that's right. No, that's well,
• 44:51
  Speaker 2: that's why. And I bet you know, forty years later,
• 44:55
  Speaker 2: I bet you if you could bottle that smell and
• 44:57
  Speaker 2: give it to him, he would immediately be back in
• 45:01
  Speaker 2: that in that situation. I mean, this is why.
• 45:03
  Speaker 1: Oh he never, yeah, he never. I can tell you
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: that his hatred stayed through life, so it would have
• 45:09
  Speaker 1: been a bad smell.
• 45:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, bad smell right right, No, I mean, oh, factory PTSD,
• 45:14
  Speaker 2: you know, people, real real thing, you know, combat smells
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: and things like that.
• 45:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, before we do our hound dog chapter, I got
• 45:21
  Speaker 1: I got a I got another dear question for you,
• 45:24
  Speaker 1: well to deer questions, would it makes sense? And you're
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: in a weird position now where you're giving like hunting advice,
• 45:31
  Speaker 1: like do you picture a world in which you like,
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: a world in which you acclimated, like like Yanni has
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: a property in Wisconsin, the family place they like the
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: deer on is there a world in which you somehow
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: broadcast throughout the year, you had a canister that just
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: broadcasts human odor, so that the landscape was just a
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: washing human odor throughout the year, and that you would
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: create a scenario where deer were just that was just
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: what the area smelled like, and they would never and
• 46:09
  Speaker 1: then when they smell the person, it just didn't matter
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: because the area was constantly awashed. Like he hung all
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: his clothes and stuff in a tree and just had
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: to be that that tree just smells that way, and
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: then it would be that later when you're there, they
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: wouldn't even know because it always smells that way.
• 46:32
  Speaker 2: The thing is that they it's you're going to walk
• 46:36
  Speaker 2: in and they're gonna say, oh, there's the guy who
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: atea hamburger yesterday. It's a fresh scent.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: You know, it's not like you're never gonna like because
• 46:46
  Speaker 1: they're picking it apart too much.
• 46:48
  Speaker 2: But I mean, at the same time, you know, you
• 46:50
  Speaker 2: go to like Galapagos Islands where they've never had predators.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: You walk up to any animal and and you know
• 46:57
  Speaker 2: it's cultural. I mean, whether or not they're afraid of
• 47:01
  Speaker 2: a friend who study elephants and they the massill used
• 47:06
  Speaker 2: a certain kind of you know, clayed. It was kind
• 47:10
  Speaker 2: of a decoration, but it would you know, had a
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: scent and as soon as an elephant smelled that they
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: were out there because the MUSSI were you know, elephant hunters.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: So I mean it's association. Now, what you could do
• 47:24
  Speaker 2: is I mean if you say that you there was
• 47:27
  Speaker 2: something like that the deer liked that they that was
• 47:31
  Speaker 2: their favorite food or something like that, and and you
• 47:34
  Speaker 2: put you could do an association between your scent and
• 47:38
  Speaker 2: their favorite food. You could maybe counter condition it so
• 47:44
  Speaker 2: that they're going, oh, that's good. You know, that's that's
• 47:46
  Speaker 2: a good thing, that's a good particularly. But you know,
• 47:50
  Speaker 2: the first time one deer sees you with a gun
• 47:55
  Speaker 2: and gives that signal, it's all over, you know, because
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: all the other deer are gonna because your scent is
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: around and the other deer is around. I mean no,
• 48:06
  Speaker 2: And you can there's there's animals have to learn, you know,
• 48:12
  Speaker 2: sometimes who predators are, and that's been shown in ferrets
• 48:15
  Speaker 2: that they you know, they have to they learn like
• 48:18
  Speaker 2: the first time they have a bad experience or they
• 48:21
  Speaker 2: see another adult with a bad experience, they go, Okay,
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: that's predator. I didn't know. Now I do, and I'm
• 48:27
  Speaker 2: never going to forget that. Yeah, And you can do
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: there's like the study of blackbirds in Europe where they
• 48:36
  Speaker 2: the naive bird in the lab never heard and never
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: seen a predator. And then you have another blackbird and
• 48:45
  Speaker 2: you have a stuffed owl, and the one whose experience
• 48:48
  Speaker 2: sees the owl gives an alarm call. And it only
• 48:51
  Speaker 2: takes one trial for the bird who has never seen
• 48:54
  Speaker 2: an owl to see the owl and go, oh, that's
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: a predator. And from the rest of us, you know,
• 49:00
  Speaker 2: with them and season OL, it's going to give an
• 49:02
  Speaker 2: alarm call. And every time it gives an alarm call,
• 49:04
  Speaker 2: a naive birds going to see what's it looking at OL,
• 49:07
  Speaker 2: that's an ol and you can and they did. And
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: then they took away the owl and they put a
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: milk bottle there and they trained and they like played
• 49:18
  Speaker 2: the alarm call to a milk bottle and the bird
• 49:22
  Speaker 2: in the lab says, oh, that's a predator and really yes,
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: And they.
• 49:27
  Speaker 1: Trained to think that a milk bottle was troubled.
• 49:29
  Speaker 2: They hear you know, they hear that that. It's like
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: all they need is a call. And so they did
• 49:34
  Speaker 2: that for seven generations, training, you know, blackbirds to be
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: afraid of milk bottles. So I mean, it's it's the
• 49:40
  Speaker 2: same thing an odor is that's crazy.
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: Then you got like you got like generations of birds
• 49:46
  Speaker 1: that they've never seen a milk bottle do anything bad,
• 49:49
  Speaker 1: but they just carry it with them that a milk bottle.
• 49:51
  Speaker 2: Is no good because you know, the thing is, if
• 49:55
  Speaker 2: that's information, you don't want to have to learn by
• 49:58
  Speaker 2: trial and error. If you've got someone in your population
• 50:00
  Speaker 2: says that's a predator dangerous, it's like good enough for me,
• 50:04
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean it takes a lot. So all
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: the deer in in your property, they already have know
• 50:10
  Speaker 2: very much that humans are. You know, you've got a
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: human odor. They also know that your male. They also
• 50:17
  Speaker 2: know what you're eating, they know your stress level, They
• 50:20
  Speaker 2: probably know if you've got a cold. I mean, all
• 50:22
  Speaker 2: that is right in your signature. So you can't escape.
• 50:28
  Speaker 1: So on this not on the deer chapter. We're here,
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: let's stay the deer chapter. So let me hit me
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: a couple like, uh, let me hit me a couple
• 50:36
  Speaker 1: of things that are sort of that float around and
• 50:38
  Speaker 1: hunter legend. Okay, One is that there's this product that
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: was on the landscape for a long time. What was
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: this idea that you could wear certain clothing mm hmm
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: with like what is the carbon's charcoal. You could wear
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: this charcoal impregnated what exactly carbon carbon? You could put
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: a clothes.
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: On, Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, and.
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: Deer wouldn't know you were there. Do you buy that?
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: I mean, most of your odors are coming out of
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: your hair, and I mean so to humans. That's the
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: other thing. Humans, we are more scent glands than any
• 51:19
  Speaker 2: other grade ape. We are the smelly ape. So we've
• 51:23
  Speaker 2: got and they're all concentrated in our hair and our
• 51:27
  Speaker 2: armpits growing. So we are just you know, we're just
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: walking bags of scent. So if you're gonna wear anything
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: carbon blocking, you definitely want to be wearing a full
• 51:41
  Speaker 2: head hood.
• 51:41
  Speaker 1: I think the head neck.
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah, oh yeah, oh yeah.
• 51:44
  Speaker 1: So there's that. There's some that makes some that makes
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: like a little bit of sense to you.
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: It makes a little bit of sense.
• 51:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, there's another one that you do.
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: But I can I just say that. I bet it depends.
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: It wouldn't take much for a deer to realize, oh,
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: that's a carbon sense and it comes with a gun,
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: and then all they associate this expensive suit with a hunter,
• 52:07
  Speaker 2: and so.
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: Can you explain what's going on? There is a scent
• 52:10
  Speaker 3: being eliminated. Is the scent being masked.
• 52:13
  Speaker 2: Is well, it's I mean you're masking the human body odor.
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: Maybe you're not masking and you're not masking the face.
• 52:20
  Speaker 3: You're not like removing it. Because I think the whole
• 52:23
  Speaker 3: thing about what this carbon technology was it somehow it
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: was soaking it up.
• 52:28
  Speaker 2: I mean it would be soaking it up. I mean
• 52:29
  Speaker 2: but on the inside, yeah, I mean it would be
• 52:31
  Speaker 2: like a filter. But but for one thing, if you've
• 52:36
  Speaker 2: got any exposed skin, you're constantly emitting, sure, you know volatiles,
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: but also the suit itself has an odor, right, I
• 52:44
  Speaker 2: mean it's not the outside of the suit is not odorless.
• 52:47
  Speaker 2: And so all you need is for one deer to
• 52:49
  Speaker 2: figure out that suit smell means a hunter, and then
• 52:55
  Speaker 2: that deer to give an alarm call to a suit,
• 52:58
  Speaker 2: and then all the other deer note that suit is
• 53:00
  Speaker 2: a predator. So I mean, I mean you have to
• 53:03
  Speaker 2: do some experiments on this.
• 53:05
  Speaker 1: But yeah, there's another there's another one that goes like, uh,
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: you create you put a natural odor down in such
• 53:14
  Speaker 1: enormous quantity. Like let's say you take like a they
• 53:18
  Speaker 1: call it like a masking scent. Okay, take something like, well,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: it's not offensive to deer, but it smells strong. So
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: let's say like a female the urine from a female
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: deer it's in heat, like it's attractive, but also it's
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: super powerful. Right, he won't be the deer won't be
• 53:39
  Speaker 1: able to find my.
• 53:40
  Speaker 2: Smell right right, right right, that is applied in the voice.
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: I'll drown it with this odor and he won't be
• 53:47
  Speaker 1: able to pick my odor out from this overpowering odor
• 53:50
  Speaker 1: that I'm putting here.
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: Vanilla has been popular lately, Like it's this overpowering vanilla
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: that's interesting.
• 53:58
  Speaker 2: Vanilla is very interesting. I just want to say, it's
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: kind of like the skunk in the garage. It could
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: be that the male the buck is so sensitive to
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: female you know, in in heat that that it just
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: addles his brain and no, but man, that that that
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: he he's got to be tracking females across huge distances, right,
• 54:16
  Speaker 2: so he's going to be incredibly sensitive to that. So
• 54:19
  Speaker 2: if you so it's so so, that would be an
• 54:24
  Speaker 2: odor that you might be able to just overwhelm his
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: system because his unless his brain habituates him. Well he does,
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: but then he there's no female here, and then then
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: it turns into background. It's like people who live next
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: to pig farms, they don't they can't smell it after
• 54:42
  Speaker 2: what you know, and they go away and and then
• 54:45
  Speaker 2: there's there's like people study this because you know, there's
• 54:48
  Speaker 2: lawsuits about pig farms. And I think if you go
• 54:52
  Speaker 2: away for a couple of years, you come back, you
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: can smell it again because you've got you know, like turnover.
• 54:57
  Speaker 3: It happens to me every time our water the house
• 55:00
  Speaker 3: is pretty soul free. Yeah, if I'm gone for a week,
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: my first shower back, I'm like, whoa, yeah, exactly, second shower,
• 55:07
  Speaker 3: it's just like normal situated right right right.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: So so, but it was.
• 55:12
  Speaker 1: Never mind the dough and p thing. Then let's take vanilla.
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: Vanilla. Vanilla.
• 55:16
  Speaker 1: You would put a smell down and you'd be like
• 55:19
  Speaker 1: just just wall of smell. Yeah, and it would hide
• 55:23
  Speaker 1: the human part.
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: Well, vanilla is interesting because it actually smells like milk,
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: mammalian milk from like human milk. This this has been like,
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: that's problem. Maybe one reason we're all attracted to manilla vanilla.
• 55:39
  Speaker 2: That's just interesting. The vanilla is universally considered a very
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: pleasant odor in human cultures. But yeah, so I I
• 55:48
  Speaker 2: mean again, you know it's it's also the problem is
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: you're hunting for dinner and they are trying to save
• 55:54
  Speaker 2: their life, So you've got completely different motivation. Sure, and
• 55:58
  Speaker 2: they're going to be much more concerned unless unless they're
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: there's some reason they're not going to be because there's they're
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: really just speak to the mechanics of the mechanics.
• 56:10
  Speaker 1: Like, could you put from from an animal standpoint, never mind, dear,
• 56:14
  Speaker 1: just like an animal man overwhelmed? Could you overwhelm them
• 56:18
  Speaker 1: so much with one odor that they're not finding another?
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: Or like let's say this. Let's say I'm baking a
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: pizza in my oven, but then I take an ounce
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: of skunk smell and pour it on the counter. You're
• 56:31
  Speaker 1: not going to come in and be like, oh, I
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: see all the skunk, but I get a little pizza too.
• 56:39
  Speaker 1: You're just getting skunk. So is it theoretically possible that
• 56:45
  Speaker 1: you would replicate that scenario and have it be that
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: you're putting out so much vanilla or piss or whatever, yeah,
• 56:53
  Speaker 1: or zucchini bread that that a deer is like all
• 56:58
  Speaker 1: I'm getting is zucchini bread.
• 56:59
  Speaker 2: No, I think it's possible at the same time, that's
• 57:02
  Speaker 2: an area they wouldn't want to hang out in because
• 57:03
  Speaker 2: it's too dangerous, because you're just making them odor blind
• 57:06
  Speaker 2: and that's their And you know, when I've studied kangaroo rats,
• 57:11
  Speaker 2: we radio transmitted, you know, and track them in the desert.
• 57:15
  Speaker 2: It was so interesting. On a windy night, the kangarots
• 57:18
  Speaker 2: will not come out of their burrows. And I think
• 57:20
  Speaker 2: it's yeah, and and I think it's it was because
• 57:23
  Speaker 2: I mean, partly it's the sound is but I think
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: it's I think it's odor. It's like you've got turbulent
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: suddenly they don't know where the coyotes are and and
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: so I think of deer. I bet him a very
• 57:36
  Speaker 2: windy day. So what's your hotly debated Okay, that's interesting
• 57:41
  Speaker 2: is where.
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: If ELK as an ELK guide for a decade. Yeah,
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: we definitely felt like extreme wind conditions would sort of
• 57:48
  Speaker 3: would would settle the movement.
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: A little bit. Deer, But here's the here's where this
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: gets tricky. They got deer on collars. Yeah, yeah, next
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: to the eye of her that are like twenty miles
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: from the eye of hurricane and they don't change tune
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: at all. Well, it depends like they go about their business.
• 58:04
  Speaker 2: Yeah, but see, so I always say again context where
• 58:08
  Speaker 2: you know, is that wind coming in reliably laminar from
• 58:12
  Speaker 2: one direction or is it like you know, turbulent. So
• 58:15
  Speaker 2: a hurricane is one thing, but I mean they're actually
• 58:20
  Speaker 2: if there's a study of blue crabs orienting to odors
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: in in in in streams, artificial streams, they are more
• 58:29
  Speaker 2: they're more accurate orienting to in turbulent streams than than
• 58:36
  Speaker 2: laminar flow because they are adapted to their whole evolution
• 58:41
  Speaker 2: has been life is turbulent. And so I met, I
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: mean it depends where it is, like if if they're
• 58:47
  Speaker 2: in a windy habitat that they they know how wind
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: works and they've learned about it. Versus a forest Elkimore forest. Now,
• 58:56
  Speaker 2: actually that's not true, right, and they are more open
• 58:59
  Speaker 2: white tail anymore more closed. But you know, you imagine
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: a forest animal where it's not expecting a lot of
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: wind movement would be more freaked out by Well, I.
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: Think both those animals, elk and deer, live in a
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: wide variety of habitats. Both could be open or closed,
• 59:15
  Speaker 3: and probably the one that lives up on near Shoto,
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: Montana on the uh what they call that the Rocky
• 59:23
  Speaker 3: Mountain front where the wind blows a lot. Yeah, they
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: like learn to figure out a way to deal with it,
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: right and use their olfactory senses deal with it. But
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: when the wind blows like that in Wisconsin, maybe the
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: deer lay low a little bit, you know.
• 59:37
  Speaker 1: What works best for them from a from a predator perspective,
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: like a human predator perspective.
• 59:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, they are.
• 59:42
  Speaker 1: At a huge advantage in a swirling wind.
• 59:46
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, huge interesting.
• 59:47
  Speaker 1: Oh and I mean people just be like a swirling wind,
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: you're like, never mind, oh.
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: Because they no matter what you do, they can smell you.
• 59:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, you're not.
• 59:55
  Speaker 1: I could get up on them in a non like.
• 59:57
  Speaker 1: What you want is a what a predator want is
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 1: a very strong west wind, like a consistent west Like Okay,
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 1: I know exactly what I'm gonna do when you get there,
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: and it's like hitting this cheek and then you start
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 1: in the back of your neck. Happen, right, and so
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: you know everything that's going on.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: And I bet that's why this is so controversial, because
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: I bet everyone's reporting different things based on where they
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: are with different wind conditions. And you've got you know,
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: animals adapted to local wind conditions, and so sure in
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 2: Wisconsin it's this, but in that great you know that
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 2: place where the rocky mountains are, it's that. And so everyone,
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 2: the deer are going to have different strategies. They're going
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: to learn different The fawns are going to learn from
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: the parents. You know, it's all I mean, there are
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: long lived animals, social animals, so there's a massive amount
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: of social learning going on. I'm sure they're learning from
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 2: the adults in.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 1: Our mind, Like in our mind, what they like is
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 1: without being able to interview them. Speaking of a deer, white,
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: let's say what he likes. He likes an obstruction to
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: his back, yeah, huh okay, something behind him. Yeah, he
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 1: can see out here. Yeah, and he's in a spot
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 1: that has swirling wind. Like in our mind, that's like.
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: Where he's that's interesting.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 1: Then he's like his chill.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 2: So this is what you do. You set up artificial
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 2: swirling wind on your property and all the deer come
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 2: in and they love it, and it's swirling wind, and
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 2: then you go out just turn it off.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: It's big bucks galore. Okay, now we're gonna move into
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 1: the hound dog chat.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 3: It's like a very like big box, like very expensive
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 3: to set that up circulating system forty acres.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: You know.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 3: All right, you're ready for hound questions.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: This is the hound dog chapter, the anticipated hound dog chat.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: I don't know if these are in order, but we'll
• 1:01:49
  Speaker 3: just start with what we have for fifty one. Yeah,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: well let's start with the cold nosed dog and the
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: hot nose dog. And I think the nay explain that.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, basically, a dog that hot is like a
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: recent trail and the cold is like it's been there
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: for a while.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: Yeah. There are dogs out there that are in the
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: same pack. Yeah that one will see find a mountain
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 3: lion track. Yeah, but it is old enough to where
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 3: they smell it and they just no reaction whatsoever that
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 3: we can see.
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they know, and they keep going.
• 1:02:27
  Speaker 3: Another dog in the same pack goes over there that
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: has the cold nose, yeah, and gets on it, and yeah,
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 3: here it starts and they're off to the races. And
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 3: it could be some people think that they run it.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: They don't like that because they're running a three day
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 3: old track and you know, the lion could be you
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: don't know, it could be in two counties over right, anyways.
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: But so but what causes that?
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: So, I mean definitely you said nature nurture, that's definitely both.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, you're gonna have different personalities. Dogs obviously have
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 2: different personalities and they have different experiences. And so you've
• 1:03:00
  Speaker 2: got a dog who has successfully been paying attention to cold,
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: and and what's cold is you know, you've got all
• 1:03:08
  Speaker 2: this dead skin falling down. You've got all this I mean,
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: the heavy molecules that are falling off you and the
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 2: mountain lion, and it's all falling into onto the trail.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 2: And the more the heavier the molecules are, and the
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: more the trail has texture to it. It's not like
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 2: a you know, a rock surface, but it's like you know, grasses, vegetation,
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 2: that kind of stuff that's going to hold those big,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: heavy molecules longer.
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: And so it's going to be it grabs on.
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 2: To them, It grabs onto it there. Yeah, literally you
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: know has placed for it the other thing that I mean.
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: And so so there's going to be a lot of
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 2: signal there. And that might be a dog who's had
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 2: a good lot of good experiences with that on that cold,
• 1:04:00
  Speaker 2: on that and it could be.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: Like before, right, He's like, I've picked up smell this.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: And exactly, and that's a huge positive reinforcement. You know,
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 2: it's like that dog is going to remember. The Other
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 2: thing about old faction memory is that there you know,
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 2: we don't forget odors, and dogs don't forget odors, and
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: they I mean that the odor comes into the brain,
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: it goes right to your emotional centers, and so even
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: in humans, you know, odors are encoded really deeply and emotionally.
• 1:04:33
  Speaker 2: So I mean, so that's why I can give you
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 2: the smell of your grandmother's kitchen and you can you know,
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: you recognize it. And so anyway, so you can have
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: a dog that had a really good experience catching, you know,
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: doing succeeding on a hunt using those heavy molecules and so.
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 2: And also it could be like I said about the chickadees,
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 2: this would be exactly the same thing and be a
• 1:04:56
  Speaker 2: really interesting study to do, to study a pack that
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 2: had these different personalities, because it could be that you've
• 1:05:03
  Speaker 2: got kind of an adhd dog that just wants to
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: you know, trail nose in the air, and the other
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: one's like, no, I'm kind of quiet. I've got two dogs,
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 2: two MutS and ones. The ones you know absolutely will
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: jump on anything, and the other one's slow and actually
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 2: learns faster because he doesn't jump on things. You know,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 2: he will learn a problem faster. And so you could
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 2: have a slow, deliberate personality that say, you know what,
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 2: I am going to specialize in these heavy molecules.
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: And I'm assuming you're gonna tell me that it could
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: be nature or nurture, like it could be passed down
• 1:05:39
  Speaker 3: through generations in their genes because they succeeded running cold tracks.
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 3: And then you could also teach that to a dog.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think you've got you know, probably
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: you've got a you know, a little puppies. You might
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: have cold you know, future cold nose, future hot nose
• 1:06:04
  Speaker 2: in the in the litter. But then depending on their experience,
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 2: how they're trained, what they're you know, did they have
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 2: a really good experience using that strategy, then there you know,
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: then what they're going to do. I mean, what any
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 2: predator would do is that they keep working on that.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: You know, they get better and better and the rich
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 2: get richer, right, and then and then another dog it's like,
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 2: well that never worked for me, or I had one
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 2: frustrating thing. I lost it. I'm gonna whereas I I
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 2: trail and I pick up. You know, I do this
• 1:06:34
  Speaker 2: fast sniffing in the air, and I'm that works for me,
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 2: so I'm going to do that. But it could be that.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: I mean interesting to ask your people, like what else
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: do those dogs vary about? Like, you know, are there
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: what else are they doing?
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 1: You know?
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 2: Do they do they rush the gate? Does this one?
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 1: You know, let's say you're like, I SS like you
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 1: got a cold nose and hot and no dog? Where
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: you put them all in a situation where they're like
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 1: a minute behind it? Are they do they still have
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: different attitudes?
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 1: Or do they kind of like coalesce around some level
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: of excitement yeah?
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah?
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: Or is he always like no and you giving easy.
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 2: Or you give them a problem they've never seen before.
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 2: You know, there's a lot of work now on you know,
• 1:07:20
  Speaker 2: problem solving in dogs and how do they how do
• 1:07:22
  Speaker 2: they tackle it? You know, do they do they have
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 2: different strategies to tackle it? I bet? I bet the
• 1:07:28
  Speaker 2: cold hot nose is like it is like just a
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 2: signature of maybe differences in like overall problem solving strategy.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 2: And that's what that's what you That's what we talked
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 2: when we talked about animal behavioral syndrome or personality. It's
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 2: like a lifelong way of attract of attacking a problem. Basically,
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: I got.
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: A buddy who's got a beagle and his dog's like,
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: his dog's a blood trailer, so it can find a
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: wounded deer.
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:07:55
  Speaker 1: And one day we put it on a deer and
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 1: it knew the path like one hundred percent because we
• 1:08:00
  Speaker 1: need to pass you because we lost the blood trail.
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 1: But the dog just lost interest and he said he
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 1: knows he won't find it. Oh really yeah. So it's
• 1:08:11
  Speaker 1: like it's like he knew where it went, but he's
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: like he knows he'll never find the way.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 3: That was explained to me because I called out a
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 3: you know, a deer tracking dog a few years ago
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: and the same thing happened. We kind of just ended
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 3: up doing circles and there was a lot of just
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 3: you know, dead ends, and eventually said, I think that
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 3: that deer that we're trailing or trying to trail is
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 3: not wounded enough that it will die because it emits
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 3: right from its through its hooves. It emits a scent
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: that says I'm wounded, I'm in danger, I'm dying.
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 1: Whatever.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 3: That's what that blood, that's that's what the dog's trailing.
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: Is not trailing the blood.
• 1:08:49
  Speaker 2: Trailing corticosterone, I mean the stress foremones.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 3: Yea.
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 1: And actually that's interesting the dogs like he's not hurt.
• 1:08:56
  Speaker 2: There was a study in Jurbils where they had one
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: dur that I think was stressed or killed by a
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: cat or something, and and they get they took blood
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 2: from a gerbil who had been attacked and one who
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 2: hadn't been attacked, and another gerbil could tell the difference
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 2: between the two the blood. Yeah, so that I mean,
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 2: so that because you've got you know, you know, you've
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 2: got stress foremones coming through. Your blood is coming out.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: It smells like it.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: Yeah, right, all right, Differences in scent molecules like conditions,
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 3: dry ground versus wet, warm versus cold, rising versus steady tempts,
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: rough ground versus soft ground. You kind of said already,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 3: the rougher the ground is, the more scent molecules it traps.
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: Right, But that's good for you know, that would be
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: good for tracking, but not for trailing. Right, So if
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 2: tracking is the ground trailing. I mean that's how you
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 2: use it to Okay, I know what air the dog.
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 1: Keeps his nose in the air, and the dog keeps the.
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: Ground right right, And so I mean the search dog
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: and the search dog is the world. It's like tracking, tracking,
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: nose down trailing.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 1: Like we had a guy on that trains the apprehension
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: dogs and you talked about yeah, yeah, a dog that
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 1: goes into a building to find a suspect, his nose
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 1: is in there.
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 1: The dog that, like you're like a guy, a suspect
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: last night ran off into the woods. Yea, and now
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 1: we're wondering where he went. That dogs noses on the ground.
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 2: That's exactly that.
• 1:10:31
  Speaker 3: I think it depends on conditions too. I think that
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 3: at times hounds sometimes we'll have their nose down. If
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 3: the conditions get right and they don't have to have
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: their nose down there, they can set when their head
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: is up, they can move faster. They will switch to
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: that as long as they're still getting that well.
• 1:10:48
  Speaker 2: And so we did a study of search dogs in
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: California where it's cold and wet in the morning and
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 2: it's in the East Bay, and then it's hot and
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: dry in the afternoon and then cold and damp again
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: in the evening. And so we were using search and
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: rescue dogs really really well trained and very carefully controlled.
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 2: We had like a quarter mile track with a human
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 2: walking on it and and waited at the end and
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 2: and then we just measured the location of the dog GPS.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: And we also developed this thing to measure whether the
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 2: head up was head up or down, and we every
• 1:11:26
  Speaker 2: ten meters, we took a weather station and we measured
• 1:11:29
  Speaker 2: the wispeed, temperature, everything and so, and what we found
• 1:11:34
  Speaker 2: was it basically they were more accurate when it was
• 1:11:38
  Speaker 2: cooler and more human, So that definitely and the reason.
• 1:11:44
  Speaker 3: And probably faster to.
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: That well well, so that was interesting. What we found
• 1:11:50
  Speaker 2: is that when they started off, if so we would
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 2: these are search and rescues, so we you know, we'd
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: give them a sniff of a T shirt or something,
• 1:11:57
  Speaker 2: and they take off first. Once they have the scent,
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 2: they know exactly what they're going. They start off fast
• 1:12:05
  Speaker 2: with the trailing hitting air in the air, but then
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 2: if they start losing it, then they slow down. They're
• 1:12:13
  Speaker 2: still trailing and they slow down. But then if they
• 1:12:17
  Speaker 2: then they start you see him circling, so they after
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 2: if they slowed they slowed down, and now they're circling
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 2: like ten twenty yards away from the trail and they're
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 2: they're and they're they're still trailing, but they're circling. Then
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 2: they really lost it. Then they they they may move
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 2: like up to like forty yards away from the trail.
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 2: They're circling and they're on their ground on the ground.
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 2: So and what we found is when you had the
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 2: like here was a trail and if there was a
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 2: big wind coming the actual there was a lot of
• 1:12:51
  Speaker 2: probably these heavy molecules blown down off the trail because
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 2: there was this one place where our our the track
• 1:12:59
  Speaker 2: went next to small hill there was wind coming down
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 2: and all the dogs kind of scooped down so they
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: didn't stay on the trail. They still Yeah, so it's
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: like the exactly they they and they're so accurate and
• 1:13:15
  Speaker 2: and so but but that so there was like three strategies,
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: you know, and basically, when you know what, you know
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 2: exactly where you're going, your your high speed air and
• 1:13:25
  Speaker 2: then if you start not sure, you move away from
• 1:13:28
  Speaker 2: the trail and now you're you're using air, but you're moving,
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 2: you know, you're kind of circling your you're away from this.
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 3: Once they start circling, they've lost it. They're looking they lost.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 2: That's right, that's right. Yeah, And that's exactly what you
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 2: see in all animals butterfly, you know, and moss. I mean,
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 2: all animals that orient to space. Humans. We've done this
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 2: in humans in virtual environments. You know, it's casting. You know,
• 1:13:51
  Speaker 2: they're trying to find the plume and and yeah, and
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 2: then but they didn't really do the head down to
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 2: the ground unless they were really lost. And then they're
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 2: looking for like some big heavy molecules. But so I
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 2: think it's it's like, you know, if you want to
• 1:14:08
  Speaker 2: go fast find them, you want you know, you want
• 1:14:11
  Speaker 2: to just his air. But then if you lost it,
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 2: then you have to Okay, you know, you got to
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 2: do something slower, harder. But then you say, okay, that
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: is they were here.
• 1:14:21
  Speaker 3: Do you think that can be trained?
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: Oh? Absolutely? I mean I mean these search dog people
• 1:14:28
  Speaker 2: I worked with Shay Cook and others, I mean they
• 1:14:31
  Speaker 2: start training their dogs when they're eight weeks old. I
• 1:14:33
  Speaker 2: mean they you can't just take any dog. And I mean,
• 1:14:38
  Speaker 2: you know, well search and rescue is a whole training thing.
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I bet.
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 2: I mean I think so. I think you've got breed differences.
• 1:14:46
  Speaker 2: You know, obviously hounds, beagles, I mean they are all
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: no's but so you but you've got layers. So you've
• 1:14:55
  Speaker 2: got the breed, You've got personality, which is going to
• 1:14:59
  Speaker 2: very within a litter. Then you've got experience, which is training,
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: and then its own experience maybe also you know, they're
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: gonna learn from each other, so like, is there a
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: really experienced dog that is leading the pack that other
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: the younger dogs can pick up on. So all that's
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 2: gonna and you know, complexity, which is probably why you
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: end up with some amazing dogs, you know, that are
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: doing things. Shay had a dog, Zinca, who she was
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: hired to go to an orchard in southern California to
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: find a you know, an invasive pest insects pest. And
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 2: this was like five acre orchard and the dog found
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: both the insects you know, I mean, and didn't look
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 2: and because she trained her on that insect, I mean
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: that's the other thing. Oh tiny tiny you know, like
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: not like a big old cocka no, no, no, little
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 2: a little tiny thing. And and you were asking about,
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 2: you know, can they learn different things? Well that you know,
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 2: you've got the dog who's only will go for blood
• 1:16:14
  Speaker 2: or or go for whatever's coming out of the hoofs
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: I mean search and rescue. You've got car you know,
• 1:16:19
  Speaker 2: you've got cadaver versus live, you know, and and I
• 1:16:23
  Speaker 2: mean we you know, we also and you can have
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 2: six people run out into a field site and the
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 2: dog is only supposed to find one person, and that
• 1:16:34
  Speaker 2: dog will only go to that one person.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that level of details.
• 1:16:38
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, Yeah, that question on that.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 1: Question of of that, there's certain climatic conditions that are
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 1: good for a dog or any animal smell. Yeah, I'm
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 1: assuming to be saying for like like so in general,
• 1:16:52
  Speaker 1: you say, can can you hit me again real quick?
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: No, it's it's a physics really, So it's more humid
• 1:16:59
  Speaker 2: is better, and that it turns out that's because water molecules.
• 1:17:06
  Speaker 2: There's only so many places that an odor can sit
• 1:17:09
  Speaker 2: on the surface, and when there's a lot of water
• 1:17:12
  Speaker 2: molecules in the air, they fill up all those places
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: and so odor molecules stay in the air. That's this
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 2: is what the physicists have.
• 1:17:20
  Speaker 1: Really have said. Yet it seems like and it's warm
• 1:17:24
  Speaker 1: better than cold, and.
• 1:17:25
  Speaker 2: Warm is better than cold because warm is more You've
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 2: got more air movement, I mean, molecules move more when
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: when it's warmer. So you want but you don't want
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 2: you So you want warm and human and probably a
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 2: textured surface, not like you know, not bare rock.
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: But assuming that, like assuming that through time odors degrade, yes,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: would there ever be a situation? Could it be that
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 1: you went somewhere, a dog went somewhere, and it was
• 1:18:00
  Speaker 1: and the coldest part of the day, So there's already
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: an odor laid down, okay, and animal's already gone by. Yeah,
• 1:18:08
  Speaker 1: you take your dog there the coldest part of the day. Yeah,
• 1:18:12
  Speaker 1: and it can't do it. It's good, but it ever
• 1:18:15
  Speaker 1: makes sense you'd be like, I'm gonna come back when
• 1:18:17
  Speaker 1: it warms up and let them take another swing out.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: Now the odor is older. But would the climatic conditions
• 1:18:24
  Speaker 1: ever override the age and somehow activate the odor?
• 1:18:29
  Speaker 2: I bet, I know, I bet they would. I bet
• 1:18:31
  Speaker 2: they would. And then the other thing is, you know,
• 1:18:35
  Speaker 2: dogs have a really interesting way that they activate odors
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: in the ground. So when they I mean, you know,
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: the dog knows they got two holes in front, right,
• 1:18:46
  Speaker 2: they're bringing odor in, and when they sniff in they
• 1:18:52
  Speaker 2: in the back, there's like a little valve that opens up,
• 1:18:55
  Speaker 2: and that odor gets sucked in that valve and goes
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 2: right up to this place where like you know, that
• 1:19:02
  Speaker 2: collects all the odors for detecting. Then that's an inspiration.
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 2: Right when they're there's they're breathing in. When they breathe out,
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 2: that valve closes and they breathe out through the those
• 1:19:17
  Speaker 2: slits on the side, and that sends the air to
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: the side and down and backwards, and so when they
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 2: breathe out, they're not contaminating what they're trying to breathe
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 2: in with what they're breathing out.
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:19:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, this is Gary Settles did. This work is amazing,
• 1:19:35
  Speaker 2: amazing work. And it's even more amazing is that he
• 1:19:40
  Speaker 2: showed he studies aerodynamics that when they they jet air
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 2: out of the slits of the nose, it becomes turbulent
• 1:19:51
  Speaker 2: and it actually creates a little turbulent field like this
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: is when the dog's nose is close to the ground,
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 2: and that turbulent field moves forward and sucks air from
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: in front of the nose into the towards the nose.
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: So when they breathe out, so it's like this incredible
• 1:20:08
  Speaker 2: feedback where the dog as he's breathing out, he's also
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: making the odors ahead of him come towards him.
• 1:20:18
  Speaker 1: God's growble.
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 3: So I think we've kind of covered this, but just
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 3: just so that all the hound folks out there know.
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 3: But like there's someone that lives in Texas and doesn't
• 1:20:33
  Speaker 3: want dogs that run bobcats, only wants them to run lions.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, he seems to have successfully done so. And
• 1:20:41
  Speaker 3: you feel like that's that should be very easy to do,
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: very training.
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, I mean that's what the search and rescue people
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 2: do all the time. I mean they all I mean
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 2: they will train one dog to do one thing, or
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: they will train to I mean, I think they're dogs
• 1:20:53
  Speaker 2: that do more than like do cadavers and live humans
• 1:20:57
  Speaker 2: and you know, and then there's drug dogs that are
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: only looking for one kind of drug.
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: So it seems like from what you're saying, it seems
• 1:21:04
  Speaker 1: like it could be possible not only for it to
• 1:21:06
  Speaker 1: know a mountain lion from a bobcat, but it to
• 1:21:09
  Speaker 1: know that mountain lion from that mountain lion.
• 1:21:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely absolutely, and maybe you could say train it just
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: to go for female you know, bobcats I mean they
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: would be able to do that.
• 1:21:19
  Speaker 1: They know that absolutely.
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: I mean, you know you'd have to. I wouldn't want
• 1:21:23
  Speaker 2: you to do that, and I don't know how you
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 2: do that, but but there.
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: Smell would be that that it could tell.
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: The difference, right, I mean it just like you know,
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: the kangaroo knows that that was a Tasmania devil that
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: has eaten kangaroo. There's you know, mice voles. Actually two
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: males know that that male has eaten in last twelve
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: hours and this one hasn't. So this one is more
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: of a competitor because it's you know so I mean,
• 1:21:53
  Speaker 2: it's just like it's there's there's a massive amount of
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: there's no privacy in old faction. Everything that you are
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 2: comes out through your skin and an animal and their
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 2: scent marks and oh that's the other thing is scent marks.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: How do you how you know odors like when animals,
• 1:22:12
  Speaker 2: you know, urinate defcade. I mean there's a lot of
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 2: oils and heavy molecules and those all prevent the odors
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: from evaporating. And so if you're like, if you're marking
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: what you on purpose, you want you know, everyone to
• 1:22:31
  Speaker 2: know that that's your territory and I marked it, and
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: you don't want it to disappear because you want them
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 2: to think I just marked it, because that means I
• 1:22:39
  Speaker 2: was just there. And animals are really sensitive to how
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: long an odor has been was last there and in fact,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: oh this was a dog. Result is that if you
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: take a search dog and you bring them in at
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: a right angle to a trail, and are they going
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: to turn left or right to follow a human? Well,
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: there's two studies of this and where they only need
• 1:23:04
  Speaker 2: five human footsteps to know which way the human went.
• 1:23:10
  Speaker 2: And that's so you've got a human who laid down
• 1:23:12
  Speaker 2: a trail like you know, twenty minutes ago, and the
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 2: dog comes in and three steps isn't enough. Five steps
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: isn't enough. That means that the light volatiles have you know,
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: have blown off the difference between the first step and
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 2: the fifth step.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 1: I mean, so he can go like weaker, weaker, take
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 1: five steps stronger.
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 2: Stronger exactly, And so they know that the mike prey
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 2: is going, you know, went left, not right. And so
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: that's the kind of discrimination between you know, a human
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: wearing shoes five steps that the dog knows that that's
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: the difference I mean, and that was and they were
• 1:23:52
  Speaker 2: stepping on carpet, so it wasn't like crushed vegetation or anything.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was really just the steps.
• 1:24:00
  Speaker 3: So it should be I mean, if it's doing that
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 3: with a human in boots, it should be no different
• 1:24:06
  Speaker 3: with a lion or a bobcat.
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 2: Or because they're sweating through their pads. I mean, animals
• 1:24:12
  Speaker 2: have all these sweat glands in their pads to protect them.
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I mean, they're just.
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, Okay, I know from a fact I've watched him
• 1:24:22
  Speaker 3: do it. I can explain all the conditions if you want,
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 3: but this is a fact. The short version of We're
• 1:24:28
  Speaker 3: out there together mingus and I my bluetick hound dog,
• 1:24:33
  Speaker 3: and he's maybe twenty yards down the hill from me,
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 3: and we both kind of come up on a track
• 1:24:38
  Speaker 3: at the same time, and I go, oh, I think
• 1:24:40
  Speaker 3: that's a mountain lion track. Wow, before I've really looked closely,
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 3: and he immediately boo starts going off. He starts going
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 3: one direction and does not change directions. This track has
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 3: quite a bit of fresh snow on it from the morning,
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 3: but it's obviously fresh enough that he's smelling through that
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 3: fresh snoe. I couldn't tell which way it was going
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 3: until the track went underneath a tree where there was
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 3: less snow and that could finally see the toes. Yeah,
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 3: he ran that track backwards. I'm guessing seven hundred to
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: one thousand yards the wrong direction. Eventually he turned. Yeah,
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 3: so is he just.
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 2: You know, he is he and his head up right,
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: he's trailing. He's going for its air. You know, he
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 2: knows that he sniffs the trail, he knows there's a
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 2: mountain lion. Yeah, there's I mean, what was the wind
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: that day?
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: There was probably it wasn't dead calm, yeah, something.
• 1:25:36
  Speaker 1: But this is generally, this is like a general thing
• 1:25:39
  Speaker 1: that people sort of know, is it. A beagle can
• 1:25:42
  Speaker 1: very quickly figure out what way a rabbit went, but
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 1: a hound can't quickly figure out what way.
• 1:25:52
  Speaker 2: Oh that's interesting.
• 1:25:53
  Speaker 1: But here's the key difference. A beagles are is working
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: something that happened two minutes ago. Oh okay, he's working effectively.
• 1:26:01
  Speaker 2: What happened and nose down, nose down right the beagle.
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 2: The beagle is doing nose down, so it's working on
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 2: big molecules that are being left by the body, you know,
• 1:26:11
  Speaker 2: whereas the but that's a very slow way to work,
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 2: as opposed to the hound, which is like I'm moving
• 1:26:17
  Speaker 2: after a mountain lion. That's a big animal moving very fast.
• 1:26:21
  Speaker 2: I need to use air, right because I've got to
• 1:26:24
  Speaker 2: go far. And so maybe occasionally that's a mountain lion.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 2: But now the wind has come in and it's shifted
• 1:26:31
  Speaker 2: it over like that we've seen with our search dogs.
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 2: They shift over and so it's it's picking up a molecule,
• 1:26:37
  Speaker 2: you know, a volatile molecule, and the volatile molecules are
• 1:26:41
  Speaker 2: this way, and then it gets to a point where
• 1:26:44
  Speaker 2: it's like, you know what that's that's the wrong way,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 2: and then it's going to come back.
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: No, what he means is he's following it like I missing.
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 1: Like like, okay, let's say you let's say a rabbit
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: is scared. A dog scares around. You scare a rabbit, yea,
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 1: you see, rabbit takes off and then someone's like, oh,
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 1: here comes the beagle. So you know what way the
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: rabbit was, Here comes the beagle. That beagle is going
• 1:27:12
  Speaker 1: to almost instantly know what direction of travel. It's not
• 1:27:18
  Speaker 1: going to run it backwards.
• 1:27:20
  Speaker 2: Right, but that's like the dog, it's going to go
• 1:27:22
  Speaker 2: the way it went.
• 1:27:23
  Speaker 1: But that's like, but that's a minute's old trail. But like,
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 1: like I think what he's saying, his dog went didn't
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 1: know the way the lion was going, and he went
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 1: seven hundred one thousand yards in the wrong direction.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: Right, completely wrong.
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 3: Well, he's literally following the trail backwards backwards.
• 1:27:45
  Speaker 2: Oh, he's following it backwards.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 1: He's not putting together that it's getting older and older
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: and older.
• 1:27:50
  Speaker 2: Oh that's very cool. Okay, because number one is snow.
• 1:27:53
  Speaker 2: So it's cold, it's not great conditions, and so.
• 1:27:57
  Speaker 3: Any snow is going to be bad.
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: Well harder, I think harder, definitely harder. So like, what
• 1:28:05
  Speaker 2: what do beagles do in the snow? I guess that would.
• 1:28:07
  Speaker 1: Be But they're fat, they're fine. But again, yeah, he's
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 1: dealing like just the nature of hunting rabbits with a beagle,
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 1: because you're dealing with things that just happened right right, right,
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: So but with the like in that situation, you're dealing
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 1: with things that are hours ago.
• 1:28:23
  Speaker 2: Right, But but it do beagles mostly hunt nose down? Also? Okay, okay,
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: so that's a completely different So now your dog needs
• 1:28:32
  Speaker 2: to hunt. No, it's an old trail. It's gotta hunt
• 1:28:35
  Speaker 2: nose down, it's got to go for the heavy things,
• 1:28:37
  Speaker 2: right and hepper. You know again that that study showed
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 2: that to do those heavy ones, you can do direction,
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: but you need a certain amount of data to get
• 1:28:49
  Speaker 2: the direction correct. And so you've got an old trail
• 1:28:52
  Speaker 2: in the snow, so you've got two strikes against you.
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 3: And so.
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 2: There's probably enough odor in that trail that it knows
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 2: that that's a mountain lion, but there's not enough odor.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 2: They're not getting the oh, because the volatiles are gone.
• 1:29:07
  Speaker 2: It's an old trail, so you need the volatiles to
• 1:29:13
  Speaker 2: knowin you know, for an old trail, like the Beagle
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: probably is getting volatiles too, you know, because it's a brand.
• 1:29:19
  Speaker 2: It's just happened. So you've got an old trail. So
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: all it's left are the big heavy molecules, the volatiles that.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: Can you just just define and explain the volatiles little.
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: Okay, just little things that that evaporate into the air,
• 1:29:35
  Speaker 2: little molecules.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 3: You know.
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 2: It's like if if I'm sure you know all this
• 1:29:41
  Speaker 2: in perfume people talk, I'm just joking, but but if
• 1:29:45
  Speaker 2: you wear perfume, they're base notes, and there's top notes.
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 2: And when you put perfume on your skin, the first
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 2: thing you smell is a top note, and it's the
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 2: it's the small molecules that come off first, and then
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 2: then an hour later, then it's a it's a different perfume.
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 2: It smells on your skin smells it's a base note,
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 2: because that's now you're the top notes are burnt off
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 2: and now you're getting a base are gone, right, and
• 1:30:09
  Speaker 2: so so you've got so perfume. People you know, and
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 2: they know top notes, middle notes, based it's the same thing.
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 2: And so you're basically an old trail. The top notes
• 1:30:20
  Speaker 2: are gone, they've all evaporated, you know before, and so
• 1:30:24
  Speaker 2: what's left is enough, you know, to know that that's
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 2: a mountain lion. And this is a this is a
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 2: fairly I mean, if that was a month old trail
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 2: in the snow, you dog might not even I mean,
• 1:30:38
  Speaker 2: the dog still might know it's a mountain lion. But
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 2: it's like that trail is so old, I'm not gonna bother. Yeah,
• 1:30:44
  Speaker 2: I'm never gonna some of it is a dog saying
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: I'm gonna you know, it's not it's not worth my time.
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: But your dog going doing a one eighty means that
• 1:30:52
  Speaker 2: it's missing those little molecules that come off early that
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 2: tell it. Because that's like literally think about the difference
• 1:31:01
  Speaker 2: between the step one and step five. That is like
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: you know, one second, I mean difference, and that's how old.
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 1: So but that's helpful with a rapidly dissipating thing, right
• 1:31:13
  Speaker 1: exactly so, because these same dogs, if they're chasing a raccoon,
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 1: they know the way the raccoon went. But that's all
• 1:31:20
  Speaker 1: new stuff right now, that's tonight. They're like they're at midnight.
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 1: They're at midnight. They're talking about what happened at eleven
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 1: pm exactly. His dog at eight am is maybe talking
• 1:31:34
  Speaker 1: about what happened at one am.
• 1:31:36
  Speaker 2: You know, yeah, yeah, yeah, the day before exactly, or
• 1:31:40
  Speaker 2: even even you know, if it's important, I mean, if
• 1:31:43
  Speaker 2: you've got a buck, you know, chasing a dough, I
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 2: bet there could be you know, even longer. In fact,
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: squirrels they know not only they smell and they smell
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: a female at like these a ground squirrel, say, males
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: come up and they smell a female and they know
• 1:32:04
  Speaker 2: that she's like three days away from being receptive, and
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 2: they come back three days later, you couldn't know.
• 1:32:11
  Speaker 3: So certainly if a buck deer would do that with
• 1:32:13
  Speaker 3: a total.
• 1:32:14
  Speaker 2: Totally, it's like she's not ready yet. Yeah, yeah, and
• 1:32:19
  Speaker 2: they that's what I can tell you where I'll be
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: on Tuesday, Yes, exactly, exactly.
• 1:32:25
  Speaker 3: Let's talk about time.
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: Time is that's the one thing that I really think
• 1:32:29
  Speaker 2: of odor as space and time, because every time you
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 2: put an odor down, it starts a time, it starts
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: to stop watch sure, and anyone smelling it knows when
• 1:32:39
  Speaker 2: they were there.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, So let's talk about that, like conditions that either
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 3: preserve or degrade the sense that these dogs or whoever
• 1:32:49
  Speaker 3: is trying to follow.
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 2: Well, you know, that's why cats cover their you know,
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: animals cover their poops and I mean cover their scats
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: and things like that. Or why you've got you know, bears,
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: you know, reaching really high up and and marking trees
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 2: because they've got scent glands. I'm sure they've got must
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: have scent glands in their in their paws, and so
• 1:33:13
  Speaker 2: they're leaving individual signature. They're also telling another bear that
• 1:33:18
  Speaker 2: I am that tall, you know, because you can't fake it.
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: They don't have little step stools, you know why dogs
• 1:33:25
  Speaker 2: pee as high up as they can into into like
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 2: texture surface, so that's gonna stay longer anything, you know, textured.
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 2: But animals really care about how long scent lasts. Mice
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 2: males have something called a mouse urinary protein, and it's
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 2: this massive protein that only males. Males produce enormous quantity
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 2: and it all the only function is is to make
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: the the volatiles not evaporate so quickly. So and they're
• 1:33:57
  Speaker 2: because they're competing. I mean, it's just like coyote or
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 2: wolves there, anything that's sent marking territorial. Mice are very territorial,
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 2: and so they're marking their territory and they want so
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 2: another male coming in. So oh that male was just there.
• 1:34:12
  Speaker 2: He's you know, he's defending this space. I'll back off.
• 1:34:14
  Speaker 1: A cat scratching if it, if it, if it that
• 1:34:20
  Speaker 1: should be covering its own scat or covering its own
• 1:34:23
  Speaker 1: iran is you think it's like he's trying to get
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: it to stick around, not trying to destroy it. Yeah,
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: he's trying to get it from dissipating.
• 1:34:30
  Speaker 2: I think so, I mean, I'm not sure. I'm not
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: totally sure about that. That could be. That could also
• 1:34:35
  Speaker 2: be trying to you know, cats are small, reducing scent
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 2: so that predators don't know you're around. Also that that's
• 1:34:43
  Speaker 2: a possibility.
• 1:34:44
  Speaker 1: Or they make marks like like yes, they they make
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: visual marks.
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and that and that's you know, but you've
• 1:34:55
  Speaker 2: got like mountain lions will you know, berry prey that's
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: so like other animals don't find it it And hyenas
• 1:35:02
  Speaker 2: cash bones in water holes so that they absolutely.
• 1:35:06
  Speaker 1: No one can smell it.
• 1:35:08
  Speaker 2: That's definitely trying to hide it. Yeah, but a lot
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 2: of but you know, you can see scent scat piles
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 2: by coyotes or wolves. I mean they're they just keep
• 1:35:18
  Speaker 2: marking the same place. I mean this is like really
• 1:35:21
  Speaker 2: obvious visual you know, I am here, I was just here.
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 2: I mean this has been studied a lot. It's in
• 1:35:30
  Speaker 2: there's studied hamsters that they also do something called countermarking,
• 1:35:34
  Speaker 2: So one animal will mark, and then the other one
• 1:35:37
  Speaker 2: comes and marks over it. And and they did the
• 1:35:42
  Speaker 2: study where instead of having two animals mark, they painted
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 2: with a paintbrush a broken line and then a and
• 1:35:51
  Speaker 2: then a solid line, so from two different hamsters, and
• 1:35:56
  Speaker 2: so it looked like this, the solid line had come
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 2: after the broken line but they had actually been done
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 2: at the same time it was, but the geometry of
• 1:36:06
  Speaker 2: the mark would have suggested that one of them was
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: later and therefore dominant. And then when they set those
• 1:36:17
  Speaker 2: two males up as contestants, they treated they treated that
• 1:36:23
  Speaker 2: male as dominant, even though the whole thing had been
• 1:36:27
  Speaker 2: set up by the experimenters. Really yeah, yeah, So that
• 1:36:32
  Speaker 2: means so when you know, when you see scat piles,
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 2: they probably coyotes. And while they probably know they know
• 1:36:41
  Speaker 2: who's done it, when they did it, who did it?
• 1:36:43
  Speaker 2: Let you know, I mean there's just this all this thing. Yeah,
• 1:36:46
  Speaker 2: I mean, there's just it's like the it's like the internet,
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 2: it never goes away, it's all there. They smell it.
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 2: I mean I think I think dogs probably learned to
• 1:36:55
  Speaker 2: ignore something that's not going to pay off. I mean,
• 1:36:58
  Speaker 2: that's you know, it's not so the question is do
• 1:37:00
  Speaker 2: they they smell it or is it or is it
• 1:37:04
  Speaker 2: they don't think it's worth it. And to do that
• 1:37:07
  Speaker 2: you need to bring them into the you know, into
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: like an experiment where you collect these scent samples and
• 1:37:14
  Speaker 2: you say, can you tell me which one you know,
• 1:37:19
  Speaker 2: is this a mountain lion or which one's older you
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 2: should you know, you ask them which one's older, they
• 1:37:23
  Speaker 2: should be able to, you know, tell you that, and
• 1:37:27
  Speaker 2: you know, press a lever for the older one. And
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: so I mean that's the kinds of those are kinds
• 1:37:33
  Speaker 2: of experiments you could do with dogs to find out
• 1:37:35
  Speaker 2: because I bet they know a lot more than we
• 1:37:37
  Speaker 2: we know.
• 1:37:38
  Speaker 3: In the case of like holding scent and these conditions
• 1:37:41
  Speaker 3: that might prolong scent being there and get rid of it,
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 3: like is there you said, Obviously, textures are good because
• 1:37:47
  Speaker 3: it's just like little nooks and crannies. I'm guessing for
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 3: these heavier molecules to sit in and get held. Is
• 1:37:52
  Speaker 3: there something that wheres snow in some form because it's
• 1:37:59
  Speaker 3: you know, you're was pressing it into a medium that
• 1:38:02
  Speaker 3: it would hold scent molecules, or because there again, there
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 3: are times where I can clearly see that it's a
• 1:38:08
  Speaker 3: mountain lion track, but my dog is not interested, and
• 1:38:10
  Speaker 3: it's like it's visually there, but somehow the scent has
• 1:38:13
  Speaker 3: literally well it's all so disappeared from it.
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 2: I mean it's also cold. It's wet, but it's cold, yeah,
• 1:38:20
  Speaker 2: and that's the and cold is it makes it harder
• 1:38:24
  Speaker 2: to the molecules. Literally, it's you know, Brownie in motion.
• 1:38:28
  Speaker 2: The molecules are not moving, and so they're just like they're.
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 3: They need molecules moving to be able.
• 1:38:34
  Speaker 2: To because they've got to Yeah, they got to get
• 1:38:36
  Speaker 2: it in their nose. And if it's all I mean,
• 1:38:39
  Speaker 2: so normally, you know, if they're smelling close to the ground,
• 1:38:44
  Speaker 2: the molecules are you know, they're kind of dancing above
• 1:38:47
  Speaker 2: the ground and they're be able to smell them, and
• 1:38:49
  Speaker 2: they sniff them and they're sucking up the air and
• 1:38:53
  Speaker 2: they're sniff sniffing them in.
• 1:38:54
  Speaker 3: So it's literally the air next to said surface, not
• 1:38:59
  Speaker 3: the surface itself.
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean right, because the surface they're trying to
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 2: get they can't smell the surface. They have to smell
• 1:39:06
  Speaker 2: things in the air, and so they they're you know,
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 2: they they're going sniff, sniff, sniff. And then of course
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 2: when they're expiring, they're they're setting up these little they're
• 1:39:15
  Speaker 2: agitating it so they're they're bringing up anything that's on
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: the ground, they're bringing it up into air and then
• 1:39:22
  Speaker 2: they can suck it in and find out what it is.
• 1:39:26
  Speaker 2: But they I mean, so the same thing when they're
• 1:39:32
  Speaker 2: there might be a you know, a hard surface or
• 1:39:36
  Speaker 2: clothing or something, and to smell it, they still need
• 1:39:40
  Speaker 2: those molecules to be in the air. They can't they
• 1:39:44
  Speaker 2: can't stuff a piece of cloth in their nose and
• 1:39:46
  Speaker 2: say that's what it is. It has to be something
• 1:39:48
  Speaker 2: that's got to come off the surface into air into
• 1:39:53
  Speaker 2: to get into their nose. So if it's cold, I
• 1:39:57
  Speaker 2: think molecules are just not going to be moving as much.
• 1:40:01
  Speaker 2: Their nose isn't probably going to be working as well.
• 1:40:04
  Speaker 2: I mean, I imagine if you, if you, if you,
• 1:40:09
  Speaker 2: if you took like a hand warmer and put it
• 1:40:12
  Speaker 2: on the on the on the on the footprint and
• 1:40:15
  Speaker 2: heated it up that way, that would be interesting. I
• 1:40:18
  Speaker 2: wonder if that was I might.
• 1:40:19
  Speaker 1: Excite some activity there for something. Let me ask you
• 1:40:23
  Speaker 1: a series of quick questions, like so, just like what
• 1:40:27
  Speaker 1: one's better like if as a as a surface for
• 1:40:31
  Speaker 1: an animal to detect odor on. Okay, so like gym floor,
• 1:40:36
  Speaker 1: gravel driveway, I'd.
• 1:40:38
  Speaker 2: Say, well for detection, the same temperature and the same wind.
• 1:40:48
  Speaker 2: And I think actually the gym floor because things are
• 1:40:52
  Speaker 2: not going to stick to it, so they're gonna be
• 1:40:53
  Speaker 2: more they're gonna you know, the same wind is going
• 1:40:56
  Speaker 2: to pick things off the gym floor. But if you
• 1:40:58
  Speaker 2: want to know, twenty four hours later where where there
• 1:41:03
  Speaker 2: might be a cold trail, then I would say the gravel,
• 1:41:05
  Speaker 2: because it would have gone down into the crevices and
• 1:41:09
  Speaker 2: it would there would still be stuff there. I guess actually,
• 1:41:12
  Speaker 2: so that would be I would say the if what
• 1:41:14
  Speaker 2: are you going for? You're going for the heavy molecules
• 1:41:16
  Speaker 2: or the light molecules.
• 1:41:17
  Speaker 1: I just I didn't think it through that far.
• 1:41:19
  Speaker 2: I didn't. I mean, I'm doing this on the fly,
• 1:41:21
  Speaker 2: but I but I think, yeah, because a smooth surface,
• 1:41:29
  Speaker 2: you know, it's a smooth surface. Molecules volcils are just
• 1:41:32
  Speaker 2: gonna you know, blow stay stay aloft.
• 1:41:35
  Speaker 1: But it won't have the holding power.
• 1:41:36
  Speaker 2: Won't of the holding powers.
• 1:41:37
  Speaker 1: I mean, I'm gonna do one more. Okay, a rock
• 1:41:41
  Speaker 1: hard frozen lake, just pure flat clear ice, yeah, or
• 1:41:48
  Speaker 1: a lake with an inch of snow frozen lake, inch
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 1: of snow.
• 1:41:52
  Speaker 2: I think an inch of snow. I mean one thing
• 1:41:57
  Speaker 2: a frozen lake is going to have. It's going to
• 1:41:59
  Speaker 2: be it's cold, it's probably gonna be windy. Everything is
• 1:42:02
  Speaker 2: gonna get blown off, and whereas the snow has some
• 1:42:06
  Speaker 2: texture to it, so it can hold onto stuff, and
• 1:42:10
  Speaker 2: snow is actually going to keep things warmer because you
• 1:42:13
  Speaker 2: know it's slightly warmer under snow.
• 1:42:15
  Speaker 1: Maybe cutty one more, Yeah, smooth granite surface inch of
• 1:42:22
  Speaker 1: snow like smooth granite, dry surface, smooth granite surface with
• 1:42:28
  Speaker 1: an inch of snow.
• 1:42:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah. I again, I think it would be if you've
• 1:42:38
  Speaker 2: got an animal that's moved fast over the smooth granite
• 1:42:41
  Speaker 2: and you're right on top of that animal, then there
• 1:42:45
  Speaker 2: that granite is gonna lift. There's gonna be a lot
• 1:42:47
  Speaker 2: of voltiles in the air, and so that that dog
• 1:42:51
  Speaker 2: with his nose up in the air is going to do.
• 1:42:53
  Speaker 2: Would It's gonna have a lot of information. But if
• 1:42:58
  Speaker 2: it's a little older than the snow is, maybe's going
• 1:43:02
  Speaker 2: to hold some of those large molecules. And I'm not
• 1:43:06
  Speaker 2: a hunter, and I'm completely completely wrong about all this, but.
• 1:43:09
  Speaker 1: That's my This isn't hunt questions, this is smelling question.
• 1:43:12
  Speaker 3: But I think what Steve is getting out a little bit,
• 1:43:16
  Speaker 3: and I think it must have been in here somewhere,
• 1:43:18
  Speaker 3: is that the dry ground versus a wet ground or
• 1:43:23
  Speaker 3: what would be called like a snow type hunt.
• 1:43:26
  Speaker 1: There's a debate here that you'll think is interesting.
• 1:43:30
  Speaker 3: In Arizona and the Southwest, the hounds are constantly having
• 1:43:35
  Speaker 3: to work in drag conditions, right, no, snow right right right,
• 1:43:39
  Speaker 3: the northern tier of the Rockies, we're always running tracks
• 1:43:44
  Speaker 3: in the snow. I think it's a common belief that
• 1:43:49
  Speaker 3: the dry ground hounds have it harder.
• 1:43:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, because it's I mean, when all else fails, humidity,
• 1:43:58
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, so you've got it hot and dry.
• 1:44:01
  Speaker 2: That's that's what our dogs they were the worst hot
• 1:44:04
  Speaker 2: and dry, and they're better when it's cold and humid. No,
• 1:44:07
  Speaker 2: we weren't working in snow, but maybe that's the same thing.
• 1:44:11
  Speaker 1: Well you're talking, but you're talking about the snow's ability
• 1:44:15
  Speaker 1: because this is cold, this old stuff, old information, right,
• 1:44:19
  Speaker 1: the snow's ability to hang on to some old information.
• 1:44:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, exactly. And and and snow does I mean
• 1:44:25
  Speaker 2: that's why animals burrow in snow. I mean it's warmer.
• 1:44:28
  Speaker 2: You're warmer in the snow than you are exposed.
• 1:44:32
  Speaker 3: So yeah, no, this has been really interesting because I
• 1:44:35
  Speaker 3: think you're you are you know, you're clearing it up.
• 1:44:38
  Speaker 3: But I think for reasons that maybe a lot of
• 1:44:41
  Speaker 3: hound hunters hadn't thought about, right, that it's really about
• 1:44:46
  Speaker 3: what's going on above the surface, not so much.
• 1:44:49
  Speaker 1: That's right, that's interesting smelling just like definitionally has to
• 1:45:00
  Speaker 1: be something that is in the.
• 1:45:01
  Speaker 2: Air right right right, unless using the over a nasal system,
• 1:45:05
  Speaker 2: unless they're tasting this, they're tasting it, which which is
• 1:45:08
  Speaker 2: when licking it right exactly.
• 1:45:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah, do you feel like when they're panting, so when
• 1:45:14
  Speaker 3: they're working real hard, what's that what's that affecting that.
• 1:45:17
  Speaker 2: That blocks their smell? They can't sniff and pant at
• 1:45:19
  Speaker 2: the same time. Really, Yes, that definitely, there's yes, no,
• 1:45:24
  Speaker 2: because you know you've you can't bring you bring air
• 1:45:29
  Speaker 2: into that's just going straight into your lungs. You've got
• 1:45:32
  Speaker 2: to bring it, you know, past the old factory epithelium.
• 1:45:36
  Speaker 2: You're not You're not panting through your nose, You're panting
• 1:45:39
  Speaker 2: through your your you know, your mouth.
• 1:45:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Oh, I got to hit you with one about
• 1:45:43
  Speaker 1: this whole dry ground humidity deal. So my buddy Kevin Murphy,
• 1:45:47
  Speaker 1: he's a he's he likes to run rabbits with his beagles.
• 1:45:52
  Speaker 1: He lives in Kentucky. He runs rabbits all over hell
• 1:45:55
  Speaker 1: all the time. We took his beagles out to New
• 1:45:59
  Speaker 1: Mexico in the flat out desert. Yeah, and put them
• 1:46:02
  Speaker 1: on jack rabbits. Yeah, and also contil so same rats.
• 1:46:05
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah yeah yeah yeah yeah.
• 1:46:07
  Speaker 1: They couldn't do it.
• 1:46:08
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I believe that.
• 1:46:09
  Speaker 1: Oh that's and in his mind he's like, they're not
• 1:46:12
  Speaker 1: used to hot and dry.
• 1:46:14
  Speaker 2: Well no, I mean the hot and dry is harder period.
• 1:46:17
  Speaker 2: And plus though these I mean, I mean, if we're
• 1:46:22
  Speaker 2: thinking beagles are nosed down heavy molecule trackers, but still
• 1:46:29
  Speaker 2: it's just not gonna. Yeah, they're gonna they they're using
• 1:46:34
  Speaker 2: brand new and so they're they're gonna lost all their
• 1:46:36
  Speaker 2: volatiles they're used to. I mean, they're you know, they're spoiled.
• 1:46:40
  Speaker 2: They're in Kentucky. It's incredibly hot and human. They've got
• 1:46:43
  Speaker 2: it's like a perfect old factory, you know, situation. And
• 1:46:47
  Speaker 2: then it's just like I mean probably if you if
• 1:46:49
  Speaker 2: you've kept those beagles in Arizona for a year, and
• 1:46:52
  Speaker 2: they would learn. But but you just bring them out
• 1:46:56
  Speaker 2: there and they're what, there's no information here. This is
• 1:46:59
  Speaker 2: I can't do this.
• 1:47:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah, there's people trying to figure out deer, you know,
• 1:47:06
  Speaker 3: and they make synthetic sense o huh that are meant
• 1:47:11
  Speaker 3: to you know, be like, not only is it a
• 1:47:14
  Speaker 3: scent coming off the face of a deer, but it's
• 1:47:16
  Speaker 3: this is specifically mimics the forehead gland or specifically mimic
• 1:47:20
  Speaker 3: the the orbital or glands that are you know where
• 1:47:24
  Speaker 3: they peon them on their right right right. So again
• 1:47:29
  Speaker 3: just in your experience and messing around with sense, like,
• 1:47:31
  Speaker 3: is it possible for us to just to make a
• 1:47:35
  Speaker 3: synthetic scent that could that could fool a deer's nose?
• 1:47:39
  Speaker 2: And so no, because hamsters have like the same thing.
• 1:47:45
  Speaker 2: They've got like four different scent glands and they and
• 1:47:48
  Speaker 2: so the lab work and this is I'm sure Drew
• 1:47:52
  Speaker 2: for deer that they recognize individuals by all these different
• 1:47:56
  Speaker 2: you know, but they know that that's the anal gland,
• 1:47:58
  Speaker 2: and that's the chest land and that, but they also
• 1:48:01
  Speaker 2: know it's that individual. So it's a really complicated signal.
• 1:48:07
  Speaker 2: And you know, you've got a deer with five different
• 1:48:09
  Speaker 2: scent glands. Everyone smells different, not you know, they're all different,
• 1:48:13
  Speaker 2: they're different. For that they identify that individual. And now
• 1:48:18
  Speaker 2: you're bringing something some generic thing you know that is
• 1:48:23
  Speaker 2: generic hoc odor that or maybe you know it was
• 1:48:31
  Speaker 2: it was synthesized for a deer in Wisconsin, but you're
• 1:48:36
  Speaker 2: actually hunting in a completely completely different population. Probably they
• 1:48:41
  Speaker 2: smell differently, like they're going like, who the hell is that?
• 1:48:46
  Speaker 2: I don't know who that is? I mean, I've never
• 1:48:49
  Speaker 2: or that's not even my neighborhood, that's not even my state,
• 1:48:52
  Speaker 2: you know. I mean, sure if they came to Wisconsin
• 1:48:55
  Speaker 2: and they synthesized you know, your five glands for each
• 1:49:00
  Speaker 2: one of your dear even so, I think it'd be
• 1:49:03
  Speaker 2: very confusing for the deer to know, like who the he?
• 1:49:07
  Speaker 2: Who is that? I mean, that's a weird robot deer,
• 1:49:11
  Speaker 2: you know, I mean, that doesn't make any sense. It's
• 1:49:13
  Speaker 2: like if you showed up wearing a Halloween mask. You know,
• 1:49:21
  Speaker 2: it's it's equivalent of you, of you wearing of doing
• 1:49:24
  Speaker 2: something very weird. They recognize that it's deer, and they
• 1:49:27
  Speaker 2: recognize that it's a scent, but they don't understand what
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 2: it means.
• 1:49:30
  Speaker 1: You know, like a stranger walking into your house and
• 1:49:32
  Speaker 1: your kids like, oh, it's just a.
• 1:49:33
  Speaker 2: Person, yeah, exactly, exactly. Sure. You know, if you're have
• 1:49:37
  Speaker 2: dinner with us, you know, it's like no, no, no,
• 1:49:39
  Speaker 2: that's exactly that's exactly right. Yeah, so I think that
• 1:49:43
  Speaker 2: they're underestimating the deer's intelligence. And and also the other
• 1:49:48
  Speaker 2: thing is that it might be that you know, I mean,
• 1:49:54
  Speaker 2: in some populations, how do how are deers using these plans?
• 1:49:59
  Speaker 2: You know, is that something that they're marking out territories
• 1:50:04
  Speaker 2: or is it aggressive or you know, it's just it's
• 1:50:08
  Speaker 2: it's kind of like it's a deer language and you're
• 1:50:11
  Speaker 2: coming in with a big sign that says, you know,
• 1:50:16
  Speaker 2: one thing, and the deer is going, what are you saying?
• 1:50:20
  Speaker 2: I don't you know, They're just it's.
• 1:50:21
  Speaker 3: So manufacturers will claim that, hey, you don't use this
• 1:50:25
  Speaker 3: one during these dates. This one is specifically meant from
• 1:50:29
  Speaker 3: October fifteenth and November one, when the when the box
• 1:50:32
  Speaker 3: are going to be specifically going to the scrapes marking
• 1:50:35
  Speaker 3: them in a very territorial fashion, right, right, And you
• 1:50:38
  Speaker 3: want to basically introduce a stranger so that that box like, man,
• 1:50:42
  Speaker 3: I don't know who's been hitting my scrape, but I
• 1:50:45
  Speaker 3: need to come back here and keep putting my sense.
• 1:50:47
  Speaker 2: That's right now, that's that's that that makes complete sense.
• 1:50:50
  Speaker 2: You could they're marking and then then they're countermarking. That's right,
• 1:50:54
  Speaker 2: so that's exactly what they happen.
• 1:50:55
  Speaker 3: Do you feel like we could fool that bock enough
• 1:50:57
  Speaker 3: to make him think that someone else is countermarking, so
• 1:51:00
  Speaker 3: I need to come back and counter mark.
• 1:51:02
  Speaker 2: I mean, the thing is if you if you give
• 1:51:05
  Speaker 2: them an animal, something that's really really important, like and
• 1:51:10
  Speaker 2: to a buck, whether I'm gonna reproduce that is everything,
• 1:51:14
  Speaker 2: Like it doesn't I could. You know, it doesn't matter
• 1:51:15
  Speaker 2: if I live or die. If I don't reproduce, who cares?
• 1:51:18
  Speaker 2: So so that's life or death for a buck. So
• 1:51:20
  Speaker 2: that would be this is weird, but I'm going to
• 1:51:24
  Speaker 2: do it. It's kind of like when I was trapping
• 1:51:27
  Speaker 2: squirrels and you know, for behavior, and you know when
• 1:51:32
  Speaker 2: in the middle of the summer, you can trap any
• 1:51:34
  Speaker 2: squirrel as much as you want, but as soon as
• 1:51:37
  Speaker 2: the you know, the oaks start ripening again, the squirrels
• 1:51:40
  Speaker 2: are going, I'm not going in that trap. I know
• 1:51:42
  Speaker 2: it's a trap, it's a trade off. I'm like, I
• 1:51:45
  Speaker 2: know it's a trap. I know it's you know, it's
• 1:51:48
  Speaker 2: it could be bad, but I'm really hungry and I'm
• 1:51:50
  Speaker 2: going to go for it. And and two weeks later
• 1:51:53
  Speaker 2: it's like the same squirrel and.
• 1:51:54
  Speaker 3: Then because because they know at that point they have
• 1:51:58
  Speaker 3: enough to risk exactly.
• 1:52:00
  Speaker 1: Know what's crazy about to ask. So we got a buddy,
• 1:52:01
  Speaker 1: and we got a buddy in Arkansas, and they'll put
• 1:52:05
  Speaker 1: out bait piles for bears, and in the summer, you
• 1:52:09
  Speaker 1: might have seventeen eighteen bears on a bait pile. The
• 1:52:11
  Speaker 1: minute the acorns hit, Yes, they're gone.
• 1:52:14
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 1:52:15
  Speaker 1: It's like, what can't be easier than a bait pile. No, No,
• 1:52:18
  Speaker 1: But in their head, it's like, no, it's not easier
• 1:52:20
  Speaker 1: to bait piles. It's less risky than a bay pile.
• 1:52:22
  Speaker 2: It's well, I'm well, it's also you know, it's also
• 1:52:25
  Speaker 2: not it's not as good. I mean, acorns are really
• 1:52:29
  Speaker 2: highly nutritious, and I think I think that's actually because
• 1:52:32
  Speaker 2: the same thing with squirrels, you know, they, I mean
• 1:52:35
  Speaker 2: they evolve to eat acorns, and acorns are full of
• 1:52:39
  Speaker 2: kinds of micronutrients that bait that there's no way I can't,
• 1:52:43
  Speaker 2: I can't, you know, walnuts and peanuts.
• 1:52:45
  Speaker 1: He's slumming it when he's on bait.
• 1:52:47
  Speaker 2: Exactly, I mean hungry and slumming it. I think that's right. Yeah, yeah,
• 1:52:51
  Speaker 2: I got one for.
• 1:52:52
  Speaker 1: You about canines. And this is so like in the
• 1:52:57
  Speaker 1: in the outdoors, in the world. Okay, there's this long
• 1:53:02
  Speaker 1: running debate. If you went back, if you went back
• 1:53:05
  Speaker 1: to nineteen eighty, right in nineteen eighty, there was an
• 1:53:10
  Speaker 1: idea that you could that a fox trapper or a
• 1:53:15
  Speaker 1: kyout trapper could wear rubber boots and slash wear rubber boots,
• 1:53:20
  Speaker 1: slash around in the butt puddle, wear rubber gloves and
• 1:53:23
  Speaker 1: wash them. Okay, that you could go and like set
• 1:53:28
  Speaker 1: a trap and have it be that the fox or
• 1:53:31
  Speaker 1: the kyout would never would not know that a human
• 1:53:34
  Speaker 1: was there. You could make it that he was never there.
• 1:53:38
  Speaker 1: Since nineteen eighty, the understanding has evolved to now where
• 1:53:42
  Speaker 1: there's guys that don't even wear rubber gloves because in
• 1:53:47
  Speaker 1: their mind they're like, there's nothing you can do.
• 1:53:50
  Speaker 2: I think that's right.
• 1:53:51
  Speaker 1: They always know you're there. You can play games. It
• 1:53:55
  Speaker 1: knows you're there. Yeah, I mean you're tricking yourself to
• 1:53:58
  Speaker 1: think that it doesn't. It's like it knows you're there.
• 1:54:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, because you know, are we are dropping
• 1:54:04
  Speaker 2: dead skin cells like thousands all day long, you know,
• 1:54:09
  Speaker 2: and our you know, you've got these skin cells that
• 1:54:13
  Speaker 2: are covered with bacteria, and the bacteria decomposing, and that
• 1:54:16
  Speaker 2: makes your own your own particular odor. I mean, you're
• 1:54:19
  Speaker 2: just leaving a stream of heavy, you know, pieces of
• 1:54:25
  Speaker 2: tissue around you. So you're walking through the woods, you're
• 1:54:27
  Speaker 2: just dropping trails. So it's not just your feet, it's
• 1:54:30
  Speaker 2: like you're just dropping inform, you know that information. And again,
• 1:54:34
  Speaker 2: if you're a it's you know, dinner or my life,
• 1:54:38
  Speaker 2: and so so an animal who thinks you're you know,
• 1:54:41
  Speaker 2: you're a predator, they just need one little whiff of that.
• 1:54:45
  Speaker 1: And you think the idea that you would hide like
• 1:54:47
  Speaker 1: and this is like not old, this is like yesterday,
• 1:54:50
  Speaker 1: you think I'm saying. When I mean that, I mean
• 1:54:52
  Speaker 1: that you think the idea that that twenty four hours later,
• 1:54:56
  Speaker 1: that you could hang out in a place for a minute,
• 1:54:59
  Speaker 1: hovering around place for a minute, that twenty four hours later,
• 1:55:02
  Speaker 1: in your mind, it doesn't matter what you got on
• 1:55:04
  Speaker 1: your hands.
• 1:55:05
  Speaker 2: I think I think it's like there was a dude here. Yeah,
• 1:55:08
  Speaker 2: I think so. I mean, I think you know, unless
• 1:55:11
  Speaker 2: you did all this masking and all this kind of
• 1:55:13
  Speaker 2: but just your yourself with with gloves, without gloves, I
• 1:55:17
  Speaker 2: think they was still no.
• 1:55:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, but this masking that you speak of, that's what
• 1:55:20
  Speaker 3: we're interested in.
• 1:55:22
  Speaker 2: I know, I know, I know, well so then but
• 1:55:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know. I mean again, you know, animals, It's like, actually,
• 1:55:29
  Speaker 2: I've got you know, mice in my car, and so
• 1:55:32
  Speaker 2: what really works are these these rodent you know, smelly packets.
• 1:55:36
  Speaker 2: You know, you get these herbal packets. Yeah, and they
• 1:55:39
  Speaker 2: you know, you put them and and and I thought
• 1:55:42
  Speaker 2: that I was just realizing I was putting them in yesterday.
• 1:55:45
  Speaker 1: Because you have mice vandalizing your car.
• 1:55:47
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes, yeah, I just and yesterday, like before I
• 1:55:50
  Speaker 2: flew out here, I turned on the you know, the
• 1:55:53
  Speaker 2: air vents, and all this mouse beddings blowing out. It's
• 1:55:56
  Speaker 2: like I got mice back around. You live on a farm, yeah, yeah,
• 1:55:59
  Speaker 2: and we get the mice, you know, deer mice all
• 1:56:03
  Speaker 2: over the place. And I realized, no, no, no, it
• 1:56:07
  Speaker 2: isn't that they don't like the smell of this fragrant thing.
• 1:56:11
  Speaker 2: It's not. It's that it masks their own odor that
• 1:56:14
  Speaker 2: they can't It confuses them if they're We're moving around
• 1:56:19
  Speaker 2: this dark car using a lot of odor. And I've
• 1:56:21
  Speaker 2: got all these big stinky packets that people buy for
• 1:56:26
  Speaker 2: their cars and their trucks and everything is like it's
• 1:56:29
  Speaker 2: just it's disorienting. It's like having wind, so I think, and.
• 1:56:34
  Speaker 3: Again it's like a blind spot, like you said before,
• 1:56:36
  Speaker 3: it's like that odor blind spot. And they don't like that.
• 1:56:38
  Speaker 1: But that's what you're saying. Is an interesting point about
• 1:56:41
  Speaker 1: this issue is like in our minds. Okay, when I
• 1:56:45
  Speaker 1: say artists mean collectively, like people that are trying to
• 1:56:48
  Speaker 1: trick animals in your mind, you're creating an atmosphere that
• 1:56:52
  Speaker 1: he'll be comfortable being in but just won't be able
• 1:56:56
  Speaker 1: to tell what's going on. And you're saying you might
• 1:56:58
  Speaker 1: be creating an atmosphere with the they don't want.
• 1:57:00
  Speaker 2: To be in it, right, right, right, because you know.
• 1:57:03
  Speaker 1: It's like you're creating a confusing.
• 1:57:04
  Speaker 2: Information is safety? Right? I mean you wouldn't want to
• 1:57:08
  Speaker 2: be in a space that you didn't know where anything was.
• 1:57:11
  Speaker 2: I mean that's very dangerous. I mean animals number one,
• 1:57:14
  Speaker 2: where am I that they they use visional faction. I
• 1:57:18
  Speaker 2: mean they use everything they can. And and then there's
• 1:57:22
  Speaker 2: home court advantage. You know, animals are safer in spaces
• 1:57:26
  Speaker 2: where they know they have escape routes. You know, they
• 1:57:29
  Speaker 2: know where the predators are. They know who the predators are.
• 1:57:32
  Speaker 2: All that stuff is very important. So you come in
• 1:57:35
  Speaker 2: and you do make it chaos. I don't you know.
• 1:57:40
  Speaker 1: I want to tell you a story though. It's kind
• 1:57:42
  Speaker 1: of what you're talking about in the way with humans.
• 1:57:45
  Speaker 1: So my buddy, my buddy. I have a buddy in Hawaii,
• 1:57:47
  Speaker 1: Danny Bolton, and they have a they have a coffee plantation,
• 1:57:51
  Speaker 1: like a family property, and he's got all these bananas
• 1:57:54
  Speaker 1: banana trees. I think at once upon time they were
• 1:57:58
  Speaker 1: like cultivated intentionally, but now it's just like scattered banana trees.
• 1:58:02
  Speaker 1: I was out there with my kids and they're trying
• 1:58:04
  Speaker 1: to find a like a bundle of like ripe bananas,
• 1:58:07
  Speaker 1: which you can't find because everybody's always in there getting
• 1:58:09
  Speaker 1: the bananas. He says, Though, if you really want to
• 1:58:12
  Speaker 1: find right bananas, you gotta go. They have this pile
• 1:58:17
  Speaker 1: where they make their own fish based fertilizer, So they
• 1:58:21
  Speaker 1: have a place where they're really like they're rotting down
• 1:58:24
  Speaker 1: fish carcasses. He says, I guarantee you'll find right bananas
• 1:58:29
  Speaker 1: there because no one wants to go there. Oh, so
• 1:58:35
  Speaker 1: you go down to the rotten fish pot and it's right,
• 1:58:38
  Speaker 1: bananas all over the place, because it's like he just
• 1:58:41
  Speaker 1: finds over the years that people are like they hit
• 1:58:44
  Speaker 1: that wall of stench and they and they go look
• 1:58:47
  Speaker 1: for bananas somewhere. I tell you that's and it worked.
• 1:58:51
  Speaker 1: There's like right bananas.
• 1:58:53
  Speaker 2: You know, that's animal behavior. That's perfect animal behavior. That's
• 1:58:57
  Speaker 2: exactly how that's exactly how you should think about deer
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 2: here in the woods.
• 1:59:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:59:01
  Speaker 3: I think we'll be remiss if we have a gray
• 1:59:04
  Speaker 3: squirrel expert here and we don't hit on like you
• 1:59:08
  Speaker 3: got to tell us like what's cool about gray squirrels
• 1:59:10
  Speaker 3: and their noses? And I don't know if we want
• 1:59:12
  Speaker 3: to talk about caching.
• 1:59:16
  Speaker 2: Okay, Well, I mean so my PHG thesis they remember
• 1:59:21
  Speaker 2: where they bury their nuts, And recent work we did
• 1:59:25
  Speaker 2: in California was that squirrels, when they bury nuts, we
• 1:59:30
  Speaker 2: gave them a random series of nuts of different species.
• 1:59:35
  Speaker 2: They organize them by species so that they would move
• 1:59:41
  Speaker 2: so that the walnuts are here, almonds are there, hazel
• 1:59:45
  Speaker 2: nuts are there, Like.
• 1:59:46
  Speaker 3: You give them a pile and there'd be three of each.
• 1:59:48
  Speaker 2: No, no, we give them one at a time so
• 1:59:50
  Speaker 2: that they didn't know what was coming next, so they
• 1:59:53
  Speaker 2: all of a sudden, we give them a walnut, and
• 1:59:55
  Speaker 2: they carry the walnut that far. We've actually also showed
• 1:59:59
  Speaker 2: an earlier study that they measure the weight of the
• 2:00:02
  Speaker 2: nut by shaking it. So if you watch it, squirrel,
• 2:00:06
  Speaker 2: give a scroll a nut, put it in the nut
• 2:00:08
  Speaker 2: in the mouth. They go like that. And that's just
• 2:00:11
  Speaker 2: like if you had something really light and you wonder
• 2:00:14
  Speaker 2: how heavy is that you do that and so it's
• 2:00:16
  Speaker 2: four sequels and masstimes acceleration. It's Isaac Newton. I got
• 2:00:21
  Speaker 2: to you know, I get to say that it's true.
• 2:00:24
  Speaker 2: But they measure it, and then depending on how heavy
• 2:00:27
  Speaker 2: the nut is, they carry it farther away from the
• 2:00:31
  Speaker 2: source tree where all the other squirrels are. You don't
• 2:00:33
  Speaker 2: you want to get it far away and cash it
• 2:00:37
  Speaker 2: so that other squirrels don't find your cash. So the
• 2:00:41
  Speaker 2: bigger the nut, the farther they cash.
• 2:00:44
  Speaker 3: It, and it's more valuable.
• 2:00:46
  Speaker 2: It's more valuable. And they not only that, but then
• 2:00:50
  Speaker 2: if it's really valuable nut, they cash them further apart,
• 2:00:54
  Speaker 2: so that really if one squirrel finds it, then they
• 2:00:58
  Speaker 2: start looking like this, they don't find the next one.
• 2:01:01
  Speaker 2: So if you give them polio completely, that's exactly the
• 2:01:05
  Speaker 2: same thing, you know. And so you've got the density
• 2:01:10
  Speaker 2: of a hazel nut is like this, an almond is
• 2:01:13
  Speaker 2: like this, and a walnut is like that, you know.
• 2:01:15
  Speaker 2: And so if you give these squirrel a random series
• 2:01:18
  Speaker 2: of nuts, you give them a nut they make, they
• 2:01:21
  Speaker 2: weigh it, then they go out and cash it, and
• 2:01:25
  Speaker 2: they're cashing it in the walnut area, and then they
• 2:01:28
  Speaker 2: come back and say, almond. Now they've got to go
• 2:01:30
  Speaker 2: cash in the almond area. And then they come back
• 2:01:33
  Speaker 2: and they cash, you know, and every time they go
• 2:01:36
  Speaker 2: out they have to remember where the other one was,
• 2:01:39
  Speaker 2: so they have to keep the the density right, yeah,
• 2:01:44
  Speaker 2: and they do that because we're marketing it.
• 2:01:47
  Speaker 1: Like can you can he keep how many walnuts? Can
• 2:01:50
  Speaker 1: he keep tracking?
• 2:01:51
  Speaker 2: We don't, we don't. We don't know. They cashed the
• 2:01:53
  Speaker 2: houses probably three thousand a year of gray squirrel and
• 2:01:56
  Speaker 2: and we know that in the lab they can remember,
• 2:02:00
  Speaker 2: you know, they can accurately remember like seven of ten.
• 2:02:03
  Speaker 2: But I you know, we no one's figured out yet
• 2:02:07
  Speaker 2: how to measure how much they remember in the in
• 2:02:10
  Speaker 2: the field. The thing is the squirrels are actually they
• 2:02:13
  Speaker 2: cash in you know, August September, and then they're they're
• 2:02:18
  Speaker 2: cashing in their area, in their home area, and so
• 2:02:21
  Speaker 2: they are out they're active all winter. And if you
• 2:02:24
  Speaker 2: look at a squirrel November December, I mean all winter,
• 2:02:27
  Speaker 2: they're out there sniffing the ground and you'll see them
• 2:02:31
  Speaker 2: sniff the ground even through snow and sniff and then
• 2:02:34
  Speaker 2: they'll but if there's like just leaves and they're like
• 2:02:38
  Speaker 2: checking cashes, and then they they and then they'll put
• 2:02:40
  Speaker 2: the leaves back on it and they'll go the next one.
• 2:02:43
  Speaker 2: And then sometimes they'll dig them up and move them.
• 2:02:45
  Speaker 2: So they're constantly managing them, you know, all all winter.
• 2:02:49
  Speaker 2: So it's I don't think they actually have to remember
• 2:02:52
  Speaker 2: them for nine months. I mean they eat them, they
• 2:02:54
  Speaker 2: cash them in August, they finish them, you know, April
• 2:02:58
  Speaker 2: something like that, and so but not I mean there
• 2:03:01
  Speaker 2: are birds that cash them, Clark's nutcrackers, you know, cashs
• 2:03:05
  Speaker 2: pinion seeds in August September, and then they may not
• 2:03:09
  Speaker 2: retrieve them until March. And so those really under deep snow.
• 2:03:13
  Speaker 2: So those animals, they really are remembering exactly where they are.
• 2:03:16
  Speaker 1: But a squirrel's constantly fiddling with them and passing over
• 2:03:19
  Speaker 1: them and re smelling them.
• 2:03:21
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but they can remember, but they don't
• 2:03:25
  Speaker 2: have to. I mean some mammals are I mean, squirrels
• 2:03:27
  Speaker 2: are interesting because they've got really good memory. But they
• 2:03:31
  Speaker 2: they can also smell, whereas most birds. There's actually I
• 2:03:35
  Speaker 2: just saw magpies, yester. I love magpies. Magpies actually have
• 2:03:39
  Speaker 2: a good sense of smell, and they can if you
• 2:03:42
  Speaker 2: coat a raisin in cod liver oil and bury it,
• 2:03:45
  Speaker 2: a magpie can find it. That was the study showing
• 2:03:48
  Speaker 2: that because they they're carrying eaters, they're probably you know,
• 2:03:52
  Speaker 2: like ravens and magpies, they're probably attracted to smells. But squirrels,
• 2:03:57
  Speaker 2: squirrels can do both. They can smell or they Yeah,
• 2:04:01
  Speaker 2: you get starting squirrels. You know, it would be another
• 2:04:03
  Speaker 2: three hours.
• 2:04:04
  Speaker 1: So I remember. But we had a squirrel expert on
• 2:04:06
  Speaker 1: one time years ago.
• 2:04:09
  Speaker 2: John was John Brows.
• 2:04:11
  Speaker 3: Yeah, pulled it out.
• 2:04:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah he's doing this up. See. I remember he's an
• 2:04:17
  Speaker 1: expert on this. I remember reading in headlines. I remember
• 2:04:21
  Speaker 1: at one point in time reading in the headline that
• 2:04:23
  Speaker 1: someone's like, squirrels can't that they they don't get their
• 2:04:29
  Speaker 1: own cash nuts any more reliably than somebody else's. That's
• 2:04:33
  Speaker 1: not I mean, that's not true.
• 2:04:34
  Speaker 2: Not true. I mean that that's what you know. I
• 2:04:36
  Speaker 2: mean I've been literally studying this since nineteen eighty one.
• 2:04:39
  Speaker 1: So they're more likely to go find their own than
• 2:04:42
  Speaker 1: they are to find somebody else.
• 2:04:43
  Speaker 2: Yes, And what I saw in I just like like
• 2:04:48
  Speaker 2: ten yard by five yard arena where I had hand
• 2:04:51
  Speaker 2: raised squirrels that were you know, and what would I
• 2:04:54
  Speaker 2: put in decoys? Their own cashes and then decoys. And
• 2:04:57
  Speaker 2: if a squirrel came up and there were like two
• 2:04:59
  Speaker 2: nuts right next to each other, one was his and
• 2:05:01
  Speaker 2: one was a decoy, if he'd hit the decoy first,
• 2:05:05
  Speaker 2: he'd keep going. So I think his memory was like,
• 2:05:09
  Speaker 2: there's one there, but if I find one, so he's
• 2:05:12
  Speaker 2: not using smell because he was, then he would go
• 2:05:15
  Speaker 2: to the one that was like two inches away, but
• 2:05:16
  Speaker 2: he wasn't. He would just go on to the next one,
• 2:05:19
  Speaker 2: so like a little name going boom boom, boom boom.
• 2:05:22
  Speaker 2: And I studied the same thing in kangaroo rats and
• 2:05:25
  Speaker 2: Miriam's kangaro rats, which are they hoard like squirrels? And
• 2:05:30
  Speaker 2: I found sex differences there that was interesting. The males
• 2:05:33
  Speaker 2: were more likely to use odors. They are more likely
• 2:05:37
  Speaker 2: to find cases that still had seeds in them, and females.
• 2:05:43
  Speaker 2: We had a bunch of landmarks around, and females as
• 2:05:46
  Speaker 2: long as the landmarks were there, females were super good
• 2:05:49
  Speaker 2: at that. And males didn't use the landmarks as much
• 2:05:54
  Speaker 2: and they were more likely to use their nose. But
• 2:05:57
  Speaker 2: that's a whole other area of research I've I've studied
• 2:06:00
  Speaker 2: for a lot is sex differences in landmark use in
• 2:06:06
  Speaker 2: kangaroo rats and and and humans. And you know, male
• 2:06:09
  Speaker 2: refrigerator blindness. I'm sure you've heard of that. No, this
• 2:06:14
  Speaker 2: is where you know the a man goes to refrigerator
• 2:06:19
  Speaker 2: and says, where's the butter? Oh yeah, and opens up
• 2:06:22
  Speaker 2: and says, I don't see it. I don't see it,
• 2:06:24
  Speaker 2: and then you know it's actually right right there. So
• 2:06:27
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's just.
• 2:06:28
  Speaker 1: I call that all three of my kids refrigerator blindness.
• 2:06:31
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, terrible.
• 2:06:34
  Speaker 2: Anyway, shut out. Do you see similar things in kangaroo rats?
• 2:06:37
  Speaker 2: That's all I'm saying.
• 2:06:38
  Speaker 1: You know, So you're when we're your when we're your
• 2:06:41
  Speaker 1: book on squirrels be ready.
• 2:06:42
  Speaker 2: So probably I'm hoping it'll be come out like fall
• 2:06:46
  Speaker 2: of twenty seven, and what will be called it's called
• 2:06:49
  Speaker 2: The Wealth of Squirrels, and it's it's it's really about
• 2:06:54
  Speaker 2: you know, the economics of of hoarding in squirrels and
• 2:06:59
  Speaker 2: and all everything I've just been talking about.
• 2:07:02
  Speaker 1: It'll be like is it intended as a popular book.
• 2:07:04
  Speaker 2: It's going to be a popular book.
• 2:07:06
  Speaker 1: For Joe Blow not not like not like an academic.
• 2:07:09
  Speaker 2: Okay, and can I I mean, you know, I've never
• 2:07:14
  Speaker 2: done this before, so I'm a little cautious saying this,
• 2:07:16
  Speaker 2: but but that's what. I've got a contract for this
• 2:07:18
  Speaker 2: book from Harvard University Press, and they've agreed to let
• 2:07:23
  Speaker 2: me write it as as a story actually, so it's
• 2:07:26
  Speaker 2: really going to be a kind of a fictional story
• 2:07:29
  Speaker 2: that is. So it's it really should be a fun,
• 2:07:33
  Speaker 2: fun read. But it's going to be very you know,
• 2:07:36
  Speaker 2: dense science. It'll all be based on science. No, no humans,
• 2:07:42
  Speaker 2: just just squirrels. So experiment. We'll see. It's gonna John,
• 2:07:47
  Speaker 2: I mean, people like, it's going to get peer reviewed too,
• 2:07:49
  Speaker 2: so it's gonna the biology is going to be they
• 2:07:53
  Speaker 2: won't accept it if the biology isn't absolutely right. The
• 2:07:56
  Speaker 2: Wealth of Squirrels, The Wealth of squirrels.
• 2:07:58
  Speaker 1: Okay, So stay listeners, stay too, And for doctor Lucia F.
• 2:08:02
  Speaker 1: Jacobs The Wealth of Squirrels, and thank you for coming
• 2:08:06
  Speaker 1: on today and explaining everything about how animals experience their
• 2:08:10
  Speaker 1: world through smell.
• 2:08:12
  Speaker 2: Thank you. This has been I have learned about and
• 2:08:16
  Speaker 2: I've really enjoyed this. It's been great.
• 2:08:18
  Speaker 3: Thank you very much.
• 2:08:19
  Speaker 1: Thank you,