Latest / Harder Than Life / 143: How One Man Turned Pain into Purpose Through the Outdoors w/ John Mulligan

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143: How One Man Turned Pain into Purpose Through the Outdoors w/ John Mulligan · Harder Than Life

• 0:07
  I'm Kelly Siegel, and this is Harder Than Life, a podcast about self-love, self-awareness, business, and health. We tell outrageous stories and boil everything down to simple, practical advice you can start using today. Let's get living.
• 0:23
  Welcome back to the Harder Life Podcast. I'm your host, Kelly Siegel. We have today John Mulligan, affectionately known as Johnny Utah. He is a multifaceted individual with rich tapestry of experiences. Transitioning from a dedicated career in law enforcement, where he served as a narcotics detective,
• 0:43
  John ventured into the realms of entrepreneurship and outdoor media. He is the host of the primal divide, a show that delves deep into hunting adventures and outdoor lifestyles. Welcome, my friend. How are you? I'm doing awesome, man. I kind of you kind of turned into Bruce Buffer there for a second. I was over here getting hyped up just hearing that edification. Yeah.
• 1:07
  Well, we just shortened your intro a little bit. We've been throwing this together like we know what we're doing. I've just told you before we hit record, we had Johanse on last week. We were at this group where we clean eats and met a bunch of absolutely vulnerable but badass men. And you were one of those as well. And you told me your story. And I was like, whoa, I got to have this guy on the podcast. So tell us your backstory and how you ended up with this cool name, Johnny Utah. Yeah.
• 1:35
  um i i grew up in kentucky and my degree is actually in horticulture my next door neighbor he was in undercover narcotics with lexington metro and he just had the coolest stories ever you know and we would be like we'd be grilling out in the backyard and i'm like dude tell me what you did today and he would tell me some rad story about kicking in a door taking down drug dealers and stuff and he's like man you never really talk about your job and i was like well
• 2:04
  It really wasn't that cool. You know what I mean? I spent the day in a bobcat augering holes. He's like, well, why don't you go do it? I was like, what are you talking about? I thought law enforcement was one of those deals. Like it was a legacy thing. You know, your granddad had to be a cop. Your dad had to be a cop. You know, it was just a family thing. And he's like, yeah, it kind of was that way. But now they're just looking for like good, honest, athletic people that are willing to do the job. And I can't say that my heart was set on doing it forever, but I thought worst case scenario,
• 2:32
  I get to learn defensive tactics. I get to get really proficient in shooting and firearms. I get to learn about the law. It'll make me a more rounded person, and I'll give it a shot. 16 years later, I was still there. But I got an opportunity to work in a multi-jurisdictional drug task force unit, and we were attached to FBI, DEA, and ATF units in Cincinnati, Ohio. Yeah.
• 2:58
  So when I got assigned to this working with this FBI safe streets unit, one of my buddies that he was a he was actually a business partner on a company that I owned on the side. And he goes, dude, you're like you're the real Johnny Utah. And he was referenced in the movie Point Break, the nickname. I didn't really think about it. We were at a trade show and he said it to me at a bar after hours. And the next day at the trade show on the floor, people were just walking by and they're like, Utah, give me two.
• 3:25
  I'm like, I've never seen a nickname stick overnight. And that was it. It just, I became John of Utah and just rolled with it. How did you make the transition from crazy Cincinnati cop to the outdoor media stuff? And tell us that story. Yeah. So the backstory on that, it's just kind of crazy. Like when you're doing undercover narcotics or even law enforcement and you're living in the same community that you're policing, i.e.,
• 3:53
  putting bad guys in jail, they're getting out of jail. You're not the most popular person in town, right? So there's no going to the bars. There's no going hanging out in public, really, especially when I was undercover, there was really no hanging out in public. So your options are drive an hour away to go even to a restaurant, to go out to eat with the family. So one of my buddies said, Hey, you, you ought to, you ought to get into deer hunting. And he,
• 4:19
  You would think growing up in Kentucky, that was something that we did, but we had cattle and that's what we you know, that's what we did at my at my dad's place. But in central Kentucky at that time, we didn't even really have a lot of white tail deer to chase. Yeah.
• 4:34
  So when I moved to Northern Kentucky in that Cincinnati, Ohio Valley area, there's a lot of whitetails. So the hunting is, you know, fruitful. I didn't know anything about hunting. I went and I wasn't going to ask anybody to teach me. So I just went to the public library. I checked out a bunch of books on like whitetail 101, hunting 101 and self-taught myself everything. And I knew that I could go into the woods with a bow or with a gun. And I probably wasn't going to run into a heroin dealer.
• 5:03
  Chances are I wasn't there wasn't going to be a gangbanger hanging out in the trees, you know, chasing whitetails. So that gave me my outlet, something I could go do. And what I later found out, it wasn't years later, I knew that I felt more calm and at peace when I was in the woods.
• 5:21
  But then I started to realize what I was doing is I was creating a separation from that stress and giving myself an outlet. Right. And I felt this connection that when I was in the woods, that's that's just where I feel calm. That's where I feel safe.
• 5:37
  I have a connection with the woods. I have a connection with the animals. And I just, I feel great. So, and you know, people will make references like the concrete jungle versus the woods. It's two different places. So it gave me that separation, gave me that division. So I got into hunting, loved it, was just doing it for fun and enjoying. And I'm a big meat eater. And why not go get organic meat in the woods, right? So continued to do that.
• 6:04
  I approached a company that I wanted to become a part of the company. I ended up purchasing part of a business called Wicked Tree Gear, which was a folding handsaw, which is still today sold in every Cabela's and Bass Pro in America.
• 6:19
  I became a part owner of that company. We blew it up. It got huge. We ended up selling it off to an equity group. And at the time that I sold the company, I was also starting to film some of my hunts. But again, I had to be careful putting my face out there in public. So as far as the company went, my business partner was the face of the company and I was just behind the scenes sales marketing.
• 6:41
  You know, my buddy said, what do you know about sales and marketing? I sold narcotics and bought narcotics undercover. That's the best marketing training you can ever get. Because if you think about it, marketing, you have a very, very small window to connect with your consumer and to convert into sales.
• 6:58
  There's no different than me going into a crack house. I have to convince them immediately that I'm okay. I'm safe. They can relate to me and they either need to buy or sell drugs with me. So that's marketing one-on-one on a street level for me. I didn't get any formal training in college, but if you can walk into a crack house as a minority sometimes and not get shot, that's marketing. I did it. I became a salesman.
• 7:25
  That's adapting to your environment. And folks listen to this podcast all over the country. So Cincinnati is no joke. We're in Detroit and it might be a little bit rougher in Detroit, but it ain't much. Cincinnati is tough, guys. So this guy did forced hard for 16 years. And then now he goes out into the wilderness and does more. Where are you at now? You're in Montana, right? No, I'm in Southeast Iowa. Iowa.
• 7:52
  Yeah. First of all, how did you end up at that event? How did we cross paths? How do you end up in an ecosystem and end up on the harder to life podcast? Where, how do you know? Soren X winter strong. So a good buddy of mine, Kobe folks is a long time attendee of the winter strong events. And I want to say it was maybe four years ago. He was at a winter strong and he called me from there, from the event or five, maybe five years ago, he called me and he said, dude,
• 8:19
  This is your people. You, you of all people need to be at this event. And I went to the first winter sore next winter strong. And I remember Bert given his opening monologue speech and he described thin air, deep, deep water.
• 8:35
  And if anybody's ever been to Sorin X or understands Bert Sorin and his community, it was basically as you climb the mountain, the air gets thinner and people start to die. This is too hard. They either stop or they retreat and go back down to lower elevation where they feel comfortable.
• 8:55
  And the people that continue to endure through the pain and through the suck of it all and just keep grinding eventually make it to the top of the mountain where the air is the thinnest.
• 9:07
  You might have started with a thousand people at the bottom of the hill, but only maybe five or ten make it to the top. Those five or ten people, those are your people. So that's kind of the way he described, you know, the Winter Strong events. And so Kobe's like, dude, this is this is you. You're the guy that makes it to the top of the mountain and you need to you need to come to one of these. So he basically told Bert.
• 9:29
  hey, John's coming to this. You need to invite him. So I didn't know Bert or any of the Sorenx guys at the time, but I went to several events, and Don was one of the first guys that I met. And I'm like, look at this little spark plug right here. I'm like, this dude is wider than he is tall. I'm like, and we just hit it off, and we started talking business, and we were like,
• 9:49
  You know, Don's been getting more involved in hunting and things like that. So I'd lend him a few tips and tactics on hunting and that, you know, and whatnot. And then he was giving me more tips and tricks about strength and conditioning and dieting and foods and stuff like that. So that's how him and I hit it off. And, you know, Don's Don's one of those guys that if I have a business idea, he's one of the first phone calls I make and say, hey.
• 10:13
  am I thinking something stupid here? Is this going to work? Am I, am I reaching for the stars too much? And he's actually, you know, and he's bounced some ideas that he's had with clean eats off me as well. And, and I, you know, I gave him my two cents, but yeah, Don's, Don's one of those extremely respected guys in my inner circle and, you know,
• 10:32
  So whenever he said he wanted to do the men of the swamp, I'm like, yeah, dude, I'm in. I actually had other things scheduled that weekend that I canceled. And like I said, you know, I drove all the way from Iowa, you know, down there to North Carolina. And as we all suffered through the cold temperatures there that weekend, it was well worth it.
• 10:51
  Somebody asked me about cold plunges. Oh, is that my IT company, National Technology Management? The guy's going, do you do those crazy cold plunges? I said, I just got back where all of us idiots were swimming in 50-degree water like it was summertime. And I got pictures sent to me of you and me next to each other. I'm like...
• 11:12
  No, no, that was not fun. Yeah. No, thanks. Well, and I got into those cold plunges from Brian because Brian Peters used to go, you know, I met him also through the Winter Strong events. So in him and I have stayed in contact. And then I started working with a cooler company that makes a giant oversized cooler so I could start doing cold plunges, you know, at my house. And I've really dived into the breathing and.
• 11:38
  As much meditation as it is for fitness, right? I just like things that are hard. I like things that challenge me. I always reference that line from there's the Brad Pitt movie, Troy. And somebody was like, oh, I would never do that. And he looks at them and he's just like, that's why no one will ever remember your name.
• 11:56
  And so people ask me about even my hunts that I go on. What's your favorite hunt you've ever been on? And it's not the biggest animal. It's not the craziest adventure. I always reference a hunt that I had in Saskatchewan when it was negative 39 degrees. And I'm like, that was my favorite hunt because that was the hardest conditions. And when you tell people that they're like, I would never, there's no way, there's no way I'd ever go hunt when it's negative 39 outside. And I'm like, yeah.
• 12:24
  That's why no one will ever remember your name. And so those are the cool things for me.
• 12:30
  So my audience is probably like, what the heck am I, is this Johnny Utah doing on the thing? So you just got a glimpse of it. And then when you start talking to him, you know, if you, you can't see him on the, on the show, but he's, he's a big man, all tatted up, strong, tough dude who actually has a big heart and reminds me of a better version of Cameron Haynes. And when you get to talk to Cameron Haynes, he's got these big stories. And in fact, you had a story about Cameron and, and,
• 12:58
  So if you guys haven't heard of him, look him up. How did you come across Cameron Haynes? So our paths crossed just kind of through the hunting space. Our inner circles and outer circles have overlapped a lot. But at the time, he was an Under Armour athlete.
• 13:14
  And word the rumor mill was that he was leaving Under Armour. And so Under Armour approached me. I kind of knew it was coming. And I remember one of the first conversations we had, I was like, oh, I get it. I'm like the overstocked.com campaigns, you know.
• 13:31
  I'm like, you guys needed a tattooed muscle guy with a beard to fill the void. And they're like, no, no, no, that's not why we're calling you. That's not it. That's not it. You know, he left Under Armour and I basically filled his spot as the new Under Armour hunt athlete over there and did that for three years up until just two months ago that Under Armour decided to get out of the hunt game completely. Yeah.
• 13:53
  So I'm no longer with Under Armour, but it was a good run. I had a good time with those guys. You know, while it was fun, while it lasted. Was there a specific story? I mean, we had a bunch with Johanse. Was there a specific story that really tugged on your heart? What was the message that you took away from it?
• 14:10
  So I remember a call, actually, a call that I got dispatched to. There was some sort of a domestic dispute that had transpired before I got there. The male part of it had just decided he was done. He was checked out. But he was I know this is going to sound really dark. He was probably too weak of a person. He had decided he wanted to end his life, but he was too weak of an individual to do it.
• 14:40
  And there's a lot of things wrong in that mindset, right? Getting to that point in life and things like that. She actually called the police and...
• 14:49
  which is exactly what she should have done. You know, there's an armed person that is obviously off kilter, and she was not protected and felt safe. So she called the police, hoping us to get there and resolve this situation. So we go into it, and the first thing in the back of your head is you're thinking suicide by cop.
• 15:10
  He can't do it. He's going to force us to do it. We're going to walk in the door and he's going to point a gun at us. And obviously in protection and within the laws of what I'm allowed to do to protect myself, I'm going to have to take this person's life. And now that's on me. And so we walk in the house. He doesn't aim a gun at us. He just looks at me and smiles, puts a gun to his temple, and he pulled the trigger. Oh, yeah.
• 15:39
  And I had been going through a lot of stuff myself, a lot of stress and had some dark stuff going on. And the sad part is, is I looked at him and, you know, your first thought is your first thought. You don't get to choose the first thought that comes in your head. It just happens. Right. And the first thought that actually came to my head is I went, man, this guy's really lucky. He just got to check out.
• 16:04
  You know, whenever you go on a long road trip and you finally your head hits the pillow and you're just like, oh, finally, that was the feeling that I had for that guy. And I'm like, I don't know what he's going through, but he doesn't have to deal with it anymore. He just found relief. Now, this is all happening in a millisecond. And I immediately I'm like, whoa, whoa, what am I?
• 16:28
  I shouldn't be thinking, having those thoughts. I love my life. Things aren't that bad. I would never consider doing that. But my first thought was that. And so that was the first time in life that I had to do some inner soul searching to make sure that I'd never, that thought never entered my head ever again. And I found ways to deal with it. You know, the one thing in policing that they teach you is they teach you how to be tough, take people to jail,
• 16:54
  And just compartmentalize every bad thing that you see. But you're never actually taught how to grieve and process what you saw. Like we were sitting in the sauna that day. And I remember telling you 27 dead bodies. And I watched seven of them actually take those lives. That's 30, what?
• 17:16
  34 people that I've got a second. I want you to back up because that was my next question. I want you to get into that because that I was joking about you talking about that stuck with me. How does tell the story? We're going to wrap up in the next couple of minutes, but tell that story. It is so impactful.
• 17:35
  Yeah. So during the process of policing and through my undercover career, I started to kind of keep mental note of it. I had seen dead bodies at a funeral, going to visitations, you know, family members, you know, things like that. But how many people have actually watched people die or watch someone take their own life?
• 17:57
  And a lot of times through policing, being a first responder, you're the first person on scene, you know, somebody calls and says, Hey, grandma just passed away. Or I just walked in the house and you know, my boyfriend was hanging from barn rafter with a noose around, you know, around his neck, walking into a hotel room and somebody had taken a 12 gauge and can do their own head. And you're the first person on scene. So,
• 18:25
  So 27 people, 27 dead bodies I encountered in the career, and then an additional seven that I actually watched either take their life or end it themselves. And like I said, the one that I referenced in the hotel or the apartment complex, I can still see the guy's smile looking at me whenever he smiled just when I came through the door. And those are things that are hard to, they're hard to get out of your head
• 18:54
  Um, and it, you know, it does make you appreciate life. And for a while, I spent a lot of time trying to dissect why would somebody do that? And then I realized that is a never ending path and I was never going to find the answer. So I abandoned the thought and just try it. You just try to put it out of your head. And I think a lot of times with policing and military, um,
• 19:21
  it's a compartmentalization of emotions. And the analogy I've always used is some people are born with a thimble. Some people are born with a five gallon bucket.
• 19:33
  I, whether it's fortunately or unfortunately, I was born with like a 55 gallon drum and I could pack a lot in that thing. But at the end of my career, I put a lid on it and I buried it 10, 12 foot down in the ground to never open that barrel up again. Well, like with anything, eventually that barrel starts to leak because I never dealt with any of that stuff. I never processed it. I never grieved. I was never taught how to grieve.
• 20:03
  You know, when my father passed away, my wife was the one that actually came to me and she said, you have to process this one. You don't get to compartmentalize this one. You're going to have to deal with it. And when it finally broke, it was about a week after he passed away. I actually was on a hunt and I had just shot a deer and I picked up my phone. I went to the contact list and I started scrolling through the D's to get to dad. And I actually called the number and I got his voicemail. I'm like, that's weird. I got...
• 20:33
  Oh, now I know why I got his voicemail. Yeah, because he died a week ago. And I sat there on the ground. And when I say ugly cried, it was like the seven-year-old ugly cry. Couldn't get my breath and just bawled and bawled and bawled. And it's like literally the third time in my life I've ever cried.
• 20:51
  because my dad had taught me when I even when I was a kid, you don't cry. You're not allowed to cry. So even from my father, I was taught to compartmentalize. And then in policing, I was taught to compartmentalize. And I found out that those things were actually eating me up from the inside out. So, you know, I think.
• 21:12
  There's a lot of cool thing about being men. And I'm a big proponent of men are men. And we should be men and we should be tough. We should be capable and we should be ready. But I think there also is a place that you got to have a small circle of men that you can confide in and you can let go of those emotions and deal with that stuff. If not, find a way.
• 21:33
  that allows you to deal with that. You know, mine became hunting and spending time in the outdoors, you know, hiking the mountains, you know, that became my therapy. And oddly enough, getting choked out and choking other people out has become therapy and the gym. You know, I have a lot of hobbies where I get to let out a lot of emotions, because I probably still to this day really don't know how to deal with emotion.
• 21:57
  Yeah, we're going to have to follow up on that because that's why I resonate with you because I've gotten through that. It's what you're saying. I bonded because we had two big guys literally hugging and crying. And that was what was cool about that.
• 22:13
  that group of men is it was safe to say and do whatever you wanted. Now, if you put one woman in there, we would all be tough guys, but that was beautiful. But I, I just want to tell you that the guy that I see and you come across as tough, but you ain't tough. You're a big, you're a big teddy bear, man. You're full of love and you got to, there's a lot of depth to you. So 34 people take their lives or be.
• 22:38
  unbelievable man and I got it I always have to give the same announcement that we can fix anything but death you were put on this earth for a reason there is always an alternative to suicide so if you're thinking about it you're listening to this please reach out to me and I will get you help or I will help you and Johnny you've been a blast and I want to stay in touch and let's continue this conversation because I remember that conversation talking about God and
• 23:07
  And I remember leaving and I took notes and I had to sleep on it and I never got to talk to you about it. So it was fascinating. You were a fascinating person.
• 23:15
  Fascinating to me, this hunting. And, you know, there's a lot of people like, oh, does the animal know it's being hunted? And I read Cameron's book, and hopefully you'll get one out. And there is a lot of skill and strategy and mental perseverance that's involved in this. Do you want to share some of that with the audience?
• 23:37
  Yeah, it's, you know, again, like I said, when I got into hunting, it was really just something to go do. Initially, I didn't have this passion. I didn't grow up hunting. I wasn't taught hunter ethics, as far as you know what that means. Once I got into it.
• 23:54
  I switched from a rifle to a bow. And then I kind of say that's when the switch, there was that transition because now I'm no longer shooting animals, hunting animals, hundreds of yards away where they don't even know I exist.
• 24:09
  You know, my average bow shot and I've shot hundreds of animals with a bow. My average bow shot is like nine yards, maybe 10 yards. So we're talking 25, 30 feet. That's intimate. That animal hears you move, could possibly hear you breathe.
• 24:29
  Every they can smell you. And a lot of times we're doing this where I have a camera crew up in the tree with me. So now that's an extra person putting off movement, scent, you know, everything else. So it's more of a challenge. And I'm not anti gun hunting at all. Just for me personally, like yourself.
• 24:49
  Would you rather go do CrossFit? Would you rather go do yoga? Would you go lift weights? I've seen you. I know you lift heavy weight and that's what you like to do. So same difference with hunting. I love all forms of hunting and I appreciate all forms of it. But my connection has always been to bow hunting because I feel like that's more sporting. It's it's going back to the old days of stick and string, bow and arrow. Yeah.
• 25:15
  And I used to be super competitive with the animals and with myself. I felt like if I didn't kill an animal that I failed. And I've even evolved as a person to where sometimes the animal wins and that's okay.
• 25:30
  you know, they're wild animals. When I go into the woods, I'm on there, you know, like in a sporting event, they've got home court advantage. I'm the visitor because they know every tree. They know every leaf that's displaced. They know where their home is. They know where their hideaways are. And I'm just there for three, four or five days sometimes. And I have to learn it now.
• 25:53
  There's digital assets that have come to play online mapping, and I can read topos, and that's where some of that extra skill and studying comes into play. I know what time it is. They don't really, animals don't have a clock.
• 26:05
  Their day is their day. So I'm kind of getting to be a visitor and it's like going to battle, like Coliseum kind of stuff. You know, I'm going in there and seeing if I can outsmart them. And like I said, if they win, that's awesome. They should. And I learned something from it even when I fail.
• 26:23
  But it's that perseverance to continue. You know, I always say motivation is bullshit. Discipline is the only thing that matters to me. That's what gets me up and takes me to the gym every morning. That's what puts my 47-year-old body back on the mats in jujitsu. That's what makes me get up and go out when it's 39 degrees to go hunt.
• 26:46
  when my businesses are not doing good, that's the nights that I'm up at two o'clock in the morning trying to figure it out and keep grinding. So anybody that's an entrepreneur knows that there's no days off. There is zero days off, right? Everybody's like, oh man, it must be nice to own a couple of companies and set your own schedule.
• 27:06
  Are you shitting me? I've never set my own schedule. My schedule is dictated by my businesses like, but I love it. That's that's what gets me up. I like the challenge. I thought I was the only one I had a 2 a.m. wake up this week. Something was on my mind and it just I slept for three, four, three hours, woke up and boom, and that's the that's the negative of and even all the work that we do on ourselves, both physically and mentally.
• 27:33
  you still have those nights and you just, you just got to roll with it. But the funniest line of the whole weekend that, that stuck with me and this is going to sound ego centric, but it was funny. And I told people about it when I go back was when we were going from the cold plunge to the, to the sauna, you look at me going, Oh,
• 27:50
  A lot of big guys usually look a little bigger out of their clothes. You look 10 times bigger. I'm like laughing. I'm like, well, thank you. Well, we were, it was so cold. Everybody, I don't know about you. Sometimes I had four and five layers on and, you know, I looked at you and I was like,
• 28:09
  Kelly's a stout dude, you know, like, and that comes from the law enforcement days. Even though I'm in a friendly environment, my second nature is I look at everybody and I keep myself in practice. Like, okay, that guy wouldn't be a problem. Okay. Kelly. Yep. He would be a problem.
• 28:26
  You know what I mean? And then we were cold plunging. And actually what I told you is I was like, yeah, we can't stand next to each other because if there's any photos, I don't want to be the small guy in the photo. You know, the funny thing, it's well documented in my story and I shared it with everybody. It was, you know, this was all my tough exterior to prevent the beatings from my parents. And now it just opens up doors. I wanted to ask you about
• 28:55
  ethical hunting and the approach to the conservatorship so how do you approach conservation and ethical hunting in your practices that's important to listeners that that a don't first of all tell us what ethical hunting is i know what it is but i just want to make sure that listeners do and then uh and then how do you ensure that the conservation and ethical hunting in these hunts
• 29:19
  So North America has a conservation model, and other countries have a different conservation model that we adhere to. Obviously, a lot of the ethical hunting laws are written state to state, and it varies. Fortunately, we do have a pretty good biology standpoint in North America. They monitor the number of animals that they have. It can be...
• 29:44
  a diminishing supply, right? If we overhunt animals, then we're doing harm. So typically the way the states will do the draw systems and the number of tags that they allowed is to keep checks and balances in
• 30:00
  You know, if there's no hunting whatsoever, that's when you have overpopulation and it can lead to disease and just a lack of food and things like that, you know, for the animals. So a lot of times I simply say hunting is conservation because.
• 30:15
  All of the money that goes into buying a tag and things like that, that all goes back to the state in conservation efforts. Hunting pays for way more conservation than PETA could ever imagine. And also ethical hunting for myself personally. I'm targeting the mature animals.
• 30:34
  I'm taking out the older, older of the herd. It's time for the kind of the young bulls to come in with more, you know, with more strength. You hope that they're reproducing and keeping a good strong bloodline and things like that going. So that's an effort that you'll see with a lot of hunters as they will target the mature animals. And somebody, they might say, well, I'm shooting for the biggest antlers.
• 30:58
  Well, chances are you're probably also going to be targeting inadvertently an older animal as well, if it's the animal with the largest antlers and things like that. So the other part of it is, too, is I've always said I'll never apologize for being a hunter, but I also never want to give ammunition to the anti-hunters. And by that...
• 31:19
  All of my photography is super clean. I don't like to do the bloody stuff. But at the end of the day, this is what we're doing. You know, in simple terms, just to put it out there.
• 31:31
  If I'm shooting an animal with a bow and arrow and I'm using a broadhead, the idea is to inflict as much violent carnage as I possibly can to make a quick ethical kill. I don't want that animal to suffer for two or three hours. When I send an arrow through, I want that animal to expire 10, 30 seconds, something like that. Right. That's what we hope for.
• 31:55
  And if it doesn't happen, that's when a follow-up shot happens. I love animals to death. I'm a pet owner. I'm trying to kill animals. I'm doing it in an ethical way. And it leads into an argument, too, with rifle hunting versus bow hunting, which is more ethical. And that comes back to the skill set of the hunter itself, right? Yeah.
• 32:17
  And so anti hunting gets has a big voice. And sometimes as hunters, well, you've seen this, like even in bodybuilding, we're our own worst enemies. We should be on the same team, but we'll see bodybuilders attack other bodybuilders. You're on steroids. You're not lifting the right way.
• 32:35
  And the same thing happens in hunting. There's a lot of smack that gets talked back and forth. And it's like, guys, we're our own worst enemy. We have anti-hunters and PETA coming after us, but instead we're helping them out by fighting each other, by saying, oh, that guy's not that good of a hunter. He made a bad shot. And...
• 32:54
  Anybody that says they've never made a bad shot on an animal has simply just not hunted or hunted enough because it's going to happen. Steph Curry doesn't hit every single three pointer. He hits a lot of them, but he doesn't hit them all. So, and he's one of the best of the best when it comes to aiming at a target. So,
• 33:11
  You practice, you do the best you can, follow all of your hunting laws and rules and regulations. I actually, when I moved to Iowa, I contacted the state, went and got certified, went through the time, went through the process to become a certified state hunter safety instructor. So twice a year, I volunteer my time. I don't get paid a dime for it, but I teach children and sometimes adults, but to get their hunter education card, which is required by law to buy a license as an adult, which
• 33:40
  in the state of Iowa and actually all states. Fortunately, they are reciprocal from state to state. But I teach hunter safety and hunting regulations and hunter ethics every year. I do a full class, usually 35 kids per class.
• 33:54
  The follow-up question of that, Johnny, is do you eat every – I mean, do you consume every animal that you kill? Everything. The only animal that I've killed that I haven't eaten is coyotes. And a coyote won't even eat another dead coyote. So that should tell you something. But –
• 34:11
  And by by hunting coyotes, that's another conservation effort, because by killing coyotes, I'm helping out the turkey population, the young whitetail fawn population, you know, and another small game rabbits and squirrels and things like that. Fortunately, a lot of states for almost every state coyotes, you don't even need a license for it's a nuisance animal. You know, everybody agrees that we need to get rid of as many coyotes as we can.
• 34:35
  So, but yeah, I, I don't believe in hunting animals that I'm not gonna, that I'm not gonna eat. Um, that's just me personally. I have the best job in the world because honestly, I know nothing. I've never been hunting. It does not interest me, but I find you interesting and I find your authenticity and you have this big loving kind energy about you. That's why I asked you to come on. And, you know, this is what people need to do. They just get people in rooms with people that aren't.
• 35:04
  that don't do things that you do and look at the world a little different than you and ask them questions. You know, I don't know what my audience, if they're into hunting or not, or if they find this interesting, I just find you interesting. And I, and I'm learning a ton. And I know that Joe Rogan thinks it's the coolest thing in the world. So there's gotta be some reason because everything happens for you, man. It just does, you know, you didn't end up in crack houses in Cincinnati.
• 35:30
  Not for a reason. It ended up getting you over to Under Armour and on the Heart of the Life podcast. And we're going to talk about some of these because I'm fascinated by all the businesses that you're a part of. We've talked about the primal divide, bourbon barrel calls, and then work more hours. Tell me, it's like you sell drugs, do hair, and babysit. What's going on here?
• 35:52
  Yeah, so work more hours. That was kind of a life motto. And it started, my dad and I, and he's long, he's passed away. But when my dad was still alive, he made a deal with me. And I was getting pretty close to driver's license age.
• 36:11
  And he said, I want you to save your money. Whatever you save on your first car, I'll match it. You save two grand. I'll throw in two grand. Now you got four grand to buy a car. And that's it. That's your kickstart in life. And, you know, that's the only thing you're going to get out of me. So I said, okay, well, how do I make more money? That's more than I got, just so you know. Yeah. Yeah.
• 36:33
  I got an ass whooping. And he said, I got plenty of those for sure. I never got hugs or anything like that. That was my dad's way was he wasn't around a lot and money was supposed to suffice and make everything better. So I said, you know, and I talk about my dad positively and negatively at times, but he did teach me a very, very strong work ethic. And that's what I've always held on to. But he said, you just got to work more hours. And I'm like, work more hours.
• 37:02
  Like, shit, man, like, I'm going to school, you know, in high school, I'm running track and cross country, like, how do I work more hours? And he's like, find a way, just work more hours.
• 37:13
  That's what I thought he meant on the surface. And then as I got older, I realized what he was telling me was anything you want to do in life that's worth doing, you have to put in the time. If you want a better relationship with your spouse, you got to put in the time. If you want to make more money or advance in your career, you can't just sit back and let it happen. You know, a good plan today is better executed than thinking about it next week. So you just have to put in the time and work more hours, outwork everybody.
• 37:43
  If you're the hardest worker in the room, you don't have to be the most talented. But if the hardest worker will win every time. And I've seen that play out a thousand times over in my life, personal life, professional life, hunting, narcotics, you know, anything I've ever done. If anytime I fail, I can find exactly where I got outworked.
• 38:05
  or I didn't put in the time that I should have put in. So work more hours just became this underlining motto for everything I did in life. And I would tell people, my buddies would call me and they're like, man, I really want to get this promotion, work more hours. You know, man, my wife, things aren't going well in my relationship. You know, we're fighting, we're at each other's throats all the time. Okay. Work more hours.
• 38:29
  Like just put in the time. That's all you got to do. And, and I like to keep things like, you know, the whole kiss, like keep it simple, stupid. I like to keep everything as much as I can at one dimensional, just work, just put your nose down and just literally just grind it out. Just get it done. So that was something that my dad taught me. And then we kind of started into this whole business of just selling t-shirts and hats that just said, work more hours on it.
• 38:55
  And the funny thing is I was wearing one of those shirts a couple weeks ago. I won't say where I was at. I was in a small town. I went into a gas station and the lady was like, work more hours. She's like, shit, I'm trying to work less hours. And I'm like...
• 39:12
  And that's why you're working at the gas. And I'm not, no offense to people working at a gas station. I'm just saying, if that's your highest aspiration, cool. It's not my highest aspiration. You know what I mean? And like, because this lady, I mean, just the simple conversation we had, she's better than that. She could do better than that. She was very intelligent. And I wish people had bigger aspirations to strive to be more and to do more and not have that mindset of like, less is more. I just want to get by.
• 39:41
  Yeah, you struck a chord right there with me. I'm sitting there thinking because we just, we're launching the Heart of Life coaching program and we're learning there's a lot of people that don't want to put in the work. And I don't have a magic pill. No. I believe Heart of Life was started to teach people how to work. But if you don't want to work...
• 40:00
  Hard work works and the harder you work, the luckier you get and everything works if you work it, but you can sit back and be a victim. So anybody that's like, it's still stuck in that first level, I can't help you. It's after you've working your brains out
• 40:16
  And you're not afraid of that, that I can take you and get you unstuck and get you successful. And then when you're really successful, I can get you unstuck and make you significant. That's what buying back your time and focusing on your passions and exactly what razor focus and doing delegate and elevate and getting things on.
• 40:38
  Man, the people that you need is funny because you can see them all in your DMS and all in your freaking comments, just knocking everything you do. And the only reason you're that big is because you take steroids. It's like, yeah, right. You know what, bro? I've been working out for 32 years. This is 32 years. And frankly, it's also because it had to protect it. Nothing makes you bigger and more angry than fighting for survival. So that's what I was. So I, it hits a strong chord for me because that's where everything is equal.
• 41:08
  Effort. We're all created equal. We can all put in the same effort. And then you get up to the rare air where it's like, okay, I've achieved a little success. But up until there, we're all on equal footing. So outwork everybody. I'm at the point right now, Johnny, that I couldn't possibly work anymore. And I have got to buy back time. And I've got to delegate.
• 41:32
  and hold people accountable. And I'm doing the surrender thing. I'm leaving after these podcasts today and I'm, I'm going to my house in Florida to just relax for the weekend because I, I literally, I worked. Down near a hundred hours this week and last week. And it's cause we got the podcast trying to, we're trying to get that to number one.
• 41:52
  We're launching the brand again. The book number two is coming out. I own an IT cybersecurity company, which is crazy right now with all the ransomware attacks. You saw the UK took down Twitter or X, allegedly. But life is insane. But I love it. There is nothing more motivational than,
• 42:18
  Then loving what you do. Joy is the best alarm clock. So I enjoy it, but you got to listen to the body. Have you gotten to that point yet? I'm a couple of years old. And you have gotten to the point where you realize that the more that there's a lot of diminishing returns where the harder you work, you actually go backwards. Yeah. So I just, it's funny because I just had this conversation with a buddy of mine and I still don't think that he understands the point that I was making. What I was trying to convey to him is.
• 42:47
  In five minutes time, I'll use an example, small case study. Let's say in five minutes of effort, I can achieve 98%, but in an extra hour to get that other 2%, I've had to step back and realize how valuable my time is and how limited my time can be.
• 43:08
  That 98% is going to have to work. You know what I mean? And then I like to think that I'm a perfectionist, but I also realize that that extra hour can be spent way positively in another category, in another area. Yeah.
• 43:24
  that if we can hit 98%, let's roll, because that's going to work. I also have been one of those people that will step back and evaluate the fires. And I say, whichever fire is burning the hottest, that's going to get more of my attention. And that's where more gasoline needs to go. And I'm okay that if one fire ends up burning out. Okay.
• 43:46
  We've got one thing over here that's really, really set ablaze. Let's just keep bumping more, you know, put more gas on that fire and continue to grow that one.
• 43:55
  I've got several different companies that, like I said, between Bourbon Barrel Calls, you know, Primal Divide. I have Johnny Utah Creative, which is also my freelance marketing company. What I do really well with that is I work with smaller companies that are launching a product. They come to me with the product and it's a one-stop shop. I provide their photo content, whether it's lifestyle or white box images for, you know, for a website, thumbnails type stuff.
• 44:24
  We'll do their video and produce their commercials. I'll align them with a couple of podcasts to be a guest on a couple of podcasts that I feel fits their niche and their brand. And that's it. It's kind of a one package deal. We come in, we handle this for you, and that's it. I'm out. It's your business to run. So we actually just wrapped up a project with a company last week.
• 44:47
  and got them off and running. And I hope that they have wild success, but it's a convenience thing. And the biggest thing that I found,
• 44:59
  For me, my business is speed. I can operate a lot faster than a lot of companies because I am a one-man band and I have a couple of part-timers. So we can operate at a really, really high speed. They called on a Monday, sent the products on a Tuesday, and their edited commercials and photo content was uploaded to Dropbox on Friday night. Okay.
• 45:22
  That's kind of like the old Kinko's, man, 24-hour turnaround type printing, you know what I mean? So that's one of the things that we do. And it's funny because people are like, man, you have all these different companies. But if you think about the synergistic effect of all of them, they're all involved in photo, video, marketing, sales, generating, conversion. They all actually sync together.
• 45:45
  If I find something that works really well for my personal company, Bourbon Barrel, I'll take that ad or marketing strategy to a freelance company that I'm working with as well. So sometimes I'll even utilize my own companies, personal companies, as like a Petri dish to test different things to see what works for people. And I've always said I feel like I'm a student of entrepreneurship. When I was seven years old, I started my first business.
• 46:14
  And back in the day before Sam's Club, it was called Pace. I don't know if there was anybody that heard of Pace. But I started out with those blow pop suckers.
• 46:25
  like Mountain Dew and Pepsi. I started taking them on the school bus and I would sell them for 50 cents a can of Mountain Dew. I'd sell them for 25 cents a blow pot, but I had good margins because I was buying in bulk at pace. Now, again, I'm a seven year old and I've already understood the concept of net profit, gross margins, and,
• 46:46
  Cost of goods sold. I knew all of this stuff. The problem was I couldn't scale because I was on one school bus, on one Bluebird bus, and the Bluebird's only going to hold X number of kids. So I said, the only way to scale my business is I have to have more products, and now I got to tap into school.
• 47:03
  And I had a good little thing going at my elementary school until they shut me, shut me down and tried to expel me for running a business in school, a concession business. But I did really well. So that was my first business. My second business, there was a local golf course in town. But because of child labor laws, they couldn't put me on their payroll. So I researched the child labor laws myself and found out that if I wasn't an employee and I wasn't on the books and I only worked for tips, I'd be a good job.
• 47:31
  then I could do it legally. So I approached him and I said, I'm not looking for a paycheck. I don't want you to pay me. I understand child labor laws. I just want to work in the pro shop and I want to shine shoes at the golf course for extremely wealthy golfers that were coming off of the greens and teas. You know what I mean? I would shine up a set of foot joys or Nikes or whatever they had and, um, and strictly just work for tips. Um,
• 47:55
  and made insane money as an 11 year old shining shoes average 25, $30 tip per, you know, per set of golf cleats. And I think my best tip is I got $500 one time. I got stiffed a few times here and there. Ironically, those were probably the smartest business guys that were at the golf course, but nonetheless I did really, really well. So those are my first two businesses and I,
• 48:19
  Like I said, that was between the ages of seven and 11. So I love entrepreneurship. I'm not a millionaire, but I love business. I love looking at other people's businesses and seeing how they network and how they got to where they got. I love hearing the stories of Apple and Bezos and all those guys starting in a garage. That stuff I geek out on. But like you said, the older we get,
• 48:45
  The one offset is I do realize that time is the one thing that it doesn't matter how much money you have, you can't get it back. So that's where I temper that 98%. Sometimes 98% is going to have to be good enough because I know that I need to dedicate my time to either personal mental health, my family, and to other business endeavors.
• 49:06
  That's what I love about you. You sell them popping candy as a seven-year-old and then you're shining shoes at 11 year old. There's this, this, this, this, this, why the humility comes across with you. And it's so, it's just, I, you know, I wrote my book. My first job was I had to empty a jar of pee for my stepdad, who was a drunk. So, uh, there's nothing that, that.
• 49:25
  is too good for me i will as a matter of fact a lot of times when my my it team are running cables i i go pull cables with them and they're like no no you're the boss no no i i am not too proud
• 49:37
  to beg and to work hard. I love doing it. The one company I don't know much about is this. So what inspired you for the creation of the bourbon barrel calls? And how do you source the materials and the products? Tell us about that. So I love hunting turkeys. And born and raised in Kentucky, bourbon is like Kool-Aid to me.
• 49:59
  It solved many of coughs and sore throat remedies as a kid growing up. You know what I mean? And, you know, hey, mom, my throat is sore. I got a cough. Here, do a shot of this maker's mark. It'll make you feel better. So luckily, Child Protective Services never knew about any of that stuff. But I was in Kentucky. I was having a conversation with a buddy of mine, and we were talking about
• 50:25
  you know, saturated markets and how sometimes it's hard to break through if you're in a category. You know, could you imagine trying to launch a tennis shoe company nowadays? Like the amount of capital it would take would just be insane. Right. So he said, what about turkey calls? And I'm like, good Lord, that is one of the most saturated markets there is. And I said, but I'll prove it to you. You can have a successful company in a saturated market.
• 50:52
  But what companies lack nowadays, I feel, is a solid, legitimate backstory, an authenticity of a backstory. So I had an eight-hour drive from Kentucky back to Iowa, and I wrote the voice memo on the iPhones. I spoke in there my entire business plan that I'm going to source Kentucky bourbon barrelheads,
• 51:17
  because I know the thickness is what I need of the wood that I can turn these into pot calls for calling turkeys in for hunting. The conservation side,
• 51:28
  I'm not cutting down a tree to make a new turkey call. Because of my horticulture background, I knew that the rate of deforestation of white oak trees in America is faster than the growth of reforestation of white oaks to get to white oak acorn bearing mature white oak trees. Ironically, turkeys love to roost in white oak trees. It's one of their preferred trees to roost in at night.
• 51:55
  To be bourbon, it has to be stored in a brand new white oak charred barrel. So you start seeing the full circle synergy, the overlap of all of these elements tie into white oaks. Started a company called Bourbon Barrel Calls. We make custom turkey calls out of reclaimed bourbon barrel heads. And the strikers even have a hot wax stamped logo on the top of the striker. And the wax comes down a little tip of the hat to maker's mark.
• 52:23
  The business actually operates out of the basement of my house. And I launched the company in November of 2019, which is a very odd time because that's peak whitetail season. Turkey season is in the spring. But what I realized is starting a company with, I started the company with $338, but all of the turkey call companies would be doing their Facebook ad spins in the spring.
• 52:53
  Not a single turkey call company is promoting their business in the fall. So I knew that I could come in and I could get ad spin for pennies on the dollar. I took a chance, launched a company in off-season. None of my competitors are ramping up their marketing efforts. So I kind of came in in the back door when, you know, caught them with their pants down, so to speak. And we sold over 2,000 calls already. And every single one of them I've made in my basement myself.
• 53:21
  That's crazy. That's just keep being in the right place at the right time. You know, your authenticity, the long answer to say that your authenticity absolutely screams about you and you're just a salt of the earth guy. Is that what you talk about in your podcast mostly? I do. Yeah. And I think that's a lot of when I'm a guest and on podcasts, that's what.
• 53:44
  you know, that's what seems to come up a lot. You know, I've always said one of the best compliments I've ever received other than I'm, I'm strong. Um, or I have a, I have a good rear naked choke is whenever people say, you know, they'll meet me at a, at a shoot or they'll see me at a gas station or something. And either fans of the TV show. And after a short conversation, they're like, dude, you're exactly the same guy in real life as you are on the TV show. I'm like, that's how it's supposed to be. Cause I'm not playing a character.
• 54:13
  I'm just a hillbilly from Kentucky that loves to hunt and share his stories, man. And I'm blessed every day that I get to do what I love to do.
• 54:22
  I, you know, that's the highest compliment you can give me. You see, so people say that like you, when I, when they meet me, they're like, you're just like you are on social media. You're just like you are in your pocket. And I don't know any other way to be. And I just am myself. And, and really, I think that just being comfortable in your, in your skin and who you are and probably having to bite, scratch and claw your way up to, I'll say relevance, but maybe success. I, I, I struggle with the success, but, um, yeah.
• 54:51
  So you don't get this far without values. So how do you what values do you aim to instill through your through your who you are, but mostly your brands and your media and just what values are important to you?
• 55:03
  Work ethic. I used to always say when I met somebody for the first time, that's how I judged them. And let's face it, racism is still a thing. Stereotyping is still a thing. It's out there still in the world. Somebody might say, well, I'm 18 years old. There's no way I can be friends with somebody who's 50 because I can't relate. There's an age gap. I don't look at any of that stuff. I look at somebody's work ethic. And that's how I determine how much of my time they're going to get.
• 55:31
  Now, I know that there's good humans in the world that are lazy, but we're never going to connect. Yeah, we're never going to connect. Right. I'm never going to respect them completely as a person. So I can be friendly with somebody who's lazy. You know, I met my wife in a gym.
• 55:51
  And everybody said at the time, one of my buddies said, meet your wife in church or the gym. And I met mine in a gym right out of the gate. She showed me discipline. She was showing up to the gym after a work day before she went home. And I'm like, okay.
• 56:08
  Check one, she's got it. And then, of course, my dad, being an Irish family, you know, he had to confirm that she was 100% Irish and everything else. So I could date her. But, yeah, I mean, work ethic is the big thing. And I think that's what can people see through my social media and through my show.
• 56:27
  They're like, dude, you're like the damn Energizer bunny. Like, you don't stop. I'm like, and I don't even put out half the stuff that I'm doing. It's just when I remember to film something or take a photo. So I think that's the thing for me is, and, you know, the sidebar to that is, is I suffer from a little bit of PTSD. I didn't know it at the time. It was years later before I realized that I suffered from PTSD, but I started to see that idle time is when I get depressed.
• 56:57
  And I start thinking about some of the dead bodies or I start thinking about some of the hot calls and some of the stuff that I saw in my old career. So for me, I don't need to take medicine. I just got to stay busy. And as long as I stay busy towards my passions, then I stay I stay even kill and and I keep that drive. What's your next steps for you? What do you got? What do you got going on? And how can the listeners support you?
• 57:22
  Instagram and Facebook, Johnny Utah Hunt or Johnny Utah Hunt official can follow along with, I almost call it the adventures of Johnny Utah. That's kind of what it's turning into. But I've got a trade show. And speaking of humility, I've got one of my TV show partners. They're shorthanded at a small consumer show in Illinois. I'm like, yeah, I'll go there. I'll help you. I'll work a trade show booth for you.
• 57:47
  And it's not beneath me. 20 bucks is 20 bucks, you know? So that's kind of the way I look at it. And what's good for them is good for me. You know, all rising tides floats all ships. So I've got that coming up. And then after that, we roll right into hunting season. We start off in South Carolina, start chasing turkeys and pigs and, you know,
• 58:07
  And a lot of that content will be coming out there. I recently just spent a lot of time with the Fieldcraft Survival guys out in Utah this past weekend. And a lot of that content's coming out. And I'm really excited about a lot of that. We dive into a lot more of that, my background, policing, and, you know, things like that. So that's going to be super cool. And then we'll start filming the first episodes, and they'll start dropping live as...
• 58:32
  as we get them edited up and as the season follows along. But social media is the best way to keep up. Like I said, with the daily, just the stuff that I do. And you'll see an undertone of do work, do more, push hard. Where can I get these episodes at?
• 58:48
  So my TV show is on the Waypoint channel. So the Waypoint channel is a streaming channel on, I believe it's 15 different streaming platforms right now. Sling, Fubo, you know, all that kind of stuff. Samsung, Vizio TV. There's a little bit of content on my YouTube channel on Primal Divide. I love it.
• 59:08
  that it's it's just so there's you're multi-dynamic and multifaceted let me just say that you know hey folks john mulligan johnny utah is harder than life thanks for being on the show bro thank you very much and i want to read that book that's sitting over there behind your shoulder i'll get you one got a new one coming out soon
• 59:25
  Thank you. Please rate and share this podcast. I'm active on all social platforms and love to hear from my Segal supporters. Each and every episode is sponsored by my company, National Technology Management, the easiest and best IT company to do business with. Delivering peace of mind with technology every day, even simplifying cybersecurity. Visit TrustNTM.com for more info. Until next week, be harder than life.