Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Journalist Susan Hendricks Takes Us to Delphi for Unimaginable True Crime Murder Case

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Journalist Susan Hendricks Takes Us to Delphi for Unimaginable True Crime Murder Case · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

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  Speaker 1: That's B-A-B-B-E-L dot com slash P-O-D. Start your journey to
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  Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. Welcome back to Misinterested.
• 0:59
  Speaker 1: I'm your host, Rachel. You could tell. So as you
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: guys know by now, I'm fascinated by true crime stories.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: I really become obsessed. It's all I want to talk about.
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  Speaker 1: I have a million questions and I always think I
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  Speaker 1: can solve it. Do you guys ever feel like that? Well,
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  Speaker 1: today's guest is Susan Hendricks. You may know her because
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: she's like the OG of HLN and CNN. She didn't
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: always do true crime, but she obviously had to cover
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  Speaker 1: some crime stories. And she ended up writing a book
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  Speaker 1: about her experiences covering one of them. The book is
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  Speaker 1: called Down the Hill, My Descent into the Double Murder
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  Speaker 1: in Delphi, and it details the murders of two young girls,
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  Speaker 1: Abigail Williams and Liberty German. The investigation that followed and
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  Speaker 1: how the town and the family were forever changed. This
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  Speaker 1: book is part true crime and part memoir as this
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  Speaker 1: case became personal to her and telling the stories of
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  Speaker 1: these two families became her mission. On February 14th, 2017,
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  Speaker 1: the bodies of Abby and Libby were discovered on a
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  Speaker 1: bridge in Delphi, Indiana. Not on the bridge, but kind
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  Speaker 1: of behind the bridge. As the investigation unfolded to bring
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  Speaker 1: the killer to justice, the story got extensive media coverage.
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  Speaker 1: Law enforcement released a video and audio recording found on
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  Speaker 1: one of the victim's phones that they believed to be
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  Speaker 1: of the killer. A man's voice said, guys, down the hill.
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  Speaker 1: And a grainy photograph of a man with his head
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  Speaker 1: down was circulated. Later, they ended up putting out more
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  Speaker 1: extensive video of him walking across this bridge. They ended
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  Speaker 1: up asking for the public's help, and the tips started
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  Speaker 1: to flood in, but to no avail. After years of sketches,
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  Speaker 1: false starts, and questioning numerous subjects, they were no closer
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  Speaker 1: to finding the culprit. Then on October 26, 2022, a
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  Speaker 1: suspect whose name was not recognized, not floated before, Richard Allen,
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  Speaker 1: who we came to find he had worked at the
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  Speaker 1: CVS in that same town, he was taken into custody
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  Speaker 1: and charged with the murder of two girls. He's pled
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  Speaker 1: not guilty. And for a year, there's been like total chaos.
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  Speaker 1: First of all, we know he pled not guilty. And
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  Speaker 1: for a year, there's been total chaos since he's been arrested.
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  Speaker 1: So at some point, we've had word that he's actually
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  Speaker 1: admitted to the crimes in conversations from prison with his wife. But,
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  Speaker 1: you know, he has not said this publicly at all.
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  Speaker 1: We don't know anything from his mouth. It's just sort
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  Speaker 1: of hearsay. He's gotten his trial moved to 2024 because
• 3:21
  Speaker 1: in 2023, they had all sorts of issues going on.
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  Speaker 1: His court appointed attorneys ended up being removed by the judge.
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  Speaker 1: And now in January of 2024, There's going to be
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  Speaker 1: a hearing to see if he can get those court-appointed
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  Speaker 1: attorneys reinstated and possibly the judge removed. I don't know
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  Speaker 1: how they're going to deal with getting a fair jury
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  Speaker 1: because the case has become so big and so much
• 3:43
  Speaker 1: has gone on around it. So anyways, get ready for
• 3:46
  Speaker 1: an engrossing conversation with Susan. We really talk about the
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  Speaker 1: details of the case, what we know, what we still
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  Speaker 1: don't know, and how this case became personal to her.
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  Speaker 1: I think you guys are going to take interest in
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: this because the case isn't over yet. It hasn't gone
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: to trial yet. It was such a big deal when
• 4:00
  Speaker 1: it happened. And then there was just not a lot
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: of movement. And to hear the story of the families
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  Speaker 1: involved is what becomes important because you really rarely hear
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  Speaker 1: from that side. You always hear about who might have
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  Speaker 1: committed the murder or the girls themselves, details about them.
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  Speaker 1: But it's interesting to get the perspective of someone who
• 4:16
  Speaker 1: was covering it and someone who got close to the families.
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  Speaker 1: So her relationships with all these involved. From the families
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  Speaker 1: to the law enforcement, it gives us a firsthand look
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  Speaker 1: inside this dramatic story. So please sit back and enjoy
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  Speaker 1: my conversation with Susan Hendricks. Susan, thank you so much
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: for joining me on Misunderstood in Boca. Thank you for
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: flying in. I so appreciate it.
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  Speaker 2: It's so good to be here.
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  Speaker 3: I feel like I haven't seen you in a long time,
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  Speaker 3: and I know that you follow true crime, obviously, and
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  Speaker 3: I follow your show, so it's an honor.
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  Speaker 2: To be here.
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  Speaker 1: Oh, thank you. It's funny because the last time I
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  Speaker 1: saw you and the only time I really met you
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  Speaker 1: was at your wedding.
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  Speaker 2: At my wedding.
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  Speaker 1: Which is so random. And I was invited by someone
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  Speaker 1: I had known from Vegas. And it's actually embarrassing. I
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  Speaker 1: can't even remember the poor guy's name.
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  Speaker 4: Doug.
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  Speaker 1: That's right. Hi, Doug. But he was so kind, and
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  Speaker 1: I had known him in Vegas very, like, peripherally, like,
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  Speaker 1: not at all. And somehow I got invited to your wedding.
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  Speaker 1: It was such a fun event, but it was like
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  Speaker 1: this very weird, random invite because we really didn't know
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  Speaker 1: each other.
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  Speaker 2: I've gone to weddings like that before.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, which were really fun.
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  Speaker 5: Yes, they're fun.
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  Speaker 1: But oddly enough, like, I had no connection with him, really,
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  Speaker 1: so that was what was uncomfortable. I feel like I
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  Speaker 1: connected more with you and your husband or the people
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: at the wedding. And he was like face down drunk
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  Speaker 1: by the end of it. So that's all I remember.
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  Speaker 1: And I don't think I ever spoke to him again,
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  Speaker 1: but I really like him. I think he's a great guy.
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  Speaker 3: But I was, I'm so glad that you went because
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  Speaker 3: I was able to meet you.
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  Speaker 1: Yes. Yes.
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  Speaker 2: It was great.
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  Speaker 4: Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So I want to get into this book that is
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  Speaker 1: out that you've written. But before we get into that,
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  Speaker 1: I really want to know, you know, people, when they
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  Speaker 1: look at you, recognize your face and recognize your voice
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  Speaker 1: and feel so comfortable with you because you've been doing
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  Speaker 1: this for so long. But Rarely do we know the
• 6:30
  Speaker 1: person behind who we're always looking at and getting our
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: news from and that we trust so much. So my
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: first thing for you is I want to know how
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  Speaker 1: you got into this because I feel like people think
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: they know you, but they don't.
• 6:41
  Speaker 2: And that's a good question.
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  Speaker 3: I was in college and I think maybe it's evolving
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: and changing. I hope so that you have to have
• 6:48
  Speaker 3: it all figured out when you're that age.
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  Speaker 2: I didn't.
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  Speaker 3: I was at Arizona State and my roommate, though, was
• 6:54
  Speaker 3: in the Walter Cronkite School of Journalism. And I was
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: signing up for the next semester classes. And I ended
• 7:00
  Speaker 3: up taking a communications course with her because she was
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: in it. And the more courses I took, the more
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  Speaker 3: I started to think I could do this.
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  Speaker 2: I want to do this.
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  Speaker 3: And Walter Cronkite, when I was in college, came to speak.
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  Speaker 3: And it was a packed room, of course. He didn't
• 7:15
  Speaker 3: have to necessarily be in that class. But for me
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  Speaker 3: to hear him and for him to talk about being
• 7:20
  Speaker 3: a part of history.
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  Speaker 2: And I know my grandmother. I mean, everyone. There were
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  Speaker 2: like four channels. And that's what you had to watch.
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  Speaker 2: And I remember.
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  Speaker 3: uh, witnessing when he announced that the president was dead.
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  Speaker 3: And that hooked me in, in terms of being a
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  Speaker 3: storyteller and being able to be a part of history.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: But I read in your book that you were essentially
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  Speaker 1: really shy.
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  Speaker 2: Oh, extremely shy.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 6: Right.
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  Speaker 2: So I'm giving you the college. Okay. So that's, I
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  Speaker 2: knew what I wanted to do. Did I know that
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  Speaker 2: I could do it? No.
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  Speaker 3: And it was so strange because growing up in New
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  Speaker 3: Jersey with my parents and their friends and growing up
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  Speaker 3: with their kids, uh, my mom's good friend's son said
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  Speaker 3: to me, I didn't know you were at CNN. I
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  Speaker 3: didn't even know you could talk until you were 10
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  Speaker 3: because I hid behind my mom's leg and my older
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  Speaker 3: sister is very outgoing.
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  Speaker 2: So I was able to kind of hide behind her.
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  Speaker 3: I was an introvert and shy and would open up
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  Speaker 3: once I really got to know people.
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  Speaker 2: And you think, well, then why would you go into
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  Speaker 2: that field?
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  Speaker 3: Well, I soon realized that it's very different than public speaking.
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  Speaker 3: Once you get used to doing it initially, it's really
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  Speaker 3: just an innate object that you're talking to the camera
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  Speaker 3: and connecting. And by no means was I good out
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  Speaker 3: of the gate. I mean, my first job was at
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  Speaker 3: a cable station in California. And the first story was
• 8:38
  Speaker 3: lawn bowling at a retirement center. And I thought I
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: made it.
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  Speaker 2: I'm on TV. I made it.
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  Speaker 3: It's lawn bowling. And I still have those VCR tapes
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  Speaker 3: with my eyebrows and a suit.
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  Speaker 2: I was dressing the part.
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  Speaker 3: It was like 110 degrees, I remember, in Palm Springs,
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  Speaker 3: the KSQ affiliate as a reporter. And I was out
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  Speaker 3: there ready to go. dressed for the part, but had
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  Speaker 3: a lot of learning to do.
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  Speaker 1: Right, right. And are those things in the field, was
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  Speaker 1: it mostly you had to ad lib? Were you writing
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: your own stuff back then?
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  Speaker 2: Usually breaking news.
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: So if there was a fire that broke out, they
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  Speaker 3: sent you and a photographer in the news van and
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: then you were on.
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  Speaker 2: And that's where I really, I enjoyed that.
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  Speaker 3: It's the adrenaline of telling what's happening behind you and
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  Speaker 3: being able to interview people there on the spot.
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  Speaker 2: So a lot of breaking news and then If it
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  Speaker 2: was a.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: Slow news day where there were some, they'd send me
• 9:27
  Speaker 3: to a council meeting, I remember.
• 9:30
  Speaker 2: Go find a story at a council meeting.
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: And if you're not familiar with council meetings, they can
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: argue about someone's fence and having it be an inch
• 9:39
  Speaker 3: over them where it should.
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: Be for hours.
• 9:41
  Speaker 3: So it really is with limited resources unless there were
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: breaking news stories, the ability to tell a story.
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  Speaker 2: And I remember a colleague of mine as a reporter.
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  Speaker 2: He had been there a while. I was new and nervous.
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  Speaker 2: we went to a council meeting and I said, well,
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  Speaker 2: no one's here. No one's here. Let's go.
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  Speaker 3: And he said, well, isn't that the story? Don't always
• 10:01
  Speaker 3: expect to go in and see the obvious story. What's
• 10:05
  Speaker 3: the nuance here? What is the story?
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  Speaker 2: Why aren't people here?
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  Speaker 3: And so that taught me a lot to say, look
• 10:10
  Speaker 3: at things differently when telling a story.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 1: So how did you find yourself at HLN and CNN?
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  Speaker 7: Hmm.
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  Speaker 3: I was in Palm Springs at the KSQ affiliate, and
• 10:20
  Speaker 3: then I was a morning anchor at the NBC affiliate.
• 10:24
  Speaker 3: And they asked me before I was hired, it was
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: the competing station. And it kind of is like that
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: movie Anchorman, where they want to pull you from the
• 10:31
  Speaker 3: competing stations.
• 10:33
  Speaker 2: Have you anchored? I said, somewhat.
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  Speaker 3: And I was lucky that I was given that opportunity.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: But it was a morning show, three hours a day,
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: every day. with a guy, Gino Lamont. He's still there.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: He's now with the CBS affiliate. And we still keep
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: in touch.
• 10:47
  Speaker 2: It's funny. And my first day putting on a mic,
• 10:51
  Speaker 2: they said, mic check, Susan.
• 10:52
  Speaker 3: And I'm yelling at the top of my lungs.
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: He's like, shh.
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: And I thought, oh my gosh, here goes learning. And
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: I was brutal out of the gate. And then you
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: just had to get comfortable in your surroundings.
• 11:03
  Speaker 1: And it's also really hard to read a teleprompter.
• 11:05
  Speaker 2: It is not for me now, but it is then. Right. Yeah, absolutely.
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  Speaker 2: And everything made me nervous.
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  Speaker 3: I wasn't comfortable on the set in that area, I
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: was more comfortable at that time in the field. So that,
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: that was my kind of safe space to be away
• 11:19
  Speaker 3: and doing breaking news. But then I got this opportunity
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: and I thought, okay, this is where I can be
• 11:25
  Speaker 3: more myself a bit because I know that well-meaning news
• 11:29
  Speaker 3: directors and people who are consultants would say, just talk
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: to the camera like it's your mom.
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: Well, what does that really mean? And it's funny. I've
• 11:37
  Speaker 2: gotten to know Sanjay.
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: Gupta through the years, working with him for years and,
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: We were talking in the makeup room of all places.
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: And I told him that story.
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: And he said, well, that's funny, Susan, because he literally is,
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: as you know, a brain surgeon, just a genius. But
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: he said, I didn't know what I was doing. And
• 11:53
  Speaker 3: they told me to have more energy on the air.
• 11:55
  Speaker 3: And so he just kept smiling and talking really loud.
• 11:58
  Speaker 3: And they're like, stop smiling in his ear.
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  Speaker 2: It's not funny. So you don't really know.
• 12:03
  Speaker 3: It's really what they're saying is the advice is be
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: comfortable in your own skin.
• 12:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: And all that takes is reps and time. I don't
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  Speaker 3: think you do it out of the gate. How can you?
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: Right, exactly. So how did you get into true crime
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: and that being something that you started to cover more?
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: Is that something you liked to cover, you found interesting?
• 12:22
  Speaker 3: And as you know, a story is a story no
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: matter who you have on your podcast. They all have
• 12:28
  Speaker 3: something to say or something to tell, a story from experiences.
• 12:31
  Speaker 2: And HLN was going in that direction.
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: I started when it was headline news, and then I
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: was on Anderson Cooper's show for years doing cut-ins.
• 12:38
  Speaker 2: And as soon as the Casey Anthony case hit.
• 12:41
  Speaker 3: That is when we did wall-to-wall coverage. I mean, you
• 12:45
  Speaker 3: were watching it. It was unfolding. We knew all the
• 12:48
  Speaker 3: attorneys' names, of course, Jose Baez, the opening statements. To me,
• 12:53
  Speaker 3: it appeared as though, and it was, and I think
• 12:55
  Speaker 3: that started back with O.J. Simpson and that trial, meaning
• 12:58
  Speaker 3: people were glued together. to see what would happen, to understand,
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: to have an opinion.
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: Did she do it? Did she kill her daughter? And
• 13:05
  Speaker 2: the numbers kept coming in.
• 13:07
  Speaker 3: People were watching. And Nancy Grace was at the network.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: And we practiced beforehand in terms of what we would do.
• 13:14
  Speaker 3: We were on verdict watch when the verdict came down.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: And we knew to throw to Nancy Grace because she
• 13:18
  Speaker 3: was there in the field. Right.
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: And she was known for covering top mom.
• 13:22
  Speaker 2: Yes. Top mom at the top of her lungs.
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: I watched every night.
• 13:25
  Speaker 5: Yes.
• 13:26
  Speaker 2: So did my mom, her friends. I mean, what do
• 13:28
  Speaker 2: you think?
• 13:28
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 13:29
  Speaker 3: And then her parents on the stand and it just
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: really unbelievable as it was unfolding. It turns out the
• 13:35
  Speaker 3: verdict came in when I was on the air and
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: they said, go to Nancy, go to Nancy, it's in.
• 13:40
  Speaker 3: So I throw to Nancy Grace and she says, we
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: have a verdict and we listened into the courtroom.
• 13:45
  Speaker 2: Not guilty.
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• 17:41
  Speaker 2: It was just stunning.
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: What did you think? Did you expect that?
• 17:44
  Speaker 2: Well, luckily, my father's an attorney, so I would call
• 17:47
  Speaker 2: him and say, what do you think? What do you
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: think of this? And what's this called? Or what's that called?
• 17:50
  Speaker 2: My cheat sheet, if you will.
• 17:52
  Speaker 3: And he said, well, I think they might be overcharging her.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: So if you, that's a risk and that's what I
• 17:57
  Speaker 3: think happened. If you risk going for the death penalty
• 18:00
  Speaker 3: or if you risk, you risk them finding.
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: Her not guilty because of that.
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: Now, I don't know for sure, but I, and I
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: don't know what to think. It's hard when we found
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: out that the body was discovered, that there was duct
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: tape on skeletal remains. So it's like, was this, there's
• 18:18
  Speaker 3: different opinions out there. Was this, and her giving her
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: daughter chloroform to go out at night, but then why
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: the duct tape was this premeditated?
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: Did she even do it? There are opinions out there.
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: And it was unbelievable.
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: And I threw it to Nancy Grace and she said
• 18:32
  Speaker 3: that famous line now, the devil is dancing, the devil
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: is dancing to that.
• 18:37
  Speaker 2: I mean, it was.
• 18:37
  Speaker 3: Infuriating for her because she believes that Casey got away
• 18:41
  Speaker 3: with murder.
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: She had such an opinion.
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: I mean, I absolutely know exactly where I was when
• 18:45
  Speaker 1: that verdict came in. I watched that That trial, I
• 18:49
  Speaker 1: watched before the trial. Of course, I had my own opinion.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: I thought, you know, I was more stunned during those
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: opening arguments or whatever than Jose Baez did, and he
• 18:58
  Speaker 1: changed the entire narrative. That was crazy to me. What
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: I also have thought, you know, since then, I always
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: think about the parents. Like, why did the father... never
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: say that's not what happened. I didn't do these things.
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: I didn't sexually molest my daughter, you know, or the granddaughter,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: whatever they were alluding to.
• 19:19
  Speaker 2: And she was found in the pool the way he
• 19:21
  Speaker 2: presented that.
• 19:21
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 19:22
  Speaker 2: And I've learned through the years, then being a perfect example,
• 19:26
  Speaker 2: you don't necessarily have to prove what's said in the
• 19:29
  Speaker 2: opening statement. So where was the proof that that happened?
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: And also that case was such a, you know, a
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: testament to you can be guilty, but there's a way
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: that you have to prove You know, it's you have
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: to prove the case.
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: Beyond a reasonable doubt is the reasonable doubt.
• 19:45
  Speaker 3: And I think what really fascinated the viewer and myself
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: included were the jailhouse calls to her parents.
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: Just there was so much there.
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: And the behavior.
• 19:54
  Speaker 2: The lies, the constant lies.
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: Remember that police officer followed her to a fake job
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: that she never had?
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 20:02
  Speaker 2: So what else is she lying about?
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: And as a parent, not asking daily, where is my daughter?
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: I need to find my daughter. She was more worried
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: about everyone's perception of her or, you know, so the
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: media definitely portrayed her in a certain way, but she
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: did it on her own.
• 20:18
  Speaker 2: I felt bad for her mother.
• 20:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: And because she's the one that called the authorities and said,
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: my daughter's trunk, it smells like a dead body.
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: If that doesn't point to Casey, I don't know what does.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: But then she's the kind of seemed to do an
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: about face.
• 20:31
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: And then kind of didn't. you know, stand up for
• 20:34
  Speaker 1: the granddaughter.
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: And said, oh, I did the searches. Right. I think
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: in a way protecting her daughter.
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 20:39
  Speaker 2: Which we do see. But I really felt sorry for
• 20:43
  Speaker 2: everyone involved here, of course. Her daughter being killed. But
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: the father, too. I think he fell into a depression
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: after that.
• 20:51
  Speaker 1: Of course.
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: I'm sure. With the lies, the blatant lies. I say
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: lies because were they ever proven? Right.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: But I did think it was weird, as I said,
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: that he's never come out and declared this was not
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: true and in a more in a way that we
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: all wanted him to kind of you know so anyway
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: so obviously there are so many cases over the years
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: that I'm sure struck a chord with you and you
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: got involved in how did this case that you wrote
• 21:17
  Speaker 1: a book about the Delphi murders how did that come
• 21:19
  Speaker 1: into your orbit at the beginning.
• 21:20
  Speaker 3: After Casey as you know we followed the Jodi Arias
• 21:23
  Speaker 3: of course yeah with Travis Alexander and it did make
• 21:27
  Speaker 3: me reflect now after writing the book, thinking back to
• 21:30
  Speaker 3: Travis Alexander's sisters and the family. It's usually lost in
• 21:35
  Speaker 3: the headline of Casey Anthony, of Jodi Arias, of OJ
• 21:39
  Speaker 3: Simpson found not guilty, but it's the names of the
• 21:43
  Speaker 3: accused or the convicted and rarely is it the family.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: So I was sent to Delphi.
• 21:48
  Speaker 3: I remember covering it on the set and interviewing Ron Logan,
• 21:52
  Speaker 3: the man who.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Owned the property where the bodies were found. So I
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: covered it there. And then they said, hey, we're sending you.
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: This is about almost two years later.
• 22:01
  Speaker 3: And I thought, oh, yeah, we cover so many cases
• 22:04
  Speaker 3: that I thought, oh, that's the one with Libby who
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: recorded the phone call. And early on, we called it
• 22:11
  Speaker 3: Snapchat murder. So that's when everything changed for me when
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: they assigned me that story.
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: And so, but up until then, it wasn't something that
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: was eating away at you. And I mean, it was
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: like any other story where I know as a former journalist,
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: you know, you get so many stories that come in,
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: you really have to compartmentalize and you kind of have
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: to end it when you end it and move on
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: to the next one. Not only to protect yourself from
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: really getting invested, but because there's just so much of
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: that coming in at you and you kind of forget
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: by the end of the day, you've sort of forgotten
• 22:40
  Speaker 1: what you've reported on.
• 22:40
  Speaker 2: And the news cycle, as you know, it keeps churning
• 22:43
  Speaker 2: and it keeps going.
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 22:44
  Speaker 2: And I had to say, oh, what? What story is Delphi?
• 22:47
  Speaker 2: Oh yes, with Libby and her family.
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: And then I was reminded of the interview I did
• 22:53
  Speaker 3: with Ron Logan and going there with a producer and
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: spending two days there and meeting Libby's mom, Libby's grandfather,
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: Libby's grandmother. It really changed my perspective and I got.
• 23:05
  Speaker 2: Close with them. It didn't happen immediately.
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: I was doing the interviews and then we went back
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: and then they asked me to speak with them on
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: a panel to host a panel for them. So Slowly
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: but surely, I got close to them in a way
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: that I hadn't been able to get with other families,
• 23:19
  Speaker 3: whether it be for time constraint, meaning the news keeps going,
• 23:24
  Speaker 3: keeps going, and I was never really there. I'd do
• 23:26
  Speaker 3: a breaking story. And some people early on in my
• 23:29
  Speaker 3: career would say, whatever happened to so-and-so? Well, rarely do
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: we follow up on stories unless they get tons of attention.
• 23:36
  Speaker 2: And that's the way the news cycle goes.
• 23:38
  Speaker 3: And it's bothersome in a way because you don't really
• 23:40
  Speaker 3: get to connect with with the victims and the victims' families.
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: And this was a time that I felt like I
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: really did and had a story to tell from their perspective,
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: not necessarily about, because we didn't know much throughout this crime.
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: And for those listening and for those watching, it's a
• 23:58
  Speaker 2: bizarre case in terms of how little information was let out.
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: And I know that the authorities, they all had in
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: mind the same goal of finding this guy on the
• 24:08
  Speaker 2: bridge that Libby was able to record. But the secrecy
• 24:12
  Speaker 2: or the lack there of information really alluded to a
• 24:15
  Speaker 2: lot of speculation and even now conspiracy theories.
• 24:18
  Speaker 1: That keep going. Well, I think what was interesting about
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: them that you allude to in the book a lot
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: of is that the investigators there really wanted to just
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: report on the facts and they did not want to
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: report on things until they knew it. And that created
• 24:33
  Speaker 1: a lot of Armchair investigators, a lot of people speculating
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: exactly what you're saying. But for people listening, can we
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: step back a minute and give the scene? Can you
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: give the background of exactly what this case was?
• 24:44
  Speaker 2: Absolutely.
• 24:45
  Speaker 3: It was February 13th, 2017, and Abby and Libby, best friends,
• 24:49
  Speaker 3: 13 and 14 years old, Libby 14, Abby 13.
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: Had the day off from school.
• 24:55
  Speaker 3: It was a makeup snow day. And it was abnormally
• 24:58
  Speaker 3: warm for Indiana. When I went there and I saw
• 25:00
  Speaker 3: the bridge, it was about nine degrees. This day was
• 25:03
  Speaker 3: in the 40s, but maybe felt a little warmer, maybe
• 25:06
  Speaker 3: the mid to lower 40s, depending on who you ask
• 25:09
  Speaker 3: at the time of day. And they asked Kelsey, Libby's sister,
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: can you drop us off at High Bridge, is what
• 25:15
  Speaker 3: it was called. It was an abandoned railroad track that was.
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: 62 feet high. It's still there.
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: An unsturdy looking, right?
• 25:23
  Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh. It's terrifying.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: It's terrifying when you see the video of the guy
• 25:28
  Speaker 3: on the bridge. It looks completely different, obviously, than it
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: does in person.
• 25:32
  Speaker 2: So she drops them off.
• 25:33
  Speaker 3: She said to me, Susan, I had been saying no
• 25:35
  Speaker 3: a lot to driving her sister places. Yeah, she thought, oh,
• 25:39
  Speaker 3: I don't want to be the mean sister. OK, all right,
• 25:41
  Speaker 3: I'll drive you. But you have to get a ride
• 25:43
  Speaker 3: home from Derek, their dad.
• 25:45
  Speaker 2: She said, OK. So they got ready that day. They
• 25:48
  Speaker 2: had a sleepover. Abby was there.
• 25:50
  Speaker 3: I think up most of the night giggling as girls
• 25:52
  Speaker 3: do that age, telling stories, spending time together. And Becky,
• 25:56
  Speaker 3: Libby's grandmother, said to me, Susan, it was a way
• 25:59
  Speaker 3: for them to be off electronics, just to be outside.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: I mean, I grew up going outside all the time,
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: but kids now don't necessarily have that opportunity, especially when
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: it's so cold that time of year.
• 26:09
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: But going outside, it seems like almost like a fun
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: thing that you normally wouldn't do. But there are, you know,
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: also way, it wasn't that long ago, but it seems
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: like in that place, it was safe to do something
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: like that. Like I can't just let my daughter go off,
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: especially in Manhattan, you know, and do things.
• 26:27
  Speaker 2: Oh yes. And even now, I mean, maybe it's because
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: of the lot of work I'm in, but.
• 26:32
  Speaker 3: Obviously times have changed. It's so different than, hey, come
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: on when the streetlights go on. And that was, now
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: I would be worried. She's out of my sight for
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: two minutes in Target, and I'm concerned. But this was
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: very safe, and it's what kids did. And so Kelsey
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: drops them off. They wave goodbye. She says, I love you. Here,
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: don't forget your jacket or your sweater. And that was
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: the last time she ever saw them. So she drops
• 26:54
  Speaker 3: them off.
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: And they walk down.
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: It took us about, when I visited the bridge, about five,
• 27:00
  Speaker 3: ten minutes to to get there from the trails. And
• 27:05
  Speaker 3: authorities are piecing together what they know based on Libby's phone.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: So Libby took a picture of Abby and it was timestamped,
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: posted it on Snapchat. And that's the last communication. Derek,
• 27:16
  Speaker 3: her dad, went to pick her up a little after three.
• 27:19
  Speaker 3: She didn't show up, kept calling her, got out of
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: his car and apparently tried to walk and find them.
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: And so that chunk of time, we also know what
• 27:27
  Speaker 3: happened because Libby, saw him and her grandfather mike was
• 27:32
  Speaker 3: telling me look susan i think there was a vibe
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: or creepiness she got from him and she took the
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: video and hit record he was thinking that she would
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: come home and say grandpa look at this guy yeah
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: look at this creepy guy on the bridge well that
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: never happened and the phone was discovered near their bodies
• 27:48
  Speaker 3: that a search ensued soon after maybe you don't think
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: the worst.
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: Right away especially a small town less than 3 000
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: people but.
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: People started to search. They got to their own Facebook.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: Very soon after, it seemed, yeah.
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: And then it was official. Before nightfall.
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: Exactly. And then it was officially declared missing persons around,
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: I think, 515, 530. Authorities are out there as well. Well,
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: the search was called off, and there's been criticism of this,
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: but I think it was officially called off because it's
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: so dangerous down there.
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: It really is. It's dense. There's a lot of brush
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: you can't really see.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: But the family members did say to me it was
• 28:24
  Speaker 3: so heartwarming to see so many.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: In the glow of orange of people still staying. People
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: searched overnight.
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: How come they didn't send out dogs?
• 28:35
  Speaker 3: Sheriff Toblesenby told me when I asked him about his
• 28:39
  Speaker 3: biggest regret, he said it was canceling bloodhounds that were
• 28:42
  Speaker 3: coming in from Michigan.
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: Because this is such a small town.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Oh, right, they didn't have them.
• 28:46
  Speaker 3: Once their bodies were discovered, he called that off. He said,
• 28:49
  Speaker 3: I wonder now in hindsight, you know, being open about
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: what he thinks he could have done. But everyone goes
• 28:54
  Speaker 3: back in time. coulda, shoulda, woulda on what you think
• 28:57
  Speaker 3: you should do in that situation. But they never, Kelsey said,
• 29:00
  Speaker 3: I never went there. Two young girls in the middle
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: of the day murdered. No one went there.
• 29:05
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: Because this town was not known for crime.
• 29:08
  Speaker 2: No, not at all.
• 29:09
  Speaker 3: And when you're there, it almost feels like a Pleasantville
• 29:12
  Speaker 3: type of place with small homes and they're separated by farmland.
• 29:17
  Speaker 3: But it's just a place that you feel good being there.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: There's a main street, It feels right out of a storybook.
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: And so no one really went there until, of course,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: their bodies were discovered that next day.
• 29:28
  Speaker 2: At noon by a searcher.
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: How did this hit mainstream media? Like what made this
• 29:33
  Speaker 1: case stand out? Was it because it was two young girls?
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: do you think?
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: I think so, and I think it was hearing this
• 29:40
  Speaker 2: man's voice. Right. Where he said, down the hill.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: So how soon did they have this recording that they
• 29:46
  Speaker 1: put out?
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: They had it as soon as their bodies were discovered,
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: but it wasn't put out. First, it was a still shot.
• 29:53
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm.
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: Also, a sketch was released based on witnesses who were
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: there and saw a person walk by. So it was
• 30:01
  Speaker 3: a sketch, a still picture, and then the audio of
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: down the hill.
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: We didn't have guys.
• 30:07
  Speaker 3: They added that in April of 2019, that extra word.
• 30:13
  Speaker 3: But we do now know, in hindsight, we didn't for
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: the longest time, that there were 42 seconds on that
• 30:18
  Speaker 3: phone that she recorded. And based on court documents, it's... alleged,
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: because I haven't heard the recording, that Abby says something about,
• 30:26
  Speaker 3: does he have a gun? So I think that's what
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: drew all of the attention were these two young girls
• 30:31
  Speaker 3: putting yourself in their shoes or thinking it could be
• 30:33
  Speaker 3: a daughter or someone you knew to be recording and
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: to hear.
• 30:38
  Speaker 2: This man's voice.
• 30:40
  Speaker 3: And that's when authorities said, we do believe the man
• 30:42
  Speaker 3: on the bridge is the killer. So then the audience
• 30:45
  Speaker 3: or the general public, everyone, they were pleading for their
• 30:48
  Speaker 3: help with.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: The sketch with the man on the bridge. And you
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: would think, A small town less than 3,000. Cut that
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: in half. Let's say it's 1,000 men.
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: And even less, a lot less in that age range,
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: although it was broad, the age range, the longer the
• 31:02
  Speaker 3: investigation went on.
• 31:04
  Speaker 2: Where is he? You see him on the bridge. You
• 31:06
  Speaker 2: see what he's wearing.
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: But going there, I had a different opinion from being
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: on the set. I thought everybody here dresses like this.
• 31:14
  Speaker 2: That's why. And the face is blurry. You can't see.
• 31:17
  Speaker 2: Libby was far away. And then when she hit record,
• 31:20
  Speaker 2: it was in her pocket. It was kind of muffled.
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: But I think what they were hoping for and believing in,
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: which who would blame them, the authorities, is someone knows
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: this guy.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: Let's say it's your dad. Let's say it's your brother.
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: Someone knows who that is and will call in. And
• 31:35
  Speaker 2: that call never came. Never came.
• 31:38
  Speaker 1: Well, and that, in my opinion, was such a good
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: way to do it. But it's also such a local
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: way probably to do it, right? Yes, yes. Imploring for
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: everyone's help. And that obviously backfired in some way because
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: you got a lot of people, because now everyone's so
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: into true crime, right? And they all think that they
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: can come in and solve it with no credentials. And
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: it started a lot of conspiracy theories. Do you think
• 31:59
  Speaker 1: that that hurt the investigation at any point or took
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: away credibility?
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: It's hard to say. Okay, let's get started.
• 32:06
  Speaker 5: Are you first time buyers?
• 32:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's our first time.
• 32:11
  Speaker 7: So it's your first time here?
• 32:14
  Speaker 5: No, it's first time buying.
• 32:16
  Speaker 2: Did you say no for first time buying?
• 32:20
  Speaker 5: No, wait, hold on.
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: Okay, please hold.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: What?
• 32:25
  Speaker 5: No, no, I told you to hold on.
• 32:27
  Speaker 7: You're viewing homes, not mortgage advisors. So find your nearest
• 32:31
  Speaker 7: branch at ebs.ie to get a dedicated mortgage person throughout
• 32:35
  Speaker 7: your mortgage journey. EBS, the mortgage people. Lending criteria, terms
• 32:40
  Speaker 7: and conditions will apply. EBS DAC is regulated by the
• 32:43
  Speaker 7: Central Bank of Ireland.
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: Still things we don't know in terms of what exactly
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: led to his arrest.
• 32:50
  Speaker 2: We have learned since. So it had been almost six years.
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: And they had made some people that were the head
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: of kind of who they were looking at, right? And
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: they all, one by one, were never arrested. Talk about
• 33:03
  Speaker 1: that a little bit.
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: And a background of that, here's an example.
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: When I first went there, I think I interviewed Detective
• 33:10
  Speaker 3: Jerry Holman first. In that office, there's a sign that says,
• 33:14
  Speaker 3: be quiet, the media could be listening. I mean, they
• 33:16
  Speaker 3: were not saying a word in terms of cause of death.
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: Even the family members didn't know. Mike did because he
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: identified Libby's body, but wasn't saying much. The cause of death,
• 33:26
  Speaker 3: of course, as I mentioned. So really nothing was being said.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: And Jerry Holman did say, look, there's no such thing
• 33:33
  Speaker 3: as a cold case. And he said, we're on this
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: because that had been two years.
• 33:37
  Speaker 4: Mm-hmm.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: And then he mentioned that almost saying, Abby and Libby
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: need you. If someone's capable of doing this, they could
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: do it again. And pleading with the public. Now, I
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: believe in hindsight, maybe they were just pleading to the person,
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: a mom, a sister, someone, not necessarily everyone, the general public.
• 33:56
  Speaker 3: Because people started putting up side-by-side pictures of people that Kelsey.
• 34:01
  Speaker 2: Went to school with. Like, oh, look, it's him. It's
• 34:03
  Speaker 2: the sketch. And some of the tips.
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: were bizarre in terms of no details. Like, it's my
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: cousin Steve, but he lives in Ohio, and that's it.
• 34:11
  Speaker 3: Or I saw this guy in a Greyhound. He looks
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: like the sketch. So it kept them busy because they
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: really did go through every single sketch. And they kept saying,
• 34:19
  Speaker 3: notice any differences after the murder. Has he gained weight
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: as he started drinking or doing drugs? Something off that's
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: not really what that person would do. If so, call in.
• 34:30
  Speaker 3: And with that pleading came in just... countless tips. Tens
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: of thousands kept coming in of random tips. So I
• 34:38
  Speaker 3: remember they came back out and said, what is a
• 34:40
  Speaker 3: good tip? This is if you know where they live,
• 34:43
  Speaker 3: why you think it's them, not just gut feeling that
• 34:47
  Speaker 3: you saw him on a greyhound because they really couldn't
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: do much.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: But over the years there were a couple people who
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: were sort of yes lead suspects or whatever who all
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: seemed if you looked at them individually guilt they could
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: have been guilty they all were very suspicious.
• 35:00
  Speaker 3: And you could think oh he could be the guy
• 35:03
  Speaker 3: in the bridge i don't know i mean is it
• 35:06
  Speaker 3: him right.
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Why did they lie about the alibi you know there
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: was all sorts of but it doesn't make them a.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: Murderer weird kind of coincidences. And this is what I
• 35:14
  Speaker 2: stuck to. And I felt bad throughout for law enforcement.
• 35:18
  Speaker 3: And the superintendent, Doug Carter, said, look, I know this
• 35:20
  Speaker 3: is difficult and I can't say what I think happened.
• 35:23
  Speaker 2: I have to say what I know. So it would
• 35:25
  Speaker 2: come up.
• 35:25
  Speaker 3: I remember I was in Florida and I got a
• 35:27
  Speaker 3: call that said Inside Edition wants to talk to you
• 35:30
  Speaker 3: because I had met them there.
• 35:31
  Speaker 2: I had been there several times at that point. I said, well, why?
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: And I believe it was at Daybell at that time.
• 35:38
  Speaker 3: So it would, no, I'm thinking of another case. So
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: it was Chad, I believe, who was he was arrested
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: because he was a nine year old was in the
• 35:47
  Speaker 3: neighborhood and he assaulted her, kidnapped her, put her in
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: the basement.
• 35:51
  Speaker 2: She was OK.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: Well, it looked like he had a tattoo on his
• 35:55
  Speaker 3: arm that could resemble Libby. So I texted Sheriff Tobleson
• 35:58
  Speaker 3: being said, are you looking into him? We look into
• 36:01
  Speaker 3: it's very scripted because at this time, the media attention
• 36:04
  Speaker 3: started to grow and grow. And he was getting an
• 36:06
  Speaker 3: influx of calls. And he said, we're looking into them
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: just like we'd look in to anyone. So they would
• 36:11
  Speaker 3: never call them an official suspect, but they would never
• 36:14
  Speaker 3: say they weren't.
• 36:15
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 36:15
  Speaker 3: So they didn't leave anyone out, but they also didn't
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: include anyone, which was even more vague. And Mike said
• 36:22
  Speaker 3: something to me, because early on, Daniel Nations, that name
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: came up, and he said, I got my hopes up,
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: and I was thinking this could be it, and it wasn't.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: And he said, I don't want to ride that roller coaster,
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: so I'm going to wait until they call me and
• 36:33
  Speaker 3: say we got him or someone's charged with that. So throughout,
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: there was a lot of speculation.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: And even the guy you spoke about earlier, Ron Logan,
• 36:42
  Speaker 1: was that his name, who owned the property? They looked
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: at him for quite a while as well, right? He
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: seemed a little off.
• 36:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: And there were some leaked documents early on. Well, early on,
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: the documents allowed for a search warrant on Ron Logan's property.
• 36:57
  Speaker 2: That was.
• 36:58
  Speaker 3: soon after the murders, which you would assume that that's
• 37:00
  Speaker 3: protocol because it was his property.
• 37:03
  Speaker 2: But the documents were leaked later on. And that's when
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: we started covering all of that.
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: And apparently he lied about his alibi that day, but
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: he did have some prior run-ins with the law and
• 37:14
  Speaker 3: was sentenced for driving on a suspended license. So almost,
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: I wonder if he has since passed away, sadly, of COVID,
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: but I wonder if the if the lies or the
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: coverups were for something completely different, it appears, obviously.
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: It does appear. But that's why I was saying it
• 37:29
  Speaker 1: doesn't make you a murderer, which you hear sort of
• 37:31
  Speaker 1: used by defense a lot, that my client can be
• 37:34
  Speaker 1: an asshole, that my client can be terrible, you know,
• 37:37
  Speaker 1: as a husband, but does not make them a murderer
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: or whatever.
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Um, so that's very interesting.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: All right.
• 37:41
  Speaker 1: So talk to me now about how we got to
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Richard Allen. You said that a lot of people, it's
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: not really known how they actually came about him being the,
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: the person that they arrested or what do you know
• 37:52
  Speaker 1: about that?
• 37:52
  Speaker 3: Soon after, and this is frustrating for a lot of people,
• 37:55
  Speaker 3: including myself thinking why he was there the whole time
• 37:58
  Speaker 3: soon after the murder is either that day or the
• 38:01
  Speaker 3: next day. Um, He made himself available. He came forward
• 38:05
  Speaker 3: to an officer who took notes. It wasn't in a
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: police station. I believe it was a parking lot of
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: a grocery store.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: Saying, I was there.
• 38:12
  Speaker 3: I was on my phone looking at my stock ticker
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: and looking at fish, which sounds bizarre, but put himself
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: there between 1.30 and 3.30. That since has changed that timeline.
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: But he put himself there and whoever.
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: Took the notes or took his, I guess, tip looked
• 38:29
  Speaker 2: at him more like a witness.
• 38:30
  Speaker 3: I'm speculating here. Because no one intentionally would not want
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: to follow up on this. And then that was put away.
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Well, where was it?
• 38:37
  Speaker 3: So we now have his name. And of course, it's
• 38:39
  Speaker 3: not blaming one particular person. But something did happen.
• 38:43
  Speaker 2: And Indiana State Police came out and said, look, it
• 38:45
  Speaker 2: was a misfiling by the FBI.
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: Well, then the FBI came out and said it wasn't
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: our misfiling. So you could tell there was some not
• 38:53
  Speaker 3: as much cohesiveness as it appeared at first together in
• 38:57
  Speaker 3: terms of their strategy.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Sorry to interrupt you, but it seems interesting to me
• 39:01
  Speaker 1: because if I was a journalist covering that and there
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: was even the slightest notion that there was some sort
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: of a witness or someone who had claimed to be there.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: that would have been a guest I would have wanted
• 39:11
  Speaker 1: to talk to, right? And get all their insight on
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: what they saw that day and what it was like.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: He would have become famous just being on the scene.
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: So the fact that we didn't hear his name really
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: until he got arrested seems really interesting.
• 39:23
  Speaker 3: And this man was a conservation officer. I don't know
• 39:27
  Speaker 3: how much that plays into exactly his experience. Remember how
• 39:29
  Speaker 3: small the town was.
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 39:31
  Speaker 3: And Detective Holman, just a wonderful person and funny too.
• 39:36
  Speaker 3: When I first arrived there, he said, I'm not going
• 39:37
  Speaker 3: to talk to you.
• 39:38
  Speaker 2: I don't feel like it. I said, okay.
• 39:39
  Speaker 3: And he said, well, that was easy and laughed. I mean,
• 39:42
  Speaker 3: just really nice. It There was a good vibe there
• 39:45
  Speaker 3: in terms of law enforcement.
• 39:47
  Speaker 2: And I really believe they truly obviously wanted to catch
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: the person that did this. But I think obviously they
• 39:53
  Speaker 2: were in over their heads in terms of maybe there
• 39:55
  Speaker 2: was too many tips. And what was the system?
• 39:57
  Speaker 3: Literally a filing cabinet? Or was it just put in
• 40:02
  Speaker 3: a database where it shouldn't have been? And the detectives
• 40:05
  Speaker 3: did say to me in law enforcement, if nothing comes
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: of this, we're starting over to the beginning. So I'm
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: speculating here because we still don't know. Was it something
• 40:14
  Speaker 3: they found later, or was it a tip from his wife?
• 40:18
  Speaker 3: Married more than 20 years, daughter who was married, walked
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: her down the aisle. Was it something that she called in?
• 40:25
  Speaker 3: And innocent until proven guilty, there is a group out
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: there who says, wrong guy, wasn't him. But former cold
• 40:32
  Speaker 3: case investigator Paul Holes, who I've gotten close to, who's
• 40:35
  Speaker 3: solved the Golden State Killer, essentially, said to me— There's
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: a chapter on Paul, and he talks about visiting the
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: bridge and how he knew right away the guy was
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: local because of.
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: How casual he seems on that bridge. I'm scared of heights.
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I couldn't even step on it. There's gaps.
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: I'm surprised nothing happened to kids, but they have no
• 40:52
  Speaker 3: fear when they're down there, and it's what they're used to.
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: But that's a good point, what you're saying. The way
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: he was walking on it, he had clearly walked on
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: it before.
• 40:59
  Speaker 2: And it's tough to find.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: It took us 15 minutes, and the CNN photojournalists were like,
• 41:02
  Speaker 3: we can't get arrested.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: It says private property. We'll meet you down there.
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: And I was with Kelsey and I walked alone ahead
• 41:09
  Speaker 3: for a little bit and it felt very dense. And
• 41:10
  Speaker 3: I know because I knew what happened down there, but
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: still it didn't feel like this open airy trails that
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: you may see in California.
• 41:17
  Speaker 2: It was very, it was secluded.
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: I could see how this would be. And that is
• 41:23
  Speaker 3: what Paul speculated too. And based on his knowledge and
• 41:26
  Speaker 3: going down there that he believes that that was the weapon,
• 41:28
  Speaker 3: was the bridge. Meaning getting these girls to the other
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: side where essentially they're trapped, telling them to go down
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: the hill. And on Ron Logan's property. Therefore, no one
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: coming from that side.
• 41:39
  Speaker 2: Would hear you or see you or scream.
• 41:42
  Speaker 3: And if he had a gun, which they say he did,
• 41:44
  Speaker 3: they found an unspent bullet in between the bodies.
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: Of course, they're going to be afraid because that was asked.
• 41:49
  Speaker 2: How do you control two young girls? Easy. A gun.
• 41:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, maybe if.
• 41:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I would listen to an adult with
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: a gun and maybe not thinking the worst. Yeah.
• 42:01
  Speaker 1: At this point, have they really confirmed their cause of death?
• 42:05
  Speaker 1: I know we've seen that there's something with a sharp object,
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: but have they said anything about sexual assault? I know
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: one of the girls' underwear wasn't found. I know there
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: was all sorts of things like that. What do they
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: specifically know?
• 42:18
  Speaker 3: I asked Detective Holman, this is, again, early on, not
• 42:21
  Speaker 3: even two years after the murders, and he said, I
• 42:24
  Speaker 3: asked about DNA.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: He said there were DNA. He said, but I'm not
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: saying what kind because, of course, there's all kinds. And
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: I asked him. were they sexually assaulted?
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: And he hesitated to say, but the consensus was it
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: was a no. And again, information coming, really not at all,
• 42:40
  Speaker 3: if at all, bits and pieces. But Paul did say
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: to me, look, the sexually motivated crimes don't necessarily involve
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: sexual assault. And he said, it's hard to understand unless
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: you understand that mind and that it's sexually motivated.
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: But how was the sexual.
• 42:58
  Speaker 3: him being a sexual predator. And again, Richard Allen, innocent
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: to proven guilty, but he believes it was a sexually
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: motivated crime based on the crime scene, but it doesn't
• 43:08
  Speaker 3: necessarily equate to sexual assault.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: I know what you're saying.
• 43:11
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: And it's like, it's complicated to say the control.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: Exactly.
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:15
  Speaker 3: And what I thought, and I asked this to Paul,
• 43:18
  Speaker 3: he was 44 years old at the time.
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: Now he's 50.
• 43:20
  Speaker 3: So or 51 now, but would someone wake up one
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: day at 44 and do this?
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: Or, and he said he may have been.
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: Or was this building or had he done it before?
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: Had he done it before?
• 43:30
  Speaker 3: And he said, well, he could have fantasized about this, Susan.
• 43:32
  Speaker 3: He lived very close to the bridge. Let's say he
• 43:35
  Speaker 3: was down there all the time. He knew the kids
• 43:37
  Speaker 3: had a day off from school.
• 43:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: Let's say he waited for the perfect target. He knew
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: we wanted to murder, but not necessarily who.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Because there was also speculation with catfishing and Keegan Klein. Right.
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: And Anthony Schatz and, um, I've been on Court TV
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: several times, and Vinny's like, wait, that's... It could happen
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: because they trace back Libby to having communication with that
• 44:00
  Speaker 3: Anthony Schatz profile that looks nothing as catfishing does.
• 44:03
  Speaker 2: It was Keegan Klein the night before. So could that
• 44:06
  Speaker 2: be a coincidence?
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: They didn't find anything about Anthony Schatz asking her to
• 44:12
  Speaker 1: meet the next day, did they? Right.
• 44:14
  Speaker 3: But then when he was questioned by the authorities, he said,
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: I was supposed to meet her, but she didn't show up,
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: or to that effect.
• 44:20
  Speaker 2: That's not a direct quote. So... Could it be?
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: And that's when authorities did reach out without saying much
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: more that if you had any interaction with the, at
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: Anthony Schott's profile, please let us know.
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: And it had been five years.
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: So think about young girls. They may not know or
• 44:34
  Speaker 3: forget if, and who had access to that handle. It
• 44:38
  Speaker 3: turns out this was a former model. He's now a
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: police officer, has two daughters. He feels horrible that his
• 44:43
  Speaker 3: picture was used, but it happens everywhere and all the
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: time with catfishing and, uh, Libby's grandmother said, you know, Susan,
• 44:50
  Speaker 3: I feel like I failed. And this was on stage
• 44:53
  Speaker 3: in Las Vegas at something called CrimeCon, where people can
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: connect and really get the story out there.
• 44:58
  Speaker 2: And Paul did say to her.
• 44:59
  Speaker 3: Which I appreciated because I could tell it was weighing
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: heavy on her. Like, I told her not to, that
• 45:06
  Speaker 3: she was at risk, but maybe I didn't say it
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: loud enough.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: And he said, predators are good at this stuff. They
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: really are. They groom people.
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: And Abby and Libby did nothing wrong if they wanted
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: to meet up with, which hasn't been proven, which there's
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: no evidence of it.
• 45:19
  Speaker 2: But they're young girls. They want to have fun and
• 45:21
  Speaker 2: meet boys. Who doesn't at 13 or 14? Yeah.
• 45:23
  Speaker 1: And I mean, I interviewed Chris Hansen recently, and it
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: was very similar stuff that he talks about, that you
• 45:27
  Speaker 1: have to really educate your kids. Because even when put
• 45:30
  Speaker 1: in that situation... they kind of don't even know what
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: they're getting themselves into. You know, they're at that age
• 45:34
  Speaker 1: where it's fun to meet a boy or fun to
• 45:37
  Speaker 1: do all these things and kind of hide it from
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: their parents or whatever. So there's a lot of education
• 45:41
  Speaker 1: that goes on.
• 45:41
  Speaker 2: And they have social media. And my daughter just turned 14.
• 45:46
  Speaker 3: I feel like I have to scare her. And maybe
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: it's because I report on this all the time. I said,
• 45:51
  Speaker 3: if you're meeting someone, chances are they're 40 and may
• 45:53
  Speaker 3: kill you. So I'm scarring her in another way.
• 45:56
  Speaker 2: Right. Because you can never be, I think, too careful.
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: And, you know, Back to when I was growing up
• 46:03
  Speaker 3: and my sister and I were playing outside in the
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: back of our house.
• 46:07
  Speaker 2: Did we just hear about it less? I'm not sure.
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: But there was no indication that there would be a
• 46:12
  Speaker 2: risk down there at the bridge. None. Right.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: It's very interesting because in the pictures you see, in
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: the video you see, it's so... you know, you think
• 46:21
  Speaker 1: of these girls as such heroes that they had the
• 46:23
  Speaker 1: wherewithal to say, this doesn't look right. Let me videotape this,
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: whether or not they were thinking in case someone needs
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: to see the evidence later. But, you know, they knew
• 46:32
  Speaker 1: that they felt it was important to get this kind
• 46:35
  Speaker 1: of information and put it somewhere so they can, what
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: you're saying, show their grandfather later or whatever. So let's
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: talk about the case now because it's gotten very chaotic.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: So it's been, what, about six years now? They have
• 46:47
  Speaker 1: arrested somebody. You do a great job in the book
• 46:50
  Speaker 1: of really keeping this all tied up and having it
• 46:53
  Speaker 1: really flow in a way that's understandable. But there have been,
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: as you said, so many parts that people do not
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: understand because the truth really isn't out and probably won't
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: come out until trial. So this guy's been arrested, Richard Allen.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: Everyone's hopeful, thinking that it's great. And by the way,
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: let's talk about that for a second because I know
• 47:09
  Speaker 1: that you've spoken a lot about the family and where
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: they were when they found out, where you were when
• 47:14
  Speaker 1: you found out. And you've mentioned that the family... It
• 47:17
  Speaker 1: wasn't like, oh, my God, hurrah, let's jump up. This
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: is a great moment for us. Although great, there's a
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: lot of, you know, you know, just silence at the
• 47:26
  Speaker 1: same time. And, you know, I understand that really well.
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: I lost my fiancee. And I remember when they said
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: Osama bin Laden was killed and they, you know, someone,
• 47:36
  Speaker 1: a couple outlets wanted to interview me, you know, thinking
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: I would be, you know, very excited. And, you know,
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: and I was like, time doesn't heal everything. It never will.
• 47:47
  Speaker 1: And that's great, but it doesn't bring back the person.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: And like you talk about, I didn't know my purpose.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: Like to this day, it's hard to figure out why
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: things happen and what your purpose becomes after the fact.
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: But I think that's really....
• 48:03
  Speaker 6: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 48:06
  Speaker 6: know about the drawer. The drawer.
• 48:10
  Speaker 5: Just the one square before bed. Or two, you know.
• 48:16
  Speaker 5: Nobody's watching. You deserve a treat.
• 48:22
  Speaker 4: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
• 48:25
  Speaker 4: flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 48:33
  Speaker 1: Interesting what you talk about because their purpose is so
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: important because there are so many stories that don't get reported.
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: There are so many. families that are um you know
• 48:43
  Speaker 1: falling by the wayside because you hear about the victim
• 48:46
  Speaker 1: you hear about the killer or who they're looking for
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: but you don't hear about the families and i think
• 48:49
  Speaker 1: they have such a big purpose um even more so
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: now to educate um other people about different crimes or
• 48:56
  Speaker 1: missing kids or you know um and and i just
• 48:59
  Speaker 1: found it very interesting what you spoke about about their reaction.
• 49:03
  Speaker 2: You're right there is this um.
• 49:06
  Speaker 3: Kind of obsession if you will with how many Ted
• 49:09
  Speaker 3: Bundy specials have we seen or the Night Stalker? That
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: seems to be, and I think people are curious to,
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: are they born or raised killers? So there's a fascination there,
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: but right, some of the families get left behind in
• 49:21
  Speaker 3: all of this. And I interviewed Becky several times. I
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: became closest with her and Libby's sister, Kelsey. And Mike
• 49:27
  Speaker 3: did bring that.
• 49:28
  Speaker 2: Up early on. It was March.
• 49:30
  Speaker 3: And he said, Abby's family isn't as outspoken they want
• 49:34
  Speaker 3: me to read a letter from them just to say
• 49:37
  Speaker 3: we respect their way of doing things everyone handles grief
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: and tragedy differently and he said please respect that but
• 49:44
  Speaker 3: Becky said to me for several years year after year
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: to have her on she said well I'll tell you
• 49:48
  Speaker 3: I'm going to come to Atlanta and scream from the
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: rooftops and I believe that became her purpose every morning
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: she'd post on Facebook today is the day knowing that
• 49:55
  Speaker 3: one day it would be and I called her when
• 49:58
  Speaker 3: I heard someone was arrested because no one had heard
• 50:00
  Speaker 3: his name. No one was ever charged with the murders
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: except Richard Allen. So this, it felt like came out
• 50:05
  Speaker 3: of nowhere and it felt like they may have a
• 50:07
  Speaker 3: lot or they could have a lot on this guy
• 50:09
  Speaker 3: or they do because he's arrested and no one had been.
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: And I could just, she was at her nephew's wedding
• 50:16
  Speaker 3: and she said, I'm walking out in the hall. It's
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: what everyone's talking about. And she said, I'm, but I don't,
• 50:22
  Speaker 3: I could tell something was sucked out of her that day,
• 50:24
  Speaker 3: especially the next day when she was able to process it.
• 50:27
  Speaker 3: And we did a live show on Halloween 2002 to
• 50:32
  Speaker 3: talk about it. She just seemed beaten down and a
• 50:35
  Speaker 3: different type of sadness.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: And Paul brought this up.
• 50:38
  Speaker 3: And in hindsight, looking back to that panel, he said,
• 50:42
  Speaker 3: For law enforcement, he said, I've seen it personally. It's
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: a whole different level here. And the justice system is
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: not kind to victims or victims' families. And there's a
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: lot of tactics, like we were talking about early on,
• 50:53
  Speaker 3: about the opening statements. That's a tactic, and that's allowed,
• 50:57
  Speaker 3: and you don't have to prove it. So there was
• 51:00
  Speaker 3: a gag order in this case to prevent that, and
• 51:02
  Speaker 3: that's a whole other topic on this.
• 51:04
  Speaker 2: But Paul did say, you're going to need some help.
• 51:06
  Speaker 2: You're going to need other people.
• 51:08
  Speaker 3: Family members maybe to lean on, people who understand exactly
• 51:11
  Speaker 3: what you're going through. Because as you said, they're never
• 51:14
  Speaker 3: coming back. No matter who's arrested or who's not, the
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: girls aren't coming back ever. And for Anna's family, for
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: Abby's family, she was her only child. No more waking
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: up early for school, no more planning anything. I mean,
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: just gutted. Delphi was gutted, and those two families were,
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: of course.
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: Just what you're missing. And an arrest will.
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: They felt better, of course, because... their biggest fear was
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: him doing this again. Because if you could slaughter two
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: young girls, you're capable of anything. So they felt good
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: in that way, but it wasn't like, ah, an exhale
• 51:47
  Speaker 3: at all.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: And it also brings up, you know, so many people
• 51:49
  Speaker 1: probably assume like they want to have revenge. They want
• 51:52
  Speaker 1: to get this guy. But I don't necessarily know that
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: that's how I felt watching or reading your book and
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: listening to a lot of stuff because it was more like,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: A lot of people have given him fairness of, you know,
• 52:03
  Speaker 1: Richard is innocent until proven guilty. And they want to
• 52:07
  Speaker 1: see what happened. We want to hear the details. I
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: think that's going to be what's interesting when the trial
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: does finally happen, if it happens. Because there's been, let's
• 52:16
  Speaker 1: talk about this, there's been so much chaos from the
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: beginning and from the onset since he got arrested. Can
• 52:23
  Speaker 1: you walk us through kind of all the difficulties that
• 52:25
  Speaker 1: have happened?
• 52:26
  Speaker 3: He was arrested and he said he would hire counsel
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: on his own. He then wrote a letter to the
• 52:31
  Speaker 3: court saying, I didn't know it would cost this much.
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: Essentially, I'm paraphrasing.
• 52:37
  Speaker 3: I need appointed attorneys. So then he was given two attorneys.
• 52:41
  Speaker 3: It's Rosie and Rosie. It'll come to me.
• 52:46
  Speaker 2: So two attorneys. But with a B, I think. Yes.
• 52:48
  Speaker 3: So two attorneys were assigned to the case and they
• 52:52
  Speaker 3: started working on it. And they to the press, they
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: put out this letter saying, Rick, didn't do this. He
• 53:00
  Speaker 3: maintains his innocence. Richard Allen calling him Rick, was that
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: a tactic to say, oh, he's a friendly guy, Rick?
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: That's what people called him. Baldwin is what it is.
• 53:07
  Speaker 3: And Rosie, it came to me. So, and there was
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: a gag order in this case. So Judge Fran Gull
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: was assigned to it because the judge who was in
• 53:16
  Speaker 3: Delphi called, said, use the term, and it's one of
• 53:19
  Speaker 3: my chapters, bloodlust, meaning there's so much attention and so much,
• 53:23
  Speaker 3: so many people wanting the documents. He said, I can't
• 53:26
  Speaker 3: do this. People are putting up pictures of my wife.
• 53:30
  Speaker 3: It was too much. Fran Gull got the case. Now
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: he's assigned attorneys. Well, you're allowed to file motions, of course,
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: that you can do that even with a gag order.
• 53:41
  Speaker 3: And the motion they did, they claimed it was in
• 53:45
  Speaker 3: a Franks hearing that they said it was an unlawful
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: search of his home because his home, Richard Allen's, was searched.
• 53:52
  Speaker 3: And during that particular time in October before his arrest,
• 53:55
  Speaker 3: he did say, yes, I did come out to the
• 53:57
  Speaker 3: conservation officer That was me. I did put myself there.
• 54:01
  Speaker 3: So how did they get back to him, I'm wondering?
• 54:03
  Speaker 3: Was it a tip from his wife or daughter? We
• 54:05
  Speaker 3: don't know at this time. So they do a search
• 54:07
  Speaker 3: of his home. Well, the two attorneys are doing what
• 54:08
  Speaker 3: defense attorneys do. They're looking for either mistakes in the investigation.
• 54:13
  Speaker 3: They're looking at the evidence that they have in discovery
• 54:17
  Speaker 3: and saying, in a Franks hearing, this was obtained illegally. Well,
• 54:21
  Speaker 3: the Franks hearing was 136 pages. I think it was
• 54:25
  Speaker 3: just a memorandum disguised as a Franks hearing, really. to
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: just get around the gag order. And just the Odinist
• 54:34
  Speaker 3: cult theories were in there. This is the most bizarre
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: thing you will ever read. And I've read through it all.
• 54:39
  Speaker 3: And there's mistakes and it seems like almost like chunks.
• 54:44
  Speaker 3: And I will say a defense attorney on Court TV
• 54:46
  Speaker 3: was saying to me, now it appears there might be
• 54:51
  Speaker 3: people who believe he's innocent. And of course, there are
• 54:53
  Speaker 3: people who say, well, there's got to be more evidence.
• 54:56
  Speaker 2: But in this memorandum, they name names and you can
• 54:59
  Speaker 2: do that legally. I mean, you can name names. And
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: so it was leaked that 136 pages. Right.
• 55:05
  Speaker 3: And it worked because prior to that, it worked so much.
• 55:08
  Speaker 3: I even forgot to tell you this big part that
• 55:11
  Speaker 3: he was in prison and there were, um, the attorneys
• 55:15
  Speaker 3: wanted him moved out of that prison because innocent to
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: proven guilty, usually in a jail, not that type of prison.
• 55:20
  Speaker 3: They're saying he's treated like a war criminal of, he's
• 55:25
  Speaker 3: not doing well.
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: He's lost a ton of weight.
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: So they released a picture. But before that, and at
• 55:30
  Speaker 3: a hearing, it was discussed in June that he had
• 55:33
  Speaker 3: confessed several times to his wife and mother. And everyone
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: knows that it's recorded. It says it, I believe. On
• 55:39
  Speaker 3: a phone call from Jim.
• 55:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: And so it was, they stated that in court, both
• 55:44
  Speaker 3: the prosecution and the defense attorneys.
• 55:46
  Speaker 2: That he admitted to this. So you think, okay, is
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: this case closed?
• 55:49
  Speaker 7: Is he.
• 55:50
  Speaker 2: Is there going to be a plea deal?
• 55:51
  Speaker 1: Where are we going with this?
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: And then all of a sudden this memorandum is released
• 55:54
  Speaker 3: and everyone forgets about the confessions and everyone is looking
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: at him like, yes, maybe he should be moved.
• 56:01
  Speaker 2: And back to the defense attorney.
• 56:03
  Speaker 3: So everything was released that was released in that apparently
• 56:07
  Speaker 3: had been looked into. The Odinist theory was looked into early.
• 56:11
  Speaker 3: So everything apparently was looked into, but no one was
• 56:14
  Speaker 3: arrested until Richard Allen. Well, this, I believe, was put
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: there to create reasonable doubt.
• 56:19
  Speaker 2: And I think it did.
• 56:20
  Speaker 1: But do you think these guys, because they're court appointed,
• 56:23
  Speaker 1: you know, they've been accused of being, you know, basically
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: horrible at their jobs, complete amateurs, even it seems like
• 56:30
  Speaker 1: by the judge who ended up removing them. So what
• 56:34
  Speaker 1: do you think about that? Do you think that they
• 56:35
  Speaker 1: were doing their job and a good job to try
• 56:37
  Speaker 1: and get this out there, see what sticks and it backfired? Like,
• 56:40
  Speaker 1: what do you think happened?
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: I think so. And then apparently someone in Baldwin's office
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: leaked crime scene photos.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: Right, which became a huge problem.
• 56:47
  Speaker 3: Yes, that might have been the final straw for the judge.
• 56:50
  Speaker 3: But there were cameras in the courtroom that day. It
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: was supposed to be a hearing on the Franks motion.
• 56:55
  Speaker 3: And the attorneys went back in chambers. And now that
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: transcript has since been released. But depending on who you
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: talk to, because he did say, OK, I want these attorneys.
• 57:06
  Speaker 3: And the attorney said, we'll do it for free, pro bono.
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 57:08
  Speaker 2: Well, the judge said, no, I can't have you on
• 57:10
  Speaker 2: this case now. Is that why up to her? Exactly. Like,
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: is it up to her?
• 57:15
  Speaker 1: And so that it seems like she said that because
• 57:18
  Speaker 1: she thought that they were negligent. Correct. Is that where
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: you got?
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: And they're fighting back. Two other attorneys were since appointed. Yeah.
• 57:24
  Speaker 2: But Rosie, Rosie, sorry, Baldwin still want to be on
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: the case. So a hearing was set. It's it will
• 57:31
  Speaker 2: take place.
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: In January to see if and they even want the
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: judge off the case.
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: They said we want her off the case.
• 57:39
  Speaker 1: Do you think they're negligent? Like, what do you think
• 57:41
  Speaker 1: of these attorneys, the original attorneys?
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: I think that they should have saved the reasonable doubt
• 57:47
  Speaker 3: that they were creating in that document for the opening statements.
• 57:50
  Speaker 3: I think that where they can do that, you could
• 57:52
  Speaker 3: try it in court, as you will. And that Johnny
• 57:56
  Speaker 3: Cochran did so masterfully.
• 57:58
  Speaker 2: Right. In openings in the courtroom. Yeah.
• 58:01
  Speaker 1: They didn't save much for mystery.
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: Right. And jury selection hasn't even happened yet.
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: So it's it's.
• 58:07
  Speaker 2: Was it negligent? I don't know. We'll see.
• 58:09
  Speaker 3: Should it have been on record outside in the courtroom
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: during that hearing? They said they didn't want to be
• 58:14
  Speaker 3: embarrassed because there were, in so many words, cameras in
• 58:17
  Speaker 3: that courtroom. It'll be interesting what the Indiana Supreme Court
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: decides in January. I want what's ever best for Abby
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: and Libby's families, and that may be starting with a
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: new judge and new attorneys. It has so much gone
• 58:31
  Speaker 3: on that If they keep Judge Gold and they get
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: rid of the attorneys, could this be brought up on appeal?
• 58:39
  Speaker 2: I don't know.
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: But it's certainly everything Paul had said is really happening
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: in a way that I didn't even imagine could happen.
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: Right. And it's so interesting because Baldwin, one of the attorneys,
• 58:50
  Speaker 1: as you mentioned, somebody, a former colleague or friend came
• 58:54
  Speaker 1: into his office, took pictures, gave those to other people
• 58:58
  Speaker 1: who then distributed online.
• 59:00
  Speaker 7: Right.
• 59:00
  Speaker 1: And then someone ended up killing themselves over it when
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: they were questioned. And the whole thing has just totally
• 59:06
  Speaker 1: gotten out of hand. I even got an email to say,
• 59:08
  Speaker 1: do you want to see them? I said, no, I
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: don't want to see them. And what was very poignant to.
• 59:14
  Speaker 3: Me is Becky put on Facebook, because they're under a
• 59:17
  Speaker 3: gag order too, I'm sure. And I know that they
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: found solace in telling their stories. I know that that
• 59:22
  Speaker 3: helped them, and they can't. And they're following the rules
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: abiding by.
• 59:25
  Speaker 2: The gag order.
• 59:25
  Speaker 3: But they did, she did post a picture of Libby
• 59:30
  Speaker 3: on a blanket. And she says, you know, I take
• 59:33
  Speaker 3: Libby everywhere with me on vacations. And she said, this
• 59:35
  Speaker 3: is how we spend vacation with Libby. How do you
• 59:38
  Speaker 3: spend it? And then she posted pictures of Abby and
• 59:41
  Speaker 3: Libby and said, these are the pictures you should be
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: looking at.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: She's furious. And who would blame her? I mean, the
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: crime scene photos being leaked is unbelievable.
• 59:52
  Speaker 3: Should it have been a sanction in public by the judge?
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: Probably. I don't know in.
• 59:58
  Speaker 3: Terms of technically what should be done, but the trial
• 1:00:02
  Speaker 3: was supposed to happen in January. That was postponed until
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 3: next October. But they're fighting for that, too, a speedy trial.
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 3: So a lot could change at that hearing in January.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: Has anybody heard from Richard Allen's wife or daughter?
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: No.
• 1:00:16
  Speaker 3: Immediately there was an influx to her Facebook where people
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: wanted to find out who was this person. And they
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 3: found out he was married. or who is this person,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 3: and has a daughter, I think because we want to
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: make sense of it. We never really understand why. When
• 1:00:32
  Speaker 3: you tell someone a story about what's on the news,
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 3: they say, well, why would someone do this?
• 1:00:35
  Speaker 2: There's never a logical answer.
• 1:00:37
  Speaker 1: And to the wife, why would they stay?
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 2: Why would they stay?
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: Or did they know? And what did they see?
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 2: It seems like you would think, oh, the wife had
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: to have known. But I don't believe that. I've interviewed
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: BTK's daughter several times, Carrie Rawson. She had no idea.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: He would say, Don't forget to put air in your
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: tires and make her scrambled eggs and walked her down
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: the aisle.
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 2: She had no idea.
• 1:00:56
  Speaker 1: He was essentially a good dad.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: And how do you even go there?
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: Even if the wife thought his behavior is weird, how
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 3: do you go from a child killer, a double murderer,
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 3: someone you thought you knew for more than 20 years,
• 1:01:07
  Speaker 3: 30 almost? So I don't know if it's compartmentalizing or
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 3: they're good at that.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: There are some killers that we have seen in the past,
• 1:01:16
  Speaker 3: serial killers, that are able to keep up a different life.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: And I don't believe— Or when it's their family. They
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: might be empathetic to their wife and their daughter and
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: see them totally different than they see women.
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 2: They're not like us.
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 3: They can do, obviously, compartmentalize and to be able to
• 1:01:33
  Speaker 3: do it if he did such a horrific crime and
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: then to go on living like nothing happened.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 2: Human beings can't really conceptualize that.
• 1:01:41
  Speaker 1: I agree with that. I think people cannot understand, and
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: that's why there's so many questions. I mean, even reverting
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: back to 9-11 for a second, people were like, well,
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: how could these people— fly a plane into the building,
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: but you're not dealing with somebody who believes that life
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 1: is something to value and you can't argue with someone
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: like that.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 6: Right.
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 1: And also we didn't have the, this is an awful
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: word to use, but creativity to know that someone would
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: come up with this kind of scheme. And, you know,
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 1: we didn't have the creativity to know that the buildings
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 1: would fall, you know, structurally. And so you can't, you
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 1: can't kind of look into someone's mind like that unless
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: you really are someone that is, built that way, I think.
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: So it's really different. So how are the families feeling now?
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: How are they doing now, Libby and Abby?
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 3: Because of the gag order, well, I do keep in
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 3: touch with Kelsey and with Becky, but I don't ask
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 3: about the case.
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 2: I just say, how are you doing?
• 1:02:35
  Speaker 4: Okay.
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 3: So there's so much that I want to know and
• 1:02:38
  Speaker 3: I want to talk about with them, but I feel that.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 2: Should I not?
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 3: And that's been difficult, I would imagine, for them, but
• 1:02:47
  Speaker 3: I interviewed Stacey Chapin. I know you know the college
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 3: story about the four college kids and Ethan Chapin's mom.
• 1:02:54
  Speaker 3: And we did a panel together and I got to
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: know her just by reaching out. And she handles this differently,
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: of course, than the Gonsalves' family because they, when you
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 3: were earlier talking about like revenge or aren't you excited
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 3: about bin Laden? And I think everyone handles trauma differently.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 3: We saw that with Gonsalves. He'll be in court every
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 3: single day. Stacey said to me, it's not going to
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 3: bring my son back. I'm not going to court to
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 3: see this monster.
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: So it all depends. And I think the way that Becky's.
• 1:03:22
  Speaker 3: Family, Libby's family, how it's helped them is to get
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 3: out there and to talk about it. Abby's family, not
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 3: so much. I did meet Abby's grandmother. She was on
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 3: a panel with me, sorry, and her grandfather. So they
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 3: were willing to talk about it. But I don't think
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 3: they got the support as Libby's family got, just the
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 3: way of connecting.
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 2: And I feel like it really.
• 1:03:45
  Speaker 3: Kelsey told me that she feels like it did save
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 3: her life, CrimeCon, to meet Golden State Killer.
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 6: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 1:03:55
  Speaker 6: know about the drawer.
• 1:03:57
  Speaker 5: The drawer. Just the one square before bed. Or two,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 5: you know. Nobody's watching.
• 1:04:07
  Speaker 2: You deserve a treat.
• 1:04:11
  Speaker 4: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 4: flavor you favor.
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 5: With Cadbury Dairy Milk.
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 3: People who have been killed, family members, who really understood
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: what she was going through. Because we can say, I
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 3: could say it, you know someone was murdered, your fiancé.
• 1:04:31
  Speaker 2: I don't, I could say, oh, I understand, I'm so sorry,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: but you really.
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: It's a connection that no one else can feel. And
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 3: I think Kelsey got that from connecting with others.
• 1:04:39
  Speaker 1: Right. Well, you do have a little bit of a
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 1: connection to somebody in your family. Your cousin was murdered
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 1: when you were younger, right? Can you talk about that
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 1: a little?
• 1:04:46
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I was 11 and it stood out to me.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 3: It's the Keefe family. It's a distant cousin on my
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: dad's side. And I just remember them having this wonderful
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: big family. And our good friend, Suzanne, my sister and I,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: would always talk about her sisters and how they hung
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: around Kathy, Kathy Keefe. And I remember being in the
• 1:05:04
  Speaker 3: kitchen back in the day with landlines and my dad
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 3: was on the phone and he said, Oh my gosh,
• 1:05:09
  Speaker 3: they found her body.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 2: It was found near a dumpster.
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 3: And my sister and I ran upstairs and my friend
• 1:05:15
  Speaker 3: Suzanne told us what she knew and she was.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 2: Murdered and no one really talked about it. It wasn't discussed.
• 1:05:20
  Speaker 3: And I, because of my age, she was in her twenties,
• 1:05:23
  Speaker 3: I was 11, but we knew her stories and she
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: lived in our neighborhood.
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 2: And so that happened.
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: And I remember at crime con, like we're talking, I told, um,
• 1:05:33
  Speaker 3: Abby's grandmother, that Diane.
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 2: And she said, well, you're part of the club. And
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 2: I said, no, no. And she said, well, don't downplay
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 2: your pain. You can never downplay because mine isn't, quote, unquote,
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 2: as bad.
• 1:05:44
  Speaker 3: Maybe this is why you're helping. So that really clicked
• 1:05:46
  Speaker 3: with me to think, oh, could it have been? Could
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: I have remembered that? Because we did hear details through
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 3: my friend Suzanne. And now, since I wrote this, and
• 1:05:54
  Speaker 3: I checked, of course, with the Keefs, with Kelly, her sister,
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: to see if I could put that in there.
• 1:05:58
  Speaker 2: She didn't want me to. I wouldn't. She said yes.
• 1:06:00
  Speaker 2: And she said she was crying. reading it because she
• 1:06:03
  Speaker 2: thought it was.
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: Well done in terms of talking about their family. It
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 3: wasn't quote unquote salacious, if you will, because she said
• 1:06:12
  Speaker 3: to me, interesting, Susie is what she calls me.
• 1:06:15
  Speaker 2: We didn't really talk about it much either.
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: So I think it's, you don't expect this trauma and
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: people handle it differently and what way works for each person.
• 1:06:24
  Speaker 2: I don't know. And what is the correct way? I
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 2: don't even know if there is one. Yeah.
• 1:06:28
  Speaker 1: I'm curious how they're feeling about you know, the upcoming trial,
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: if they want more to just see him, you know,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: take responsibility, be put behind bars, or if they really
• 1:06:38
  Speaker 1: want to know what happened. Like for me, I would
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 1: want the answers. I would want to know. what happened
• 1:06:43
  Speaker 1: in those last moments, what was said. To me, that
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 1: would feel like closure. For some people, closure is they
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 1: don't want to hear any of that. They don't want
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 1: to see the pictures. They just want to know this
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 1: person can't do it to anyone else.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: And I remember walking to the bridge vividly my first
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: time there with Kelsey and just coming up to it,
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: this massive structure and knowing what happened on that bridge.
• 1:07:06
  Speaker 3: And I said to Kelsey as we were near front
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: of the bridge I said do you know how the
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: girls died and she said no they're not telling us
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: anything but I don't know if I really want to
• 1:07:15
  Speaker 3: know so I think she understood at that time and
• 1:07:19
  Speaker 3: forever how frail fragile she was in terms of self-blame
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: she dropped them off I wish I was meaner that
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: day or I wish that it wasn't as warm out
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: you go through this like could I have changed anything
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: that day right And they can't.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: And that's a never ending self torture, I believe. Yeah.
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 1: And there's two ways to look at it. You know,
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 1: some people just want to have that memory of the
• 1:07:42
  Speaker 1: person looking the way they remember. Once you've seen pictures
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 1: like that, you can't unsee them, you know? So you
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 1: want to remember your loved one, um, in a way
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: that you remember them. You don't want to hear the
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 1: bad things. And then there's people that need to know
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 1: every detail. Like for me, I've always grappled with the
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 1: fact that I don't know what happened in those last
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 1: few minutes. And that last hour, um, you know, with Andy.
• 1:08:03
  Speaker 1: And that's always kind of haunted me only for the
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: fact that I really wanted him to know that I
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: found out, like he wasn't alone, you know? And so
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 1: when they did eventually find his body about six months later,
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: the first thing I said, you have to tell me
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: the cause of death. Like I needed to put together,
• 1:08:22
  Speaker 1: was he burned? Was he hit in the head? Was
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: he aware when the building fell? You know? So for me,
• 1:08:27
  Speaker 1: that was super important, but for you know, his family,
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: they did not want to hear the details.
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 2: Was he on the floor with the financial group that
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 2: were the plane?
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 1: He was in the second building that got hit, but
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: the first building that fell. So he was on the
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 1: 104th floor. And so the first plane went in, you know,
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 1: to Cantor Fitzgerald. The second plane went in lower in
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 1: like the 70s on the floors in the 70s. So
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 1: he was above it. So he was, um you know
• 1:08:55
  Speaker 1: alive for a while until the building fell unless they
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 1: got you know had smoke inhalation but you know he
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 1: was in the first bombing in 93 and they.
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 2: Were my friend Suzanne's father was yes.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: And they played poker until you know and I imagine
• 1:09:10
  Speaker 1: because I was covering it I was at Bloomberg that
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: day and I was covering it for news and I
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: wasn't nervous I was like well he'll go upstairs to
• 1:09:17
  Speaker 1: the roof you know he'll Because, again, we did not
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 1: know those buildings would fall.
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: Ever.
• 1:09:23
  Speaker 3: I mean, I can remember. I'm sure it's etched in
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: your mind forever. But when the buildings fell, were they
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 3: able to tell you the.
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: Cause of death?
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah. It was blunt force trauma.
• 1:09:31
  Speaker 2: Okay. I'm surprised. That's a good thing for you to know,
• 1:09:34
  Speaker 2: I think. Yeah.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: It helped me. And that's what I'm saying. For me,
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 1: it's helpful to hear the details. And sometimes when I
• 1:09:42
  Speaker 1: watch these murder trials or these criminals, I'm hoping for
• 1:09:47
  Speaker 1: the sake of the family that they at least– you know,
• 1:09:50
  Speaker 1: get the details they want, if they want it, because
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 1: to me that seems really important.
• 1:09:55
  Speaker 3: And I said to Mike who happened to, it came
• 1:09:58
  Speaker 3: that he was kind of the speaker of both families,
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: almost put in that position.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: And I said to him.
• 1:10:03
  Speaker 1: And he's the one that found the bodies, right?
• 1:10:05
  Speaker 2: No, it was a volunteer firefighter.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 1: Okay.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 2: Yeah, they wouldn't even let Kelsey near them once they
• 1:10:09
  Speaker 2: knew they found the bodies.
• 1:10:11
  Speaker 3: And I said to him, what keeps you going? And
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: he said the last 15 minutes of their lives. And
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 3: I could tell he was almost thinking about it. because
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: he did see Libby's body. And now that we know, right,
• 1:10:22
  Speaker 3: sharp object, they believe a knife. And touching on that,
• 1:10:27
  Speaker 3: only speculation, and based on Paul's experience, it's rare that
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 3: it's a double murder with a gun, but I believe
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 3: that was the scare tactic to get them down and
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 3: maybe pulling it back.
• 1:10:36
  Speaker 2: And there's the unspent bullet.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 3: I had to kind of dig into that a little
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: bit in terms of ballistics and how will that play
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 3: out in court? Of course, you know, covering these trials
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: with the, it's usually a battle of the experts. Someone's
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 3: going to say it's junk science. Someone else is going
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 3: to say, no, this is absolutely his gun. And there
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 3: is speculation that there's more that they found at that house.
• 1:10:56
  Speaker 3: And maybe there is more, maybe that's why they felt
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 3: they had to write 136 pages to get everything in
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 3: that search warrant out and not brought into court.
• 1:11:04
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 1:11:05
  Speaker 5: Okay.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: So this book was amazing. I read it in a
• 1:11:08
  Speaker 1: matter of 24 hours. Basically, I loved it. But I,
• 1:11:12
  Speaker 1: you know, what did you, you know, what was your
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 1: takeaway writing something like this? For me reading it, it
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: was interesting because I wanted to know about the case,
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 1: but it was also interesting seeing a news reporter's, you know,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 1: almost like your memoir of going through it and taking,
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 1: you know, a story that much further, getting to know
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: the people behind it, getting to be involved in And
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: even though you weren't personally involved in the case, you
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 1: really were. You were invested in the case. And I
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 1: thought that that really came through in the book itself.
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 1: It was a fantastic book.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: Thank you.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 3: And Becky said that to me, that it was different
• 1:11:43
  Speaker 3: than she read it. And Kelsey wrote the foreword and
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 3: she just said it was well done because it's from
• 1:11:48
  Speaker 3: their perspective, from going inside of their lives and seeing
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 3: everything in the highs and lows and kind of what
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 3: they went through.
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: What was important to me was.
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 3: Describing or telling the reader that more about Abby and Libby.
• 1:12:01
  Speaker 3: And I did that by, I sat in my room
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 3: for countless hours, kind of feeling like Tom Hanks on
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: that beach talking to a volleyball. I was in there
• 1:12:08
  Speaker 3: losing my mind, but I wanted to make sure that
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: I had the essence of Abby and Libby.
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 2: And I found that through.
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: Various stories, of course, and video that I had seen
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 3: through the years. But on Facebook, I found it really
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: apparent with Libby. And just, I went through all of
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 3: her posts with her Aunt Tara. And she'd say, she'd
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: get into Tara's Facebook and say, Libby's my favorite out
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: of everyone. So they had this kind of relationship and
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 3: she was funny. And she made, she lived with her grandparents,
• 1:12:34
  Speaker 3: but very close with her mom. And she'd say, write
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 3: her little notes or text messages. And she was funny
• 1:12:41
  Speaker 3: and the kind one and silly because what we do see,
• 1:12:44
  Speaker 3: we saw it with Scott Peterson, with Lacey. There's that
• 1:12:47
  Speaker 3: one still shot. And I know times have changed in
• 1:12:49
  Speaker 3: terms of social media, but we only see the wanton
• 1:12:53
  Speaker 3: It's what you see.
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: Abby and Libby. Abby has a hat on, a straw hat.
• 1:12:57
  Speaker 3: And it turns out she made that with her mom,
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: and she had just gone to or about to go
• 1:13:02
  Speaker 3: to a wedding, and that's where she wore that. So
• 1:13:06
  Speaker 3: it's more than just that still picture of, oh, these
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 3: are the victims.
• 1:13:11
  Speaker 2: It was more of.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: The senselessness of it all. Of course, any murder is,
• 1:13:16
  Speaker 3: but the girls' lives that they stole. And several family members,
• 1:13:20
  Speaker 3: Mike included, said, who knows what? they had so much
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 3: more to give and they were looking forward to their future.
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: And he was teaching Libby at a drive up and
• 1:13:29
  Speaker 3: down the driveway. So it's like this, the lives that
• 1:13:32
  Speaker 3: were cut short and the crater that's now left in
• 1:13:36
  Speaker 3: the homes of those family members, essentially killing pieces of
• 1:13:40
  Speaker 3: them because of this. So it is important of course
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 3: for justice, but they do know. And Becky said to me,
• 1:13:47
  Speaker 3: what does justice really look like though? Because they're not
• 1:13:50
  Speaker 3: coming back. It's not for the girls. They're not, it's,
• 1:13:53
  Speaker 3: it's you want someone to pay for what they did,
• 1:13:54
  Speaker 3: but they know it doesn't bring them back. And maybe
• 1:13:58
  Speaker 3: handing out those flyers and a big part of contention
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 3: with many people in terms of law enforcement, they came
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 3: out with a new sketch in April 2019. And Detective
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 3: Holman called me at that time and said, I saw
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: the special HLN did, and you mentioned the FBI a lot.
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: And I said, well, you're not telling us much. We
• 1:14:16
  Speaker 3: kind of had that joking relationship. And He said, well,
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 3: the FBI told us not to do it, not to
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 3: hold the press conference.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 2: And I went thinking, why?
• 1:14:24
  Speaker 3: Why?
• 1:14:25
  Speaker 2: Was this a way?
• 1:14:27
  Speaker 3: And again, speculation because not everything's out there. Was it
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 3: a way because it had been two years to say, OK,
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 3: something new has to happen here? They invited everyone the
• 1:14:35
  Speaker 3: size of this room to a press conference, a little bigger.
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 2: And it's not always open to the public. Yeah.
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 3: They made you sign in. And this really nice volunteer
• 1:14:42
  Speaker 3: lady kept saying, did you sign in?
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 2: Did you sign in?
• 1:14:44
  Speaker 3: In hindsight, I think they thought he was going to
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 3: show up. You know how people insert themselves. Because the superintendent,
• 1:14:49
  Speaker 3: Doug Carter, I was sitting. I mean, there were photojournalists
• 1:14:51
  Speaker 3: behind me. You could hear the clicking of the cameras
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 3: as well. And he said, we've changed direction. We believe
• 1:15:00
  Speaker 3: you're from Delphi. We believe you live here, once lived here.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: And we also believe you could be in this room.
• 1:15:05
  Speaker 2: And it was like, I mean, if you saw it
• 1:15:07
  Speaker 2: at home, you'd think, or in a movie, you'd think
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 2: this would never happen. What is this? It happened. And
• 1:15:13
  Speaker 2: I did.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 3: A live show from that room for two hours and
• 1:15:16
  Speaker 3: everyone kind of disappeared. And again, speculating, were they looking
• 1:15:20
  Speaker 3: at certain houses or what were they looking for?
• 1:15:22
  Speaker 2: I wonder. Um, but the superintendent did.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 3: Say to me later, he did think that he was
• 1:15:27
  Speaker 3: absolutely watching her in the room. And, uh, I was
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 3: a little afraid after cause everyone had cleared out.
• 1:15:33
  Speaker 2: And I said that to a photo journalist, I'm kind
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: of afraid he's been, he's like, look, I've been around
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: members of ISIS. You're fine.
• 1:15:40
  Speaker 3: And they've seen everything. I mean, they're the best of
• 1:15:43
  Speaker 3: the best, telling stories beyond a lens. So I felt, okay,
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 3: he's right, he'll protect me. But it was an odd
• 1:15:49
  Speaker 3: feeling because, again, the town is so small. And you wonder,
• 1:15:53
  Speaker 3: they're still out there. Who is this and where is
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 3: he hiding? And if it turns out to be Richard Allen,
• 1:15:58
  Speaker 3: not far, about a mile away.
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 1: At CVS.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, at CVS.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 1: Filling everybody's prescription.
• 1:16:03
  Speaker 3: And for those listening, this is... And I remember Becky
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 3: telling me this once Richard Allen was arrested. And she
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 3: had walked out in the hall from her nephew's wedding
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 3: and said, oh, my gosh, Tara remembers him.
• 1:16:16
  Speaker 2: And you know how if you go to UPS or
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 2: FedEx or CBS or what have you, you recognize maybe faces,
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 2: and especially that size. I live in Atlanta. I'm very different.
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 3: But she went in there the day of the funeral
• 1:16:27
  Speaker 3: to pick up pictures of Libby because to be a
• 1:16:29
  Speaker 3: certain size, and she was crying.
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 2: And he said, oh, the pictures are on me. Wow.
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 2: And she remembers that.
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: Well, 2024, I think, will be a huge year for
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: getting some understanding for this family and for the people
• 1:16:42
  Speaker 1: that have been invested in listening to this. So in January,
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 1: we have a hearing coming up to find out if
• 1:16:47
  Speaker 1: the lawyers will be put back on, if possibly the
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 1: judge will be removed, and it'll all start over. And
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 1: then towards the end of the year, hopefully— a real
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 1: trial will happen. But it'll be very interesting to see
• 1:17:01
  Speaker 1: what comes out from it. And I want to know
• 1:17:05
  Speaker 1: if he's been watching the whole time, you know, what
• 1:17:07
  Speaker 1: he's done because he's been hiding in plain sight. It'll
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 1: be interesting to finally get that sort of intel on
• 1:17:13
  Speaker 1: what he's been doing the last couple of years and
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 1: how much his direct family knew or felt.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah, the family did say to me, look, Susan, we
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 3: want the right person, of course. So they're if this
• 1:17:26
  Speaker 3: is the wrong guy, then they want that proven too.
• 1:17:29
  Speaker 3: But why close to six years when there were so
• 1:17:32
  Speaker 3: many names as you spoke about that were brought up,
• 1:17:36
  Speaker 3: why now something must connect him, I think, bigger than
• 1:17:40
  Speaker 3: the bullet.
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 2: And we'll see that in court.
• 1:17:42
  Speaker 3: But I do believe whatever it takes, because everyone has
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 3: the same mission, whether it's a different judge, same judge,
• 1:17:47
  Speaker 3: different attorneys, same attorneys, is let's get this going so
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 3: it can be resolved. Resolved is a bad word in
• 1:17:54
  Speaker 3: terms of it ever going back to the way it was,
• 1:17:57
  Speaker 3: but some sort of justice.
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 1: Yeah. All right. So over the years, what are some
• 1:18:01
  Speaker 1: other stories that you have been really taken by?
• 1:18:04
  Speaker 2: I remember this is way back.
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 3: And when I spoke about my first job as a reporter,
• 1:18:10
  Speaker 3: besides the lawn bowling, Samantha Runyon was taken and murdered.
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 3: And I remember speaking to her mom and of course,
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 3: Polly Klass.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 1: I don't know if.
• 1:18:20
  Speaker 3: You've been a father becoming an advocate and just.
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 1: Talk about purpose. That's what he turned that into.
• 1:18:27
  Speaker 5: Exactly.
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 3: So you really see, like, this is that one act
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 3: and this horrific murder and him losing his daughter. It's
• 1:18:37
  Speaker 3: almost as though that gives them strength, I have found,
• 1:18:41
  Speaker 3: through connecting. And that's why Abby's family, I believe, said
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 3: to me, Diane said, don't dismiss your pain or lessen
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 3: your pain because there is the conversation. ground is something's
• 1:18:51
  Speaker 3: happened to everyone. Maybe not to this degree. It's happened
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 3: to you. You've been able to connect with so many people.
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 3: So it's a way of understanding what someone's been through.
• 1:19:00
  Speaker 2: And you could only get that if you've been through it.
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 3: So I think the stories that stood out to me
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 3: were the ones that, that we see with poly class,
• 1:19:08
  Speaker 3: and of course, Gabby Petito's family I've gotten close to,
• 1:19:12
  Speaker 3: Joe Petito, and he knows, he said this to me,
• 1:19:14
  Speaker 3: because you mentioned it, there's some cases that don't even
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 3: get talked about for some reason, so why? And I
• 1:19:19
  Speaker 3: was asked that question, I did a panel with him
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 3: and his family, and they said, I don't know why
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 3: we do understand that Gabby touched the world, and that,
• 1:19:27
  Speaker 3: I don't know, it was because of her social media,
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 3: or I believe it was the body cam footage, and
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 3: once someone said, because I saw it differently, I was
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 3: in the newsroom then, colleague and friend of mine, Sammy,
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: a young 30s guy, and he saw it very differently
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: than me. I thought it was clear as day that
• 1:19:42
  Speaker 3: she was being abused and calling out for help.
• 1:19:44
  Speaker 2: He didn't see it.
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 3: So it's how you saw that. So I think that
• 1:19:48
  Speaker 3: really played a role. But since then, the Petitos have
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 3: been working to get the not-so-known cases or reported on
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 3: cases known.
• 1:19:55
  Speaker 2: And he said, that's my purpose.
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 3: And he said, I can't watch that body footage. He's
• 1:20:00
  Speaker 3: watched pieces of it, and he says, I will if
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 3: I have to.
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 2: But this was a couple years back.
• 1:20:05
  Speaker 3: He said, I that's not the Gabby I knew when
• 1:20:07
  Speaker 3: she hid stuff from us, of course, as girls do,
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 3: as domestic violence victims, who it was assessed from that
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 3: body game footage that she had been going through this,
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 3: that he said, I would fall into a deep depression
• 1:20:21
  Speaker 3: if I thought.
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: What could I have done differently?
• 1:20:23
  Speaker 1: Sure, of course.
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 3: So I think the stories like that, where it's people
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 3: that you get to meet, sadly, through the most horrific
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 3: circumstances that have happened to them, but to see the
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 3: strength that they, And that plays out differently.
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 2: And no one's strong every day.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 5: No one.
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 3: And he said, my darkest hours are ugly. So it's
• 1:20:43
  Speaker 3: how you can get up and keep going. And that's
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 3: where I found my connection and looking up to Abby
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 3: and Libby's families.
• 1:20:51
  Speaker 2: They can still be standing. You can get through anything.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: Is there one case that's haunted you that you kind
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: of want to follow up with and see where it's
• 1:21:00
  Speaker 1: going or a case that you're following right now that
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 1: you're really... you know, waiting to see what happened or
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 1: you're just so obsessed with it. Like, for me, that
• 1:21:08
  Speaker 1: Lori Vallow case was... I was... I could not get
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 1: enough of that.
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 2: I think I mentioned Vallow accidentally.
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you said it.
• 1:21:14
  Speaker 2: And you talked about Chad. When I was talking to
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: the attorneys, Dave Vallow, oh, my gosh.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: The twists and turns there. Yeah. I mean, that story.
• 1:21:21
  Speaker 1: And I couldn't believe that people weren't connecting the dots.
• 1:21:24
  Speaker 1: You know, first one, her ex-husband died. Then the brother died.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 1: Then the wife died. Then, you know, all these things
• 1:21:28
  Speaker 1: are happening. And I'm like, why is no one talking
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 1: about this in the same breath? And why is no one.
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: getting her, you.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 1: Know, I was just, it was so infuriating.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: Mike Alano's a former colleague of mine laid it out perfectly.
• 1:21:40
  Speaker 2: It was so confusing.
• 1:21:42
  Speaker 3: And I had interviewed JJ's grandparents. That was horrific to
• 1:21:46
  Speaker 3: see what they were going through.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah.
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 3: And what happened to him and what stuck with me
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 3: in the most devastating gutting way was Chris Watts. When
• 1:21:54
  Speaker 3: we heard exactly how.
• 1:21:57
  Speaker 2: He told it. I mean, what do you believe? Yeah, really?
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 3: But that he tried to kill his two little girls
• 1:22:02
  Speaker 3: once and they got up and then he killed them again,
• 1:22:05
  Speaker 3: or there's speculation, were they dead prior? But I feel
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 3: like the prosecutor in that case wanted the details out
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 3: there for whatever reason. I know that it was death
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 3: penalty was off the table, so maybe it was a
• 1:22:15
  Speaker 3: way to have prisoners hear.
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: About exactly how horrific this thing was.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 3: I don't know, but it was word for word read,
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 3: and I was on the set with Attorney Joey Jackson,
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 3: who else was with me, former law enforcement.
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 2: And I just.
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 3: it really got to me and I, it was covered
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 3: by video, of course, and I had to point to
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 3: Joey to keep, to talk about this. And of course,
• 1:22:36
  Speaker 3: Sandy Hook. I think anytime young kids are involved, it's,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 3: it's jarring.
• 1:22:41
  Speaker 2: It's, but right. The, the Lori Vallow.
• 1:22:44
  Speaker 1: And when you're talking about Chris Watts, you know, that's,
• 1:22:46
  Speaker 1: that's an example. He was married to Shanann, who he
• 1:22:50
  Speaker 1: killed because he was having an affair essentially, and then
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 1: put his two daughters in an oil rig. And, you know,
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 1: that was an example to me of how you never
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 1: know what a murderer looks like. He was this handsome,
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 1: you know, energetic looking guy. And people really wanted to
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: believe him when he did. You know, we spoke all
• 1:23:09
  Speaker 1: over the place about trying to bring her home. And,
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: you know, if we watch anything on the ID network,
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 1: we always know to look at the spouse.
• 1:23:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. They're called family annihilators.
• 1:23:19
  Speaker 3: There's no word for it because people think normal human beings,
• 1:23:22
  Speaker 3: why not just get divorced?
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: Well, they don't want that. They don't want any. They
• 1:23:25
  Speaker 2: feel like.
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 3: And that they annihilate the family and get rid of
• 1:23:29
  Speaker 3: everyone in the family. And right with Chris Watts, and
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 3: that was an excellent point you spoke about, because if
• 1:23:35
  Speaker 3: it does turn out to be Richard Allen, monsters don't
• 1:23:38
  Speaker 3: look like monsters.
• 1:23:41
  Speaker 2: They don't look like Charles Manson, who I believe looks
• 1:23:43
  Speaker 2: like a monster. They don't. They could be the guy.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: Who's living next door.
• 1:23:46
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: The hot guy that you're hoping will swipe on you
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 1: on Bumble.
• 1:23:50
  Speaker 2: And one that... And one that you get in his
• 1:23:53
  Speaker 2: car on campus. He pretended to have a broken arm. Right.
• 1:23:56
  Speaker 1: You believe him. I would have gotten in his car.
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 2: Right? It's like, wait a minute. And you're studying law
• 1:24:01
  Speaker 2: and you seem charismatic. Right.
• 1:24:03
  Speaker 1: He was great in court. Yes.
• 1:24:05
  Speaker 2: It does make you think, who do you really know? Yeah.
• 1:24:10
  Speaker 3: And I think that's the most frightening part. And I
• 1:24:14
  Speaker 3: think people are fascinated by it in a way who
• 1:24:16
  Speaker 3: are drawn to crime. Not in for a voyeuristic way,
• 1:24:19
  Speaker 3: but a way I believe, especially women, which is crime clouds,
• 1:24:23
  Speaker 3: 90% women is a way of maybe protecting yourself or
• 1:24:26
  Speaker 3: feeling like, well, how do we know?
• 1:24:27
  Speaker 2: And are there signs? And we're always looking for them. Yeah.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 1: Um, one quick question. Cause I know, um, Mark Garagos
• 1:24:34
  Speaker 1: is trying to get a new trial for the Menendez brothers.
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 1: What do you think of that?
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 2: Oh my gosh. So quick backstory grew up in New Jersey.
• 1:24:42
  Speaker 3: Um, and my sister and I played tennis with this
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 3: tennis pro Merrick and, uh, he was friends with the
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 3: Menendez brothers because they, you know, the Princeton connection and
• 1:24:50
  Speaker 3: Merrick and it was, um, Lyle, the older one, not Lyle,
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 3: stopped by my house, came inside.
• 1:24:57
  Speaker 2: This was weeks before the murder. My dad met him.
• 1:24:59
  Speaker 2: We weren't home, my sister and I. So that was always.
• 1:25:02
  Speaker 3: In my head when I follow this. But I think
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 3: differently now than I did back then. I remember the
• 1:25:08
  Speaker 3: People magazine cover. And I went to high school in Princeton,
• 1:25:11
  Speaker 3: and there was a Chuck's. That's what they bought, the.
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: Wing place, Chuck's.
• 1:25:14
  Speaker 3: But it never made sense to me, and I was
• 1:25:17
  Speaker 3: too young to really think thoroughly through this. And of course,
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 3: gunning down your parents, they admitted to it. But if
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 3: they already had the wealth, why would they wouldn't murder
• 1:25:27
  Speaker 3: their parents? What I believe now for money, they lived
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 3: in that wealth. So why it's not the Rolex or
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 3: the wings that they got. Now I do believe.
• 1:25:38
  Speaker 2: That he was sick.
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 3: Jose was sexually assaulting his kids and Eric time and
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 3: time and time and time again. And I think when
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 3: he was going to UCLA and they said, you have to,
• 1:25:50
  Speaker 3: he said, you have to live here.
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 2: I believe that he was a predator. Do I think
• 1:25:55
  Speaker 2: it's okay to kill your parents? Absolutely not.
• 1:25:57
  Speaker 3: They've been in prison more than 33 years. I think
• 1:25:59
  Speaker 3: it's time that they get let out. That's my opinion
• 1:26:03
  Speaker 3: on it. And I do believe as a society, we're
• 1:26:06
  Speaker 3: more willing to see this abuse or understand it instead
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 3: of Georgia Armani suits on the cover of people saying
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 3: murder in Beverly Hills.
• 1:26:13
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 3: Fell into it I read it I understand that of
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 3: course it's not right but I think what played into
• 1:26:18
  Speaker 3: that was OJ walking and there was a kind of
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 3: a bone.
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: To pick in terms of they can't.
• 1:26:25
  Speaker 3: Lose another case so but I do believe that abuse
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 3: took place and I recently spoke to the gentleman behind
• 1:26:33
  Speaker 3: the documentary that was recently released on Peacock about Minuto
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 3: oh right and one of the brothers and I reached
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 3: out to him and he said thank you and he's
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 3: been he covered both cases and just really, I mean,
• 1:26:47
  Speaker 3: talks to the brothers constantly and really wants to uncover,
• 1:26:53
  Speaker 3: he believes, based on his reporting, that there was more
• 1:26:56
  Speaker 3: abuse by Jose, more young kids, not just his own.
• 1:27:01
  Speaker 3: And I think just the Menudo, the one Menudo member
• 1:27:04
  Speaker 3: who came out and said, no, I was sexually abused
• 1:27:07
  Speaker 3: by Jose, I think that should play.
• 1:27:10
  Speaker 2: In, and I hope it does. I hope they're let out. Yeah.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: That's a case I have been obsessed with and following
• 1:27:15
  Speaker 2: because of how it's turned. Maybe the knowledge that we have.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 2: They said they did it, and they explained why.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 3: I don't think looking at them, speaking of how murderers look,
• 1:27:25
  Speaker 3: that it was just, and the evidence that wasn't allowed.
• 1:27:29
  Speaker 2: In by the cousins and the family.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 1: And the letter.
• 1:27:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah, so I believe that 33 years that they should
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 3: be let out based.
• 1:27:37
  Speaker 1: On what I believe happened to them. Or at least
• 1:27:38
  Speaker 1: given a new trial to see.
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: Absolutely, yeah. And to hear all of the evidence. Yeah.
• 1:27:43
  Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting. It's too bad that Nancy Grace isn't
• 1:27:46
  Speaker 1: on every night anymore because she always had a new
• 1:27:49
  Speaker 1: story for us to follow and obsess with.
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 2: And hot mom. I mean, Jodi Arias, we covered that.
• 1:27:56
  Speaker 2: The interest was there. 17 days on the stand. It's
• 1:28:00
  Speaker 2: what are people capable of? Why do they do it?
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 2: And how much this guts everyone around them.
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: And that's another example of how murders don't look like
• 1:28:09
  Speaker 1: murders because Jodi was this pretty girl right.
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 3: That you would why would she kill Travis Alexander have
• 1:28:16
  Speaker 3: her camera with her and luckily pictures.
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 1: Were on that yeah but but Nancy's you know team
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 1: was so good at picking out such good stories I
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 1: remember I don't know if you remember this name Jasmine
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 1: Fiore she was she had married in Vegas a guy
• 1:28:31
  Speaker 1: who had been on some reality show and she was
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 1: missing and they ended up finally identifying her through her
• 1:28:38
  Speaker 1: boob job and he had taken out her teeth and
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 1: she was missing and then he went on the run
• 1:28:43
  Speaker 1: and ended up killing himself but Nancy was so obsessed
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 1: with this story and I was obsessed with this story
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 1: because I was obsessed with Nancy but when I first
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: moved to Vegas Jasmine came to me and asked to
• 1:28:54
  Speaker 1: rent a room for me and she said she was
• 1:28:56
  Speaker 1: a real estate agent she wasn't she was You know,
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 1: I found out later she she was a little more
• 1:29:01
  Speaker 1: than that in Vegas and got herself into some trouble.
• 1:29:04
  Speaker 1: So she ended up leaving my house. But I knew her.
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 1: And to watch Nancy with someone that I knew really
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 1: drew me in. And I, you know, could not stop
• 1:29:14
  Speaker 1: following just on all her shows. You know, we couldn't
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 1: stop following everything she spoke about.
• 1:29:18
  Speaker 3: And she coming from her experience and talking about connecting
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 3: and having her fiance.
• 1:29:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Killed.
• 1:29:24
  Speaker 3: I believe that she had a rare connection of wanting,
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 3: she was almost.
• 1:29:28
  Speaker 1: She wanted the truth.
• 1:29:29
  Speaker 2: To get the bad guy. She wanted the person to
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: pay who did this.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah. And she had a lot of.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 1:29:34
  Speaker 1: You felt that anger coming through or that unresolved, you know,
• 1:29:37
  Speaker 1: like we've got to get to the bottom of this.
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 1: She wanted to make people aware of the story.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 1: Because what was so important, she did such a good job,
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 1: especially with, with the top mom situation, but she would
• 1:29:49
  Speaker 1: always talk about Kaylee. Is that the kid's name? and
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 1: always show those pictures. I remember those videos, and she
• 1:29:54
  Speaker 1: did a great job of really having you remember the
• 1:29:58
  Speaker 1: person while you're listening to all the gruesome details, but
• 1:30:01
  Speaker 1: that's also why, you know, I, for now 23 years
• 1:30:04
  Speaker 1: or whatever it's been, have continued, you know, people will
• 1:30:07
  Speaker 1: ask me the story about 9-11. Everyone's heard it a
• 1:30:10
  Speaker 1: million times, but I love to share the story because
• 1:30:12
  Speaker 1: I want people to know Andy's name so that he,
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: you know, he didn't die 23 years ago. People really
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 1: felt like they knew him, and that was always important
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 1: to me. And so many, you know, over time people
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: will be like, why are you still talking about this? Well,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: it's in my bones, but also it's not about me.
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: You know, people think that when I'm talking about it,
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: I make it about me. I do it so people
• 1:30:32
  Speaker 1: know his name. And so he's not forgotten.
• 1:30:35
  Speaker 3: That's judgment that shouldn't be given because no one knows
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 3: exactly what it feels like to be, to go through that.
• 1:30:40
  Speaker 3: We've all seen the picture of you devastated looking for him.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: It's horrific.
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 3: There's no timeline to get over. You'd never get over it.
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 3: There is no timeline. And that was Becky's biggest fear,
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 3: that the girls would be forgotten. She said, Susan, it's
• 1:30:51
  Speaker 3: little things. I got the insurance card for dental insurance.
• 1:30:54
  Speaker 3: Her name wasn't on there. And she said, I don't
• 1:30:57
  Speaker 3: want people to forget her. So they did build this
• 1:30:59
  Speaker 3: Abbey and Libby Memorial Park. It started as an idea
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 3: for a softball field, and now it's an amphitheater.
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 2: People can donate there, and you could have a personalized paver,
• 1:31:09
  Speaker 2: or even Andy, someone you think about.
• 1:31:10
  Speaker 1: And it's just a.
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: Way that, OK, they won't be forgotten. Their pictures are there.
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: So the families were able to connect.
• 1:31:16
  Speaker 3: And quickly here, there was a gentleman early on in
• 1:31:18
  Speaker 3: the process, all volunteers, he showed up with this huge
• 1:31:21
  Speaker 3: tractor and he was in and he was helping. And
• 1:31:23
  Speaker 3: Abby's grandfather was thinking, Eric, who is that guy? Like
• 1:31:26
  Speaker 3: he's doing a lot, but we don't know who he is.
• 1:31:28
  Speaker 3: And went over and he said, my brother was murdered
• 1:31:29
  Speaker 3: 30 years ago. We never found out.
• 1:31:31
  Speaker 2: Who did it. So he was helping. So that's, I
• 1:31:35
  Speaker 2: believe in, in the way.
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 3: Humans connect and heal through each other. They can without judgment, without, uh,
• 1:31:45
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's just sick of what can go on
• 1:31:47
  Speaker 3: the lowest of the lows. You can hide behind nothing,
• 1:31:49
  Speaker 3: not your picture on YouTube and speculate that the family.
• 1:31:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's just asinine for clicks. Yeah.
• 1:31:54
  Speaker 3: But there's a side of this that I've met and
• 1:31:56
  Speaker 3: I've seen firsthand where they connect and they're lifelong friendships.
• 1:32:00
  Speaker 3: And I believe holding each other up.
• 1:32:02
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 1: Will you be at the trial next year when it
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 1: eventually happens?
• 1:32:05
  Speaker 7: Yep.
• 1:32:06
  Speaker 2: I'll be at the hearing in January.
• 1:32:07
  Speaker 1: Oh, good.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 2: I'll call you after.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 3: Good.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 1: I can't wait to hear. Where can people find your book?
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: Ooh, Amazon, Barnes & Noble, and stores near you. The
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: easiest way is Bezos, where I get everything these days,
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 2: don't we all?
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: This is the book, you guys, Down the Hill. You
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: should absolutely try it. Read it. You will go through it.
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 1: And very quickly, it was phenomenal. It was so great
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 1: seeing you. Thank you so much for being here. And
• 1:32:32
  Speaker 1: hopefully I'll have you on soon because I would love
• 1:32:35
  Speaker 1: to have your take on different trials that come up
• 1:32:37
  Speaker 1: too because it's so fun to get your thoughts on it.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 1: And so many times I think people have a hard
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 1: time with news these days because there's not enough information
• 1:32:45
  Speaker 1: and you turn on all the stations and they're regurgitating
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 1: the same information over and over and over. Even in
• 1:32:51
  Speaker 1: the Gilgo Beach stuff, you know, people were just making
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 1: up stuff and just repeating it. And it'll be nice
• 1:32:56
  Speaker 1: to sort of push that forward, especially into 2024 and
• 1:32:59
  Speaker 1: hear some of the details that have happened. I'd love
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 1: to hear the details on what happened, you know, on
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 1: this later on with you and some of the other trials.
• 1:33:07
  Speaker 3: I'm thinking of Stacey Chapin, of course, and so there
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 3: are trials that it will be interesting to see.
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 1: And speaking of that, just really quickly, I had Mark
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 1: Garagos on and I asked him about Brian Koberger. Is
• 1:33:20
  Speaker 1: that how you say his name? And he thinks from
• 1:33:22
  Speaker 1: a criminal defense perspective, he has a good case. So
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 1: it'll be interesting to see what they, you know, what
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: defense they give him. But Mark thought, yeah, and Mark thought,
• 1:33:33
  Speaker 1: you know, there's a way out for him. So it'll
• 1:33:35
  Speaker 1: be interesting.
• 1:33:36
  Speaker 2: I know if anyone knows this, Mark will see.
• 1:33:38
  Speaker 3: And that, of course, can happen during the trial, but
• 1:33:41
  Speaker 3: where I believe the mistakes are made. With Richard Allen's
• 1:33:44
  Speaker 3: former attorneys, it's being played out to the public. And
• 1:33:47
  Speaker 3: picking the jurors is going to be tough. It gets
• 1:33:50
  Speaker 3: more difficult as we have more technology.
• 1:33:52
  Speaker 2: We're on our phones. We see everything. So I just
• 1:33:55
  Speaker 2: want it to be a fair trial.
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm always hoping I'll be picked for a trial
• 1:33:58
  Speaker 1: like that. But, of course, I'm the last person they'd
• 1:34:00
  Speaker 1: pick because I read too much about it.
• 1:34:02
  Speaker 3: And now that you said it, you're not going to
• 1:34:04
  Speaker 3: be picked. But you could be fair no matter what,
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 3: I believe it.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I would try to be. All right, well, thank
• 1:34:08
  Speaker 1: you so much. Again, everybody get her book, Down the Hill,
• 1:34:11
  Speaker 1: and we will have you on again soon.
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 2: Thanks, Rachel.
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much for listening to Misunderstood. I'm your host,
• 1:34:28
  Speaker 1: Rachel Yucatel. Please be sure to subscribe to the show
• 1:34:31
  Speaker 1: and give us a five-star rating and review. You can
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: support the show by joining our Patreon at patreon.com slash
• 1:34:38
  Speaker 1: misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. Do you have ideas for the
• 1:34:41
  Speaker 1: show or want to reach out? Email us at infomisunderstoodpodcast
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: at gmail.com. That's spelled M-I-S-S understood. Thank you so much,
• 1:34:51
  Speaker 1: and I'll see you next time.
• 1:34:59
  Speaker 6: They think you're done for the day, but they don't
• 1:35:01
  Speaker 6: know about the drawer.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 5: The drawer. Just the one square before bed. Or two,
• 1:35:10
  Speaker 5: you know. Nobody's watching. You deserve a treat.
• 1:35:17
  Speaker 4: With eight flavors to choose from, you can choose the
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 4: flavor you favor with Cadbury Dairy Milk.