Latest / Mud & Rib Podcast / Connecting, Part 1: The City Builder - What’s Robbing Us of Real Connection

Transcript

Connecting, Part 1: The City Builder - What’s Robbing Us of Real Connection · Mud & Rib Podcast

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  [music]
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  SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
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  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Mud and Rib Podcast.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're about love, life, and leadership.
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  SPEAKER_00: Today, we're starting a new series called Connecting.
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  SPEAKER_00: This will be a four-part series, and we're really excited about it.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're going to be talking about how all of us long for a deeper connection,
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  SPEAKER_00: but there are things that keep us from that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Have you ever asked yourself, like, there's something missing in my relationships?
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  SPEAKER_00: Often people feel this way and we are going to talk about what are some of
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  SPEAKER_00: the things that keep us from doing that.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're also going to talk about how the cross of itself is a picture of connection,
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  SPEAKER_00: a vertical relationship with God and a horizontal relationship with people.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so connecting has been part of the plan all along.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so we're going to talk about how that affects us and also how
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  SPEAKER_00: the gospel is really the thing that is needed in order for us to have these types
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  SPEAKER_00: of connections.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so we're looking forward to it.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're going to go ahead and dive in.
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  SPEAKER_00: And start this off and talk about connecting.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean,
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  SPEAKER_01: like you said,
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  SPEAKER_01: we're to have a connection with God and our connection
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  SPEAKER_01: with God should impact our connection with other people.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's the good news.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's what you shared.
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  SPEAKER_01: The bad news is,
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  SPEAKER_01: is that we are broken and we don't have a relationship with God
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  SPEAKER_01: until we are reconciled back to him through a relationship with Jesus Christ.
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  SPEAKER_01: Even whenever we have a relationship with Jesus Christ,
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  SPEAKER_01: there are these patterns and there is an enemy that wants to kill,
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  SPEAKER_01: steal, and destroy and rob us of these connections.
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  SPEAKER_00: Maybe let's talk about before you knew Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: What are some of the things that you felt or thought about connecting?
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  SPEAKER_00: Like what was missing or what did you observe about your life?
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  SPEAKER_01: I really didn't have,
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I think all of us have this, like eternity is placed upon our hearts.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's this desire to connect,
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  SPEAKER_01: but really my desire for pleasure,
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  SPEAKER_01: feeling good,
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  SPEAKER_01: getting my own,
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  SPEAKER_01: operating out of insecurity and significant striving came from a broken place
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  SPEAKER_01: in my life.
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  SPEAKER_01: And as I look back on it,
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  SPEAKER_01: It seems like selfishness was my greatest motivator in
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  SPEAKER_01: that I didn't understand connecting at all.
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  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that I remember,
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  SPEAKER_00: and I talked about this in one of our first podcasts,
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  SPEAKER_00: is always wanting to have a best friend.
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  SPEAKER_00: Always thinking that there was something missing in my relationship
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  SPEAKER_00: and just not knowing how to rest in But we were all broken.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, everybody that I was friends with, none of us were following Jesus.
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  SPEAKER_00: There were only two people that I knew of.
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  SPEAKER_00: But there was this insecurity about thinking that having a deep connection with
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  SPEAKER_00: the best friend was going to be the answer.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_01: I do remember my mom listening to me my freshman year when kind of my expectations
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  SPEAKER_01: and a little bit of dreams were shattered.
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  SPEAKER_01: This was before, I think, the knee injury.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it was around that time I was already experiencing some lows just...
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  SPEAKER_01: Finding out so many kids at my school did drugs, and that was so foreign to me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And just high school just wasn't what I expected it to be.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I remember my mom listening to me and connecting with me at that level by just listening.
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  SPEAKER_01: I do remember that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was a sense of being connected to my mother in my relationship with her.
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  SPEAKER_00: So your mom connecting with you really made an impact on you?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yes, absolutely.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think that's really,
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  SPEAKER_00: that's good that you had that because so many people don't have that.
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  SPEAKER_00: We just don't have good models of what it means to connect.
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  SPEAKER_00: So let's talk about just kind of,
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  SPEAKER_00: I think you have a biblical reference for this that you want to talk
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  SPEAKER_00: about these metaphors.
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  SPEAKER_00: We're going to be talking about four different metaphors over the next four weeks.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so God has a story for us, and His story is good.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in that story,
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  SPEAKER_01: God also has sent us prophets to call us back to Himself to listen to Him and
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  SPEAKER_01: to learn that His story is good so that we can connect at a deeper level.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we have in the Old Testament these four metaphors or prophetic voices
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  SPEAKER_01: that are calling us to connect with God and other people.
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  SPEAKER_01: And the first metaphor is the city builder.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's what we'll cover today.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have the city builder.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have the fire lighter.
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  SPEAKER_01: We have the white wall washer.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then we have, what's the last one?
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  SPEAKER_01: Oh, the well digger.
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  SPEAKER_01: So those are the four metaphors or images that we see
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  SPEAKER_01: that are like prophetic voices calling us to connect.
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  SPEAKER_01: And By pointing out the things that we do, these urges that keep us from truly connecting.
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  SPEAKER_01: And all along the way, God's story is good.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then when we get in these difficult times, we believe a lie.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we choose not to connect, not to believe that his story is good, that he is good.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then it robs us of everything that he has planned for us and
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  SPEAKER_01: the good things he is doing in the midst of our lives,
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  SPEAKER_01: even whenever it seems like it was intended for evil.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, just think of Joseph's statement.
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  SPEAKER_01: The Joseph statement, what is it, Genesis 50?
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  SPEAKER_01: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: Where he tells his brothers, what?
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  SPEAKER_01: You intended this for?
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  SPEAKER_00: What you intended for evil, God meant for good, not just for me, but that many would be saved.
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, for the salvation of many.
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  SPEAKER_01: That is all of our stories,
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  SPEAKER_01: that God is good, and he wants to bring his salvation, his connecting.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so let's talk about this first one, city building.
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  SPEAKER_01: What does city building mean and what does that look like?
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  SPEAKER_01: So we talk about city building.
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  SPEAKER_01: We can look at several places.
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  SPEAKER_01: One is where Cain does not listen to God when God tells him,
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  SPEAKER_01: sin is crouching at your door about to steal from you the story of goodness
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  SPEAKER_01: that I have for you.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what does he do?
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  SPEAKER_01: Instead of learning from God in the wilderness,
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  SPEAKER_01: he goes out into the wilderness and kills his brother.
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  SPEAKER_01: And then God says, this is the consequences of your poor decision.
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  SPEAKER_01: You will be a wandering nomad.
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  SPEAKER_01: And what does Cain do?
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  SPEAKER_01: He says, what?
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  SPEAKER_01: No, I'm going to build a city for my son.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so he does not learn from the wilderness and a life in the wilderness that God is good.
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  SPEAKER_01: What he does is he builds a city.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: So then in Genesis 11...
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  SPEAKER_01: We have the Tower of Babel
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  SPEAKER_01: where it seems like there's this like incredible warrior hunter,
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  SPEAKER_01: hunter slayer it talks about in Genesis 11, dude named Nimrod.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it seems like that we already have destruction hitting personal relationship
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  SPEAKER_01: with Adam and Eve,
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  SPEAKER_01: then hitting Adam and And Adam's sons,
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  SPEAKER_01: as he has children in his own image,
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  SPEAKER_01: is what Genesis 5 says, which led to this rebellion with Cain.
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  SPEAKER_01: So Cain's building a city,
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  SPEAKER_01: not following God's discipline to take him out into the wilderness to deliver him
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  SPEAKER_01: of himself.
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  SPEAKER_01: He starts buying into city building.
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  SPEAKER_01: Then in Genesis 11, it says that Nimrod is beginning to organize.
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, that's an inference, but we see that we've got Nimrod right there in the story.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I think it's Nimrod who's leading the people to organize this building a tower
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  SPEAKER_01: to reach up to God.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so now we have almost the organization of rebellion and city building that happens.
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  SPEAKER_01: And this is something that can happen in all of us,
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  SPEAKER_01: that the world system can lead us to a place where we try to be adequate in and
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  SPEAKER_01: of ourselves or in and of ourselves reach up to God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And in some ways, religious structures are all built upon this.
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  SPEAKER_01: But there's certain entire...
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  SPEAKER_01: Systems of countries that tried to dominate the world from Egypt to Babylon to Assyria to Rome.
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  SPEAKER_01: There's this in the book of Revelation talks about this spirit of the Antichrist,
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  SPEAKER_01: this city building that is built into all of us that wants to rob us of surrendering
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  SPEAKER_01: to God and his good story.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so we're trying to build to make a name for ourselves.
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  SPEAKER_00: So basically nothing new.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, this is nothing new.
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  SPEAKER_01: This has been going
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  SPEAKER_00: on forever.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's the amazing thing about this series is these are prophetic voices from old
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  SPEAKER_01: and it's nothing new, but it can manifest itself in what looks new.
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  SPEAKER_00: We just still don't listen.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
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  SPEAKER_01: We don't believe that God's story is good.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we're even saying there's no need of God.
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  SPEAKER_01: God is dead, which you know that's ridiculous.
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  SPEAKER_00: When we don't learn from people of the past, we don't learn from our own mistakes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so we continue in these patterns.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
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  SPEAKER_01: So then on the other hand, we have God's kingdom.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so God's kingdom is to be discovered, to be found.
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  SPEAKER_01: Like Hebrews 13,
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  SPEAKER_01: 14 says,
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  SPEAKER_01: For here we do not have an enduring city,
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  SPEAKER_01: but we are looking for this city that is to come.
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  SPEAKER_01: So we're promised a city of God that's going to come.
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  SPEAKER_01: And at the end of Revelation, that's what we see.
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  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
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  SPEAKER_01: Is that we see that there is a city that is built by God.
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  SPEAKER_01: And if you and I are part of his kingdom,
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  SPEAKER_01: we are to discover it like the jewels in the field where the guy discovered it,
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  SPEAKER_01: sold all that he had to purchase it and give his life to it and see it grow
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  SPEAKER_01: in his life.
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  SPEAKER_01: That's the kingdom, which is an upside down kingdom.
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  SPEAKER_01: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: That the way to experience the upside down kingdom is to die,
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  SPEAKER_01: is to serve,
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  SPEAKER_01: is to discover the kingdom in places
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  SPEAKER_01: where it doesn't seem like there's much kingdom.
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  SPEAKER_00: I was thinking about how, I know there's four metaphors we're going to be talking about.
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  SPEAKER_00: You mentioned those in the beginning.
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  SPEAKER_00: In this particular metaphor, the city builder, what would be some...
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  SPEAKER_00: I guess the core agenda for someone who's a city builder.
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  SPEAKER_00: So you may not be all of these for different metaphors,
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  SPEAKER_00: but we tend to lean more toward one or a couple of these.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so the core agenda is I will make my life work through resources I can control.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then the preoccupying question around a city builder is, am I adequate?
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  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then the deepest fear of someone who is a city builder is inadequacy, being inadequate.
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  SPEAKER_00: And then the angry demand that we give to other people is that I need you to affirm me.
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  SPEAKER_00: Affirm me.
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  SPEAKER_01: Let's go back to the core agenda.
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  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
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  SPEAKER_01: So it's like,
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  SPEAKER_01: I want to build something so that I am significant or I have resources
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  SPEAKER_01: and I'll do whatever I can to bring someone around my vision and what I want
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  SPEAKER_01: to see happen to make my name great.
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  SPEAKER_01: Now, all of our motives are mixed at best, that all of us have some of this within us.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: You know,
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  SPEAKER_01: because there was a part of me in the early days that I had a heart
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  SPEAKER_01: to see people experience Jesus the way I did.
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  SPEAKER_01: But in my brokenness and in my insignificance,
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  SPEAKER_01: my feelings of or my desire to be significant,
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  SPEAKER_01: I strive to say one day I'm going to build a mega church.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there was city building striving in the midst of even some of my good motives.
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  SPEAKER_01: Does that make sense?
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  SPEAKER_01: So there is this core,
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  SPEAKER_01: Jenna, and I wanted to share my vision and to bring other people around it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I was able to do that of having a vision.
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  SPEAKER_01: And some of it was for disciple making,
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  SPEAKER_01: but other of it was to be the largest, you know, multiplying church in the world.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so there is this in all of us, there's this mixed motives.
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  SPEAKER_01: And so it's very dangerous to For us to desire to build something
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  SPEAKER_01: in many ways we use God and say we're going to honor God with it.
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  SPEAKER_01: But in reality, it undermines God's kingdom and what he is trying to do.
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  SPEAKER_00: That's really good.
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  SPEAKER_00: Is there something that happened in you that changed this?
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  SPEAKER_01: Well, suffering helps a lot,
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  SPEAKER_01: meaning just,
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  SPEAKER_01: and the more I desired to follow and grow in Christ,
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  SPEAKER_01: and the more I saw in his scripture,
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  SPEAKER_01: the more I realized that really what God has called us to is a path of suffering
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  SPEAKER_01: and disciple-making,
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  SPEAKER_01: suffering that comes with disciple-making that began to,
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  SPEAKER_01: in some ways,
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  SPEAKER_01: overcome The cultural pool or my desire to build something significant
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  SPEAKER_01: and put my name upon it.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I began to catch a clear vision from him, which is really hear from him and obey.
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  SPEAKER_00: Right.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that began to take over more of my life.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen that in you.
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  SPEAKER_00: I mean, nobody would know better than I would about how many things that you have said no to.
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  SPEAKER_00: That could have furthered that city building mentality and thought because
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  SPEAKER_00: so many people would ask you for your resume.
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  SPEAKER_00: You're going to be a big preacher boy.
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  SPEAKER_00: And just over and over again,
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  SPEAKER_00: you would wrestle with those things and just say, no, I'm not doing that.
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  SPEAKER_00: No, I'm not going to do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: No, that's not what God wants for us.
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  SPEAKER_00: No, that's not what God wants.
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  SPEAKER_00: And so for that, I'm grateful.
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  SPEAKER_01: I appreciate that.
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  SPEAKER_00: In some ways,
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  SPEAKER_00: but it's not because if we're not doing what God wants, it's not going to be easier.
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  SPEAKER_01: I think one of the biggest stakes that I put in the heart of the city building
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  SPEAKER_01: within me was refusing to build a building.
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  SPEAKER_01: And there was a time when we were growing like crazy at crossroads.
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  SPEAKER_01: And all of a sudden we start jumping way past 200 really fast.
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  SPEAKER_01: And people started asking me, what's your vision?
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  SPEAKER_01: What's your vision?
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  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I would say, well, we want to meet publicly in house to house.
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  SPEAKER_01: We want to see lives transformed.
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  SPEAKER_01: We want authentic healing communities.
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  SPEAKER_01: They said, no, what's your vision?
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  SPEAKER_01: What they meant was, what's your vision for building a building?
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  SPEAKER_01: And what kind of services are you, what kind of consumer goods are you going to provide for us?
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  SPEAKER_01: And I remember having that conversation and it just haunted me.
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  SPEAKER_01: And by the end of the week,
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  SPEAKER_01: I said that we are moving away from Sunday and we're going to Saturday night so
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  SPEAKER_01: that church people,
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  SPEAKER_01: people from that, we were starting to attract people from other churches.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I said, I'm not doing that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I remember,
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  SPEAKER_01: I think it's Judges 7, where God said, Gideon, I was trying to think, who is it?
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  SPEAKER_01: Gideon, who God whittled down the army.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I just believe God spoke to me about that.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that was one of the core things that I committed to multiplication.
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  SPEAKER_01: And people thought I was nuts.
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  SPEAKER_01: And I was, I mean, I was crazy for Christ and what he wanted to do.
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  SPEAKER_01: But that was kind of the,
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  SPEAKER_01: in some ways,
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  SPEAKER_01: kind of the death knell in us trying to do church growth and a true commitment
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  SPEAKER_01: to discipleship multiplication.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I remember that day, those days.
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  SPEAKER_00: And it was definitely countercultural to the church culture to do that.
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  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
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  SPEAKER_01: And it was incredible freeing because we celebrated on Saturday night and
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  SPEAKER_01: then it allowed our communities to engage people on Sundays and to have
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  SPEAKER_01: a real slow time.
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  SPEAKER_01: It was an incredible adjustment,
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  SPEAKER_01: but it probably was not the one that was most culturally accepted.
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  SPEAKER_01: And we did not build a building.
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  SPEAKER_00: It definitely wasn't on the church growth checklist.
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  SPEAKER_01: No, not at all.
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  SPEAKER_00: So do we want to talk a little bit more about this preoccupying question of am I adequate?
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  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I mean, so we constantly find our significance and adequacy.
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  SPEAKER_01: We try to build it ourselves rather than in Christ, I am significant.
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  SPEAKER_01: In Christ, I am adequate.
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  SPEAKER_01: He is enough.
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  SPEAKER_01: What leads us to suffering is believing that Christ is enough and
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  SPEAKER_01: that means we can suffer through anything.
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  SPEAKER_01: So I'll do the right things for the right reasons no matter the results
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  SPEAKER_01: because Christ is enough.
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  SPEAKER_01: Once He becomes your enough and your adequacy and your significance,
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  SPEAKER_01: you can walk through anything believing and trusting that He is good.
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  SPEAKER_01: And that's where we need to get to.
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  SPEAKER_01: But it's very difficult.
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  SPEAKER_01: We try to do other things to make ourselves appear adequate or significant.
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  SPEAKER_01: We'll chase fame.
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  SPEAKER_01: We'll chase money.
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  SPEAKER_01: We'll make pacts with the devil.
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  SPEAKER_01: Most of the pacts with the devil that people have made in our culture is motivated by this.
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  SPEAKER_01: I mean, and Jesus went out into the wilderness again.
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  SPEAKER_01: He was taken out into the wilderness, led by the Spirit.
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_01: And he had to face the very temptations that all of us will face.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's the beautiful thing about our Savior is he himself was tempted like we are tempted.
• 17:51
  SPEAKER_01: And it says that,
• 17:53
  SPEAKER_01: do you want to see,
• 17:54
  SPEAKER_01: how about the lust of the eyes,
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: the lust of the flesh,
• 17:57
  SPEAKER_01: and the pride of life were all the things that the devil tempted him on.
• 18:01
  SPEAKER_01: And he comes back with Deuteronomy over and over again.
• 18:04
  SPEAKER_01: You shall not test the Lord your God.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_01: Man does not live by bread.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: And so he comes back with, I know that God's story and his word is good.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: And my adequacy and my significance is in him,
• 18:16
  SPEAKER_01: devil, not anything you want me to make a pact with.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: And we, in our flesh and in our brokenness,
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: make all kinds of agreements with the enemy who's here to steal,
• 18:26
  SPEAKER_01: kill, and destroy us from connecting at the deepest level with God and others.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: And that's how we get on that path.
• 18:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what I hear you saying is we may not be saying, oh, devil, I'm making a pact with you.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: But in a subtle way,
• 18:40
  SPEAKER_00: we're making agreements by not putting our hope and our trust in the right things,
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_00: in the right person, which is Jesus.
• 18:48
  SPEAKER_00: Instead,
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: we're in through temptation,
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: giving into those things and doing things that we shouldn't be doing.
• 18:55
  SPEAKER_01: That's the very subversive or subtle way of putting it.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: And absolutely.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_01: But I believe that there are famous people and rich people in our culture
• 19:03
  SPEAKER_01: that have intentionally made packs at the deepest level saying,
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: yes, I want to have that.
• 19:11
  SPEAKER_00: I see.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so you're right that most of us,
• 19:14
  SPEAKER_01: it's not that way,
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: but there are people who truly have said,
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_01: I care about power so much that I will sacrifice whatever it takes.
• 19:23
  SPEAKER_00: To have the power that I want.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_01: To have the power.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 19:26
  SPEAKER_01: And that goes on at a deep level with many famous,
• 19:30
  SPEAKER_01: wealthy,
• 19:31
  SPEAKER_01: powerful people in our world because they've chosen city building rather
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_01: than discovering the kingdom and living out the kingdom.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_00: Wow.
• 19:43
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I mean,
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: and I think the point I was trying to make is that those things can be more obvious.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 19:49
  SPEAKER_00: And sometimes the subtle ones, we don't really know we made it.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: We don't realize we made a pact with the devil.
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember someone telling me that their counselor told them that
• 19:59
  SPEAKER_00: when we say things like, I'm never going to do that again, that we're making a pact.
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: And it may not,
• 20:05
  SPEAKER_00: we have to ask ourselves,
• 20:06
  SPEAKER_00: was that I'm never going to do that again,
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: a pact with the devil, or is that an agreement with God?
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_01: Interesting.
• 20:12
  SPEAKER_00: Because sometimes we say things not realizing that we're not agreeing with God.
• 20:17
  SPEAKER_00: We're agreeing with the enemy.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_01: And what you're saying is more true.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, I belong to Jesus.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: But even in belonging to Jesus,
• 20:24
  SPEAKER_01: out of our brokenness and a lot of our ministry is motivated by broken values
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: and striving.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: And pain.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_00: So we get in a painful situation and we say,
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: well, I'm never going to let a person hurt me like that again.
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_00: That's correct.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: With Christ and learning to connect because it's really weird because it's like
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: the only way that we can connect with God and other people is to learn how to deal
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: with our pain and to suffer in order to do it.
• 20:58
  SPEAKER_01: And there's rich depth that comes through it.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: But instead, what we do is we experience pain and say, I refuse to connect.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_00: Which is a pact.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so I refuse to connect.
• 21:10
  SPEAKER_01: And so then we lose what the enemy has stolen from us.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_01: He's killed that life within us and he's destroyed it.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: And we've agreed with him rather than agreeing with God and that his story.
• 21:22
  SPEAKER_01: And that he is worth suffering through and it's worth doing whatever it takes
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: to discover his kingdom.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: And his kingdom includes incredible gifts and beautiful adventure and crazy,
• 21:34
  SPEAKER_01: exhilarating on the edge of life living.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: But with it, it also comes with pain, suffering and difficulty.
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have to work through that stuff in order to get there.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what happens is, is these urges take us away from it.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_01: And city building is,
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_01: oh, no, I'm not going to discover your kingdom and go through all the difficulty.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to get mine,
• 21:55
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm going to build my stuff,
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: and I'm going to build my kingdom, and I'm going to make myself famous for Jesus.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_01: And that is a big issue as we all of a sudden start having this get famous
• 22:08
  SPEAKER_01: for Jesus mentality rather than I'm going to make Jesus famous.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and that's how we fill our...
• 22:15
  SPEAKER_00: And so what we're saying is the answer, there's this deep fear of inadequacy and insignia.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Significance, perfect love casts out fear.
• 22:33
  SPEAKER_01: So we find our adequacy in Christ and realize, oh, he is enough.
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: I love him.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to trust him with all that I got.
• 22:42
  SPEAKER_01: And then that ends up leading to a breakthrough of connecting with God and other people.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so, but we believe the lie of I'm inadequacy.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: And so then we start striving for adequacy.
• 22:53
  SPEAKER_01: I'm insignificant.
• 22:54
  SPEAKER_01: And so we start trying to have a big ministry and start trying to do all kinds
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_01: of stuff and pumping it out on social media and all kinds of stuff,
• 23:03
  SPEAKER_01: striving to be something rather than knowing I already am someone
• 23:07
  SPEAKER_01: who is significant.
• 23:09
  SPEAKER_01: I am loved by Jesus and I'm going to live that out.
• 23:12
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 23:13
  SPEAKER_00: So when we work with people,
• 23:15
  SPEAKER_00: working with people whose mutual competencies enable them to achieve a common goal.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_00: So this is an opportunity for false connection.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 23:22
  SPEAKER_00: Can you talk about that a little bit?
• 23:23
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: And so what happens is,
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_01: is that instead of connecting upon Christ in an authentic relationship
• 23:29
  SPEAKER_01: that is relational and not organizational, we move into transactional relationships.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_01: Here's my vision.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_01: Here's what I want you to be,
• 23:40
  SPEAKER_01: and here's what I believe God wants us to be,
• 23:43
  SPEAKER_01: and you come join me to accomplish it,
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: and we will almost run over people to get there.
• 23:49
  SPEAKER_01: And I've talked about this before,
• 23:51
  SPEAKER_01: but you have people that are so committed to an organization and its vision
• 24:00
  SPEAKER_01: that they believe that people need to either get on the bus or get off or get run
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_01: over.
• 24:04
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 24:05
  SPEAKER_01: And it starts becoming built upon transactions.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: So I will use you to fulfill a role and a position at this place.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_01: And that's what matters most is to help fulfill this vision.
• 24:15
  SPEAKER_01: That to me is not kingdom.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Until we don't need you anymore.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_01: And so people are dispensable.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: They're transactional.
• 24:23
  SPEAKER_01: They're thrown away.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: It's not anything we see the way Jesus treated people and the way we see
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: that we're called to treat people from the word of God.
• 24:32
  SPEAKER_00: Well, and we've seen this,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: you know,
• 24:33
  SPEAKER_00: with several people that we know that have ministries,
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_00: organizations,
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_00: and I've just watched them be really good friends with people
• 24:42
  SPEAKER_00: while they had something that they needed.
• 24:44
  SPEAKER_00: And it wasn't intentional.
• 24:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's just built into the way things are.
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: But then as soon as they don't need what that person has to offer anymore,
• 24:53
  SPEAKER_00: they need something else, then that's their new best friend.
• 24:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it just, after a while, you start realizing, Is this relationship just transactional?
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_01: And unfortunately,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: you know,
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: we need to use our resources to see, to discover the kingdom and to see it expand.
• 25:13
  SPEAKER_01: So money is a part of it, but money leads to lots of transactional things.
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_01: And it has a real danger side.
• 25:23
  SPEAKER_01: It's supposed to be used as a tool.
• 25:26
  SPEAKER_01: You know, we use...
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_01: We use money as a tool.
• 25:30
  SPEAKER_01: We don't use people.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: We love people.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: We don't love money.
• 25:35
  SPEAKER_01: But when we love money, then all of a sudden we start using people.
• 25:40
  SPEAKER_01: And when we love our vision and what we want to see our organization become more
• 25:46
  SPEAKER_01: than people and will even treat people poorly as a result of it,
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_01: I question whether that's really Kingdom.
• 25:54
  SPEAKER_01: I think that's city building.
• 25:55
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:56
  SPEAKER_00: And it's really easy to fall into that.
• 25:57
  SPEAKER_01: I've been there.
• 25:58
  SPEAKER_01: That's what I'm talking about on my journey.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: I have struggled with this a lot.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_01: And some of the related stuff that happens is there's jealousy,
• 26:06
  SPEAKER_01: there's competition,
• 26:08
  SPEAKER_01: there's celebrating others' misfortune,
• 26:12
  SPEAKER_01: there's dependence on compliments that I have
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_01: to have everybody tell me how great I am,
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_01: which is real dangerous because when you speak in front of a bunch of people and
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_01: When you're good at it, you hear a lot of feedback.
• 26:25
  SPEAKER_01: And so you start believing and reading your own mail and slip in to
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_01: a dangerous level of arrogance.
• 26:33
  SPEAKER_01: That to me is one of the problems with our pulpit centered churches.
• 26:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's not participatory.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_01: And it doesn't mean that there's not teaching gifts,
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_01: but the way that we do it is built around someone's messages and it exalts them
• 26:46
  SPEAKER_01: to such a place that they start believing arrogantly things about themselves
• 26:51
  SPEAKER_01: and it leads to their fault.
• 26:53
  SPEAKER_00: One of the ways that I see this really affecting us in the body of Christ is
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: the more we have Orgs,
• 27:03
  SPEAKER_00: churches with names,
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: all these different things that we have in the Christian community,
• 27:07
  SPEAKER_00: the harder it makes for us to work together.
• 27:11
  SPEAKER_00: Because everything that we do is focused on my vision and what we think God has given us.
• 27:19
  SPEAKER_00: And he might have given us that vision.
• 27:22
  SPEAKER_00: However,
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: there has to still be room for us to hold that very loosely in order to work
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: with other people.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: And also when money is involved, it makes it really difficult.
• 27:32
  SPEAKER_00: And so it makes it a lot more difficult for us to work together.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_00: Instead,
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: we always talk about this,
• 27:38
  SPEAKER_00: like everybody will be over here doing this one thing,
• 27:42
  SPEAKER_00: but we know that if we would just work together, we would be better.
• 27:45
  SPEAKER_00: And it really hurts and is a killer for So true.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, we incorporate things and create logos and it creates egos
• 27:58
  SPEAKER_01: and all this stuff ends up creating competition, just like our business system.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_01: But we're not supposed to be competing businesses.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_01: We're supposed to be completing the work that God has given us.
• 28:13
  SPEAKER_01: And he says that it's good work and he'll be faithful to complete it,
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: but we've got to get out of the way.
• 28:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's challenging,
• 28:21
  SPEAKER_01: as you described,
• 28:22
  SPEAKER_01: in our system when everything is about Competing and trying to provide
• 28:28
  SPEAKER_01: the best religious goods and services for Christian consumers by saying we're going
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_01: to grow this organization by whatever people want rather than we each are going
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: to make disciples and teach people that you have to die to multiply and
• 28:44
  SPEAKER_01: that suffering is a key part of life instead
• 28:47
  SPEAKER_01: of we're providing you all these services and therefore you give us money to do
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_01: that.
• 28:52
  SPEAKER_00: It's almost like we,
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: instead of us getting,
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: we need to get back to a more simple,
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: what are the key visions,
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: statements that Jesus has made in the Bible and stay focused around those instead
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: of all of our individual visions, because it takes us away from the core vision.
• 29:11
  SPEAKER_01: I believe that to be true.
• 29:12
  SPEAKER_01: Just like even the, I mean, I've used it and I've been guilty of it.
• 29:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like I said, this, I'm, I'm, Yes, I'm preaching to the choir.
• 29:19
  SPEAKER_01: I'm sharing my journey of struggling and how we've moved
• 29:23
  SPEAKER_01: to being spiritual parents instead of church growth experts or growing churches
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_01: that we have said we're going to discover and disciple through the kingdom.
• 29:36
  SPEAKER_01: And The reason why I know this is because I've experienced it.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 29:42
  SPEAKER_01: So that's why we're sharing this is because this has been part of our journey
• 29:48
  SPEAKER_01: and what we've learned along the way.
• 29:50
  SPEAKER_00: So if we want to bring this back,
• 29:51
  SPEAKER_00: we're saying that if you have tendencies toward being a city builder,
• 29:57
  SPEAKER_00: then it is an urge.
• 29:59
  SPEAKER_00: It is a A characteristic within us that is getting in the way of you connecting at
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: the deepest level.
• 30:06
  SPEAKER_00: Is that what we're saying?
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: That's correct.
• 30:08
  SPEAKER_00: And so if you were to say like if someone was going to take a step today,
• 30:12
  SPEAKER_00: what would you say would be kind of a step that they should take today based
• 30:16
  SPEAKER_00: on what they've heard?
• 30:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, awareness is a big part of it, which then should lead us to repentance.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: Just saying, God, forgive me.
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_01: I want to see your kingdom.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_01: I want to discover your kingdom.
• 30:30
  SPEAKER_01: Help me make the decisions to die that John 12, 24 talk about.
• 30:37
  SPEAKER_01: Unless a kernel of wheat falls and dies, it cannot reproduce anything.
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_01: And so if we want to see the reproduction of disciples,
• 30:47
  SPEAKER_01: churches and leaders and to see his kingdom discovered,
• 30:51
  SPEAKER_01: developed and expand the way God designed it to,
• 30:55
  SPEAKER_01: then we have to stop the city building.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just talk briefly before we come to an end about what is God's strategy
• 31:02
  SPEAKER_00: to help us get to this place of repentance?
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_01: It's the wilderness.
• 31:07
  SPEAKER_01: So notice that when Cain went out into the wilderness, what did he do?
• 31:10
  SPEAKER_01: He tried to build a city.
• 31:12
  SPEAKER_01: And so over and over again,
• 31:14
  SPEAKER_01: God's wanting to take us out into the wilderness to know that his story is good
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: to trust him through the wilderness so that we can enter into his promises.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_01: And Jesus went through this same process.
• 31:25
  SPEAKER_00: But we don't like the wilderness.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_01: And so where Adam and Eve and Israel failed, Jesus prevailed.
• 31:32
  SPEAKER_01: He overcame and trusted God and his good story through the wilderness experience.
• 31:39
  SPEAKER_01: And so we have to trust that God is good in the wilderness.
• 31:42
  SPEAKER_01: And every one of us has to go through wilderness experiences to change.
• 31:49
  SPEAKER_01: And
• 31:52
  SPEAKER_00: I read that in multiple books,
• 31:56
  SPEAKER_00: but one was Emotionally Healthy Spirituality talks a lot about that and working
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: through, have you had a dark night of the soul?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: And until you have,
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: it's almost like there's a level of connection with God and others that is going
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: to be lacking.
• 32:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_01: So this whole thing is about everyone has to face wilderness experiences.
• 32:16
  SPEAKER_01: But in those experiences, do you trust God and that his story is good?
• 32:21
  SPEAKER_01: And can you live like you're in the garden or on the mountain of God or in the city
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_01: of God while you're in the midst of the desert?
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_00: So maybe not happy about it.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_01: No.
• 32:31
  SPEAKER_00: But you're trusting the person of Jesus.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_01: There's lamenting that comes with it and difficulty and honesty and authenticity
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: and vulnerability.
• 32:40
  SPEAKER_01: But there has to be a trusting that God is good and that his story is good in
• 32:44
  SPEAKER_01: the midst of wilderness experiences.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: I think a great...
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_01: Series to listen to is the Bible Project podcast on the wilderness
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_01: and see how significant it is as kind of a meta narrative,
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_01: a theme that is consistent from Genesis to Revelation.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_01: We see this whole wilderness experience as part of our journey of entering into
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_01: the promised land of all that God's good story has for us.
• 33:10
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're listening today,
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: I would suggest that you not be afraid of the wilderness,
• 33:16
  SPEAKER_00: not be afraid of going into those dark places.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because if we know that God is who he says he is, then his story is good.
• 33:27
  SPEAKER_00: He will bring us out to the other side and we will be better for it.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_01: And part of what we need to do is instead of trying to build our own city and
• 33:36
  SPEAKER_01: to build our own kingdoms, Is to learn how to give it away.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_01: Freely, I receive.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_01: Freely, I give.
• 33:45
  SPEAKER_01: And the way to gain is to give.
• 33:46
  SPEAKER_01: Press down, shaken together, overflowing.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_01: Give and it shall be given.
• 33:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's really good.
• 33:51
  SPEAKER_01: And that is the key.
• 33:54
  SPEAKER_01: When you start giving away.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_01: Then you know that you're no longer city building
• 34:00
  SPEAKER_01: because city building means I'm going to hold on to this tightly.
• 34:03
  SPEAKER_01: Meaning all these people belong to me and somehow they're going to support me and pay for me.
• 34:08
  SPEAKER_01: And so I don't release them to start new things because I need them to fund me.
• 34:13
  SPEAKER_01: That's transactional.
• 34:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's no different than the corporate world.
• 34:16
  SPEAKER_00: You don't want to train someone how to do your job because you're afraid they'll take your job.
• 34:19
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 34:20
  SPEAKER_00: And so this happens in every element of our life.
• 34:22
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, and all of our lives as followers of Christ should be to give it away, to die, to gain.
• 34:29
  SPEAKER_01: It makes no sense.
• 34:30
  SPEAKER_01: It's upside down.
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_01: But this is the depth of what it means to walk with Jesus in our lives.
• 34:36
  SPEAKER_01: And city building robs us of those connections.
• 34:39
  SPEAKER_01: So let's discover his kingdom.
• 34:41
  SPEAKER_01: Let's sell our entire lives for it.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_01: And let's live it out as connectors with God and with others.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: That's good.
• 34:48
  SPEAKER_00: So we look forward to you joining us on the next part two of the Connecting Series.
• 34:53
  SPEAKER_00: And we're going to talk about the second metaphor.
• 34:56
  SPEAKER_00: See if you're one of the ones that fit into that or if maybe this is more your tendency.
• 34:59
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it would be really great for you to listen to all four.
• 35:02
  SPEAKER_00: If you haven't done so already, would you like or subscribe these podcasts?
• 35:07
  SPEAKER_00: It helps other people find them.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And we just enjoy being with you every week.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 35:12
  SPEAKER_01: We are grateful to share our stories of life, love and leadership.
• 35:18
  SPEAKER_01: And to journey with you.
• 35:19
  SPEAKER_01: So we're grateful for you.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: All right.
• 35:21
  SPEAKER_00: God bless.
• 35:22
  SPEAKER_01: Blessings.
• 35:25
  [music]