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Jacques Lacan on the Pervert // 225 · PlasticPills Critical Theory & Philosophy

• 0:07
  Speaker 1: Hello, Hello, Hey, Hey, that's my job. Hello, hey stealing?
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: Who's a pervert? We're pointing fingers right here? All right,
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: we all are. We're doing lacan again. The last time
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: we were together it was lacan psychosis, and this is
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the other What do you call it abnormal?
• 0:31
  Speaker 2: Without being Yeah, we could say that the reality it's
• 0:35
  Speaker 2: not it's not it's probably not even I mean it's
• 0:37
  Speaker 2: I would say I would guess that neurotics are not
• 0:40
  Speaker 2: just a plurality, but they're probably the majority.
• 0:42
  Speaker 3: Maybe I'm wrong, but I would imagine neurotics or the majority.
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: To be a neurotic means you go through two steps.
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: To be a psychotic means you don't come through steps,
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: and the pervert goes through one step, stuck in the middle.
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: Psychotics are a little bit alien. They're kind of like
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: frightening because you don't really know what's going on there.
• 1:04
  Speaker 1: But perverts are kind of fun. I feel like, I
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: don't know that I know any Lacinian perverts, but this
• 1:10
  Speaker 1: seems like they're kind of fun.
• 1:12
  Speaker 3: People had to tell I feel like to know, maybe
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: you'd have to know about I mean, I think there
• 1:16
  Speaker 3: are obviously other sons, but I mean, if you know it,
• 1:19
  Speaker 3: Like if you have a good friend and you know
• 1:21
  Speaker 3: their sex lives in detail, maybe that would be a hint.
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: I mean, at least for Freud, it's they're obvious things
• 1:27
  Speaker 4: like fetishism, right, like people having foot fetishes or fetishes
• 1:32
  Speaker 4: for berries and things.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: But although like sadomasochistic, like I think you can still
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: be neurotic and be into those things. Also, that's the
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: other thing.
• 1:40
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can do you can do perverted things while
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: being neurotic. This is the structure and go again. The
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: thing you're not supposed to do with psychoanalysis is point
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: at people and say, oh, this guy's a pervert for sure, So.
• 1:53
  Speaker 3: We're going to do that. But we are going to
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: do that.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: I was not going to say, well, Steven Miller is
• 1:58
  Speaker 1: for sure a pervert.
• 2:00
  Speaker 3: Well, I mean I think we're gonna we're gonna do
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: it by saying we're not doing it, being like, well,
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: you know, we're not supposed to do this, but like,
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: here's the here's maybe the evidence. At least I have,
• 2:08
  Speaker 3: like a kid, like I have a bit of a
• 2:09
  Speaker 3: case to make for like Trump, But we can do
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: that later.
• 2:13
  Speaker 4: There's the sense in which we're all I.
• 2:14
  Speaker 3: Mean, I have a case. I know what the case is.
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: I can give it. I can give an account for it.
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: I don't actually necessarily think he is, but I can.
• 2:21
  Speaker 3: I can certainly. I think I can give a like
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: an account of why people could read him that way.
• 2:26
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like the sexy things with Trump, or like the
• 2:29
  Speaker 4: grab him by the pussy thing and the stormy Daniels thing,
• 2:32
  Speaker 4: like there's not and and now the all the Epstein
• 2:34
  Speaker 4: stuff too, like so.
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: Let's save that though. Yeah, but we should get that,
• 2:39
  Speaker 3: we should get the different.
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: Evidence the armchair psycho analyze with, well it's more than that.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's the normal. We should make this distinction. Yes,
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: the normal distinction of being a pervert means weird sex stuff. Yeah,
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: and this includes weird sex stuff, but it doesn't necessarily
• 3:00
  Speaker 1: include where it's sex. This is a symbolic arrangement to
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: be a proper qui structural.
• 3:07
  Speaker 4: I saw that Freud divides it. Freud's always so simple
• 3:10
  Speaker 4: compared to Lacana, Like he divides it into there's like
• 3:14
  Speaker 4: your sexual object, like what you the object of sexual desire,
• 3:19
  Speaker 4: and then there's the sexual aim, so like the method
• 3:22
  Speaker 4: about which you go to obtain gratification, and both of
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: those can be I guess like those can diverge from
• 3:30
  Speaker 4: the norm that's the language Freud would use, and they
• 3:33
  Speaker 4: can also like not be aimed at the whole person.
• 3:36
  Speaker 4: So like a sexual object could be like a part
• 3:39
  Speaker 4: like a and and it could also be like a
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: non human thing like buttons for example, or it could
• 3:46
  Speaker 4: be a part of a person like feet or something
• 3:49
  Speaker 4: like that too, So you have like the fetish for
• 3:52
  Speaker 4: parts of people and like, yeah, so those would be
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: sexual objects. And then I don't know about sexual aims.
• 3:58
  Speaker 4: I guess that could be more are associated with sadism
• 4:02
  Speaker 4: and masochism, because that's like you get the sexual pleasure
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: from non sexual acts, acts that aren't focused on like
• 4:09
  Speaker 4: the genitals and things.
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, there's the when you when you metaphorize perverts, it
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: can be a lot of things. I was doing some
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: back research for this on what like people say about perversion,
• 4:21
  Speaker 1: and a lot go with what jik says. And I'm
• 4:25
  Speaker 1: gonna I'm not I'm not the biggest Lacan guy that
• 4:29
  Speaker 1: there ever was, but I'm gonna say I'm pretty sure
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: that Jijak spreading misinformation on perverts, not least making those
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: movies called perverts Guide. There's nothing to do. Yeah, there's
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: nothing to do with Lacanian perversion that has to do
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: with those I'm not sure why they're called that.
• 4:45
  Speaker 4: Another thing that was wondering about that, Yeah, yeah, the
• 4:48
  Speaker 4: perverts guide thing.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he was. He was talking about terrorism and there's
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: like a Dutch filmmaker that got shot, not are stabbed.
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: You remember it, we were like young. It was a
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: long time ago.
• 5:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 5:01
  Speaker 1: He commented on this and said, like there's a you
• 5:04
  Speaker 1: could a terrorist has a perverted or may have a
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: perverted structure because they become in their mind the instrument
• 5:13
  Speaker 1: of the law like God or i'llah, whatever you're doing. Now,
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: this this doesn't really actually fit because if you're if
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: you're like if you're a religious nut, if you are
• 5:26
  Speaker 1: a zealot willing to go out and commit an act
• 5:29
  Speaker 1: of public violence, that's not actually being an object in
• 5:33
  Speaker 1: this in this algebra, because you're going out and taking
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: agency on yourself. Because the pervert being an object is
• 5:42
  Speaker 1: not like I'm going to go I'm not going to
• 5:44
  Speaker 1: go kill someone for God. It's more like I'm gonna
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: be God's dildo, you know, like actually actually an object.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: But we're going to get into this structure. Maybe we
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: can figure out what this means. Maybe we can get
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: into some case studies because those are why. But yeah,
• 6:01
  Speaker 1: what do you think we should start with here?
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: We should probably describe the structure of the underlying structure
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: and formation of the pervert and then kind of talk
• 6:09
  Speaker 3: about how it applies, because I think if we start
• 6:11
  Speaker 3: I think it can be very confusing if we start
• 6:14
  Speaker 3: saying like, oh, this fetish or this whatever, because it's
• 6:17
  Speaker 3: like unless you understand the underlying structure, Because like I
• 6:20
  Speaker 3: said before, you can definitely be a neurotic and have
• 6:23
  Speaker 3: those kinds of perversions. Right, It's really more the structure
• 6:26
  Speaker 3: like then than like just being really into like a
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: foot fetish or something like that, right, or a button fetish.
• 6:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and you can have also fetishes and not necessarily
• 6:36
  Speaker 1: be a pervert. This is like a truly compulsive fetish,
• 6:40
  Speaker 1: not like you know, I like fucking around with ropes.
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: It's like I need I need a rope around my
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: neck to come that kind of thing.
• 6:47
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly exactly, So maybe we should start with the
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: underlying structure. And I was also going to say, I did,
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: like just quickly when you were when you were talking there,
• 6:57
  Speaker 3: I was like, maybe, well we can talk about this afterwards,
• 6:59
  Speaker 3: but I think there might actually your reason that fits
• 7:01
  Speaker 3: for why you should have caused his movies a perverts guide.
• 7:03
  Speaker 3: But anyway, well we can save that.
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: Maybe it wasn't him who called them that it could.
• 7:07
  Speaker 4: Be could have been an editorial decision to.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: Be the director. Can I actually just start with an example.
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: I know you guys didn't read this, so I'm really sorry,
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: but if I can tell you the story of one
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: particular pervert, then maybe we can relate back to it.
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: And that's a structure. The structure will make more sense
• 7:24
  Speaker 1: than saying a over barred, a over disavowal and d
• 7:28
  Speaker 1: that comes in. Yeah, but it's a true case done
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: by a psychoanalyst. And if you want the source, i'll
• 7:35
  Speaker 1: send it to you later. But this is the description
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: of the perversion. This is a Lacanian analyst and a
• 7:43
  Speaker 1: Lacanian version of the perverts. So we're not dealing with
• 7:46
  Speaker 1: Freudian or Klein or whoever else deals with perverts. Right,
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: So the subject is a guy who's working at his
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: job and he does this frequently. Okay, he has to
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: do this, so it's a compulsion. He leaves the store
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: where he's the manager, as though he's going on a
• 8:03
  Speaker 1: business errand in his car and I'm going to be quoting.
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: He changes his route so that it takes him through
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: a residential neighborhood and looks for a barber shop in
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: which there is only one barber. The barber has to
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: conform to a certain pre selected type. He must not
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: be lean, must not have long hair, etc. When the
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: patient finds this shop, he returns there a couple of times,
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: unless he becomes afraid that the barber suspects something. In
• 8:30
  Speaker 1: a state of anxiety, there's a key term, so he's
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: in a state of anxiety. He enters the barber shop,
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: sits in the chair, and asks to be shaved. He
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: sensed pleasurable excitement and anticipated relief as the barber draped
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: the sheet around him, adjusted the towels, and arranged the
• 8:49
  Speaker 1: position of the chair. When the barber was almost finished
• 8:52
  Speaker 1: shaving him, he would rub his hand over his face
• 8:55
  Speaker 1: and complain that it was not smooth enough. The barber
• 8:59
  Speaker 1: would then relather and reshave him again. This continues. He
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: continues again, says it's not smooth enough. This happens more
• 9:08
  Speaker 1: than once several times. He would then notice that the
• 9:10
  Speaker 1: barber was becoming annoyed and started breathing heavily with the
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: barber's increasing annoyance. This is this is key. With the
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: barber's increasing annoyance and his heavy breathing as he repeatedly
• 9:23
  Speaker 1: had to draw his razor over his neck again and
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: again and again, he would have an erection and ejaculate
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: in his clothes under the barber sheet. Then he would
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: pay the barber and leave. So, yeah, he's pestering poor barbers,
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: roams the neighborhood stocks looking for one barber who's a target,
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: makes him shave him four or five times, then comes
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: in his jeans and goes back to work. And again
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: he asked, he has to do it this way. This
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: is this is the way that he's going to come
• 9:56
  Speaker 1: if he's going to right.
• 9:59
  Speaker 4: So that definitely fits what we would think of as perversion,
• 10:03
  Speaker 4: is like, that's a weird way to get off.
• 10:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and interestingly it may not be a parent on
• 10:11
  Speaker 1: the surface, but this is actually a sadist. So there
• 10:16
  Speaker 1: are masochists, there are sadists what we call in our
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: culture sado masochism, but joining them together that is impossible.
• 10:24
  Speaker 1: In the Lacinian formula, you're either a sadist or a
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: masochist and also a fetishist.
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: But they're also not opposites. They're not like inversions of
• 10:34
  Speaker 4: one another. They're both.
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: They're both perverse structures. They can't they can't actually go together.
• 10:39
  Speaker 1: What is that stupid show Fifty Shades of Gray? Is
• 10:43
  Speaker 1: that a Is that like a masochist with a sadist?
• 10:47
  Speaker 1: I forgot, I'm asking the wrong people, But I think
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: if I recall correctly, that's a masochist and a sadist,
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: and they go well together because they complement each other.
• 10:56
  Speaker 1: That's not in That's not how it goes in real life, because.
• 11:00
  Speaker 4: The sadist wants to cause anxiety and like someone else.
• 11:04
  Speaker 4: I think maybe maybe that like repetition of the shave, but.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: I think so does the masochist. Like that's why they're
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: actually similar, because I think the masochist also wants to
• 11:14
  Speaker 3: like make like because the mascist is kind of like
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: demanding that the other person kind of impose some kind
• 11:20
  Speaker 3: of law on them. Yeah, right, Like they both actually
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: weirdly want That's why they're not opposites, right, because I
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: think they like Weirdly both have a similar like, well
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: I know that that for the for the masochists, right,
• 11:32
  Speaker 3: like they kind of act like, oh, they're doing it
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: for the other person's pleasure, right, They're like, oh, I
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: want you to like do something to me, and I
• 11:39
  Speaker 3: want to be this object for you. But that's actually
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: like kind of a phony impulse. It's really about their
• 11:45
  Speaker 3: own enjoyment. Uh, it's not really about the others.
• 11:49
  Speaker 4: Yeah, there's like the fantasy part, Like so Lacan's like
• 11:53
  Speaker 4: three registers helps, right, like imaginary symbolic real and and
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: for and so this symbolic is the thing that the
• 12:01
  Speaker 4: pervert has trouble getting to. Like the symbolic is when
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: you fully go through separation like the neurotic, then you
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: get to this symbolic, that symbolic castration. The pervert doesn't
• 12:14
  Speaker 4: go through that. So in yeah, in the imaginary they're like, yes,
• 12:17
  Speaker 4: I'm all for the other person, but in reality they
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: want to like make the law real, and so they're
• 12:26
  Speaker 4: I guess the limits of their tolerance becomes like the
• 12:30
  Speaker 4: real limit, and then the fantasy that supports it is
• 12:35
  Speaker 4: like no, I'm giving myself to this person, like I'm
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: I'm totally trying to give this person like the pleasure
• 12:42
  Speaker 4: of whatever watching my pain. So there's that that the
• 12:47
  Speaker 4: registers comes into play. Yeah, I think you're describing it
• 12:50
  Speaker 4: pretty much right there.
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the guy in the barber chair who comes under
• 12:54
  Speaker 1: the under the barber beb his limit like you just said,
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: you said the words, the limit is the real. The
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: limit is the real because he eventually just really ejaculates. Yeah,
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: the symbolic, but he has to. This is another interesting
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: thing about the pervert is they have to set up
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: this whole scenario and repeat the scenario, so you have
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: different different fantasies in this. In this case of the
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: barber one, the analyst went back to childhood and it
• 13:22
  Speaker 1: goes back to like seeing pigs be slaughtered by getting
• 13:25
  Speaker 1: their throats cut at at the same time as he
• 13:30
  Speaker 1: was being forced in private school to learn how to
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: speak like a like a native pole instead of speak
• 13:38
  Speaker 1: with a Jewish accent. So there's that all the stealing
• 13:42
  Speaker 1: of the voice, which is the agency of the subject,
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: and then that being displaced onto the pigs getting their
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: throat cut and the sadistic element. I know we think
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: of sadistic like oh yeah, you're burning people with cigarettes like,
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: that's not the guy the forcing the barber to continue
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: to shave you. You until the barber gets upset and
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: it starts getting annoyed and starts getting like, come come on,
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: what the fuck are you doing? That's pushing up against
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: the limit, and that limit pushing is what perverts do
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: to get pleasure. Yeah, the neurotics, basically, we're obsessed with
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: the limits. We know where they are, where we push
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: them as kids. Then we find out where they are,
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: and then we're horrified when other people push them, push
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: the limits when they're around us.
• 14:28
  Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, what you said there. Yeah. The massachist wants
• 14:31
  Speaker 4: to make this other person this, this person involved in
• 14:36
  Speaker 4: their masochism, this says, bring them to the point of
• 14:40
  Speaker 4: enunciating a law, pronouncing a sentence, sometimes by generating anxiety
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: in them. And yeah, so maybe like the barber just
• 14:48
  Speaker 4: saying okay, like that's enough. What the hell is going
• 14:50
  Speaker 4: on here? You're crazy? Yeah, exactly, exactly, exactly, so achieved.
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: They want to hear that that's enough, because they don't
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: hear inside their own head, right, Neurotics always hear Okay,
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: that's enough. We tell ourselves that's enough. They don't hear that.
• 15:07
  Speaker 4: Part because the neurotic can channel it into language, right,
• 15:12
  Speaker 4: and Leacn says juwiysance is prohibited to whom whoever speaks,
• 15:18
  Speaker 4: So that that would suggest like symbolic castration. You know
• 15:24
  Speaker 4: you you've you've gone from you've gone from alienation through separation,
• 15:30
  Speaker 4: symbolic castration. Now desire has been given a name and
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: is fully integrated into the symbolic, which can be you know,
• 15:40
  Speaker 4: manipulated through speech. You have the object of desire can
• 15:45
  Speaker 4: now be displaced from signify or to signify. You have
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: the chain of signification in play. For the pervert, they're
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: they're not really there. They're like sort of staging that transition,
• 15:56
  Speaker 4: but yeah, they can't do it in the symbolic like yeah,
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: prohibited to speech.
• 16:01
  Speaker 3: Well, I think an important concept that comes up here
• 16:04
  Speaker 3: is disavowal. Freud discussing how boys who sometimes when they
• 16:09
  Speaker 3: perceive a girl's genitals they like deny the absence of
• 16:13
  Speaker 3: a penis while simultaneously registering it, so like it's it's
• 16:16
  Speaker 3: like a weird pair. That's this is where that paradoxical
• 16:19
  Speaker 3: stance comes in of like I know very well but
• 16:21
  Speaker 3: all the same. So it's like both denying and registering
• 16:25
  Speaker 3: it at some level. And whereas like in repression, which
• 16:27
  Speaker 3: is I think what happens to the to the neurotic
• 16:31
  Speaker 3: an impulse or thought, it's a kind of like pushed
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: into the unconscious and then returns like it kind of distorted,
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: but like disavowal, it's like something is both acknowledged and denied.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: And I think like that that then like kind of
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: sets the stage that has to do with like how
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: the the like paternal metaphor is is like is like
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: kind of not not absorbed in the same way as
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: as in as in as in neurosis. But I feel
• 17:03
  Speaker 3: like I lost my train of thought there, so let me.
• 17:04
  Speaker 4: Yeah, the example here is the little boy sees the
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: sees his sister naked and says, oh, she has a
• 17:10
  Speaker 4: small we wi and like, yeah, he's because that's what disavowal. Yeah,
• 17:15
  Speaker 4: Fink says, like disavowal or Freud's word for for llougnung,
• 17:21
  Speaker 4: would actually be better translated as as denial, and it's
• 17:25
  Speaker 4: actually in French it's translated as denis, which is close
• 17:29
  Speaker 4: to denial. So we say disavowal. It's this fancy word
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: like to avow something is to swear swear it like
• 17:37
  Speaker 4: I vow you know, I avow this, you know you
• 17:40
  Speaker 4: acknowledge it in a strong sense. But to disavow as
• 17:44
  Speaker 4: to yeah, like unswear to say i'd swear I didn't
• 17:47
  Speaker 4: see it. Yeah, And the funny thing is to say
• 17:52
  Speaker 4: I swear that it's not there is a weird thing
• 17:56
  Speaker 4: because something can't be absent unless there's already a symbol
• 18:00
  Speaker 4: all like grid that prepares it, like the example of
• 18:04
  Speaker 4: like you can't just walk into a library point in
• 18:06
  Speaker 4: an empty space and be like a book is missing.
• 18:08
  Speaker 4: You have to there has to be like a Dewey
• 18:10
  Speaker 4: decimal system indicating that there should be a book there.
• 18:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and this and then this way. Like so there
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: is alienation that occurs right in language because there's still
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: like some partial naming. But I think it's like the
• 18:22
  Speaker 3: thing that doesn't happen is like separation. And I think
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: this is where he talks about like how the father's
• 18:27
  Speaker 3: law is acknowledged only partially, right, So it's like the
• 18:31
  Speaker 3: pervert knows the father has not imposed full castration, but
• 18:35
  Speaker 3: stages it through others. So like that's where like the
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: staging comes in. So it's like because whereas obviously in
• 18:43
  Speaker 3: the in the neurotic both things happen, and then obviously
• 18:45
  Speaker 3: in the psychotic like not basically none of it happens.
• 18:47
  Speaker 3: Although some alienation happens, but like it's not really it's
• 18:51
  Speaker 3: it's it doesn't really like fully happen. So then this
• 18:54
  Speaker 3: is where like I guess the the the desire or
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: the need to like stage things age law because it's
• 19:01
  Speaker 3: like the full castration of the of the name of
• 19:03
  Speaker 3: the father hasn't occurred, So like there's some kind of
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: a drive towards like staging something that is imposing law.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we are, I keep saying we neurotics. Neurotics kind
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: of understand this stuff metaphorically, but the perverts have to
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: do it with like physical scenarios almost. That's why you
• 19:24
  Speaker 1: get That's why you get leather and whipped in chains
• 19:29
  Speaker 1: and buttons and whatever the whatever the displacement comes onto
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: or I have to go around and find a find
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: a poor barber to pester.
• 19:39
  Speaker 4: Yeah, they have to force a limit somehow, they have
• 19:42
  Speaker 4: to force a limit to emerge.
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: Instead of the symbolism and the metaphoric turn happening inside
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: your head, it kind of happens in real life.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And also it's interesting because I think this also
• 19:56
  Speaker 3: has to do with like kind of the relationship to
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: tow juissance to like an imaginary and the imaginary fallus,
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: meaning like the penis as pleasure or something like that,
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: like as versus like symbolic fallus, and like I think
• 20:09
  Speaker 3: in the neurotic the like there's an exchange where like
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: the neurotic renounces this kind of pleasure, like this material
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: like or rather imaginary pleasure, like so the imaginary fallus
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: and exchanges it for the symbolic fallus. So neurotics are
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: much more interested. And by when I say symbolic fallus,
• 20:31
  Speaker 3: I mean like social recognition, self esteem, like being seen
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: by others is having value, so you're kind of exchanging
• 20:39
  Speaker 3: it and you're like, okay, well, like I will repress
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: my like embodied pleasures in a way because I want
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: to participate in this society where like other people are
• 20:48
  Speaker 3: going to see me as like valuable and contributing to
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: this society. But the pervert like refuses basically that sacrifice,
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: won't hand over their imaginary juissance. They're like imaginary fallis,
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: And I think, like that's that's like where there's like
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: as as pills was just saying, like, we can think
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: about it, but it's like we can kind of imagine
• 21:10
  Speaker 3: that sort of, but it's like the urge, the drive
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: to just like enact these scenarios is very much like
• 21:17
  Speaker 3: at the level like I guess of like the image
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: like imaginary like trying to achieve this kind of pleasure
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: sort of the way that I understood it.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so the neurotic, if the neurotics walking down the street,
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: it's a hot day and there's a there's this there's
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: a fine just a dime walking towards him, and she
• 21:35
  Speaker 1: she's curvy, she's got one of those dresses, you know,
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: the dresses that are made from that like the sweater material,
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: so they're really there, form fitting, they're elasticky. It's hugging
• 21:46
  Speaker 1: her curves. And if she's she's walking towards you, and
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: you know, you know that on the other side of that,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: there's an ass to match just rolling around rolling around
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: in that dress. But as a neurotic, you know that
• 21:59
  Speaker 1: you can't turn to look because there are other people around. Yes, yes,
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: this did have a point. There's other people around, and
• 22:08
  Speaker 1: if they see that, your head's on a swivel. As
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: soon as she walks past, then they're gonna they're gonna
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: judge you, So you're gonna look like a creep. Your
• 22:17
  Speaker 1: esteem comes from repressing swiveling around and checking out those
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: beach balls that are bouncing around in there. And you're
• 22:25
  Speaker 1: gonna keep your head forward, or you're gonna try to
• 22:29
  Speaker 1: try to look in the reflection of a store window
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: or something like that. You're gonna try to not get
• 22:34
  Speaker 1: caught because you know that this is that the the
• 22:37
  Speaker 1: law is worth following here. But the the pervert, this
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: is this is kind of a bad example because this
• 22:45
  Speaker 1: is not necessarily gonna get the pervert off, But the
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: perver won't. The perver won't care. The pervert's gonna swim
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: around or swing around. He's gonna say, girl, I want
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: to eat Thanksgiving dinner off that ass he wants actually,
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: or depending on the type of perfect but he could
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: want to provoke anxiety in her and get off on
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: the anxiety provoked there.
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: Or I wonder, I wonder if if we okay we neurotics, Yeah,
• 23:09
  Speaker 4: I wonder, because we all have a basic.
• 23:11
  Speaker 3: Level of per Maybe one of you is a pervert.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: Maybe we'll see but I think since we all do
• 23:18
  Speaker 4: have a level we all okay, I'll volunteer, No, we
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: all have a basic level of perversion, right, So maybe
• 23:25
  Speaker 4: that's why we all enjoy that meme with the guy
• 23:29
  Speaker 4: checking out the girl and then the girl looking at
• 23:32
  Speaker 4: the guy really angrily because she's obviously like his girlfriend
• 23:36
  Speaker 4: or something, and he's just like openly oggling some girl
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: that has just walked past. And we have so much
• 23:43
  Speaker 4: fun with that meme, right, We put like the heads
• 23:46
  Speaker 4: of companies and things on it and we play with
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: it all the time. But we all have that like
• 23:52
  Speaker 4: but the neurotic again, you can see it in the
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: symbolic there as a meme, but we all enjoy it
• 23:58
  Speaker 4: because it's like a basic like perversion thing, right because
• 24:02
  Speaker 4: like Freud says, children like young children are all polymorphous perverts, right,
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: Like masturbation is the basic one of the basic things, right,
• 24:11
  Speaker 4: Like the father comes along or someone comes along and says, like,
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: you know, stop masturbating your your the father is going
• 24:19
  Speaker 4: to cut your penis off if you continue to do that,
• 24:22
  Speaker 4: so stop.
• 24:23
  Speaker 1: And if I had a.
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: Pervert that yeah, of course, and so the neurotic will
• 24:30
  Speaker 4: you know, make that sacrifice the neurotic will, but the
• 24:33
  Speaker 4: pervert will refuse to make that sacrifice. Will keep the pleasure, right, won't,
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: won't give it up like saying this is my pleasure
• 24:42
  Speaker 4: and I'm not giving it over to the I'm not
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: giving it over. So they don't like accept the law
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: of the father on a symbolic level.
• 24:51
  Speaker 3: And that's why no, no, go, go go ahead and say
• 24:54
  Speaker 3: the family.
• 24:55
  Speaker 1: I was just gonna say the family. The family looking
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: structure of this is again it's not like prescriptive, but
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: if it happens, it's usually something like overbearing mother, absentee father,
• 25:08
  Speaker 1: the father doesn't the father or the father function doesn't
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: show up enough. Yeah, exactly to separate my ego from
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: my mama.
• 25:18
  Speaker 3: To set the law, to set the limits, like in
• 25:21
  Speaker 3: the case study in the chapter that we read limit, Yeah,
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: in the in the case study. Uh, there's a case
• 25:27
  Speaker 3: study in the chapter of the Pinks book. And uh,
• 25:31
  Speaker 3: it's like about like someone who has a very overbearing
• 25:34
  Speaker 3: mother who almost treats him like a source of her pleasure,
• 25:37
  Speaker 3: like I mean talks about I think in analysis he
• 25:40
  Speaker 3: talked about feeling like his mother was using him as
• 25:42
  Speaker 3: a dildo, which is like really disturbing. But you know,
• 25:45
  Speaker 3: I'm not like so so and then and and like
• 25:49
  Speaker 3: and I think he would often be with her as
• 25:51
  Speaker 3: a child when she'd be getting undressed and he would
• 25:53
  Speaker 3: see her naked all the time, and she'd kind of
• 25:55
  Speaker 3: give him little pet names like my little my little
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: button or whatever.
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: And uh, and she didn't actually sexually abuse him, I think.
• 26:02
  Speaker 3: No, no, no, no, it was just like it was just
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: it's just like just how he felt. Yeah, just just
• 26:07
  Speaker 3: really overbearing who like had him at her side like
• 26:10
  Speaker 3: the whole time in ways that it's not like actual
• 26:13
  Speaker 3: sexual abuse, but it's just like suggestive and like kind
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: of weird. She's just there all the time, and because
• 26:18
  Speaker 3: he's a child, he's like seeing her naked and having
• 26:21
  Speaker 3: weird feelings and she's kind of setting the tone of
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: like how he feels about things in the way that
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: they name things.
• 26:26
  Speaker 4: And I think and Alison even recalled getting off at
• 26:30
  Speaker 4: one point during the changing routine.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: Maybe yeah, there's like maybe some weird sexual feelings there
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: that like as a child, it's like there and it
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: all mixed up.
• 26:38
  Speaker 4: But barber chair friends, like the kids started getting off
• 26:42
  Speaker 4: with it.
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: I wouldn't. I don't know if I would go that far,
• 26:44
  Speaker 3: because like this is I mean, he's talking about being
• 26:46
  Speaker 3: a child around age six five six, so this is
• 26:49
  Speaker 3: like it would be like very nascent kind of you know,
• 26:53
  Speaker 3: like rumblings of like libido, right that like weird feelings,
• 26:57
  Speaker 3: you know. But I guess what I wanted to get
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: to was like the father is kind of absent, like
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: like around but not really around. But how there's like
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: a crucial memory he has when he had appendicitis as
• 27:08
  Speaker 3: a child and he woke up and he remembered seeing
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: his father kind of smiling at him, looking at him
• 27:14
  Speaker 3: and saying like, oh, I've got your appendix here like
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: in my hand. And how like this was supposedly in
• 27:20
  Speaker 3: this case study, a pivotal moment where like I guess
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: he was prevented from being a psychotic. That that is
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: like a key moment in that case study of like
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: at least acknowledging that like the father's there and is
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: like I guess aware, but hasn't fully instituted, like the
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: law of the father, the name of the father.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: When I read these, when I read these freaking psychoanalysis books,
• 27:42
  Speaker 1: they always have like the perfect.
• 27:44
  Speaker 3: I know, I know, I thought the same thing to
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: his dad.
• 27:47
  Speaker 1: Has a jar with his organ in it, and this
• 27:49
  Speaker 1: represents the know of the father, Like, how the hell
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: does this stuff really happen?
• 27:54
  Speaker 4: The appendix becomes like the the your dick's floating.
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: There's like I'm gonna I'm gonna castrate you. And suddenly
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: he's not a psycho.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, here it is, I have, I have, I have,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: I have the exact I have the exact quote. It says.
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: Uh.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: He wakes up to the site of his father holding
• 28:09
  Speaker 3: Jean's appendix in a jar or Jean Jean's appendix in
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: a jar, smiling radiantly at the excised organ. Jean never
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: again plays along with his mother's treatments, right, refusing henceforth
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: to be the penis for her with his whole body,
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: with his entire being. The father's presence at his bedside
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: and approval of the organ removal seems to finally bring
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: about a kind of displaced circumcision or or lost symbolizing castration,
• 28:37
  Speaker 3: a first division or alienation between Jean and his mother.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: So the father bars or cancels out the mother here
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: in the sense briefly described earlier.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so if I was writing a novel, if I
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: was writing a novel about castraight symbolic castration, it wouldn't
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: even be that on the nose. And I know it
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: so happened.
• 28:56
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And he goes on to talk about Jean's mother,
• 28:58
  Speaker 3: you know, continues to view Jean's quote my little man,
• 29:02
  Speaker 3: and lets him know that his penis is inadequate to
• 29:05
  Speaker 3: give for everything she needs. She refers to his penis
• 29:07
  Speaker 3: as tom petit boo your little end, or bit the
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: little suggesting too little. Often, however, she simply calls it
• 29:15
  Speaker 3: tomboo your end, So like she's still like doing these weird,
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: like playfully things that are like, you know, not exactly
• 29:23
  Speaker 3: child abuse, but just kind of bizarre behaviors that are
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: like overbearing.
• 29:27
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and then the second phase of that and then
• 29:29
  Speaker 4: this is where you know, separation interrupted, right, like where
• 29:33
  Speaker 4: the pervert structure kind of solidifies. Is that then the
• 29:38
  Speaker 4: father he the the analys and there recalls overhearing the
• 29:44
  Speaker 4: father refer to buttons, which sounds very much like you know,
• 29:49
  Speaker 4: the French for like, what was it tomboo your your end,
• 29:54
  Speaker 4: your little penis thing? And then and then and then
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: always that backwards, And he wasn't but he thought that
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: the father was referring to the to the mother's genitals
• 30:04
  Speaker 4: with bhutan, and so then he developed this fetish for
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: buttons as a way of supplementing the name of the father.
• 30:14
  Speaker 4: The father naming the mother's desire in this case, but
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: because it's a case of perversion, that name didn't like.
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: It wasn't a full naming, it was ambiguous. The child
• 30:27
  Speaker 4: wasn't sure, and you know this is kind of like okay,
• 30:30
  Speaker 4: So the father does that, and then now the more
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: buttons the better for this guy. Now he chases women
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: who wear like clothes with like rows of buttons, and
• 30:40
  Speaker 4: the more buttons the better, And this becomes a way
• 30:44
  Speaker 4: of supplementing the name of the father and like staging
• 30:49
  Speaker 4: that separation that I guess was interrupted or wasn't completed
• 30:55
  Speaker 4: because the father, the type of father Freud had in mind,
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: was the father who like forcefully tries to separate the
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: boy from the mother, and maybe something goes wrong in that,
• 31:06
  Speaker 4: you know, behind the father's back, the mother keeps winking
• 31:09
  Speaker 4: at the father or the child and the child mother
• 31:12
  Speaker 4: connection kind of stays intact and isn't fully separated. And
• 31:16
  Speaker 4: but it's this forceful father and the pervert refuses to
• 31:21
  Speaker 4: give up the separate to separate, but then think is
• 31:25
  Speaker 4: like now, but we now need to we should focus
• 31:28
  Speaker 4: on this like contemporary father who is like a weaker
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: figure than this forceful father. Maybe you know one of
• 31:36
  Speaker 4: those like fathers who's kind of progressive and doesn't think that.
• 31:39
  Speaker 4: They don't want to be the authoritarian. Yeah, they don't
• 31:43
  Speaker 4: want to be the.
• 31:43
  Speaker 1: Back in the day, we didn't have so many perverts
• 31:45
  Speaker 1: because we drank from the hose.
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: They want to be liked.
• 31:48
  Speaker 4: They don't want to be the one who does the punishment.
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: They like want to be this like nice guy friends
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: with the kid, not like the authority figure.
• 31:55
  Speaker 3: I mean, it kind of makes sense that there'd be
• 31:57
  Speaker 3: less that there'd be less perverts in like a more
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: authoritarian father culture.
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: He describes them, but he describes them so negative. I
• 32:04
  Speaker 4: don't know the weaker figure and is often confused about
• 32:08
  Speaker 4: his role as a father or the or like the
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: weaker and indifferent father or something like that. This like
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: different focus.
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: I don't know. It's at least helped sounds like James Dobson.
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: Bullshit, it's James Dobson. I don't even know who that is.
• 32:23
  Speaker 1: He's a Christian guy who says you should beat your kids.
• 32:26
  Speaker 3: I mean, look, I I obviously I definitely think. Uh,
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: don't you think it kind of makes sense though, Like
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: if this is like obviously, if if this is like
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: how perversion forms, like, wouldn't it make sense where like
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: when social customs were stronger and more universally like obeyed,
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: and that fathers were more authoritarian, that there'd be like
• 32:48
  Speaker 3: fewer perverts. I don't know. That just kind of makes
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: makes sense.
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: Now, how come on? Like, the problem is the mother
• 32:53
  Speaker 1: is showing not even acknowledging the father at all. As
• 32:56
  Speaker 1: soon as her son's born, she's like full on obsessed
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: with her son. He's an only child. That's another problem. Yeah,
• 33:02
  Speaker 1: I'm being natalist. You gotta have you got to have
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: more kids so your kids aren't perverts.
• 33:07
  Speaker 4: But in the state, paternal function is the problem.
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: This this bouton thing, the button thing. The the name
• 33:17
  Speaker 1: of the father. We usually think of it correctly as
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: you know the father, Your father's going to come home,
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: so we name him. But in this case, the name
• 33:24
  Speaker 1: of the father, the father gives name to the mother's
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: absence of a penis, so he names her Lac and
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: he names it button. So this guy now has a
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: fetish for buttons, because the more buttons he's got around him,
• 33:38
  Speaker 1: the less likely his overbearing mother is to absorb him
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: into well.
• 33:43
  Speaker 3: Amusingly too, he actually finds the appearance of a single
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: button quite disturbing, actually, so specifically it has to be
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: like and the more it's like a series of buttons
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: all sewed together like a cross, He's like, that's that
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: really does it for him.
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: I find this part of psychoanalysis so fast because just
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: the tom and backwards is Bouton, and then Bouton in
• 34:06
  Speaker 1: his unconscious becomes attached to real buttons like words. Words
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: here are real life, which is kind of the thing
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: that we can't really understand anymore, but that the fact
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: that this can happen, it's still it's my favorite part
• 34:21
  Speaker 1: of these examples because it's fascinating.
• 34:23
  Speaker 3: And what was the thing in.
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: The in the in the Vienna Freud movie, the tit
• 34:28
  Speaker 4: mouse thing, those the words just come together like that,
• 34:32
  Speaker 4: and the analyst has to notice these sorts of things
• 34:35
  Speaker 4: like yeah, Tom boot being the reversal of Bouton, Yeah,
• 34:39
  Speaker 4: and then do something with that.
• 34:41
  Speaker 1: The examples in this in these books, they're just too good,
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: like how do you how do you have? This is
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: better than a better than a novel.
• 34:48
  Speaker 4: And then there's the example of Hans, a little Hans
• 34:51
  Speaker 4: we mentioned as well, the kid with the fear of
• 34:53
  Speaker 4: the horses.
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: Now is because he's he's mentioned in everything, but is
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: he a to figure out?
• 35:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm not sure.
• 35:02
  Speaker 4: And there's there's a perverse structure there that's pointed out anyway,
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: is that in like the horse the phobia, the object
• 35:11
  Speaker 4: of the phobia, the horse becomes like a name of
• 35:15
  Speaker 4: the father, and that contributes to the separation of the
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: mother from child. Right, so that just like you were
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: describing with the button guy, like you know, he's refused
• 35:26
  Speaker 4: to be now the dildo anymore, and he's trying to
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: stage this separation and for some reason the paternal function
• 35:34
  Speaker 4: is insufficient because you know, the dad's a hippie or whatever.
• 35:40
  Speaker 3: And or just absent like or just like not around much, right,
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: Like it's not it's not like I don't I see
• 35:46
  Speaker 3: your I get your concern and like there, but but yeah,
• 35:49
  Speaker 3: like it's not just about like it's not that politically,
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: it's really more just about like somehow kind of absent.
• 35:54
  Speaker 4: Well, yeah, it can even be the overbearing father, yeah,
• 35:57
  Speaker 4: and just refuses to give up, like refuses the separation entirely.
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: It doesn't matter in any case the paternal function, I
• 36:07
  Speaker 4: mean in all of them, right, in psychosis, in perversion,
• 36:11
  Speaker 4: and in even in those forms of neurosis, like the
• 36:15
  Speaker 4: paternal function goes wrong somehow or it's like inadequate somehow,
• 36:20
  Speaker 4: And in this case it's inadequate to separate. It's inadequate
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: at the separation phase, and so the pervert has to
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: take it on themselves to stage that separation. And unlike
• 36:33
  Speaker 4: the neurotic, who you know, can repress, right, so saying
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: like okay, you know, I don't want to have sex
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: with my mother's slash, sister, slash whatever, that impulse gets
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: repressed or that well, the idea connected to that impulse
• 36:50
  Speaker 4: gets repressed, and that affect, that impulse, that instinct, that
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: sexual impulse gets connected to some other acceptable idea, right,
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: because the super ego judges that to be you know, unacceptable.
• 37:05
  Speaker 4: And so then the neurotic has different levels like that
• 37:08
  Speaker 4: that unacceptable idea sinks down into the unconscious and some
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: other the symptom appears where that affect is connected to
• 37:18
  Speaker 4: some more acceptable thing pervert doesn't have. That the pervert
• 37:21
  Speaker 4: has like these two contradictory things. That's this split ego
• 37:25
  Speaker 4: thing he refers to.
• 37:26
  Speaker 3: That's also that I know very well. But all the same,
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: I'm going.
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: To yeah, exactly, yeah, that's that that and you know
• 37:31
  Speaker 4: that's that's exactly talking about the fetishistic disavowal, like I
• 37:35
  Speaker 4: know very well that it doesn't work, but I do
• 37:38
  Speaker 4: it anyway kind of thing, like Gik loves that joke
• 37:41
  Speaker 4: about it, right, so and that and is really yeah,
• 37:45
  Speaker 4: that's so that is a perverse structure. And but then
• 37:50
  Speaker 4: again it's questionable whether I mean think Think opens up
• 37:54
  Speaker 4: this chapter on perversion saying, most clinicians do not see
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: many patients who can accurately be qualified. It is perverts psychoanalytic,
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: analytically speaking, so it's not a super common thing in
• 38:08
  Speaker 4: in everyday language. Yeah, everyone's a pervert. And like even
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: in freudgen terms like children are perverts, right, Like masturbation
• 38:16
  Speaker 4: is a perversion. It's a it's a it's a non
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: reproductive sexual act, which yeah, yeah, but but like an
• 38:25
  Speaker 4: actual genuine pervert in the psychoanalytic sense of someone having
• 38:30
  Speaker 4: a perverse structure and not having completed that separation phase
• 38:35
  Speaker 4: is not super common.
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: No, yeah, I don't think so.
• 38:40
  Speaker 1: And they're hard to detect is another one.
• 38:42
  Speaker 3: Hard to detect analysis very.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: Hard, and a lot of the times they don't actually
• 38:47
  Speaker 1: need analysis to well.
• 38:49
  Speaker 3: It's very it's very it's very interesting. The reason why
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: they're hard to detect, right, because because it has to
• 38:54
  Speaker 3: do with the fact that they always try to adopt
• 38:56
  Speaker 3: this position as filling the other's desire. So in analysis,
• 39:02
  Speaker 3: like the pervert will often try to stage themselves as
• 39:06
  Speaker 3: like somehow like yeah, exactly, being the perfect analysm, like
• 39:12
  Speaker 3: fixing the desire of the of the other, like to
• 39:16
  Speaker 3: be this like object that kind of plugs the lack
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: in the other.
• 39:20
  Speaker 4: Yeah, because the analyst is supposed to position themselves as
• 39:24
  Speaker 4: the object, as the cause of desire, but the pervert
• 39:28
  Speaker 4: refuses to allow them to adopt that position. So when
• 39:34
  Speaker 4: the analyst is trying to just talk to them, like
• 39:38
  Speaker 4: do the insight therapy highlight things about their what they're
• 39:42
  Speaker 4: saying to them, the pervert doesn't want to have those insights.
• 39:45
  Speaker 4: The pervert doesn't want the analysts to be able to
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: inspire any kind of self knowledge I'm putting it in
• 39:52
  Speaker 4: my own words, which are probably bad ones. But that's
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: that's the thing. The neurotic has a much easier time
• 40:00
  Speaker 4: accepting the analysts, Like I guess this is transference, accepting
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: the analyst as the object a as the object cause
• 40:07
  Speaker 4: of desire.
• 40:08
  Speaker 3: But that's the thing.
• 40:09
  Speaker 4: The pervert wants to be the object ad. The pervert
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: wants to be the cause of desire for the analyst.
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: And so yeah, like you said, they will sort of
• 40:18
  Speaker 4: do whatever the analyst wants. They'll like go along with it,
• 40:22
  Speaker 4: but they'll refuse to let the analyst. They'll refuse that
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: transference that's supposed to happen in psychoanalysis.
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, so they Yeah, precisely, precisely. It's also interesting
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: the gendered thing about like he talks about how it's
• 40:36
  Speaker 3: diagnosed overwhelmingly in men only that like men are perverts,
• 40:40
  Speaker 3: and I think.
• 40:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he says, he says virtually exclusively.
• 40:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, and he might and he kind of I think
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: he might have. I don't know if it's quoting if
• 40:49
  Speaker 3: he said this, or if he was quoting Lacan and
• 40:51
  Speaker 3: saying that like that men are like the weaker sex
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: with respect to perversion. Maybe maybe that was like in
• 40:57
  Speaker 3: the sense that, yeah, that that like they it's pretty much.
• 41:00
  Speaker 3: And the reason for that is because the mother son
• 41:03
  Speaker 3: bond is just like more likely to be eroticized in
• 41:06
  Speaker 3: like a in like a weird way, whereas the mother
• 41:08
  Speaker 3: daughter relationship, it's it's it's way less likely to be
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: in any way even implicitly sort of oh erotically charged
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: around a specific organ right, whereas like in you know,
• 41:20
  Speaker 3: perversions seems to be really related to like the penis
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: and kind of like like this weird mother son and
• 41:30
  Speaker 3: like strangeness with with the boys penis.
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the sons, the son's much more likely to see
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: the father as a rival, and a daughter almost never
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: would see their father as a rival.
• 41:41
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and the father has a much easier time apparently
• 41:44
  Speaker 4: separating the daughter from the mother because he.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: Just says he doesn't have to say no, she just
• 41:49
  Speaker 1: she's like.
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: That, yeah exactly, so so like that so women so
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: so women are are like much more are probably almost
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: always going to be will neurotics or have psychosis.
• 42:00
  Speaker 1: Actually have an example of a female pervert though, if
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: you want to another fun story. The reason I looked
• 42:06
  Speaker 1: this up is because I wanted to, like in their
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: own words describe what being a pervert is like. Because
• 42:11
  Speaker 1: when we're dealing with the psychosis one, I was like,
• 42:14
  Speaker 1: how could you not know if if you did not
• 42:17
  Speaker 1: if you had the imaginary functioning as the symbolic, something
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: has to be constantly going wrong, wouldn't you think? So
• 42:22
  Speaker 1: this is I found a pervert Lacanian perfect diagnostic diagnosis
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: diagnosed female, also describing what it's like. So that's why I.
• 42:33
  Speaker 3: Found oh interesting.
• 42:34
  Speaker 1: But we brought up are the one thing we haven't
• 42:37
  Speaker 1: brought up. We've brought up the becoming the object, and
• 42:40
  Speaker 1: we've brought up the no the no father, the no
• 42:43
  Speaker 1: nom nom no father. But this, uh, the law in
• 42:47
  Speaker 1: general is kind of the important the law and the
• 42:50
  Speaker 1: limit and the social law, and this is kind of
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: something that they wouldn't be able to understand, which is
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: why why all the acting out happens, Because all the
• 43:00
  Speaker 1: acting out is trying to find like, where's the law?
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: Is someone going to stop me? Is someone going to
• 43:05
  Speaker 1: stop me? Is like asking where's the father function? So
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: they exactly they can also recognize that they're looking for this,
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: and then in some cases, in the sadest case, they
• 43:17
  Speaker 1: become a pure instrument of the law, and they get
• 43:21
  Speaker 1: off on being appearance.
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: To me, yeah, and like, and I think it's important
• 43:24
  Speaker 3: too that that like for the for the pervert, like
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: intellectually they obviously understand social laws, they understand, it's more
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: about like is it entrenched in their psyche in their psyche, right, Like.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: They know they're there, but they don't feel them.
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: Like they don't feel them exactly, and that's why they're
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: They try to stage these scenarios where they can and actually,
• 43:41
  Speaker 3: like I guess one way to sort of sum it up,
• 43:44
  Speaker 3: it's like, you know, the mechanism is kind of disavowal
• 43:47
  Speaker 3: I know very well, right, But then the position is
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: like the pervert stages the paternal law where it's weak
• 43:54
  Speaker 3: or absent, so they make the law exist by putting
• 43:57
  Speaker 3: themselves in the place of the father rather than submitting
• 44:01
  Speaker 3: to it. Right, So they keep trying to find these
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: scenarios where they can find the law by basically like
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: being it, trying to find limits. And then they relate
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: to the other by trying to be the object that
• 44:15
  Speaker 3: plugs the other's lack. So they try that and this
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: often produces anxiety in the other and they kind of
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: want that rather than kind of acknowledging their own anxiety.
• 44:24
  Speaker 1: That'll come up in my story here.
• 44:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah, good, I want to hear the story.
• 44:27
  Speaker 1: Quote quote. She remarked often in this context that all
• 44:31
  Speaker 1: of her life she'd felt like her way of experiencing
• 44:35
  Speaker 1: was different from everyone else around her. She could get
• 44:38
  Speaker 1: very heated up, passionate and interested in people things, but
• 44:43
  Speaker 1: it was always transient, like it never really mattered. This
• 44:48
  Speaker 1: is a quotation from her. If only I could at
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: least hate someone, she said, because she felt she could not.
• 44:55
  Speaker 1: Her whole life had been organized around the bidimalized ego
• 44:58
  Speaker 1: interests rather than proper affects and feelings or object relationships.
• 45:04
  Speaker 1: So I found that that's the first part of it.
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: There's not they're kind of watching themselves do stuff instead
• 45:12
  Speaker 1: of feeling the connection to the things that she notices.
• 45:20
  Speaker 1: It seems like everybody else everybody else feels. So then
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: she goes on. But she solves this problem by finding
• 45:28
  Speaker 1: what her her fetish is. As all I'll read quote,
• 45:32
  Speaker 1: she'd always been fair to everyone but involved with nobody.
• 45:36
  Speaker 1: From all this material, it was possible to see very
• 45:39
  Speaker 1: clearly how throughout her life she'd been two people, one
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: who lived in reality, largely reactive to others, quite gay
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: and with a gay gay happening. This is written in
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: the seventies, quite gay and with a tendency to get
• 45:57
  Speaker 1: run down every now and then. And the other her
• 46:00
  Speaker 1: other half, who had stayed very latent and unknowable to
• 46:05
  Speaker 1: herself until these two affairs. So the affairs she has,
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: I'll just bring up one of them, because one's with
• 46:12
  Speaker 1: a language teacher and the others with a mechanic. And
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: it repeats, so it's again that that compulsion. So her
• 46:19
  Speaker 1: very theatrical affair with the with the mechanic. It's funny,
• 46:24
  Speaker 1: it sounds, it sounds precisely like the script to a
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: porn because she she goes to the mechanic, her car's
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: not broken, but he's looking at the car, he's looking
• 46:38
  Speaker 1: under the hood, and then she just starts yapping. So
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: she's yap, yep, yep, yep, yap until she can see
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: that he's getting annoyed. And the mechanic says, like jokingly
• 46:49
  Speaker 1: at first, like can you shut the fuck up, or
• 46:51
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna tie I'm gonna tie a rope around you,
• 46:54
  Speaker 1: or I'm gonna tie a gag around your mouth. And
• 46:56
  Speaker 1: then she goes, yeah, we'll do it, So they end
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: up actually doing it, and then he gags her and
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: ties her up and rapes her. I don't know what
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: the term for, like performance rape play. They do a
• 47:11
  Speaker 1: rape play, and then she keeps going back to the
• 47:15
  Speaker 1: mechanic like I don't know, however often she can, however
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: often she can get away from her husband, and every
• 47:21
  Speaker 1: single time they act out this little this little play.
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: So this is finally the time, the first time where
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: she feels like that other person who is herself, that
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: doesn't live in reality, that's been unknowable and latent. This
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: is the first time that actually feels like it's working.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: I guess would be kind of the terminology, So that
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: would be the undiagnosed pervert to realizing you're a pervert.
• 47:49
  Speaker 1: Is you now found this thing that you need and
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: you actually can't get off any other way. But similar
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: to the other stories, this one is a masochist. But
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: the gagging thing is really important to the analyst who
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: wrote this out because you taking away your speech is
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: becoming an object and then obviously becoming the object of
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: juisance for the other It's the performance thing. Like I said,
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: it's a bad porn and then to get him to
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: respond to her, she has to just keep blabbering on
• 48:24
  Speaker 1: while he's trying to fix her car until he comes
• 48:26
  Speaker 1: and punishes her. So she finally gets to realize the
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: law by by this little theater play that she puts
• 48:36
  Speaker 1: on finding out where the line is.
• 48:38
  Speaker 4: Then that something like that, that kind of fetish for
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: being gagged and rape play is an attempt to prop
• 48:47
  Speaker 4: up the paternal function to establish law, to get the
• 48:52
  Speaker 4: other to pronounce the law. There's the insufficient paternal function
• 48:58
  Speaker 4: is being propped up stage. They're imagined here, and the
• 49:03
  Speaker 4: idea is that separation, like the normal neurotic kind of
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: goes through for the pervert, separation is still the key
• 49:13
  Speaker 4: thing here and separate. There's an anxiety at play, like
• 49:18
  Speaker 4: separation is hard, separation is anxiety provoking, but on a
• 49:22
  Speaker 4: deeper level, separation is actually a huge relief. It's like,
• 49:28
  Speaker 4: you know, separation is a kind of freedom. But the
• 49:32
  Speaker 4: problem is you get I guess there's the pervert has
• 49:37
  Speaker 4: separation anxiety at the same time, and so there's there's
• 49:41
  Speaker 4: a working through of that anxiety by staging separation through
• 49:45
  Speaker 4: this propping up of the paternal function, this attempt to
• 49:49
  Speaker 4: get the other to lay down the law, this sort
• 49:52
  Speaker 4: of taking it into their own hands and acting it
• 49:56
  Speaker 4: out in this play acting kind of thing, propping up
• 50:00
  Speaker 4: the law and limiting jewy songs. It's funny. The neurotic
• 50:06
  Speaker 4: views jewey sauce as something like negative, as as something
• 50:11
  Speaker 4: The neurotic views jewy sauce as something that's not.
• 50:15
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's subversive. To have too much jewy sance is like, uh,
• 50:19
  Speaker 3: is uncomfortable for the neurotic, I.
• 50:22
  Speaker 4: Think, and yeah, And the neurotic hears something like that
• 50:26
  Speaker 4: about a pervert and thinks, oh, look at how much
• 50:29
  Speaker 4: jewey soance the pervert has like access to.
• 50:34
  Speaker 3: There's one In.
• 50:34
  Speaker 4: Reality, it's very anxiety provoking the whole thing. It's not
• 50:38
  Speaker 4: like it's just this amazing walk in the park, Oh
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: my god. Perverts are just more in touch with your
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: sexual selves. It's not like that at all.
• 50:45
  Speaker 3: So there's a way in which like the pervert is
• 50:48
  Speaker 3: like aware of some truth that that like that that
• 50:51
  Speaker 3: neurotics like to deny, which is like the jewy sons
• 50:55
  Speaker 3: associated with authority right and like and like and and
• 50:58
  Speaker 3: how like neurotics will be outraged. Example, when if like
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: a judge kind of says, uh, you know, you're so despicable.
• 51:05
  Speaker 3: If I could have sentenced you to like one hundred
• 51:07
  Speaker 3: and fifty years, I would have because what you've done
• 51:09
  Speaker 3: is like so horrific. And it's like for the neurotic
• 51:12
  Speaker 3: that'll kind of make them uncomfortable because for them, they
• 51:15
  Speaker 3: think that the law is supposed to be this like
• 51:17
  Speaker 3: impartial thing that's real and like this idea that like
• 51:21
  Speaker 3: there could be kind of or like enjoyment, there could
• 51:23
  Speaker 3: be enjoyment in punishing someone. Right, that is like very
• 51:27
  Speaker 3: uncomfortable for the neurotic that like we might enjoy like
• 51:31
  Speaker 3: you know, and like the kind of jewey sance we
• 51:32
  Speaker 3: get from like enforcing laws or like think about you
• 51:35
  Speaker 3: know some hall monitor who like you know, in their identity,
• 51:38
  Speaker 3: they're like, well, I'm just like I'm just following the rules.
• 51:40
  Speaker 3: I'm just doing what the But but like I think
• 51:43
  Speaker 3: the pervert sort of is really in touch in like
• 51:46
  Speaker 3: an extreme way with like the jewey sance associated with that,
• 51:50
  Speaker 3: right that like there is actually huge Jewy sance in
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: like the laying down of the law.
• 51:54
  Speaker 4: Yeah, and like the pervert revels in finding that the
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: moral law is like the law isn't actually just this
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: like objective moral code that it's like rooted in vindictiveness,
• 52:05
  Speaker 4: and they're trying.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: To create it.
• 52:06
  Speaker 3: They're trying to they're trying to find it though like
• 52:08
  Speaker 3: a weird in a weird way, like.
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: So they almost want them to admit that there's a satisfaction.
• 52:13
  Speaker 4: Like the pervert, you know, it finds in prison that
• 52:16
  Speaker 4: they're like these angry guards that will like beat them
• 52:20
  Speaker 4: and stuff like that, and be like this is evidence
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: that there's that there's enjoyment happening here. It's not just
• 52:27
  Speaker 4: like objective justice being administered.
• 52:29
  Speaker 3: There's like this.
• 52:30
  Speaker 4: Vindictive almost like like glory glorying in the punishment, and
• 52:36
  Speaker 4: it becomes this thing, I don't know, it becomes again
• 52:39
  Speaker 4: this like perverse sense of justice, right.
• 52:43
  Speaker 1: And considering the perverts can be certainly cruel based on
• 52:48
  Speaker 1: this like law thing, but it's because they don't get it.
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: They don't get the law the way that a neurotic does.
• 52:57
  Speaker 1: Because neurotics are obsessed are obsessionals at least they're obsessed with.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: The law, yeah, and being seen to be good and
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: conforming to it and seen as as as like a
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: good example of it by others in society, like they're
• 53:08
  Speaker 3: obsessed with the scheme of others.
• 53:10
  Speaker 4: Like kantient ethics is like the example of the neurotic
• 53:15
  Speaker 4: moral code, right, Like kantient ethics is dispassionate, detached, universal objective.
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 53:22
  Speaker 4: And he says here Sperbert seems to be cognizant at
• 53:26
  Speaker 4: some level of the fact that there is always some
• 53:29
  Speaker 4: jewy songs related to the annunciation of the moral code.
• 53:34
  Speaker 1: That wants what morality is in a made up sense.
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: But even we yeah, we take it seriously in our action,
• 53:41
  Speaker 1: but we realize that it's a game. But even knowing
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: it's a game, you can't actually go out and behave
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: like it's a game. You have to exactly take it seriously.
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: The neurocity. The neurotic knows the rules and takes the
• 53:55
  Speaker 1: game very, very seriously. Not life or death, but pretty
• 53:59
  Speaker 1: close the life or death. Now, the distinction there is
• 54:02
  Speaker 1: the psychologist's.
• 54:03
  Speaker 4: Supposed to take pleasure in passing the judgment.
• 54:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, the psychotic doesn't recognize the rules of the game
• 54:10
  Speaker 1: or that there's a game, but the pervert does. And
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: the pervert treats the game as a game, the game
• 54:17
  Speaker 1: that we all realize is a game, but we take
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: it very seriously. They're able to go into the game
• 54:21
  Speaker 1: and also choose not to take it seriously, to play
• 54:24
  Speaker 1: it like and that's that's very scary. Sometimes in some
• 54:28
  Speaker 1: cases that's can be scary for a neurotic, and a
• 54:31
  Speaker 1: neurotic looks at them either with envy or fear envy,
• 54:36
  Speaker 1: because like, look, they get to get off however they want.
• 54:39
  Speaker 1: They're getting off and they're not feeling any shame for it,
• 54:41
  Speaker 1: or they're taking pleasure in this and not apologizing for it.
• 54:46
  Speaker 1: So there's a kind of a there's a kind of
• 54:49
  Speaker 1: we can't or I keep saying we I'm sorry. The
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: neurotic can't really get that, and that kind of makes
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: certain responses like judging them as evil or judging them
• 55:00
  Speaker 1: as or fearing them. One thing we forgot to bring
• 55:04
  Speaker 1: up that I wanted to on this point is the
• 55:08
  Speaker 1: paradigmatic history writer. Example of the psychotic was Judge Schreber,
• 55:13
  Speaker 1: who had a psychotic breakdown and get locked into the
• 55:18
  Speaker 1: asylum for the rest of his days. But the example
• 55:20
  Speaker 1: of the pervert the same, always quoted, oft quoted, literate
• 55:26
  Speaker 1: educated example is the Marquis de Sade, for whom Sadism
• 55:31
  Speaker 1: is named. But all the ink spilled over, I don't know,
• 55:34
  Speaker 1: fear and concern about about Marquis de Sade being read,
• 55:38
  Speaker 1: his books getting banned. All of that is this kind
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: of fear that the neurotic have of the pervert, and
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: he kind of figures is that.
• 55:47
  Speaker 4: There's a tendency for masochistic perverts like masochists to seek
• 55:51
  Speaker 4: out incarceration because of the fact that they will get
• 55:56
  Speaker 4: like they might get brutalized and punished at least in
• 56:01
  Speaker 4: some way, and they like.
• 56:02
  Speaker 1: That, like the the Marquis de Sade did and then
• 56:05
  Speaker 1: had his wife smuggle dildos.
• 56:09
  Speaker 4: So it's like it's like a substitute symbolic crastration seeking
• 56:13
  Speaker 4: out incarceration for masochists because they can't have that true
• 56:18
  Speaker 4: symbolic castration otherwise they'd be neurotics. And and this and
• 56:22
  Speaker 4: then this is the lecon quote recourse to the very
• 56:26
  Speaker 4: image of castration can come as a relieving, salutary solution
• 56:32
  Speaker 4: to anxiety for the masochist. Again that that anxiety associated
• 56:37
  Speaker 4: with separation, but then that like deeper relief that separation
• 56:41
  Speaker 4: is supposed to bring, that they don't have proper access
• 56:45
  Speaker 4: to for some reason or other. So kant is cont
• 56:48
  Speaker 4: is compared there with the with the masochist. But but
• 56:51
  Speaker 4: maybe it would be the same thing for the sadist
• 56:53
  Speaker 4: because it's the victim's anxiety for the sadist that becomes
• 56:57
  Speaker 4: the focus, not that not maybe not I guess that
• 56:59
  Speaker 4: would be connect to their own anxiety obviously, but it's
• 57:02
  Speaker 4: about causing anxiety and someone else, right, Like they don't
• 57:05
  Speaker 4: know if they're going to They revel in creating a
• 57:08
  Speaker 4: situation for someone where like there's possible torture, possible death,
• 57:12
  Speaker 4: but it's all kind of vague and uncertain, and that's
• 57:16
  Speaker 4: what creates you know, their whatever, their victim. That's why
• 57:19
  Speaker 4: you can't really like a sadist can't deal with a masochist,
• 57:23
  Speaker 4: I guess, because there would be no that would just
• 57:26
  Speaker 4: short circuit the whole thing.
• 57:27
  Speaker 3: It wouldn't work.
• 57:28
  Speaker 4: The fantasy would not work with a sadist and a masochist.
• 57:33
  Speaker 1: No, because they're both trying to be the object. Yeah, yeah, exactly, loop.
• 57:38
  Speaker 3: Exactly why I love it. Where there's that joke, remember
• 57:40
  Speaker 3: that joke where it's like what did the what did
• 57:42
  Speaker 3: the massacists say to the sad sadist and he's like
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: uh when he when he asked him, he's like hit me.
• 57:49
  Speaker 3: And then the sadist says, no, there you go, so.
• 57:57
  Speaker 4: They just part ways. It's like the at the social club.
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: Exactly exactly I was gonna. I was gonna kind of
• 58:04
  Speaker 3: make my fun case for for for how we might
• 58:06
  Speaker 3: see Trump as as as a as a pervert. I
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: don't know, is that is it an appropriate time for
• 58:11
  Speaker 3: me to to make my case?
• 58:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah?
• 58:14
  Speaker 4: Oh okay, It's definitely an appropriate time here in the
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: UK because it's going.
• 58:18
  Speaker 3: To Okay, So when it comes to like law and authority,
• 58:22
  Speaker 3: I think we could see Trump in a way as
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: like presenting himself as like lawgiver. Right, He'll always say
• 58:29
  Speaker 3: things like I alone can fix it, only I can
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: do X. And he also doesn't respect institutional norms. Right.
• 58:37
  Speaker 3: He repeatedly stages authority, so even in defiance of things
• 58:41
  Speaker 3: like constitutional checks. So I think we could say that
• 58:44
  Speaker 3: this is kind of matching like a perverse stance of
• 58:48
  Speaker 3: like creating law in place of a weak father. Right,
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: He's like kind of like he's subverting all these things, okay,
• 58:56
  Speaker 3: and then also disavowal. I think it's kind of fun
• 58:59
  Speaker 3: Trump frequently enacts a kind of weird disavowal in the
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: sense that I don't know if like in the same sentence,
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: he'll be like, I know very well, all the same,
• 59:06
  Speaker 3: but it's like, think about like the way he exaggerates
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: things all the time, right, But then he'll obliquely insist
• 59:13
  Speaker 3: on them even if he acknowledges their exaggerations, and he'll
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: say things like, oh, everyone knows this, no one's done
• 59:19
  Speaker 3: it more than this, And it's like he'll get pushed
• 59:21
  Speaker 3: on it sometimes and he'll be like, yeah, like I know,
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: I know, but then he'll just keep doing it. Right,
• 59:26
  Speaker 3: so he'll kind of like admit that he knows the truth,
• 59:29
  Speaker 3: but then he'll still say like, but this is the
• 59:32
  Speaker 3: greatest thing ever bad. No one's ever seen it, no
• 59:36
  Speaker 3: one's ever seen anything like it, and it's like okay.
• 59:39
  Speaker 3: So then there's also like relation to the other's desire,
• 59:43
  Speaker 3: So I would say that like maybe in when he's
• 59:46
  Speaker 3: at rallies or whatever, he positions himself as an object
• 59:49
  Speaker 3: of desire or juissance for the crowd, right, so he's
• 59:53
  Speaker 3: always claiming that he can fill in their lack right
• 59:57
  Speaker 3: about immigration elites decline, right, he he offers himself as
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 3: their fallus, right, that kind of their missing piece, Like,
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 3: as I said before, like only I can fix this,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 3: only I can do that. And then uh, you know
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 3: there's like the refusal of sacrificing his juissance. Right, He's
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 3: obviously known for not giving up pleasures, right, money, status
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 3: in exchange for symbolic respectability. In fact, it seems like
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: he doesn't really care about symbolic the symbolic fallus. He
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: only cares about the imaginary the pleasure. Right.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you can think if you maybe he doesn't like
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 1: having this gaudy gold bathroom or whatever, but he gets
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 1: a gold bathroom because that's what other people think rich
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 1: people should do. Yeah, the imaginary fallus is the gold
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: bathroom exactly.
• 1:00:50
  Speaker 3: So that's kind of like my case. And then obviously,
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 3: like there's obviously arguments against it. I mean I think
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: that in a way, like the one thing that's sort
• 1:00:58
  Speaker 3: of missing is like he does actually seemed to be
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 3: quite obsessed with social standing and that is not perverted, right, Like,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: so that is very very neurotic obsessional like to like
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: he's obsessed with the media ratings. So you know that's
• 1:01:12
  Speaker 3: kind of a mark against him actually, being a pervert,
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: but it's still fun. I think it's a fun case.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I can see that because it's got that like
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 4: the twofold attitude towards the father. Maybe Trump has this
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 4: like the naming is not complete, the legislating of the
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 4: law is not complete, and yet he's constantly staging naming
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 4: and annunciation of law. I think that sounds a bit
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 4: like what you were saying. He's constantly harping on this
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 4: or that institution being insufficient. The Democrats right now are
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 4: quite under fire.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 3: He's certainly he's certainly he's certainly acting in perverse ways.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: I would say, right, like that's I would say, like
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 3: he's he's acting in perverse ways. But it's obviously impossible
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 3: to know. Well, you know, I should have said it before.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 3: Obviously the caveat is like it's really bad form to
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 3: like try to say quitalyize someone from a distance. I'm
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 3: sure there's like a lot of potential reasons for why.
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 3: You know, he could just be a neurotic and be
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 3: like you acting this way strategically, right, that like it's
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 3: working for him, So he's going to keep saying shit
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 3: like this, right, but it's not actually representative of what
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 3: he you know, really feels or his actual kind of uh,
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 3: sort of uncontrolled urges. But I think the behavior is
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 3: perverse in this sense. I think we can at least
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 3: argue the behaviors in a Lacanian sense somewhat perverse.
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, just like the just because one of this, this
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 1: pervert had a rape fantasy. I don't know a girl
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: that doesn't have a rape fantasy. Yeah, I know, but
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 1: it doesn't be there all perverts obviously exactly.
• 1:02:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, we need to know, like there is a kind
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 4: of literal sense and now I wouldn't say literal, but
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: there needs to be some kind of attitude towards the
• 1:02:52
  Speaker 4: father being. You know, in the in the psychoanalytics session,
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 4: you have to get someone to tell a story, right,
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 4: narrativize their life, and there needs to be some kind
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 4: of father figure paternal function in there, and you have
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 4: to determine this attitude towards it and whether this constitutes
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: some kind of disavowal. So who knows what this like
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 4: eighty year old fucking man thinks about his father or
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 4: I don't. I don't know what I mean psychoanalyzing some
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 4: of that.
• 1:03:20
  Speaker 1: I think he's pretty clearly like a paranoid probablysial.
• 1:03:25
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: On the other hand, if we're if we're talking about
• 1:03:29
  Speaker 1: Trump admint perverts, I can very easily picture Steven Miller
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 1: jerking off while a bunch of Mexican migrants are performing
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: Gone with the Wind or something, while he's forcing them,
• 1:03:48
  Speaker 1: he's forcing them to He would get off on causing anxiety.
• 1:03:52
  Speaker 1: He seems to take pleasure in suffering or being feared
• 1:03:59
  Speaker 1: as being able to cause suffering, which would be a sadistic,
• 1:04:04
  Speaker 1: sadistic trait. He's just terribly like zero riz zero gravitas
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 1: in when he speaks, So I'm not too worried about him.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: But he's he's a scary dude, so I wouldn't surprise
• 1:04:15
  Speaker 1: me at all if you had.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I also I was gonna.
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: Something locked up at his basement.
• 1:04:20
  Speaker 3: I was going to bring up as well, like Whyk's
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 3: uh titles for his movies maybe makes sense. I guess
• 1:04:29
  Speaker 3: what I was thinking is, you know, isn't the process
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 3: of making a movie kind of a staging of fantasies?
• 1:04:35
  Speaker 3: Like it's sort of like you are creating like these
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: scenarios that are like so in a way, like cinema
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 3: itself is like maybe perverse and in a certain sense
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 3: of like like what it because what it's doing is
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: it's like showing, it's like creating very specific stagings of
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 3: things of like basically he argues right through his analysis
• 1:04:55
  Speaker 3: of the films like kind of ideological in his sense,
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 3: like fantasy kind of representations. Right, So maybe.
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 1: Sounds really like Laura Mulvey. But the the thing is
• 1:05:08
  Speaker 1: it's called the Perverts Guide, So it's like it's pervert
• 1:05:13
  Speaker 1: perverted to watch him break it down, right, but.
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 3: It's also perverts Guide to understanding cinema. So it's like
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: in the city. Yeah, you're right, I mean it's it's
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: like the it does kind of imply that the the
• 1:05:27
  Speaker 3: like the viewer is the pervert. I guess, not that
• 1:05:30
  Speaker 3: cinema itself is perverted, but I guess I guess it's
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 3: I was thinking about it. It's like kind of like
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: a tour where like the guide shows you how films
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: like Stage are unconscious fantasies, right, how they kind of
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: show desire like more clearly than we can see ourselves.
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: So it's like the staging part, I guess was where
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 3: I was thinking maybe, like like the it's showed, like
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: the perversion is in the showing like the kind of
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 3: obscene underside of law morality in enjoy like. So it's
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: like by analyzing film we can kind of reveal the
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: arbitrariness of like ideology maybe which is obviously with what
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 3: the pervert does, because the pervert doesn't believe in or
• 1:06:17
  Speaker 3: doesn't even understand the law like or like you know,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 3: like the kind of subversion.
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 1: Maybe it's because the pervert needs it explained, needs the
• 1:06:25
  Speaker 1: joke to be explained to them.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 1: Maybe, And we're all perverts in the sense that we're
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: not going to be looking into movies that hard.
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, maybe. Yeah.
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 1: Maybe you have to be a pervert to care about
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: movies enough to watch a breakdown of scenes by a
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 1: Slovenian man.
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 3: Obviously he's trying to be provocative to you with that name.
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: I mean, it's a funny name, Pervert's Guide.
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 1: It's better than Theotics Guide to Cinema.
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: I remember, I remember I had like way back in
• 1:06:51
  Speaker 3: like two thousand and eight. I think the psychotics guy
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 3: I had I was working at like the Source basically
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: radio Shack and for those non Canadian listeners, but it's
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 3: called the Source here or was. I guess it still exists.
• 1:07:02
  Speaker 3: And this is back when I had a bunch of
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 3: like ripped movies on a hard drive, I think, and
• 1:07:07
  Speaker 3: I like had downloaded, like pirated a bunch of stuff.
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 3: I was really into pirating movies back then. And my coworker,
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: I think, like for some reason, I like arranged to
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 3: like give him a bunch of my pirated movies, and
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 3: one of them was the Jijik's The Perverts Guide to Cinema,
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: I think. And this coworker, who's like not at all
• 1:07:24
  Speaker 3: into philosophy, but just like Sawden, was like, Oh, what's this.
• 1:07:27
  Speaker 3: This sounds like fun, And I was like, I don't
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 3: know if you're gonna like it's not pervert in the
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 3: sense that you're thinking I think.
• 1:07:35
  Speaker 4: I think, yeah, I think the Perverts Guide thing the
• 1:07:39
  Speaker 4: pervert reference is is to fantasy. I think that's the
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 4: important point because when when Fink describes the Sadist, he
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 4: says it's in his fantasies. He views the victims anxiety
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: as an absolute condition necessary if they are to provide pleasure.
• 1:08:01
  Speaker 4: But what is crucial in fantasies is no more than
• 1:08:04
  Speaker 4: a screen, right, So the fantasy is just this empty thing,
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 4: not really empty, because it's what's important for the pervert.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 4: But as we see, the neurotics moved on to the
• 1:08:18
  Speaker 4: to the symbolic, symbolic castration and speech.
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: Right, it's kind of like the neurotic can get off,
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: can get off just by watching a film on a
• 1:08:30
  Speaker 1: flat screen, but uh, the pervert has to act it
• 1:08:34
  Speaker 1: out like a like a theater, like a stage play.
• 1:08:38
  Speaker 4: Yeah, like seeing on the like and what does do
• 1:08:42
  Speaker 4: on the perverts guide, Like he's literally on the screen,
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 4: Like when when it's like The Titanic, he's like lying
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 4: in one of the bunk beds, like he's in every
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 4: scene he puts. He like walks into the films, he's
• 1:08:53
  Speaker 4: all literally.
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 1: He's in the rowboat for they.
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 4: Like the most hilarious spots. And when he's in there too,
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 4: like just explaining the film from like some random position
• 1:09:06
  Speaker 4: in a scene in the in the movie.
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 1: And of course you know there was definitely enough room
• 1:09:11
  Speaker 1: for both of them in this both but he has
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 1: to die.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 4: Yeah, with no comment on why he's positioned that way.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 4: And then the rest of the time he's just he's
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 4: just the neurotics guide to hegel. That's that's what he
• 1:09:24
  Speaker 4: is the rest of the time because he's just either
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 4: on a podcast, speaking on YouTube or talking to you
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 4: and as Vera fawks or something. Yeah.
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well guys, uh, good place to end it.
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah great, that was fun. That was our our lacon
• 1:09:40
  Speaker 3: series for now. Although I am let me say, let
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 3: me strongly be arguing, okay.
• 1:09:45
  Speaker 1: If the patrons, if the patrons want us to keep going,
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 1: I will definitely keep going. I just I'm feeling a
• 1:09:52
  Speaker 1: wane and interest, and when I'm waning an interest, then
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 1: I feel.
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 3: Like you w you will submit to the law of
• 1:10:01
  Speaker 3: the of the patreon.
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 1: I will submit to the will the expression of the other. Definitely.
• 1:10:07
  Speaker 3: Well, let me make my pitch to the patrons. I
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 3: would like to cover neuroses because it's most of us
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 3: are neurotics, and I think we should talk about it eventually,
• 1:10:15
  Speaker 3: not now, but eventually. I want to come back to
• 1:10:18
  Speaker 3: it because I think it's the most relatable and it
• 1:10:21
  Speaker 3: might hit closest to homes, which will be fun.
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 4: I think, so we can hysterical neuroses exactly.
• 1:10:28
  Speaker 1: Maybe I'm cutting it off here because I just don't
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: want to want to explore that I can't look in
• 1:10:32
  Speaker 1: the mirror. I can't stare.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, it's already hitting too close to home. Yeah that
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 4: break too, So.
• 1:10:40
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I'm down. Well, maybe we'll do something fun. I've
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 3: also been reading a lot of Lebanos lately for a
• 1:10:44
  Speaker 3: paper I'm working on. I don't know if you guys
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 3: have ever done that, but we could maybe do that.
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 5: He's kind of boring, but Christian Heidger I prefer Nazis
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 5: Jewish hidiger over this shit the face almost.
• 1:10:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Hi about other people matter.
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 4: Now, yeah, exactly. Ethics is first philosophy, not ontology.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 1:11:07
  Speaker 1: All right, Well cut her there. Thanks guys, looking forward
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 1: to hear the the remarks here. But that's uh, what
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: is that number number six of the condom?
• 1:11:19
  Speaker 3: Please write to us, Please write to us if you
• 1:11:21
  Speaker 3: feel like it and telling us. If you're a pervert,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 3: tell us about it.
• 1:11:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we gave you the Neurotics Guide to the Pervert,
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 1: and we're looking for the perverts Guide to the Neurotics
• 1:11:33
  Speaker 1: Guide to the Pervert.
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 3: What's that word? I forget bonified?
• 1:11:40
  Speaker 4: Bonified?
• 1:11:42
  Speaker 3: Well maybe not maybe not a pervert? Maybe not.
• 1:11:46
  Speaker 4: Some of these words here, pedophilia, frauterism, to surism, transvestic fetishism.
• 1:11:53
  Speaker 1: Okay, I like that. I like scopophilic. Scopophilic. We It's
• 1:11:56
  Speaker 1: basically a peeping tom, but apparently there's a feed where
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 1: you can't. It's not just peeping time, Like you want
• 1:12:03
  Speaker 1: to see your neighbor naked, so you climb up a tree.
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 1: It's like, you can only get off if they don't
• 1:12:09
  Speaker 1: know that you're watching.
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 3: Oh, that's fine. I wonder what about the opposite where
• 1:12:12
  Speaker 3: you can only get off if you, if you, if you,
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: if you like, know that they see you seeing.
• 1:12:16
  Speaker 1: Them like cuckoldry. Yeah, anyway, we're done.
• 1:12:20
  Speaker 3: And you're detecting the thingst but we're done here, folks.
• 1:12:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you have to know that they're anxious. That's that's
• 1:12:24
  Speaker 1: a kind of weird. That seems sadistic, literally a little
• 1:12:29
  Speaker 1: bit right right, take care, all right,