Latest / Recovery Chronicles / Recovery Chronicles Ep. 167 - Darren

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Recovery Chronicles Ep. 167 - Darren · Recovery Chronicles

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to the Recovery Chronicles, where we dive deep into
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: the inspiring journeys of individuals who have triumphed over adversity
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: and found healing and resilience on the path to recovery
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: from drugs and alcohol. We'll sit down with people who
• 0:15
  Speaker 1: have embrace changed and emerge stronger than ever. Get ready
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: to be uplifted, motivated, and empowered as we embark on
• 0:22
  Speaker 1: a journey of healing, growth, and possibility. Welcome back to
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: the Recovery Chronicles. Today, we have Darren here to share
• 0:31
  Speaker 1: his story with us, so thank you for joining us today.
• 0:33
  Speaker 2: You're welcome.
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: So starting out, what is your drug of choice and
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: how long have you been sober?
• 0:39
  Speaker 2: Method heroin like one without the other? In two years?
• 0:44
  Speaker 1: Nice? That's awesome. So to start us out, take us
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: back to when you're using started. What did that look like.
• 0:54
  Speaker 3: For me?
• 0:55
  Speaker 4: I guess using started at eleven, but I started using
• 0:59
  Speaker 4: substance as much earlier.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Earlier.
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  Speaker 4: I remember as early as third grade, like sneaking alcohol
• 1:07
  Speaker 4: before school out of my mom's little liquor cabinet. Sure,
• 1:12
  Speaker 4: I always identified in movies with like the junkie that
• 1:16
  Speaker 4: added the criminal, the person that was depressed. My mother
• 1:22
  Speaker 4: could tell you stories about me talking about killing myself
• 1:24
  Speaker 4: as early as like two years old, so I've always
• 1:28
  Speaker 4: kind of just identified with that.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: Why do you think that?
• 1:31
  Speaker 2: Is not really sure?
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: Okay, really sure.
• 1:35
  Speaker 4: I think as I've gotten older and dug into it,
• 1:38
  Speaker 4: I think there was some sexual abuse or some sort
• 1:41
  Speaker 4: of trauma.
• 1:42
  Speaker 2: Sure, but that young, I don't I don't really know.
• 1:45
  Speaker 4: I actually wrote a college paper of a memory that
• 1:48
  Speaker 4: I had, and my mother later told me I was
• 1:50
  Speaker 4: like eighteen months old, so there's really no way I
• 1:53
  Speaker 4: should have remembered it, but my interpretation of it was
• 1:57
  Speaker 4: pretty vivid. More, I think the first time I actually
• 2:01
  Speaker 4: got drunk was about eleven. Within a couple of weeks
• 2:07
  Speaker 4: of that, I smoked pot for the first time. I
• 2:10
  Speaker 4: smoked pot for about six months, and then I.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: Picked up man at what age?
• 2:20
  Speaker 4: Okay, so my timeline's a little I was probably about
• 2:23
  Speaker 4: fifteen when I picked.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: Him at fourteen, okay, which is still really young young.
• 2:28
  Speaker 1: What when if you think about at eleven, with the
• 2:30
  Speaker 1: drinking and the marijuana use, what was the appeal for you?
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: Like, I was like.
• 2:39
  Speaker 4: Being alone in a room full of people, right, So
• 2:42
  Speaker 4: I got to be in my own little world, and
• 2:45
  Speaker 4: that that's a characteristics I carried through my whole using.
• 2:49
  Speaker 4: I remember, like even in middle school, taking many things right,
• 2:52
  Speaker 4: and my favorite thing to do was pop a whole
• 2:54
  Speaker 4: bunch of many things, go home and sleep.
• 2:57
  Speaker 2: Even though I wouldn't go to sleep.
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: I called it little third world country, so that it
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: took me to my own little place. Sure, but it
• 3:04
  Speaker 4: didn't matter as long as I had substances. I can
• 3:08
  Speaker 4: isolate even when I'm with people.
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 4: It's kind of like smoking does that too, Right, If
• 3:13
  Speaker 4: you're in a social social setting and you smoke, you
• 3:18
  Speaker 4: kind of isolate, you separate yourself from everybody.
• 3:20
  Speaker 1: Else, right, Sure you can leave the room, right, Okay.
• 3:24
  Speaker 4: Also why I don't smoke cigarettes anymore, because that's why
• 3:26
  Speaker 4: I always find like minded people.
• 3:29
  Speaker 1: Right, Usually that makes sense.
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: I'll always positive people. Mm.
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: So you start using meth around the age of fifteen?
• 3:35
  Speaker 1: How did you get into that?
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  Speaker 4: Everything was always like from a like I said, I
• 3:41
  Speaker 4: identified with the drug dealer, with the junkie. So for me,
• 3:45
  Speaker 4: I tried one line and immediately I.
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Was like, well, I'm gonna sell this.
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  Speaker 4: So it's how I bought a couple eight balls through
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  Speaker 4: a woman, right, I always need a woman to get.
• 3:54
  Speaker 2: Me to where I need to go. Sure, and then
• 3:56
  Speaker 2: I just started telling So it was like that.
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  Speaker 4: False pride, you know, that ego that sure something really special.
• 4:07
  Speaker 4: But I always the thing that I was in the movies, right,
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  Speaker 4: people are always like I figured the trick to not
• 4:13
  Speaker 4: be in an.
• 4:14
  Speaker 2: Adult fiend was to always have as much as you want.
• 4:16
  Speaker 4: Right, If you're never in want, then you're not going
• 4:19
  Speaker 4: to trade your stuff for it, You're not going to
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  Speaker 4: sacrifice your character for it. So that's what I did.
• 4:23
  Speaker 4: I was made sure that I had plenty of the
• 4:25
  Speaker 4: support in my habit and in order to pay for that.
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  Speaker 2: Right when know it comes along with that, So all
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  Speaker 2: right for sure?
• 4:34
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I think I got locked up the first
• 4:36
  Speaker 4: time at thirteen, I went to a group. Ho that
• 4:38
  Speaker 4: was my I guess that was my first treatment was
• 4:40
  Speaker 4: Harview Old Building at thirteen. Even at that point, they
• 4:46
  Speaker 4: told me that I didn't qualify to be with the juveniles,
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  Speaker 4: so they stuck.
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  Speaker 2: Me in with a bunch of adults.
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  Speaker 1: Why would you not qualify to be with the juveniles?
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  Speaker 2: I don't know.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, I think.
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  Speaker 2: I've been to.
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  Speaker 4: Two out of my whole all my sixty plus treatments. Right,
• 5:02
  Speaker 4: I think I've been to two times.
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  Speaker 2: Was I ever with juveniles? They just always stuck them
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: with the adults? Excuse me. But the one thing I
• 5:11
  Speaker 2: learned there is how to tell.
• 5:13
  Speaker 4: The truth, right, excuse me, because them adults, those adults
• 5:20
  Speaker 4: like humiliated me, like with my inconsistencies and my stories,
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  Speaker 4: and like, I didn't like how that felt. So I
• 5:26
  Speaker 4: made the made the decision right there that anything I did, like,
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  Speaker 4: I'd much rather stand on the truth of whatever I did,
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  Speaker 4: versus have to answer to me lying about something.
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  Speaker 2: That I did.
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  Speaker 1: Okay, oh my god, yeah, excuse me.
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  Speaker 4: Also at that time, there was a couple of staff
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  Speaker 4: members that we're working in the group home that I
• 5:49
  Speaker 4: was in. Okay, So we'd go to AA meetings and
• 5:52
  Speaker 4: I came back and he'd say, were you smoking over there?
• 5:55
  Speaker 4: And I said yep. He said, well, your honesty is
• 5:58
  Speaker 4: what saved you. So I wouldn't get in trouble for
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: I made it through my levels. Not that they allowed it,
• 6:03
  Speaker 4: but they taught me that the truth was more powerful
• 6:05
  Speaker 4: than lyne Fast forward, in that same staff member later
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: became a pl then became a Task Force agent and
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: as since retired. But we kind of came up together,
• 6:17
  Speaker 4: and ironically enough, he's like one of my mentors now right,
• 6:20
  Speaker 4: But I didn't realize that my using. But anyway, so
• 6:24
  Speaker 4: I learned the truth at that point.
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  Speaker 2: I think I got locked up again at sixteen.
• 6:30
  Speaker 4: And then they locked me up until my eighteenth birthday,
• 6:33
  Speaker 4: but all drug related probation related.
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: I dropped out of school at sixteen to work at Burger.
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  Speaker 1: Time and sell drugs pretty great treats.
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  Speaker 2: Well, I clearly wasn't stupid.
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  Speaker 4: So one of the at PLC at sixteen, I took
• 6:50
  Speaker 4: my pretest for my GEDs up, so I got my
• 6:52
  Speaker 4: GED at sixteen. I was taking some college forses, but
• 6:55
  Speaker 4: I just never one thing I ever wanted to be
• 6:59
  Speaker 4: with the drug dealer.
• 7:01
  Speaker 1: I I don't know, it was pretty Do you feel
• 7:05
  Speaker 1: like as a child, when you were watching those movies
• 7:07
  Speaker 1: and you saw you know, you say you relate with
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  Speaker 1: the drug dealer or the drunkie or those things, did
• 7:14
  Speaker 1: you perceive it as like that guy's really cool or
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: that guy or they have the power, or I don't know,
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: or you were just like I'm just like them.
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  Speaker 4: I just I just like I just always just identified
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  Speaker 4: with it, you know, I had a period of time,
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  Speaker 4: I used to think that opiates kept me clean, right, so,
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  Speaker 4: and I used to also consider it like if I
• 7:35
  Speaker 4: didn't if I used less than I wasn't.
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  Speaker 2: Even a relapse, you know what.
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  Speaker 4: Okay, I would argue that in treatment, like I didn't
• 7:41
  Speaker 4: do an avil, it wasn't a relapse.
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  Speaker 2: Or I've been clean for three years.
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  Speaker 4: I've only been taking hydropoton and opiates and whatever else.
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  Speaker 4: I really didn't consider that using. But I had a
• 7:51
  Speaker 4: period of time where I went three years without Math. Okay,
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  Speaker 4: but I was still taken heavily into opiates and fentall
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  Speaker 4: or whatever my patches back then. But the first when
• 8:02
  Speaker 4: I did relapse, the first morning I woke up after
• 8:04
  Speaker 4: that relapse after not being on MATH for three years,
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  Speaker 4: I just felt like garbage, Like just felt like garbage.
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  Speaker 4: And I realized, like, this is what I love about it.
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  Speaker 4: I love feeling like crap, you know what I mean?
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  Speaker 4: Like I like that junked out feeling. I like feeling
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  Speaker 4: I just I just like feeling like that.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, do you think that comes from That's just what
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  Speaker 1: you think you deserve is feeling like crap.
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  Speaker 2: One hundred percent.
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  Speaker 4: So my anger until about my mid twenties, Like wasn't good, okay,
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  Speaker 4: but I recognized, like somebody's gonna get hurt or killed,
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  Speaker 4: and that scared band people did get hurt. Right, So
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  Speaker 4: all that anger that I was pushing outwards, I turned inwards.
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  Speaker 4: And that's when I started cutting out myself, getting more tattoos.
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  Speaker 2: Because it was too dangerous to let the anger out.
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  Speaker 1: So I just imploded this week, right, just self destructive.
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  Speaker 1: So oh, you're locked up until eighteen, and then what
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  Speaker 1: happens when you're eighteen? Where's where is it?
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  Speaker 4: I'm picking up on my eighteenth birthday and I don't
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  Speaker 4: even think I went home the first night.
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  Speaker 2: Sure, I just hit the ground running. Was to stay
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: up for a whole year one time?
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  Speaker 1: Did you accomplish that? Yeah? I was gonna say that
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: sounds extreme, but you know I was.
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  Speaker 4: Thinking about my drive before ago the other day, like
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  Speaker 4: I do remember five six year blocks of time where
• 9:32
  Speaker 4: like I didn't miss.
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  Speaker 2: A day to use them. I mean I do, have.
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  Speaker 4: You No, I have friends that were going in and
• 9:38
  Speaker 4: out of prison, and then they sit in prison and
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  Speaker 4: talk about staying away from me when they got off.
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  Speaker 2: First of all, I'm never gonna get you high coming
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  Speaker 2: out of prison. But second of all, like that's just
• 9:49
  Speaker 2: I'm not the bad but they you know, But I
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  Speaker 2: was just really good at long long term using.
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  Speaker 4: I learned like, in order to use longer periods of times,
• 10:02
  Speaker 4: sometimes you have to sacrifice short periods of sobriety.
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  Speaker 2: Right, So I was always like long view when it
• 10:06
  Speaker 2: came to that. So I knew that.
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  Speaker 4: Sometimes I had to clean up for a period of time.
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  Speaker 4: But that's not to say that every treatment center ever
• 10:12
  Speaker 4: went in, I went in wholeheartedly into change.
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  Speaker 2: It just never happened, right, But so I was able
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: to clean up for like short periods of time.
• 10:21
  Speaker 4: The older I got. I remember, like thirty five, I
• 10:26
  Speaker 4: had to see my PO in three days, and I
• 10:28
  Speaker 4: couldn't stay clean three days to get to it, you
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: know what I mean, Like it's simple stay clean three
• 10:33
  Speaker 4: days pastor contest to move on, And I couldn't do
• 10:35
  Speaker 4: it all the way to see my PEO if I
• 10:37
  Speaker 4: went and used, And I'm like this is just ridiculous.
• 10:40
  Speaker 4: I don't mean over over a fix, I'm risking my
• 10:43
  Speaker 4: freedom and everything else.
• 10:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, is that a moment where you were like, Okay,
• 10:51
  Speaker 1: this is a problem or did you ever have that
• 10:54
  Speaker 1: those epiphanies.
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: Like I knew it was gonna be a problems the
• 10:58
  Speaker 2: day I picked up. Right, Sure, that's never intended it
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: not to.
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  Speaker 4: Like I build my entire identity of life around being
• 11:07
  Speaker 4: a functioning.
• 11:08
  Speaker 2: Drug addict, right, so I never it was never an option.
• 11:14
  Speaker 4: It's like two sides of actually, because there was one
• 11:16
  Speaker 4: piece of me that like always want to.
• 11:18
  Speaker 2: Be the guy that would get high and talk about
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: getting sober me.
• 11:23
  Speaker 4: But at the same time, like I programmed myself to
• 11:27
  Speaker 4: use almost that makes sense.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: How does one program themselves to use well?
• 11:33
  Speaker 4: By number one, staying clean for three days ago, pass
• 11:36
  Speaker 4: a piss test for your po right, don't you There's
• 11:39
  Speaker 4: certain things you have to do, right you.
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: You show up to your appointments.
• 11:42
  Speaker 4: You you you know what I mean. You go to
• 11:44
  Speaker 4: your treatment, You do your stuff that you're supposed to do.
• 11:48
  Speaker 4: People that don't do that don't last very long. Right.
• 11:51
  Speaker 2: If I would have never.
• 11:54
  Speaker 4: Okay, so we've already talked about to support the habit,
• 11:58
  Speaker 4: we made some legal sacrifices right outside of that, Like
• 12:02
  Speaker 4: I don't really break the law, Like if it wouldn't
• 12:04
  Speaker 4: if I would have never picked up a substance, I
• 12:06
  Speaker 4: wouldn't have broke the law. I don't like don't go
• 12:09
  Speaker 4: stealing stuff, and I don't like commit these crimes. Like
• 12:12
  Speaker 4: the only legal history I have is directly related to
• 12:15
  Speaker 4: either you know, intent to distribute or possession. So I
• 12:21
  Speaker 4: didn't do that kind of stuff that other people were doing.
• 12:23
  Speaker 4: It was a Robin houses and Robin stores and doing
• 12:25
  Speaker 4: all this stuff to support my habit or whatever the
• 12:27
  Speaker 4: reason is. I just didn't do that. So my theory
• 12:32
  Speaker 4: is nothing good happens after nine at night. I learned
• 12:34
  Speaker 4: that drug court, right, so I'm not gonna run around
• 12:36
  Speaker 4: them for nine at night because I know the risk
• 12:38
  Speaker 4: of me getting hemmed.
• 12:39
  Speaker 2: Up is a lot greater.
• 12:41
  Speaker 4: Sure, So whatever I'm gonna do, i'm gonna do between
• 12:43
  Speaker 4: eight am and five pm or what you know, in
• 12:46
  Speaker 4: the evening.
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: I just don't do that, you know.
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: So it's almost like you put in a ton of
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: effort to use oh yes, okay, like passing in U
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: ways with your probation office, or not being out after nine,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: not stealing, not fighting, all those things in order to
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: build this solid foundation to get high. Right basically, Okay,
• 13:10
  Speaker 1: it means something I've never heard before. Yeah, but interesting.
• 13:13
  Speaker 4: I made connections with people that early in my using
• 13:18
  Speaker 4: career that later in life, like I couldn't shape it,
• 13:21
  Speaker 4: like everywhere I turned.
• 13:24
  Speaker 2: Like and I think a lot of.
• 13:25
  Speaker 4: People deal with that where you you so in so
• 13:30
  Speaker 4: deep that there's no like you don't have drugs just falling.
• 13:34
  Speaker 2: Right, like you can't can't get out of that.
• 13:36
  Speaker 4: I know that's a real thing on anybody who has
• 13:39
  Speaker 4: lived that similar life, it gets to be it's tough
• 13:43
  Speaker 4: for me.
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: Do you think our small community contributes to that or
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: do you think that would even be if you were
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: in a bigger city.
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: No, I think this community in particular, like I've been
• 13:52
  Speaker 4: in a couple different communities in their lifestyle and our
• 13:56
  Speaker 4: community in particular, it's m operates much different than bigger
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: cities or even fargle it it's much different.
• 14:03
  Speaker 1: Here explain if you can, I mean there are I
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: don't know if.
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, it just operates different.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: Okay, different culture, lifestyle, mentality, maybe all that. Okay, So
• 14:27
  Speaker 1: basically you hit the ground running at eleven years old,
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: and we're incarcerated until you're eighteen. Mom picks you up,
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: you get out where And you said all of your
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: legal charges were based off of substance use. Did you
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: ever get incarcerated again. You were obviously on probation dozens
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: and a half dozen times at least, Like how many
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: years in total do you think you were on pro
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: you've been on or we're on probation.
• 14:58
  Speaker 4: Well, so if I'm forty two, was that having twenty
• 15:01
  Speaker 4: four years I could have possibly been well, I mean
• 15:03
  Speaker 4: I was on.
• 15:04
  Speaker 2: Provision at juken Onto.
• 15:05
  Speaker 4: I don't know, probably I was probably off like seven
• 15:09
  Speaker 4: eight years.
• 15:10
  Speaker 2: I mean about seventy eight years that I've.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Been off, Okay, And you your mindset or were you
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: just willing to kind of accept like if I'm gonna
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: be using, I'm gonna be on probation and again, I'm
• 15:22
  Speaker 1: just gonna set up a foundation to appease my probation
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: officer and keep using.
• 15:27
  Speaker 4: Like I didn't never consciously think that, right, Like cause
• 15:32
  Speaker 4: I really tried. One of the struggles I have, Like
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: so outside of this time clean, I've never had more
• 15:37
  Speaker 4: than six weeks clean, right, So, like I would believe
• 15:43
  Speaker 4: everything that I'm saying, and I would never realize like
• 15:46
  Speaker 4: what it was like my other hand would sneak over
• 15:48
  Speaker 4: and get me high, and.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't realize that I relapsed.
• 15:51
  Speaker 4: Until that rush hit my body and then I was
• 15:54
  Speaker 4: like if like again, but then it was too late.
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: The other thing I always tried was like I always
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: thought I could use and keep everything I had in
• 16:08
  Speaker 4: sobriety right, But it's just two different worlds. I felt
• 16:12
  Speaker 4: like there's a veil in between using and not using
• 16:14
  Speaker 4: that you go back and forth through. And I think, personally,
• 16:17
  Speaker 4: I think everybody's got a certain number of times that
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: can travel back and forth, and I think everybody's number
• 16:22
  Speaker 4: is different. But there's a spiritual change that happens. I
• 16:27
  Speaker 4: remember I left treatment in Fargo one time, stop in
• 16:31
  Speaker 4: Jamestown and use, and by the time I got back
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: to Bismarck, I was not the same person, and it
• 16:34
  Speaker 4: was very evident. And then when I was trying to
• 16:40
  Speaker 4: get clean back and forth, I went through a short
• 16:42
  Speaker 4: period of like three months where I went back and forth,
• 16:45
  Speaker 4: clean for a few days, using clean for a few days,
• 16:49
  Speaker 4: and that was absolutely hell.
• 16:52
  Speaker 2: That was really.
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: Bad because anytime I would go more than twenty four
• 16:57
  Speaker 4: hours without using, then I would get all the negative
• 17:00
  Speaker 4: side effects of using, right, like the guilt, the shame,
• 17:03
  Speaker 4: the the paranoida, all that stuff, And it's just hard
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: on my body, it's hard on the spirit.
• 17:10
  Speaker 2: Back and forth.
• 17:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely so. It's almost like the three days of
• 17:14
  Speaker 1: sobriety was more detrimental to you than just continuing to use,
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: because that shame, guilt, and withdrawal hits in to where
• 17:23
  Speaker 1: you just feel lifeless, more lifeless than when you're using.
• 17:28
  Speaker 4: And anybody that's ever hung around me knows, like if
• 17:30
  Speaker 4: Darren's been clean, goes the treatment, it comes out and uses,
• 17:33
  Speaker 4: he needs a babysitter for a week.
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: Like I can't leave. I cannot function.
• 17:36
  Speaker 4: If I were to use that, I would have relapsed
• 17:39
  Speaker 4: at four this morning tomorrow morning, mm hmm. I promise
• 17:42
  Speaker 4: you that everybody that's connected to me would by seven
• 17:46
  Speaker 4: am when they woke up, they would know, like it
• 17:48
  Speaker 4: would be that big of a shift, because I wouldn't
• 17:50
  Speaker 4: like they would just know m because I'm that much different.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: I absolutely would not be able to parent, at least
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: not for the first week, like.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: The first first run. Now once I go to sleep
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: and pick up again.
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: But why is that?
• 18:06
  Speaker 3: I don't know.
• 18:07
  Speaker 2: I think it's that spiritual transition.
• 18:10
  Speaker 1: Sure, I mean for me, it is okay, what kind
• 18:14
  Speaker 1: of a person were you under the influence.
• 18:19
  Speaker 2: I thought a pretty good guy.
• 18:20
  Speaker 1: Well, right, so how were you a pretty good guy?
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: No?
• 18:28
  Speaker 4: I feel like my moral compass is the same now
• 18:31
  Speaker 4: is when I'm using, right, So if it's wrong today, it.
• 18:34
  Speaker 2: Was wrong when I was using.
• 18:35
  Speaker 4: However, that being said, if we go out, if Norman
• 18:40
  Speaker 4: goes out and has a couple of drinks, right, your
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: judgment goes out the window a little bit. You might
• 18:43
  Speaker 4: get a little looser sexually or or whatever. Like certain
• 18:46
  Speaker 4: things come into play like they weren't an option before
• 18:50
  Speaker 4: they might be. So my moral compass, yes, it shifted slightly,
• 18:55
  Speaker 4: but like the core.
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: Of who I am didn't change.
• 18:59
  Speaker 4: Right, I'm pretty much the same person, like I've been
• 19:02
  Speaker 4: saying the same thing, using or clean. But yeah, I
• 19:05
  Speaker 4: definitely engaged in lots of things through today, lots of
• 19:10
  Speaker 4: immoral behavior.
• 19:11
  Speaker 1: Mm hmmmm hmm. But you said like the core of
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: you doesn't change. But yet you also talk about this
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: like spiritual shift, which, to me and my perception, the
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: core of us is a spiritual entity. Right, so explain that.
• 19:28
  Speaker 4: I don't know if I can. You're absolutely okay, both
• 19:32
  Speaker 4: of them are true.
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: Nothing with substance use makes sense, does it.
• 19:37
  Speaker 2: Truly, You're absolutely right and I did say that.
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Like the way I envision it in my mind
• 19:47
  Speaker 1: is almost like this angel and devil type situation where
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: being sober, this spiritual is like this beautiful, white, wholesome,
• 19:58
  Speaker 1: morally just angel, right, and then the using as this
• 20:03
  Speaker 1: dark cloud, evil, lying, not moral. But you kind of
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: suggest that you were still morally intact. Okay, you just
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: weren't leaving true to them.
• 20:21
  Speaker 4: You still get compromised. But what I'm saying is, I
• 20:24
  Speaker 4: guess what I was saying in that is just because
• 20:30
  Speaker 4: of high doesn't mean that something. Now I'm gonna go
• 20:32
  Speaker 4: do something right, Like oh, I use so now it's
• 20:34
  Speaker 4: okay to rob my mother. It was wrong regardless, Sure
• 20:38
  Speaker 4: you know what I mean.
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: So you knew it was wrong, but you were still
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: doing it. Not robbing your mom per se, but doing
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: things that you wouldn't you don't believe to be correct.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: And there's certain con with and use it right right,
• 20:53
  Speaker 2: things that just come with the territory, you.
• 20:55
  Speaker 3: Know what I mean.
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: You talked a little bit about parenting and you know,
• 21:01
  Speaker 1: being or taking care of your children, being a parent, right,
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: do you feel like you were doing that to the
• 21:09
  Speaker 1: best of your ability when you were using or what
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: did that look like?
• 21:12
  Speaker 4: I feel like with my eight year old daughter, She's
• 21:14
  Speaker 4: been with me since the days you were born.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: There was a short.
• 21:17
  Speaker 4: Period of time that she was not because I got
• 21:21
  Speaker 4: pulled over and had drugs in my pocket, so I
• 21:24
  Speaker 4: couldn't see her for a period of time.
• 21:28
  Speaker 2: But she is.
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: One hundred percent. She's one of the pillars of why
• 21:33
  Speaker 4: I got cleaned because I recognized was I doing sufficient?
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah? Is it okay to be doing the things I
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: was doing?
• 21:40
  Speaker 4: No?
• 21:41
  Speaker 2: You know what I mean?
• 21:41
  Speaker 4: Like, I recognize my negative characteristics coming on her in
• 21:46
  Speaker 4: and out.
• 21:46
  Speaker 2: Of the house. People that don't come around anymore.
• 21:50
  Speaker 4: Right, She just said the other day, Dad hasn't had
• 21:52
  Speaker 4: a girl over in a long time, right, Because I'm
• 21:55
  Speaker 4: not willing to do that anymore.
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: So that's where the moral compass different. Right, I was
• 21:59
  Speaker 2: willing to do that before. I'm just not, you know
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: what I mean, It's not something I'm gonna do.
• 22:04
  Speaker 4: I put her needs before mine now, which it wasn't
• 22:09
  Speaker 4: like that before. I wasn't leaving my room until I
• 22:13
  Speaker 4: used and sometimes I wouldn't be able to use or
• 22:16
  Speaker 4: find a vein for many hours. Right, life didn't start
• 22:21
  Speaker 4: until I got my fixed and I wasn't sick, So yeah,
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: I definitely affected my parenting. The thing about my daughter
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: that's different is the other kids went with my mom
• 22:33
  Speaker 4: or their moms or somewhere else.
• 22:35
  Speaker 2: Even in my.
• 22:36
  Speaker 4: Using, I was the best option for my daughter out
• 22:40
  Speaker 4: of all the options I had to excuse me. I
• 22:45
  Speaker 4: had to man up, right. That's part of what got
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: me clean.
• 22:50
  Speaker 2: This is the fact that.
• 22:53
  Speaker 4: I knew it would break my daughter if I go
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: to prison for the rest of my life, which is
• 22:57
  Speaker 4: where I'm going, if I keep doing the things I'm doing.
• 23:00
  Speaker 4: The last time I told her I was going to treatment, well,
• 23:03
  Speaker 4: last time I went to jail. I called my mom
• 23:05
  Speaker 4: from a squad car to go get my daughter.
• 23:07
  Speaker 2: She's at home. She wasn't home alone, But you know
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: what I mean, I'm going to jail.
• 23:11
  Speaker 4: When I tell her I'm going to treatment, she's like heartbroken,
• 23:14
  Speaker 4: right like I couldn't there's no way I could watch
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: it again, or no, like there's no way I've been
• 23:20
  Speaker 4: able to live with myself, no one like I just
• 23:22
  Speaker 4: caught a fed case and.
• 23:23
  Speaker 2: I'm never coming home. I couldn't do that anymore. I
• 23:25
  Speaker 2: couldn't do that to her.
• 23:28
  Speaker 4: I was out of veins and a lot of options,
• 23:31
  Speaker 4: and the legal the real reality of the legal consequences
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: was more than I'm willing to pathe It's more than
• 23:37
  Speaker 4: I could pay.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: So it was time to like really do something different.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: Sure, So were you pretty honest with your daughter about
• 23:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, if you're telling her you're going to treatment,
• 23:49
  Speaker 1: she must have some idea of what that means if
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: you're saying it right. So was she pretty aware of
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: what was happening with you or no?
• 23:57
  Speaker 4: We learned about what drugs were after I came home. However,
• 24:03
  Speaker 4: she doesn't recognize what those variables are. But absolutely right,
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: like she would, she took care of me right, She
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: picked up my clothes, She made sure I was getting
• 24:12
  Speaker 4: enough sleep, Like she kept being bounced, one hundred percent,
• 24:15
  Speaker 4: she kept being bounced.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: So although she didn't know what I was doing, she
• 24:19
  Speaker 2: knows that we have a different life today.
• 24:21
  Speaker 4: I mean, she knows we don't we don't worry about
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: the same things we used to, you know, like she
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: knows she can actually be a child now, a kid.
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: I remember that a period of time when.
• 24:35
  Speaker 4: You know a period of time when I when she
• 24:38
  Speaker 4: was with Bob and I couldn't when she wasn't with me.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: I'd go over to mom's house and lay on the
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: college and go to sleep for six hours. And she
• 24:47
  Speaker 4: would just sit on the coach and wouldn't leave my
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: side for the whole day. She would just make sure
• 24:51
  Speaker 4: I'm okay and breathing and pet me and kissing.
• 24:53
  Speaker 2: Him, you know what I mean. Like, she was definitely
• 24:55
  Speaker 2: taking care of her dad.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: So were you exposed a substance use as a child.
• 25:03
  Speaker 4: No, Uh, my dad has all the characteristics of an act.
• 25:07
  Speaker 4: But he's an alcoholic, right, but you have all the characteristics.
• 25:10
  Speaker 2: Of an act of an addict.
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: Okay, so he was unreliable temper, Like I don't think
• 25:15
  Speaker 4: that he was actually using, but he had.
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: All the almost like a dry drunk. Okay. Do you
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: fear for your children then? You know? Like cause your
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: eight year old has been in involved in this her
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: whole entire life up to this point, right or since
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: she was six? I suppose, cause you've been sober for
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: two years. But do you fear for that? Or how
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: How is a parent do you prevent the cycle?
• 25:42
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think that you can't prevent anything.
• 25:44
  Speaker 4: All I think personally, how I live today is more
• 25:50
  Speaker 4: powerful than anything I could say, so, I have seven children, right,
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: my oldest.
• 25:55
  Speaker 2: Daughter has been an act of addiction.
• 26:01
  Speaker 4: I hope this doesn't happen, but I would venture to
• 26:03
  Speaker 4: say that my twelve.
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: And thirteen year old may be going down the similar road.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: Is me, M, how do you know them?
• 26:10
  Speaker 2: Because they're mini means okay like theirs?
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: Okay, they're yeah, they're okay.
• 26:17
  Speaker 2: Doing much better. M.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: They're separated, but sure they're definitely many means okay.
• 26:22
  Speaker 2: Same struggle, same same anger thing. M. Yeah, angry little boys. Sure,
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: but they're not they're young men now.
• 26:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:33
  Speaker 2: But really, I just like.
• 26:37
  Speaker 4: Just how I live today, right, So my older children
• 26:39
  Speaker 4: have been waiting for me to come out of treatment,
• 26:41
  Speaker 4: prison or get clean. Like their whole lives never happen,
• 26:46
  Speaker 4: you know, it just never happens. I just think the
• 26:49
  Speaker 4: way you live today is the testimony.
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: Yeah, absolutely, even.
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: I mean, cause you can't change the kids it. People
• 26:55
  Speaker 2: are gonna do what they're gonna do. But at least
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: they know what to go back to and what the
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: answer is. They know what the solution looks like.
• 27:03
  Speaker 1: Something I even just actually said today is sometimes the
• 27:07
  Speaker 1: best lesson our parents give us is not how to
• 27:10
  Speaker 1: be right or what not to do, And I mean,
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: that's still a good lesson, right, So tell me about
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: the last time you went into treatment and how you
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: got sober.
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: So the last time I wanted to true, so I
• 27:30
  Speaker 2: went to. Last time I was in jail was like May,
• 27:34
  Speaker 2: a little over two years AGLD.
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: I went in on a Friday night for what.
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: For possession of possession of a needle.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: Okay, paraphernalia.
• 27:45
  Speaker 2: I didn't even know what was in the car okay,
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: so they brought the dogs and dogs they didn't find
• 27:48
  Speaker 2: my stuff.
• 27:49
  Speaker 4: It was still there, so I didn't know that was there.
• 27:52
  Speaker 4: It wasn't mine, but I went to jail for it.
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: They took me on a Friday night. They put me
• 27:57
  Speaker 4: in booking. I was like one of those people that
• 27:59
  Speaker 4: I'd always heard whipping, but I was like one of
• 28:01
  Speaker 4: them under the camera, buck naked, flopping like a fish,
• 28:06
  Speaker 4: and I had no shame, like I couldn't. I just
• 28:08
  Speaker 4: kept praying for twenty seconds for my body to hold still,
• 28:12
  Speaker 4: like I mean, I mean, it made it till like
• 28:13
  Speaker 4: Saturday afternoon.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: Right, but so flopping like a fish, meaning like you
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: were so okay, okay, got it?
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: So I just kept praying for like twenty seconds just
• 28:24
  Speaker 2: to hold still.
• 28:24
  Speaker 4: But every time I got that twenty seconds, I kept
• 28:26
  Speaker 4: thinking about what was waiting for me at home. And
• 28:30
  Speaker 4: I was convinced that the reason they pulled me in
• 28:32
  Speaker 4: on a Friday was because they were gonna raid me
• 28:34
  Speaker 4: on a Saturday and I was never come home come
• 28:36
  Speaker 4: Monday morning. They were gonna FEDS, We're gonna come pick
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: me up, and I wasn't coming home. So thank God
• 28:43
  Speaker 4: that I was dealing with withdrawals, cause like I said,
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: every time I got a little relief, I was focused
• 28:47
  Speaker 4: on that. That would have been a longer week in
• 28:49
  Speaker 4: focusing on that. At least I had a physical ailment
• 28:51
  Speaker 4: to deal with. Sure I got out Monday, Well, I
• 28:54
  Speaker 4: actually really had just had to sit down and think,
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: Like my pattern is I go to jail, I sleep
• 29:00
  Speaker 4: my time away, and then I get out. But we're
• 29:02
  Speaker 4: just trying to get out, and then when I get out,
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: I run and gun until I go back to jail.
• 29:05
  Speaker 4: So like I've never been present and I'm sitting here
• 29:08
  Speaker 4: forty years old. I don't like jail, but yeah, I'd
• 29:11
  Speaker 4: still keep ending up back in the same place. About
• 29:13
  Speaker 4: what don't you get during what don't you get so
• 29:18
  Speaker 4: I knew I was gonna plead out to that case
• 29:20
  Speaker 4: as quickly as possible to get on probation. I set
• 29:23
  Speaker 4: up treatment right then. But like as bad as I
• 29:26
  Speaker 4: wanted to stay clean, like I couldn't make it across town.
• 29:30
  Speaker 4: I had to go to my car where my truck was,
• 29:32
  Speaker 4: from where I got pulled over using my truck where
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: I even got home because I was that sick.
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: So anyway, about two months later then I got into treatment.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: I went to hard View and can do I'm pretty
• 29:43
  Speaker 4: famous for working like four day.
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: To two week programs. Okay, so a two weeks again,
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: I was like, I'm ready to go. Well, you guys
• 29:52
  Speaker 2: transferring down you know they wouldn't do it. I said, okay,
• 29:55
  Speaker 2: well then let's say this is different. I'm leaving today, right, So.
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: I left, But for me, like I knew, I knew
• 30:02
  Speaker 4: I needed a couple of weeks to get right, but
• 30:03
  Speaker 4: I knew what I needed to do. I knew the
• 30:05
  Speaker 4: work happened on the other side would happen on the
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: other side. So I I did go on the drug patch.
• 30:12
  Speaker 4: I talked to my pio. My pil said, normally I
• 30:15
  Speaker 4: would not allow you to leave. I wouldn't allow, I
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: asked him. I was like, if I go get a job,
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: the one thing about being clean, right, I think it
• 30:23
  Speaker 4: cleaned to be broke, miserable and barely making it.
• 30:25
  Speaker 2: So I refuse to do that in my recovery because
• 30:28
  Speaker 2: I know that I'm going to go back.
• 30:31
  Speaker 4: So I know that if I go work, like, Okay,
• 30:34
  Speaker 4: the other thing is right, I'm forty years old. Even
• 30:36
  Speaker 4: the job that I work, I'm not gonna make any money,
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: Like I make more money gambling or staying home or
• 30:42
  Speaker 4: collecting benefits or whatever. Right, so whatever I do for work,
• 30:45
  Speaker 4: I bet or really like, I don't go to work
• 30:48
  Speaker 4: for a paycheck.
• 30:48
  Speaker 2: Because it's not enough money. Yeah, think it's just not enough.
• 30:52
  Speaker 4: So I told my field, like, I want to work
• 30:54
  Speaker 4: on my recovery and then I'll figure out the career.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: And he said, normally I wouldn't allow that. He said,
• 30:59
  Speaker 4: but we've been down that, you've been down the road before.
• 31:02
  Speaker 4: I'm gonna trust you know what you need, so I'm
• 31:03
  Speaker 4: gonna allow that. I agreed to go on the drug
• 31:05
  Speaker 4: patch and I just worked on my recover. I went
• 31:08
  Speaker 4: to meetings, I went to the gym, I read, I
• 31:11
  Speaker 4: stayed with my mom for three months before I.
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: Went back home.
• 31:15
  Speaker 4: I have not logged into my messenger on Facebook since
• 31:18
  Speaker 4: I quit using smart I when I went to treatment. Like, yes,
• 31:24
  Speaker 4: I likes that angel Devil thing, right, Like, yes, I
• 31:27
  Speaker 4: put everything into being clean.
• 31:29
  Speaker 2: But did I really think i'd stay clean? No, you
• 31:31
  Speaker 2: know what I mean.
• 31:32
  Speaker 4: I've never had more than six weeks clean outside of
• 31:34
  Speaker 4: a box. The reality is, I didn't think it was
• 31:37
  Speaker 4: gonna happen, But I've never I haven't talked to anybody
• 31:40
  Speaker 4: since I went to treatment. I haven't logged into my
• 31:42
  Speaker 4: my messenger, right, Like, I've never never found the need
• 31:46
  Speaker 4: to go back yet after two years. But I just
• 31:50
  Speaker 4: keep it really simple, especially in the beginning. Like I
• 31:53
  Speaker 4: used to think adding on a whole bunch of stuff
• 31:55
  Speaker 4: was gonna be the thing. Like, I've found that stripping
• 31:58
  Speaker 4: things away is really where it's at, right, strip yourself
• 32:02
  Speaker 4: down to the core of who.
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: You are and figure out who you are.
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: I'm really good at using women as distractions, so I
• 32:11
  Speaker 4: didn't mess.
• 32:12
  Speaker 2: With any women.
• 32:13
  Speaker 4: I didn't have a girlfriend for twenty months something into
• 32:16
  Speaker 4: my recovery, which I should have done.
• 32:19
  Speaker 2: That ten years ago. Yeah, but I just wake up
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: in the morning.
• 32:23
  Speaker 4: I think like, how can I raise my quality of
• 32:24
  Speaker 4: life to day? What can I do to day to
• 32:26
  Speaker 4: raise my quality of life? So for me, that's working
• 32:28
  Speaker 4: out for me, that's like not engaging in moral behavior.
• 32:33
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 32:34
  Speaker 4: One of the greatest gifts that recovery has given me
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: is number one being present with my family.
• 32:40
  Speaker 2: Right, I could actually be there.
• 32:41
  Speaker 4: I'm not thinking about a vaga adope, I'm not thinking
• 32:43
  Speaker 4: about a woman. I'm not thinking about myself. I get
• 32:46
  Speaker 4: to be present.
• 32:51
  Speaker 1: I totally lost, Okay, wake up every day?
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, just totally lost.
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: Okay, So how long did you focus on like that.
• 33:06
  Speaker 1: I'm not going to get a job. I'm just gonna
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: work on my recovery.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, thanks.
• 33:13
  Speaker 4: It was about six months. So my first job I
• 33:15
  Speaker 4: started working at per Recover Center.
• 33:17
  Speaker 2: So my startup.
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: What were you doing there?
• 33:21
  Speaker 2: So it was there that I learned.
• 33:24
  Speaker 4: That I have a lot of skills in the rehab department. Right,
• 33:31
  Speaker 4: So out of all those times in rehabit, all those
• 33:34
  Speaker 4: different programs, I have more experience than any.
• 33:37
  Speaker 2: Counselor that I know.
• 33:38
  Speaker 4: Even if a counselor has worked five different jobs and
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: six different programs or at a twenty year career, I
• 33:43
  Speaker 4: promise you, I've been in different programs and right, so
• 33:47
  Speaker 4: even walking into there, it was very easy for me
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: to see, like, you could do this different to the
• 33:52
  Speaker 4: you know, to make these adjustments, make more money and
• 33:57
  Speaker 4: have a higher quality of output, right covered. So it
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: was there that I really learned that the things that
• 34:04
  Speaker 4: made me a liability in my addiction are my biggest assets, right, Like,
• 34:09
  Speaker 4: so all that time wasn't for waste. All that work
• 34:12
  Speaker 4: I put in for those almost thirty years is what
• 34:17
  Speaker 4: we are now my biggest assets, right, That's what we're
• 34:19
  Speaker 4: talking about now, That's what I'm going to school for.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: That's what in my job that I help people if
• 34:24
  Speaker 4: that's where I can see where people are at in
• 34:26
  Speaker 4: their addiction and like have.
• 34:28
  Speaker 2: An idea of what's going on. So that was a
• 34:32
  Speaker 2: cool thing for me cause I didn't feel like those
• 34:33
  Speaker 2: were assets back right, you know.
• 34:38
  Speaker 4: But the the thing about the job thing is I
• 34:41
  Speaker 4: really getting back to the I think that's where I
• 34:44
  Speaker 4: was going with that, Like I had to figure out
• 34:47
  Speaker 4: like what my purpose is, right and then align my
• 34:49
  Speaker 4: career with whatever that is, because I'm just not like
• 34:54
  Speaker 4: I don't have it interested. Like, if I'm not interested
• 34:57
  Speaker 4: in it, I'm not gonna do it. It's not gonna
• 34:58
  Speaker 4: be re rewarding. I'm fulfilling. It just doesn't make any
• 35:01
  Speaker 4: sense to do it. Yeah, Like I said, I could
• 35:04
  Speaker 4: make more money gambling. One hundred thousand dollars the last
• 35:08
  Speaker 4: six months of my using just not gambling.
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: I was all tax free. I mean, like I haven't
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: made that much.
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: Since, right, technically tax free?
• 35:18
  Speaker 4: I mean it was yeah, right, it was two thousand
• 35:21
  Speaker 4: dollars at a time.
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: But how much did you spend a win of that?
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: Though?
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: I actually kept track of that, and I was very
• 35:28
  Speaker 2: little in comparison.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Interesting, I took pictures of all my wins to add
• 35:33
  Speaker 1: them up, huh, because I.
• 35:34
  Speaker 2: Did it for I've gambled for three years.
• 35:36
  Speaker 4: So the first year was like twenty five thousand, The
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: next year was forty five thousand. The last six months,
• 35:41
  Speaker 4: like I said, it was ninety four thousand sorr.
• 35:45
  Speaker 2: But I don't make that much now, right. But the
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: thing about that is, first.
• 35:52
  Speaker 4: Of all, I probably could do it still, right, but
• 35:55
  Speaker 4: it's too much like using for me. Number One, somebody's
• 35:58
  Speaker 4: gonna see me in a bar or a gamp establishment,
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: which I don't think reflects will for the job that
• 36:03
  Speaker 4: I do. It's not the image I want to put
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: off the same Like, it's just not not what I'm
• 36:09
  Speaker 4: trying to do.
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: The Other thing is it attaches me to people that
• 36:14
  Speaker 2: are using right, you know.
• 36:18
  Speaker 4: And fast money isn't it doesn't make it. My son,
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: my thirteen year old, says all the time, Dad, you
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: ever think about going back to gambling? Because, like I
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: made him believer if I left with no money and
• 36:28
  Speaker 4: I came home with twenty thousand.
• 36:30
  Speaker 2: Dollars, not ten minutes, probably fifty minutes later, he's like,
• 36:34
  Speaker 2: you just want all that? I'm like, yeah, you know
• 36:35
  Speaker 2: what I mean.
• 36:36
  Speaker 4: It was a stack of white that big, but the
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: next day.
• 36:39
  Speaker 2: It was gone, right, Yeah, Like it doesn't last.
• 36:43
  Speaker 4: The money I make now isn't as much, but it
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: sustains us.
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: And it lasts consistent, yeats longer.
• 36:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there's more value to it. Yeah, But I strongly
• 36:54
  Speaker 2: believe after.
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: A short period of time, once you're back on track,
• 37:00
  Speaker 4: you need to figure out, like what.
• 37:02
  Speaker 2: What your purpose is, because without it, why would you
• 37:05
  Speaker 2: stay clean? Right?
• 37:07
  Speaker 4: No, I don't want to just exist right, Like that's
• 37:10
  Speaker 4: not fulfilling at all. And like I said before the
• 37:14
  Speaker 4: day that my quality of life in recovery drops below
• 37:17
  Speaker 4: what it was when I was using.
• 37:18
  Speaker 2: I'm going to go back to using. I must rather
• 37:20
  Speaker 2: be high and feel like crap than to do that.
• 37:25
  Speaker 1: Absolutely, So yeah, I mean for.
• 37:28
  Speaker 2: Me, recovery it's just been.
• 37:29
  Speaker 4: Like like a rebirth, right, Like I get to learn
• 37:33
  Speaker 4: about like I love normal people problems, right, worrying about
• 37:37
  Speaker 4: just it doesn't matter what it is in the normal
• 37:39
  Speaker 4: people realm. Their problems are so funny that somebody dying
• 37:46
  Speaker 4: me going to jail for it, or getting my door
• 37:48
  Speaker 4: kicked in or getting robbed or you know what I mean,
• 37:51
  Speaker 4: like worrying about a bill leaking roof, And That's what
• 37:55
  Speaker 4: I'm worried about now.
• 37:57
  Speaker 1: I mean, it's so fun.
• 38:00
  Speaker 2: Like I just look at things. Is opportunities now right,
• 38:04
  Speaker 2: probably opportunities.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Tell us about your current employment if you can.
• 38:11
  Speaker 4: So we're going to five projects. The transitional living coordinator
• 38:15
  Speaker 4: for Bismarck. Okay, So we have twelve men transitioning mostly
• 38:20
  Speaker 4: out of state and federal prisons. Some of them are
• 38:23
  Speaker 4: free trial release. So we're transitional living more than sober living.
• 38:28
  Speaker 4: Our goal is to get you back independent, stay clean,
• 38:33
  Speaker 4: and back in your feet.
• 38:35
  Speaker 1: How like, how do you do that or what are
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: some resources that maybe you provide for that transition.
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: Well, so I don't like provide lots of resources. I'll
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: always match your motivation, but I'm not gonna do it
• 38:51
  Speaker 4: for you. So it's really how motivated you are. We
• 38:55
  Speaker 4: provide a safe environment, we don't allow using. We expect
• 38:59
  Speaker 4: you to go to three meetings week, we expect you
• 39:01
  Speaker 4: to work.
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: But outside of that, like you need to develop your
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: own structure and how you're gonna go get that. M
• 39:10
  Speaker 2: F five project doesn't have lots of resources.
• 39:12
  Speaker 4: We have like care coordinators and pure support on FTR
• 39:16
  Speaker 4: nineteen fifteen nine and things like that, But I.
• 39:22
  Speaker 2: Don't do nothing for anyone.
• 39:23
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, yeah. Do you feel like someone coming out
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: of the prison system is almost set up to fail?
• 39:33
  Speaker 1: Maybe sounds like a cliche, but that's kind of what
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: I'm getting at, Like, because it's hard to get a
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: job as a felon, it's hard to get housing as
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: a felon. Or is that inaccurate?
• 39:44
  Speaker 4: I mean, it depends on your mindset, right, If that's
• 39:47
  Speaker 4: what you think, then you're absolutely right.
• 39:49
  Speaker 2: You believe is the absolute truth.
• 39:51
  Speaker 4: I think, like, I think that people like us are
• 39:55
  Speaker 4: in a unique position that we can do anything we want, right,
• 39:58
  Speaker 4: not to answer to anybody.
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: We don't to worry about a reputation.
• 40:01
  Speaker 4: We don't have to worry about what somebody thinks about
• 40:03
  Speaker 4: us or feels about us. Like we literally have nothing
• 40:05
  Speaker 4: to lose and everything to gain, even me, Like, yeah,
• 40:11
  Speaker 4: I mean there's certain things I could say that my
• 40:12
  Speaker 4: boss might frown on me, right, but I get to
• 40:14
  Speaker 4: stay raw, I get to I get to develop who
• 40:17
  Speaker 4: I am and again, right, I mean, so I take
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: that back.
• 40:22
  Speaker 2: The longer we stay clean, the more we have to lose.
• 40:24
  Speaker 4: I have been clean two years, so I do have
• 40:26
  Speaker 4: something to lose now, But it's.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Still not enough for me to not like I could.
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: I still know I can do whatever I want to do,
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: you know what I mean? And now we can even
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: be president and be a felon. So like, what can
• 40:38
  Speaker 2: you do? Right? I mean?
• 40:39
  Speaker 4: To me, that's just as a victim mindset, you know
• 40:44
  Speaker 4: what I mean. How many people have gotten out and
• 40:46
  Speaker 4: become very successful, But it's all how you measure your success,
• 40:49
  Speaker 4: right when I go bowling to me, success is just
• 40:53
  Speaker 4: not getting on either side, right, I don't care how
• 40:56
  Speaker 4: many pends I get, as long as it doesn't go
• 40:58
  Speaker 4: in the gutter to win for me, right, And that's
• 41:01
  Speaker 4: really how I run my life too.
• 41:03
  Speaker 2: As long as I don't gutter ball, I'm doing good.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: I like that. How did you find your purpose?
• 41:12
  Speaker 2: Reading? Self? Figured out who I was and with no distractions?
• 41:19
  Speaker 2: That was really what it was. I think, like the
• 41:21
  Speaker 2: first ten months.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: I read, like that's all I did all day, Like
• 41:26
  Speaker 4: I read every waking moment pretty much.
• 41:27
  Speaker 2: I'd go to the gym where i'd read, or i'd
• 41:29
  Speaker 2: listen to.
• 41:31
  Speaker 4: Like successful people, people that I want to be, Like, right,
• 41:33
  Speaker 4: I'm not gonna listen to somebody I don't want to
• 41:35
  Speaker 4: be like, or listen to somebody who has things.
• 41:38
  Speaker 2: That I don't want or a life I don't want.
• 41:40
  Speaker 2: I'm not. I don't not gonna take your advice or listen.
• 41:43
  Speaker 2: I don't if I listen to you, am I gonna
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: be like you? If so?
• 41:46
  Speaker 4: I mean, I mean that's how I wait that right?
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: So yeah, I mean really it was just working on myself.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: What were you reading?
• 41:55
  Speaker 3: Like all?
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: I went through lots of phases like.
• 42:03
  Speaker 4: Meditation books like The Boian Hill, like Outwitting Devil or Think.
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: And Grow Rich stuff like that, mkay. A lot of
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: attraction books.
• 42:12
  Speaker 1: Yeah, for anyone out there currently who is stuck in
• 42:20
  Speaker 1: the depths of Actually, let me go back, how did
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: you find your spiritual awakening? What did that look like
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: for you? Cause you talked about that. Remind me, well
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: you said, I think you just said at one point,
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: just it's a it's about a spiritual awakening.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, so for me, one of the things I
• 42:41
  Speaker 2: went to teen challenge like two thousand seven. K.
• 42:46
  Speaker 4: So, I use my faith in belief in a belief
• 42:50
  Speaker 4: in the Higher Power is an excuse for inaction for
• 42:52
  Speaker 4: a large part.
• 42:53
  Speaker 2: Of my life.
• 42:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, explain that.
• 42:58
  Speaker 4: It's in God's hands, right, it's helped to God. Okay, Like,
• 43:02
  Speaker 4: or I have faith that this is gonna work out,
• 43:04
  Speaker 4: but I didn't put it in any work.
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: Sure, I took no responsibility. Okay, I use my faith
• 43:10
  Speaker 2: as an excuse.
• 43:10
  Speaker 4: So now in my recovery, I tread lightly on on that, right, Like, uh,
• 43:17
  Speaker 4: the spiritual aspect is huge, but I have a role.
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: In this, you know what I mean.
• 43:23
  Speaker 4: And I'm like, so I just tread lightly because I
• 43:24
  Speaker 4: know I can get tripped up very easily.
• 43:29
  Speaker 2: With that.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: So it's almost like a balance because you know, Biblically
• 43:34
  Speaker 1: it does talk about like give it over to God essentially,
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: like he'll take it. But you were doing too much
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: of that, right, that's all you were living by, And.
• 43:43
  Speaker 4: Then it opened up a whole new whole.
• 43:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, sure was it almost like a justification though versus
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: like a true lifestyle, right yeah, okay. So for anyone
• 44:00
  Speaker 1: out there who might be struggling at this moment with
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: their substance use, what's something you would tell.
• 44:05
  Speaker 3: Them, Oh, it's it's like such a big deal when
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: you're in it, right, Like such a big deal, But
• 44:17
  Speaker 3: it's such.
• 44:18
  Speaker 4: A like all you have to do is not use.
• 44:20
  Speaker 4: It's so simple, and it's so hard when you're in it.
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: But if you just make the next right decision like
• 44:27
  Speaker 4: three four times, you start creating the gap. And if
• 44:31
  Speaker 4: you do that for a few days, you can start
• 44:33
  Speaker 4: seeing the gap. And you do that for a few weeks,
• 44:35
  Speaker 4: and you can start seeing like how simple that is.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: But it's so easy, and it's so amazing how quickly
• 44:44
  Speaker 2: your life would changed.
• 44:46
  Speaker 4: I remember vividly one Sunday I literally had a gun
• 44:50
  Speaker 4: and was gonna shoot myself, right, But by the next
• 44:53
  Speaker 4: Sunday in my life was so much better. And I
• 44:55
  Speaker 4: was just seven days of not doing things that made
• 44:58
  Speaker 4: me feel like crap. I know that, like that stuff
• 45:04
  Speaker 4: robs your life. There's probably like five moments in the
• 45:07
  Speaker 4: thirty years I had where I I'd had this moment
• 45:10
  Speaker 4: and I'd be like, WHOA five years has gone by
• 45:13
  Speaker 4: since the last time I was sober. It feels like
• 45:16
  Speaker 4: a second, like this stuff is probably in my life,
• 45:18
  Speaker 4: or when I celebrated my ten year annivers your twenty
• 45:22
  Speaker 4: year aniverse, almost thirty years of using like that's crazy
• 45:25
  Speaker 4: to me. I've been fourteen years old and I'm not
• 45:30
  Speaker 4: I'm not and there's no like, there's no such thing
• 45:37
  Speaker 4: as like a sexy old jump zone. Yeah yeah, our eyes,
• 45:45
  Speaker 4: Like I may still see myself as that young person,
• 45:48
  Speaker 4: but like, I'm not that dude. I'm not like and
• 45:51
  Speaker 4: the only one who can't see it then is probably
• 45:53
  Speaker 4: me because we lose our perspective of that.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: And life is so.
• 46:01
  Speaker 4: It's so cool, you know what I mean, It's so cool,
• 46:04
  Speaker 4: and but you'll never know about less like you're just trying.
• 46:08
  Speaker 2: That's only as hard as we made.
• 46:10
  Speaker 3: It, I know.
• 46:11
  Speaker 4: So I had the privilege of my veins being shot right,
• 46:16
  Speaker 4: like I don't have anywhere else to go so the
• 46:20
  Speaker 4: one thing I did is it wasn't an option to use.
• 46:22
  Speaker 2: No matter what.
• 46:23
  Speaker 4: So instead of getting too far ahead of myself, I
• 46:26
  Speaker 4: just said, until I'm off.
• 46:27
  Speaker 2: Probation, I'm not gonna use no matter like. So I
• 46:30
  Speaker 2: took using off the table one hundred percent.
• 46:32
  Speaker 4: So the fact that I said that, and then my
• 46:34
  Speaker 4: veins don't work anyway, never thought about using again.
• 46:39
  Speaker 2: But then I was able to just focus on Okay,
• 46:41
  Speaker 2: so now I'm.
• 46:42
  Speaker 4: Stuck in this, there's no option to use. How do
• 46:45
  Speaker 4: I raise my quality life today? How do I get
• 46:46
  Speaker 4: through this? And with that like that, I got off
• 46:51
  Speaker 4: probation a very short time later, like eleven months, and
• 46:54
  Speaker 4: I've just never wanted to pick back up because of
• 46:56
  Speaker 4: what I built in the meantime surpasses anything that I
• 46:59
  Speaker 4: go back to.
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: Mm hmm, yeah, Well you do have a very inspiring story.
• 47:05
  Speaker 1: I think you are a very big asset to the
• 47:07
  Speaker 1: recovery community and I really appreciate that, and I appreciate
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: you sharing your journey with us today.
• 47:12
  Speaker 5: Thank you, thank you.
• 52:40
  Speaker 2: You don't know anything more. Glum Tol