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California Votes on 15 MPA Changes in October. Who Got a Say? · How To Protect The Ocean

0:00
California has a network of marine protected areas that
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includes 124 protected areas.
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That's a lot.
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And you would think, like back when it was established in 2013, that they would have
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this process that would help manage the changes that happen on a regular basis.
0:17
So, you can have changes in fish populations, changes in climate
0:21
change, changes in economics of the state and how things are going, how
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people are using the different MPAs.
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And also looking at the science and the data that goes into be
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like, is this MPA effective?
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Like, not all 124 are gonna be super, uh, effective.
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Like, these are added as way… Like, all the locations were done
0:39
on purpose, but maybe some aren't as effective as they thought, and
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they may have to move or expand or shrink or whatever that might be.
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And you would think a lot of work would be put into it.
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And when they talk about revisiting it as part of an adaptive management
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process 10 years later in 2023, you would think that they would
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include all of that information.
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But California didn't do that.
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And we have Anupa Asoka on, who is the executive director of FishON, and
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she's here to talk about that process and how it's failing not only the MPAs,
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but also the people who depend on those protected areas and who want and are not
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getting the equitable chance to speak.
1:21
We're gonna talk all about that on today's episode of the How to Protect the Ocean
1:25
podcast, 'cause that's what we do here.
1:27
If you love this kind of information about how processes work in the
1:31
ocean and how marine protected areas get better or sometimes maybe get
1:35
worse or need to get better through recommendations, this is not only the
1:38
episode for you, but the podcast for you.
1:40
Hit that follow button on your favorite podcast app.
1:43
and also I wanted to kind of acknowledge that Anupa has an organizational podcast.
1:49
A Fish On Air is what it's called.
1:51
Fish On Air.
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I'm gonna put the link in the show notes, and I'm also gonna put a link to,
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petitions that you can do if you hear what she says and you hit on it and you're
1:58
like, "I wanna take part in this process."
2:00
Go in the show notes, check that out, hit the link for those petitions and ways you
2:04
can get to the next meeting in October.
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I believe she said it was October 13th.
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So, those are very important dates to remember as you listen to this episode.
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Um, but here is Anupa Asoka from FishON talking about the California
2:18
Marine Protected Area process and how it's failing the people
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as well as the environment when it should be protecting them.
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We're gonna talk about that today.
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Enjoy the interview, and I'll talk to you after.
2:28
Hey, Anupa.
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Welcome back to the How to Protect the Ocean podcast.
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Are you ready to talk about California's marine protected areas?
2:36
I was born ready.
2:38
Thanks for having me back.
2:39
Ah, I love it.
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MPAs have been my life for the last I don't know how many years now.
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Oh, I can imagine.
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I can imagine.
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Look, we were talking just before, uh, recording, and there's so
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much going on in this process.
2:53
Uh, we're gonna cut through all of it, and we're gonna really find out 'cause,
2:56
like, I want the people listening to this to really understand how this process
3:02
could have gone and how it's going and to really look at the unnecessary stuff
3:08
that has been happening that is kinda getting in the way of, you know, the
3:13
process, the management process and getting more effective marine protected
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areas and listening to the people.
3:19
And I think there's a lot of serious things that are happening in this
3:21
process that we're gonna address today.
3:24
Um, but before we get into all of that, Anupa, like, last time I had you on, uh,
3:28
you were in a very different role, with marine protected areas, and we also talked
3:32
about the WAPWell conference, with Angelo.
3:34
But now you have an organization called Fish On.
3:37
So before we get into Fish On, just let us know who you are, what you do,
3:41
and then we'll talk a lot about this wonderful organization you started.
3:44
Yeah.
3:44
I'm really excited to be back on the show, so thanks for having me.
3:48
You bet.
3:48
I am a marine scientist.
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I actually studied oceanography in graduate school.
3:53
Um, but I've been working in the science policy world for a long
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time, mostly with environmental NGOs.
4:01
Had a little stint at NOAA, in the past too.
4:04
And I recently started, I guess it's been two years now, I started
4:08
this organization called Fish On.
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My first connection to the ocean was fishing and, you know, working on the
4:15
environmental side, I always found myself up against the fishermen and
4:20
never really felt represented by those typical fishing interest organizations.
4:26
So Fish On was sort of born to be that middle ground and represent the more
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conservation-minded angler, spearfisher, and take this, like, solutions-oriented
4:36
voice for protecting our ocean.
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So I like to say that, I think a lot of the fishing interest groups fight
4:43
for fishermen and their rights, and we are fishers fighting for our fish.
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I like that, it's very interesting.
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I've had a lot of conversations, in my, position now at Pisces.
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We have a lot of clientele that are very much, Indigenous-focused, and a lot of the
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times… they've got fishing backgrounds.
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Like, their identity is fishing, from centuries and centuries ago.
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That's what they care about.
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They care about the fish.
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You know?
5:12
Mm-hmm.
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whether it comes out good or bad for them, they care about the fish.
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And I think that's a, I think it gets lost a little bit, you know, for some
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communities where, you know, it's all about catching the fish and what
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comes with that, especially nowadays with all the social stuff and the
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bragging and all this kind of stuff.
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But, like, it is really about the fish, isn't it?
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So, like, what are… Like, when, when, you know, you, you talk about, you
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know, a community of fishermen and, and, and fishers who are looking to
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look out for the fish, how do you do that but balance with that recreational
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aspect of going out and fishing?
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'Cause I assume you're still fishing.
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I've seen pictures of you still, fishing.
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how do you balance that out essentially?
5:52
Yeah.
5:53
I mean, we really take a science-forward approach, right?
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Like, there are real threats to the ocean.
5:59
There are things that we need to do, and as a fishing community,
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we also need to recognize that we have an impact on the ocean.
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and there's a responsibility there.
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Like, if you are willing to take from the ocean, you also have to
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be willing to give back to it.
6:14
And that's the lens and sort of the values that we bring to
6:18
every issue that we approach.
6:20
So that might look like, on the fishery management side, you know, common
6:24
sense approaches for the long-term health of our fisheries, not just our
6:28
short-term access opportunity right now.
6:32
So maybe that's a closed season for spawning aggregations of a
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fish that we like to catch, right?
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So we close it down for maybe a month out of the year so those fish
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can reproduce and we can fish on.
6:45
I like that.
6:46
Um- I love it.
6:48
I love it.
6:48
Yeah.
6:49
No,
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that's- And yeah, we also work on issues like clean water, um, supporting our
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partners at the Waterkeeper network, um, and bringing the fishing community
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in to support some of the, that work.
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marine protected areas, which I see as an opportunity to restore important-
7:05
Mm-hmm … habitat and ecosystems.
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We work on environmental justice and equitable access issues.
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yeah.
7:12
So you're looking at the whole gamut.
7:13
Like it's not- Mm-hmm … just about fish, but it i- I mean, it is about
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fish, but there's a lot that goes into ensuring that like the fish that you're
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fishing are going to be sustainable.
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We're looking at habitat, we're looking at rights holders.
7:27
Yeah.
7:27
We're looking at people who have a say, access to beaches and
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areas to fish, all this stuff.
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So it's really the entire ecosystem underwater and above water, but
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it really is about the fish.
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Like, that's all that's connected.
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And I think it's interesting because a while back, uh, when I was working
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for Fisheries and Oceans Canada, they changed our fish habitat law, uh, or
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Fisheries Act, and what they did is they took out the habitat protection
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when we look at fisheries, and they only looked at the established fisheries, so
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recreational, Aboriginal, and commercial.
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And then that government left, we put it back.
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Long story in there, but that was what they were concerned about.
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But you know, the whole thing is the entire ecosystem above water and
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below water, which is so important.
8:09
So I'm so happy that, you guys are doing that.
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now when you started this, you said you started about two years ago.
8:16
I'm sure that a lot has happened in, in those two years.
8:19
You and I have discussed it, a couple of times.
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But, you know, like, how do you, as someone who's, uh, you
8:25
know, marine science background, fishing background, You obviously,
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you've been working in policy.
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How do you start a brand new organization and become part of this community of
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other NGOs as well as, uh, I guess fishing organizations, and kind of
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bring it together with this approach?
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Like, is your approach from your organization and your standpoint a unique
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approach within the area that you're working with, like within, essentially
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it's, I guess it's California, right?
8:55
Yeah.
8:55
Um, we do a little bit of federal level work, but as you know,
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progress is hard to come by- Right
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uh, at the moment.
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So we're doing our best to support defense and protecting what we have
9:07
protected- … to the best that we can.
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but yeah, I mean, you know, I've been doing this work for almost 20 years now.
9:14
Yeah.
9:15
Uh, so I have a pretty solid network.
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People know me.
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They know what I stand for, both from, fishing communities that I'm
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a part of or that I've interacted with, as well as the science and
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kind of environmental NGO side.
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So I don't know.
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I feel like everything sort of built up to me starting this organization, and
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I feel like I was the person to try to make this happen, 'cause there really
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is no other fishing interest group like us- particularly on the West Coast.
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I would say there's the American Saltwater Guides Association, ASGA, yeah, on
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the East Coast that kind of similarly takes a precautionary approach to- Yeah
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how we manage fisheries.
9:57
but there's this real opportunity here in California with our Marine
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Protected Area network, that a lot of other states don't have, that I think
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is a really cool kind of complementary approach to protecting the ocean-
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Mm-hmm
10:12
… alongside fishery management.
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that reaches everyone, not just the fishing community, right?
10:17
I'm also a surfer.
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I like to dive and experience the ocean in other ways.
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And, most of our ocean laws and how we manage the ocean are related to
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fisheries, and that's less than 1% of things that live in the ocean.
10:32
Yeah.
10:33
Like, that's what we're tracking, that's what we're managing, and we're expecting
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everything's gonna be fine otherwise.
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There's a lot that we're still learning about the ocean.
10:42
Oh, yeah.
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And, so many threats out there that marine protected areas become
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that insurance policy, which I'm sure you've talked about before.
10:51
Oh,
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yeah.
10:51
Just to make sure, even if we get fishery management wrong, there's at
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least some habitat that is hopefully protecting those things that people like
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to catch or rely on the ocean for, so.
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And I mean, like, with everything else going on and climate change really
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starting to drastically affect communities underwater, habitats underwater,
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above water as well, of course.
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But, these areas need to become more resilient, and the protected
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areas system established in California has that opportunity to
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do that, as well as other places.
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And it has, in a lot of other places.
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We know that if we take away certain human extractive activities or
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human disturbance activities, With everything else going on, we know that
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these systems can, recover, right?
11:33
Uh, you've worked in marine protected areas for years and, and you know this.
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And I love the fact that when you started the organization, you mentioned that
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you've been building this network for a long time, and maybe not with this
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purpose in mind at the beginning when you started to build this network-
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Yeah … as you worked through it.
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But, like, I remember, too, you, were on the board for Surfrider one point.
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Uh, I'm not sure if that's still the case, but, like, that connection
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is huge, especially in California.
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Having all the other connections, like working with NRDC and even with contacts
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in Still a No and stuff like that.
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Like, you have that ability, you have that name within there so that
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starting this organization, people must have been like, "Okay, cool.
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Like, this, you know, like, uh, like Anupa's got it down.
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Like, we know what she can do.
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We know what she's gonna look out for." And I think that probably
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allows you to partner with a lot of people and organizations that,
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you know, may not have thought about partnering with anybody else.
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But now that you come in with this unique but also needed, you know,
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approach- Mm-hmm it works out pretty well, which I think is fantastic.
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I don't-- You know, a lot of people, I think, come out of school and
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they just start an organization.
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Makes it a lot more difficult to start.
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But once you have that experience and you have the lay of the land, or the
12:41
water in this case, you can really see where you can have an impact.
12:45
Uh, that's still, like, a pretty big risk in your career to start an organization.
12:51
Not an easy thing to do, especially these days.
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Can I ask, like, I know this is a little personal, so if you don't feel
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comfortable doing it, it's all right.
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How has that been for you in terms of making sure things get funded, you
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know, salary paid, things like that?
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Like, the organization continue to run in these two years.
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This is a very important time for you and your organization, and get
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the stuff done to have that impact.
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How have you found that transition?
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'Cause there are a lot of people who are thinking about that transition as well.
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How have you found that transition for yourself at this point in your career?
13:23
Yeah.
13:24
I'm really lucky in that I had a great champion and sort of mentor in this,
13:29
which is, Marce, who founded Azul.
13:31
Yes.
13:32
I guess-
13:32
Yes
13:33
they just celebrated their quinceañera, so it's been 15 years.
13:36
Nice.
13:36
So I was able to, get some lessons learned from her, and one of her
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biggest pieces of advice was to start, as a project of a fiscal
13:45
sponsor and to find a fiscal sponsor.
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So, a lot of people think that, like, that's who funds me, but
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actually it's the other way around.
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I pay them, so all the grants that I bring in, a certain percentage
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goes to Earth Island Institute as our- Mm-hmm … fiscal sponsor.
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Yep.
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And they're, like, our backbone 501[c][3] that we operate under.
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So they take care of, like, filing with the IRS and all of this
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accounting stuff that I don't need to, I mean, I still- It's-
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track obviously, but- Of course … like, it just takes that, some of
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that- Oh … administrative burden- Huge burden … off my plate.
14:16
Huge.
14:17
Yeah.
14:18
Earth Island Institute- Yeah … has been around for years, too.
14:19
They've been a very well-established, working on a lot of different pl-
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I think Plastic Pollution Coalition has been involved with them.
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Mm-hmm.
14:25
They've they sponsor a lot of, I guess fiscally sponsor a lot of organizations
14:28
in the US- Yeah … and beyond.
14:29
Yeah.
14:30
Good job.
14:30
So that has been super helpful in allowing me to, focus on the work
14:34
that I know how to do and I know how to do well, um, and then have someone
14:39
to lean on for the administrative piece of running the organization.
14:43
So that's been- Love it … yeah- Love it … an easy way to get started.
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I love it.
14:48
That's fantastic.
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okay.
14:50
Let's talk about the work that you do with FishOn.
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In particular, we're focusing on protected areas, in California.
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You mentioned the network of protected areas that have
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been going on for California.
15:01
Can you just kinda give us the context, like a bit of the background?
15:04
I know it's a long story 'cause, like, it's been going on for years, but can
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you guys give the, the background of when it was established, and then what
15:11
happened even after it was established?
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'Cause there's some, parties, rights holders, that were not necessarily happy
15:17
what they say, left out of the situation.
15:19
I don't know the full story here, but can you kinda enlighten us in terms of
15:23
the context of, what we're at right now?
15:26
Yeah.
15:26
So California has a network of marine protected areas.
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There are 124 of them, which were, I think, officially established around 2012.
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And there was a big process that went into it.
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there were some, like, longstanding, like, they were called marine
15:42
life refuges, I think, back in the day, sporadically here and there.
15:47
but they did this big stakeholder process.
15:51
They brought in environmental groups, fishing groups, and had these
15:54
committees, and it was this long, drawn-out negotiation process to
16:00
design and establish a network of MPAs.
16:04
So they're designed to be connected and kind of work together to protect species
16:09
and habitats along the California coast.
16:13
What was written into the law to establish that network is also this thing called
16:17
adaptive management, which is really smart because as threats change, as our needs
16:23
change as a community, and as people's values change and evolve over time, it
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gives us the opportunity to make changes to that network so that it continues
16:33
to serve people and planet, in theory.
16:37
Um, ongoing.
16:39
So we reached this 10-year mark, and the state, they've been doing tons of
16:43
science and monitoring, and it was this opportunity for adaptive management.
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They called it a decadal management review after 10 years of having these MPAs.
16:54
So I think many of us saw it as an opportunity like, "Gosh, we didn't
16:59
think about climate change when we designed this network." we also
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have learned a lot about, like, social justice in the last 10 years.
17:07
there are, like, best practices, and we know more about the communities
17:13
that were left out and how public process can be exclusionary.
17:18
So much, right, has been learned on that front.
17:21
So this was a real opportunity to look at the network and say, like, "Okay, are we
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going to be okay through climate change?
17:28
And who was left out, and what are their needs, and how can we make sure
17:32
that our network is serving them?" So I would've liked for the state to
17:37
have thought about that holistically, taken all of the science and monitoring
17:42
that they've done over the years and said, "Okay, here are the gaps.
17:45
Here's what we're gonna propose for maybe some minor tweaks.
17:48
Maybe it's like a border that's easier to notice or lines up with
17:52
some landmark, on the coast." but also like, "Hey, we know more about,
17:57
current modeling along the coast.
18:00
This is a big gap in our network." Or the entire urban area of Los Angeles, which
18:07
is like a third of the state's population, it's really hard to get to all the MPAs,
18:13
and one of them is actually near me.
18:16
Because of land subsidence issues, You can't even get down to it from shore.
18:21
Really?
18:21
And they just closed the one to the north, because of erosion.
18:24
It was too dangerous to get down, right?
18:26
So that was another opportunity.
18:28
Like, how can we make sure that this big urban center can experience
18:33
one of our state parks underwater?
18:35
Mm-hmm.
18:35
Um, the state didn't do that.
18:37
Instead, they put the onus on the public and public interest
18:41
organizations to submit petitions for changes that they wanted.
18:46
And what came out of that, we have, you know, some environmental groups really,
18:50
did their best to look at the science.
18:52
we're losing kelp forests along the state.
18:54
So there's a pretty holistic petition that looks at persistent kelp forests
19:00
and proposes some new MPAs, proposes strengthening or expanding existing MPAs
19:05
to make sure that those areas that have been mapped as persistent and resilient
19:09
kelp forests, are part of the MPA network.
19:13
Um, then there are other petitions from, fishing industry groups to open reserves
19:20
and other MPAs to their commercial activity, whether it's diving, or
19:25
commercial harvest of sea urchins to, pelagic fishing in some of our largest
19:32
and longest, lived marine reserves.
19:35
So it runs the gamut, and we've been going through this process for… I think
19:42
petitions were submitted back in 2023.
19:44
This has been really drawn out.
19:47
Yeah.
19:47
our Department of Fish and Wildlife came back with their recommendations.
19:52
they didn't really look at climate change.
19:56
They flat out didn't answer the questions that they were supposed to or evaluate
20:01
the petitions based on environmental justice and equitable access.
20:06
They just said, "We don't know how to do it, so we're not going to." me,
20:10
myself, along with a lot of other people caused a stink, and they finally did it.
20:15
yeah, it's been quite a slog.
20:17
And then recently, another state agency weighed in, trying to at least answer
20:22
the climate question and support, uh, some of the tribally led petitions.
20:27
And we're finally gonna reach the start of a decision point next month.
20:32
That was a lot.
20:32
Okay.
20:34
It's, it's a lot, and obviously not good news in the way that this was managed.
20:39
And very what it seems to me As someone who doesn't live in California, doesn't
20:44
live in the US, California always seems to be like the lead in especially
20:50
environmental, projects, whether it be renewable energy, whether it be
20:55
making sure that the coastline is not subjected to oil and gas platforms and,
21:02
so forth, and it's renewable energy.
21:05
We know Californians love their coastline.
21:07
They love to use the water.
21:08
They love to fish.
21:10
Like, there's commercial and recreational fishing.
21:12
There's, all these different types of outdoor sports: scuba diving,
21:16
snorkeling, free diving, kayaking, and just boating in general.
21:21
I just did an interview with, a guy who owns like, one of the largest,
21:25
uh, boat dealers, and he's now getting into electric motors and
21:29
loving it, and people are loving it.
21:32
And the government of California has been the lead in a lot of this, like,
21:35
encouraging this type of behavior.
21:38
And, you know, it's gotten expensive to live there with a lot of the,
21:41
programs that have come out.
21:43
But this is very surprising too, all the work that they went through to establish
21:49
these networks of marine protected area.
21:51
You said over, what was it, 120 something?
21:53
Did you say a hundred and how many?
21:55
124. Hundred and twenty-four MPAs.
21:57
and these are all like inter-- Well, most of them are like
22:00
interconnected, like there's biological connectivity within them.
22:03
That means larval dispersal and everything that has been accounted for, and there's
22:07
so much work that's been put into it.
22:09
And I remember when this was established and covering it on the
22:12
podcast, where it's like the adaptive management point, part is such an
22:17
important aspect into the longevity of the effectiveness of these MPAs.
22:21
'Cause, like when you first put an MPA together, you don't know.
22:25
Like, you think you've done the right thing.
22:27
You've put all the science, you've got all as much feedback as you can.
22:30
It's not a perfect process, but, you know, you do your best.
22:33
But in 10 years, you can kinda look it's like, " are all the MPAs working out well?
22:37
Are they not?
22:38
And what's that problem?
22:39
Is it on us?
22:40
Is it maybe climate change?" Is like, I've read the science that certain
22:44
MPAs may not do well because it's more affected by climate change, and
22:47
that might be a way of looking at new areas that might be better to protect,
22:52
that more effective to protect.
22:53
So there's a lot of stuff that goes in on here, and it had such
22:56
an opportunity to like incorporate all, as you mentioned, holistically
23:01
incorporate all this stuff into there.
23:04
And they just like failed on it and put it on the people to say, "What
23:08
problem are you having?" Were people just surprised at this approach?
23:13
Cause, like, I'm sure it's written in the original documents, like, this is
23:16
how adaptive management is gonna go.
23:18
Was this, like the original plan for it?
23:21
Like, just getting the feedback and that's it?
23:23
I don't think that there was a really good, I don't know, plan or framework for
23:29
what adaptive management would look like.
23:32
Mm-hmm.
23:32
And that might be part of the problem, right?
23:35
Right.
23:35
Right.
23:35
We've been figuring it out.
23:37
I mean, I've watched commissioners, the body that will ultimately make
23:41
the decision here, debate in real time on how the process should go.
23:47
Hmm.
23:47
And I think that's been part of why it's been so, drug out for this long.
23:52
Yeah.
23:53
Dragged out.
23:54
Um-
23:54
Gotcha.
23:55
Yeah.
23:55
so hopefully at the end of this, right, there are some really good lessons
23:59
learned and- Yeah … I don't know, a working group, something pulled together
24:04
for- Right … how we can do adaptive management more effectively and really
24:08
bring in the voices that continue to be left out of these conversations.
24:13
Um- Absolutely … yeah, I think, I've written about this on our blog, but the
24:18
Department of Fish and Wildlife is really stuck in the past, and staff at the
24:22
commission too, and it's been really hard.
24:25
I feel like I spent a lot of my public testimony just, like, fighting for my
24:29
right to exist and have a voice in the space, and for other communities of color
24:34
to be able to participate in those spaces.
24:36
and hopefully slowly breaking through and making progress on that front because I
24:43
think from a procedural equity kind of lens on all of this, the state has not
24:49
done a good job at c- creating safe spaces and making sure, there was opportunity for
24:55
people to feel welcome and to feel heard.
24:58
Um- Right … voices were minimized.
24:59
Students have been told that, I don't wanna hear how much you love
25:03
the ocean." And you know, certain fishermen's voices elevated over
25:08
others because they profit off of it.
25:10
And I think that mentality really needs to shift if we're
25:14
gonna make meaningful progress.
25:17
Let me ask you this, 'cause it seems like a lot of this has come out
25:21
of not only the Fish and Wildlife, which still again is surprising that
25:26
they're taking this type of approach.
25:29
You mentioned the commissioners and the commission.
25:30
So how is that established?
25:32
Is that made up of people within Fish and Wildlife to manage this,
25:36
or is this, like, appointed people or do they have to apply to it?
25:39
what are their backgrounds essentially in how this commission works?
25:42
Yeah.
25:43
So there are five state fish and game commissioners, and they're
25:46
appointed by a governor, and I think confirmed by the Senate.
25:51
it is essentially a volunteer role.
25:53
They all have separate full-time jobs.
25:56
so it's a lot to ask of someone- It's a lot to ask … to be on
26:00
the Fish and Game Commission.
26:01
And there's a certain level of, stability that you have to have in your other
26:07
work and personal life- Of course … to be able to be on that commission.
26:12
So, the makeup will change based on whatever the administration
26:16
is and whose term is up and who gets to be appointed by who.
26:21
Okay.
26:21
So it's like- But- … so it's volunteer, but they're appointed.
26:25
Mm-hmm.
26:25
I don't wanna n- name and shame, but what are their, like what are their other jobs?
26:29
Like, do they have experience in- MPA management or a background 'cause like,
26:36
to be honest, like I would like to see somebody on the commission that has
26:41
somebody, and not to say that it's you, but has somebody with your background.
26:44
At least one to have that science and policy background to understand
26:49
the process and to stay as you have for the last 20 years to stay
26:54
into the process of how things have changed with MPA management.
26:59
Things that you've already, mentioned, like how climate change is gonna
27:02
affect social justice and equity, how that's gonna affect and how we approach
27:06
things in a lot of different ways.
27:07
and inclusion in different communities and looking at a very much, approach, and
27:13
I feel like this is happen- I feel like this is happening worldwide, but this is
27:16
kind of disappointing that this is not.
27:17
But looking at, uh, how indigenous communities manage, have traditionally
27:22
managed their land and using that, um, philosophy in how we manage the
27:29
rest of the land as well, because it's very equitable in terms of balancing
27:35
e-ec-economics and environment in terms of how we manage everything.
27:40
So I guess, like, going back to my original question is, what
27:43
are their backgrounds, like professionally of the commissioners?
27:46
What do they tend to be?
27:47
Are they business owners, things like that, or are they scientists?
27:50
It's a, it's a mix.
27:51
Yeah it's important to remember that, I go for the ocean day.
27:55
Um, but they also manage, like, land or have to deal with
27:59
land wildlife issues as well.
28:01
Gotcha.
28:01
You know?
28:02
So-
28:02
Okay.
28:02
'Cause fisheries and game, like it's- Mm-hmm … it's both.
28:04
I gotcha.
28:05
Yeah.
28:06
Uh, so one of the commissioners actually participated in the original
28:10
MPA designation process working for an environmental NGO at the time.
28:15
Okay.
28:15
She now, um, runs one of the master's programs at Scripps Institution
28:20
of Oceanography, so she very much understands the nuance- Gotcha
28:25
and the dynamics of ocean management.
28:28
I think she even wrote a chapter in a book on ocean policy.
28:31
I wish I knew what the book was, but yeah.
28:33
Right.
28:34
Okay.
28:34
She knows her stuff.
28:35
She knows her stuff.
28:35
Um- Okay, good.
28:36
Good
28:37
… and yeah.
28:39
It has a hard job of, trying to correct the record as
28:43
appropriate sitting on the dais.
28:46
one of the other commissioners works for a tribe and represents tribes,
28:54
represent the tribal community, actually started a tribal committee leading or
29:00
that supports the commission's work.
29:03
there's a lobbyist.
29:05
There's a business owner who is serving as the president of the commission right now.
29:11
Okay.
29:11
I would say he's pretty pragmatic and does his due diligence on things.
29:17
And then there is, uh, another professor out of Santa Cruz
29:21
who is on the commission.
29:23
Okay.
29:25
And professor in marine-related items or-
29:29
More on the wildlife side.
29:31
On the wildlife side.
29:31
Of course- Yeah … 'cause it's not all ocean.
29:33
That's right.
29:33
Mm-hmm.
29:33
Okay, that makes sense.
29:34
Yeah.
29:34
Okay.
29:35
Okay.
29:37
Okay, so that's interesting.
29:38
So that's, kind of what we'd expect.
29:40
And it's a bit of a, like a diversity from a professional background.
29:43
Um, and then you do have a representative from the tribal
29:47
committees there that works for a specific tribe, which is- Mm-hmm
29:52
which is good.
29:53
not a tribal member, though, like not a member of the tribe- Correct.
29:56
Yeah … who works for that.
29:57
Okay.
29:58
So this process that's been happening, it still feels like it's just
30:04
Like biased against the people.
30:07
Yeah.
30:07
Right?
30:07
from what you're saying.
30:09
and even though it's asking for people's petitions, you know, it's kinda weird.
30:15
So like, I guess let's go with the petitions that came in.
30:18
Like, do you know how many offhand that came in, in and around or an estimate?
30:22
Like were there- I think it was like- … many?
30:23
… there were 20-something.
30:25
They divided them into two what they called bins.
30:27
Okay.
30:28
And so if some of them were, you know, minor changes like the color
30:32
on the map is hard for people to understand 'cause, you know- Sure
30:36
whatever.
30:37
Stuff like that, they've already decided those, what they thought
30:41
were like the low-hanging fruit and quote-unquote non-controversial.
30:47
and now we're left with, gosh, I can't remember.
30:50
Is it 15 petitions that have what they classified as more
30:54
substantive changes to the network.
30:57
Okay.
30:57
So some of those, I should say, include petitions that were submitted by tribes
31:03
or- Mm-hmm … co-sponsored by tribes.
31:07
and I would have liked to have seen those elevated and prioritized, by the state.
31:13
Um- But they were not.
31:14
Were they just ignored- No … or were they respond, they just- They
31:17
were- … they just said they rejected.
31:18
Actually in the Department of Fish and Wildlife, which has kind of the
31:22
science and enforcement side of this, um, that help inform the commission,
31:27
they even delayed releasing their evaluation of the tribal petitions,
31:33
for, I don't know, some reasons that probably made sense to them at the time.
31:37
But to me it seemed like, oh, we're going to separate this and put
31:41
it through another process, which didn't seem fair or equitable.
31:45
Right.
31:46
Right.
31:46
But yeah.
31:47
Yeah.
31:48
And without telling the reasons why too, or they had reasons, but you're
31:51
just kinda like, "This doesn't make sense. Why- Yeah … separate these
31:54
out?" Unless they're prioritizing them, then I can understand, but-
31:57
Yeah … that
31:58
wasn't the
31:58
case.
31:58
They wanted to put them through the tribal committee to have a conversation
32:03
in that forum, but, you know, a lot of I guess some of the other fishing
32:09
interest groups rallied folks to that meeting, and they said really
32:13
inappropriate things, and it was not a safe space for tribal communities.
32:18
and unfortunately no one from the state condemned that behavior, and
32:22
this was a public meeting for the, tribal sort of the
32:26
discussions of the tribal petition.
32:28
So you would imagine- Mm-hmm … a lot of tribal community members would
32:31
be there who had interest in there.
32:33
But then they also had, is it non-tribal fishing, groups- Correct.
32:38
Yeah … that were there?
32:38
Yeah.
32:39
Okay.
32:39
And so they made it uh, very uncomfortable About them.
32:43
Right.
32:44
They made it about them.
32:45
Yeah.
32:45
Knowing that this was a tribal subject matter.
32:49
were some of the petitions, like, to reduce commercial
32:53
fishing in the areas around them?
32:55
Is that why the fishing groups were so worried?
32:58
Yeah.
32:59
Uh, so there are some tribally sponsored petitions that would create new
33:04
marine protected areas, that would be, tribal take only- Yes … essentially.
33:10
or, some of them include, all shore-based fishing would be allowed
33:15
in order to support some of the, we'll say, more marginalized of the fishing
33:21
community- The kind of folks that go out
33:22
as well as tribes-
33:23
Yeah
33:24
… yeah, as well as tribes that are not federally recognized, 'cause
33:28
that is a weird distinction here in California, where if there are
33:33
tribal-specific rights, it is only for the federally recognized tribe.
33:38
There's no way to discern for the non-federal- Gotcha … federally
33:42
recognized tribal members.
33:44
Gotcha.
33:44
And so these areas that would allow for limited shore-based
33:48
fishing, right, would also support those tribal communities as well.
33:53
So anyway, there's a lot of wonky nuance here.
33:56
Well, yeah.
33:56
I mean, it makes the process really complex for volunteer
34:00
commissioners to go through.
34:01
Yeah.
34:02
but again, like I guess the assumption is that these commissioners would take the
34:07
expertise from a variety of different, like, you know, Fish and Wildlife, as well
34:11
as other organizations, like within the departments, plus nonprofit organizations
34:15
and, fishing groups and stuff, and make the decisions based on that.
34:18
Where, let's be honest, nobody would be happy, but everybody would be satisfied.
34:22
that's the goal of, these types of- Right … processes.
34:25
But when you mentioned, and I kinda wanna get into this a little bit in more
34:29
detail this tribal, I guess committee meeting where you had both like non-tribal
34:37
and tribal members at this meeting.
34:39
I don't wanna go into what was actually said, but for some of the tribal
34:43
members, like Did you speak to them afterwards or have the idea, 'cause
34:47
you were mentioning it, it wasn't safe, like it wasn't a safe space.
34:50
Was it as soon as they spoke, they were shouted at, aggressively?
34:54
'Cause I've seen it happen in Canada, opening up fisheries to, indigenous,
34:59
groups that have not necessarily had it in the past, but they wanted to
35:03
give it because they deserve it as part of our reconciliation here in Canada.
35:07
And, you know, you just see like, like really like aggressive protests,
35:12
and it gets out of hand a lot of the times, turning violent in some cases.
35:17
- was it similar to that, like shouting matches going back and forth,
35:21
potentially like could have been conceived as, fairly aggressive?
35:25
, there were some terrible comments made that came- Yeah … from,
35:29
I think, a place of entitlement,
35:31
right?
35:31
Mm.
35:32
Mm. Um, it was stuff along the line of, like, "You have your reservations.
35:37
Why do you need to, you know- Right … take over the ocean?" invoking
35:43
genocidal policies from the 1800s and saying that they should be used here
35:48
in California in the ocean, right?
35:50
It was- Right … it was bad.
35:52
and it was me and another young woman who works at NRDC who were the
35:58
people that stood up and apologized.
36:00
it was not anyone from the state, which was- But- … really unfortunate.
36:05
And they're sitting there watching this.
36:06
they're- Mm-hmm … seeing this play out, all these comments happening.
36:10
Did they look disgust- did they look like they were like, "Why are people saying
36:14
this?" at least in that kind of way?
36:16
Or, and like, I just…
36:17
Like, I don't understand not saying anything as a government
36:19
representative, but also, like, did they look uncomfortable
36:23
too by what people were saying?
36:24
Like, shock?
36:25
'Cause I'm sure, like, when you hear that in a public comment period, like,
36:28
you're just like, " this is ridiculous.
36:29
How can people do this?"
36:31
Yeah.
36:31
I don't know if, you know, it was just, like, expected and sort of
36:36
normalized that the folks that showed up would take that sort of stance.
36:41
I really, I wish I could say what or why.
36:45
Right.
36:46
but I will say- Yeah, obviously you can't be in their brains, like,
36:47
and yeah … the fact that, a few people did, kind of condemn the
36:51
behavior, I think put them on notice.
36:52
So- Right … I would hope that that is a good lesson learned for moving forward.
36:58
Yeah.
36:59
Yeah, 'cause I mean, like, look, We obviously understand that
37:01
this is not an easy process.
37:02
We understand that people's livelihoods are at hand for, on both sides.
37:06
So there's- Mm-hmm … gonna be some contentious issues.
37:09
But the reason why the process is there is so everybody can have their say, Right
37:13
and be able to feel comfortable to have their say without the backlash
37:17
of somebody saying stuff, as you mentioned, invoking genocidal,
37:23
you know, policies from the 1800s.
37:25
Like, that's disgusting i-in its own right.
37:28
And it makes this whole process almost like, what's the point if people
37:34
aren't gonna be able to speak up 'cause they're afraid to speak up?
37:37
Right.
37:37
and how to- get past this and make it so that people can actually be
37:43
okay with speaking up in a safe spot.
37:45
I don't know if it's separate meetings, I don't know if it's together.
37:49
many of these people are adults.
37:50
I don't understand why they're, treating each other this way.
37:53
but we know it happens obviously, right?
37:55
Like, we can't be ignorant to the fact that this doesn't happen and it's awful.
37:59
but as you said, the commissioners and the committees who are there need to set some
38:04
ground rules in terms of how this happens.
38:07
And if you say something or you think of saying something, just leave, like
38:09
you're gone, so that people- Yeah
38:11
can feel comfortable.
38:12
Um, right?
38:13
And it's just, I don't understand it.
38:15
So I guess, like, uh, you have relationships with the people who
38:20
were at present at that, meeting.
38:22
Obviously, they're frustrated.
38:24
can you talk about how they felt after the meeting?
38:27
Uh, like just from your conversations with them.
38:29
I don't want you- Yeah … to speak for them or, or feel comf- like, I want
38:31
you to feel comfortable just saying-
38:33
Yeah … what you heard.
38:34
I mean, I, I got some text messages from members of various tribal communities
38:39
just saying, "Thank you." Mm-hmm.
38:41
Like
38:41
how horrendous and how awful that was, and they were grateful that someone,
38:45
you know, spoke up and called it out.
38:47
other people, I had, staff at the state say, "Well, no one in the tribal
38:54
community that was in the room seemed bothered by it, and so you had no
38:58
right to make it a big deal." yeah.
39:03
which, like if you have lived your whole life having to tolerate those kinds
39:10
of comments and that behavior, yeah.
39:13
And it not being a safe space, speaking up in the moment isn't gonna feel worthwhile.
39:20
Even reacting.
39:22
Through a lot of conversations, I know a lot of people who are just like, Man,
39:25
that was really racist what this person said," like through a video and things
39:28
like that. and I, see people, that I know of color just be like this is normal, and
39:33
I'm like, "Well, how do you react to it?
39:35
Are you not angry?" He's like, "Yeah," but he's like, "I just don't
39:38
do anything anymore 'cause every time I try and do something, nothing
39:42
happens or I get the backlash."
39:44
Right.
39:44
"I look like the aggressor. I look like the quote-unquote complainer."
39:47
And this is a clear case of that.
39:49
If you react, it's… , you're trying to be the better person.
39:53
You're trying to be safe, too, in this world, you do what you can to survive,
39:59
and sometimes that silence is assumed to be like it's complicit, but it's not.
40:04
And to have people- Yeah … on the commission say, "Well, it didn't look
40:08
like they reacted," and you're like, "Why?
40:10
I don't even know why you would mention it," is just the dumbest thing I've
40:14
ever heard, and just the most ignorant thing that they can go through.
40:18
I don't get… Like, it feels like that entire commission should be going
40:22
through some sort of course or- Yeah
40:26
like strategy of how to be inclusive and how to recognize when people
40:32
are petrified and won't speak up because of what people are saying.
40:37
if they're not going through that or they haven't had a background in that, they
40:40
should not be on, in a position like this.
40:43
Yeah.
40:43
I mean, I will say, some of the commissioners are very
40:46
well aware of how- Right
40:48
problematic a lot of that was.
40:50
Some of this comes from staff and a long history and culture of, you
40:56
know, not understanding or having to understand these different perspectives.
41:02
and so yeah, I think there's a big cultural shift that needs to happen
41:07
to make sure that they're really hearing from, the diversity of
41:12
people in California, 'cause it is a very diverse and, I don't know.
41:17
there are polling numbers that show just how much people love the ocean
41:21
and wanna protect the ocean, and if you sit through a Fish and Game Commission
41:25
meeting, that is not the vibe of- Right … the voices that they're hearing.
41:30
So yeah.
41:31
Do you think this is a consequence of The department's lack of approaching
41:38
it from a scientific as well as a holistic point of view, as we mentioned
41:45
at the beginning of this conversation.
41:47
As you mentioned, like, if they had approached it, like looking at the
41:50
science, looking at where people are fishing, you know, where they're not, or
41:57
what's important to certain groups and what's not important to certain groups.
42:01
I ask this because I remember sitting in on a lecture when I was in my
42:06
graduate school, and, Brian Day, who was the, commissioner at the Great
42:11
Barrier Reef Marine Park, came over.
42:13
He was a good friend of my supervisor's, Dr. John Roth.
42:17
And they had just finished increasing the number of reserves, like no-take
42:22
reserves by 30%, went from 3% to 33%.
42:25
Huge thing, especially in the Great Barrier Reef.
42:27
And he mentioned one of the things that was hugely important was that
42:30
every fisher, commercial fisher had a GPS on its boat, on their boat.
42:37
And they didn't like it at first, but then when they looked at the tracks of
42:41
where they went, everywhere where they recommended to increase the no-take was
42:48
where the boats weren't going anyway he says it avoided a lot of problems
42:54
because we just showed the data.
42:55
This is where you go, this is where we wanna increase.
42:59
Like, they saw opportunity in increasing, and it ended up being
43:01
important areas for these reserves.
43:04
And it's like, not only are we gonna protect these areas where you don't go,
43:07
but it's gonna help with the fish that you're fishing as a spillover effect.
43:11
Right.
43:11
Do you think, like, not presenting that data, I don't even know if they
43:14
have that data, or not looking at that data or if they had presented
43:18
that, that would've potentially helped with some of this backlash?
43:23
Yeah, I don't know.
43:25
and that is the double standard that exists.
43:27
they did these regional meetings, where you could comment on all of the
43:31
petitions, and I think counted it up.
43:33
It was almost, like, 40… Was it 40 hours?
43:36
So 20 public comments at least.
43:37
I forget the number now.
43:38
It was a lot.
43:39
I-
43:39
Yeah
43:40
… gave way too many public comments.
43:42
But my favorite one is I basically took the fishing industry talking points
43:46
and spun it back around because, you know, as someone that commercially
43:50
fishes, I can just say, "I fish there.
43:52
You can't protect it with no data to back it up." Or, like, "This is going
43:56
to negatively impact my business."
43:58
No data to back it up.
43:59
But the amount of science and rigor that has to go into creating that protected
44:04
place, and the amount of compromise that goes into it based on unjustified
44:09
use information that people are sharing, and still not even supporting
44:14
the conservation measure, right?
44:16
it's wild that we have anything protected or good for the environment at all.
44:22
Well, 100%.
44:23
Like, it, it- Yeah … it, I understand you want, you want feedback
44:26
from the different communities.
44:29
But then there's also, you provide the science and the data, whether
44:33
you call it science or not, you provide the data to provide the
44:35
evidence for justifying that area.
44:40
and sometimes the data could be in different forms.
44:42
I say science, but not, the science that I think I would be thinking about data
44:47
points- Sure … and things like that.
44:47
There's traditional knowledge from not only, tribal communities, but
44:51
also from, fishing communities.
44:53
And
44:53
local knowledge from, you know- Hundred percent … commercial fishermen, right?
44:56
That's all-
44:56
Exactly
44:57
… valuable information.
44:59
Yeah.
44:59
Um, but- But it seems like with these petitions, from somebody outside
45:03
looking in, it seems like it causes more conflict by just looking at
45:06
the petitions and not presenting, an assessment at the beginning.
45:11
This is how well everything's going, and this is where we're seeing
45:14
parts where we're seeing it's not as effective as we initially thought.
45:19
And then now we have your petitions, and we see maybe there's some
45:23
agreement in here of, like, it doing well, it not doing well.
45:26
Presenting that data kinda takes away some of that- I don't know, that
45:31
aggressiveness Right … between groups.
45:33
You know what I mean?
45:33
Well, yeah.
45:33
Like, I don't know if it's gonna happen, but I would imagine that's
45:36
if you present the data per first and then include the petitions.
45:40
Well,
45:40
I think the fact that it was public interest organizations that submitted
45:45
petitions based on science, right?
45:48
Yep.
45:48
it politicized or made it seem like that science had some, vendetta, right?
45:55
Yeah.
45:56
Rather than if it came from the state, I think that there
45:58
would've been a level of trust.
46:00
Whether people liked it or not, they would probably still oppose it, but
46:04
at least- Sure … there would've been a level of trust in the science
46:07
that was used and how it was used.
46:10
And to be frank, I'm disappointed in how the Department of Fish and Wildlife
46:14
even interpreted the science that they do have and what felt like a selective
46:21
use of a lot of research, data, and science that has been collected- Right
46:26
over the last decade or more, unfortunately.
46:30
So.
46:30
Yeah.
46:31
I mean,
46:31
like- 'Cause I think they just don't wanna do the thing.
46:33
I think they just wanna have what they have and call it a continued
46:37
win, um, and not go through the effort
46:41
of-
46:41
Yeah.
46:43
Yeah.
46:43
I find it so interesting too, because it's such a large MPA network, and it
46:48
is such a great opportunity to show off what we can do as people, you know- Yeah
46:54
with this data.
46:56
And to have people who just don't seem like they wanna do it properly
47:00
is just beyond disappointing.
47:03
I don't know, maybe you and I are different, but like, imagine, you know,
47:08
I've been in this game for 25-plus years, and I like, I look back at my younger
47:12
self, and if I graduate and I had an opportunity to start collecting data in
47:15
these MPAs and, and looking at the data, I would have so many papers that I would
47:19
wanna write that, you know, where you're just like, "Look at all this cool stuff.
47:23
Like, this is working, but this isn't working, and this is why.
47:25
And then we can do this, and then we talk to this group, and
47:27
they're giving feedback." It seems like such a cool thing to do.
47:33
And then you, hear this like, it just doesn't seem like they wanna do anything.
47:36
And to just to have that persona, you know, that reputation of like,
47:40
" what do you mean you don't wanna have this?" Like,
47:42
there's so much time and money.
47:43
Like, this was a product of the marine spatial planning that was coming from the
47:49
Obama years, you know, when you had these council groups that was put all over the
47:53
US, and this was a product of that, right?
47:57
Like, this was what we came out with this, and it could've been such a cool thing.
48:01
And then to have this of just like, "Yeah, we'll just get petitions and we'll
48:04
just have you fight each other out for it, and whoever wins- Yeah … whoever
48:07
makes the most money out of it, well, then that's what how we'll go forward."
48:11
Yeah.
48:12
Well, okay, so the other side of this, right, is This came on the heels of the
48:18
executive order in the state for 30 by 30.
48:21
Right.
48:21
So to protect 30% of lands and waters.
48:24
And California had this really important piece of that 30 by 30
48:29
first executive order, and then it was passed and codified by the legislature.
48:33
So if that tells you the amount of public support for protecting lands and waters.
48:37
I don't know, right?
48:39
We don't
48:39
see.
48:39
Yeah.
48:40
but it had this, like, human component for equitable access.
48:44
And, if you really wanna look at equitable access, it's not just
48:49
being able to fish wherever you want.
48:51
It's making sure that everyone has access to a healthy, thriving coastal
48:56
area to do whatever they wanna do there.
48:58
Or even not to go to the coast, to sit 100 miles inland and just know that the ocean
49:03
is protected, if that's what you value.
49:04
Like, you have an equal say in what happens.
49:07
Yeah.
49:07
Yeah.
49:08
so we do have this 30 by 30 thing.
49:10
The Department of Fish and Wildlife and the commission tried to decouple whatever
49:15
their decision-making was from 30 by 30, so that was a whole nother thing.
49:19
Interesting.
49:20
Um, but we have another state agency called the Ocean Protection
49:23
Council, and they're sort of the policy lead, under the governor's
49:27
office and then the, what is it?
49:30
California Natural Resources Agency.
49:32
And they did their own evaluation and suite of recommendations
49:36
on all of these petitions.
49:38
They really looked at that environmental justice piece and what the tribes wanted,
49:41
had conversations with those tribal leaders, and actually recommend, advancing
49:47
some of those tribally led petitions and some others with this climate lens.
49:52
Understanding, like, we're in this crazy marine heatwave with a pending El Niño.
49:56
I don't think I remember the water dipping below 60 degrees all winter.
50:01
that is wild here in Southern California.
50:04
Yeah.
50:04
and I'm scared for what this fall is gonna look like- Mm-hmm … in a lot of ways and
50:09
how our health- With this El Niño and s-
50:10
might, may or may not come back, you know?
50:12
Mm-hmm.
50:13
So, I will give it to the Ocean Protection Council.
50:16
They considered some of that.
50:18
So, there is another suite of recommendations that
50:20
give us an opportunity.
50:22
And so hopefully in a month, we'll have some positive news to report,
50:30
Absolutely.
50:31
Now-
50:31
… based on that
50:32
you know, I always like to, as we-- I was coming t-to the end of this conversation.
50:35
You and I could probably talk about this for like three more hours easily.
50:38
but, you know, as we get close to-- You, you mentioned this meeting in October.
50:42
Is there anything, like, the audience can do?
50:44
Uh, we have a lot of California listeners.
50:46
We have a lot of listeners who are- Yeah … who are very interested in MPAs.
50:48
I talk about MPAs all the time here.
50:50
Is there anything that they can do to help with this process to either
50:54
sign petitions or really help in terms of making this process a lot easier,
50:59
whether it's for this month or the next month's meeting or even in the future?
51:04
Yeah, absolutely.
51:05
So Fish ON, our website is actually fishon.us.
51:09
Mm-hmm.
51:09
and on our News and Resources page, there is a form on our latest blog
51:15
post that is, a kind of a pre-filled letter based on our positions.
51:19
Yeah.
51:19
The positions that we took on each of those petitions.
51:22
But you can edit that.
51:23
So if you wanna say, "I support everything that strengthens our network," you can
51:27
make that letter your own, and it goes straight to the Fish and Game Commission
51:31
for their decision-making next month.
51:33
Um, if you wanna show up to that meeting, if you're in California and can get up
51:37
to Sacramento, that's also an option.
51:39
You can DM us on social media and we can connect you.
51:43
I think there might be bus opportunities- Okay … people
51:46
rallying together- Okay … to show up.
51:48
I like
51:48
that.
51:48
Um, and then there are some other organizations, right, if they're
51:52
more aligned with your values and what you want from the ocean.
51:55
NRDC has some resources.
51:57
Um, Environment California and Azul are the ones- Mm-hmm … that sponsored a
52:01
lot of those resilient kelp forest set of petitions or set of- Okay … potential
52:06
new expanded strengthened areas.
52:09
So those are- Yeah … some other organizations you can check
52:11
out if that's more your vibe.
52:13
I love it.
52:14
I love it.
52:14
You know, one thing that I go back to all the time when it comes to
52:17
these types of processes It matters who shows up to these meetings.
52:21
Definitely.
52:22
It really does.
52:22
And we've talked about it, a fishing group that comes in and wants to
52:25
hijack a meeting and make things uncomfortable, they can do that.
52:28
But the opposite can happen as well, where you can show up for your support for the
52:32
environment, for your support of making sure people have their, right to speak and
52:37
they feel safe to have the right to speak.
52:39
I'm not talking about going in and being aggressive.
52:41
I'm talking about going in and supporting the process to make
52:43
sure that people have access to the speech that they want, you know?
52:46
And I think that's important.
52:48
And I remember speaking to, Chad Nelson, who's the CEO of Surfrider, and he was
52:52
talking about how one time, don't know the full details of the… But they were
52:56
gonna build, I think it was like some kind of plant in front of a surf spot.
53:00
And- Oh, was
53:01
it the toll road at Trestles?
53:02
Yes.
53:03
Toll roads.
53:03
In Southern Cal- That's, that's what it was.
53:05
Yeah.
53:05
And he got so many people to come out.
53:08
Like the Surfrider as an- Yeah … organization and their
53:10
partners got so many people that they had to listen to the people.
53:14
And I think this is where, you know, like MPAs are so important.
53:18
So, so important.
53:20
But they're not the sexy thing to do.
53:23
You know what I mean?
53:24
It's not like it's not gonna get you know, millions of clicks on
53:27
social media and stuff like that.
53:28
It's the process that works.
53:30
It's the going to the public meetings, supporting the people who want, to
53:34
have a say, having that say, feeling safe to do so, and also just being
53:38
able to be there and showing your support for the network of MPAs to work
53:42
effectively, I think is super important.
53:44
So, you know, as Anupa said, we'll put the links so that you can get
53:47
access to, whether it's buses or anything like that, or fishon.us.
53:52
We'll put the links in there for the petition I say just show up if you can.
53:55
It's a far drive from Southern California if you're in Southern California or even
53:59
in Northern California, but, get out there as much as you can and the more people we
54:03
have, the better to be able to fight for this network, the proper network, right?
54:06
Yeah.
54:07
Absolutely.
54:07
And if anything too, right?
54:09
It's the long game of making sure that the staff and those decision
54:13
makers know that the ocean belongs to everyone, and everyone deserves
54:17
a say, no matter what you like to do in the ocean or not do in the ocean.
54:22
Absolutely.
54:23
That was said perfectly.
54:24
I absolutely love it.
54:25
Uh, speaking of said perfectly, don't forget, that, uh, we wanna promote your
54:30
podcast- Oh, yes … uh, Fish On Air.
54:33
Uh, you know, speaking of things said perfectly, you can subscribe to it.
54:36
I assume it's on every podcast, app.
54:38
I, I, well, I look at Apple, so, and Spotify, and I've seen them on there.
54:42
Uh, so, so- Yeah … go subscribe to there.
54:43
Listen to, the last episode was on El Nino, uh, and talking about fish.
54:47
Check it out.
54:48
I think it's super important, that we support these podcasts, because this is
54:51
where you get all the good information.
54:53
and so, uh, so yeah.
54:55
Yeah.
54:55
I have to give you a shout-out there too, 'cause you were very
54:58
generous with your time and advice, and helping us get that going, so.
55:01
We need more podcasts- Yeah, thank
55:02
you … out there.
55:02
We need
55:02
more podcasts out
55:03
there.
55:03
We need more
55:05
ocean podcasts.
55:06
Yes.
55:07
Yeah, more ocean podcasts.
55:08
And again, you know, to be honest, like, as we talk about different
55:12
voices, uh, you know, you, you don't get a better opportunity to have a
55:17
say, and have different voices say, is through podcasting and through
55:21
content creation, where you can have that say, uh, on whatever you want.
55:25
and, people, we all need to speak up for our own communities and, everybody
55:31
there's people who listen to me who may not vibe with me and, will vibe with
55:35
you or vibe with both of us, right?
55:36
it's the, that diversity of, of people to speak from all over the
55:41
world, from wherever you are, whatever you look like, you know, whatever
55:45
cultural significance you have.
55:46
Like, it's so important to have that, that diversity.
55:49
So yes, we need more ocean podcasts.
55:52
They need to have one on MPA, I think, I feel like.
55:55
Yeah.
55:55
You know, like a specific one- It's its own topic … just on it.
55:56
It's own topic in itself.
55:58
I think it'd be awesome.
55:59
But Anupa, thank you so much, uh, for coming on.
56:01
Thank you for all the work that you've been doing, and you
56:03
continue to do, with Fish On Us.
56:06
Uh, I say Fish On Us, 'cause that's the, it's fishon.us.
56:09
But, uh, with Fish On.
56:10
I really appreciate everything you've done.
56:12
Bringing your experience, you know, bringing that network together,
56:15
and this unique approach, and it's standing up for others.
56:18
It's a brave thing to do, and it's not- Thank you … uh, that,
56:20
that doesn't come with, with ease.
56:22
I appreciate that from you.
56:24
I have the full respect on what you're able to do and what
56:26
your colleagues are able to do.
56:27
So, thank you so much for coming, and thank you for the work that you do.
56:31
Thank you.
56:31
I really appreciate it.
56:33
You bet.
56:33
Thank you, Anupa, for joining us again on the podcast.
56:36
This is our third time, a hat trick here is what we call it in Canada.
56:40
Uh, and she is on the podcast talking about very important things.
56:42
Like, we talked a lot about how, you know, not using the data and the
56:47
science could be a reason why there's so much conflict in the first place.
56:51
And having, petitions come in and only looking at certain petitions
56:54
in certain ways and others in a different way doesn't seem like
56:58
everybody gets a fair shake, right?
57:00
And I think that's the, the problem with these, processes is that this
57:03
historical need to prioritize certain communities over others gets in the
57:09
way of actually protecting the area.
57:12
Because everybody should have a say.
57:13
If you live along the coast, everybody should have a say, and
57:16
everybody needs to have a say.
57:17
Whether that's taken into account or whether it's valuable to
57:20
the process, doesn't matter.
57:22
People should have a say.
57:23
They're part of a democracy in the U.S., they're part of a democracy in California,
57:26
and they need to have that say.
57:28
And when people are not allowing it to happen for whatever reason, whether
57:32
they're trying to be aggressive with others and intimidate others, or
57:34
you have a commissioner panel who is not allowing for safe, reflection
57:39
and safe, uh, speaking abilities, that gets to be a huge problem.
57:43
So, with that said, uh, you know, check out these links in the show notes.
57:48
There's gonna be links to fishon.us, which is gonna go to the petitions.
57:53
You're also gonna see a link to the podcast that they
57:55
have, called Fish On Air.
57:58
Uh, and of course, you know, there's links to my social media.
58:00
If you have any questions or comments about this MPA
58:03
process, please let me know.
58:05
If you're on Spotify, hit us up with a comment.
58:07
You can tag Anupa, you can tag me.
58:09
Love to have a chance to interact with you 'cause this is the
58:11
beginning of a conversation.
58:12
There are a lot of things that we can do better in this process.
58:15
It's not as if it's a failure.
58:16
It's a way of identifying how we can do better in the future to ensure that people
58:21
have the right to speak, they feel safe to speak, but also to protect these major
58:26
resources that belong to everybody along the California coast and California state.
58:30
So, I wanna thank Anupa for joining us on the podcast.
58:34
I wanna thank Fish On for the work that they do and for standing up for people
58:37
to make sure they have that right of freedom of speech, uh, in a safe way.
58:41
And I wanna thank you for listening to this podcast, because without that, I
58:45
wouldn't be doing this each and every day.
58:47
I do appreciate you, and I do appreciate the work that you do and
58:50
the work that we can do as a community to help out with these processes.
58:53
So if you wanna jump on a bus to Sacramento or you're in the Sacramento
58:57
area or in that area where you can go to these meetings, join the meeting,
59:01
be respectful, make sure people can speak, and you get your voice out there
59:06
as well as part of this community.
59:07
We would love to see that.
59:08
If you do go to that meeting and you wanna talk to me after, I would love to
59:11
hear your experience at that meeting.
59:13
But thank you so much for joining us on today's episode of the How
59:16
to Protect the Ocean podcast.
59:18
I'm your host, Andrew Lewin.
59:19
Have a great day.
59:19
We'll talk to you next time, and happy conservation.