Latest / Pod Therapy / #369: Scammed by Terminally Ill Sister, New Doc Old Meds, Chronic Pain

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#369: Scammed by Terminally Ill Sister, New Doc Old Meds, Chronic Pain · Pod Therapy

0:00
Speaker 1: That I would wear the black face that you were
0:02
Speaker 1: the one that did. It's not that.
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Speaker 2: If it's for military exercises, you're not playing black men,
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Speaker 2: you're playing army man. That's a different thing. You're ignorant.
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Speaker 2: That's what this is. I'm sad that that's explained.
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Speaker 3: That's all we got.
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Speaker 4: This episode has made possible, but ourthity the dark Lord himself,
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Speaker 4: Jim's Fascia.
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Speaker 1: Fawsha, dirty Bee and Picket from fabulous Las Vegas, devanaas
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Speaker 1: is pod Therapy, Real people, real problems, and real therapists.
0:35
Speaker 1: You can submit your questions anonymously pod therapy dot net
0:38
Speaker 1: or email us at pod therapy guys at gmail dot com.
0:41
Speaker 2: Broadcast from the chair, and that's Jim, that's Whitney. I'm Nick.
0:44
Speaker 2: It's time for some pot therapy. Welcome everybody. We are
0:47
Speaker 2: enjoying this year so far. I hope you are as well.
0:50
Speaker 2: I have survived my trip to death Valley. Now they
0:54
Speaker 2: just call it the Valley. Nick Whitney is a vandal. Yep,
0:57
Speaker 2: Whitney admits another.
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Speaker 3: One Beavery before now we're toilet paper and.
1:03
Speaker 2: Uh Nick, Nick's lost all control of his life. I'm
1:08
Speaker 2: doing very well. The entire thing. I'm good I have
1:16
Speaker 2: something of them anyway. Patreon dot com slash therapy if
1:25
Speaker 2: you'd like to enjoy the pre show hangout, get to
1:28
Speaker 2: know us a little bit better, and support a good cause.
1:30
Speaker 4: And this week is a great week to go listen
1:33
Speaker 4: fun week.
1:33
Speaker 2: We got fun gifts from our intern some delicious whiskey
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Speaker 2: and toys and all sorts of fun stuff. So patroon
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Speaker 2: dot com slash therapy, thank you for supporting our show.
1:43
Speaker 2: We've got some great questions and we're leading off today
1:47
Speaker 2: with being scammed by my terminally ill sister from Tina.
1:52
Speaker 2: This doesn't sound complicated at all. Yeah, I feel like
1:55
Speaker 2: we've had seen a few times now.
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Speaker 4: This seems like an easy one.
1:58
Speaker 2: This has come up all right.
1:59
Speaker 4: You.
2:00
Speaker 2: I answered my question back in episode one eighty four
2:02
Speaker 2: about my terminally ill sister who's been quote unquote dying
2:06
Speaker 2: for fourteen years. Now. I remember this one, and I
2:08
Speaker 2: think we've even had another follow up question. I think
2:11
Speaker 2: this might be the third installment on this series. I
2:14
Speaker 2: confessed feeling guilty for wishing she'd just pass, and you
2:17
Speaker 2: gave me the term compassion fatigue, which helped me understand
2:21
Speaker 2: my emotions since then I've been in therapy, though it
2:23
Speaker 2: feels more like comic relief for my therapist than real help.
2:27
Speaker 2: He did, however, suggest my sister's behavior aligns with facetious disorder.
2:32
Speaker 2: She's been manipulating and lying about her condition. While I
2:35
Speaker 2: accepted her living with me, I started setting boundaries, which
2:38
Speaker 2: led her to retaliate with a slander campaign. She painted
2:41
Speaker 2: me as abusive and narcissistic, leaving me to fend off
2:44
Speaker 2: family and friends who believed her lies. Living with her
2:47
Speaker 2: was maddening. She spent money, frivolously, neglected responsibilities, and leaned
2:52
Speaker 2: on me for everything, while claiming to be too sick
2:54
Speaker 2: to function. She'd go disc golfing and partying. The breaking
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Speaker 2: point came after two major incidents involving her dogs and
3:02
Speaker 2: fabricated health crises. I finally had to kick her out
3:05
Speaker 2: after years of sacrifice. But now I'm haunted by guilt
3:08
Speaker 2: and anger, especially at myself for not seeing her manipulation sooner.
3:12
Speaker 2: I prioritized her over my own child and health, and
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Speaker 2: now I'm left untangling the mess she left behind. How
3:19
Speaker 2: do I move forward when my family sees me as
3:22
Speaker 2: the villain and I'm grappling with paranoia about being manipulated again.
3:26
Speaker 2: I love the show and value all your insights, even
3:29
Speaker 2: Gems adding Whitney was a great choice. Well, I'm not
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Speaker 2: a Patreon yet. I'll be toasting you with a glass
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Speaker 2: of whiskey for all your help. Thank you for all
3:37
Speaker 2: you do, Tina. Did that letter sound familiar? Okay? Good?
3:43
Speaker 2: Maybe just because I read them like when we first
3:45
Speaker 2: get them.
3:46
Speaker 1: But we've never done a show this letter right here specifically? Know, Okay,
3:50
Speaker 1: I do remember at first? You remember the first one?
3:53
Speaker 2: Okay?
3:53
Speaker 4: Good?
3:53
Speaker 2: Yes, I think I'm having deja vus. I know.
3:56
Speaker 3: I was just going to say, I think you said
3:57
Speaker 3: facetious disorder. What is it factitious?
4:01
Speaker 2: Okay?
4:01
Speaker 1: I was going to ask what facetious disorder was.
4:05
Speaker 4: I had noted the name facetious disorder. I have a
4:09
Speaker 4: follow up question.
4:10
Speaker 5: About that, Jacob listening, I think Jacobs facetious, it's not.
4:21
Speaker 2: So.
4:21
Speaker 5: Factitious disorder a mental disorder in which a person without
4:25
Speaker 5: a ma lingering motive acts as if they have an
4:27
Speaker 5: illness by deliberately producing, feigning, or exaggerating symptoms purely to
4:32
Speaker 5: attain a patient's role.
4:34
Speaker 2: And you did that all from memory to that that's
4:38
Speaker 2: how you pass the board. Exam's kids get smart, It's done.
4:42
Speaker 3: Not even well, you guys are answering this.
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Speaker 2: I'm literally going through previous episode titles because I feel
4:48
Speaker 2: like I've heard this question. But I'm sure I will.
4:51
Speaker 3: Well, you look that up.
4:54
Speaker 4: So writer, Tina, here's here's the first thing I would do.
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Speaker 4: One thing that I would I would kind of reframe
5:02
Speaker 4: a little bit. Is you're saying that you feel guilty,
5:06
Speaker 4: especially for not seeing the manipulation sooner that Yeah, you could.
5:12
Speaker 4: I totally get that, and you would probably feel right
5:15
Speaker 4: to feel that way. Another way of looking at this
5:18
Speaker 4: is that you gave her another honest chance. Yeah, you
5:21
Speaker 4: know you weren't sure, because I do remember talking about
5:24
Speaker 4: that in episode one eighty four, because I remember everything. No,
5:28
Speaker 4: I actually do kind of remember a little bit about
5:30
Speaker 4: this letter, and I remember kind of it was. It
5:32
Speaker 4: was difficult to kind of answer, you know, because we're like, well,
5:36
Speaker 4: we do want to be compassionate, we do want to,
5:39
Speaker 4: you know, help her out a little bit, but you
5:41
Speaker 4: have to have really solid Yeah, you got to have
5:44
Speaker 4: really solid boundaries. And and I guess for me, you
5:49
Speaker 4: I admire you for having given another chance for trying
5:53
Speaker 4: to work with her. You did your best, you know,
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Speaker 4: I don't think you should really feel guilty about that,
6:01
Speaker 4: you know, for not recognizing it sooner. I think you
6:04
Speaker 4: did recognize it, you know, you just gave her the
6:06
Speaker 4: benefit of doubt and it didn't work out.
6:07
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're just a caring and kind person to say, like,
6:11
Speaker 3: I want to give them that extra chance.
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Speaker 4: And I hope that you've learned through this to not
6:15
Speaker 4: be a caring and kind person because it just doesn't
6:17
Speaker 4: it does not pay off. As you learn that, the
6:21
Speaker 4: better off you'll be.
6:22
Speaker 3: Jacob Amelia, Yeah, exactly.
6:26
Speaker 4: Oh god, tips, I can get behind.
6:30
Speaker 2: That's what she's No.
6:35
Speaker 5: I think I think that's a good point next making,
6:38
Speaker 5: you know, definitely, I've told clients that like ways to
6:42
Speaker 5: kind of, yeah, reframe a situation is I'm a kind
6:45
Speaker 5: of person that I give people those second chances, and
6:49
Speaker 5: we can't control what others do with that.
6:51
Speaker 3: We just have to feel okay with what we do
6:53
Speaker 3: with it.
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Speaker 5: It's kind of like giving oh gosh, I might regretless.
6:57
Speaker 5: It's kind of like giving homeless people money. In my opinion,
7:00
Speaker 5: some people I.
7:02
Speaker 4: Know just filled with hate.
7:06
Speaker 2: What are you gonna do next? Throw toilet paper? At him.
7:09
Speaker 3: They need the toilet paper.
7:12
Speaker 4: You want to kick my dog too?
7:14
Speaker 3: Okay, the dog doesn't need to be cooked.
7:17
Speaker 2: No.
7:17
Speaker 5: I actually I give not like every single time, but
7:21
Speaker 5: I give money to homeless people because I'm just like,
7:23
Speaker 5: I don't care that in some ways, Yeah, selfishly, it
7:26
Speaker 5: makes me feel good. That's the type of person I am.
7:29
Speaker 5: I'm I don't care what they do with it. I
7:30
Speaker 5: don't care if they use it on drugs or what like.
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Speaker 5: That's their prerogative. It's just something I feel like is
7:36
Speaker 5: a value for me, and.
7:38
Speaker 3: So for you.
7:39
Speaker 5: I think reframing it like that, it says more about
7:42
Speaker 5: you that you give those chances and like we can't
7:45
Speaker 5: control what others do with those, but you did set
7:48
Speaker 5: that boundary eventually, and it's like, yeah, you kicked out.
7:52
Speaker 3: That's that takes a lot to set that boundary.
7:55
Speaker 5: Once someone is in your home, that is your sibling
7:57
Speaker 5: that is sick, like I don't know how you get
7:59
Speaker 5: to the point where you ask them to leave.
8:01
Speaker 3: Like that is powerful and very strong.
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Speaker 4: Abumal, and it does definitely paint the picture to everyone
8:07
Speaker 4: else that maybe you're the bad guy. But here's the thing, like,
8:12
Speaker 4: of course you look like the bad guy to the
8:14
Speaker 4: people who aren't involved and are not helping.
8:17
Speaker 5: Yes, go live with them, she can go live with
8:19
Speaker 5: them if they will. Yeah, yeah, arey.
8:23
Speaker 4: I definitely empathize with that, you know, Tina, that's really
8:26
Speaker 4: tough to have that, you know image, I guess from other.
8:31
Speaker 5: People, and your family's not going to understand that, like
8:34
Speaker 5: you only will because you were living with her and
8:38
Speaker 5: had that experience and your feelings are valid and all
8:41
Speaker 5: of that is truthful. And again, just like we can't
8:43
Speaker 5: control your sister, I mean, you can't control your family
8:47
Speaker 5: members either, like what they think of you, and that's
8:50
Speaker 5: and everything doesn't make.
8:51
Speaker 3: It a whole lot easier.
8:52
Speaker 5: But sometimes remembering that I'm not responsible for other people's
8:56
Speaker 5: emotions can be very freeing, at least for some of
8:59
Speaker 5: the time. Not just carrying that weight and guilt around
9:03
Speaker 5: with you like other people think I'm a monster.
9:06
Speaker 2: I feal that one. I think, quick pull the studio,
9:12
Speaker 2: get nodding heads. Yeah, you're pulling very well. I realized
9:16
Speaker 2: why this letter was ringing so many bells. So Tina
9:20
Speaker 2: had written a very extensive letter. It was probably about
9:23
Speaker 2: four or five pages, okay, and there were so many
9:25
Speaker 2: examples of just all the bullshit that the sister has done.
9:30
Speaker 2: And this incident with the dogs was a nightmare where
9:32
Speaker 2: like the dogs like shit all over the place and
9:34
Speaker 2: like it got kind of swept up in the air
9:36
Speaker 2: conditioning and like the whole house just reeked of it.
9:39
Speaker 2: Just like a lot of disrespect, just tons of disrespect,
9:42
Speaker 2: a lot of entitlement, and just Tina getting this place
9:45
Speaker 2: of being like, look, I love you and I want
9:47
Speaker 2: to take care of you, but this is abusive at
9:49
Speaker 2: some point, like you're just taking advantage and then constantly mischaracterizing. Right,
9:53
Speaker 2: So like when Tina tries to push back and establish boundaries,
9:56
Speaker 2: sister goes to family and weaponizes family to turn them
9:59
Speaker 2: back on Tina and then is like, oh no, like
10:02
Speaker 2: you know, you're being terrible Tina, Like you need to
10:03
Speaker 2: be accommoating. And Tina's like I needed somebody needs to
10:06
Speaker 2: stand up to her. And it's like, well, don't you
10:08
Speaker 2: understand she's going through it. It's like she's been going through
10:10
Speaker 2: it for a decade. Like you know, we can these
10:13
Speaker 2: two things do not they are not mutually exclusive, like
10:15
Speaker 2: they can coexist, right, we can have boundaries like you
10:18
Speaker 2: would anywhere, like if you're going to stay at a hotel.
10:21
Speaker 2: You can't just let your dog shit all over the
10:22
Speaker 2: place and then be like, oh, but I'm dying. Yea,
10:25
Speaker 2: this is still a hotel. Like those two things, you're
10:27
Speaker 2: not related, Like if you'd like to stay here every
10:30
Speaker 2: full stop, this is what is required to stay here. So,
10:33
Speaker 2: like Tina, I had taken the letter and kind of
10:35
Speaker 2: condensed it down into like something we could read on
10:38
Speaker 2: the air, And that's why my brain was like, wait
10:39
Speaker 2: a minute, what I've read this And it's like, yes, Jim,
10:41
Speaker 2: you did. You edited it, but anyway, hey, good for you.
10:45
Speaker 2: Yeah for editing. You're welcome and appreciate that.
10:49
Speaker 3: I fear about being manipulated again. That's why it's sounded familiar.
10:59
Speaker 2: I read it. It's something I've already done that counts.
11:05
Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
11:07
Speaker 5: Oh the part where you mentioned like feeling paranoid about
11:11
Speaker 5: being manipulated again the route.
11:14
Speaker 4: Uh.
11:14
Speaker 5: And I don't know I would appreciate any input. Maybe
11:17
Speaker 5: I've just been steering all my clients wrong this whole time. Probably,
11:20
Speaker 5: But this reminds me of when I have clients who
11:23
Speaker 5: were in unhealthy relationships and then they try and start
11:27
Speaker 5: dating again and they're like, how do I trust again?
11:31
Speaker 5: How do I know if someone's telling me the truth?
11:32
Speaker 5: I mean, that person seemed really nice and kind for
11:35
Speaker 5: some time and then turns.
11:37
Speaker 3: Out they were a shithead.
11:38
Speaker 5: So what I usually try and tell them is we
11:42
Speaker 5: think back through some of those situations. And this isn't
11:46
Speaker 5: to victim blame, to say, oh, you should have seen
11:48
Speaker 5: these things, but like, let's look back and try to
11:50
Speaker 5: learn whatever we can from certain things that happened. Were
11:54
Speaker 5: there things you noticed before, and so you're able to
11:56
Speaker 5: go back through from what Jim just said, you know,
11:59
Speaker 5: these are all of the examples of where I felt
12:02
Speaker 5: walked all over, taken advantage of. And that's where we're
12:06
Speaker 5: going to learn moving forward. And when you have those
12:08
Speaker 5: same feelings coming up, that same like pit of your
12:10
Speaker 5: stomach or middle of your chest or you know, this
12:14
Speaker 5: clinching whatever is happening first and we start feeling like, hey,
12:17
Speaker 5: I'm being taken advantage of, that's when you're going to
12:20
Speaker 5: check in and.
12:20
Speaker 3: Say this is familiar. Let me evaluate. Now.
12:24
Speaker 5: It doesn't mean automatically that person's taking an advantage of you,
12:27
Speaker 5: but it gives you a cue to like check in
12:29
Speaker 5: with yourself.
12:30
Speaker 3: So I don't know.
12:31
Speaker 5: It's almost like learning how like, look, I have a
12:34
Speaker 5: I'm more powerful now yes.
12:36
Speaker 2: Well yeah, right, he did nothing wrong. Who remains innocent
12:40
Speaker 2: to me? Thank you no, But I'm with you on that.
12:43
Speaker 2: I like that we're giving ourselves permission to notice the
12:46
Speaker 2: offense and to feel that urge, but also permission to
12:49
Speaker 2: question it a little bit and to come internally and think, Okay,
12:52
Speaker 2: let me just let's put this on trial. Right, let's
12:55
Speaker 2: put the thought because this is also something can go
12:57
Speaker 2: wrong with siblings, right, is like we can have so
13:00
Speaker 2: many times been punched in the gut by this person,
13:03
Speaker 2: and the offenses go all the way back to childhood,
13:05
Speaker 2: and so we are a little bit sensitive to it,
13:08
Speaker 2: and like we read a lot into things. And this
13:10
Speaker 2: is another thing that's really tough. It's just like when
13:12
Speaker 2: you were kids, like the first one to report to
13:14
Speaker 2: mom and then they're like, Mom's like what, like, I
13:16
Speaker 2: didn't do anything. I didn't I didn't touch them, And
13:18
Speaker 2: it's like, yeah, but you were putting your finger in
13:20
Speaker 2: front of my face saying I'm not touching you. It's
13:22
Speaker 2: like you were provoking me. But yeah, letter of the law,
13:24
Speaker 2: you can report like you did nothing but our unique
13:26
Speaker 2: sibling dynamic. I know what the fuck you were doing, right,
13:29
Speaker 2: and you do too.
13:30
Speaker 4: Even hockey has two minutes for instigating yeah.
13:33
Speaker 2: You know, like come on and so like the same
13:38
Speaker 2: thing where very often, but it exists on the yeah
13:43
Speaker 2: and so, Like, I can appreciate that. It's a very complex,
13:47
Speaker 2: interwoven relationship with siblings. Another thing I see a lot
13:50
Speaker 2: in therapy that I think is always fascinating is whenever
13:53
Speaker 2: you see like a diad, like they have this enmeshment,
13:56
Speaker 2: they have this unique relationship and the things they're arguing about,
14:01
Speaker 2: like you can see how the center of the conversation
14:05
Speaker 2: is being pulled way over to one side, and you're
14:09
Speaker 2: sort of like, that's the balance, like the middle ground
14:12
Speaker 2: between like why are you agreeing with all their absurd points.
14:15
Speaker 2: It's like like to put a point on it that
14:18
Speaker 2: be ridiculous but illustrates the idea, Like an abusive spouse, right,
14:22
Speaker 2: and it's like he's hitting her, and then you're like, okay,
14:24
Speaker 2: so clearly the middle ground is don't fucking hit her.
14:28
Speaker 2: But somehow, because they're so used to the abuse and
14:30
Speaker 2: she's put up with it for so long, the middle
14:32
Speaker 2: ground is don't close your fist, Like, Okay, I do
14:35
Speaker 2: understand sometimes you you know, slap me because I'm talking
14:37
Speaker 2: too much, but like you shouldn't not hitting me. And
14:40
Speaker 2: it's like you you want to grab me, Like what
14:41
Speaker 2: the fuck are you talking about? Like, no, we're not
14:43
Speaker 2: joining him way over on that side of this ledger. Ye,
14:47
Speaker 2: he's so far off and wrong land. Yeah, but like
14:49
Speaker 2: you get used to their toxic thinking, yeah, and you're
14:53
Speaker 2: you're always squabbling with them about it, so then you
14:55
Speaker 2: get pulled all the way over there, so that when
14:58
Speaker 2: you start to depart back to normal land, like they're
15:01
Speaker 2: looking at you like, wow, you're demanding so much of me.
15:05
Speaker 2: Not only should I have to not let my dog
15:07
Speaker 2: shit all over the place, Now you want me to
15:09
Speaker 2: pay you rent. Now you want me to not leave
15:11
Speaker 2: the door open whenever I'm drunk, and yeah, exactly. And
15:15
Speaker 2: it's like then you seem like you're being extreme because
15:18
Speaker 2: you're pulling so far away from what's become the norm.
15:20
Speaker 2: But what's become the norm is so ridiculous wonderland bullshit
15:24
Speaker 2: that like you need to go all the way back over. Yeah. No,
15:27
Speaker 2: you've allowed the conversation to float way too far into
15:30
Speaker 2: this like myopic thing. And you'll see this with like
15:33
Speaker 2: enmeshment families or couples or siblings where like they've been
15:38
Speaker 2: putting up with nonsense for so long, or we see
15:40
Speaker 2: this a lot in addictions work too, Nick, where it's
15:42
Speaker 2: like the standards have gotten so low that like, look,
15:46
Speaker 2: I'm just asking you not to drink and drive with
15:48
Speaker 2: the kids in the car, okay, And we're like, or
15:50
Speaker 2: how about not drinking and driving, or I'll do you
15:52
Speaker 2: one better, not drink at all, like seeing as how
15:55
Speaker 2: this person lost their job, and like same thing, it's
15:58
Speaker 2: like I just you know, we drink so much at
16:00
Speaker 2: home and lost his jobs on as third duy, and
16:03
Speaker 2: you know, I just I just wish that he would,
16:05
Speaker 2: you know, not leave his cans all over the place.
16:07
Speaker 2: And it's like how did we let the standard get
16:09
Speaker 2: that far? Like we need to read change this entire conversation.
16:14
Speaker 2: That's a lot of where this letter kind of went
16:16
Speaker 2: so crazy that you're like, dude, you guys have allowed
16:19
Speaker 2: this to drift way off the road, and like it's
16:23
Speaker 2: going to take a big brazen act to pull it back.
16:25
Speaker 2: But now that whenever Tina pulls it back, the family's like, whoa,
16:28
Speaker 2: you're pushing too far. You know, they've been through a lot,
16:31
Speaker 2: and it's like, yes, but I've allowed this to become
16:34
Speaker 2: crazy town. Yeah, like my house is covered in shit.
16:36
Speaker 2: That's not okay.
16:37
Speaker 5: And you really aren't obligated to help your sister at all.
16:40
Speaker 5: You just chose to do that, which is very kind
16:43
Speaker 5: of you. Let me just say to start with, to
16:44
Speaker 5: allow someone into your home with their animals and all that,
16:47
Speaker 5: whether they have a terminal illness or not, that is
16:51
Speaker 5: a huge sacrifice that you made.
16:54
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know, obviously there's all these middle grounds too,
16:57
Speaker 2: where it's like if the animals, you know, they're their animals, right,
17:00
Speaker 2: And like I own a dog that we've had her
17:03
Speaker 2: for over a year. She's still peas, you know, like
17:05
Speaker 2: we're working on it, but it's frustrating. But you can
17:08
Speaker 2: still require the owner to do their part, you know,
17:11
Speaker 2: and to be.
17:11
Speaker 5: Proactive dogs dog Like, when do they become house trained
17:16
Speaker 5: house trained in the first two weeks?
17:18
Speaker 3: I don't know the rules around Yeah, not that long.
17:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, mine's way overdue.
17:23
Speaker 2: And I think that my discipline policy is not working
17:25
Speaker 2: because like we keep having these long heart to heart
17:28
Speaker 2: conversations I don't think she gets it, and like I
17:31
Speaker 2: leave a little encouraging notes and like he.
17:36
Speaker 1: Well, when she peas, yeah, when she peas on the floor,
17:41
Speaker 1: he only gives her a slightly smaller treats everywhere she
17:44
Speaker 1: didn't pee, And I think it's starting to she's getting it.
17:48
Speaker 2: And oh, so like you didn't put one in the
17:50
Speaker 2: piss puddle. Yeah, no, because that was a bad one.
17:53
Speaker 3: Little circles.
17:54
Speaker 1: Yeah, have you considered letting the man of the house
17:56
Speaker 1: maybe try to train the puppy?
17:57
Speaker 2: Maybe my son can do it. Yeah, he has his
18:00
Speaker 2: own notes, but I think he's too stern, you know,
18:02
Speaker 2: just like she's just a baby. You know, she doesn't
18:04
Speaker 2: know the baby to be held. So anyway, writer, don't
18:09
Speaker 2: don't take tips from me on how to establish boundaries.
18:11
Speaker 2: My chihuah was walking all over me. But I do
18:14
Speaker 2: like all the feedback I'm hearing from y'all about like
18:16
Speaker 2: you can't be responsible even for what your family members
18:19
Speaker 2: think of you. And it's tough going against the jury
18:21
Speaker 2: of your peers when it's like they're saying, I can't
18:23
Speaker 2: believe this, and it's just it's really hard for those
18:26
Speaker 2: first when.
18:26
Speaker 5: You did sacrifice so much I know that has got
18:28
Speaker 5: to just I would get under my skin, like, how
18:31
Speaker 5: dare you right?
18:33
Speaker 4: Yeah, So any advice on how to deal with the
18:36
Speaker 4: rest of the family.
18:38
Speaker 2: Gosh, you know, it's so tempting to appeal to them
18:40
Speaker 2: right and be like, let me explain everything. And I
18:44
Speaker 2: understand that, and I think there's room for that, But
18:46
Speaker 2: at some point it doesn't matter, right because you're not
18:50
Speaker 2: gonna out pity story your sister who has this terrible
18:54
Speaker 2: condition and anything you say, she's gonna have a refutation.
18:57
Speaker 2: They weren't there, and you're gonna drive yourself crazy seeking
19:01
Speaker 2: some kind of verdict from the family to have permission
19:04
Speaker 2: to what you always inherently had permission to do, which
19:07
Speaker 2: is to establish boundaries in your home. And at the
19:10
Speaker 2: end of the day, they your sister does not answer
19:13
Speaker 2: to the family. She answers to you, the landlord. That's
19:18
Speaker 2: what it comes down to. And if the family approves
19:21
Speaker 2: or doesn't approve her, if they think you're being too
19:23
Speaker 2: strict or not, fine, maybe I am. Maybe I am
19:26
Speaker 2: too strict. Maybe I have way high standards and higher
19:29
Speaker 2: standards than anybody else in the family thinks is reasonable.
19:31
Speaker 2: But this is my home. I live here and if
19:34
Speaker 2: you would like to share this space and you're down
19:37
Speaker 2: on your luck and you need support, I love you,
19:39
Speaker 2: and the door is open, but it is conditional. And
19:42
Speaker 2: these are my conditions. Meet them, or this is I'm
19:45
Speaker 2: unavailable to host you. That's how it works.
19:48
Speaker 4: Yeah, yep, I mean I'm kind of thinking, you know
19:54
Speaker 4: me personally, I wouldn't really try that hard to try
19:57
Speaker 4: to convince my family.
19:58
Speaker 2: I wouldn't.
19:59
Speaker 4: I just okay, well that's how you see it, and
20:01
Speaker 4: then that's it. And then you know, whoever the next
20:04
Speaker 4: family member is that takes in the sister, That's what
20:07
Speaker 4: I would.
20:07
Speaker 3: Say, let me know when she goes, then I'll give
20:11
Speaker 3: your tips. Yeah.
20:12
Speaker 4: Yeah, And you know there's an old saying too, like
20:14
Speaker 4: never take criticism from someone you wouldn't take advice from.
20:17
Speaker 4: Oh I like that, you know, and so you know,
20:20
Speaker 4: I mean think about that as well.
20:22
Speaker 3: Yeah.
20:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a tough one, you know, and you've been
20:25
Speaker 2: a real champ and you know if you if you,
20:27
Speaker 2: I mean, I did I read you know, the longer
20:29
Speaker 2: version of this, and it's a ship show, my friend,
20:32
Speaker 2: literally unfortunately, and so like there's a lot here. I
20:36
Speaker 2: think that your letter was you know, overwhelmingly right, except
20:40
Speaker 2: the part about adding Whitney was a great choice. Today's
20:43
Speaker 2: actually her life.
20:44
Speaker 3: We can take it back, so.
20:46
Speaker 4: We Oh shit, it's January. We have to do annual reviews.
20:49
Speaker 2: Oh that's oh yeah, yeah, that's right. We got to
20:52
Speaker 2: get those fired up. Yeah yeah, but if you drop
20:55
Speaker 2: all your HR obligations, we'll give you five stars. Anyway,
21:02
Speaker 2: we're gonna take a quick break and when we come back,
21:04
Speaker 2: we're discussing asking a new doctor for old meds. You're
21:08
Speaker 2: listening to Pop Therapy.
21:11
Speaker 4: Today's episode has brought to you by Robert Brownie Junior
21:14
Speaker 4: Men's Kayla Lansbury, Kevin Chamberlain, then Stanley, Adam Hathaway, Dan Martin,
21:18
Speaker 4: Live he Yo, and Andrew Langmead. And if you would
21:21
Speaker 4: like to sponsor the show, become a therapy producer at
21:24
Speaker 4: patreon dot com slash therapy. All right, got some fresh
21:29
Speaker 4: trivia and from em.
21:30
Speaker 2: I watched Twelve Angry Men. Oh yeah, finished, yep, I
21:34
Speaker 2: did watch it. It was fine. Yeah, yeah, I don't.
21:37
Speaker 3: Know about.
21:40
Speaker 2: That. Yeah, I'm doing my part.
21:43
Speaker 4: Okay, the rest of the show by yourself.
21:46
Speaker 3: Yeah, I haven't watched.
21:48
Speaker 2: Citizen Kane yet. Haven't watched City of God. But I'm
21:51
Speaker 2: working my way through. Okay, I'm taking suggestions. I'm doing
21:54
Speaker 2: new things.
21:56
Speaker 3: The calendar the way.
21:57
Speaker 1: I saw Cabaret live last week at the Majestic Repertory
22:01
Speaker 1: Theater here in beautiful Las Vegas, Nevada. I saw their
22:03
Speaker 1: their new production of Cabaret and it may be thinking
22:05
Speaker 1: about it? Oh nice. It made me think about the
22:08
Speaker 1: Fossy movie. They're recommended to you, the Cabaret. Yeah, oh yeah, yeah,
22:13
Speaker 1: the Fossi's Cabaret movie with Liza Minelli.
22:15
Speaker 4: Another great movie, musical, so funny.
22:18
Speaker 5: I had a client this week say they watched that
22:20
Speaker 5: movie for the first time because it's just random. I'm like,
22:23
Speaker 5: I've never watched it, but they're like, oh, it was ironic.
22:26
Speaker 4: With going on.
22:27
Speaker 2: I think it's the best version of that.
22:29
Speaker 3: Story, really do cam.
22:32
Speaker 1: I think it is told better in that movie form
22:34
Speaker 1: than it is on live stage.
22:37
Speaker 4: Jim, what is the most watched TV series finale of
22:42
Speaker 4: all time in the United States? Buzz?
22:44
Speaker 2: Can I if I shoot for two? Okay, let me
22:47
Speaker 2: shoot for two and I'm gonna take Seinfeld.
22:51
Speaker 4: Uh A, good guess all.
22:54
Speaker 2: Now, can Whitney pick up the dribble on this one?
22:57
Speaker 1: Sure, go for a rebound for all I care. Since
23:00
Speaker 1: we're making up the rules right now, right now, it's fun.
23:03
Speaker 2: I don't get options, no if you pick it up
23:05
Speaker 2: off the dribble otherwise, because I want I want you
23:07
Speaker 2: to guess at it, because I want to guess at
23:09
Speaker 2: it without options.
23:09
Speaker 5: To man the most watched TV series of finale Finale Friends.
23:16
Speaker 2: No good guess to really good guess. My guess is
23:19
Speaker 2: mash correct. Yeah, all right, I'll take those two points.
23:26
Speaker 4: Ship is not realize how this game works. In which country?
23:32
Speaker 4: Is it illegal to own just one guinea pig because
23:35
Speaker 4: they are considered social animals?
23:39
Speaker 2: That makes me want to get a second dog. I
23:40
Speaker 2: saw the picture you posted on Poppy of your two
23:43
Speaker 2: dogs bundled up in their little coats, and I was like, fuck, Like,
23:47
Speaker 2: my dog needs a friend. I need to go get her,
23:50
Speaker 2: and maybe that other dog could potty trainer.
23:52
Speaker 3: Oh wait, I can do.
23:53
Speaker 5: I can do options or no options, Switzerland, damn it, Sweet,
24:00
Speaker 5: or Australia.
24:02
Speaker 2: Australia, they probably eat them.
24:03
Speaker 4: So I'll tell you right now, I believe any of
24:05
Speaker 4: those options.
24:06
Speaker 3: I know I'm a little turned now between Sweet, even
24:08
Speaker 3: though Switzerland was my gun. But I guess I'll stick
24:13
Speaker 3: with my gut. Switzerland it is, I would have gotten
24:17
Speaker 3: to Dan Jacob.
24:20
Speaker 4: Yes, what is the only letter not used in the
24:23
Speaker 4: name of any US state?
24:26
Speaker 2: Oh?
24:26
Speaker 5: My god?
24:27
Speaker 2: Okay, let's see. Oh wow A yeah, it's just right out. Yeah,
24:32
Speaker 2: all right, your way through it? Yeah b Bama.
24:37
Speaker 4: Yeah, let's see. So so the lesser used letters we
24:43
Speaker 4: got X. That's in Texas, New Mexico.
24:47
Speaker 2: Why is uh New York? Yeah? Let's see Q. Oh
24:57
Speaker 2: that seems right. I think it might be QUE. Why Q?
25:03
Speaker 2: It is cut? All right?
25:05
Speaker 5: This is there's the because I couldn't think of it,
25:07
Speaker 5: am I Uh?
25:09
Speaker 2: Where was the I just thought of it? No, Arizona.
25:17
Speaker 4: Was like, I am carefully scrolling, so I don't see answers?
25:21
Speaker 2: All right, sure you wait?
25:22
Speaker 4: Does that mean I have four points?
25:23
Speaker 2: It does? All right.
25:26
Speaker 4: What is the coldest temperature ever recorded on Earth? The
25:30
Speaker 4: number in fahrenheit, And I gotta get it exact, and guess.
25:36
Speaker 2: Nail it. I'm gonna have to take options.
25:39
Speaker 4: The coldest imperature recorded in stone.
25:44
Speaker 1: That's right, Okay, you have to do the transfer.
25:53
Speaker 4: Okay, I'm gonna put all these in fahrenheit. Uh A
25:57
Speaker 4: is negative one twenty eight B negative one oh three
26:01
Speaker 4: point five CE negative one forty eight point seven or
26:05
Speaker 4: D negative eighty six point four.
26:08
Speaker 1: So this is lowest temperature anywhere, lowest record.
26:12
Speaker 2: On the planet. Well, it ain't negative eighty something that
26:14
Speaker 2: was like Chicago's low this week.
26:19
Speaker 4: That's got to be with windshill though, I'll say B
26:24
Speaker 4: one oh three point five. All right, yeah, shit, okay,
26:31
Speaker 4: it is uh negative one twenty eight point six. This
26:39
Speaker 4: temperature is recorded in nineteen eighty three at the soviet
26:43
Speaker 4: Via stock station in Antarctica. I hear it gets cold.
26:48
Speaker 1: There, Yeah, specifically at the soviet Via stock station.
26:51
Speaker 3: Yeah, at one.
26:52
Speaker 4: I've okay, so my uh, my sister's friend was in Antarctica,
27:00
Speaker 4: so she did, like yeah, so she was there, she
27:05
Speaker 4: worked there. I would really like to do it. Yeah,
27:08
Speaker 4: for like six months at a time. She's done it,
27:10
Speaker 4: I think twice. And I told my sister to ask
27:14
Speaker 4: her if she'd be a guest on the show because
27:16
Speaker 4: I would love to have her on and like interviewer
27:18
Speaker 4: and cold. Also because Jim doesn't believe that anybody actually
27:25
Speaker 4: lives there, so it would be really.
27:26
Speaker 2: Nobody lives there. Nick they visit there. There are no antarcticans.
27:32
Speaker 2: All right, the penguins, I mean, if you consider them
27:35
Speaker 2: people and I don't, how dare you? Yeah? They and
27:41
Speaker 2: back to the show, all right, So right now, Jacob's
27:44
Speaker 2: in the lead by a lah, Yeah, a commanding lead. Ye,
27:49
Speaker 2: asking new doc for old meds from some scoop. Your
27:53
Speaker 2: show does such important work. Thank you so much for
27:57
Speaker 2: having continued this project for so long and making it
28:00
Speaker 2: the amazing thing it has become. Than you. Quick question,
28:04
Speaker 2: You're welcome about asking my yet you should thank Jacob
28:07
Speaker 2: specifically keeps letting us in.
28:09
Speaker 4: I was saying, you're welcome for all of us.
28:11
Speaker 2: Oh no, it's just true. Quick question about asking my
28:15
Speaker 2: primary care doctor for specific medication. A number of years ago,
28:19
Speaker 2: I took a vacation at a facility in North Dakota.
28:23
Speaker 4: Great.
28:23
Speaker 2: It turned out to be a very rewarding experience. While
28:27
Speaker 2: I was there, I was prescribed to medication for my
28:29
Speaker 2: anxiety called GABA penton. Other medications were considered too strong
28:35
Speaker 2: and made me sleepy, but this calmed my anxiety just
28:38
Speaker 2: enough to allow me to continue to function normally. I've
28:41
Speaker 2: since moved to another state, Oregon, and have a new doctor.
28:45
Speaker 2: I asked him specifically for this medication, but he said
28:48
Speaker 2: he couldn't find this use for the medication in whatever
28:52
Speaker 2: databases he uses. I let it go at the time,
28:55
Speaker 2: but now I think it could be really useful for
28:58
Speaker 2: my current state. Am I wrong for asking for a
29:01
Speaker 2: specific medication like this? Do I need to find a
29:04
Speaker 2: psychiatrist to ask about this option? Keep up the amazing work.
29:09
Speaker 2: Fucking you all in the face some scoop. Aw. Is
29:14
Speaker 2: there harm in asking, uh, you could be shot?
29:18
Speaker 3: There is no harm in asking.
29:21
Speaker 2: Your doctor doesn't have a gun before you?
29:25
Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly the.
29:26
Speaker 1: Alaska of the United States.
29:30
Speaker 5: So gaba pinon my understanding. My little Grammy when she
29:33
Speaker 5: was in her nineties took this for neuropathy. That's like
29:37
Speaker 5: where my mind goes first. And honestly, listening to you
29:40
Speaker 5: read through the letter, I have personally never heard of
29:44
Speaker 5: gabapenton being used for anxiety.
29:47
Speaker 3: So I kind of.
29:48
Speaker 5: Hear what your doctor is saying like a little bit.
29:52
Speaker 5: But again, I'm not a medical professional in that sense.
29:58
Speaker 5: Whenever I worked at the insurance company, looked at medications
30:01
Speaker 5: and I learned a lot about them. I was just
30:04
Speaker 5: exposed to them more so it was like very interesting
30:06
Speaker 5: to see how the psychiatrist that was on our team,
30:10
Speaker 5: our treatment team, would like mention certain meds or watching
30:14
Speaker 5: hospitals utilize these medications because only for in patients days
30:17
Speaker 5: that I was looking clinical for. But my understanding from
30:22
Speaker 5: like what I gathered again very much gleaning info from
30:26
Speaker 5: like information provided around me, was that gabapentin is like
30:32
Speaker 5: more prevalent in people actually.
30:34
Speaker 3: Coming off of substance use. Is that right?
30:38
Speaker 5: And there's even a little bit of a risk of of.
30:43
Speaker 2: Habit form.
30:44
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what I'm trying to say. Yeah,
30:46
Speaker 3: like habit for me, what are your thoughts?
30:47
Speaker 2: So, yeah, gabapentin is not typically prescribed for anxiety. It's
30:51
Speaker 2: an anti convulsant, so it's typically used for like nerve pain,
30:55
Speaker 2: chronic pain, however, rests leg So we saw it a
30:59
Speaker 2: lot like the halfway House gabapentin.
31:01
Speaker 3: Which like withdrawal symptoms, well not so.
31:03
Speaker 2: Much treating withdrawal at that point, at the outpatient stage,
31:06
Speaker 2: but more neuropathy, like a lot of chronic pain.
31:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, anybody with chronic pain because you can't give them
31:13
Speaker 4: any other kind of pain medication.
31:14
Speaker 2: So a lot because once they start to have neurodegenera stuff.
31:19
Speaker 2: So like that was a big part of it. However,
31:21
Speaker 2: gabapentin is used off label for anxiety, so it's not
31:26
Speaker 2: surprising to me that at an impatient facility where they
31:29
Speaker 2: do longer form evaluations they probably had a psychiatrist on
31:32
Speaker 2: staff because it's residential psychiatric. It doesn't surprise me that
31:36
Speaker 2: they got creative and went to gabapentin. It's interesting to
31:40
Speaker 2: me that that all other anti anxiety meds were too sedating,
31:44
Speaker 2: but that's probably because at a at a psychiatric facility,
31:49
Speaker 2: you're their short term, so they're not doing SSRIs or SNRIs,
31:53
Speaker 2: which are considered the first move for most anti anxiety treatment.
31:57
Speaker 2: So what they would have given the writer some scoop,
32:00
Speaker 2: probably benzodiazepines like xanax, or they would have given them
32:04
Speaker 2: antihistamines like hydro hydroxyzine, or they would have given them
32:10
Speaker 2: beta blockers like propranolol, all of which would have been
32:14
Speaker 2: pretty sedating at the time, probably, and that's probably why
32:17
Speaker 2: they decided, let's reach over, and they're probably also giving
32:20
Speaker 2: you other things for sleep and just kind of keeping
32:22
Speaker 2: the whole time they do that a lot of psych
32:25
Speaker 2: words just kind of keep everybody with some fucking benadryla
32:27
Speaker 2: in this system just that's all just quiet down and
32:36
Speaker 2: just to smell this rag. So yeah, so they probably
32:39
Speaker 2: did give you gabapentin off label to try to touch
32:42
Speaker 2: down the anxiety while keeping you alert enough that they could,
32:45
Speaker 2: you know, like, have you engage in sessions now once
32:48
Speaker 2: you move over to Oregon. It sounds like you went
32:51
Speaker 2: to an outpatient doc, right, and so you went to
32:53
Speaker 2: your regular primary doc and your doc is right if
32:56
Speaker 2: you look up gabapentin in the databases, that is not
32:59
Speaker 2: a standard issue use of gabapentin. And so the primary
33:03
Speaker 2: docs are usually not happy to get very creative with psychmets.
33:08
Speaker 2: They're not exceptionally trained on it. They're usually really happy
33:11
Speaker 2: to hand small supplies of a benzodiazepine for anti anxiety,
33:15
Speaker 2: so like a xanax or a klonopin. They're usually happy
33:19
Speaker 2: to hand out an antihistamine like hydroxyzine because it's just
33:23
Speaker 2: an antihistamine. Like they know, it's not that much fun,
33:26
Speaker 2: and so usually they'll give that out a little bit.
33:28
Speaker 2: But they want to give you first line treatment, and
33:31
Speaker 2: so they want to give you SSRIs like prozac or zoloft,
33:35
Speaker 2: or they want to give you like SNRIs things like that,
33:38
Speaker 2: So that's usually what they want to run with. If
33:41
Speaker 2: you want to get back to the gabapentin, you probably
33:44
Speaker 2: are going to have to ask your doctor for a referral,
33:46
Speaker 2: and they're probably going to send you to a psychiatrist
33:48
Speaker 2: and you're gonna have to loop around and start there. However, writer,
33:51
Speaker 2: if you haven't already tried first line treatments like SSRIs
33:55
Speaker 2: or SNRIs, I would really want you to give that
33:58
Speaker 2: a shot. You're at an outpatient level now or in
34:00
Speaker 2: a whole new level of care, I think it'd be
34:02
Speaker 2: great if you could start with that, but you have
34:04
Speaker 2: to keep in mind right or they take like three
34:06
Speaker 2: weeks to a month to work. Now, most outpatient primary
34:09
Speaker 2: prescribers are happy to give you that medicine. I would
34:12
Speaker 2: encourage you to talk to them and see if they're
34:14
Speaker 2: comfortable with that, if that might address your symptoms to
34:16
Speaker 2: start with, go there first and like try that out,
34:20
Speaker 2: do a full course of treatment, and then keep checking
34:22
Speaker 2: with your primary and if you realize like I need
34:24
Speaker 2: something more acute, I need something like when I'm having
34:28
Speaker 2: an anxiety flare up and I want to look at
34:30
Speaker 2: my options. There They're probably going to refer you up
34:33
Speaker 2: to a psychiatrist because I mean, whether they want to
34:35
Speaker 2: do gabapentin or a smaller dose of like a benzo
34:38
Speaker 2: or you know, like a smaller dose of anants his
34:41
Speaker 2: mean or whatever, they're probably going to want the psychiatrist
34:44
Speaker 2: to manage that because that's really more in their wheelhouse. Yeah,
34:48
Speaker 2: and it can be habit forming, though, I mean, it
34:50
Speaker 2: can be contraindicated for somebody with addiction issues. But I don't,
34:54
Speaker 2: I don't know, Like, did you ever see gabapent and
34:56
Speaker 2: get abused. We did have one guy. We had one
34:59
Speaker 2: guy that very cre latively figured out how to like
35:02
Speaker 2: grind up a whole fucking bottle of it. I mean,
35:04
Speaker 2: I had clients snorting coffee. Yeah.
35:10
Speaker 4: If there's a way to get high on a substance,
35:12
Speaker 4: they found it. Yeah, and they would try anything.
35:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's true.
35:15
Speaker 4: If there's not a way to get high on the substance,
35:17
Speaker 4: they still try it out.
35:18
Speaker 3: Yeah.
35:19
Speaker 2: You ever sorted a fire ant? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, so
35:26
Speaker 2: I have seen it once. It was a person that
35:28
Speaker 2: had psychosis and they had gotten off their regular meds
35:31
Speaker 2: for a while, and they just wanted to get high,
35:33
Speaker 2: and so they took all the gabba pen and they
35:35
Speaker 2: were prescribed and started hoarding it and then started it
35:38
Speaker 2: and I don't know what kind of high that gave them,
35:41
Speaker 2: but it was enough that I called an ambulance. So
35:47
Speaker 2: it can be done if if you're so inclined. Writer.
35:50
Speaker 2: But by the way, you know, always I like these
35:53
Speaker 2: kinds of questions because I think it gives us a
35:55
Speaker 2: chance to highlight another big part of the arsenal right,
35:59
Speaker 2: another big part of treatment. And you know, we're not
36:02
Speaker 2: anti meds. We always want you to talk to your doctors.
36:05
Speaker 2: And a lot of times people are discouraged because I think, you, oh, man,
36:07
Speaker 2: you have to go see a psychiatrist or every little thing,
36:09
Speaker 2: and it's like a long wait a lot of times
36:11
Speaker 2: because psychiatry is a smaller, you know, speciality. But this
36:14
Speaker 2: is a good letter because it reminds folks that your
36:16
Speaker 2: primary doctor is usually equipped to help. And they do
36:20
Speaker 2: have like a little database. It's you know, this laptop
36:23
Speaker 2: that basically just says best practices, like double check your
36:26
Speaker 2: work right, make sure you're giving this for the right
36:28
Speaker 2: reasons and that's not contraindicated, and they're usually very happy
36:31
Speaker 2: to give you something. So if you're out there and
36:33
Speaker 2: you're dealing with anxiety or depression and you're like, man,
36:36
Speaker 2: I don't know about getting all the way up to therapy.
36:38
Speaker 2: Maybe that's not accessible. I'm discouraged. I want to go
36:41
Speaker 2: see a psychiatrist. Go to your regular doctor and tell
36:44
Speaker 2: them they are like nine out of ten times they
36:47
Speaker 2: are equipped to get you something, so you can walk
36:49
Speaker 2: out the door with some relief. Yeah, so it's always
36:52
Speaker 2: a good idea to look into that. But thanks for
36:54
Speaker 2: the question. Some scoop. I always like to get into
36:56
Speaker 2: psycho farm. I'm trying to get my students to do
36:58
Speaker 2: a unit on that right now. They're all rolling their.
37:01
Speaker 3: Eyes so hard. I didn't really know. It's kind of
37:03
Speaker 3: like another language to me, where.
37:05
Speaker 5: You can study it all you want. But it really
37:07
Speaker 5: wasn't until I was just every week we're doing the
37:10
Speaker 5: views of people and their's symptoms and meds, and you
37:13
Speaker 5: start really connecting dots.
37:14
Speaker 2: That's when you get I learned the most.
37:16
Speaker 5: Then I was like, really thankful for the boost and
37:18
Speaker 5: med knowledge. Now it's been a while so I have
37:21
Speaker 5: to refresh.
37:22
Speaker 2: But yeah, it's something that a lot of therapists and
37:24
Speaker 2: this is something I really want to change in our field.
37:27
Speaker 2: Most therapists, I would say, are really uncomfortable talking about
37:31
Speaker 2: meds and they don't feel like they're competent in it.
37:33
Speaker 2: They're well versed in it is like a different language
37:35
Speaker 2: to them, and only there's just those of us who
37:38
Speaker 2: have just had occasion to interact with that part of
37:40
Speaker 2: the field or worked in substance abuse. We're working with
37:43
Speaker 2: every fucking thing, you know, and we're shoulder to shoulder
37:46
Speaker 2: with doctors and nurses and we're a big part of
37:48
Speaker 2: the treatment team. Then you get really well versed in
37:50
Speaker 2: all this stuff, and then you might start doing your
37:52
Speaker 2: own research and like trying to understand it better so
37:54
Speaker 2: you can treat your patients, especially if they're polysubstance abusers.
37:57
Speaker 2: But like, it's something that the field by and large
37:59
Speaker 2: does know about, and I really wish it was a
38:01
Speaker 2: core competence. I know, yeah, I wish it was something
38:04
Speaker 2: we could study. So at least with my students, I
38:05
Speaker 2: try to push him through those hurdles, which they don't
38:08
Speaker 2: appreciate becuse they're like, dude, this isn't technically far of
38:10
Speaker 2: the textbook. I'm like, we're off fucking screen doing it,
38:13
Speaker 2: doing it live. Anyway, we're gonna take it.
38:15
Speaker 4: You get hired to be a professor here. No, shut
38:17
Speaker 4: the fuck up.
38:18
Speaker 2: The fuck We're gonna take a quick break and when
38:21
Speaker 2: we come back, we are discussing chronic pain. You're listening
38:25
Speaker 2: to Pod Therapy episode.
38:31
Speaker 4: By Robert Brownie Junior Men's Kaitlin Lansbury, Kevin Chamberlain, Ben Stanley,
38:36
Speaker 4: Adam Hathaway, Dan Martin, lid Hey Yo and Andrew Langmead.
38:40
Speaker 4: And if you would like to sponsor the show, become
38:42
Speaker 4: a therap producer Patreon dot com, slash Therapy im.
38:50
Speaker 2: Jimmithy.
38:51
Speaker 4: Let's go, which animal has fingerprints so similar to humans
38:58
Speaker 4: that they can confuse crimes seen Investigators's.
39:02
Speaker 2: Final answer, no plat a pie. I'm gonna stick with Koala's,
39:09
Speaker 2: but I appreciate the support. Give me two points, you
39:12
Speaker 2: bitch alligators. Fuck. I don't even know they had fingers.
39:18
Speaker 3: What was so confident? I was like, Damn, I've never
39:27
Speaker 3: heard those.
39:28
Speaker 4: Their prints are nearly indistinguishable from human fingerprints. Under a
39:32
Speaker 4: microscope to learn something murdering.
39:35
Speaker 1: There have been instances of crime scene investigators collecting fingerprints,
39:40
Speaker 1: only later to realize that they were Koala fingerprints.
39:43
Speaker 3: They were in the murdered out of base.
39:45
Speaker 4: They did, probably not in the US.
39:47
Speaker 2: I don't think it was at the US.
39:49
Speaker 1: Also, I don't know for sure that the sentence I
39:52
Speaker 1: just said is true, but I believe it is.
39:56
Speaker 2: Have chlamydia or something too. I think like some kind
39:58
Speaker 2: of weird epidemic.
39:59
Speaker 3: Yeah, spread a lot of information.
40:02
Speaker 2: We're gonna get a letter if you learned a letter
40:05
Speaker 2: from like the a c l U of Koalas, Like, hey,
40:07
Speaker 2: that's enough.
40:09
Speaker 4: Why do koalas it auto fills with have Chlamythe.
40:14
Speaker 1: The more you know always was likely call chamyde banging
40:19
Speaker 1: it out that were brought to Australia by European settlers
40:21
Speaker 1: in the early eighteen hundreds.
40:24
Speaker 4: Huh. The so, most if not all koalas have do
40:28
Speaker 4: have chlamydia.
40:29
Speaker 2: There it is. See they get around suspects.
40:33
Speaker 1: They call it exposure to the feces of infected sheep
40:35
Speaker 1: and cattle.
40:36
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's what it was. Fucking the cows.
40:39
Speaker 2: The cows. People keep pinting on people because of the
40:44
Speaker 2: fucking fingerprints the cows.
40:46
Speaker 1: Chef is so tender tenderized regularly for years.
40:54
Speaker 4: All right, Emma, your next assignment for trivia, We want
40:57
Speaker 4: STIs and animals.
40:58
Speaker 2: Oh that's topic.
41:00
Speaker 4: Well, Koalas is kind of my main bit of knowledge there.
41:04
Speaker 4: It's just allright, Whitney.
41:06
Speaker 3: My Google search is like very odd before.
41:10
Speaker 2: Oh my Google search is fucked.
41:13
Speaker 4: My Google search.
41:13
Speaker 1: And like the other other week, we were out of
41:15
Speaker 1: town and we were in the rental car and I
41:17
Speaker 1: put my phone in and just had it play like
41:20
Speaker 1: my curated radio station that it creates for me.
41:23
Speaker 4: And Jay said the car with me, She's like, what
41:25
Speaker 4: the fuck are these songs coming out?
41:27
Speaker 1: I don't know.
41:28
Speaker 4: I don't know what inspired.
41:31
Speaker 1: It's like all the crazy ship that I look up
41:33
Speaker 1: all the time and all the crazy music that I
41:35
Speaker 1: play all the time.
41:37
Speaker 2: I love it.
41:37
Speaker 4: It just it just all follows me around.
41:40
Speaker 1: If I was smart and I have, i'd have a
41:41
Speaker 1: professional accountant a personal one.
41:43
Speaker 4: But I don't.
41:44
Speaker 2: You got to pay to get that thing.
41:45
Speaker 4: I never said I was smart, Whitney. What is the
41:49
Speaker 4: only food that never spoils?
41:50
Speaker 3: Buzz twinkies? I need options.
41:57
Speaker 2: Be there, twinkies honey right salt or vinegar twinkies?
42:04
Speaker 3: Uh honey correct.
42:07
Speaker 4: Archaeologists have found edible honey edibles and ancient Egyptian tombs.
42:14
Speaker 2: Wow after you said, that's all right, Jacob.
42:19
Speaker 4: What civilization was the first to use a calendar with
42:23
Speaker 4: three hundred and sixty five days?
42:25
Speaker 2: Oh? Shoot from the hip, dude, to do it?
42:28
Speaker 1: I think?
42:31
Speaker 4: Is it mayant to be?
42:33
Speaker 2: That's where I don't hold on, hold on. I think
42:36
Speaker 2: I want options. I think I want options, all right?
42:39
Speaker 4: Your options are Romans, Egyptians, Babylonians.
42:44
Speaker 3: There, Romans, I.
42:48
Speaker 2: Mean it might be Romans, Romans, Egyptians. Uh, Babylonians. Oh,
42:54
Speaker 2: fucking Babylonians. They were a lot of stuff. They were
42:57
Speaker 2: ahead they how are you? That's a big one. That's
43:00
Speaker 2: that's something that you're more into. Architecture, I think is
43:04
Speaker 2: the bigger take.
43:05
Speaker 1: I think they had a lot of math though, because
43:06
Speaker 1: they did a lot of math to figure out the geometry.
43:08
Speaker 4: They studied the geometry of the of the stars and everything.
43:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, you might be onto something there. Yeah, I've talked
43:14
Speaker 2: myself into it. I'll go Babylonian. You dull me, it's
43:18
Speaker 2: maya No what they're both wrong?
43:21
Speaker 4: Damn? Is it Romans? No, Egyptians?
43:23
Speaker 2: It is Egyptians? Really all right?
43:26
Speaker 1: Which animal can complete for up to three years at
43:29
Speaker 1: a time? Oh my, your mom, stay down, Mom, well,
43:36
Speaker 1: she will down an a long time to sleep.
43:45
Speaker 4: I know there are instances this can't be the answer
43:48
Speaker 4: to the question.
43:49
Speaker 1: Uh, but there are instances where they have found bacteria
43:53
Speaker 1: frozen in ice that has been like frozen in ice
43:56
Speaker 1: four thousands of years.
43:57
Speaker 2: Okay, if you're right.
43:58
Speaker 4: That was not helpful and it came out of the ie.
44:00
Speaker 1: This is just an anecdote that has nothing to do
44:01
Speaker 1: with the question because it said three years.
44:03
Speaker 4: I know this is thousands of years.
44:04
Speaker 2: So it's not the answer if you shoot from that,
44:07
Speaker 2: but they came out of the ice and they were
44:09
Speaker 2: able to like get it back to Yeah, if you
44:14
Speaker 2: shoot from the hip, I want to also take a
44:16
Speaker 2: shot at it. I'm not going to shoot from.
44:20
Speaker 1: Take a shot then, No, you can only take a
44:22
Speaker 1: shot if but if you miss, it's minus five points.
44:26
Speaker 2: You can take a shot and get those five points.
44:30
Speaker 2: I don't even have you get There's gotta be some
44:33
Speaker 2: benefits of me miss.
44:35
Speaker 4: You just get to answer the question.
44:36
Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna take options. It's bear, snail, frog, or turtle.
44:40
Speaker 1: The one I was going to pick is not on there.
44:42
Speaker 4: What were you going to pick?
44:43
Speaker 2: Tartar grade.
44:47
Speaker 4: I think that's up there with like bacteria animals.
44:51
Speaker 2: I believe bacteria are also technically animals.
44:53
Speaker 4: I think they're in the animal. I'm gonna snail that
44:58
Speaker 4: I would have gone frogs not going to be bear, right,
45:02
Speaker 4: Bear is too easy.
45:03
Speaker 2: I think it's it's sails.
45:05
Speaker 4: Turtle was the other one. I was thinking, because they
45:07
Speaker 4: get there they're so old.
45:08
Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know if they sleep a lot though, Yeah,
45:12
Speaker 1: not for like the long periods of time.
45:13
Speaker 2: Nails can live for three years.
45:15
Speaker 4: My next door neighbor. Have I talked about my neighbor's tortoise?
45:18
Speaker 2: You have not? Yeah?
45:19
Speaker 4: My next door neighbor has a tortoise that occasionally gets out.
45:23
Speaker 2: Very rare. Yeah, but hard to catch deerise.
45:27
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't try to catch him.
45:29
Speaker 1: But the other the other week, I came out of
45:30
Speaker 1: my out of my house and uh, the tortoise was
45:33
Speaker 1: underneath my truck.
45:34
Speaker 4: Nice, just hang it out.
45:37
Speaker 2: How big is this tortoise?
45:39
Speaker 4: Is the size of a small Kia.
45:43
Speaker 2: Under your truck?
45:45
Speaker 4: Truck?
45:47
Speaker 2: I mean he's what what's that about?
45:48
Speaker 4: Two ft across.
45:51
Speaker 2: It? Like a tortoise.
45:53
Speaker 4: I was trying to find a picture.
45:55
Speaker 2: To show you.
45:55
Speaker 4: I was walking through downtown Summerlin and somebody had their tortoise.
45:59
Speaker 3: Oh yeah, yeah, he's a poker player.
46:01
Speaker 5: I think he has the whole Instagram account for his tortoise,
46:05
Speaker 5: if it's the one I'm thinking of.
46:06
Speaker 3: He takes someone. Yeah, and I think he.
46:09
Speaker 2: Lives in Yeah, that makes sense. Vegas. Vegas is lovely.
46:14
Speaker 3: Bring him up.
46:15
Speaker 2: I went to a tortoise farm once. Oh that's a
46:17
Speaker 2: big tour.
46:18
Speaker 4: Yeah, look at him.
46:21
Speaker 1: He's a big guy. He's like I think he's thirty
46:24
Speaker 1: years old. Okay, what did you look like before you
46:27
Speaker 1: ran him? A?
46:27
Speaker 2: Yeah?
46:28
Speaker 4: Yeah, do you have any pre pictures?
46:33
Speaker 2: All right, so I'm in the lead.
46:35
Speaker 1: He was visibly under my truck. He was never in
46:36
Speaker 1: any danger to all of you tortoise people out there.
46:40
Speaker 2: No tortoises were harmed in the making up pot there.
46:42
Speaker 1: Apparently it was his uh mating season. He was on
46:45
Speaker 1: the hot so the neighbor said, yeah, he was out
46:48
Speaker 1: and about. He got out of the fence looking for
46:51
Speaker 1: that the way out and got him and the neighbor
46:55
Speaker 1: came out and collected him and put him back in
46:56
Speaker 1: the backyard.
46:59
Speaker 2: He was on the talk about once a year. Wow,
47:05
Speaker 2: that's called wild man. Can't keep him down. Last question
47:08
Speaker 2: of the show is about chronic pain from Pennsylvania Scoop
47:14
Speaker 2: hi pod Therapy. I have a question. I'm a former
47:17
Speaker 2: construction worker and a former oil field worker. I struggled
47:21
Speaker 2: for a long time, effectively living in my car for
47:24
Speaker 2: a time while working some of the worst jobs on Earth.
47:27
Speaker 2: I won't bore you with the details, but thank you.
47:30
Speaker 2: Oil field work is wildly dangerous. I'm thirty eight years old,
47:35
Speaker 2: with two kids and a wonderful wife. In the last
47:38
Speaker 2: eighteen months, I've had three spinal surgeries, all likely a
47:44
Speaker 2: long term result from those jobs. My last surgery was
47:48
Speaker 2: a spinal fusion. It is a terrible thing to experience.
47:52
Speaker 2: I felt a lot of relief I can walk better
47:56
Speaker 2: and be a better father and partner. I still experience
47:59
Speaker 2: chronic pain. It's a lot. I have difficulty sleeping, difficulty
48:03
Speaker 2: doing a lot of routine tasks, constant muscle spasms, constant pain.
48:08
Speaker 2: I wake up nightly with sharp pain. I'm thirty eight.
48:11
Speaker 2: I can't tie my shoes, I can't effectively shower alone.
48:16
Speaker 2: I can't put on socks. A lot of things are
48:18
Speaker 2: a struggle. I take narcotics and have been for the
48:21
Speaker 2: last thirteen months. It is low level taken at night
48:25
Speaker 2: and morning. It is not misused. My wife struggles with
48:28
Speaker 2: me still taking pain medication despite the fact that my
48:32
Speaker 2: neurosurgeon and I both find myself in this terrible position.
48:36
Speaker 2: It's become a contentious thing. She thinks that my doctors
48:39
Speaker 2: are wildly irresponsible while I'm still struggling. I'm seeing interventional
48:44
Speaker 2: pain management to do anything, but I'm stuck in a
48:48
Speaker 2: chronic pain situation. Any ideas on how to navigate my
48:52
Speaker 2: situation with my spouse. I know she worries, but it's
48:56
Speaker 2: a struggle on all sides. Signed Cody the Pennsylvania Goop.
49:00
Speaker 2: M It takes me back, I know, yeah, good lord.
49:05
Speaker 4: So we've talked about this before in the show a bit.
49:07
Speaker 4: Jim and I both worked at a clinic that basically
49:11
Speaker 4: specialized in treatment of opio uice disorder for people experiencing
49:16
Speaker 4: chronic pain.
49:17
Speaker 2: I don't know it was called Chippendale's Yay Chris Farley and.
49:27
Speaker 4: Every night or we were oil boys. You think you had.
49:35
Speaker 2: Lorenz Are snapping at you. You don't know, no spinal
49:41
Speaker 2: taps every night.
49:42
Speaker 4: But he so a book I would recommend. I'll recommend our.
49:49
Speaker 1: Old boy the exon Valdis over here. Check out A
49:54
Speaker 1: Day Without Pain by doctor mel poll p o h L.
49:59
Speaker 2: Good book. And there's a workbook that goes with it.
50:01
Speaker 4: Yes, yes, yes, there's a workbook that goes with it.
50:04
Speaker 4: I think it'd be really good. There's a couple of
50:05
Speaker 4: things in here that I as you're talking, I can
50:08
Speaker 4: already hear doctor Pohle and like some of the things
50:10
Speaker 4: that he would say, you know, and one of the things,
50:13
Speaker 4: you know, with the treatment, with the use of narcotics
50:16
Speaker 4: as a treatment for chronic pain, the big issue with
50:20
Speaker 4: that is, like you have to ask, what is the
50:21
Speaker 4: long term plan here?
50:23
Speaker 2: Right?
50:24
Speaker 4: Because inevitably there will be tolerance, which means that you're
50:30
Speaker 4: going to have to increase that dose, which you will
50:33
Speaker 4: then become tolerant to, which means you're going to have
50:36
Speaker 4: to increase that dose. Now that may be that may
50:39
Speaker 4: take several years to achieve, even if you're taking it responsibly,
50:44
Speaker 4: but inevitably it's at some degree it's going to happen,
50:47
Speaker 4: maybe slowly, maybe quickly. But you know, what is the
50:50
Speaker 4: long term plan with using opiates? As you said, narcotics,
50:55
Speaker 4: I assume that's going to be an opiate. What is
50:58
Speaker 4: the long term plan with that even if taking response posibly,
51:02
Speaker 4: and that's maybe a good conversation to have with your
51:04
Speaker 4: doctor about that. The other thing that I'm thinking about
51:07
Speaker 4: here too, to other points that I would encourage you
51:09
Speaker 4: to take a look at. One would actually be, you know,
51:13
Speaker 4: to get into therapy because everybody drink all right, fine,
51:25
Speaker 4: But the issue.
51:26
Speaker 2: With this the that's the record show we did all
51:28
Speaker 2: take of our interns whiskey, Yeah, I'm talking.
51:32
Speaker 4: I'll get in a minute, I'll take two later. But
51:40
Speaker 4: the issue with this too is like, chronic pain isn't
51:43
Speaker 4: just the physical pain alone. There's the emotional pain that
51:46
Speaker 4: comes along with it. And I think that's where therapy
51:49
Speaker 4: can help deal with all of that. It's not just
51:52
Speaker 4: the issue that you're having chronic pain in your life.
51:55
Speaker 4: It's also the grief of having lost aspects of your life,
51:59
Speaker 4: you know, and that I think really needs to be
52:01
Speaker 4: dealt with because at a loss, absolutely yeah, and it
52:05
Speaker 4: can you know, by dealing with that, you can it
52:07
Speaker 4: will help deal with help you deal with the physical pain.
52:12
Speaker 4: The third piece that I would talk about here would
52:15
Speaker 4: be exercise doesn't have to be anything intense, but a
52:20
Speaker 4: regular routine of movement stretching. Things like that can be
52:25
Speaker 4: incredibly helpful. One of the things that you know, doctor
52:29
Speaker 4: Paul always would talk to us about is like, you know,
52:32
Speaker 4: he'd use the example like, if I can only raise
52:34
Speaker 4: my arm up to this level, you know, shoulder height,
52:38
Speaker 4: and it starts to hurt, then what am I teaching myself?
52:41
Speaker 4: I'm teaching myself not to do that. So now I'm
52:43
Speaker 4: only going to raise it up to my elbow. Okay,
52:46
Speaker 4: Well now it's going to start to hurt at my elbow.
52:48
Speaker 4: So now my brain tells, okay, then don't do that.
52:50
Speaker 4: So now I'm just gonna So all you're doing is
52:53
Speaker 4: you're just slowly decreasing your range of motion over a
52:56
Speaker 4: period of time. And so it's one of those things
52:59
Speaker 4: where you kind of have to understand and change your expectation. Yep,
53:03
Speaker 4: this is gonna feel uncomfortable, this is gonna hurt a
53:05
Speaker 4: little bit. But we still have to kind of push
53:08
Speaker 4: ourselves to increase our range of motion as much as
53:12
Speaker 4: we possibly can, because if you don't use it, you
53:14
Speaker 4: will lose it.
53:15
Speaker 2: No, everything you just said is spot on. And there
53:18
Speaker 2: man taught us so much, I mean, and he had
53:20
Speaker 2: so many great.
53:21
Speaker 4: Notes and please don't let him know that we're doing this.
53:23
Speaker 2: No, no, don't even talk.
53:25
Speaker 4: Biggest secret.
53:26
Speaker 2: I don't want him to know that we do this.
53:27
Speaker 2: For years, people have said like.
53:30
Speaker 4: No, no, no, no, we have a lot of respect.
53:34
Speaker 4: I really don't want him to even know.
53:36
Speaker 2: If he never remembers me, that would actually be great.
53:41
Speaker 6: I would like to not exist. No, Jim, yeah, I
53:45
Speaker 6: know I told you the story that I offended him, right, yeah. Fuck,
53:49
Speaker 6: I bought him a pen. It's like I tried to apologize.
53:53
Speaker 6: I got him a p engraved.
53:55
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I.
53:59
Speaker 1: Know you are.
54:01
Speaker 4: Nobody else brought it up.
54:02
Speaker 3: Christ Jacob and I are get.
54:05
Speaker 2: I leave the first rehab, I'm working at West Care.
54:07
Speaker 2: I get this job with doctor Pohl and it's mostly
54:11
Speaker 2: to do this other half way house program, but they
54:13
Speaker 2: also let me go to the pain program and help there,
54:15
Speaker 2: so I'm there. I'm kind of a new therapist. I'm
54:17
Speaker 2: trying to like stand out and he does this staffing
54:20
Speaker 2: every morning and it's like holding court, Like he just
54:23
Speaker 2: fills a room with therapist, doctors, nurses, and he goes
54:26
Speaker 2: over every patient through the census. He's very hands on,
54:30
Speaker 2: very intricate, and I'm trying to like seem intelligent, which
54:36
Speaker 2: is a very heavy lift already. Yeah, and then and
54:39
Speaker 2: then here I am surrounded by unrealnesses. And so here
54:43
Speaker 2: we are and we're going around the room, we're talking
54:45
Speaker 2: on cases, and we're all holding these little handouts with
54:48
Speaker 2: the patient's names and just data and stuff like that.
54:52
Speaker 2: And so he's like, Okay, we're wrapping up and we're
54:54
Speaker 2: at the end, and he goes the samebody, you know,
54:56
Speaker 2: have any last comments before we wrap up, And I
54:59
Speaker 2: decide to like God again, so fucking naive, Like I'm
55:03
Speaker 2: fresh off of like my first HIPPA training, and I'm like,
55:07
Speaker 2: I think that this rounds paper is a hip of
55:09
Speaker 2: violation because it has all the identifying information of the
55:12
Speaker 2: patients on here and we could just walk out with this.
55:15
Speaker 2: Did you announce that at the meeting? Yes? And this is.
55:22
Speaker 3: Basically saying Jacob, just what I'm thinking. Jacob listening to.
55:27
Speaker 5: The story, like, I can't imagine, I can't imagine saying
55:31
Speaker 5: a meeting nothing nothing.
55:33
Speaker 2: So I'm mirror more than two people, like the medical
55:36
Speaker 2: director in his own meeting saying, I think but he's
55:41
Speaker 2: regulations that you're you're federally offending. And so he just
55:46
Speaker 2: be mad at me in disbelief. Oh first day, this
55:49
Speaker 2: was first day, first meeting, brand new eight a m.
55:53
Speaker 2: And so as I'm saying this, he is just staring
55:56
Speaker 2: at me in disbelief. Mel Poll is not a subtle man,
56:00
Speaker 2: and he will fucking fricka see you. He does not care, no,
56:04
Speaker 2: And so he is staring at me because he's if
56:06
Speaker 2: it was anybody else, he would have just shit all
56:09
Speaker 2: over that person and humiliated them. But he's staring at
56:12
Speaker 2: me because he doesn't know what to do, because he
56:16
Speaker 2: doesn't know who the fuck I am. I'm just some
56:18
Speaker 2: random kid, and he's like thinking about just doing a
56:22
Speaker 2: public execution of me in front of everybody. But then
56:25
Speaker 2: you see him just think better of it. He heard
56:28
Speaker 2: about it, and so you know, he just like decides
56:33
Speaker 2: to Like he looks over at this other guys, the
56:35
Speaker 2: director of operations, who is technically the guy who just
56:38
Speaker 2: hired me, and that guy's looking at him with pleading
56:42
Speaker 2: eyes like let the baby go in, let him go,
56:48
Speaker 2: and so Mel just kind of like shrake shakes his
56:50
Speaker 2: head and he goes all right, any other questions and
56:57
Speaker 2: nobody's making eye contact. Everybody's looking down like please just
57:00
Speaker 2: let it end, and he's like, all right, great, dismissed,
57:03
Speaker 2: I'll see you all tomorrow and just gets up in
57:04
Speaker 2: the leaves and my boss just comes running over to
57:07
Speaker 2: me and he's like, right now and the back and
57:13
Speaker 2: our boss, George, at that moment, did you think for it?
57:17
Speaker 2: Did you think it all that you were about to
57:18
Speaker 2: get accommodation? I thought no. I thought they're not even
57:22
Speaker 2: gonna bother finishing my fucking paperwork, Like, there's no bad
57:27
Speaker 2: We're not going to the intake. Yeah, And so my
57:30
Speaker 2: boss pulls me in and he's like, what were you thinking?
57:34
Speaker 2: And I'm like that I was being helpful. He's like,
57:36
Speaker 2: I want to get this clear. You think that all
57:38
Speaker 2: of us have been violating hippa. You think that man
57:41
Speaker 2: has been violating hippa for the last fifteen years since.
57:44
Speaker 4: He founded this clinic.
57:46
Speaker 2: You think that's what's been going on and he needed
57:48
Speaker 2: your fucking idiot ass to come in here with an
57:51
Speaker 2: intern license and tell us. I'm like, yes, I told it,
57:55
Speaker 2: and he's like no. So anyway, I'm so humiliated. I
58:00
Speaker 2: go and I buy mel and really nice pen and
58:04
Speaker 2: I get it engraved with his name on it because
58:07
Speaker 2: I was so desperate to find.
58:09
Speaker 4: To fix this.
58:12
Speaker 7: The next day left end of the tangement. You can't
58:16
Speaker 7: get hold your face. Man, it was soberwhelmed. I didn't
58:24
Speaker 7: know what to do, panised. I just I was so
58:27
Speaker 7: scared you.
58:30
Speaker 4: Are a dumb person.
58:35
Speaker 2: So it was a really nice pen. It was like,
58:40
Speaker 2: what did he say when I put it in?
58:41
Speaker 4: An I put it in a little I mean, at
58:46
Speaker 4: this point he wasn't allowed to have contact with.
58:51
Speaker 2: I put it in a gift bag.
58:53
Speaker 4: He's like, I better not write anybody his health data
58:55
Speaker 4: with this.
58:57
Speaker 2: Just to help me sign the AFFI David, So I
59:00
Speaker 2: put in a gift bag with a little note that
59:02
Speaker 2: says it's such an honor to get to work with you,
59:04
Speaker 2: thank you so much for letting me be here, or something.
59:09
Speaker 3: Dismissal and so.
59:11
Speaker 1: I I not so no acknowledgment in the note about
59:14
Speaker 1: your funck up. No, just trying to be not even
59:17
Speaker 1: like I'm sorry. Sorry.
59:20
Speaker 2: I questioned your not even authority, your basic fucking break
59:26
Speaker 2: federal law, thinks.
59:27
Speaker 4: I believe is the word you're looking. Sorry, I questioned
59:29
Speaker 4: your ethics.
59:32
Speaker 2: And basically, you know, like I leave it on his
59:34
Speaker 2: desk or whatever. I see him later that day. He
59:37
Speaker 2: does not acknowledge me, he does not look at me,
59:41
Speaker 2: and basically he goes to my boss and he's like,
59:43
Speaker 2: does Jim have to be here, because like I was
59:47
Speaker 2: splitting time between the Halfway House and this nice clinic,
59:53
Speaker 2: and the Halfway House is out in the hood. It's
59:54
Speaker 2: a it's a credit.
59:55
Speaker 4: That's why I wasn't at the meeting because that was
59:57
Speaker 4: my office. So I worked out at the Halfway House. Yeah,
1:00:02
Speaker 4: and so all of a sudden, like, I'm seeing you
1:00:04
Speaker 4: a lot more often gyms, Like you.
1:00:08
Speaker 2: Think you need to do some more training with Nick.
1:00:11
Speaker 2: I really wanted to gain the main clinic and they'm like.
1:00:15
Speaker 4: No, you're not going this week.
1:00:17
Speaker 2: So I ended up getting reassigned in like that next
1:00:21
Speaker 2: day because so they they told me You're going to
1:00:24
Speaker 2: spend the next two weeks just training with Nick. So
1:00:26
Speaker 2: they kicked me out. I just trained with Nick, and
1:00:29
Speaker 2: then they changed my schedule so that when I'm back
1:00:31
Speaker 2: on their campus, it's only on weekends when doctor Pola
1:00:34
Speaker 2: is not there. Perfect, And so I went from having
1:00:37
Speaker 2: a sweet Monday through Friday job to fucking it up
1:00:41
Speaker 2: in the first week, and they reassigned me to weekends
1:00:44
Speaker 2: and so then I had to work Saturdays and Sundays
1:00:47
Speaker 2: like yeah, and then I was doing shifts with Nick
1:00:51
Speaker 2: on the regular week and my days off for like
1:00:53
Speaker 2: Monday and Thursday or some ship to wait.
1:00:55
Speaker 3: Oh my god, not even consecutive.
1:00:57
Speaker 2: That was my first year. That was my first year. Man, Yeah,
1:01:01
Speaker 2: that was great. I remember I had an answer to
1:01:03
Speaker 2: this question that was related to so people think you.
1:01:06
Speaker 4: Get picked on too much. I argue that you don't
1:01:08
Speaker 4: get picked on enough. Yeah, Jim doesn't want doctor Pol
1:01:11
Speaker 4: to hear this because he respects doctor Pol and doesn't
1:01:14
Speaker 4: want him to know that this is what we've sunk to.
1:01:17
Speaker 4: I don't want doctor Pol to hear this because I
1:01:19
Speaker 4: don't want him to know that I'm now doing a
1:01:20
Speaker 4: podcast with Jim.
1:01:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's it.
1:01:22
Speaker 3: Honestly, you decided.
1:01:25
Speaker 2: My greatest achievement with doctor Pole would be he forgets
1:01:28
Speaker 2: who I am.
1:01:29
Speaker 4: And that makes sense to zero.
1:01:32
Speaker 2: It's all I want. I don't want to be like, oh,
1:01:34
Speaker 2: you're the dumb ass kid that gave me that pen.
1:01:36
Speaker 3: Nice to meet you for the first time.
1:01:40
Speaker 1: Is that?
1:01:41
Speaker 4: Is this the real reason that you grew facial hair? Yeah?
1:01:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's to go incognito. I'm just trying to. I
1:01:46
Speaker 2: always wear the hat and I just don't want to
1:01:48
Speaker 2: bump into him anywhere ever. But yeah, he's a great
1:01:52
Speaker 2: resource writer, and you know, like a lot of what
1:01:54
Speaker 2: Nick's talking about, Man, I remember just pain one of
1:01:58
Speaker 2: the Paul taught us so much. But one of the
1:02:00
Speaker 2: things he taught us was that our goal with the patients.
1:02:03
Speaker 2: When I like in year two and three, when I
1:02:05
Speaker 2: was finally like fucking allowed back in his program and
1:02:08
Speaker 2: then I started like learning, one of the things he
1:02:10
Speaker 2: was teaching us was that the goal was not to
1:02:12
Speaker 2: eliminate the pain, because he was talking about there's only
1:02:15
Speaker 2: two pain free states, death in general anesthesia. Yeah, right,
1:02:19
Speaker 2: And so he'd say, that's but neither of those improves
1:02:21
Speaker 2: you're functioning. And so we talked to us about how
1:02:24
Speaker 2: the goal with every patient was not to relieve them
1:02:26
Speaker 2: of pain, but was to teach them to have a
1:02:28
Speaker 2: different kind of relationship with their pain. And goes back
1:02:31
Speaker 2: to what Nick was talking about. We naturally avoid pain signals,
1:02:35
Speaker 2: That's the whole fucking point. But whenever you have a
1:02:38
Speaker 2: chronic pain condition, by definition, what's probably happening is your
1:02:42
Speaker 2: body is giving false pain signals because pain signals are
1:02:45
Speaker 2: meant to be temporary. They're meant to indicate damage or
1:02:49
Speaker 2: like you know, a breaking point right that you need
1:02:51
Speaker 2: to stop doing an action. Well, chronic pain is telling
1:02:55
Speaker 2: you about damage that you either can't do anything about
1:02:57
Speaker 2: at this point, or it's trying to stop you from
1:03:00
Speaker 2: functioning because it's afraid that you're over stimulated or you're
1:03:04
Speaker 2: over exerting. But at this point, you've evaluated your risk.
1:03:07
Speaker 2: You know that that's not the case. And so it
1:03:09
Speaker 2: becomes this mind over physicality thing where you have to
1:03:13
Speaker 2: renegotiate the relationship with the pain signals. And it's like
1:03:17
Speaker 2: living in a house where smoke alarms are just constantly
1:03:19
Speaker 2: going off. You have to accept that there is no
1:03:21
Speaker 2: smoke and you somehow have to be able to increase
1:03:23
Speaker 2: your ability to function in that house despite the signals,
1:03:26
Speaker 2: not run from it, right, And so that's where Poul
1:03:29
Speaker 2: would teach us, and he had a lot of great colleagues.
1:03:31
Speaker 2: Doctor Schioti was another one that helped me co write
1:03:34
Speaker 2: the workbook, and so they were in by the way,
1:03:36
Speaker 2: doctor Pol's an MD and doctor Shoti was a clinical psychologist,
1:03:40
Speaker 2: and so together they had designed this program. But that
1:03:43
Speaker 2: was our big point writer was that we were working
1:03:46
Speaker 2: on how do we help you renegotiate this relationship, and
1:03:49
Speaker 2: all of our patients had a painkiller addiction where they
1:03:54
Speaker 2: were trying to get out of pain. But your wife
1:03:56
Speaker 2: is right to have some concern about that because that
1:03:59
Speaker 2: can become an endless tolerance chase. As Nick was pointing out,
1:04:03
Speaker 2: that never increases your functioning. Now, I respect a lot
1:04:06
Speaker 2: of the pain management docs that are out there because
1:04:09
Speaker 2: these days a lot of them are not just handing
1:04:11
Speaker 2: over pills and walking away. They are trying to negotiate
1:04:14
Speaker 2: the relationship between tolerance and relief. But if they're doing
1:04:18
Speaker 2: the job correctly, and this is where I think Nick's
1:04:20
Speaker 2: right to also get into therapy, You've got to add
1:04:23
Speaker 2: that third, you know, peace to this where the mind
1:04:27
Speaker 2: body relationship and the emotional relationship to pain are being evaluated.
1:04:33
Speaker 2: And that was one of the other things Poul would
1:04:34
Speaker 2: always teach us is that to the brain, emotional pain
1:04:38
Speaker 2: and physical pain are indistinguishable. They are the same thing,
1:04:43
Speaker 2: and so one will also lead to the other. And
1:04:46
Speaker 2: as the writer's talking about, that's a very sad story
1:04:48
Speaker 2: about like I can't tie a shoe, I can't I'm
1:04:51
Speaker 2: not autonomous and I was an oil worker. Yeah, I
1:04:55
Speaker 2: took care of business and now I feel powerless, and
1:04:58
Speaker 2: I'm a dad and I have kids and they need me,
1:05:00
Speaker 2: and I want to do dad stuff with my kids.
1:05:02
Speaker 2: There's a lot of emotional pain, and that emotional pain
1:05:06
Speaker 2: also stimulates the physical pain. So the goal writer long
1:05:10
Speaker 2: term is to redefine the relationship we have with pain,
1:05:14
Speaker 2: and to discover as many interventions as we can, including
1:05:17
Speaker 2: medicinal ones, that all contribute together to giving us a
1:05:21
Speaker 2: tolerable relationship with that pain. And also understanding that there's
1:05:25
Speaker 2: going to be physical limitations for the rest of our lives,
1:05:27
Speaker 2: which I don't hear you in denial of in your letter,
1:05:30
Speaker 2: but changing our relationship to our body long term, which
1:05:32
Speaker 2: is a big part of this.
1:05:33
Speaker 4: So yeah, good things, you know, and I remember, you know,
1:05:37
Speaker 4: we would talk about this all the time too. Is
1:05:39
Speaker 4: like the issue with kind of the healthcare industry as
1:05:42
Speaker 4: a whole. It's like, you know that if you come
1:05:45
Speaker 4: in with a symptom, the doctor's job is to relieve
1:05:48
Speaker 4: the symptom, and it kind of started becoming the same
1:05:51
Speaker 4: way with pain. Yes, So when a person came in,
1:05:55
Speaker 4: you know, with pain, then the doctor's like, okay, I
1:05:57
Speaker 4: need to relieve the pain.
1:05:59
Speaker 2: Goal is to get you out of it.
1:06:00
Speaker 4: And then opiates came along and it's like, oh my god,
1:06:02
Speaker 4: this does the job. But that was actually kind of
1:06:05
Speaker 4: a revolutionary thing because previous generations didn't have that. Like
1:06:10
Speaker 4: my grandparents, my great grandparents never had the expectation that
1:06:15
Speaker 4: they would be pain free. Their doctors never had the
1:06:18
Speaker 4: expectation that they would be pain free, and so like
1:06:22
Speaker 4: the idea was like, Okay, well let's find a way
1:06:24
Speaker 4: that we can manage this pain. Then all of a sudden,
1:06:26
Speaker 4: opiates came around, and we're like, oh, we could have
1:06:29
Speaker 4: no pain. And so if my job is to do
1:06:33
Speaker 4: what you the patient, you know, relieve whatever symptom you're
1:06:37
Speaker 4: coming in with, and I've got this tool, there we go.
1:06:40
Speaker 4: We're set, and we don't really think anything beyond that.
1:06:44
Speaker 4: That became very problematic obviously as we found it.
1:06:47
Speaker 2: I don't think your physicians are wildly irresponsible, like your
1:06:50
Speaker 2: wife fears, but I do. I tend to want to hear.
1:06:55
Speaker 2: I tend to champion what your wife is saying, right, because,
1:06:59
Speaker 2: again Nick and I come from addictions background. We've seen
1:07:02
Speaker 2: a lot of lives ruined by this shit.
1:07:04
Speaker 4: Opioid induced hyper algesia.
1:07:06
Speaker 2: Oh my god, we didn't even mention that.
1:07:08
Speaker 4: Yeah, and it's not it's not overly common, but it
1:07:12
Speaker 4: happens a lot where like, uh, what basically what happens
1:07:16
Speaker 4: with long term use of opioids? Your pain receptors become
1:07:21
Speaker 4: overly sensitive. Yes, so things that wouldn't normally cause pain
1:07:25
Speaker 4: actually cause pain.
1:07:26
Speaker 3: I was going to ask you.
1:07:27
Speaker 5: I mean, this may be like kind of a stupid question,
1:07:30
Speaker 5: but that was going to be my question, Like what
1:07:32
Speaker 5: is the problem? Like you said, your tolerance increases, then
1:07:35
Speaker 5: you increase, Like where does it become a problem then?
1:07:39
Speaker 5: Is it just yeah, and so you're explaining some of
1:07:41
Speaker 5: that now, but is does it affect the liver?
1:07:43
Speaker 2: Does it? Like? What do you know? What I mean?
1:07:46
Speaker 1: Yeah?
1:07:46
Speaker 4: Ultimately, well, it's just like anything, you know, it's tolerance
1:07:50
Speaker 4: to alcohol where it's like, okay, I have, you know,
1:07:54
Speaker 4: three beers and I get a buzz and then all
1:07:56
Speaker 4: of a sudden, three beers does nothing, and then it
1:07:58
Speaker 4: takes four. Then it takes five, then it takes six,
1:08:00
Speaker 4: and it takes you know, and it's just more and
1:08:02
Speaker 4: more and more, and ultimately it's the same thing, except
1:08:05
Speaker 4: instead of the buzz, the buzz is being pain free.
1:08:08
Speaker 2: Right.
1:08:09
Speaker 5: My question is like, what's the problem with drinking twenty
1:08:11
Speaker 5: nine beers a day and we know your liver will
1:08:13
Speaker 5: like die?
1:08:14
Speaker 3: So I guess I was wondering like with.
1:08:15
Speaker 4: Well, ultimately, yeah, I mean obviously there's liver damage.
1:08:19
Speaker 2: Well, it's an unsustainable path, but.
1:08:20
Speaker 4: It's yeah, at the end of the day, that's really
1:08:22
Speaker 4: what it is, is the pain's going to be there.
1:08:24
Speaker 2: The treatment plan, no matter how many giving you this
1:08:27
Speaker 2: until you overdose and die is one of the greater Yeah,
1:08:31
Speaker 2: the overdose will kill you and take you out of pain,
1:08:33
Speaker 2: but at some point we're starting to get to a
1:08:35
Speaker 2: risk of that. There was one client.
1:08:36
Speaker 1: It seems like the type of ethics that Jim would
1:08:38
Speaker 1: question on his first day in a meeting.
1:08:40
Speaker 5: With a lot of other people right here to bring
1:08:42
Speaker 5: all the people that know what they're doing and say, well,
1:08:45
Speaker 5: what about this?
1:08:47
Speaker 3: Just let them have it? No I had Oh, I
1:08:49
Speaker 3: was genuinely wondering that, Like.
1:08:51
Speaker 2: Once I once had a client.
1:08:53
Speaker 4: He was a physician and he was getting his doctor
1:08:56
Speaker 4: friends to write his prescriptions for him, and at one
1:08:59
Speaker 4: point he was taking twenty two hydro codone twice a day. Oh,
1:09:05
Speaker 4: he was taking twenty two at a time. Kids, you
1:09:07
Speaker 4: got to work up to that.
1:09:08
Speaker 2: Shit.
1:09:09
Speaker 4: Yeah, don't go out right now and get twenty two
1:09:11
Speaker 4: hydro code And he do that and he told me
1:09:13
Speaker 4: he's like he was like, I thought no human being
1:09:17
Speaker 4: could survive taking ten. Yeah, and I'm taking twenty two.
1:09:20
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:09:20
Speaker 4: And he said, he said, if I take twenty one,
1:09:23
Speaker 4: I am in an incredible pain.
1:09:25
Speaker 2: Yeah, worse than the original. And that's what yer, Yeah,
1:09:29
Speaker 2: that's what hYP But no, this is the problem again
1:09:31
Speaker 2: with opioids and why the opioid crisis became what it
1:09:34
Speaker 2: was because you'd start like we'd have a kid doing athletics, right,
1:09:37
Speaker 2: and they twist their ankle, they break their tear, their
1:09:40
Speaker 2: acl whatever, and so then we give them like fucking
1:09:43
Speaker 2: hydro codone or give them fucking delauded, you know, take
1:09:46
Speaker 2: them out of pain, because that's the only goal we have. Said,
1:09:48
Speaker 2: if you're out of the pain, then you're not complaining
1:09:50
Speaker 2: to do your math homework, right. Well, the problem is
1:09:52
Speaker 2: it impairs your functioning too. Nobody's like passing their SATs
1:09:56
Speaker 2: whenever they're loaded with fucking delauded. So now it's got
1:09:59
Speaker 2: it's got these motion guys, it's cognitive effects, it's it's uh.
1:10:02
Speaker 2: And then you've got this hyper algesia effect. Now you're
1:10:05
Speaker 2: having to increase the dosage to stay out of pain.
1:10:07
Speaker 2: So you're chasing the dragon, right And then, like this
1:10:10
Speaker 2: happened with that physician, more and more pills. But at
1:10:13
Speaker 2: some point you cap out on the amount of pills
1:10:15
Speaker 2: they can legally give you, and so then the next
1:10:18
Speaker 2: move is very very obvious, and it was it was,
1:10:21
Speaker 2: I mean it was worse with you start illicitly getting pills,
1:10:26
Speaker 2: and then at some point it's cheaper to move on
1:10:29
Speaker 2: to heroin. The heroin is way the fuck cheaper than
1:10:32
Speaker 2: all the pills, So then you start getting lesser amounts
1:10:34
Speaker 2: of heroin at a cheaper price, and then you start
1:10:36
Speaker 2: getting addicted to that, and then you have to escalate
1:10:38
Speaker 2: that up to intravenious use. Then you have to start
1:10:41
Speaker 2: putting in fentanyl. That's the entire runawayich was.
1:10:44
Speaker 4: Which was really interesting in that job because that like
1:10:48
Speaker 4: a lot of outside of that, when I worked at
1:10:50
Speaker 4: other agencies, a lot of the heroin addicts and whoever
1:10:54
Speaker 4: I was working with it was addicted to opiates. Like
1:10:57
Speaker 4: it was like, well, yeah, I started using alcohol then
1:11:00
Speaker 4: you know, kind of dabbled with meth for a little
1:11:02
Speaker 4: bit and got into the opiates. Blah blah blah. But
1:11:04
Speaker 4: at that clinic it was a whole different population. It
1:11:08
Speaker 4: was I have never touched substances, and then I had
1:11:11
Speaker 4: a knee injury.
1:11:12
Speaker 2: Right, it was.
1:11:14
Speaker 4: That's always, that's always.
1:11:16
Speaker 2: Yeah. They were not the people that you think of,
1:11:19
Speaker 2: but that was and that was one of the reasons
1:11:20
Speaker 2: they never got healthy, because they didn't feel safe at
1:11:22
Speaker 2: rehabs because that didn't define them. But they were absolutely
1:11:26
Speaker 2: dependent on the substance and that was where. But man,
1:11:30
Speaker 2: opioids are a special kind of hell, and they're a
1:11:32
Speaker 2: bitch and a half to get off of, you know.
1:11:34
Speaker 2: Like the old joke was like alcohol is the one
1:11:37
Speaker 2: drug that you know the withdrawal could kill you. Opioids
1:11:40
Speaker 2: you'll wish for death. Yeah, yeah, like that, you wish
1:11:43
Speaker 2: they could kill you.
1:11:44
Speaker 4: That's the old joking.
1:11:45
Speaker 3: Very funny, it's funnier.
1:11:48
Speaker 2: Doctor didn't like that joke either, the audience.
1:11:54
Speaker 4: I know you didn't like yesterday, but.
1:12:00
Speaker 2: Brought another pad anyway, writer.
1:12:03
Speaker 1: And I know it may have sounded like Jim was
1:12:05
Speaker 1: recommending on a financial basis that you just skipped straight
1:12:07
Speaker 1: to Harold with Yeah, that is not the official pot
1:12:10
Speaker 1: therapy Platform's Ramsey platform.
1:12:14
Speaker 2: Jim's plat response, mister Jim Jobs anyway, writer, this is
1:12:18
Speaker 2: a tough one, but you know, I appreciate your wife's
1:12:21
Speaker 2: wisdom in this. I think she's pushing in the right direction.
1:12:23
Speaker 2: But I would encourage more education for everybody involved, right
1:12:27
Speaker 2: like when we're working as a team. If we can
1:12:29
Speaker 2: ever bring wife to the pain management I think that's
1:12:31
Speaker 2: important too, because then she can be a part of this.
1:12:34
Speaker 2: She can see, Hey, there's a reason why he's on
1:12:36
Speaker 2: these things. Here's my plan, here's how I'm helping your
1:12:39
Speaker 2: husband not fall down this cliff of tolerance building. Here's
1:12:43
Speaker 2: how we're protecting against hyper algezia, and here's my treatment
1:12:46
Speaker 2: plan for him, right because I want his function to increase,
1:12:49
Speaker 2: and maybe I do want to taper him down over time.
1:12:51
Speaker 2: These surgeries kind of just happened, and so I think
1:12:54
Speaker 2: just continued education for both of you, making this a
1:12:57
Speaker 2: negotiated thing though, because that's another thing too. There's this
1:13:01
Speaker 2: thing that there's a myth that these medicines are just
1:13:04
Speaker 2: pain medicines, and that's not true. They are psychoactive substances.
1:13:08
Speaker 2: They have an effect on your mood, They have an
1:13:10
Speaker 2: effect on your emotions. You are a different person when
1:13:13
Speaker 2: you are on them. You know, we have a member
1:13:15
Speaker 2: of our family that had a devastating injury and became
1:13:19
Speaker 2: dependent on these for the rest of their lives. And
1:13:21
Speaker 2: it affects the family because like we can all tell
1:13:24
Speaker 2: whenever you've had your last dose, we can all tell
1:13:26
Speaker 2: whenever you're on more. You're loopy, you're not interesting, like
1:13:30
Speaker 2: you're not making any sense, You're drooling in the corner,
1:13:32
Speaker 2: you know, like you're forgetting half the things you've already said,
1:13:35
Speaker 2: and like it's not just a physical medicine. It does
1:13:38
Speaker 2: affect you. It affects your emotions, It affects your emotional availability.
1:13:42
Speaker 2: And that's another thing too, is when you're not on them,
1:13:44
Speaker 2: you become like stress intolerant. And that's another portion of
1:13:48
Speaker 2: it too. So, writer, your wife's not off base for
1:13:51
Speaker 2: being an invested stakeholder in this. I just encourage this
1:13:55
Speaker 2: as often as possible. To include her in your treatment,
1:13:57
Speaker 2: to include her in the education, and yes, to let
1:14:00
Speaker 2: her ask challenging questions to your doctors as well. If
1:14:03
Speaker 2: you choose to so that they can know, like, hey,
1:14:05
Speaker 2: the goal is not just to sedate him and have
1:14:08
Speaker 2: him drooling out of the side of his mouth. The
1:14:10
Speaker 2: goal is to improve functioning and regain his life.
1:14:13
Speaker 4: You know what Again, like the big thing that to
1:14:15
Speaker 4: kind of summarize all of my points, I would say,
1:14:19
Speaker 4: don't feel like you can only fight this on one front.
1:14:22
Speaker 4: You're going to have to fight this on all fronts.
1:14:23
Speaker 4: And that doesn't mean just medication. You know, I mentioned exercise.
1:14:28
Speaker 4: I know that there's some programs that focus on.
1:14:33
Speaker 2: Like yoga.
1:14:34
Speaker 4: Yeah, for pain, chronic pain therapy, we already talked about that.
1:14:40
Speaker 4: I mean, you're gonna have to come at this from
1:14:41
Speaker 4: all angles. That's your best approach when dealing with chronic
1:14:45
Speaker 4: pain is attack it from all angles and not just
1:14:48
Speaker 4: relying on opiates or narcotics.
1:14:51
Speaker 2: Yeah, right, or good luck with this. And you know
1:14:53
Speaker 2: the other thing that you asked about is how to
1:14:55
Speaker 2: tie your shoelaces. And what I like to do is
1:14:57
Speaker 2: I do like the bunny ears, okay, and then the
1:14:59
Speaker 2: bunnies got to go around the bush and then underneath
1:15:02
Speaker 2: and that's whenever you pull them down. It's twenty twenty five.
1:15:04
Speaker 2: Nobody has a bush.
1:15:05
Speaker 4: I gonna did you hear that?
1:15:07
Speaker 2: Uh? What is it? What's the pubic lice called crabs?
1:15:11
Speaker 2: Crabs is like an endangered species now because we all
1:15:14
Speaker 2: just save them. So around the seventies is I think
1:15:18
Speaker 2: Pinnacle crabs. That's when everybody had the fro bush going on.
1:15:22
Speaker 2: We're gonna take a quick break and when we come back,
1:15:24
Speaker 2: we're ending the show. Probably forever you're listening to pod there.
1:15:28
Speaker 3: Call that doctor.
1:15:30
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1:15:46
Speaker 2: You're not endangered.
1:15:47
Speaker 4: That is a myth.
1:15:48
Speaker 2: Uh yeah, let's ask the koalas that's it. That's what
1:15:52
Speaker 2: I think. I'll bet you they have quite a few.
1:15:55
Speaker 2: As we wrap up, the shtingerprints are all over this. Yeah,
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Speaker 2: Oh this is a great name. Thank you who ever
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Speaker 2: wrote this, Ray Vikirion Kawaid Kwala, I think I think
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Speaker 2: it's rave Kowala. I think that's where we're going.
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1:18:37
Speaker 2: Boom boom. You know, I think this might be a
1:18:42
Speaker 2: violation of the Hill and require.
1:18:44
Speaker 1: Months for everybody who's because the information is on this
1:18:50
Speaker 1: paper have.
1:18:55
Speaker 5: It.
1:18:55
Speaker 2: I don't even understand the argument.
1:18:59
Speaker 1: I really think that earlier I was like, wouldn't it
1:19:02
Speaker 1: not be a hipp A violation until they shared that
1:19:04
Speaker 1: information with someone else just having in paper and knew
1:19:09
Speaker 1: I didn't know. This are the potential problem here that
1:19:13
Speaker 1: I've just spotted on the papers with the things of
1:19:16
Speaker 1: the writings.
1:19:17
Speaker 4: Here's here's the great thing. Is Jerry lewis b more
1:19:21
Speaker 4: like the guy from the Simpsons who's a Jerry Lewis.
1:19:23
Speaker 4: Bill got Jerry Lewis bit you you're so embarrassed by
1:19:29
Speaker 4: this that you've forgotten about how embarrassed you were about
1:19:31
Speaker 4: the pledge of allegiance and the dear thing.
1:19:33
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, there's.
1:19:37
Speaker 1: I was proud day in my life and pretending that
1:19:40
Speaker 1: the drug addict had a cocaine.
1:19:43
Speaker 3: That's all I think of every time we let that
1:19:45
Speaker 3: ship go.
1:19:46
Speaker 4: No, I don't know what you know, We've never let
1:19:49
Speaker 4: it go.
1:19:50
Speaker 5: I literally told a fellow colleague about that story because
1:19:53
Speaker 5: they called me.
1:19:56
Speaker 3: No, that's not part of my review taking off.
1:20:00
Speaker 2: It was showing a snitch. I don't know if.
1:20:04
Speaker 4: You'll do this.
1:20:05
Speaker 5: But they called me and they were like, hey, so,
1:20:08
Speaker 5: I know, like we're all professional and everything, but like,
1:20:13
Speaker 5: let me just tell you this one thing that's like,
1:20:15
Speaker 5: you know whatever, And I was like, Oh, don't worry,
1:20:16
Speaker 5: as long as you haven't done this.
1:20:18
Speaker 6: Yeah, accusing me as the story that makes other people
1:20:22
Speaker 6: feel better, They're like, okay, ethics violation, My buddy planted
1:20:26
Speaker 6: dope on addicts.
1:20:28
Speaker 2: It was great, whatever, goodbye, everybody,