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Mind Explorations on Nested Loops, Metaphors, and Levels of Disassociation · The Hypnotist

• 0:05
  Welcome to The Hypnotist, the show that gives you inside
• 0:09
  access to cutting edge hypnosis with real clients facing
• 0:12
  genuine. Issues.
• 0:13
  Brought to you by The Hypnotherapist, demanded by
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  celebrities, CEOs and even royalty, Adam Cox.
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  These recordings took place live from Adam's clinic in London's
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  world famous Harley Street. So get yourself comfortable and
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  enjoy today's episode of The Hypnotist.
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  Hi, it's Adam here and you're about to listen to a podcast
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  episode, but I was featured on by a fellow hypnotherapist
• 0:47
  called Astrid. I have seen Astrid at all of the
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  other hypnotherapy conferences. She's a very good speaker.
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  She's been on my show before talking about tinnitus, and she
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  was asking me about my thoughts on nested loops, on metaphor, on
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  levels of disassociation, and why I use the movie Inception as
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  a structural metaphor to talk about nested loop.
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  So if you're mainly if you're a hypnotherapist, but if you're
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  just interested in therapy or how people can weave stories
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  within stories, or how I structure some of my
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  hypnotherapy sessions, you might get some value from this
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  session. So find a quiet, comfortable
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  place where you're not going to be disturbed.
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  Relax and enjoy the session. It is recording.
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  So good evening everyone, and welcome to this new episode of
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  Mind Explorations. Mind Explorations is a podcast
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  that came out of a Facebook group that you can join if you
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  would like to join us live, like about 15 people are doing right
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  now. And I'm speaking here with or
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  two actually Adam Cox, who is himself a podcast host of the
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  Hypnotist podcast on Spotify. But what you might not know,
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  he's also a hypnotist, surprisingly, and he's going to
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  talk to us about, talk to us today about levels of
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  dissociation and nested loops. And that is one of those Mystic
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  things that every hypnotist learns or doesn't learn.
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  And we're going to shed some light on how you can use them
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  and make it easy to, yeah, to use them for your next client.
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  So hello, Adam. I'm glad you're here.
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  Glad to be here. Wonderful.
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  So for anyone who doesn't know you yet, apart from what I've
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  just said, would you just introduce yourself, how long
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  you've been in the business and what do you do?
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  Yeah, so I've been a hypnotherapist for about 12-13
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  years. Got into it just because it
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  helped me, basically. And yeah, found it really,
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  really interesting. Yeah.
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  Yeah. So 12 years ago you started you,
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  you got studying with some, well got your basic training and then
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  you've probably trained a lot more and you've worked in Harley
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  Street or you do work you did or you do work in from Harley
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  Street. I used to.
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  I used to. So what?
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  Happened now pretty much all online.
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  Yeah, so with the pandemic, I'm, I'm just reading off of your
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  information really. So you used to work in Harley
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  Street. So that's that's a pretty,
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  pretty good part of London. And that means you are one of
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  the good quality hypnotists really.
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  And I'm going to cut that part out.
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  And right, so now you're working online and you're working with
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  people all over the world. And what do you specialize in?
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  A lot of anxiety, a lot of weight loss.
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  Yeah, phobias. A lot of phobias as well.
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  OK, all right, so and now we're going to get straight into the
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  subject of nested loops. What interested you in nested
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  loops? For for, for me, a nested loop
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  is a story within a story, and you can't really talk about
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  nested loops without talking about open loops.
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  So for for me, an open loop is something incomplete.
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  It's something unfinished. A good example of that could be
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  click bait. So a lot of you will see
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  articles online and there'll be a headline and the headline will
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  kind of allude to something, but you can't figure out what it is
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  unless you actually kind of go into the article.
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  So click bait is kind of an open loop or unfinished gossip.
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  A lot of people will have heard the beginning of a story and
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  right in the middle of that story, someone kind of holds
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  back and they say, well, I shouldn't have told you that.
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  Like forget everything that I've said.
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  But because you've heard a little taste of that, you then
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  get really, really interested, even more interested than they
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  told you the whole story because it's not quite finished.
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  So these kind of things are open loops, A teaser.
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  It could be a Riddle that you don't know the answer to, an
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  unwrapped present that you kind of as a child would have shaken
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  just to kind of imagine what was inside.
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  All of these are kind of open loops because they're not quite
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  finished. And what a nested loop kind of
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  does is it has one story, opens up a loop, and then begins a new
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  story. And then within that story opens
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  up another loop and then perhaps starts the story.
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  Most people know at least one person.
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  There's a bit of a rock and to, you know, a bit of a storyteller
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  and they can't stick to 1 theme. So they'll go on tangents or
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  they'll digress into a different area.
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  That can be frustrating for people to listen to someone that
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  never gets to the end of what they're talking about.
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  But it also is quite compelling because you're listening to
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  someone and then you're like, oh, where's this going to go
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  next? And of all the hypnotherapist
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  that I think are naturally wired that way, I would say Richard
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  Bandler. You know, he he can't start at
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  the beginning and get to the end.
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  Like it goes off on all these kind of digressions and
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  tangents. But by doing that, what it does
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  is it kind of brings you in and it can almost create a confusion
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  induction or it requires so much attention to kind of figure out.
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  Where you are. The way I was taught nested
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  loops was in almost like a a linguistic way, like a linear
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  way that you you start story #1 and you kind of go into story
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  one, and then before you finish story 2, you open up story 2.
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  Before you get to the end of story 2, you open up three.
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  And then when you get to the end, you kind of go backwards
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  and you start closing off Story 3 or story 4, then go back to
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  close Story 3. A lot.
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  Of hypnotherapists like the idea of doing nested loops, but they
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  don't do it because there's this feeling that it's a lot of work
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  to do. And also if you're memorizing
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  stories and metaphors within that, there's this kind of
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  feeling of, well, how do I, how do I know this is even going to
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  be relevant to the client in front of me?
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  So a lot of people have have a almost a conflict there where
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  nested loops sound great because it's quite creative and it's, it
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  kind of quite Ericssonian weaving and lots of metaphors,
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  but it kind of seems too much hassle.
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  So for me, what really changed how I was thinking about nested
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  loops early on in COVID, I think a lot of people took up hobbies
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  in, in COVID. And my hobby was a podcast
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  because I was at Harley Street. The rent was high.
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  It was quite a prestigious location, but there's no point
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  paying all that rent if you're not seeing clients face to face.
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  So from my perspective, I kind of wound that down, but I really
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  wanted a creative outlet for hypnosis.
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  I already had a podcast at that point called Modern Mindset, but
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  I thought, OK, what I'm really passionate about isn't about
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  mindset, it's about hypnosis. So I created a podcast called
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  The Hypnotist and the early episodes of me sharing my weight
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  loss, you know, kind of sessions protecting confidentiality.
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  What really changed though, is when I started taking
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  inspiration from movies. And the first movie that I used
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  as kind of inspiration for hypnosis session was Limitless
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  with Bradley Cooper and Robert De Niro about this idea that you
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  take a pill and you can kind of tap into your full potential.
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  And I did a few. But my favorite film I still in
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  my top five films is Inception. And I think a lot of hypnotists
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  really resonate with Inception because it's this idea of
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  accessing the subconscious dreams within dreams.
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  And when I turned the storyline of Inception into a hypnosis
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  session, it was almost like the Venn 2 Venn diagrams kind of
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  almost became an eclipse because it was like the structure of a
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  nested loop and the structure of the storyline of Inception
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  almost mirrored each other. Because you've got.
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  These kind of storylines, but they don't quite finish before
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  they start up a new storyline. But what I found really, really
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  fascinating. Is.
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  One key distinction, and that key distinction in inception is.
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  It was kind of a. Thought as I did this and it was
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  how difficult would it be to follow the movie Inception if
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  all of the levels were based in a similar environment?
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  If they're all in streets or if they're all, you know, in the
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  snow, or if they're all in a hotel, what makes it easier to
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  follow if you're an audience member of Inception, is this
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  element that you can kind of figure out where they are in the
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  dreams, which dream they're in, based on the location that
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  they're in. And what I found is that that
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  then helped me to think about nested loops in a different way,
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  not based on traditional linguistic story.
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  One story 2, Story 3. But levels of disassociation and
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  the levels of disassociation for me is that you start off in one
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  environment and then you have some kind of a vehicle that gets
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  them to a different environment. And a lot of people do this
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  intuitively. In hypnosis, we're trained to
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  have a deepener, and that deepener might have some kind of
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  a staircase. So, but quite often the
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  staircase just gets you down to the end of the staircase.
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  But why can't a staircase be? Because we're dealing with the
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  imagination. You could be lots of people like
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  to start their hypnosis in a place that they feel comfortable
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  with, like a beach or near a lake.
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  You could have the staircase literally going from the sand
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  underground to a different context.
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  Now, what this kind of does is dovetail with mnemonics, because
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  one of the things that's quite helpful with your memorizing
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  things is to make them absurd, make them odd, make them kind of
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  different. And it's weird to have a
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  staircase going down on a beach because you would think like the
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  staircase is going to be filled with sand.
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  It would do in reality, but in your imagination it can just be
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  OK. There is a staircase going from
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  the beach. That makes it very easy to
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  remember. And I use Hansel and Gretel as
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  the metaphor as to why people don't use nested loops.
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  If you remember the story, they get lost in the in the forest
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  and they're relying on bread crumbs to find their way home.
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  And I think a lot of people are worried about having story one,
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  story 2, Story 3, because it's kind of like if they lose track
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  of where they are, they can't get back to the beginning.
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  And then there's a feeling of failing as a as a kind of
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  hypnotist. You don't really want to do that
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  if you've got a client in front of you.
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  So what I found is that there are two key distinctions that
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  makes my nested loops different from the average nested loop.
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  One of them is, rather than thinking of stories within
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  stories, I look at it in terms of levels of disassociation.
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  And then the second distinction is that I'm using the vehicle to
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  get from one level of dissociation to another as some
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  form of mnemonic, some memory tool.
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  And I quite like using symbolism because symbolism naturally is
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  quite easy to kind of introduce on a, on a story.
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  And, and you know, we see this in fiction all the time.
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  Like if you think of the, you know, Narnia, for example, you
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  know, kind of how did they get from their kind of stately home
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  into this kind of magical land? It's.
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  At the back of a. Wardrobe OK, that that would be
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  and. Everybody remembers because it's
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  a wardrobe and not a staircase or a door.
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  Yeah, and not just a conventional door there.
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  And, and it's there's something magical about that.
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  Equally for Alice in in Alice in Wonderland, it was a rabbit
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  hole. And Alice threw the looking
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  glass. It was a, a, a mirror.
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  So these ideas and, and you could ask someone that hasn't
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  seen, you know, Alice in Wonderland or, or kind of like
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  the Narnia kind of story of the Chronicles of Narnia, how do
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  they get from like their reality to this imaginative world in
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  Narnia? And they're like through a
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  wardrobe. And it could be years since
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  they've read the book or kind of seen the movie.
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  But there's something about that that demonstrates that it's a
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  mnemonic. So if that can last for years,
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  it can definitely last in a 45 minute hypnosis session.
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  So you can use these tools to get from one level of
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  disassociation to another level of disassociation.
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  Knowing that, it's pretty easy to remember because you can use
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  the absurdity of why does one thing bridge to another when it
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  doesn't normally do that. And you can use things like
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  elevators, you can use fireman's pole children's slides, You can
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  use absolutely anything. But you want to have something
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  that means that these become the bread crumbs in Hansel and
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  Gretel that aren't going to be eaten by the animals.
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  Like they're still going to be there when you think back to
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  them. Yeah, right.
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  So just for anyone who doesn't know the movie Inception,
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  because I remember it from seeing you at the UK hypnosis
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  convention, could you just give us a quick storyline and the the
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  levels that they go through, the the scenes that they go?
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  Through yeah, the, the, the premise is it's a reverse heist
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  movie. So a classic heist movie is that
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  you've got to take the gold or the money from the the vault in
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  the in the in the in the bank. This is reverse heist.
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  The the premise is that instead of taking something, you're
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  putting a seed of an idea into the mind of someone that it's
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  beneficial to do that. And there is this billionaire
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  owner of a huge conglomerate that is about to die.
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  He's got an heir that is going to inherit all of that.
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  And there are vested interest that would benefit if that
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  company gets broken up. So the concept, the premise of
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  the of the movie is to put a seed of an idea into the mind of
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  this heir played by Cillian Murphy.
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  You probably know from like Peaky Blinders and you know,
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  lots of movies 28 Days Later. So it's a seed of an idea
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  planted in in his head. But lots of Chris Nolan's movies
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  are quite well researched. There's this idea and I think
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  it's. Hypnotist, we get that.
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  But if you just give someone a suggestion in normal waking
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  life, generally it's rejected. You know, we try that, you know,
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  you'll say that, you know people say it to themself.
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  Why can't I just lose weight? Why can't I do that in a
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  completely conscious state? And they wonder, why doesn't
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  that work? There is this kind of idea in
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  hypnosis that you want to get them to some different kind of.
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  Whether you call it a state or a feeling or enhanced
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  neuroplasticity, something where that suggestion is more likely
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  to be taken. And the premise in Inception is
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  that they want to go about 5 levels deep.
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  And if they go 5 levels deep, an idea that wouldn't stick at
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  level 1 or level 2 would be accepted kind of deeper down
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  through different, you know, not just the dream within the dream,
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  but the dream within the dream within the dream within the
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  dream. So they have this machine that
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  enables people to kind of access people's dreams, but they can do
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  it more than once. So they can have the machine in
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  the dream, which means that you can have a dream within a dream
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  within a dream. And, and, and it's, it's quite
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  complex to follow, but it is helped by the fact that they are
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  in different locations. So what you would call the
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  reality level in the movie Inception is a flight from, I
• 16:47
  think they're going to New York, you know, so they've got this
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  flight and the open loop. There at that level is can they
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  get everything done before the flight lands?
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  That's kind of like the open and also is is the person.
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  Going to remain asleep throughout the whole journey to
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  make this thing happen, you know, So there's a cut.
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  There's a bit of jeopardy at that kind of level.
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  So that's on the plane. And then the next level down,
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  they're in the back of a van and this van is being driven around
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  the streets, but it's being pursued so.
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  You know you're not on the plane now, you know that you're in the
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  back of a van, but then there's this extra open loop of are they
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  going to get caught? And you've got this extra, you
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  know, kind of element of jeopardy that a jolt wakes
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  everyone up, what they call the kick.
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  So this van is rushing around the streets.
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  And that's the kind of element as a, as a watch, you're like,
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  oh, are they going to wake everyone up?
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  Is this plan going to? Fail.
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  So you've got 2 open loops there, but then they hook
• 17:46
  someone up in the back of a van and that takes them to a hotel.
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  And in the hotel they want to get a combination lock so that
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  they can kind of access certain, you know, kind of things.
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  So and each each level deeper has this idea that it gets.
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  More distant from reality. So in the van, it kind of abides
• 18:07
  by the laws of physics, but when they get to the hotel, you've
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  got kind of hallways kind of morphing and, and all of this.
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  And if start floating and, and things like that.
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  And then when they're in the hotel, when they've got the
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  combination lock, then they hook up one of the characters to this
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  machine. They're now in that person's
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  dream. And in that dream they're in a
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  snow fortress. And the snow fortress also
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  contains a hospital bed, which happens to contain the dying
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  billionaire conglomerate owner. So that when the Celia Murphy
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  character is in that hotel in the snow fortress, he's able to
• 18:44
  kind of hear the last dying wishes of his father that he was
• 18:47
  kind of estranged from. So it makes it feel like it's
• 18:51
  his idea to kind of do something, you know, for
• 18:55
  environmental reasons and other things.
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  That's something that he buys into, but essentially it leads
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  to the outcome of breaking up that.
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  Now you've also got a couple of other open loops at that .1 is
• 19:06
  this whole Leonardo DiCaprio storyline of how did his wife
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  die and did she really commit suicide?
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  But then he has to escape the snow fortress and ends up in
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  this kind of apocalyptic world of kind of falling skyscrapers,
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  what they call limbo. And it also has this kind of
• 19:24
  open loop that if you can't get out of that, you stay there
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  forever. Now, the last time I saw
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  Inception must have been about six years ago, but it was
• 19:34
  actually about 5-6 years when I did the episode.
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  I've not seen it since I did the episode of Hypnosis, and I can
• 19:40
  still recall the different levels because it it becomes a
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  mnemonic. Storytelling is a form of
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  mnemonic anyway. But then you've also got levels
• 19:49
  of disassociation. So all of that helps.
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  The fascinating thing, and I think it's a bit of irony there,
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  is that it's all about kind of nested loops and level and
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  dreams within dreams. But the movie even ends with an
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  open loop. He's got this little kind of
• 20:06
  spinner that goes round like a totem in the in the movie they
• 20:09
  call it to figure out are they in reality or not?
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  He sees his kids for the very first time in years and the
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  spinner is still spinning. So you're left when the credits
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  go down of. Is this real or is he still in a
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  dream? And I think it's a wonderful
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  thing to kind of end the movie with that, now that that kind of
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  element, you know? A lot of people.
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  Can kind of figure out, OK, it's quite easy to kind of see if
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  you're watching that, how the different scenes are kind of
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  different. And at the end of the movie,
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  what they effectively do mirrors very closely with what you're
• 20:44
  meant to do in nested loops, which is kind of type the loose
• 20:48
  ends if one and then go back to the next level, type the loose
• 20:52
  ends, then go back to the next level.
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  So it really is a good metaphor for nested loops.
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  And I would encourage anyone that wants to do more nested
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  loops to kind of watch the movie.
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  It's a great movie anyway, some great actors in there.
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  And, and it's really helpful to kind of have a framework to
• 21:10
  think about nested loops. Where I kind of take it a bit
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  further is that you could just use the movie inception, but
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  being in a snow fortress or, you know, being chased by kind of
• 21:21
  bad guys in a in a van isn't normally the kind of experience
• 21:24
  that people are expecting. So what you, what I do is I tend
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  to kind of find levels of disassociation relevant to the
• 21:32
  client. And generally it's linked to
• 21:35
  resource states or the metaphor that I'm going to use if I've
• 21:39
  got a client very stressed, I'll, I'll ask them the question
• 21:42
  in the in the pre talk. And the diagnostic element is,
• 21:45
  has there been a place in the last few years that you felt
• 21:48
  incredibly relaxed on that place?
• 21:51
  And quite often it tends to be a place in nature.
• 21:53
  It tends to be like a beach or near a mountain or a lake,
• 21:57
  things that are quite easy to remember.
• 22:00
  And that becomes the level, one of the first level of
• 22:04
  disassociation. It's not reality because they're
• 22:06
  not, they're not in their presence.
• 22:09
  But when they start connecting with a memory that they've got
• 22:12
  good associations with, they can get to that place pretty easily.
• 22:16
  And then you can have some kind of device where you say, and on
• 22:19
  that beach is a door and it's not connected to a building.
• 22:22
  How strange is that? But let's count from 5:00 to
• 22:24
  1:00 and go through that door and find yourself somewhere
• 22:27
  else. And what I tend to do is to help
• 22:32
  me with the, the bread crumbs to kind of find my way back.
• 22:35
  I tend to alternate between nature and somewhere that's
• 22:39
  indoors. So if it's nature at the first
• 22:42
  level, I tend to make it indoors.
• 22:43
  So it it has an element of of contrast is.
• 22:48
  Is that making any sense at all it?
• 22:50
  Is making sense. I don't even need to interrupt
• 22:53
  you, but yes, so that that's your the way to make it easier
• 22:57
  for hypnotherapists to memorize where they are.
• 23:00
  Does it make a difference for your client as well to have a
• 23:03
  very different place at a very different location each level?
• 23:11
  Yeah, it I think, I think it helps to personalize the
• 23:13
  experience because I, I think if I was a client and I was, I was
• 23:19
  being read a script at it's going to feel very generic.
• 23:24
  Whereas if you know, and you can use lots of other kind of
• 23:28
  modalities and kind of techniques within these levels
• 23:31
  of disassociation, why not do regression at Level 3?
• 23:36
  Why not do future pacing at level 4?
• 23:38
  Why not do an element of, you know, if they've got a phobia or
• 23:42
  extreme anxiety rewind technique, You know, you could
• 23:46
  have that kind of cinema or that screen, all that kind of other
• 23:49
  version of them, you know, at level four or five in this kind
• 23:53
  of process. But the personalization of it
• 23:56
  makes it feel engaging. And I also think there is a
• 24:00
  danger of hypnotherapist like when you've seen, you know, a
• 24:05
  few 100 clients and you you, you've kind of got a little bit
• 24:08
  on, on autopilot. If you're doing very similar
• 24:10
  techniques and very similar phrases, then there's a danger
• 24:14
  that you're not fully present with the client.
• 24:17
  But if you are making it a little bit more cognitively
• 24:20
  difficult for yourself by framing these levels of
• 24:24
  disassociation, we've got to figure out where you are.
• 24:27
  You've got to remember the, the symbolism that gets you from one
• 24:30
  to another. You've got to personalize it.
• 24:32
  You've got to remember which open loops you're opening and
• 24:34
  those kind of things. And by making it a little bit
• 24:36
  more challenging, it means that you've got to pay more attention
• 24:40
  in the same way that if you're riding, you know, if you're
• 24:43
  driving a car on the motorway and the weather is worse, you
• 24:45
  tend to pay more attention than if it's like a sunny day because
• 24:48
  you kind of need to, So it can, it can create an extra level of
• 24:52
  mindfulness from the practitioner to enable them to,
• 24:56
  to do it. And, and the, one of the main
• 24:58
  benefits for me is that I find it more fun.
• 25:00
  I think I would be bored in client after client if a lot of
• 25:04
  the, the techniques are, are too similar to this kind of adds a
• 25:08
  little element of creativity. And the side effect for me where
• 25:13
  I have a little bonus is because a lot of the sessions I
• 25:16
  published on my podcast, there is an extra element of, well, if
• 25:20
  I've, if I'm seeing yet another client with the same issue, I
• 25:24
  could do a very similar kind of structure of techniques for that
• 25:28
  client. But because the levels of
• 25:30
  disassociation are different, it creates an entirely different
• 25:33
  experience for the client for me.
• 25:36
  But also, if any audience was to listen to that podcast episode,
• 25:40
  most people are looking at the superficial level, the surface
• 25:43
  level, not not the structural level.
• 25:45
  So structurally it might be very similar, but superficially it
• 25:47
  would look like an entirely different a hypnosis session.
• 25:52
  Absolutely. So I've got some questions that
• 25:54
  I wrote down while you were explaining everything.
• 25:57
  So if I were a beginner I would ask you, why do we need levels
• 26:02
  of dissociation? You don't need them.
• 26:06
  I, I would say yeah, I, I think they can be beneficial.
• 26:10
  And you know, I, I would say there is an element of them
• 26:16
  being I, I use the, an acronym kind of deep.
• 26:21
  So I'm going to bring it up here so I can refresh my memory.
• 26:26
  So depth of trance is clearly a metaphor.
• 26:29
  You can't measure trance and kind of inches, centimeters and
• 26:32
  those kind of things. But people that do hypnosis a
• 26:35
  lot notice differences between someone like really immersed in
• 26:42
  an experience and you can kind of tell from facial expressions
• 26:46
  and, and body language. Someone that's like, am I really
• 26:49
  in hypnosis? Like they're, they're still kind
• 26:50
  of chatting in the head. If you give them a, a few levels
• 26:54
  of disassociation to get through and they're kind of like they're
• 26:57
  in their reality. You pace their experience in the
• 26:59
  room and then they're connected to a memory.
• 27:01
  And then in that memory, there's somewhere else and then there's
• 27:03
  someone else. It, it encourages them to kind
• 27:07
  of be in that place. So in, in a way, it does take
• 27:09
  them into a deeper experience. And the, the, the metrics for
• 27:14
  that might be hypnotic phenomenon, you know, you know,
• 27:16
  you might see the, the levels of relaxation or their eyelids or,
• 27:20
  or some kind of clues as to kind of where they're at.
• 27:24
  I think there's a high level of engagement.
• 27:26
  A lot of, a lot of clients, if it was just that kind of
• 27:32
  induction with very long progressive relaxation, they
• 27:37
  could still be in their head and saying like, you know, all this
• 27:40
  taking too long. This doesn't feel like hypnosis
• 27:42
  if you're giving them something and that, and that's why I, I
• 27:45
  call my way of doing levels of disassociation the inception
• 27:49
  induction because it becomes an induction in a deepener.
• 27:53
  When I started, the average length of my hypnosis sessions
• 27:55
  were about 45 minutes. These days they're around about
• 27:59
  20 minutes because if you get them to the fourth or fifth
• 28:02
  level of disassociation within the first 3 or 4 minutes, it can
• 28:07
  kind of get them to that place and, and they feel engaged.
• 28:10
  At least that's what I pick up on.
• 28:13
  And when you've got at that kind of 4th or 5th level, I believe
• 28:17
  that they are more suggestible to suggestions at that point.
• 28:20
  And whether that's embedded commands, whether that's
• 28:23
  metaphor, whatever it is. I think if you try to do that at
• 28:27
  the very beginning and you just close your eyes, relax and
• 28:31
  imagine that you are the phoenix rising from the flames.
• 28:34
  Like if that's an immediate thing, it kind of, it might
• 28:37
  break rapport a little bit if you introduce it kind of later
• 28:40
  down, it tends to have this ability to be accepted more.
• 28:46
  And I mentioned personalization, you know, I, I, I think it's a
• 28:51
  way to give them a real experience.
• 28:54
  And I appreciate the people. Hypnotherapist will use
• 28:57
  different techniques. I tend to use a lot of metaphor
• 28:59
  and a lot of storytelling in my approach.
• 29:02
  Therefore, what I feel is that if I'm going to give them a
• 29:06
  story, make it incredibly relevant to their specific
• 29:09
  situations, their resource states, their ideal future that
• 29:13
  they want. So for so for me, I'm weaving
• 29:16
  these stories, but they they're very, very calibrated to the
• 29:19
  individual that I'm working with.
• 29:21
  And then the bonus for me is that it's more fun for me and
• 29:24
  creative. But I would say it's not
• 29:27
  necessary. If you tend to be someone that
• 29:28
  uses predominantly idiomotor responses and direct
• 29:33
  suggestions, I would say this probably isn't the right tool.
• 29:37
  But if you are more Eric Sonian, if there's more metaphor and
• 29:41
  storytelling, if, if you like, you know, that kind of taking
• 29:46
  them on a, on a bit of a journey in their imagination, this could
• 29:48
  be great for that. But it, the wonderful things
• 29:51
  that I like about hypnotherapy is that there isn't the right
• 29:55
  way. And it makes me laugh when you,
• 29:57
  you get these kind of preachy dickhead saying like, it has to
• 29:59
  be done this way. It can be done however you want
• 30:01
  it. And, and, and that element of I
• 30:03
  like doing it this way. And, and I can guarantee you
• 30:07
  that there'll be other people saying, what's the point?
• 30:09
  You don't need all this storytelling.
• 30:10
  You don't need all these levels of disassociation.
• 30:12
  Just kind of do a rapid induction.
• 30:15
  Just tell them authoritatively that their their issue is gone.
• 30:19
  It's what works for individuals. But but I like this style.
• 30:22
  Yeah. Well, everybody's got their
• 30:23
  style that they like. So you said you personalized the
• 30:26
  sessions and you calibrate to the client.
• 30:30
  That means your interview at the beginning is probably quite
• 30:35
  extensive. So how would you?
• 30:39
  Yeah, how do you match the the different levels and the
• 30:41
  different places? Whatever you use, plain van,
• 30:45
  hotel, whatever it is, how would you match that to the client?
• 30:49
  So how how I tend to structure roughly a 60 minute session is
• 30:52
  that it's, it's that whole adage of, you know, kind of measure
• 30:57
  twice, cut once. I spent twice as much time
• 30:59
  asking the questions and kind of figuring out the outcome, trying
• 31:03
  to identify blocks or kind of issues before.
• 31:07
  So 40 minutes of a 60 minute session is me asking lots and
• 31:10
  lots of questions. I'm kind of typing away.
• 31:13
  And then normally the, the session itself is 20 minutes.
• 31:16
  And generally level 1 is a place that they know well that they
• 31:22
  have positive associations with. And I encourage them, I kind of
• 31:26
  prime them to expect it to be in nature.
• 31:28
  And I, I tell them it's because when you think of nature, it
• 31:31
  tends to, you know, be conducive to more oxytocin.
• 31:34
  Have no idea if it's true. They believe me every time.
• 31:36
  But it just means that that first level is more likely to be
• 31:40
  a place in nature and it tends to be beaches and mountains and
• 31:44
  and lakes and things like that, or gardens is parks another
• 31:48
  popular one. And then level 2 tends to be
• 31:51
  something very different. But now I'm starting to think of
• 31:54
  what kind of approach am I going to use with the client.
• 31:58
  So if I know that I'm going to use, let's say, levels of
• 32:01
  disassociation and things like that, I might say, right, and
• 32:04
  there's a door that leads to your own private cinema.
• 32:08
  And if I am going to use the cinema or control room of the
• 32:11
  mind, I'm asking them questions in that first 40 minutes.
• 32:15
  It's like, did you have a favorite cinema as a child, you
• 32:18
  know, Or when I say the word control room, what comes up for
• 32:21
  you? Is it something like mechanical
• 32:22
  with lots of kind of levers and gauges?
• 32:24
  Or is it futuristic like in Minority Report?
• 32:27
  Like what comes up for you? So that when I take them to that
• 32:30
  place, I'm not having to kind of guess what's going to build
• 32:34
  rapport with them. Again, it makes it more
• 32:36
  personalized. I tend to have a lot of you
• 32:41
  know, I'm I'm a big fan of the kind of Melissa Tears approach
• 32:45
  of associating to the problem state, disassociate from the
• 32:48
  problem state, disassociate from the resource state and then
• 32:51
  associate into that. Well, within that you've
• 32:54
  actually got opportunities for levels of disassociation that
• 32:58
  can also be nested loops, depending on how you structure
• 33:00
  them and how you open a loop at each, at each level.
• 33:04
  If you do in a child work, why not go back to a memory and
• 33:08
  disassociate and now you're in a, a childhood home.
• 33:11
  Well, that's an extra level of disassociation.
• 33:13
  So you can kind of, you know, weave in in that as well.
• 33:17
  So depending on what the client issue is, that's what determines
• 33:21
  the levels. I never go into a session, you
• 33:24
  know, thinking, right, it will be a beach and then it will be a
• 33:27
  control room and then it will be this like it's entirely
• 33:30
  dependent on what comes up in that 40 minutes.
• 33:34
  And generally towards the end, I like to do future pacing, but I
• 33:38
  like to do future pacing that is disassociated.
• 33:40
  So they see themselves like there's someone else with the
• 33:43
  change having been made. And only when they're convinced
• 33:47
  that that is a future that is desirable, they'll give me some
• 33:50
  kind of response, like a nodded head.
• 33:51
  And then I'll say right, and then step into that future
• 33:54
  version. If you tried emphasize just to
• 33:55
  make sure that it does connect and feels good and you can't
• 33:58
  think of any, any reasons why that wouldn't be good.
• 34:01
  So you've got all these different levels of
• 34:02
  disassociation and, and most hypnotherapists are using lots
• 34:06
  of levels of disassociation, but it's done in, in kind of like,
• 34:10
  like if you, if you think of a lot of movies, they will have a
• 34:15
  scene, they'll go off on a storyline and then they'll go
• 34:17
  back to the main storyline and then they'll go off.
• 34:21
  I think that's how a lot of hypnotherapists are using
• 34:23
  disassociation. They'll they'll disassociate
• 34:25
  associate back to the the default.
• 34:29
  When you use nested loops or levels of disassociation, you're
• 34:32
  kind of doing, you're opening one and then creating another
• 34:35
  one and then creating another one.
• 34:37
  So you know, that's what makes it, it different.
• 34:41
  You haven't quite finalized the earlier bits before you're doing
• 34:46
  the new bit. And, and some of the things that
• 34:48
  I like to introduce to create very simple open loops at the
• 34:51
  levels. Because if it's just a level of
• 34:54
  disassociation each time and there's no open loop, it doesn't
• 34:57
  quite map across to a, to a nested loop.
• 35:00
  So for example, with weight loss lines, for example, if they are
• 35:04
  on a beach, I'll say, and for some reason there is a puzzle,
• 35:09
  you know, one of these jigsaw puzzles and it's there.
• 35:12
  And I want you to see the logical analytical part if
• 35:15
  you're trying to solve that puzzle.
• 35:17
  And then we go off to the, the next level of disassociation.
• 35:20
  But there's a little thought in their head, what's the puzzle?
• 35:22
  What's the puzzle about? How do I solve the puzzle?
• 35:25
  But then when I get them back to the beach, quite often the
• 35:27
  suggestion that I use for weight loss is that there is an image
• 35:32
  of you losing weight and enjoying the process.
• 35:35
  And it dawns on you that all the time, the most effective way to
• 35:38
  lose the weight isn't to lose weight.
• 35:39
  To be happy is to happily lose weight.
• 35:41
  Now, if you've opened that loop at the beginning and then you
• 35:43
  close that loop at the end, that that hits them, it, it really
• 35:47
  resonates because it feels like it was incubating all that time
• 35:51
  that when you go back to it, it really kind of resonates.
• 35:53
  Whereas if I just gave that suggestion that you will happily
• 35:57
  lose weight really early on the session, it loses its impact.
• 36:00
  But if you open the loop, there's a puzzle that's going to
• 36:03
  reveal something really empowering.
• 36:05
  And then they discover that it means that they, they need to
• 36:08
  happily lose weight and enjoy the process.
• 36:11
  It, it hits different than if it's just direct.
• 36:13
  So open the loops, the different stages can can enhance him.
• 36:18
  OK, So before we go into open loops, I'd like to go back to
• 36:23
  you said that some hypnotherapists go back to the
• 36:26
  main timeline or back back to the main thing and then go back
• 36:29
  off to the next thing. So that will be comparable if we
• 36:32
  go into metaphors to going through a corridor and opening
• 36:36
  one door, then back to the corridor, opening the next door.
• 36:39
  That's what you say other. Yes, it's a great metaphor.
• 36:41
  I used to go. From room to room to room.
• 36:44
  Yeah. And, and, and, and you could,
• 36:46
  you could say that the nested loot version of that is the,
• 36:49
  you're in the corridor, you enter one room, but then in that
• 36:52
  room, there's another door that takes you to a different room.
• 36:54
  And then in that room it takes you.
• 36:55
  And then that that's kind of like levels of disassociation.
• 36:59
  Whereas if you resolve the issue in room 1, go back out of the
• 37:02
  room, back in the corridor, go into room 2, it still involves
• 37:05
  disassociation, but it doesn't have levels of disassociation of
• 37:09
  of the equivalent of dreams within dreams.
• 37:13
  OK, so open loops, what do they do for the client for somebody
• 37:18
  who doesn't know? Yeah, well, I think every, every
• 37:21
  person has had the experience of being on the receiving end of an
• 37:26
  open loop. Think of someone that you're
• 37:28
  interested in romantically. You send them a message.
• 37:31
  They read the message, but they don't respond.
• 37:34
  That's an open loop. You're like, but they've read
• 37:36
  it. Why aren't they responding?
• 37:37
  Why? You know, and and all these
• 37:39
  questions start firing off because it's not quite complete.
• 37:43
  Or it might be, you know, so again, I use the example of
• 37:49
  gossip because I think a lot of people can relate to that.
• 37:51
  But it but it's, it's getting a bit of information cliffhangers
• 37:55
  at the end of a soap opera or ATV show.
• 37:59
  Like it, it the psychology of a human is crazy because we would
• 38:03
  be reluctant to watch a three hour movie, but we will binge
• 38:06
  watch 3 one hour sessions on Netflix, 1 after the other
• 38:09
  because the Netflix we we want to know what happens next, but
• 38:13
  it's bite sized chunks. So those cliffhangers create
• 38:17
  this thing and you know, there's an element of kind of Gestalt
• 38:20
  psychology there. It's that element of the
• 38:24
  incompleteness gives us discomfort temporarily and
• 38:29
  that's why we've got a desire to kind of tie up the loose ends.
• 38:32
  I, I believe and I know there's lots of kind of spiritual people
• 38:35
  in the hypnosis community. I believe that one of the main
• 38:38
  reasons that people go to a psychic after a bereavement is
• 38:44
  they're trying to close a loop that can't be closed anymore
• 38:48
  because that person's that they can't have the conversation that
• 38:50
  needs to be have. But if the psychic tells them,
• 38:53
  you know, and they're here and you're forgiven.
• 38:56
  Oh, closed loop. OK.
• 38:59
  I I think a lot of what happens in in psychic circles is more
• 39:02
  like hypnosis than anything kind of paranormal in my opinion, it
• 39:06
  does seem. So very often.
• 39:08
  Yeah, Yeah. It induces a chance they, you
• 39:10
  know, expectation, all of those things.
• 39:12
  So we all know the power of an open loop, the open loop.
• 39:15
  It feels uncomfortable until we get the solution, you know, and,
• 39:22
  and a lot of people are sold, sold things based on, OK,
• 39:28
  you've, you've picked up the scab, you've identified a
• 39:29
  problem, but there is, there isn't a solution yet, but
• 39:32
  there's hope that there's a solution, right?
• 39:34
  Get your credit card out and, and kind of do it, You know,
• 39:37
  it's, it's a psychological phenomenon that explains why
• 39:41
  most, most social media content, you know, most kind of online
• 39:47
  news channels use click bait as a title is because humans
• 39:50
  respond well to an open loop that can be closed.
• 39:54
  It can also be a form of frustration because like you
• 39:57
  could have just told me that why did I have to do this thing?
• 40:00
  You know, in in e-mail marketing terms, a lot of a lot of us will
• 40:03
  use. A lead magnet because why do
• 40:07
  they put the e-mail in and and click submit?
• 40:09
  Because they want to get the thing that you've opened the
• 40:12
  loop for. And that's in the in the
• 40:14
  solution. So why are open loops important?
• 40:16
  Because they work on humans. Is, is, is the honest answer.
• 40:20
  And if they didn't, we wouldn't use them.
• 40:21
  But can you weave that to make hypnosis more engaging?
• 40:26
  Well, if it, if it creates motivation and engaging, like
• 40:29
  you're clicking an article that you don't really care about
• 40:31
  because there's a tiny bit of curiosity, well, that kind of
• 40:35
  principle probably would work quite well in a hypnotherapeutic
• 40:39
  session as well. So open loops have the ability
• 40:42
  to influence, engage, generate curiosity, inspire them to take
• 40:46
  action. And you know, it can be quite
• 40:50
  compelling. Like I've, I remember I'm, I'm a
• 40:52
  big movie fan, even an average movie.
• 40:57
  Why do I stick to the end? Because there's several open
• 41:00
  loops that, you know, I, most movies will, what kind of they,
• 41:05
  they, they, there's almost like an epilogue.
• 41:07
  They close up a lot of the open. And it's only if there's a
• 41:10
  franchise, particularly Marvel, they close all the loops and
• 41:13
  they open a few at the end to make sure that you watch the
• 41:15
  next movie. You know, it's all, it's all
• 41:17
  psychology, but it, it can be quite powerful.
• 41:20
  And I think that that's why I use a combination of open loops
• 41:24
  and nested loops. And the distinction being an
• 41:26
  open loop is incompleteness and a nested loop is either a level
• 41:30
  of disassociation or a story within a story.
• 41:34
  OK. So they're quite powerful then.
• 41:36
  And how does that improve results have you found?
• 41:40
  Well, I, I, I think, I think one of the ways it does is
• 41:43
  engagement because I remember early hypnosis sessions and I'm
• 41:50
  saying the words at them, but I'm, I'm reading their facial
• 41:53
  expression of almost kind of like the, the micro expression
• 41:58
  of like, has it started yet? Like what's happening?
• 42:01
  And, and I don't get that these days, you know, when I, when I,
• 42:05
  when I, when I weave these, these kind of stories in, they
• 42:08
  seem invested in the story and it, and it almost becomes like
• 42:12
  one of those choose your own adventure books because it's
• 42:16
  calibrated to them and they've got some autonomy.
• 42:19
  And, and this is one of the things that I, I like to do is
• 42:22
  introduce within the nested loops an element of choice.
• 42:25
  It's kind of like, you know, if you think of again, Alice in
• 42:28
  Wonderland, you know, she could eat, you know, one bit of food
• 42:32
  or the other bit of food. But the element that she had
• 42:35
  choice creates this element of agency within the, within the
• 42:41
  things that quite often the levels of disassociation, it
• 42:44
  could be, right. There's 3 doors, but you choose
• 42:46
  which door you go through. And, and again, that tends to
• 42:50
  kind of have them more engaged into the, into the process.
• 42:54
  So that that that's what I've noticed at least.
• 42:58
  Do you give your clients active choice like as you as an asking
• 43:01
  would you like the bread or the cheese?
• 43:04
  What whatever you're giving them a choice.
• 43:06
  I'm sorry. Yeah, you, you, you can do.
• 43:08
  But it's easy to frame that as a double bind because you get to
• 43:11
  decide what the impact of that thing is.
• 43:14
  So in a way, like like a lot of those Choose your own adventure
• 43:17
  books, there's the illusion of choice, but you know, after two
• 43:22
  or three choices, it takes you back to exactly the same kind of
• 43:24
  story arc. So but but it's that element of,
• 43:28
  you know, like, for example, you, you can load the dice and
• 43:33
  if one of the options is the status quo, things happening
• 43:36
  exactly as they are, but you frame it as a decision.
• 43:39
  You can keep on doing things exactly as they've been going,
• 43:42
  knowing exactly where it's going to take you, or you can choose
• 43:44
  to make a change. If you'd like to see what that
• 43:47
  future looks like, let me know by nodding your head.
• 43:50
  They're in front of you. They don't want the status quo.
• 43:52
  Otherwise, why are they, why are they in front of you?
• 43:55
  So you, you get to kind of create a, a catalyst, a
• 43:58
  permission for them to, yeah, kind of come out and, and, and
• 44:03
  kind of have a, a bit of agency. Sometimes I'll make it very
• 44:08
  broad. So if I'm using like, you know,
• 44:12
  like an orchard or a garden with fruit, I'll say that.
• 44:16
  And there is a particular fruit that you want to eat that
• 44:19
  contains a resource that you want.
• 44:21
  And I don't know which one you're going to pick, but I want
• 44:24
  you to make that choice now. So again, you can kind of create
• 44:28
  those kind of choices within them, but that's just that's
• 44:31
  just an element how you can create that as an open loop.
• 44:35
  It could be one, one that I quite like is like like a
• 44:40
  treasure, a treasure trove. And it's kind of like, and there
• 44:44
  is something in there that you're going to choose and it
• 44:46
  contains a resource that's going to be very useful for you later.
• 44:50
  You pick it up, you put it in your pocket, but you don't know
• 44:53
  exactly what resource that's going to give you until your
• 44:57
  unconscious reveals it through some kind of epiphany or
• 44:59
  insight. And that will come later.
• 45:01
  But now the open loop is a post hypnotic suggestion that they're
• 45:04
  going to get some kind of realization.
• 45:06
  But you can weave that within the the storylines of the of the
• 45:10
  session. Right.
• 45:12
  So when, when you go down the levels of dissociation, I'm I'm
• 45:17
  just going down in my head. Do does do the later levels of
• 45:22
  dissociation, do they hold more weight for the client?
• 45:26
  Would you? Would you build something more
• 45:27
  into that or the more important subject to solve?
• 45:33
  I think it depends. And, and there's a couple of
• 45:36
  frameworks that I, I kind of use if it's kind of for, for those
• 45:40
  familiar with Robert Dilt's logical levels, you know, early,
• 45:45
  you know, kind of influencer of, of kind of NLP.
• 45:48
  You've got this idea that, you know, at the extremities, you've
• 45:51
  got environment and, and behaviour.
• 45:53
  And then it's kind of thoughts, beliefs, you know, values and,
• 45:57
  and identity. So a helpful framework that I
• 46:00
  find is that at the lower levels, it's more useful for
• 46:03
  making identity level changes about who they are at their,
• 46:07
  their core. And, and most people can kind of
• 46:09
  connect to that. If, if they just kind of say an
• 46:13
  affirmation at themself in the mirror, OK, that's not a
• 46:16
  particularly deep experience. That affirmation is probably
• 46:19
  going to be more likely to be effective if it's about your
• 46:22
  behaviour of what you're going to do right now.
• 46:24
  If something is really, if you, if you just say in the in the
• 46:27
  mirror, you know, I'm unstoppable, you you might not
• 46:30
  feel that the same way that you can say, you know, I'm going to
• 46:33
  smile right now. Like so behavioral.
• 46:35
  So what I tend to do is a broad thing is that the more identity
• 46:39
  in the value stuff tend to be like further in the in the
• 46:43
  deeper levels of disassociation around the mid level belief
• 46:46
  systems. And I'll always try and work at
• 46:48
  belief systems over behavior because behavior.
• 46:53
  I I liken that to post hypnotic suggestions in the stage
• 46:57
  hypnosis show like that. It's not the idea isn't that
• 46:59
  they're going to last forever. It's kind of like a temporary
• 47:01
  thing where is if someone believes something, quite often
• 47:05
  the behaviors will naturally flow from that that belief
• 47:07
  system. So for me, I tend to kind of
• 47:11
  have the belief systems in the middle.
• 47:13
  If the change that they're making is, is kind of something
• 47:17
  they don't fully understand, I tend to do at deeper levels.
• 47:20
  If it's something that they're kind of aware of, it might be
• 47:23
  closer to the to the top, but I don't, I don't really kind of
• 47:27
  mathematically structure this. It's just kind of intuitive, but
• 47:31
  I think there is a use for things that they're either very
• 47:34
  resistance to generally at parts therapy, for example, in a child
• 47:38
  work, I tend to do that, you know, at around like 3 or 4
• 47:42
  levels of disassociation rather than kind of five or six.
• 47:46
  But if it is like real stuff about there's a fundamental
• 47:49
  change in terms of the identity that they're activating or
• 47:52
  discarding, that in my experience tends to be more
• 47:56
  effective if it's it's kind of more levels of disassociation.
• 48:01
  So do you take, do you have a specific number of levels you
• 48:05
  take your clients down or for specific issues of how, how
• 48:09
  would you decide? OK, today I'll go 10 as a.
• 48:13
  As a kind of. Random number.
• 48:15
  I think, I think the only reason to do that is if, if it's become
• 48:20
  a challenge to to do that. And I remember, I remember on
• 48:24
  one particular session, I, I set myself the challenge of how many
• 48:29
  levels of disassociation can I, can I get?
• 48:33
  And I think it was like 15. And you know, I, I, I, I think,
• 48:38
  I think I will attempt just because it would be a good thing
• 48:43
  for like a potential like viral video to say, right, can you do
• 48:47
  like 50 levels of disassociation and, and kind of remember all,
• 48:51
  you know, something like that. But in all honesty, you get
• 48:55
  diminishing returns after about four or five.
• 48:57
  So if you're doing loads and loads like, why introduce the
• 49:00
  additional complexity? If you're getting Commission
• 49:03
  returns on the value, probably not much unless, unless it's an
• 49:06
  ego thing and you want to like, you know, I'm going to do 12
• 49:11
  levels of disassociation, like, OK, good for you.
• 49:14
  But you know, does it benefit the client more?
• 49:17
  Yeah, no, So what, what's usually the best way 5 or 6 is
• 49:22
  that, I mean, you've, you've got more experience in nested loops
• 49:25
  I suppose than anyone on this call.
• 49:28
  So what when do you find does the the value go away of
• 49:33
  introducing more levels? Well, how do you tell by on a
• 49:37
  client? In a well, I think I, I, I think
• 49:39
  the element is the the key metric of success should be the
• 49:44
  client in front of you. So if you're testing for, for
• 49:47
  changes, if you're, you know, getting a sense of what does it
• 49:53
  take, you know, and, and sometimes you can do that if
• 49:56
  they, if they feel anxious in a particular situation and you're
• 50:00
  5 levels deep and you say right now think of that spider, try
• 50:03
  and think of, try and feel anxious if you can and, and they
• 50:08
  can't, what's the value of taking them another two or three
• 50:12
  levels? I saw a message there from Steve
• 50:14
  with the, the Mike Mandel's kind of keynote.
• 50:20
  And you know, it, it's been, you know, at least three or four
• 50:24
  years since I've, I've heard the recording of that.
• 50:27
  And I can still remember, I can still picture the scene of the,
• 50:30
  of the child throwing one more starfish back into the ocean.
• 50:33
  And it's been years since I've heard that.
• 50:35
  Like that's, that's the power of a good nested loop session, Mike
• 50:39
  and, and, and Mike is how I learnt the linguistic way of
• 50:42
  doing nested loops. But he he has a little tactic
• 50:46
  that he does where he will take them back to a loop that they
• 50:51
  haven't actually experienced to give them the idea that they're
• 50:54
  experiencing amnesia, that they can't remember the original
• 50:57
  level. That's a nice touch, like, you
• 50:59
  know, to explain. Sorry.
• 51:02
  So, so, so let's let's say for example, that level 1 is a beach
• 51:06
  and level 2 is a cinema. And then I, I take you back in
• 51:10
  reverse order and then say, and now you're on the beach.
• 51:13
  And then you climb up the ladder to that tree house where you
• 51:17
  remember all along. Now there was no tree house in
• 51:20
  the original beginning of the nested loop.
• 51:22
  So to now introduce an extra level when there wasn't one,
• 51:25
  they're like, I can't remember the tree house.
• 51:27
  And then it can be framed to be this kind of extra.
• 51:30
  Oh, wow. Like that must have been really
• 51:32
  deep because I can't even remember the tree house the
• 51:34
  first time. So it's a it's a nice, a nice
• 51:37
  touch. And I think Mike, anyone wanting
• 51:38
  to learn the traditional way of doing nested loops, I think Mike
• 51:41
  Mandel is excellent with that. Wonderful.
• 51:45
  Yeah, we've got some comments here.
• 51:47
  Sorry, I'm a bit, it's a bit late now.
• 51:49
  So zygonic effect, I guess that's the open loops and
• 51:53
  somebody says how to look that up to close the loop because the
• 51:56
  zygonic effect is. Do you know what that is, Adam?
• 52:00
  I I'm not familiar with it, I'm I'm going to have to.
• 52:02
  There's an open loop there for me too now.
• 52:04
  There you go, everybody look it up when you're when you're done.
• 52:09
  And the meta pattern, yeah, that's the disassociate
• 52:12
  associated to the problem, disassociate, etcetera.
• 52:15
  That's what that is. And then Guy says, very much as
• 52:18
  Freddie Jackman says of hypnosis.
• 52:20
  Evoke an emotion, give a suggestion.
• 52:23
  Yeah, and, and after doing the, the talk on nested loops at the
• 52:26
  Irish Hypnosis conference, Freddie was talking about some
• 52:31
  training and, and sessions that he does that uses this idea of
• 52:34
  kind of architecture and, and, and it, and it was exactly like
• 52:38
  levels of disassociation. So you kind of in one thing and
• 52:42
  that and that, and that could be anything.
• 52:44
  It could be you're seeing a picture, you climb inside the
• 52:45
  picture and inside the picture you see a doorway.
• 52:47
  And at the end of the doorway there's a door.
• 52:49
  And each time you go through one level, it's an extra level of,
• 52:52
  of disassociation. So it has parallels with nested
• 52:55
  loops, but it also has parallels of, of just thinking, right.
• 52:58
  Can you give a new threshold to take them to somewhere new?
• 53:02
  And that's how you can easily get to kind of 2150 kind of
• 53:06
  things. It's not whether whether or not
• 53:08
  you can do it or not. It's kind of like, is there any
• 53:11
  additional value at doing something at 21 levels deep that
• 53:14
  you can't do at 7:00? That would be my my way of
• 53:17
  thinking about it. And if there isn't, well then
• 53:20
  now it's just becomes, you know, a Dick measuring contest.
• 53:23
  For the sake of. More levels.
• 53:25
  But you know, do do you need that?
• 53:29
  Right. So before I say anything else,
• 53:33
  guys, if you have questions, please ask them because we're
• 53:38
  going to be finishing. And within the next 10-15
• 53:41
  minutes I think about Bluna. Bluna Zeigenich, Lithuanian
• 53:45
  psychologist, noticed waiters remembered clients that had not
• 53:48
  yet paid their bills far better than clients that had paid.
• 53:52
  And oh, Carmen is asking at a metaphors from movies.
• 53:55
  What if a movie opens or triggers A wound for the client?
• 53:59
  Or a metaphor? Yeah, and and that's more
• 54:01
  dangerous if if you're doing it to large audiences.
• 54:07
  So at at hypno thoughts, not hypno thoughts.
• 54:10
  At the UK Hypnosis Conference, I used the phrase helter skelter,
• 54:15
  which in the UK means one of those kind of fairground rides,
• 54:18
  a slide that kind of goes round. And I think it was Frederick Mao
• 54:23
  came up and he said like, you know, his association that was
• 54:27
  the kind of Charlie Manson kind of killers, the kind of healthy.
• 54:30
  And it didn't even kind of make that connection to me at all.
• 54:34
  What, what, what I would say common is that when I'm working
• 54:38
  one-on-one, if I'm using a movie metaphor, I'm testing the water
• 54:43
  with the client beforehand or I'm noticing stuff.
• 54:46
  And I remember using a Doctor Who metaphor for a client.
• 54:50
  And it was because the client that I was working with, I could
• 54:54
  see like Doctor Who posters and all kind of mini TARDIS on, on
• 54:59
  the wall behind them. And it's kind of like that's
• 55:01
  going to be very safe. As you know, the TARDIS is a
• 55:04
  level of disassociation. It also has the connotation that
• 55:07
  you can go through space and time.
• 55:08
  So you can do timeline stuff. But if I, if I just gambled and
• 55:12
  say TARDIS to someone that isn't familiar with Doctor Who,
• 55:16
  they're not going to know you're going to break the poor
• 55:20
  instantly. So you have to kind of test this
• 55:21
  kind of stuff, whereas you can take the structure of the
• 55:26
  metaphor. One of my favorite structural
• 55:28
  metaphors from movies is the hero's journey.
• 55:31
  And, and, and one of the things I like about the hero's journey
• 55:34
  is this idea that whatever breakthrough you make will be
• 55:39
  tested. And that could be courage, that
• 55:42
  could be self belief, that could be confidence, that could be a
• 55:45
  change in behavior. That's the smoker that becomes a
• 55:47
  non-smoker in the hero's journey, right Then meeting
• 55:51
  them. Nemesis is going back to, you
• 55:56
  know, hanging out with their friends and they get offered a
• 55:57
  cigarette while they're while they're tipsy.
• 56:00
  It's kind of like that's the test and the true evidence of
• 56:03
  the change isn't the change we make in the session.
• 56:06
  It's that it will be tested in in reality.
• 56:09
  Now that's that's a structural metaphor rather than a specific
• 56:12
  movie because Lord of the Rings has the hero's journey.
• 56:16
  You know, John Wick has the hero like so many movies have that
• 56:20
  blue structure. So if you want to be safe and
• 56:22
  not be specific, you want to be like movie agnostic.
• 56:25
  It's it's themes, overcoming adversity, meeting the nemesis
• 56:30
  and the nemesis could just be a conflicted part within themself,
• 56:33
  you know, or, or whatever it might be, you know, a coping
• 56:37
  mechanism, but but keep it broad.
• 56:40
  Yeah. Would you do parts in a session
• 56:41
  in in one of the levels? Oh, yeah, yeah, I, I, I love
• 56:45
  parts. And you know, you can, you can
• 56:47
  use, you can use kind of parts that use some modality kind of
• 56:51
  shifts. So you could like imagine the
• 56:53
  part, you know, give it a physical representation and it
• 56:56
  might be someone looking very timid.
• 56:58
  You could kind of say that one of the one of the places I used
• 57:01
  to do a lot of parts therapy is they're on the beach.
• 57:04
  And then you say, right, And you notice a little shack on the
• 57:07
  beach, a wooden shack. And you go up and then and you
• 57:10
  and you have them waiting outside the shack.
• 57:12
  And when you go in, the part responsible for whatever it is
• 57:16
  is going to be waiting there and then you open up or you allow
• 57:19
  them in and then you invite the part in.
• 57:22
  So you can do that. If it's visual elements, one of
• 57:27
  the questions sometimes I get asked is, you know, more and
• 57:30
  more people are familiar with a Fantasia.
• 57:33
  And because I'm quite visual in my metaphors, it's like, does it
• 57:36
  work? If you've got someone that has
• 57:38
  difficult, has difficulty visualizing, in my experience,
• 57:42
  it's fine, but you've got to be careful with the predicates that
• 57:45
  you use rather than and then you're seeing this.
• 57:48
  It's kind of like I tend to, I'm, I'm lazy in a way.
• 57:51
  So I just use the word imagine rather than see here, you know,
• 57:55
  and that kind of stuff because they, you know, authentic or or
• 57:59
  not, you have an imagination, you know, and Athentasic still
• 58:02
  knows where they put their keys. They've got the ability to
• 58:05
  recall something in three-dimensional space.
• 58:07
  So, you know, utilize that same structure.
• 58:11
  Yeah, wonderful. We've got several more
• 58:12
  questions, but I would like to go just back to testing.
• 58:16
  You said something a while back about testing at the deepest
• 58:21
  level, at the identity level. Is that correct?
• 58:23
  Yeah, so I, I, I think the, the, the timid hypnotist hopes their
• 58:30
  work is going to work and then they won't even ask.
• 58:35
  Like, do you notice a change? Can you try and recall that
• 58:37
  emotion? It's just kind of like, OK,
• 58:39
  here's some homework, go away. And then, and then that I think,
• 58:43
  I think it's, it's a confident presupposition.
• 58:47
  If you, if you're testing the result when I was working with
• 58:50
  phobics, I would, I would want them, you know, if they're
• 58:54
  afraid of smile, I'd want them to attempt to hold a tarantula,
• 58:57
  you know, And I, and I think a lot of those things now, how I
• 59:01
  like to test that is in a form of future pacing.
• 59:04
  Rather than say you will see the future version of you doing
• 59:07
  exactly what you want. I would say there's this element
• 59:11
  of, of saying, right. And now when you think of the
• 59:13
  future, what's different? And that has a presupposition
• 59:17
  that there is a change in that, you know, and the thing that's
• 59:20
  derailed you in the past. Now when you think of the future
• 59:24
  version of that self, how does it deal with it differently is a
• 59:27
  nice suggestion. And then if it's successful,
• 59:30
  because all of these things like everyone has good intentions in
• 59:33
  the moment, but you want to future pace it contextually to
• 59:36
  the environment where they are. So then it's a case of right, If
• 59:39
  they, if they are able to kind of avoid the pitfall that
• 59:42
  they've fallen in many times before from a disassociated, why
• 59:46
  not associate that And then imagine they're in a first
• 59:49
  person perspective. The very thing happens that has
• 59:52
  kind of derailed them before and now is it different?
• 59:55
  And nod your head if it's different, shake your head if it
• 59:57
  isn't, and if it isn't, you go back and find a different
• 1:00:00
  version so that you can. There's a great phrase in
• 1:00:03
  science, which is in vivo and in vitro in the test tube and in in
• 1:00:08
  reality, in my mind, like you want to test the work inside
• 1:00:13
  their own imagination 1st and then set the homework to be
• 1:00:17
  right. The homework isn't to make sure
• 1:00:20
  you do this thing because that's just another thing they have to
• 1:00:22
  do is make a note. The next time you're in this
• 1:00:25
  situation, note down what happens.
• 1:00:27
  It has a presupposition that there will be a positive change,
• 1:00:30
  but you're not giving them something to do because they've
• 1:00:32
  already tried to use, you know, all the shoulds and the
• 1:00:35
  structure and all of that kind of stuff.
• 1:00:36
  So it's, it's a, it's a good idea to test it within their
• 1:00:41
  internal experience 1st and then encourage them to test it in
• 1:00:43
  reality. Because then it gives them the
• 1:00:46
  connotation almost of a post hypnotic suggestion that when
• 1:00:50
  they're in that context, something's going to be
• 1:00:51
  different than it normally is. Yeah.
• 1:00:55
  Do you use any anchoring? I, I, I don't think you cannot
• 1:00:59
  use anchoring. I think you know anchoring you
• 1:01:02
  know is the NLNLP version of kind of conditioning or or some
• 1:01:08
  lots of people like using the word triggers a lot these you
• 1:01:12
  know. It's.
• 1:01:13
  All of those kind of things. And I think that's why the very
• 1:01:16
  first level of disassociation, I want to be in a place where they
• 1:01:19
  have positive experience because I'm trying to anchor resourceful
• 1:01:23
  states, the, the, the classic anchoring of finger and thumb
• 1:01:28
  together. When you think of that, I don't
• 1:01:30
  tend to do very much of that. I, I tend to use because I love
• 1:01:33
  using mnemonics. What I will use is go back to a
• 1:01:36
  time where you felt really, really resourceful.
• 1:01:40
  And then, and then I'll say, right, Make sure that version of
• 1:01:43
  you disassociated has that resource.
• 1:01:45
  See yourself with courage, see yourself with discipline.
• 1:01:47
  When you're absolutely certain, let me know by nodding your
• 1:01:49
  head, they nod your head, step into that.
• 1:01:51
  Where do you feel that courage in your body and, and normally
• 1:01:54
  courage they normally place around the chest or the OR the
• 1:01:57
  heart? And I say, right, imagine a
• 1:01:58
  three-dimensional shape in that specific place, You know, does
• 1:02:02
  it spin? Does it, does it glow?
• 1:02:04
  You know, all the submodality stuffs.
• 1:02:06
  Give it a sound connected, you know, think of a posture that
• 1:02:09
  you are naturally. And when you feel that way,
• 1:02:12
  that's what I want to anchor. I want the anchors to be organic
• 1:02:15
  and natural, but then they can add to it.
• 1:02:17
  If they think of that shape moving in that way, feeling in
• 1:02:20
  that way, that can be a nice additional.
• 1:02:23
  But for, for me, specificity is the key thing to make an anchor
• 1:02:26
  work. And unfortunately, like, you
• 1:02:29
  know, too many people will use this kind of finger and thumb
• 1:02:32
  thing or, or the clench fist for too many things.
• 1:02:35
  Actual anchors will be something slightly different.
• 1:02:38
  That will be, you know, someone gives them a look or, you know,
• 1:02:42
  they're in a particular context. And, and anchors are a lot of
• 1:02:45
  things, particularly when people are faced with habits and, and
• 1:02:48
  kind of behavioural things. It's, it's the trigger that
• 1:02:51
  causes them to to feel that way. So we want to kind of change
• 1:02:55
  that element. Right, so now we've got a lot of
• 1:02:59
  questions here. Love your creativity, Adam, says
• 1:03:03
  Steve. That's true Steve.
• 1:03:06
  Thank you. What is the best way to
• 1:03:08
  structure and safely close nested loops so that the client
• 1:03:11
  stays oriented and the suggestion ends lands ethically?
• 1:03:15
  Once. Yeah, it's a question.
• 1:03:17
  So I mentioned the kind of Hansel and Gretel metaphor.
• 1:03:22
  One way of doing it is that you go back in reverse order and
• 1:03:25
  then the mnemonics help you know where you are in that location.
• 1:03:28
  So if you're, if level 6 is a hologram of seeing your future
• 1:03:35
  self, well, then you leave that hologram and then you go back to
• 1:03:38
  the next level up through whichever device got you there.
• 1:03:41
  So if they arrived there on a fireman's pole, climb up the
• 1:03:45
  fireman's pole. If it went through a door, have
• 1:03:47
  them go back through the door. You want to keep the, the way
• 1:03:49
  that they got there, because that becomes your bread crumbs
• 1:03:52
  to enable you to, to find your way back.
• 1:03:55
  You know, so that that that's a useful way of thinking about it.
• 1:03:59
  There is a get out of jail free card that I have though that and
• 1:04:03
  sometimes people think like what happens if you can't go back in
• 1:04:07
  the specific order and close all the loops and, and it's kind of
• 1:04:11
  like, OK, it's not ideal to do that, but it isn't going to ruin
• 1:04:15
  the client if you do like you've heard a bit of gossip and never
• 1:04:20
  got the answer as to what actually happened.
• 1:04:22
  You've seen a cliffhanger and then never saw the next episode.
• 1:04:27
  We don't die. If there's an open loop that
• 1:04:29
  never gets closed like so it's not, it's not detrimental, it's
• 1:04:34
  just if you can do it, great. Unless you specifically want the
• 1:04:37
  open loop to create a post hypnotic suggestion.
• 1:04:41
  So you might say and the the realization or the insight will
• 1:04:47
  either come to you now or it will come to you when you very
• 1:04:50
  least expect it. OK, well, now we've, we've got
• 1:04:53
  an open loop because if it hasn't come to them in that
• 1:04:55
  moment, there's now an open loop.
• 1:04:56
  The open loop is they're going to get some kind of valuable
• 1:04:58
  insight coming their way. And, and if they do great, that
• 1:05:03
  becomes confirmation bias. And if they never do, they'll
• 1:05:06
  just forget about it. But but my, my kind of elements
• 1:05:11
  of let's say I get out of jail free card, to use a monopoly
• 1:05:15
  metaphor, is a phrase which is something along the lines of and
• 1:05:21
  then you realize that all of this is just thoughts within
• 1:05:24
  thoughts, dreams within dreams, ideas within ideas.
• 1:05:27
  And your unconscious is willing to take all of that back into
• 1:05:31
  the here and now. And when you're ready, let me
• 1:05:34
  know. So you can kind of do that.
• 1:05:35
  And it's almost like a catch all to to kind of mean that you
• 1:05:38
  don't have to kind of remember every single kind of thing
• 1:05:43
  because some people, some people won't get every single kind of
• 1:05:48
  open loop close. But I think if again, if you
• 1:05:51
  make it that you feel like you have to kind of go back in
• 1:05:55
  exactly the reverse order. One of the things I like to do,
• 1:06:00
  and I did it recently with the hypnosis session is you can make
• 1:06:04
  the nested loop circular rather than require it goes back in
• 1:06:09
  reverse order. So it it was, it was there was a
• 1:06:18
  guy in his first level of disassociation was the, was the
• 1:06:21
  forest. So rather than kind of level 1,
• 1:06:24
  level 2, Level 3, level 4, and at the end go back in reverse
• 1:06:28
  order. At the end, there was a way to
• 1:06:30
  kind of get back to the forest, see himself with all the changes
• 1:06:33
  that he made. So I just made it circular
• 1:06:35
  rather than reverse order. And the expression on the face,
• 1:06:38
  because he wasn't expecting it was just kind of like, you know,
• 1:06:41
  it's kind of like you get to see yourself from the perspective of
• 1:06:44
  of someone else. So most how it how it's taught
• 1:06:47
  normally is you go, you go in reverse order with nested loops
• 1:06:51
  and you close all the loops on the way back.
• 1:06:54
  You don't have to do that. And you and you can just kind
• 1:06:56
  of, you could use an element of it's a floating disassociation.
• 1:07:02
  You hover up over yourself and as you go back, see all of the
• 1:07:05
  previous levels that you've been in, go back to the beginning,
• 1:07:09
  you know, allow your mind to close any, any unfinished
• 1:07:11
  business and then kind of arrive.
• 1:07:13
  So there's, there's ways of doing it.
• 1:07:15
  I remember a couple of clients where there, there was a fire
• 1:07:18
  alarm that took place and, and I just, there was no way that I
• 1:07:21
  could have the time to kind of to do that.
• 1:07:24
  So that phrase of, you know, you realize that all of this is
• 1:07:29
  just, and that nominalization of just, it's just that what's
• 1:07:32
  within thoughts, ideas within ideas, basically in the same way
• 1:07:36
  that when you wake up from a dream, there's normally open
• 1:07:38
  loops in a dream. Don't ruin your day.
• 1:07:41
  It might be a really vivid open loop.
• 1:07:43
  And you're like, oh, that's sometimes why people want to get
• 1:07:46
  back to sleep after the, the snooze Button's been pressed
• 1:07:49
  because they, they've got that open loop, but it doesn't
• 1:07:51
  destroy a human if there's an open loop that isn't closed.
• 1:07:54
  It's it's just sometimes a little bit frustrating.
• 1:07:57
  No, I get it. OK, wonderful.
• 1:08:00
  We've got lots of new questions, Dale says.
• 1:08:04
  I believe that client structure, client structure, their problems
• 1:08:06
  as open loops, too much choice or closed loops has to be one
• 1:08:10
  way or another. Do you ever, ever choose to keep
• 1:08:14
  a lot of loops open to give the clients the frame of to discover
• 1:08:17
  new possibilities outside of the session?
• 1:08:21
  Yeah, I, I think there's AI think it's a great point,
• 1:08:25
  though. Firstly, a lot of people are
• 1:08:27
  binary and and they've they've taken all of this kind of like
• 1:08:32
  for for example, like someone's had a a toxic relationship and
• 1:08:35
  they come to the conclusion of all men are bad.
• 1:08:39
  No men can be trusted. Why?
• 1:08:40
  Because it gives certainty it it, you know, you don't have all
• 1:08:43
  this nuance, you don't have that cognitive challenge of figuring
• 1:08:46
  out. It's just it's simple based on
• 1:08:49
  on kind of what things are so completely greed, Dale.
• 1:08:52
  Some people deliberately will engineer the belief systems to
• 1:08:55
  have certainty through closed loops.
• 1:08:57
  And other people feel overwhelmed because everything
• 1:09:01
  feels like the head of a hydra that whenever you chop one head
• 1:09:03
  off, like two more heads grow. And it's like, how do you ever
• 1:09:06
  do that? And I think a lot of anxiety
• 1:09:08
  comes from too many open loops. If you are asking yourself a
• 1:09:13
  what if question and that what if is something horrible
• 1:09:16
  happening, what many people do is they jump into the future and
• 1:09:20
  try and deal with a situation that can't be resolved because
• 1:09:23
  it's not actually real. And every time they deal with
• 1:09:26
  that situation, more nuances come up in that and it can
• 1:09:30
  create a lot of things. So I think Dale's absolutely
• 1:09:33
  right. Like open loops can be a cause
• 1:09:34
  of, of issues and, and, and, and I think closed loops can also do
• 1:09:38
  that. It depends if if someone is
• 1:09:41
  fixated like there only has to be one way and that's the
• 1:09:43
  problem creating choice and possibility is that is that way.
• 1:09:48
  One of the metaphors that I quite like to give people an
• 1:09:52
  idea that there is more choice is the idea of a multiverse.
• 1:09:56
  And I say just imagine that there are infinite other
• 1:09:59
  versions of you and let's visit the one that's already figured
• 1:10:02
  this out. And that has the connotation of
• 1:10:04
  every single variation that possibly could exist of them.
• 1:10:08
  Someone's already found a way and then we can kind of go to
• 1:10:10
  that. Now you can use that within a
• 1:10:12
  nested loop. You could use A4 dimensional
• 1:10:15
  device like a wormhole. Let's visit a different reality.
• 1:10:18
  But this is you. It's your genetics.
• 1:10:21
  It's virtually your background. But one key thing is different.
• 1:10:23
  They've already resolved this issue.
• 1:10:25
  Let's see what they did to get to that point.
• 1:10:27
  And, and it gives them the, it gives them permission to not
• 1:10:31
  make it about them and carry all of that shame and kind of
• 1:10:34
  connotation. They get to have this element
• 1:10:36
  of, OK, if there was infinite versions of me, of course, one
• 1:10:40
  version of me has already resolved this.
• 1:10:43
  And then they can get insight and inspiration.
• 1:10:45
  But it's easier to do from a disassociated state than an
• 1:10:47
  associated state. And, and I would agree with
• 1:10:50
  that. Sometimes opening loops is
• 1:10:53
  exactly what's you know what, what is excitement.
• 1:10:55
  If it isn't an open loop, the thing hasn't happened yet.
• 1:10:59
  You know, this idea that open loops have to be bad is, is
• 1:11:02
  ridiculous. You know, it's it's, you know,
• 1:11:05
  and positive anticipation is an open loop.
• 1:11:08
  Also, anxiety can be an open loop of that thing's happening
• 1:11:12
  and and it hasn't quite had the resolution that you want.
• 1:11:15
  So it's like, what's going to happen here?
• 1:11:18
  Wonderful. So I lots of chat in the chat.
• 1:11:25
  OK, where do we have more questions?
• 1:11:26
  If you have more questions, ask them.
• 1:11:27
  Now we have to finish up in a minute.
• 1:11:30
  I have a great metaphor about the Sr. 71 Blackbird versus the
• 1:11:34
  English electric lighting. Oh God.
• 1:11:35
  Steve, please, please share. OK.
• 1:11:39
  No, we're going to leave that walking around the lake.
• 1:11:43
  OK, right. I think we are finished with
• 1:11:46
  questions. Adam, I have a question and that
• 1:11:50
  is if you had to give advice to a newbie hypnotist, what would
• 1:11:54
  that be? So one of my favorite metaphors
• 1:11:57
  for learning hypnosis is nobody learns to swim by reading a
• 1:12:03
  book, but you have to jump in the pool.
• 1:12:05
  And you know, one, one thing I was fortunate enough to do when
• 1:12:10
  I became a hypnotherapist, I could, I could see people that
• 1:12:13
  did the same course with me and they were fixated on their
• 1:12:16
  website and business cards and those kind of things.
• 1:12:18
  And I just wanted to work with more clients.
• 1:12:21
  So I would say if you want to learn to swim, jump in the pool.
• 1:12:23
  If you want to be a good hypnotist, see more clients is
• 1:12:26
  the is my advice. Wonderful.
• 1:12:30
  And you have a training coming up, I believe, at Hypnothoughts
• 1:12:34
  Live. About.
• 1:12:36
  Nested loops. Yeah.
• 1:12:38
  So it's it's this kind of stuff, but rather than the theory, it's
• 1:12:41
  going to be very practical. So it's going to be right.
• 1:12:44
  How do we in real time struck to this?
• 1:12:46
  So it becomes, you know, a skill at the either conscious
• 1:12:50
  competence level or unconscious competence level rather than
• 1:12:53
  more knowledge that should set intentions as to what you're
• 1:12:56
  actually going to do. So we want to actually develop
• 1:12:58
  the skills in there in the day rather than just more knowledge
• 1:13:02
  like as hypnotist, like there's so much knowledge out there and
• 1:13:06
  somebody thinking, oh, should I do that?
• 1:13:07
  Should I do that? But if it's a skill thing, then
• 1:13:10
  we want your intuition to be there.
• 1:13:12
  The the kind of, you know, almost like in control of when
• 1:13:16
  you use it, when it's relevant. And I would say I use nested
• 1:13:20
  loops a lot. I don't use it in every session.
• 1:13:22
  Sometimes it's not relevant. So you want to have the option
• 1:13:25
  without the obligation to use it.
• 1:13:27
  So hit my thoughts live finishes on the Sunday and then my one
• 1:13:32
  day training is on the Monday. All about actually learning this
• 1:13:36
  at the at the skill level. Wonderful.
• 1:13:40
  Denise says this has been awesome.
• 1:13:41
  Thanks so much, Andy, Adam and Astra after that, yeah, there
• 1:13:47
  you go. Love this.
• 1:13:48
  Thanks Adam. So there's there's lots of
• 1:13:50
  thanks coming in. No online course as of yet.
• 1:13:53
  Are you planning one or? Yeah, I'm, I'm, I'm going to be
• 1:13:56
  creating courses. So I'll, I'll, I'll definitely
• 1:13:58
  share that in there in, in the future.
• 1:14:00
  And if anyone, if anyone wants to hear some of my stuff, like
• 1:14:03
  particularly some of the levels of disassociation, I have a
• 1:14:06
  podcast called The Hypnotist. It's on Spotify, it's on Apple,
• 1:14:10
  it's on YouTube, and you can find that and there's loads and
• 1:14:13
  loads of examples of me actually doing this rather than kind of
• 1:14:16
  talking about it. Wonderful.
• 1:14:18
  Now we're going to put all the details into the comments and
• 1:14:22
  into the show notes as usual. And the replay of this will be
• 1:14:26
  going on YouTube, I guess, tomorrow.
• 1:14:29
  So wonderful to have you all here, all the participants.
• 1:14:34
  And Adam, especially wonderful to have you.
• 1:14:36
  It was really interesting. Thank you so much for joining me
• 1:14:42
  on today's episode of The Hypnotist.
• 1:14:44
  If you've enjoyed this episode or got some value from it,
• 1:14:48
  please give it a five star rating and review.
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  so they can also get the benefit too.
• 1:15:02
  And if you would like to listen to this episode where it's just
• 1:15:06
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  regular listener of The Hypnotist and I'll see you again
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  soon for more.