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MOM LINDSAY CLANCY: 3 TOTS DEAD, SECRET DIARY · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

0:00
Speaker 1: A so called devoted mom. Lindsey Clancy, her three tots
0:05
Speaker 1: found strangle dead with mommy's exercise bands tonight her secret diary,
0:11
Speaker 1: Good evening, I Meancy Grace, this is crime Stories. I
0:14
Speaker 1: want to thank you for being with us. Mommy's exercise
0:24
Speaker 1: bands were used to strangle the three children.
0:31
Speaker 2: She was aware of some of the troubles Lindsay was having,
0:35
Speaker 2: and she was aware that Lindsay was having maybe some
0:39
Speaker 2: darker thoughts. And then when asked on the stand, was
0:44
Speaker 2: Lindsey Clancy emotional, she said no, there were no tears.
0:50
Speaker 3: Summer's Street was from the police alary off the top
0:54
Speaker 3: floor of the house. Player earth as well and neck
0:57
Speaker 3: injuries that collaboration. She's conscious at this time. We're gonna
1:01
Speaker 3: check with my plate, who's over twenty football.
1:04
Speaker 4: It's unknown where the knife is or whatever she used
1:08
Speaker 4: to sweat her. She's in the looks like the opinion
1:14
Speaker 4: are on the back. We'll get that info.
1:17
Speaker 5: She didn't use a knife at first.
1:19
Speaker 6: Unknown where that is at this time. I ambulance.
1:26
Speaker 3: I'm on the way where with the county and as
1:35
Speaker 3: the two pediatrics arrests were got mutilate on the way,
1:39
Speaker 3: mutuallyate at this.
1:40
Speaker 1: Time, you're hearing parts of the nine on one dispatch call.
1:45
Speaker 1: After three little talks, one an infant all found strangled
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Speaker 1: dead by mommy with her own exercise bands. Now we
1:58
Speaker 1: all know the stress chy nature of exercise bands or
2:03
Speaker 1: bungee cords. Imagine the force and exertion required. It's like
2:08
Speaker 1: strangling someone with a rubber band. How hard she had
2:13
Speaker 1: to pull the exercise cords in order to murder her
2:19
Speaker 1: own children. And tonight we find out that one of
2:24
Speaker 1: the first things that comes out of her mouth when
2:29
Speaker 1: she's in the hospital, she's taken off the ventilator, she says,
2:36
Speaker 1: do I have a lawyer? Okay? Straight out to Randy
2:41
Speaker 1: Kesser joining us, a veteran trial lawyer, professor at the
2:44
Speaker 1: Emery Law School, former chair of the ABA Family Law
2:49
Speaker 1: Section for the entire American Bar Association, author of Divorce,
2:53
Speaker 1: Protect Yourself, your Kids, and your future. Randy, the reason
3:00
Speaker 1: I am emphasizing the force and exertion necessary to strangle
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Speaker 1: not one, two, but three children, one of whom we
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Speaker 1: believe ran in fear to his father's basement office. The
3:13
Speaker 1: older boy there you see, callum there, he's just an infant,
3:20
Speaker 1: is akin to the reason I'm bringing it up is
3:25
Speaker 1: because you and I have argued that on different sides
3:28
Speaker 1: of the fence. Of course, in court when it comes
3:29
Speaker 1: to the force necessary to pull a trigger. Remember we
3:36
Speaker 1: just had that come up in court with a veteran
3:40
Speaker 1: and well known lawyer in your jurisdiction that shot his
3:43
Speaker 1: wife dead and he said it was an accident, said
3:47
Speaker 1: that he was sleeping and woke up and went bam
3:50
Speaker 1: and killed his wife. Yeah, that did not work for me.
3:54
Speaker 1: The point is, the force and exertion used to pull
3:58
Speaker 1: a trigger goes two intent, and here we have it
4:03
Speaker 1: intent times three. The force necessary to use those elastic
4:08
Speaker 1: bands to pull them so tightly as they were stretchy
4:13
Speaker 1: and giving that takes a lot of force, a lot
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Speaker 1: of exertion, and a lot of time during which she
4:20
Speaker 1: could have formed intent. Kesser, do you agree with me?
4:24
Speaker 1: You know the law as well as I do that
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Speaker 1: intent to commit a crime, any crime, does not require
4:32
Speaker 1: a long period of planning. Intent can be formed, as
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Speaker 1: our former judge would say Luther Alberson, in the blink
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Speaker 1: of an eye, the twinkling of a moment, in the
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Speaker 1: time it takes you to raise the gun and pull
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Speaker 1: the trigger much less the time it takes you to
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Speaker 1: pull and pull and pull exercise bands to kill them.
4:52
Speaker 1: That's time to form intent.
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Speaker 6: Yes, she had the time to form intent. She had
4:58
Speaker 6: that intent, and she killed the children. But the question,
5:00
Speaker 6: in my opening statement and my closing argument would be
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Speaker 6: she did this because that's the only question the defense
5:09
Speaker 6: can rely on, which is now I No, motive is
5:11
Speaker 6: not a question in front of this jury. But she
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Speaker 6: did this because, and the jury is going to fill
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Speaker 6: that answer that blank in with she was crazy, she
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Speaker 6: was psychotic, she was mentally insane, because there's no other
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Speaker 6: answer to that question. She did this because why she
5:25
Speaker 6: wanted out of the marriage. She wanted There was no
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Speaker 6: other answer that makes as much sense as she did
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Speaker 6: this because she was not mentally capable of making the
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Speaker 6: right decision. That's the only defense the defense has.
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Speaker 1: I think, Randy Kessart, could you hold up your side again,
5:40
Speaker 1: plays I'd like to say that you like my artwork. Okay,
5:46
Speaker 1: I'm very impressed. Okay, I'm impressed that you had your
5:49
Speaker 1: assistant printing that out straight out to Peenny commit, Peeny commit,
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Speaker 1: joining us, The Boston investigative reporter wb Z CBS Boston
6:01
Speaker 1: has covered multiple high profile cases, including this one. Penny commit,
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Speaker 1: thank you for being with us. I'm going to get
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Speaker 1: into all the facts. But answer me this. Riddle me this, Penny.
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Speaker 1: One of the first things that came out of her
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Speaker 1: mouth when she came to and they removed the breathing
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Speaker 1: device was about a lawyer. Isn't that true? What did
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Speaker 1: she say? So?
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Speaker 7: One of her doctors testified that she was actually writing
6:28
Speaker 7: answers on a piece of paper because she had all
6:30
Speaker 7: these tubes in her mouth. She was hooked up to
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Speaker 7: all these different pieces of equipment, and she wrote that
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Speaker 7: she felt horrified, and then she asked where is her family?
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Speaker 7: And then one of the first things she did ask
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Speaker 7: is do I need a lawyer? And that is something
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Speaker 7: that the jurors heard last time.
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Speaker 1: Okay, you are seeing a shot of Lindsey Clancy in
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Speaker 1: the hospital. And the reason I'm showing this Kessler to
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Speaker 1: your delight. She is definitely battered and bruised. She is
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Speaker 1: paralyzed from her jump from her second story window. Some
7:16
Speaker 1: would argue, let's see the shot of the window seal.
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Speaker 1: That blood on the outer edge of the window seal,
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Speaker 1: it's blurred right there. That's the state's exhibit shows that
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Speaker 1: she hung on trying to lessen her fall. Her arms
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Speaker 1: were bleeding. Does that indicate she tried to hold on
7:46
Speaker 1: to lessen her fall? But back to the hospital, Kessler,
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Speaker 1: I'm sure you're gonna have a field day with this.
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Speaker 1: Let me see Kessler please, And Randy, I'm not saying
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Speaker 1: you're wrong. I'm not saying that she was not in
8:02
Speaker 1: postpartum psychosis. I know it's so incredibly rare. And because
8:08
Speaker 1: she immediately asked for a lawyer, and I'm glad Penny
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Speaker 1: Commit told us how she communicated, because it takes a
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Speaker 1: lot more effort to write something than it does to
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Speaker 1: just blurt it out, so she actually had the wherewithal
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Speaker 1: to write lawyer. I mean, wait, pity Commit. Did she
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Speaker 1: ask anything about her children?
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Speaker 7: She asked where her family is and if she can
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Speaker 7: have visitors. But that's all the witness.
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Speaker 1: Has to do. Where is my family? Did she say,
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Speaker 1: did I kill the children? Did they survive? Where are
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Speaker 1: my babies? Anything like that?
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Speaker 7: The doctor did not testify that she wrote.
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Speaker 1: Down on any of those, so that would be a
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Speaker 1: note correct.
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Speaker 7: She wrote, I feel horrified and I have visitors. Where
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Speaker 7: is my family, and then do I need a lawyer?
9:00
Speaker 1: Okay, hold on, Kesser, hold on just a moment, Susan
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Speaker 1: Constantine joining me. Body language expert, jury consultant, Wow, author
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Speaker 1: of five books, including How to Spot a Liar in
9:11
Speaker 1: Seven Seconds or Less. Okay, Susan, I'm not a nonverbal
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Speaker 1: expert like you are. But I did notice that every
9:20
Speaker 1: sentence Penny commitment just said relating what Clancy stated had
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Speaker 1: either I or me or my in it.
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Speaker 8: Yeah, so i'my or my is someone that is very
9:32
Speaker 8: conscious about themselves. But you know, there's a lot of
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Speaker 8: research that's behind those that use ie, me and mine,
9:39
Speaker 8: a lot that are very self absorbed, but also people
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Speaker 8: that do that have high levels of depression because they're
9:45
Speaker 8: always self conscious. But the fact that she was concerned
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Speaker 8: more about herself, not so much about the children, and
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Speaker 8: not really asking about her children is problematic. So the
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Speaker 8: first wars that come out of her mouth is telling
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Speaker 8: you what she's cognitive thinking.
10:00
Speaker 9: And the other thing is I want to make a.
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Speaker 8: Point to is that her reasoning obviously was intact. That
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Speaker 8: she could come out of this situation and actually ask
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Speaker 8: a question or write a question about her and it
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Speaker 8: just shows that she was able to reason, and that
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Speaker 8: really creates some issues for me.
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Speaker 1: So, Susan Constantine, wait a minute, it's like you want
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Speaker 1: your cake on your plate and you want to eat
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Speaker 1: it too, So you want to say me me me me,
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Speaker 1: me me me me me me I I I I
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Speaker 1: my my my mind is a sign of a narcissistic
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Speaker 1: possibly sociopath. On the other hand, it could mean she's
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Speaker 1: really really depressed. Okay, You're gonna have to pick a
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Speaker 1: side here because I need guidance. I need to understand
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Speaker 1: what's happening. Because you and I, we all know that
10:48
Speaker 1: when it comes to postpartum psychosis, only one to two
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Speaker 1: women per thousand actually have psychosis. A lot of people,
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Speaker 1: a lot of women have postpartum depression, and it can
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Speaker 1: be debilitated. But postpart of psychosis means you don't really
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Speaker 1: even know what you're doing. By the way, that video
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Speaker 1: from our friend Nate eating at East Idaho News, so
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Speaker 1: big a sigh, Constantine, I need guidance and that was
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Speaker 1: a little eh wishy washy.
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Speaker 9: Okay, So I'm gonna share with you what the research says. Okay.
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Speaker 8: Doctor James Pennebaker wrote a book about the secret life
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Speaker 8: of pronouns. He talked a lot about the I, me
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Speaker 8: and my, the I, me and my are taking personal ownership,
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Speaker 8: generally speaking, that it's about them. They're asking this is
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Speaker 8: hit them taking personal ownership. But on the flip side
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Speaker 8: of that, what we found in the research is that
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Speaker 8: people that consistently use I, me and my are very
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Speaker 8: self aware. They're they're when talking about narcissistic personality disorder.
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Speaker 8: But so it's not one or the other, Nancy, it's both.
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Speaker 1: Penny Commit joining us investigative reporter WBZ, CBS Boston. What
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Speaker 1: was in her journal?
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Speaker 7: You know what's funny, and this is how it goes
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Speaker 7: every trial, right, the prosecution and the defense focus on
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Speaker 7: very different things. When it came to that journal, the
12:08
Speaker 7: prosecution focused on how Lindsay was exhausted. She was saying
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Speaker 7: how she desperately needs a break. At one point, she
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Speaker 7: wrote in her journal that she feels like she needs
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Speaker 7: a break so badly that her brain is making her
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Speaker 7: body sick. She said, my mind never shuts off. She said,
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Speaker 7: I feel disconnected with my baby. I'm so desperate for
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Speaker 7: a mental break from taking care of everyone. And they
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Speaker 7: focused on, you know, her meticulously documenting her children's sleep schedule,
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Speaker 7: so trying to show that she was a controlling mother.
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Speaker 7: The defense on the other hand, and this goes back
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Speaker 7: to her defense attorney Kevin Reddington, it seems he's taking
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Speaker 7: this case very personally. He reads an excerpt from the
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Speaker 7: diary where she says, I want to be well, and
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Speaker 7: his voice even choked up when he read that. He
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Speaker 7: mentions how she wrote she has horrible insomnia, anxiety. It's
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Speaker 7: causing depression. I want help. I want to be well,
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Speaker 7: and that was a big moment for the Jersey hear.
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Speaker 1: Randy Kessler, I want you to hear what doctor Todd
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Speaker 1: Barr has to say, Doctor Barr joining us out of
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Speaker 1: Ohio forensic pathologist, deputy coroner of Franklin County. That's Columbus.
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Speaker 1: Never a lack of business in the Columbus Morgue featured
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Speaker 1: in thin places essays from in between doctor Barr, I
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Speaker 1: hear a lot in this case, and again, I want
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Speaker 1: the truth. I don't want a witch hunt where she
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Speaker 1: is put behind bars when she truly was in psychosis.
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Speaker 1: On the other hand, I don't want her hiding behind
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Speaker 1: a psychosis claim when she formed intent and committed three
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Speaker 1: murders on her children. Why, I don't care why. I've
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Speaker 1: noticed that when a woman is on trial for murder
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Speaker 1: murder of her children, people's search scour for a motive.
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Speaker 1: It doesn't matter. They're dead, she's alive. No one talks
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Speaker 1: about the children. Nobody. Have you ever heard in the
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Speaker 1: analyses of this case someone talk about what the three
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Speaker 1: children went through before their deaths. They were lured to
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Speaker 1: the basement by mommy, who orchestrated her husband leaving home
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Speaker 1: to go to the furthest Away restaurant, a restaurant they
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Speaker 1: had never gotten take out from before ever, then sent
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Speaker 1: them to I think it was CVS Pharmacy to get
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Speaker 1: a prescription, waited for him to leave to kill the children.
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Speaker 1: There he is wandering around the CVS look looking for
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Speaker 1: whatever the prescription was, which in my world, my world
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Speaker 1: shows intent and pre meditation, Doctor Barr. Back to what
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Speaker 1: the children went through, we have reason to believe they
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Speaker 1: were put face down and strangled from behind, which is
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Speaker 1: a whole other can of worms for our shrink, Doctor
15:13
Speaker 1: Leslie Dobson. But that one of the children, the oldest boy,
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Speaker 1: actually tried to run. That would be Dawson. He was
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Speaker 1: found dead in his father's office, which was also in
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Speaker 1: the basement. What did they endure? What does a human
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Speaker 1: endure when they are strangled, much less face down from
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Speaker 1: behind by their mother who is tightly gripping exercise bands
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Speaker 1: to kill them.
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Speaker 10: Absolute unmitigated terror is what they went through. It may
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Speaker 10: have only lasted for a number of minutes. It takes
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Speaker 10: about ten to fifteen seconds of pressure on the carotid
16:00
Speaker 10: arteries and the jugular veins to prohibit blood flow to
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Speaker 10: and from the brain, which is what causes the hypoxia
16:09
Speaker 10: or the lack of oxygen to the brain. They would
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Speaker 10: become quite dizzy, quite abtunded, almost immediately and within you know,
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Speaker 10: in a typical adult, four to five minutes of lack
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Speaker 10: of oxygen would lead to irreversible brain damage. So anything
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Speaker 10: more than four minutes of a ligature around the neck
16:32
Speaker 10: that's occluding these veins and arteries of the neck is
16:39
Speaker 10: going to render them incapacitated within minutes. I know that
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Speaker 10: the eight month old survived a period of three days,
16:48
Speaker 10: so I'm not sure what the mechanism there was. If
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Speaker 10: she didn't use as much force on the infant so
16:57
Speaker 10: that the baby was able to survive for a period
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Speaker 10: of days. But the other three. It takes about four
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Speaker 10: to six pounds of pressure to close off the jugular
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Speaker 10: veins because they're very thin. It takes about seven to
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Speaker 10: eleven pounds of pressure to close off the corotid arteries.
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Speaker 10: A light banded exercise band has a tenstyle strength of
17:24
Speaker 10: between five and fifteen pounds. And as you stretch those
17:29
Speaker 10: Nancy and I know you were referencing how she's got
17:32
Speaker 10: to pull and pull and pull to tighten these these
17:36
Speaker 10: exercise bands, but as you stretch them, they naturally want
17:40
Speaker 10: to recoil, so she's actually being assisted by the elasticity
17:45
Speaker 10: of the exercise bands to create additional force on the neck.
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Speaker 10: And these are small children, So we usually talk in
17:56
Speaker 10: terms of adults when we use these pressures and and timeframes,
18:01
Speaker 10: but you have to imagine these kids are much smaller
18:04
Speaker 10: than adults, and it would be much easier to cut
18:08
Speaker 10: off their oxygen supply with an exercise band. So to
18:13
Speaker 10: answer your question, in the end, they had several minutes
18:18
Speaker 10: of just sheer panic.
18:22
Speaker 1: What happens to the body and the mind when you
18:27
Speaker 1: are being asphyxiated. Do you just pass out? You don't
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Speaker 1: feel anything? Because in my experience of prosecuting manual and
18:35
Speaker 1: lugature strangulations, I've seen scratches for the victim herself. Scratches, Yes,
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Speaker 1: at her own throat, tried to get the band off,
18:51
Speaker 1: just like deep furrowed scratches. I know that the particular
18:56
Speaker 1: in the eyes burst. What does that feel a lot
19:00
Speaker 1: for your blood vessels and your eyes to blow up? Yeah,
19:05
Speaker 1: it would be for air. Do you just everything goes
19:08
Speaker 1: black and you don't feel anything. What actually happens? What
19:12
Speaker 1: happened to these three children?
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Speaker 10: Yeah? You know, And like I said, again, it's it's
19:19
Speaker 10: absolute terror. And you're correct. We see this very often
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Speaker 10: in ligature or manual strangulations where the victim naturally it's
19:29
Speaker 10: just an innate ability or an innate mechanism to survive
19:35
Speaker 10: that they would reach up and try to pull whatever
19:38
Speaker 10: the offensive element is off of their neck so that
19:41
Speaker 10: they can breathe. I mean, that's just that's getting into
19:44
Speaker 10: your animal brain, your reptilian brain. And when the blood
19:49
Speaker 10: but vessels are bursting and causing petikia, that would feel
19:54
Speaker 10: like a burning sensation because you've got the blood is
19:58
Speaker 10: leaking out through and using these red dots to form
20:01
Speaker 10: all over the face, in the oral mucosa, in the
20:05
Speaker 10: mucosa of the eyes, the conjunctiva, and all of that.
20:09
Speaker 10: It would be like a it would be it would
20:11
Speaker 10: feel like a sunburn almost that you're getting this burning sensation.
20:18
Speaker 1: To Randy Kessler hearing the premeditation, the planning, and what
20:25
Speaker 1: the children endured. And I've seen this in court a
20:29
Speaker 1: million times. Defense attorneys do their very best so the
20:32
Speaker 1: jury doesn't hear what the victims went through. There is
20:35
Speaker 1: no victim in the court room. All the jury sees
20:39
Speaker 1: is the defendant. This defendant is paralyzed from the waist
20:44
Speaker 1: down from jumping out of her window. So they are
20:48
Speaker 1: seeing her looking sympathetic. And I think what happened to
20:54
Speaker 1: the children is getting lost in the sauce, Randy. But
20:57
Speaker 1: I want to hear your response to the effort it
21:01
Speaker 1: took to strangle the children and that some of her
21:04
Speaker 1: first communications were do I have a lawyer?
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Speaker 11: Not?
21:10
Speaker 1: Did my children live? How are my children? What have
21:13
Speaker 1: I done to my children? Is this a horrible dream?
21:16
Speaker 1: Are they dead? Are they alive? But? Do I have
21:19
Speaker 1: a lawyer? I find that to be troublesome, to say
21:23
Speaker 1: the least.
21:25
Speaker 6: And combined with the horrific nature of the murder, no
21:28
Speaker 6: question about it. But all those facts, Nancy, are prejudicial,
21:32
Speaker 6: not provative. Those facts don't need to be said. They're
21:36
Speaker 6: being said to play on the sympathy of the jury.
21:38
Speaker 6: The question, the issue of whether she did this has
21:42
Speaker 6: been answered. She's acknowledged it, she's admitted it. Her lawyer
21:44
Speaker 6: said she did it. Whether she did it and it
21:47
Speaker 6: caused a lot of pain or a little pain, it's horrible.
21:50
Speaker 6: But they're emphasizing how much pain to cause these children,
21:53
Speaker 6: how horrible it was, to get the jury more sympathetic
21:56
Speaker 6: to the victims and more likely to want to punish.
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Speaker 6: But that's not the legal standard. Legal question here is
22:02
Speaker 6: not how bad was it? How much did they suffer?
22:05
Speaker 6: The question is did she do it because she had
22:08
Speaker 6: a mental break, because she was in a state of psychosis.
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Speaker 6: And none of the questions you're raising, none of the
22:13
Speaker 6: issues you're bringing up mitigate or change the fact that
22:18
Speaker 6: if she did it, it was because she was under
22:19
Speaker 6: a state of psychosist. There's no other reason she did
22:21
Speaker 6: not hate the husband.
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Speaker 1: That is absolutely not correct, Kessler. Because she could create
22:28
Speaker 1: a plan intent and then carry out the intent that
22:33
Speaker 1: goes to presence of mind, It goes to frame of mind,
22:37
Speaker 1: course of conduct, so many more aspects that are probative
22:43
Speaker 1: at trial. I appreciate your attempt. Maybe the defense attorney
22:46
Speaker 1: can learn from what you just said. Joining us now.
22:49
Speaker 1: Doctor Leslie Dobson, clinical forensics psychologist, hosts of a brand
22:53
Speaker 1: new podcast on iHeart Intentionally Disturbing and you can find
22:58
Speaker 1: her a Doctor Leslie Dobson dot com, author of The
23:03
Speaker 1: Friend plans how to set boundaries with energy vampires. Doctor
23:09
Speaker 1: Leslie weigh in.
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Speaker 11: I think she was floridly psychotic, and you cannot convince
23:15
Speaker 11: me otherwise. We have a violence free history, a happy mother,
23:20
Speaker 11: and she faked going to all these doctors, getting all
23:23
Speaker 11: these medications, faked being completely insane, faked having all of
23:28
Speaker 11: this anxiety, faked suicidal thoughts and harm for her children.
23:32
Speaker 11: Then all of a sudden, premeditated killed her three kids
23:35
Speaker 11: and jumped out a window and wanted to be paralyzed.
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Speaker 11: It makes no sense, and there is no way the
23:40
Speaker 11: prosecution is going to be able to convince a jury
23:43
Speaker 11: to say without doubt that there was no question of insanity.
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Speaker 1: Well, of course that's not the legal standard, doctor Leslie.
23:51
Speaker 1: The standard is beyond a reasonable doubt, not no doubt,
23:55
Speaker 1: beyond a reasonable doubt.
23:58
Speaker 11: Well, it's two wrongs.
24:02
Speaker 1: And they are.
24:04
Speaker 11: The two prongs are that you have to we need
24:06
Speaker 11: clear and convincing evidence. So do we have do't? And
24:11
Speaker 11: do we actually believe that she was seen or insane
24:17
Speaker 11: at the time of the crime.
24:18
Speaker 1: Actually, in Boston and throughout Massachusetts as in the rest
24:23
Speaker 1: of the country, the legal standard of proof and a
24:25
Speaker 1: criminal trial is beyond a reasonable doubt. That is the
24:33
Speaker 1: standard beyond a reasonable doubt, not a fanciful doubt, but
24:39
Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt based in reason, not to a mathematical
24:45
Speaker 1: certainty such as two and two equals four, but beyond
24:50
Speaker 1: a reasonable doubt. Dave mac what can you tell me
24:54
Speaker 1: about the facts that we are learning in the court room.
24:57
Speaker 1: The big question tonight is is she going to take
24:59
Speaker 1: the stand? Dave Matt Crime Stories investigative reporter Jump in Nancy.
25:04
Speaker 5: What we have found out in court is that Lindsey
25:09
Speaker 5: Clancy at least planned the events of the day enough
25:14
Speaker 5: early on, if you remember, early on, Lindsey Clancy texted
25:19
Speaker 5: Patrick about getting dinner from a takeout place. Didn't say
25:22
Speaker 5: which one, but that was early in the day, Are
25:25
Speaker 5: you in for takeout later on? So the plan begins.
25:27
Speaker 5: Then then when it comes time to send Patrick Clancy
25:31
Speaker 5: away from the home, Lendsy Clancy orders the takeout from
25:36
Speaker 5: a restaurant they've never used before, and that is the
25:39
Speaker 5: furthest away from their home, but still realistic to possibly use.
25:43
Speaker 5: Then she adds going by CVS to pick up some medication.
25:49
Speaker 5: Patrick Clancy is confused and calls Lindsey Clancy while he's
25:53
Speaker 5: at CVS. Nancy And the reason I'm putting this out
25:56
Speaker 5: is that Lindsey Clancy got Patricks the home and was
26:01
Speaker 5: planning to do that earlier in the day. Then she's
26:05
Speaker 5: in the middle of whatever is taking place when Patrick
26:08
Speaker 5: calls him. You know what he says, bat She just
26:11
Speaker 5: sounded like she was a little active, but nothing really
26:13
Speaker 5: going on. She's in the middle of killing her children,
26:16
Speaker 5: and yet she can be normal with Patrick on the phone.
26:20
Speaker 5: So as this all starts to break down, we also
26:23
Speaker 5: realized that you mentioned was Dawson the boy? Was he
26:27
Speaker 5: trying to escape? Well, we have Callen and Cora both
26:31
Speaker 5: found in the same area of the basement. Dawson was
26:35
Speaker 5: found across the room in an office that Patrick Clancy
26:39
Speaker 5: was using to work from home. But you know, Nancy,
26:42
Speaker 5: the bands were tied so differently around Dawson's neck that
26:47
Speaker 5: the bands were not pulled off by Patrick as easy
26:50
Speaker 5: as the other ones where he had to pull it
26:51
Speaker 5: out around his uh Dawson's head. So this was a
26:56
Speaker 5: plan of action that Lindsey Clancy backed in all day
27:01
Speaker 5: long to get her husband out of the house and
27:04
Speaker 5: its stay gone long enough for her to do what
27:07
Speaker 5: she wanted to do. That's perfect planning.
27:12
Speaker 1: To Susan Constantine joining us out of the Orlando jurisdiction.
27:16
Speaker 1: You've seen her in mini mini high profile trials. She's
27:20
Speaker 1: a body language expert. It has been reported that Clancy
27:26
Speaker 1: sent secret clues during the trial, particularly with her husband
27:35
Speaker 1: was on the stand. Did you notice them? And what
27:39
Speaker 1: if anything can you make of it?
27:43
Speaker 9: Okay, so you know, in my.
27:47
Speaker 8: World, we don't go A plus bople'll see there's got
27:50
Speaker 8: to be some sort of correlation.
27:53
Speaker 9: So we don't know what we don't know.
27:55
Speaker 8: So I think that that's really far reaching to say
27:58
Speaker 8: that she was sending clues.
28:00
Speaker 9: Because we don't know.
28:01
Speaker 8: So on the other hand, what we're seeing, though, we're
28:04
Speaker 8: seeing a lot of emotion mostly within the mouth. We
28:08
Speaker 8: see a lot of the lick lipping, we see a
28:11
Speaker 8: lot of the lip rolling. All of that is all
28:15
Speaker 8: a physiological response from stress. Right, It doesn't mean she's
28:20
Speaker 8: withholding information because she does. We don't even she wasn't
28:24
Speaker 8: going to speak. So to say that she's like literally
28:26
Speaker 8: putting a cup over her mouth and refusing to say
28:30
Speaker 8: something is ridiculous. Okay, there's no research to back that up.
28:35
Speaker 8: What we do know is that when somebody is stressed, Okay,
28:39
Speaker 8: there's high cognitive load, it drives up the salvatory glands,
28:43
Speaker 8: and then that's why they lick their lips. The other
28:45
Speaker 8: reason why they press their lips together. It could be
28:48
Speaker 8: all kinds of reasons. They're restraining, they're pressing down, they're
28:52
Speaker 8: trying to contain their emotions, and you'll see it around
28:55
Speaker 8: their mouth because there's twenty muscles around the mouth. So
28:59
Speaker 8: that's why we see it all of this movement. The
29:01
Speaker 8: other thing I'd like to speak to about the tears.
29:04
Speaker 8: People can cry with tears and not have the nose drip.
29:10
Speaker 9: And vice versa.
29:11
Speaker 8: Again, there's no research that the two have to happen simultaneously,
29:15
Speaker 8: but what it does tell us is about the level
29:18
Speaker 8: of emotion that somebody is feeling. So when the level
29:22
Speaker 8: of emotion is really high, you might see more tears
29:26
Speaker 8: with the snot. Okay, So let's just clear that up
29:29
Speaker 8: because sometimes I hear stuff and it really aggravates me
29:33
Speaker 8: because I think it's a bunch of pseudoscience blowny. I
29:36
Speaker 8: strictly go by what does the research say, and then
29:40
Speaker 8: also assign it to what the context and their baseline
29:44
Speaker 8: and their behavior at that exact moment.
29:48
Speaker 1: What is face blocking, lip rolling and billboard eyebrows?
29:53
Speaker 8: Okay, so billboard eyebrows is just a term that is
29:57
Speaker 8: saying that your forehead is where we show a lot
30:01
Speaker 8: of emotion. Okay, So it's not just there. It's actually
30:05
Speaker 8: in your mouth too, so it's not.
30:06
Speaker 9: Just the forehead.
30:07
Speaker 8: So if they raise their eyebrows show fear the white
30:10
Speaker 8: above the eyes, they might do a confirmation glance or
30:14
Speaker 8: a surprise glance in the forehead, so you see the
30:16
Speaker 8: eyebrows lift up. If somebody's feeling sadness, you see those
30:19
Speaker 8: grief muscles and then this will pull up. So if
30:22
Speaker 8: she's feeling sad that you may see that also if
30:25
Speaker 8: the brows lower or pinched together, could be anger, could
30:28
Speaker 8: be concentration, could be frustration. So you start to see
30:32
Speaker 8: there's no one size fits off. There are different emotions
30:37
Speaker 8: that a person's feeling. And then we also have what
30:38
Speaker 8: we call complex emotions, so you can have an array
30:42
Speaker 8: of emotions in the exact same moment. And I think
30:45
Speaker 8: that's what we're seeing here is complex emotions.
30:49
Speaker 1: To Peny commit joining us in vest Gaty Reporter WBZ,
30:53
Speaker 1: CBS Boston. What of her behavior stands out? And do
31:01
Speaker 1: you believe client seat will risk taking the stand?
31:06
Speaker 7: Oh, Nanzia would be a highly surprised if she took
31:10
Speaker 7: the stand. Her defense attorney is one of the most
31:13
Speaker 7: well renowned best defense attorneys in Massachusetts. He has covered
31:17
Speaker 7: so many high profile cases. His witness list is extensive.
31:22
Speaker 7: He has so many people that he is ready to
31:25
Speaker 7: have testify. I would be shocked if he would risk
31:29
Speaker 7: her taking the stand with his level of expertise. But
31:33
Speaker 7: never say never. It certainly happened before in criminal trials,
31:36
Speaker 7: even here in Massachusetts. And when it comes to her
31:40
Speaker 7: body language, when we heard from the medical examiner that
31:45
Speaker 7: performed an autopsy on her youngest son, Callen, she was
31:49
Speaker 7: crying so hard that you could hear it, not only
31:53
Speaker 7: me sitting in the court room, but I have people
31:55
Speaker 7: telling me they could hear it through the live stream.
31:57
Speaker 7: She was wailing audibly, sobbing. Once a medical examiner was
32:02
Speaker 7: done on the stand, the judge actually called a surprise break,
32:06
Speaker 7: I assume because Lindsay Clancy was so beside herself and
32:09
Speaker 7: she was wheeled out of the court room and we
32:11
Speaker 7: didn't come back to testimony until maybe about fifteen twenty
32:13
Speaker 7: minutes later.
32:14
Speaker 1: From our friends at East Idaho News Straight Out Now
32:17
Speaker 1: to Crime Stories, investigative reporter Dave Matt Dave, I would
32:23
Speaker 1: say it's about fifty to fifty on the trials that
32:26
Speaker 1: you and I have covered and the trials that I
32:28
Speaker 1: investigated and prosecuted, which are now between that up in
32:32
Speaker 1: the thousands. I very often see a killer break down
32:37
Speaker 1: and cry. I'd never know if they're sorry they did her,
32:40
Speaker 1: they're sorry they got caught. So she's seeing autopsy photos
32:44
Speaker 1: offer three children and probably seeing them for the first time,
32:50
Speaker 1: and it must be very upsetting to think they died
32:54
Speaker 1: at her hand. So the sobbing and the crying and
33:00
Speaker 1: hiding her face. I really don't know what to make
33:05
Speaker 1: of that. Because they're dead. I don't care how much
33:09
Speaker 1: she cries. Now they're dead and she did it, and
33:13
Speaker 1: I'm only trying to find out was she in a
33:16
Speaker 1: psychotic break at the time she did it. It's very difficult,
33:22
Speaker 1: and we have to look at the truth. Whether that
33:26
Speaker 1: makes us public enemy number one and we get more
33:29
Speaker 1: death threats? What is the truth of it? I mean,
33:35
Speaker 1: she clearly formed intent, Dave Max. She clearly formed intent
33:39
Speaker 1: by sending her husband out and waiting for him to
33:41
Speaker 1: be gone to murder the children. But can you form
33:46
Speaker 1: intent when you're in psychosis? What else jumps out at you?
33:51
Speaker 1: Specifically about the crying in court. The crying in.
33:55
Speaker 5: Court makes perfectly good sense to me, because you know,
33:58
Speaker 5: she is seeing these her children, and she's hearing about
34:02
Speaker 5: what took place with them in terms of their autopsies,
34:05
Speaker 5: and she's upset and crying because they are her children.
34:09
Speaker 5: I don't think she's thinking of it while I did this.
34:12
Speaker 5: I don't think that at all. I think she's like
34:13
Speaker 5: upset because her children are on display for all the
34:16
Speaker 5: world to see, and that you know they're gone. But Nancy,
34:19
Speaker 5: I really have a lot of trouble with the fact
34:22
Speaker 5: that we have a woman who weeks earlier checked herself
34:25
Speaker 5: in for a psychiatric evaluation for a few days and
34:31
Speaker 5: was so concerned about her well being that she did that.
34:33
Speaker 5: But she also checked herself out without doctors wanting her
34:39
Speaker 5: to do that. You know, she checked herself out and
34:41
Speaker 5: then went on with her life. And you know, I
34:44
Speaker 5: don't know psychosis, but I do know this. Those children
34:47
Speaker 5: are dead at her hand, and she had enough wherewithal
34:50
Speaker 5: to plan it out. So the fact that they're gone
34:56
Speaker 5: and she's not leaves us with, well, what was her intent?
35:00
Speaker 5: I mean, there were better ways for her to kill
35:01
Speaker 5: herself that that was her goal, but ultimately she planned it,
35:05
Speaker 5: she carried it out. And does it really matter, you know,
35:11
Speaker 5: at a certain point in time, you know, I don't
35:13
Speaker 5: think you get to play that well. I was in psychosis.
35:16
Speaker 5: I'm sorry, Nancy. Three children are dead that shouldn't be
35:19
Speaker 5: and she made sure the one person that could protect
35:21
Speaker 5: them was far enough away from home that he couldn't
35:24
Speaker 5: protect his children.
35:25
Speaker 12: Is that you entering the store?
35:27
Speaker 13: Yeah?
35:29
Speaker 12: And that section you had to on the right, is
35:31
Speaker 12: that the pediatric medication section?
35:34
Speaker 13: Yeah?
35:35
Speaker 12: Okay, And while you're in that section looking for the medication.
35:40
Speaker 13: Do you do something. I called Lindsey And why did
35:45
Speaker 13: you call Lindsay? Because what we were looking for wasn't there.
35:49
Speaker 12: What did you do once you got inside the home?
35:54
Speaker 13: I started taking my boots off.
35:56
Speaker 11: Was there anything you noticed?
35:58
Speaker 13: Yeah? The house is really quiet?
36:00
Speaker 12: Was that unusual? And when you realized it was really quiet?
36:06
Speaker 13: What did you do? I called out? And who did
36:11
Speaker 13: you call out to? Everyone?
36:13
Speaker 11: Did anyone answer?
36:14
Speaker 13: No? I saw Cora and how did she look? She
36:23
Speaker 13: had a band around her neck? And was that an
36:26
Speaker 13: exercise band? Yeah?
36:29
Speaker 12: And do you recall whether she was what position she
36:35
Speaker 12: was in, whether face up or face down?
36:36
Speaker 13: She's face down?
36:38
Speaker 12: And when you saw her in that condition?
36:42
Speaker 9: What did you do?
36:44
Speaker 13: I immediately ran over and tried to take the band off.
36:46
Speaker 12: Were you able to get the band off?
36:48
Speaker 11: Yeah?
36:49
Speaker 12: Was she responsive?
36:50
Speaker 11: No?
36:51
Speaker 13: I saw Callen and where was he? He was next
36:54
Speaker 13: to her?
36:55
Speaker 12: And how did he appear?
36:58
Speaker 13: He had a band around his neck? Sorry, he had
37:01
Speaker 13: a band around his neck? And did you remove that
37:03
Speaker 13: as well? Yeah?
37:05
Speaker 12: And do you recall what position he was in?
37:07
Speaker 13: Same as Cora?
37:09
Speaker 12: After you removed the band from callan snack?
37:14
Speaker 13: What did you do next? I tried to find Dawson
37:17
Speaker 13: and where did you go. I looked in the bathroom
37:22
Speaker 13: and on the other side of the couch, and then
37:25
Speaker 13: I went to the other side of the basement news
37:27
Speaker 13: in my office.
37:29
Speaker 12: And when you saw Dawson, what condition was he in?
37:35
Speaker 13: I knew he was gone.
37:38
Speaker 12: And did he also have a band around his neck?
37:40
Speaker 13: Yeah?
37:41
Speaker 9: And did you remove that band?
37:42
Speaker 13: Yeah?
37:43
Speaker 1: From our friends at East Idaho News straight out now
37:46
Speaker 1: to Penny Commit joining US investigative reporter WBZ CBS Boston,
37:52
Speaker 1: there has been a let me say for airwaves, a sandstorm,
38:01
Speaker 1: a tempest, after the prosecutor in this case was caught
38:07
Speaker 1: on a hot mic reportedly when Clancy was crying loudly
38:12
Speaker 1: in court saying shut her up. Did that happen?
38:18
Speaker 7: Well, this was probably the spiciest moment we have seen
38:22
Speaker 7: throughout this trial. When defense attorney Kevin Ruddington brought this
38:26
Speaker 7: up to the judge, the judge said, let's talk about
38:27
Speaker 7: this sidebar. He goes, no, I want to talk about
38:29
Speaker 7: this right now. Is a big moment, and he accused
38:32
Speaker 7: the prosecutors of saying shut her up. As I mentioned earlier,
38:38
Speaker 7: that medical examiner testified to the autopsy photos and Lindsay
38:41
Speaker 7: Clancy was crying hysterically. When you go back and listen
38:45
Speaker 7: to it, it's really hard to hear what they're actually saying.
38:49
Speaker 7: We of course reached out to the courts asked what
38:51
Speaker 7: their response.
38:52
Speaker 13: To this is.
38:53
Speaker 7: They said that they were telling the court clerks and
38:58
Speaker 7: the court officers to shut it off, referring to the
39:02
Speaker 7: photos of the autopsy that were on the screens for
39:06
Speaker 7: the jurors. It's one of those things that when you
39:09
Speaker 7: listen to it back, whatever you're listening for is kind
39:13
Speaker 7: of what you hear. So it's not totally clear if
39:16
Speaker 7: they said shut her up because she was crying, or
39:19
Speaker 7: if they really did say shut it off. It's murky.
39:22
Speaker 7: But the judge said he will not have any commentary
39:25
Speaker 7: or disrespect in his courtroom. And then the trial moved on.
39:29
Speaker 1: So the judge said he will not have disrespect in
39:33
Speaker 1: his courtroom. I couldn't quite hear you what.
39:36
Speaker 7: He seemed like he wanted to just lay the ground rules,
39:40
Speaker 7: no extra commentary, no any frivolous chatter, and moved on
39:45
Speaker 7: with the trial.
39:46
Speaker 1: Guys, take a listen to what we're talking about in court. Okay,
40:01
Speaker 1: I didn't hear it a sh so do we believe
40:06
Speaker 1: that's what she said, yes or no? Straight out to
40:09
Speaker 1: you miscommit.
40:11
Speaker 7: Oh it's so hard to say. I mean, the prosecution
40:16
Speaker 7: gave their rebuttal, the defense said made a scene of it. Regardless,
40:21
Speaker 7: the defense is trying to stick up for his client.
40:24
Speaker 1: So to doctor Leslie Dobson, joining us, star of a
40:28
Speaker 1: new podcast on iHeart intentionally disturbing and author clinical forensic psychologist,
40:35
Speaker 1: way in on what you're hearing.
40:38
Speaker 9: I'm hearing a bunch of bullshit.
40:40
Speaker 11: I mean, if you don't understand what psychosis is, you
40:42
Speaker 11: shouldn't be speaking. I don't know what lawyer you had
40:44
Speaker 11: call in, but if you know nothing about altruistic philicide,
40:48
Speaker 11: you should not be commenting on this case. And she
40:51
Speaker 11: did check herself into a hospital at three in the morning.
40:55
Speaker 1: I beg your pardon. Do you think that people on
40:58
Speaker 1: the jury stream a forensic clinical psychology degree like you do?
41:04
Speaker 1: The lawyer that you're called in is joining us. He
41:08
Speaker 1: is a veteran trial lawyer who wins cases in court
41:13
Speaker 1: and does not mistake the legal standard of the law.
41:17
Speaker 1: I never agree with him, but he knows what he's
41:20
Speaker 1: talking about.
41:22
Speaker 11: So no, he doesn't. He doesn't know what makes is.
41:24
Speaker 2: Yes, he does.
41:27
Speaker 11: He just said he didn't know what.
41:28
Speaker 1: Well, that's not his expertise, but I can tell you
41:30
Speaker 1: this much. He and I both know what a jury's
41:32
Speaker 1: gonna do. Now, I'm asking you about psychosis. I'm not
41:35
Speaker 1: asking you to trash Kessler. I never thought those words
41:39
Speaker 1: would come out of my mouth, But go ahead.
41:42
Speaker 11: There's a bunch of trashing all over the Internet of
41:44
Speaker 11: this entire case, And the problem is that people are
41:46
Speaker 11: not educated enough to.
41:47
Speaker 1: Se I ask you about the Internet. No, I did not.
41:52
Speaker 1: The Internet is very often assesspool, don't swim in it. Yes, psychosis, Oh,
42:00
Speaker 1: I know the difference in postpartum psychosis and postpartum depression.
42:04
Speaker 1: That is the key to this case. I'm not saying
42:07
Speaker 1: she's guilty or innocent. I'm trying to find the truth,
42:11
Speaker 1: and trashing the other guests and cursing is not helping
42:14
Speaker 1: anything go ahead.
42:16
Speaker 11: Postpartum psychosis is not the same as psychosis. Postpartum psychosis
42:21
Speaker 11: is an extreme emergency where hormones are dropping out of
42:25
Speaker 11: your body and you have weeks before you're going to
42:27
Speaker 11: do something so drastically kill your children. If you got
42:31
Speaker 11: shot in the stomach, you'd be in the emergency room
42:33
Speaker 11: and you wouldn't check yourself out because you had a
42:35
Speaker 11: horrible doctor. It's the same thing. She was not taken seriously,
42:40
Speaker 11: and she was trying to find help. Repeatedly, she had
42:43
Speaker 11: intrusive thoughts of hurting herself and her children. They moved
42:46
Speaker 11: into auditory command, hallucinations and delusions, and it ended in
42:50
Speaker 11: an altruistic philicide where she thought that she was saving
42:53
Speaker 11: the lives of her children by killing them. It was
42:56
Speaker 11: a failure of the system and education and knowledge all
43:00
Speaker 11: in everyone, including her husband.
43:03
Speaker 1: Doctor Leslie Dobson. At any juncture did she state she
43:11
Speaker 1: thought she was saving the children by.
43:15
Speaker 11: Killing She said, go with God.
43:17
Speaker 1: I've heard that from other moms that kill their children.
43:22
Speaker 11: She said go with God in quotes in her civil lawsuit.
43:28
Speaker 1: Okay, at a repeat, At any juncture did she state
43:33
Speaker 1: by killing her children she thought she was saving them.
43:37
Speaker 11: Yes, she has spelled it out in her civil complaint
43:40
Speaker 11: as well as the three evaluators who met with her.
43:45
Speaker 1: She said those words, I felt, that's my way of
43:48
Speaker 1: saving them.
43:49
Speaker 11: Words to that effect, not the exact words of saving them,
43:54
Speaker 11: but it was a belief. She described a belief that
43:57
Speaker 11: they were that she had to save them and protect
44:01
Speaker 11: them by killing them and then killing herself. If she
44:04
Speaker 11: didn't kill herself, she wouldn't be able to then protect them.
44:07
Speaker 11: It's psychotic, delusional thinking.
44:10
Speaker 1: The difference in this case in many other cases is
44:15
Speaker 1: that she tried to slit her wrists and she jumped
44:19
Speaker 1: out of a window, which indicates she was trying to
44:23
Speaker 1: kill herself. Very often we see killers claim I wanted
44:29
Speaker 1: to commit suicide. Everybody else around them and some dead
44:31
Speaker 1: and they're perfectly fine. Not in this case, Susan Constantine.
44:37
Speaker 1: This is a concern to me. Women are judged differently
44:41
Speaker 1: in court. The fact that some may consider her a
44:46
Speaker 1: bad mom is going to weigh against her. They're held
44:50
Speaker 1: to a different higher standard when it comes to their children.
44:54
Speaker 1: On the other hand, Susan, in cases you got three
44:59
Speaker 1: child ldren dead that suffered a horrible death, people search
45:04
Speaker 1: for a motive, which is not required under the law. Translation.
45:09
Speaker 1: It's really hard to convict a mother, even if she
45:12
Speaker 1: is guilty.
45:15
Speaker 8: Yeah, so that's a really hard thing for the jurors
45:18
Speaker 8: to decide. So for the defense, we're looking for someone
45:21
Speaker 8: that kind of falls in that gray area, you know,
45:24
Speaker 8: where they see that she may have had mental illness,
45:28
Speaker 8: right but then again, did she actually plan it?
45:33
Speaker 13: So?
45:33
Speaker 9: Then was she cognitive? Was she aware?
45:36
Speaker 8: These are the questions that the jury is going to
45:38
Speaker 8: be asking because not only not just because she had
45:41
Speaker 8: mental illness equates to killing your children. There's going to
45:44
Speaker 8: be women that are on that jury that are saying, well, yeah,
45:47
Speaker 8: I had depression. I had a friend that we had depression,
45:49
Speaker 8: but they didn't kill their three kids. So and kind
45:53
Speaker 8: of going back to this is, you know, I was
45:55
Speaker 8: trained by nord Revis, who actually selected the jury for
45:58
Speaker 8: the Andery Yeates case. Much different case, even though it's
46:01
Speaker 8: very similar, because it was really grounded that she was
46:06
Speaker 8: in psychosis. Okay, right here, we've got ambiguity, and that's
46:11
Speaker 8: exactly what the defense wants. So on the state side,
46:15
Speaker 8: can you have planned it out and still have mental illness?
46:19
Speaker 8: And are they accountable for it? That's what they're going
46:22
Speaker 8: to be weighing back and forth. But I don't think
46:24
Speaker 8: that by having women on the jury is going to
46:26
Speaker 8: gain any more sympathy. In fact, it could even be harsher.
46:30
Speaker 1: You know, Kessler, first of all, can you believe I
46:33
Speaker 1: had to defend you on public airwaves and against a
46:37
Speaker 1: renowned expert to who knows so much more than you
46:40
Speaker 1: and I put together. That's much Kessler. Have you ever
46:45
Speaker 1: noticed that women on juries can be harsher on a
46:48
Speaker 1: female defendant. You know what, I think that Constantine is
46:54
Speaker 1: right because they put themselves in those shoes, and they
46:58
Speaker 1: remember how exhausted they were raising their children when they
47:04
Speaker 1: didn't sleep all night, especially if you have twins and
47:06
Speaker 1: one gets up at twelve, thirty one gets up at one, thirty,
47:09
Speaker 1: one gets up at three, thirty one gets up at five,
47:11
Speaker 1: and everybody's up every single night for basically two years,
47:16
Speaker 1: and they think I didn't kill my children. Or on
47:20
Speaker 1: the other hand, it could work the other way. Just
47:22
Speaker 1: this this case is very, very conflicting with the evidence.
47:28
Speaker 1: But I know you're about to give one h double
47:30
Speaker 1: l of a closing argument, so have at it all right.
47:33
Speaker 6: I think women are always harsher on women in every situation.
47:36
Speaker 6: We do a lot of divorce jury trials here in Georgia,
47:39
Speaker 6: and a lot of women on the jury say, I
47:40
Speaker 6: don't get that much in my divorce. Why should she
47:42
Speaker 6: get that much? I'm making it on my own. Women
47:44
Speaker 6: are much more competitive. Men stick together, and there's a
47:47
Speaker 6: reason psychologists are psychologists and lawyers or lawyers, I can
47:51
Speaker 6: guarantee that psychologist you had on that the jury is
47:53
Speaker 6: not going to go back into the deliberation room and
47:55
Speaker 6: deliberate and discuss the nuances of psychosis and all sorts
47:59
Speaker 6: of psychological terms. They're going to ask the question this,
48:03
Speaker 6: did she do it because it was premeditated? Or why
48:06
Speaker 6: did she do it? And their answer is going to
48:07
Speaker 6: be much less intellectual than the psychologists wants you to believe.
48:10
Speaker 6: Their answer is going to be she did it because
48:13
Speaker 6: she was crazy, or she was some other lay term
48:16
Speaker 6: that lay people like lay drawers, are going to use.
48:19
Speaker 6: That's the only question, and as a lawyer, that's what
48:21
Speaker 6: I need them to think. I don't need them to
48:23
Speaker 6: understand the detailed nuances of this psychosis and that psychosis
48:26
Speaker 6: post part of psychosists. I need them to say, either
48:29
Speaker 6: she did it because she pre planned it and she's
48:31
Speaker 6: a murderer, or she did it because she had some
48:34
Speaker 6: mental deficiency, and I want to let her off the
48:36
Speaker 6: hook because I think she did it when she was crazy,
48:39
Speaker 6: and that's a lay term, it's not a psychological term.
48:42
Speaker 6: So absolutely, I'm going to be a lawyer and the
48:45
Speaker 6: psychologists can be psychologists. But you're right, Nancy, since she
48:48
Speaker 6: told me I was right, You're right. Women are tougher
48:51
Speaker 6: on women almost every day in every jury trial.
48:55
Speaker 1: And to doctor Leslie Dobson, you have stated that you
48:59
Speaker 1: feel we are mishandling postpartum psychosis as if we were
49:06
Speaker 1: quote back in the sixties. I think I know what
49:09
Speaker 1: you mean by that, but again it's your expertise, not mine.
49:12
Speaker 1: What did you mean by like we're back in the sixties?
49:16
Speaker 1: What does that mean?
49:18
Speaker 11: I made that comment particularly when the prosecution asked the
49:22
Speaker 11: psychiatrist if Lindy Clancy had seen a unicorn in the corner.
49:27
Speaker 11: To think that psychosis is seeing unicorns is not only
49:31
Speaker 11: mocking but minimizing the severity of mental illness and our
49:35
Speaker 11: education and understanding of it today and in particular, and
49:38
Speaker 11: again I do not agree with the attorney that you've
49:41
Speaker 11: had on They need to understand, the jury needs to
49:43
Speaker 11: understand the nuance between postpartum psychosis and psychosis. It's not
49:49
Speaker 11: just crazy. It's very different. It's worse than being just crazy.
49:55
Speaker 1: The evidence very conflicting. I as normal of the victims
50:00
Speaker 1: in this case, who had no say in the matter
50:03
Speaker 1: and died a horrible death at the hands of the
50:07
Speaker 1: one person that is supposed to defend them. No matter
50:13
Speaker 1: what what is the answer, that jury will very shortly
50:18
Speaker 1: begin deliberations as we wait to find out if Clancy
50:23
Speaker 1: takes the stand. If you know or think you know
50:26
Speaker 1: anything regarding this case, please dial seven eight one nine
50:30
Speaker 1: three four, five, six five six repeat seven eighty one, nine, three, four, five,
50:36
Speaker 1: six five six. We remember American hero Deputy Shriff Carol Scruggs,
50:41
Speaker 1: Marshall County Sheriff's, Mississippi, killed in the line of duty,
50:46
Speaker 1: leaving behind four children without their mother. American hero Deputy
50:53
Speaker 1: Sheriff Carol Scrugs. Thank you to our guest, but especially
50:58
Speaker 1: to you for being with us tonight and every night.
51:02
Speaker 1: Nancy Gray signing off for tonight, but I'll see you
51:04
Speaker 1: tomorrow night and until then, good night friend.
51:12
Speaker 3: H