Latest / Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel / Dr. Drew Chats About Love Addiction, Relationships, Reality TV & MORE with Rachel Uchitel

Transcript

Dr. Drew Chats About Love Addiction, Relationships, Reality TV & MORE with Rachel Uchitel · Miss Understood with Rachel Uchitel

• 0:00
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  Speaker 1: real conversations in a new language today. All right, welcome
• 1:31
  Speaker 1: to Misunderstood with Rachel Yucatel. I'm going to start by
• 1:34
  Speaker 1: talking about how I met my next guest. I was
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: living with a friend in Florida at the time. I
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: had become a complete recluse. Everywhere I looked, every time
• 1:49
  Speaker 1: I turned on the television, every time I opened a newspaper,
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: My name was all over the news. And at the time,
• 1:56
  Speaker 1: we didn't really have social media like we have now.
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: You couldn't really look at your phone and just check
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: it like we would do. But the social media at
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: the time was Radar Online and TMZ. And it was,
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: you know, updated hourly. And my name was at the
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: top of the list. And it was devastating what people
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: would say about me. And those things, for the most part,
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: were not true. And it was debilitating to my self-esteem.
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: I had really gotten into a point in my head
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: where I literally couldn't function physically, mentally. I had lost
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: all my friends. I had lost my family. I didn't
• 2:35
  Speaker 1: trust anybody. It was really horrible. Talking about it makes
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: me upset to even remember that place that I was at.
• 2:44
  Speaker 1: But I knew that I.
• 2:47
  Speaker 1: You know, had to get out of that somewhere. And
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: I got a phone call from someone who said, listen,
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: you got to start getting out of your house. You
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: got to figure out what you're going to do. And
• 2:57
  Speaker 1: what I knew that I needed to do was figure
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: out how to tell my own story without talking about
• 3:03
  Speaker 1: what everyone else wanted to talk about. And to do that,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: it was to try and get people to understand who
• 3:10
  Speaker 1: I was. And if they chose to dislike me after
• 3:13
  Speaker 1: they knew who I was, that was fair. But they
• 3:17
  Speaker 1: had to give me a chance to let them know
• 3:19
  Speaker 1: who I was. And sorry, it's like so emotional thinking
• 3:24
  Speaker 1: about that time in my life. So this is when
• 3:31
  Speaker 1: Drew came into my life. And he's so important to
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: me because he was the only person that I felt
• 3:39
  Speaker 1: got me. So I actually got a crazy call before
• 3:42
  Speaker 1: Drew and it was Donald Trump. And he called and
• 3:47
  Speaker 1: he said, I want you to be on The Apprentice.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: You would be great. You're the biggest star right now.
• 3:53
  Speaker 1: I did not see myself as a star, but that's
• 3:55
  Speaker 1: what he saw as star quality, right? The person that was,
• 3:59
  Speaker 1: you know, guiding headlines and making news. So I agreed
• 4:03
  Speaker 1: to do Celebrity Apprentice. Um, and I, my charity was
• 4:10
  Speaker 1: the Red Cross and I thought this would be a
• 4:11
  Speaker 1: great way for me to show people who I was.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: I was smart.
• 4:15
  Speaker 2: I was resourceful.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: Um, and, um, so he set up a meeting with
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: Michael Cohen and I have lunch with Michael Cohen and
• 4:22
  Speaker 1: we figured out how I would move forward and go
• 4:24
  Speaker 1: on that show. But at the same time, I was
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: still feeling awful. I couldn't come out of the house.
• 4:30
  Speaker 1: And the guy who had set up this meeting with
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: Donald Trump also said, well, listen, I have this other
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: opportunity at the same time at Celebrity Rehab. And I said, well,
• 4:38
  Speaker 1: I don't have an addiction, so that's ridiculous. I'm not
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: going to do that show. And they said, well, I
• 4:42
  Speaker 1: just want you to meet Dr. Drew and have a conversation.
• 4:46
  Speaker 1: And they kept offering more and more and more money.
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: And I said, it's not about the money. I'm not
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: going to do it. I don't have an addiction. And
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: long story short, we met at the L'Hermitage the night
• 4:58
  Speaker 1: before they started airing.
• 5:00
  Speaker 2: And I.
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: Within probably 30 minutes of sitting down, well, within the
• 5:05
  Speaker 1: first five minutes, but we sealed the deal in 30 minutes,
• 5:08
  Speaker 1: but of sitting with Dr. Drew, I knew that I
• 5:11
  Speaker 1: was not going to go on The Apprentice. I knew
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: that I needed to sit with Dr. Drew and go
• 5:17
  Speaker 1: on Celebrity Rehab, not because I wanted to be on
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: a reality show, but because I needed this man in
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: my life. I knew that no one else got me,
• 5:27
  Speaker 1: and I was so alone. Anyways, so without further ado,
• 5:30
  Speaker 1: I'm going to introduce my next guest. It's Dr. Drew Pinsky, obviously.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: He's the most wonderful man in my life still to
• 5:39
  Speaker 1: this day. He knows everything about me. He's a doctor.
• 5:43
  Speaker 1: He's a podcaster. He's an author. And he's my good friend.
• 5:46
  Speaker 1: So without further ado, Drew Pinsky.
• 5:49
  Speaker 3: Oh, Rachel, you're making me so emotional. I'll never forget
• 5:52
  Speaker 3: sitting there. Were you with the sunglasses on? You couldn't
• 5:55
  Speaker 3: make eye contact.
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: It was.
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: And at the time I didn't know you, so it
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: wasn't as distressful to me as it is now thinking
• 6:03
  Speaker 3: back on what you were going through. And I really
• 6:06
  Speaker 3: didn't know what you were going through also. I had
• 6:08
  Speaker 3: no idea yet. And, uh, oh my God. Oh my God. I, I,
• 6:13
  Speaker 3: I bear witness. There's not one thing you said that
• 6:16
  Speaker 3: would affect, I'd say you understated what that went and
• 6:21
  Speaker 3: the degree of distress you were in. Yeah. Oh my goodness.
• 6:24
  Speaker 3: So thank you for saying all that.
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 6:28
  Speaker 3: You and I are just going to sit here and
• 6:30
  Speaker 3: cry about all this. And I was sort of wanting
• 6:33
  Speaker 3: to say to you too, and here and now we're
• 6:36
  Speaker 3: both going to get very emotional, but your podcast name
• 6:40
  Speaker 3: is so perfect because when I think about you, you've
• 6:46
  Speaker 3: been misunderstood your whole life. And that I also had
• 6:51
  Speaker 3: an opportunity to bear witness to. And there's a lot
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: of unfair misunderstanding of Rachel. You could tell it. I mean,
• 6:58
  Speaker 3: across your lifespan. So this was just the major crisis
• 7:02
  Speaker 3: in it, but it connected back to a lot of
• 7:05
  Speaker 3: other stuff. So I'm here to tell you. And I
• 7:09
  Speaker 3: want everyone to know Rachel worked hard. Rachel worked very
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: hard on this stuff and kept going long after the
• 7:16
  Speaker 3: camera stopped. And I think watching you from afar, I'm
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: imagining you're continuing some of this stuff in some fashion
• 7:24
  Speaker 3: to the very day. So congratulations on your improvement and
• 7:28
  Speaker 3: how well you've done.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it obviously, the show had a huge impact on me.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: So I wanted to talk about it a little bit
• 7:33
  Speaker 1: because people talk about reality shows to this day and
• 7:37
  Speaker 1: talk about how fake they are, how staged they are.
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: But for me, in my experience, that was.
• 7:43
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• 7:57
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• 8:00
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• 8:03
  Speaker 1: Not staged. So for people that have not seen Celebrity Rehab,
• 8:07
  Speaker 1: let's talk about it for a second. There was eight
• 8:09
  Speaker 1: people on the show. We were brought into, where was that?
• 8:14
  Speaker 1: In Pasadena, California.
• 8:15
  Speaker 3: It's a residential treatment program in Pasadena.
• 8:18
  Speaker 1: Okay. And you had done it for what? Three seasons before.
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: Mine, I think?
• 8:23
  Speaker 3: It's all kind of a blur to me, what order
• 8:26
  Speaker 3: everything was in. I remember everybody. I don't remember who
• 8:29
  Speaker 3: was with who and in what order. But I would
• 8:31
  Speaker 3: say we'd probably already done it two or three times
• 8:33
  Speaker 3: by that point, yeah.
• 8:34
  Speaker 1: Right. But you guys had figured out the kinks, I think,
• 8:38
  Speaker 1: by then. But we had eight people on our season.
• 8:42
  Speaker 1: And everybody was a pretty well-known actor or musician or somebody.
• 8:47
  Speaker 1: And I remember coming in and feeling very awkward because
• 8:50
  Speaker 1: I– was not addicted to a substance per se. And
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: I know that, so we had Leif Garrett and he
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: was addicted to heroin. He was actually in a serious withdrawal.
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: Do you remember that when he came in? And then
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: we had Eric Roberts, the actor, and we had Janice Dickinson,
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: my roommate. You remember her? Obviously. And good, good. We
• 9:17
  Speaker 1: had Jason.
• 9:18
  Speaker 3: Waller, Who is, if you know, you should bring Jason in. He's,
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: he is a miracle. Oh my God. That guy is
• 9:24
  Speaker 3: a rockstar. Yeah.
• 9:27
  Speaker 1: No, he's great. I'm still friends with him. We had, um,
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: let's see, Jeremy London, who had a very interesting story
• 9:34
  Speaker 1: at the time. I think he had just, uh, gotten, um,
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: kidnapped or something. And, um, so I had some interesting
• 9:41
  Speaker 1: stories with his ex-wife, but wonderful guy who I became,
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: you know, I became great friends with all these guys. Um,
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: and then let's see.
• 9:50
  Speaker 3: And then we had, um, and Rachel, Rachel, do you
• 9:54
  Speaker 3: remember Janice coming in group one day and telling her
• 9:58
  Speaker 3: bill Cosby story? All right. Cause I, I had a
• 10:00
  Speaker 3: memory of that. It might've been just she and I
• 10:04
  Speaker 3: sitting in that room. I can't remember if the group
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: was full or not, but she, she told the same
• 10:08
  Speaker 3: story that she told many times later. And, uh, I
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: don't even think she told me who it was. She
• 10:13
  Speaker 3: just told me this story and, uh, yeah, it was bull.
• 10:19
  Speaker 1: Oh, God, no, that's awful. I do remember her issues
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: with men, obviously, and her father and all that stuff.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: And then, of course, since then, we've lost two people
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: that were very special in the group, Frankie Lanz and
• 10:35
  Speaker 1: Jason Davis, which has been really hard, you know, in
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: such a small group to have lost two people. It's
• 10:40
  Speaker 1: incredibly difficult to see what addiction does to people because
• 10:45
  Speaker 1: they did die of addictions.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: Well, and it, and it shortens your life, right? I mean,
• 10:49
  Speaker 3: even if you don't die of addiction, like, like, you know,
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: Tom Sizemore was a dear man to me and he
• 10:56
  Speaker 3: just died of a brain aneurysm. It weakens your system.
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: It gives you all kinds of other medical problems down
• 11:02
  Speaker 3: the road. You can still think of it as an
• 11:04
  Speaker 3: addiction death, but you know, it's because of having had
• 11:07
  Speaker 3: this thing, even if it's in hand, it's very, very scary.
• 11:11
  Speaker 1: When was the last time you spoke to Tom?
• 11:17
  Speaker 3: It must have been, I'm trying to remember if it
• 11:18
  Speaker 3: was during COVID, probably a year and a half ago,
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: a year and a half ago, both Bob and I
• 11:24
  Speaker 3: did with him. And Bob and I had known, we'd
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: worked with Tom for many years in various settings, and
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: we did extremely well with him when he would stay
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: with us. But of course, you know how it is,
• 11:34
  Speaker 3: people drift out and do their own thing, and then
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: it doesn't go so well. Right, right.
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: So yeah, it's a horrible story. And I know everybody
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: worked so hard being on that show. And so, you know,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: I just wanted to say my experience being on that
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: show is that we all worked hard. And To get
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: people to come on that show, yes, we're given a paycheck, right?
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: And people, I think, don't really understand that, especially for
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: that show, these are addicts. So they don't want to
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: be there. And they're also actors and entertainers. So they're
• 12:08
  Speaker 1: probably like, oh, great, I can make some money to
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: feed my addiction or whatever their reasons are. For me,
• 12:14
  Speaker 1: I wanted to be there to tell my story. because
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: I needed people to know who I was without talking
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: about the scandal, without being able to classify me in
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: whatever narrative they wanted to give me. But I wanted
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: them to see who I was without the other stuff
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: going on. And if they chose to dislike me after that,
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: that was total fair game. But I needed to be
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: able to show who I was in between those lines.
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: And You know, I always say that, you know, there's
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: only so much editing can do. You can only represent
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: yourself how you want to represent yourself. And it's a
• 12:51
  Speaker 1: very hard place to, you know, hide who you are
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: for 30 days. And especially in those, you know, confines.
• 12:59
  Speaker 1: So I quite frankly loved being there. I loved the
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: people I was with, even though it was so hard.
• 13:06
  Speaker 1: And I actually want to show a clip to remind
• 13:09
  Speaker 1: you of the time that we had.
• 13:11
  Speaker 3: Before you do, you and I had some really interesting moments,
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: but the one thing that immediately jumped out to me
• 13:20
  Speaker 3: about you is how freaking smart you are. And as
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: a result, I always kind of teased you about this,
• 13:26
  Speaker 3: but you're not super patient when things aren't smart, when
• 13:30
  Speaker 3: things aren't You know, you don't I remember you tell
• 13:32
  Speaker 3: you don't suffer fools gladly. I'm sure that's still the case.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: But Rachel is so smart that she gets very impatient
• 13:39
  Speaker 3: when people don't keep up with her. And that's I
• 13:41
  Speaker 3: think that it's it's funny to me. I think it's
• 13:44
  Speaker 3: actually an asset. Yeah.
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah. You were the one that taught me that line
• 13:48
  Speaker 1: for the first time when I was there that I
• 13:50
  Speaker 1: don't suffer.
• 13:52
  Speaker 3: I could see in your eyes. You're like, oh, yeah,
• 13:53
  Speaker 3: that's me.
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because when you explained that to me that I
• 13:56
  Speaker 1: don't suffer fullest gladly, I remember saying to you, what
• 13:59
  Speaker 1: does that mean? And you had to stop me and say,
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: you got to have a little patience for people to
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: catch up because I was like, I'm here to work
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: this out. I'm here to figure this out. And you're like, Rachel,
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: you're dealing with addicts that, you know, and you have
• 14:14
  Speaker 1: to also trust people. They have to trust you. Like,
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: slow down for a second.
• 14:19
  Speaker 3: Part of that is that trust building stuff. Yes, absolutely. Yeah. Yeah.
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, but I want to show that clip for a second.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: Most of the ones that are having that kind of
• 14:28
  Speaker 3: trouble are aware they're doing it and are literally trying
• 14:31
  Speaker 3: not to and hear themselves do it and are very
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: upset that they do it, and they do it anyway.
• 14:35
  Speaker 3: It's part of their condition.
• 14:37
  Speaker 2: I think that's part of their condition. I don't think
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: it's part of her condition.
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: I think she can just be rude because she thinks
• 14:42
  Speaker 1: she's more important than everybody else here, and it's her
• 14:44
  Speaker 1: television show.
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: That's what I see.
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: Itching.
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  Speaker 4: Burning. Soreness. When you know it's thrush, you want it gone.
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• 15:08
  Speaker 2: Don't see it as part of her disease.
• 15:11
  Speaker 3: So when she talks about how injured she is and
• 15:13
  Speaker 3: how anxious she is, then how.
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: It depends what she talks about.
• 15:17
  Speaker 1: She said in meetings that she had an alcoholic father
• 15:20
  Speaker 1: and then Jason Davis said something about alcoholism and said
• 15:23
  Speaker 1: she had an alcoholic father and she jumped down his throat.
• 15:25
  Speaker 2: And said her father wasn't an alcoholic. So I don't
• 15:27
  Speaker 2: know what we're dealing with.
• 15:29
  Speaker 3: We know he was abusive.
• 15:31
  Speaker 2: I'm sure he was. I'm not taking that away from her.
• 15:34
  Speaker 1: I can tell when it's about being in front of
• 15:37
  Speaker 1: the camera because she wants it to be about her
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: and when it's about a real feeling.
• 15:40
  Speaker 2: I think you can too.
• 15:44
  Speaker 3: I don't know what you're talking about. Okay. Sure. I
• 15:48
  Speaker 3: don't know what you're talking about.
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: If you're accusing me of lying, then we have a huge,
• 15:51
  Speaker 3: huge problem.
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: Lying? I didn't accuse you of lying.
• 15:53
  Speaker 1: I accused you of letting her get away with stuff
• 15:56
  Speaker 1: that I think you know is a problem to people
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: that are really trying to go through something.
• 16:02
  Speaker 3: I'm trying to understand exactly because I heard multiple different complaints.
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: Okay, I don't want to argue with you because this
• 16:07
  Speaker 1: hostility is not about you. So I don't want you
• 16:10
  Speaker 1: to start making it about you and then we'll have
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: a real problem because then we'll start not getting along.
• 16:13
  Speaker 2: Which is what you're starting to do. So why don't
• 16:16
  Speaker 2: I leave and I will go read the book. You
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: asked me to read and we'll be done with this conversation.
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: Is that okay with you?
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: I loved how you challenged me. You know why? Because
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: that's you working. You were in it. You were there.
• 16:41
  Speaker 3: And yeah, And there's, there is stuff, you know, there's,
• 16:46
  Speaker 3: as I, I'm not sure I understood what you were
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: at the time, but as I look at it now
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: with a camp from a camera, every time I sat
• 16:53
  Speaker 3: down with somebody, I had to think to myself, are
• 16:56
  Speaker 3: they saying this for the camera? Are they saying this
• 16:59
  Speaker 3: for real? Are they editing for the camera? Because you
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: understand part of my, my, my job was not to
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: out somebody in front of a camera, right? I mean,
• 17:08
  Speaker 3: if they want to keep something side, that, that happens in,
• 17:11
  Speaker 3: in real life you'd push harder, but in front of
• 17:14
  Speaker 3: a camera, like I don't, if they don't want to
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: put that out there, I have to, I have to
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: protect that. I have to support that. But you were,
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: you were telling me something different, which I didn't get,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: which was that she was essentially, I don't know, maybe
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: it's not the right word, but sort of mugging for
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: the camera, right. That she was pulling shit out for
• 17:30
  Speaker 3: the camera. Right.
• 17:31
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 17:32
  Speaker 1: And I was coming in from perspective of I'm a civilian.
• 17:36
  Speaker 1: I just became famous sort of right within a couple
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: of weeks of, or whatever, a couple months of coming
• 17:42
  Speaker 1: onto that show, I didn't consider myself a celebrity. I
• 17:46
  Speaker 1: was just a girl coming on there trying to get help.
• 17:49
  Speaker 1: And I was surrounded by celebrities. So it was the
• 17:52
  Speaker 1: first time I was seeing that. And I was talking
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: to you like, I'm here to get help. And all
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: these people are doing all these crazy things for the camera. Like,
• 18:00
  Speaker 1: what are we doing here? You know what I mean?
• 18:03
  Speaker 3: For sure. For sure. I had trouble. I'm always trying
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: to sort that out. So you were actually helping me.
• 18:10
  Speaker 3: and challenging me. And, you know, we were forging our relationship,
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: which was the part I appreciated was, and by the way,
• 18:17
  Speaker 3: if people don't know, Rachel went out the wrong door,
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: which was a very intentional move on her part, I think,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: because that was supposed to be all, didn't, wasn't supposed
• 18:26
  Speaker 3: to be in the camera, wasn't supposed to be there,
• 18:28
  Speaker 3: didn't supposed to exist. And so, so we were forging
• 18:33
  Speaker 3: our relationship. You hung in and you hung in. And
• 18:36
  Speaker 3: that was, that was really the part. And I know,
• 18:39
  Speaker 3: and if you remember, I had conversations with you about this,
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: you probably did that in the real world relationships and
• 18:44
  Speaker 3: people would abandon you. And that I wasn't, I was
• 18:48
  Speaker 3: not going to do that no matter what. No.
• 18:51
  Speaker 1: And you've never have abandoned me. And I always appreciated that.
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: So part of me coming on this, on this show
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: is that you taught me all about love addiction. And
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: that's what I wanted to get into here. Because so
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: many people at the time, especially so long ago, made
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: fun of that term. It has gotten much more commonplace now.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: So let's talk first about what that is. For me,
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: it was, you know, where people mistake intensity, you know,
• 19:17
  Speaker 1: for love, really. And, you know, and I made that
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: mistake many times. It got me into a lot of trouble.
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: But why don't you talk from your perspective of what
• 19:27
  Speaker 1: it really is?
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: It's a construct. It's not a formal diagnosis. It doesn't
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: sit in the DSM-IV or anything. It is a construct
• 19:36
  Speaker 3: to help us help patients. And it works very, very well.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: It dovetails with many other different conditions. I think the
• 19:44
  Speaker 3: other condition that's also not a DSM diagnosis is codependency.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: And it goes in with... those sorts of conditions. Again,
• 19:51
  Speaker 3: these are constructs that help people deal with what's going
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: on in their internal lives. What Rachel is referring to
• 19:58
  Speaker 3: is that one of the really common phenomenon with love
• 20:02
  Speaker 3: addiction is that the addictive part is the lightning bolt
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: and the intensity of the relationship that somebody is sort
• 20:10
  Speaker 3: of can't break out of. First of all, is attracted
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: to much the way a drug addict would be attracted
• 20:15
  Speaker 3: to their drugs and gets addicted to that person in
• 20:18
  Speaker 3: the same way. And they tend to go through a
• 20:21
  Speaker 3: cycle as a result of that, of really a cycle,
• 20:24
  Speaker 3: a common cycle. This is Pia Melody's cycle of sort
• 20:28
  Speaker 3: of intensity, you know, walking on eggshells, abuse, forgiveness, intensity,
• 20:35
  Speaker 3: and then back into these sort of weird cycles. There
• 20:38
  Speaker 3: are various versions, various sort of ways people do that.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: But it is an unpleasant way to live. It's something
• 20:46
  Speaker 3: that even when you get people into treatment, they still
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: need a little of that sometimes. People miss the intensity
• 20:56
  Speaker 3: so much. So it's about getting them to get the
• 20:58
  Speaker 3: balance right, which is very hard. And underlying all of
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: it is really kind of a boundary issue.
• 21:04
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 21:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, where you don't... Self and other... emotions start to
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: get blurred, like where you can be feeling a feeling,
• 21:14
  Speaker 3: can be very intense, feel like you're feeling, but it's
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: really something triggered by somebody else. It's not something primary
• 21:22
  Speaker 3: and spontaneous in your feeling states.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: Now, don't you think a lot of people get it
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: confused between sex addiction? And can you talk about what
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: the difference is between love and sex addictions?
• 21:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, sex addiction is a little more explicitly about the
• 21:41
  Speaker 3: filling of that void and the intensity of the sexual
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: experience that can, you know, many women come to sex
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: addiction through love addiction. They're first love addicted and then.
• 21:53
  Speaker 4: Itching, burning, soreness. When you know it's thrush, you want
• 21:58
  Speaker 4: it gone. Treat the cause, not just the symptoms, with
• 22:01
  Speaker 4: Caniston Combate. They get.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: Preoccupied with the intensity and the sex tends to be
• 22:17
  Speaker 3: the way that it fills that, but much like a drug,
• 22:20
  Speaker 3: it just, it needs constant refilling and increasing intensity over time.
• 22:25
  Speaker 3: Love addiction doesn't include those sorts of behaviors necessarily. Love
• 22:28
  Speaker 3: addiction is this cycle of abuse and intensity. Sex addiction
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: is more and more and more extreme arousal in and
• 22:37
  Speaker 3: around sexuality. Right.
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: Now, what is your thought about celebrities that are using
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: love and sex addiction as excuses in these relationships for cheating?
• 22:50
  Speaker 3: I don't like the... Let's parse that out a little bit.
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: Because when people say they're using an excuse, I get
• 22:59
  Speaker 3: a little bit concerned because... It's like saying somebody used
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: the fact that they got arrested as an excuse to
• 23:09
  Speaker 3: go into treatment for drug addiction, right? If people come
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: to treatment, people do things around their problematic behaviors because
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: somebody forces them to typically, especially in the addictive realm
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: where people really, their brain fights them. The brain is
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: going in a certain direction and something has to come
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: up against something before it will stop going in that direction.
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: And so a spouse that catches that person is often
• 23:35
  Speaker 3: what brings somebody to treatment for sex addiction or, you know,
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: an arrest or some sort of, they hurt themselves, but
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: these are the things that bring them to treatment. Other
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: than before that, they just keep going. Right. So the
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: question then is what do they do with it? If
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: they in earnest engage in serious treatment, and get better. Well,
• 23:59
  Speaker 3: I mean, Terry Crews identified as a, as a porn
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: addict at one point. And to me, it looked like
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: he wasn't excusing anything. He was in treatment doing well
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: and wanted to share his recovery and I, you know,
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: no excuses there. I'm sure he hurt somebody. I'm sure
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: it wasn't pleasant to be in a relationship with him
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: when he was acting out, but I don't see the
• 24:19
  Speaker 3: difference is people who say it, talk about it versus
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: really do something about it.
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: So have you been following like the biggest story in
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: everybody's news cycle for the last week, which is this
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Vanderpump Rules cheating scandal?
• 24:35
  Speaker 3: I have seen it. I don't really know much about it.
• 24:38
  Speaker 3: So fill me in.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: Okay. So, you know, Vanderpump Rules is the show on Bravo.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: And quite frankly, I don't, I haven't really watched that show.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: I don't really follow it. And there was a guy, Tom,
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: who was dating a woman for nine years and he
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: had an affair. He was caught having an affair with
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: one of the friends on the show, a girl in
• 25:01
  Speaker 1: the friend group, this girl, Raquel. And And she just
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: issued an apology blaming love addiction. I'm actually going to
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: read you the statement she made because this just came
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: out yesterday.
• 25:11
  Speaker 2: Is that okay?
• 25:12
  Speaker 3: Is it interesting now that love addiction is so common?
• 25:16
  Speaker 3: I mean, you know what I mean? Back when you
• 25:17
  Speaker 3: and I were talking about it, people would, they just,
• 25:20
  Speaker 3: their eyes would glaze over.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they would be like, it would go over their head.
• 25:25
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: So this was what she issued to Entertainment Tonight. She said,
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: I want to apologize for my actions and my choices,
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: foremost to Ariana and to my friends and the fans
• 25:36
  Speaker 1: so invested in our relationships. There is no excuse, and
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I am not a victim, and I must own my actions,
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: and I deeply regret hurting her. I am reflecting on
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: my choices, speaking to a counselor, and I am learning
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: things about myself, such as my patterns of codependency and
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: addiction to being and feeling loved. I have sought emotional
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: validation through intimate connections that are not healthy without regard
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: for my own wellbeing, sometimes negatively affecting others and often
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: prioritizing the intimate connection over my friendships. I'm taking steps
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: to understanding my behavior and making healthier choices, blah, blah, blah.
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: So she is basically saying that she's a love addict.
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: Now she's gone on a lot. There's been a lot
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: of speculation that she's changed PR firms a bunch of
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: times and that she's really you know, backpedaling and trying
• 26:25
  Speaker 1: to figure out how to do this PR play. So, but,
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: you know, she's claiming it was love addiction that made
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: her do this.
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: Two things. I have no idea if she's speaking sincerely
• 26:37
  Speaker 3: or not, right? I don't know if she, it could
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: have been somebody wrote that for her, but that's a
• 26:42
  Speaker 3: pretty good piece. It's a pretty good description of love
• 26:45
  Speaker 3: addiction and how it works. And what I like is
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: she apologized. She actually says, I'm sorry for what I did. Now,
• 26:52
  Speaker 3: you could argue that then launching into an explanation is
• 26:55
  Speaker 3: sort of, that's where you go, really? Just stay with
• 26:59
  Speaker 3: the apology and cleaning up your side of the street.
• 27:04
  Speaker 3: I think this is where people get a little uncomfortable
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: with this stuff, which is why I kind of like
• 27:09
  Speaker 3: it because it's very educational what she says. The accuracy
• 27:13
  Speaker 3: of what she described, spot on. But it comes off
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: like an explanation for the behavior that led to the apology.
• 27:22
  Speaker 3: And people just want the apology.
• 27:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, 100%. So what else would I want to get into?
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: So recently you were on a show on Fox called
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: Special Forces. Can we talk about that?
• 27:33
  Speaker 3: Of craziness, super craziness.
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: I watched a couple episodes. I thought it was insane.
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: This looked super scary. I cannot believe you did it.
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: You went to Jordan?
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: So they called me, and at the time– you know,
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: I was feeling physically not very well. I'd kept having
• 27:52
  Speaker 3: these episodes of diverticulitis and things. And they called me
• 27:55
  Speaker 3: and went, come on, I'm too old for that. You
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: gotta be kidding, right? And I thought to myself, oh,
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: they need an old guy in the cast for some reason.
• 28:01
  Speaker 3: I thought I would be that guy. Because, you know,
• 28:03
  Speaker 3: they kind of, they slot people into these roles sort
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: of thing. And I thought, that's gotta be why they're
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: calling me because there's no other explanation for it. And
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: I was like, where are you gonna send us? To
• 28:13
  Speaker 3: the Utah desert or something? They go, no, the Middle East.
• 28:15
  Speaker 3: I'm like, what? How am I supposed to, how that's
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: gonna work? And I went out and I started training
• 28:21
  Speaker 3: very hard, like sprinting hills and wearing packs and all
• 28:25
  Speaker 3: this stuff. And it made me feel great. And I
• 28:28
  Speaker 3: sort of responded to it. And I thought, well, maybe
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: this is what I've been looking for. Maybe this will
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: really get me out of my funk. And so then
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: I started fighting for it. Like, hey, I think I
• 28:38
  Speaker 3: want to do this. And then they started pushing back. Like, oh,
• 28:41
  Speaker 3: you need to do all this cardiac clearance and pulmonary
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: VO2s and blah, blah, blah. I sailed through all that stuff.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: that didn't end up being my problem. I had a
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: different problem once I got there, but I'll let, I'll
• 28:52
  Speaker 3: let you ask more questions as we go.
• 28:54
  Speaker 2: Okay.
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: So tell me about the cast. Tell me about some
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: of the people in the cast.
• 28:58
  Speaker 4: Itching, burning, soreness. When you know it's thrush, you want
• 29:03
  Speaker 4: it gone. Treat the cause, not just the symptoms with
• 29:06
  Speaker 4: Caniston Combi, Ireland's number one thrush treatment brand. Caniston Combi,
• 29:10
  Speaker 4: pastry and cream contain cotrimazole.
• 29:12
  Speaker 2: Always read the label.
• 29:13
  Speaker 5: Number one, based on volume sales data. To verify, contact info.ireland.bayer.com.
• 29:19
  Speaker 3: You know, much like you with your cast at Celebrity Rehab,
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: you're having these intense experiences together and it really bonds
• 29:27
  Speaker 3: you up. And in our case, it was suffering and
• 29:31
  Speaker 3: trauma and this extreme conditions and it just bonded us
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: up like crazy. And I'll just say that it happened
• 29:39
  Speaker 3: fast too. They blew us up on a train and
• 29:42
  Speaker 3: they took us hostage and they marched us through the desert.
• 29:45
  Speaker 3: You only see bits and pieces of the misery we
• 29:47
  Speaker 3: went through that day. But by the time we got
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: to our camp, we were having this so-called lunch. And
• 29:54
  Speaker 3: there's 16 of us. I'll tell you more who was
• 29:56
  Speaker 3: in there in a second. But Kate Gosling, who was
• 29:58
  Speaker 3: one of the people in there, Looked up. We were
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: all very quiet. We were shell shocked. And she goes,
• 30:03
  Speaker 3: it was like two in the afternoon at that point.
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: She goes, guys, look at us. They've changed us already.
• 30:09
  Speaker 3: We're like, she's right. Holy shit. We are totally different people.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: And we are a we are a unit now. And
• 30:17
  Speaker 3: it was, you know, Mike Piazza was there and Anthony
• 30:20
  Speaker 3: Scaramucci did a great job. Nastia Lukin, the gold medalist,
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: Gus Kenworthy, another gold medalist, Danny Amendello from the England Patriots,
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: a lot of world-class athletes.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I was going to say, do you think that
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: their ability, you know, the fact that they were athletes,
• 30:35
  Speaker 1: did that make it easier for them to compete?
• 30:39
  Speaker 3: You know, when I look at what happened to us,
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: Dwight Howard, Lakers, you know, and Carly Lloyd, again, a
• 30:46
  Speaker 3: world-class professional soccer player, of course, uh, the world-class athletes,
• 30:52
  Speaker 3: you'll see if you watch the whole series, the staff
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: is kind of talking about that a long way. It's like,
• 30:56
  Speaker 3: of course, it's a world-class athlete. Of course, he's got
• 30:58
  Speaker 3: an edge there, but, um, but even the athletes struggled
• 31:03
  Speaker 3: with the, um, with the emotional part. And, and I,
• 31:06
  Speaker 3: because there was really trying things they put us through
• 31:09
  Speaker 3: and you're always off balance and you never know what's coming.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: You kind of have to figure out what's right and
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: wrong and what you're supposed to do without any instruction.
• 31:16
  Speaker 3: It's very weird. Um, But I think youth was a significant,
• 31:21
  Speaker 3: I think that was the main, that was a main issue.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: In my own case, I developed heat stroke and brain
• 31:28
  Speaker 3: swelling and dehydration and ended up in the ICU after
• 31:34
  Speaker 3: just one day of this training. Physically, we were diving
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: out of helicopters into the Red Sea and things. Emotionally,
• 31:41
  Speaker 3: I loved it. I was having the greatest day. And
• 31:44
  Speaker 3: all of a sudden, I got sick. And it came
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: out of nowhere. I was shocked and I got sick
• 31:49
  Speaker 3: and I got sick fast. And it was five liters
• 31:54
  Speaker 3: of IV fluid before I could stand up again. And
• 31:56
  Speaker 3: when I look back on what happened, first of all,
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: I didn't appreciate, we were 120 degree weather a lot
• 32:04
  Speaker 3: of the day and I didn't appreciate what my fluid
• 32:06
  Speaker 3: needs would be at my age. And the other problem
• 32:12
  Speaker 3: was we had two canteens And whenever they came to
• 32:16
  Speaker 3: us and said, are your canteens topped off? If they
• 32:19
  Speaker 3: weren't tapped off, they punished the whole group. So I
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: always said, I'm fine. And I never was fine. I
• 32:25
  Speaker 3: never had enough water. And I think the water they
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: gave us was 110 degrees. The water just sat out
• 32:30
  Speaker 3: in the sun and it was hard to get cooled down.
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: If I were to do it again, I would get
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: much more of the sort of liquid IV tripe electrolyte stuff.
• 32:40
  Speaker 3: I would drink constantly a lot and I would constantly
• 32:44
  Speaker 3: pour water over my head or something to try to
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: get the temperature right. You know, I thought this kind
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: of heat stroke happened to 85 year old little old ladies,
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: much to my, much to my surprise, it happened to me. Right.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: It was bad. It was rough.
• 32:59
  Speaker 1: So it's one thing to be physically fit, but also
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: I noticed just from the few episodes, you really have
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: to be mentally there. And it took a lot of
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: mental stuff.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: They make a lot of the mental stress. And it is,
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: you know, as you see, as you go on, if
• 33:13
  Speaker 3: you watch more of it, the mental gets very intense.
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: But I didn't, that was not my issue yet. It
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: was literally keeping up physically, period. And when they were
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: trying to get me sort of rehydrated, I wanted to
• 33:25
  Speaker 3: go back in. And something you don't see, you get
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: so bonded up with your group. I was in the
• 33:31
  Speaker 3: medic unit and I could hear that they were paying
• 33:34
  Speaker 3: the man that night. They were getting punished. And I
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: started crying. I was like, I need to be out.
• 33:38
  Speaker 3: I should be with, I hear them suffering. I need
• 33:41
  Speaker 3: to be with them. And again, as you know, not
• 33:44
  Speaker 3: everything goes on TV.
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: Right. Great.
• 33:47
  Speaker 2: That's nice.
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Great background on you that I don't think a lot
• 33:51
  Speaker 1: of people know. So I guess my last question for
• 33:53
  Speaker 1: you is like, what is on your radar right now? Like,
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: what are the biggest things that you're doing, seeing, hearing
• 33:59
  Speaker 1: in the medical field, the addiction field? Like what, what's
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: in your focus right now?
• 34:05
  Speaker 3: I'm trying, I still do, you know, I still do
• 34:09
  Speaker 3: outpatient medicine and I still, um, am asked to you know,
• 34:12
  Speaker 3: help out with addicts and alcoholics all the time. I
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: do that work essentially for free now because I feel
• 34:18
  Speaker 3: like I've got, I've had this incredibly rich experience and
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: I just want to kind of give it back. What
• 34:26
  Speaker 3: Susan has set up is a streaming show. I do
• 34:28
  Speaker 3: three days a week on Tuesday, Wednesday, and Thursday at
• 34:31
  Speaker 3: three o'clock Pacific time. And really, I, you know, I
• 34:34
  Speaker 3: think what that program has become is trying to make
• 34:37
  Speaker 3: sense of the pandemic, trying to talk to voices that
• 34:39
  Speaker 3: have been silenced, trying to learn something. I feel like
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: she's booked it too far in one direction. We got
• 34:44
  Speaker 3: to get it back in another direction because I'm agnostic
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: on a lot of stuff. And I just want to
• 34:50
  Speaker 3: understand what we got right, what we got wrong, how
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: to be able to give informed consent to patients on
• 34:56
  Speaker 3: certain topics that seem a little obscured by all kinds
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: of political nonsense. And I want to survive that. People
• 35:04
  Speaker 3: somehow believe today that if you talk to people with,
• 35:08
  Speaker 3: forget agree with, just speak to somebody with outlying opinions,
• 35:13
  Speaker 3: you're a criminal, essentially. So I'd like to survive and
• 35:19
  Speaker 3: help restore our conversation to civility and liberalism as it
• 35:29
  Speaker 3: was intended. Right.
• 35:31
  Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on any pandemics in the future, COVID-19?
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: Type situations there there are a few things that have
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: come out of this that are jump out at me
• 35:41
  Speaker 3: one is that our public health officials have um fiat
• 35:45
  Speaker 3: i mean full you know totalitarian authority in an emergency
• 35:50
  Speaker 3: and i think we want to have some checks and
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: balances to that at least some people that are saying
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: hey you need to justify what you're doing you know
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: somebody elected let's say just thinking these things with the
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: public health official number one number two people are so
• 36:05
  Speaker 3: um distrusting of everything now. I have such grave concerns.
• 36:09
  Speaker 3: Like I said, I have been an acolyte and a
• 36:13
  Speaker 3: fan of Anthony Fauci. And people took things I said
• 36:17
  Speaker 3: at the beginning of the pandemic to try to reduce
• 36:19
  Speaker 3: anxiety because I knew panic was not going to make
• 36:21
  Speaker 3: things better. It's going to make things worse. And what
• 36:23
  Speaker 3: I would say at the end of things I was
• 36:25
  Speaker 3: saying that sounds like I'm minimizing COVID, which I did
• 36:28
  Speaker 3: not intend, trying to minimize panic. I would always say
• 36:31
  Speaker 3: at the end, Please listen to Dr. Fauci. Listen to
• 36:34
  Speaker 3: the CDC. I have a lot of experience with Fauci.
• 36:35
  Speaker 3: You can count on that guy. Well, whenever you see
• 36:38
  Speaker 3: footage of me, that part's, of course, cut out. And Dr.
• 36:41
  Speaker 3: Fauci has become a figure of concern, of conflict, or whatever.
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: My hope is he restores his position to where it's
• 36:49
  Speaker 3: always been. And I sort of have faith that's going
• 36:51
  Speaker 3: to happen. But in the meantime, we've got to figure
• 36:53
  Speaker 3: out what the truth is. And everyone has to be
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: willing to talk about it.
• 36:56
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. I mean, don't you see that that happens
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: a lot, though? People get put on a pedestal. I mean,
• 37:02
  Speaker 1: he got really put up on a pedestal for a while.
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: And then, you know, the same people that put them
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: on a pedestal almost want to throw them off the
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: same pedestal.
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: And then the same people that want to put that
• 37:13
  Speaker 3: person on a guillotine, they themselves end up on a
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: guillotine at some point. People got to study your history, everybody.
• 37:18
  Speaker 3: This is how it works. Yeah. Yeah. this country had
• 37:21
  Speaker 3: a pretty good version of how to prevent those kinds
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: of things from happening. And you sat in the center
• 37:25
  Speaker 3: of all this yourself, Rachel, this is the same thing.
• 37:28
  Speaker 3: You were, you were the leading edge of this stuff
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: and it must've been at least, at least we have
• 37:34
  Speaker 3: kinds of ways of characterizing and understanding it today, but you,
• 37:38
  Speaker 3: who it was, I was there with you. It was
• 37:40
  Speaker 3: hard to understand what was happening to you. It was impossible.
• 37:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 37:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: And people can, you know, do it in all sorts of,
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: you know, circumstances. So it can either be regarding the
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: COVID thing or a scandal, but it is a very
• 37:54
  Speaker 1: similar protocol, right? You know, that you, it's all misinformation
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: or it's a narrative that gets put out, right? And
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: then it's the public that feeds on a narrative and
• 38:05
  Speaker 1: then it just explodes.
• 38:07
  Speaker 3: And people- Let me ask you this.
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: Go ahead.
• 38:09
  Speaker 3: What I've noticed is- As you said, you want people
• 38:13
  Speaker 3: to know you. It's never people that know your real feelings,
• 38:15
  Speaker 3: your heart and what you're doing. It's always people who
• 38:18
  Speaker 3: don't trust that or don't believe that. Number two, the
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: other thing that I found just extraordinary is the stuff
• 38:25
  Speaker 3: that goes crazy and wild is never what I said, ever.
• 38:29
  Speaker 3: It's always what somebody said I said. It's some interpretation
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: of something I said. Was that happening to you too?
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, of course.
• 38:37
  Speaker 1: They take something out of context and then they run
• 38:39
  Speaker 1: with it. But you know what I've always found that's
• 38:42
  Speaker 1: the most interesting? It really, you know, it has much
• 38:46
  Speaker 1: less to do with me than it does about their feelings.
• 38:49
  Speaker 1: And it's what triggers in them. And it's their anger
• 38:53
  Speaker 1: towards me, which was so almost scary because, you know,
• 38:58
  Speaker 1: what happened in my scenario happened between me and really
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: two other people, but it affected the world in a
• 39:05
  Speaker 1: way that made so many people angry that had nothing
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: to do with them.
• 39:10
  Speaker 3: That is your treatment. That is your treatment. You can
• 39:13
  Speaker 3: make sense of the narrative of your life through being very,
• 39:17
  Speaker 3: that's a good boundary to set. It's hard because it
• 39:19
  Speaker 3: is scary.
• 39:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 39:21
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: And I watch it go on. I've watched it for years.
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: You know, so many people like to comment on other
• 39:27
  Speaker 1: people's issues, scandals, downfall. but I think it really has
• 39:32
  Speaker 1: to do with them wanting to make themselves feel better
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: or get a lot of anger out. And, you know,
• 39:37
  Speaker 1: I always try to caution people, you know, like you
• 39:40
  Speaker 1: don't know what's going on in that scenario because you're
• 39:43
  Speaker 1: not in it. You don't have the facts. You don't
• 39:45
  Speaker 1: even know the truth. So I always try to make
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: sure people realize that the media doesn't have all the facts.
• 39:53
  Speaker 1: They're just reporting what they know. And sometimes they have
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: a spin on it. And people really need to be educated.
• 40:00
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of ignorant people out there. And then
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: people listen to the ignorant people. And it's ignorant people listening.
• 40:09
  Speaker 3: The people are getting high on it on social media
• 40:11
  Speaker 3: and stuff these days, I think, in some weird way.
• 40:13
  Speaker 3: Can I ask you a personal question?
• 40:14
  Speaker 2: Of course.
• 40:16
  Speaker 3: Did your grandmother pass away since we last were together?
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: Yes. Yes.
• 40:20
  Speaker 3: Okay. Everything you, that must've been a tough one for you.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was tough, but it was tough because it
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: was when my daughter, I was pregnant with my daughter.
• 40:31
  Speaker 1: So Yeah. So, I mean, it's been a while, so, um,
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: it was tough because I was very excited to have
• 40:39
  Speaker 1: her in my life for that. Um, but you know,
• 40:43
  Speaker 1: it was important to me.
• 40:44
  Speaker 3: I'm really sorry. Cause I know you were working on
• 40:46
  Speaker 3: that relationship. I'm sorry.
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: But I did get to tell her that I was
• 40:49
  Speaker 1: pregnant with my daughter. So she got to hear that news.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: So that was a good thing.
• 40:54
  Speaker 3: And are you and your mom? Okay.
• 40:55
  Speaker 1: Is that, it's so funny that you bring that up
• 40:58
  Speaker 1: because I, I, I do know that you know my
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: history with my mother because you were very good at
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: helping me set boundaries with my mother. My mother is
• 41:08
  Speaker 1: very close with my daughter. I am still not close
• 41:13
  Speaker 1: with my mother, but my daughter has a great relationship
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: with her.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: So let me tell you something interesting. I had a
• 41:19
  Speaker 3: similar experience with my father where we weren't that great,
• 41:24
  Speaker 3: but he did such a wonderful job as a grandfather
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: of I was able to let go of my stuff.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: It didn't matter because he was doing so much for
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: the kids. Are you experiencing anything like that?
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: No, you're a bigger person than me. I'm not able to.
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: Well, it didn't happen right away. It did not happen
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: right away. We'll see if it happens.
• 41:40
  Speaker 1: Well, I'm 48, so it's still not right away. I mean,
• 41:43
  Speaker 1: it's been many years.
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: But I mean, you may one day have such appreciation
• 41:48
  Speaker 3: for what she does for your daughter that you just go,
• 41:51
  Speaker 3: it's too important for me to sit in my resentment.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, no, I'm trying not to be resentful, but it's still,
• 41:57
  Speaker 1: you know, I feel like I turn back into a
• 42:02
  Speaker 1: 14-year-old when I'm around her. And all those feelings.
• 42:06
  Speaker 3: Understood, my dear. I swear to God, it's just uncanny
• 42:10
  Speaker 3: that that's what you call your podcast. You are misunderstood.
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: And I'm here to tell you, I understand you. And
• 42:17
  Speaker 3: you need to keep people around you that do that.
• 42:19
  Speaker 3: And you respond really well to it. So keep people
• 42:22
  Speaker 3: around you that do get you.
• 42:24
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much. I really appreciate you being here.
• 42:27
  Speaker 1: I appreciate your support. I hope that you will come
• 42:30
  Speaker 1: back on next time we want to talk about something
• 42:32
  Speaker 1: important because you are always somebody important to me that
• 42:35
  Speaker 1: I know I can count on.
• 42:36
  Speaker 3: Absolutely. A hundred percent.
• 42:37
  Speaker 2: Anytime. Okay.
• 42:38
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 42:39
  Speaker 1: Thank you so much, Drew.
• 42:49
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