Latest / Unlearning Beautiful / Ep. 47 Unscripted with Kristina & Stefanie: Letting Go of Control, Body Image & Trusting Life
Transcript
- 1028: Today I'm joined again by my colleague and fellow body image coach, Stephanie Michelle. Every few months, Stephanie and I get together for a chat and press record. We never know what we're going to talk about, but it always ends up being a rich conversation. This time around, we ended up sharing how exhausting it is to try to control our lives and why letting go can feel so unsafe, and what our struggles with body image and dieting have actually taught us around this. We also explore what it means to sit with difficult feelings without getting caught up in the stories we tell ourselves. And we ask a question that might just change how you look at your own life. What if you're not getting it wrong? So pull up a seat and join us as we think out loud and explore this wild ride of being human. Welcome to Unlearning Beautiful, a podcast for women tired of trying to look good enough and ready to feel good from within. I'm your host, Christina Bruce. Here to help you let go of the pressure to look right or do it all right, and reconnect with your inner guidance, your natural worth, and what truly makes you feel fulfilled. Because the freedom you're craving was never in how you look. I've been off of social media for the first time ever really since starting this work, which it's been over six years. And I was like, I've I've just gotten off of Instagram altogether and I'm like noticing just changes in my my mood and things like that and my body image. And even just in three weeks, that's that's something I'm still learning about what it is I'm actually figuring out or like what I'm picking up on, but it it's Created a little bit of a shift for me. And it's one of those things where you're like, I knew that, but I also you don't really know it until you know it, you know, or you get out of it. So tell me, what have you been noticing? What's been shifting? Well, my mood is a little bit better. Like I just feel like I have more space for life because I'm very work-oriented and I like that. But I also feel like it sometimes I don't know. sometimes I feel like I'm more work-oriented than life-oriented. So that's been happening. But then I also feel like I've just been a little bit more like I look in the mirror and I'm like, yeah, I don't seem to be as reactive to things that sometimes I have to use tools for. You know, I'm noticing like my brain going to imagery of all the different things that I've been picking up on in social media over years in terms of. seeing other people's bodies and follow following accounts of people that I want to nor like the the normalization of things like cellulite and wrinkles and these things, like that's actually coming to my head more being off of social media than being on it, which is a weird observation. Like I'm almost that's become a little bit more of my default setting off of it. So like are you thinking about it more being off of social media or less? I'm thinking about the normalization more. So for example, like when I feel like my body's changing at an exponential rate, like in perimenopause. And when I'm noticing that, I'm like, yeah, this is what bodies look like. Like this is what a a woman my age looks like. And I'm reflecting on things I've seen on social media that are looking to normalize it is more default than the comparisons, like than the like sort of like curated imagery. Which is an interesting thing because I don't follow curated imagery on social media, but somehow must it's obviously just gets in there anyway. Do you see what I'm saying? Yeah, I I do. And I'm almost wondering why that might be happening. And I'm wondering if it's because like if you're constantly consuming, you're in that mode of where you don't really get the space to sit and embody and like notice the embodiment. And it's like you're now reflecting on it. in your daily life. you're seeing it play out in action because you have the space to do it. And if you're on social media, I know you're then on it to be posting and you're in the conversation and you're thinking about it. And so I'm just wondering if you getting off of it and having this space, it's like you're allowing it to marinate and settle more and witness how it's live being lived out in your life right now. Yes, almost this integration factor that happens when you're not consuming. So I still think on social media, like I'm not just cognitively observing that. Like I feel it when I'm exposed to accounts that I want to be exposed to. Like I'm taking that in. But it's almost like whatever's happening when we're consuming all the time, that's not happening. I don't know if this is just me or not, but I have this tendency to be like, I collect information and then like, okay, when I have. It's like that's when I really let it in. And it's almost like that's happening by nature. And I wonder too, if there's a part of my brain that's like, we're used to seeing these things on a regular basis without having to think about it. We're noticing an absence of that. And so I'm generating it as opposed to just passively absorbing it because it's been, it's missing. Like my brain's noticing what's not there that usually is there. So my brain has to do a little bit more work, I think, in a positive way. to call it up. Like it's it's doing it. So it must be using a bit of a different mechanism going on in there, you know, than just what happens when you are when you receive something. It's like I have to create it now. I have to like recall it on purpose now. That's a good example of how it's working. Yeah. You know, it's like you're actually taking it and it's now a part of your new way of thinking. The fact that it is generating it up on its own. And we may have talked about this before, but the way that things expand and contract. So sometimes taking a step back from something is part of the learning experience. So doing a lot is what we usually value is like learn, do, produce, absorb, like, but almost you can do it for too long and like not have that experience of I'm just gonna like rest. You know, I'm gonna, I'm gonna set sit back, I'm gonna I'm gonna move in like the, I mean, I guess you could think of it like expansion and contraction. It's like I'm gonna contract a little. And in that contraction, something else is happening to integrate the other parts. To me, it reminds me of the conversation about like productivity and rest and the value of that rest piece because there's something actually happening there. And I don't we don't need to value it for that just alone anyway. Like rest is rest by itself. But there is actually. Something to be said of those periods where that that's what I'm saying. the integration is happening a little bit more. And I think your brain is doing something a little bit different. And I've never really done that here, like in body image work. I mean, obviously much gets done in that consumption and in that in that participation, but I'm never really experienced what is it like when I step back from the participation? What happens to my learning then? And I I'm like, This is kind this is nice that I would have assumed my default would have gone back to something else. I would have thought that my primary original language would be still original or still primary. but it seems to have switched, which is like really cool to me because like I'm like, yeah, like that's of course. Like it just feels like of course. Why would I compare myself to a curated image? It doesn't make sense to me anymore. It it that's like been a weird byproduct. Of this time, these past three weeks. I don't know how long it lasts, but like I just noticed that. Have you ever gone off of social media? For a week. Yeah. Yeah. It's a l since I started this work. Like I I have been posting every day almost for years since I started doing this. Yeah. And sometimes it not every day. There's been days I've missed. But in the beginning, gosh, firstly, there's so much that already has just come up by you sharing that. Like the value of the rest and the space. And not to make it like you're like not to turn it into another thing of like where I'm gonna get productive now with my rest. Right. Because I can I can easily turn into that. But the importance of space and the importance of the rest and the not constant consuming, which our culture has take it's just taken us away from that. And if we think about it, that expansion and contraction, like you were saying, it is the natural cycle of nature. Like we've we hear this, like nothing, it's not summer all the time. I mean, don't know, I guess if you're in Ecuador, but even there. they're still gonna have growing cycles. nothing is full on in bloom all the time. It it goes in a natural cycle where it's bloom and it's rest. And and often what it takes for for so many of us to even entertain the idea total of a rest is our bodies or saying, okay, like I'm gonna do it for you. Cause clearly you are not feeling like you can do it for yourself or you're not giving yourself that time. That's the thing that I think about most is I know this. Like I believe all of everything you just said is not news to me in terms of like even what I what I really value, like the overriding of our natural signals and impulses, like what is safety and why is has safety become so unsafe, the things we need to do to be safer now, the things that are almost unsafe to do. And I think about like, well, with body with with recovery from binge eating, like I knew for years kind of like what I needed to do, but I couldn't get to a place where I felt like I could do it, you know? And in this regard too, I feel like I know that I've needed rest. I can, I've felt this for years. I've even wanted I've just wanted some separation from social media for a while, but I didn't feel I didn't I didn't because I don't feel safe enough. You know, like I I don't feel like I can. And n knowing that, like the irony of that, like I I've seen that in myself. And I also respect that process. So I'm not I wasn't like shaming myself for knowing something that I couldn't execute, because I'm like, yeah, that's how it goes. Like for a while, you'll probably be like this. But it's interesting about like I got sick, actually on a trip, on a girl's trip. And after that, I was like, I don't have the energy to give. Like I don't, I don't have it. And then I I just sort of stopped posting. And it wasn't like a a choice, like, I'm gonna do this now. It was like I just, I just can't. And normally I would. Normally I would override that. And I was like, I I can't. And I don't want to. Like, I don't want to right now. I I want to see what's on the other side of this. And I guess it was the first time I felt like that need was more important than the safety, not cognitively, just somewhere inside. I I felt like I need to, which is exactly how I recovered, you know, and it's it's the same process almost of like these years of recognizing a problem, sensing what I need, not being able to offer that to myself fully, and then To finally almost reach this point where in the background my system must have been doing something with that. And okay, well, now, now we're gonna push forth with that a little bit. And yes, getting sick. I don't know that I would have come off if I didn't. but I've kind of been taking the cue of that lower energy. Cause every day I ask myself, like, do I want to post today? And I really like some days I'm like, yes. And then I'm like, no, I don't. I I have some things I could say, but I just don't have the energy to give to it yet. And I'm listening to the energy pattern there. And when I feel that I really want to be there, I'll I'll re-engage. But I haven't. And it scares me. But but I also feel like I've not done this different thing. Like this is the different thing that that it's like you can make, you know, if you do the same thing over and over and expect the same result. You know. I can so relate to that. When talking about the posting, when I started my account, it was almost like I couldn't stop myself from posting because I just had so much that was coming through. And then it started to turn into I have to. Like I gotta, I gotta post every day. I've gotta put something up there. And you know, like it is reminding me like, do I? Do I really need to? And and and it doesn't feel good when I'm trying to force force it. Like I could say something every day, sure. But it's a different energy behind I'm gonna post because I feel like I have to, versus there's this following the the energy. You know, we were talking, you were mentioning that and and that is something that When we stop dieting and trying to control, you know, like it th for a lot of people I notice it feels like they're in a no man's land and that's why it feels unsafe because it's like, well, what do I follow now? Like I don't have the structure or the thing I'm supposed to follow to tell me what to do. But we can tune into an energy, like we can feel it. So so there was always an energy. And I'll tell you what's really interesting. Some of the posts that have really hit for people have been in those moments that I have felt an energy when I'm writing. it's just like pouring through, and I almost can't stop myself from writing it, versus the ones that feel kind of flat because it was forced. Yeah. And it's the same. Like my mind will kick him, god, what's gonna happen if you don't post today? You know, like Probably nothing. nothing wrong is going to happen. But it's just that that fear. And I think it's that conditioned instinct that that drives it. It's it's a fear, it's a survival thing that says I have to be moving. I've got to keep my wheels spinning. Even if I stop, the world is gonna come crashing down around me. And so I think it ties into how we how we treat our bodies and yet. The constant doing and the way that we're operating, in the world with ourselves and our bodies runs counter to the natural rhythms of our bodies and our health and our well-being, which would make sense because, well, if we were to just look at the collective on a whole and diagnose how everybody's doing, it's not like we're doing amazingly well. And it's because I think we are overriding. Our system. And I get it because we've got our structures are set up in it. it's like, yeah, we got to go to work. If you're working at a job, they're not going to be like, I'm just not in the energy flow today to show up, right? So it's like we get it. And it's like that's the catch twenty two. But if we can at least start in the areas where we can. Yeah. and to me, that's the relationship with our bodies and our food and rest and movement and all that kind of stuff. that's a place you can do it that you don't need to keep buying into the constant doing, but there is a a a feeling, I think, or there is a point where we have to find that sense of safety. And maybe it's just through exposure. Maybe it's we take that leap of faith. or maybe, maybe life does it for you. Yeah. And your body does it for you. And it's like after this period, you're gonna say, look at that. The world didn't crash down. And actually, maybe it helped. Yes. And here's the thing that I'm thinking about. Like it's almost like this whole sentiment of like, I, I took this step back or I I I risked something, and it was great. it it worked for me. Almost has this implication like taking, like be participating in the ebbs of life will bring the flows. And that like you're not actually gonna risk the thing you think you're gonna risk. You'll actually like, you know, do better or it'll be better if you if you pull away. But I actually don't think that it works exactly like that because the definition of what we think we're getting or what we're doing it for isn't actually the safest thing. So what I mean by that is when we're talking about let's let's think about that in terms of body image and in my recovery, it was like I could have looked at it like, if I just relax the rules around food. And accept my body for what it is, which is the last thing I felt like I wanted to do. That was the most unsafe thing to do. It's the parallel of going off of social media in terms of what I think I need. I need to have a body I can live in. I need to have a business, I need to have an outlet. Sometimes stepping back doesn't automatically mean or ever mean, you just needed that to like re-engage and you got what you wanted in the end. Is like, no, life was like, that's not what we need. that goal that we have is not the thing. And so that's why it's so hard because you're it's almost like if I step back, I'm risking changing my goal. Like I'm risking changing what I what I believe is like where I'm going. Yeah. Even if I'm willing to go a different route, at least I'm trying to still go to the same place. Like that's hard enough to go a different way. But Really what we're doing, I think, is changing the end result. And there's a part of me, that's well, when I go back on social media, like it'll be fine. The sky won't fall. I'll still have a business. And it's like, well, what if what if I don't actually meant to bring me somewhere else? Yes. You know, like it's so good you're bringing that up. It's so good that you're bringing that up. Yeah. I mean, yeah, why? Like because like are you resonating with that or like is that what you've seen? 100%. No, I mean a hundred percent because it That that is the fear. So it's not only a grip of the control of okay, fear of letting go of control, the world's gonna crash down, but there is it's an attachment and a control to some desired outcome that we think we need in order to feel okay. So it goes beyond that because it's like, what if it actually shapes like the trajectory of my life? And And God, I I just get so excited talking about all this stuff. Because it's like, okay, so so because I explore this stuff for myself all the time. And it's the it's goes beyond with this idea of safety. So safety is actually a big thing I've been exploring in my life. So so for me personally, it's been being self-employed, doing this work versus having I've had a stable job. So I'm only really four or five years out of that. And and that was a huge leap for me. Like it's like I feel like the body image work that I did set me up to be able to go next level now with really anchoring into what is safety. And it has even meant though, Because I've had this idea, this is my work, this is what I want to do with this coaching work. But I also now am realizing I have to be open to what if it's not what I do, you know, forever? Or what if it means that I've got to take a slightly different route? Because my mind says, this is how it should look. This is what I need. I need it to look this way. And so then of course. We're gonna think we need to do whatever we need to do. So I need to post every day. I need to, what are all the things I need to do to make sure this is the thing that I get it set up the way that I want it to be? And that's where the control and the I can't relax and I can't be open to maybe where life wants to take me. And then when we think, I can only be happy if I'm doing this certain thing. That's a limitation that we're imposing on ourselves. Because our happiness, and this is a even a bigger discussion too, but it really can't be dictated by everything needing to be the way that I want it to be, because it's not always going to be that way. And this is like where the body is just one of those pieces. I need the body to look a certain way. In order for me to feel okay, in order for me to feel happy, in order to me to have any semblance of joy. And yet, what I've been like discovering and learning for myself is that firstly, trying to control and grip and keep everything how I want creates its own dissatisfaction and its own stress. And that my happiness, like as I've already learned, is not contingent on my body being a certain way. Well, it's like, I need to expand that out to everything. It doesn't like because if cause so long as if I need things to be just as I want, all my ducks in a row, everything how I like, I'm gonna be happy when they are that way and I'm gonna be upset when they're not. And the truth is, is you're never like it's very rarely you're gonna get them all perfectly lined up and then something's gonna knock one of them off. And then you're like, God, I gotta fix that, I gotta grab that duck and put it back in its row. And so we're always trying to do it. So it is a relaxing of of that too. It's the relaxing of, like you said, the goal. It's the relaxing of the ideas. It's and that, you know, that really want to talk about going with the flow of life. Like flow, like it's the difference between allowing ourselves to relax down the river and swimming against the current because no, no, no, I really wanted it to be this way. But look at all the times that life is forcing change for us. You know, whether it's some we lose a loved one or whether it's like, you know, I was in this situation, I was telling you that like we had put my daughter in a different school. And, you know, like things that I thought I needed her in this school in order for me to be happy. You know, that's really what it was when I looked at it. And my mind said Nope, this is the only place that she can go. She can't go anywhere else. This is the best place for her. And yet life was pushing us in a different direction. Yeah. Now, do I know what the outcome is going to be of that? I still don't. But I what I can say is she's not unhappy going there. And in fact, my husband would say she's even happier when he drops her off than he did at the old school. So, like, who knows? But it really is a releasing of so much more. And and And it's it's the feeling that so long as I need things to be a certain way, I'm not gonna be happy. And then of course, then if you think that, you're not gonna want to let go. Yeah. And it's never clean. It's never like once I let go, I can see how it all really was supposed to work out. I think there's lots of like little insults to trying something new that make us feel like, see, that's why I don't. That's why I didn't do it because it hurts to do it this way or the rewards of when we do, when like our what we want matches what we're pushing to do. And it's like, it worked out that time. Like, the, you know, I know I need to like not be holding on to this body size, but like, let me just try, let me just try like low carb. And see, it did work. It worked. And like now I feel good. And now I feel like, no, this is the right path for me. I do need to be in this body. Like I got the reward. I got the hit that reinforced back to me this is the right way until it goes away again. And I I think after patterns of recognizing that every time I'm trying I'm trying to get over here, I keep getting there and then and then being defaulted from there. And then that there's that's where I think trust ends up coming from because you you're like, I this I've been trying at this for a long, I'm trying to fit a square peg into a round hole for long enough that I understand it's not gonna fit. But every time I try to do it a different way, it also doesn't feel good. But I now can see that that doesn't mean it's not the right. there's a gonna be like a lot of growth edge here. it's not just life is calls to you and you listen and it works. Yeah, because it can talk about it and it makes it sound like that's it, that's what we want, right? Like we're wanting the cleanest. I don't ever want to, I don't wanna feel confused. I don't want to. I don't want to experience pain. I don't, that's what we're trying to do is we're trying to avoid it. And yet I think another thing too is realizing well, that's also part of life as well. Because we're gonna, we're gonna have challenge. that's how we grow. And so we can't it's not like if everything was just a smooth path, there would be there would be You don't do it that way. We'd be like, life is calling, energy's flowing left. I guess I'll go left. But it's like, what if the energy is flowing left? to your point where I think you were mentioning this. what if it's taking you left and then it's taking you to a place that you're like, this is wrong? I didn't want to go here. But what if you needed to go there? Yeah. Exactly. That g it's an incredible amount of trust to do that. to be like, this doesn't feel right. This doesn't feel right. It it might be though. And that's part of even even when we talk about intuition. large scale, listening to our bodies, listening to our our guts, sometimes those signals really feel the opposite. Like it's like sometimes my my intuition is telling me, get away from here, get away from here. This is not safe. This is not safe. And if I'm listening to that too much, it like what's the difference between intuition and fear, you know, or like intuition and change. Like change doesn't feel comfortable. It feels wrong. And and sometimes it can be. I think that's the other piece of this is that sometimes trying to change too quickly is overwhelming. And then it is not exactly the right quote unquote thing for us to do at that moment in time. So I think there's so much nuance to like understanding how to listen because I have a client who's like, you know, this is not not just one client, but like many people have been like, I went all in because it felt like the thing I was afraid to do that I needed to do. And it ended up completely overwhelming them, you know, and like completely being. not a great decision at that moment in time. And that doesn't mean, you know what I mean? what if that was the what if that was the right decision to experience the feeling of overwhelm? Because if we don't also have the experience of the contrast, how can we know? It's like if I never experience overwhelm, then I can't regulate myself to a point of like, actually, no, nope, that was too much. I'm gonna pull back a little bit. So I I really think it does end up coming down to, and it was something I was talking with somebody about the other day. They were they were like kind of in this place of wanting to let go of dieting, but still similarly like I feel maybe it's just one more book, or maybe it's just the the other thing. And and they were asking me, like, you know, sh what should I do? Like, should I read, do I read this other book or do I not? And I'm like, I can't tell you what to do. And I was like, but what? Because it's your journey. I go, but what if you can just know you can't make a wrong decision? So I think that's the other piece to it is we're it's this idea that we can get it wrong, we can screw up in some way, or we're like, I followed my intuition and then it was wrong. Well, who said it was wrong? Like if we have the idea that right means it's always supposed to feel good, then Then yes, we're gonna think we did it wrong. But if if this really is just a game of like learning and figuring out as we go, and it often means just like bumping up against the sides in order to do it, then can can we ever really get it wrong? Yes. A hundred percent. And it's so scary to get it wrong. Cause it feels really life and death sometimes. But I I think that's exactly it. It's it's I think maybe there's a mainstream idea that like. Things are cleaner than they are. And we all know it. We've all seen the the the posts that are it's not linear. progress is we all know that. But then And yet everybody's posts are and yet we just see everybody's posts on Instagram of like the you know, like they say it, the highlight reel. But it's always being spoken to as if it it's linear. Right. Cause I think a lot of times we tell we we speak to things in retrospect. we're like, Yeah, that was too vulnerable to share because I wasn't sure how it would end. And when it ended well, I'll tell you about it. because and so we're not necessarily seeing the middle parts of like this feels completely wrong. I feel like I and I and and maybe I didn't do the thing that was the best for me, but maybe that helped me understand what was. Like we're not seeing that part of the process 'cause it's I think very vulnerable sharing those pieces. Yeah. And I think what's just really standing out to me is the idea that the idea that you can get it wrong is just an idea. And look at how bad it feels when we believe that. So it's like, does that feel good to believe that you got it wrong? Okay, like, but that's just a belief. You can choose to believe that. Or how does it feel when it was like actually no, like there's there's no such thing? It's just yeah, I'm lifing. Like life is lifing. Yeah. what's the corrosive part about that, I think, is the shame that comes from that. So like some I'm thinking about like a you know, somebody who might say, like, but I always get it wrong. I've I've been getting it wrong year after year after year, like my life is miserable or like I feel miserable all the time because I'm always getting it wrong. And like, is that shame then? Like, you know what I mean? Like is like I'm doing it wrong and I feel bad about myself and like is that what's actually limiting, you know, sort of like evolving into a do a different place? Because I I meet a lot of people. Who feel a lot of negative, have a lot of self-criticism around being wrong. And like there is a different trajectory then going on when that the belief is that we're broken or like we're we can't get it right. Like in, you know, and and I think I think shame is the element there versus the actual like, you know, outcome or the actual, you know, nonlinear path. For sure. For sure. Because if if if you didn't feel bad about getting it wrong. So what's the feeling bad? shame? You know, I don't know. I'm I'm not good enough. Like some idea. Like the yeah, that has to be layered onto it. And I mean, again, like what's wrong? okay, I I don't know, sure. In some in some like in some cases like, okay, I get a math problem wrong. You know, like sometimes things are right or wrong, but it's the It's the beliefs and what are we making it mean? I think that's the big thing. What are we making it mean about ourselves? And that's the shame, right? Like as you're talking about, am I making this mean something about me that I quote unquote got it wrong? So it's two things. Cause I think on one level, yeah, sure, you can get something wrong. But also sometimes I think we think we get something wrong, but that's just an idea. Right. Yeah. Yes. I think interpretation, the light you're spinning on something. so I'm trying to think of it's so hard to hold all of that. it's easy to talk about it, but then when you're living through it, it's so like sometimes I think you lose touch with those truths or like those ideas. And I and I that's also part of it, like remembering and forgetting. Like sure. You know, I have to bring myself every day to Some kind of releasing of some attachment that I then will cling to again tonight, and then doing that over and over again and being like, why can't I remember this? Like, why why do I have to remind why is so hard? Like, why do I have to remind myself of this every day? And it's like, well, it's part of being human too, I think to attach to these things because it is safer. We don't like discomfort. Of course we don't. And we don't know the outcome. We don't, we can't trust. And if we have histories where we're like, I repeatedly get this wrong. I repeatedly feel like I'm not enough. I repeatedly feel like I get the feedback from the universe that things don't want to go my way. the that becomes more and more of a belief. And then, you know, we play that out more and more. We interpret things then through that lens most readily. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Which then ends up becoming kind of a self fulfilling prophecy. Yes. I think it's all very human. Like I think that the way we participate in all this is like really normal, but it but like sometimes just looking at it like okay, okay. And I think there's hope in that because I felt so stuck before in time, you know, kind of like, it's like the same old, same old over again, over again, over again. Like, am I just is this just my it's just just me, you know? And it's kind of like, well, it is when we're looking at it this way all the time, you know, like and it is different to look at it through a different lens. And I do have to remind myself to do that, which means it's not my default setting. And so there is there is more to like there's more opportunity for me when I when I'm changing what like my beliefs about myself are or what my beliefs about life are. And even just at like in my mid forties, like that is new to me to even like consider doing it like that, like to to on understand there's another lens. I guess. so that's what I'm trying to do now. Like, you know, kind of like, where what is this? This is like really such a repeat of things that have come before when it came to food and body image. We've talked about whack-a-mole, you know, like that this is another place that the similar themes show up. Maybe there's a little bit more implicit trust this time because because I've navigated that before and I know it doesn't feel good and I know that doesn't mean that's not a sign to like go away. but it also doesn't mean it's easy. So yeah. I mean as being like, you know, you're saying like it's very human. Like, yeah, it is. And I don't think it's not supposed to be that way. Like, We're in the mud playing. Yeah. we're gonna get dirty. So it's not about not getting dirty. Yeah. But if we can I think it's a matter of seeing that I I keep coming back to that it's like, what if you're not getting life wrong? 'Cause I think we do. I think we think that we should be d ik doing it different than we are. Do you remember I don't know if it was the last time we met or the time before that? But you were like working on something about beliefs where you were turning away from a belief when it would come up or something like that. and I, you know, I'm sure there's some relationship about like about some connection there. Like, do are you still doing that? Does that feel like so not yeah, for sure. And it's so I mean, like, I look at my own kind of journey through all of this, and it's very much like there's a piece of me that's always like human doesn't want to get dirty. I don't. I don't want to get dirty. yeah, we want we want to just feel good all the time. for I don't want to get it wrong. this whole idea. Anything I share, it's like always because I've done it. I feel like it's like like I share it from personal experience, you know? And yes, so that being said, it's I'm always drawn to because if I was to look at it and say, what do I value the most in my life? And I can say that what it is is not suffering. And what that means though, and what I've like how I would have thought it, how I thought it meant in the beginning was I never experience hardship or everything just feels easy. But what I've come to learn as I keep going along this path is that that it does suffering is not the same as experiencing challenge or pain. Yeah. So pain can exist, but resistance to pain is suffering. Yeah. You know, it's like not, it's like the old Buddhist saying of the second arrow. Yeah. It's like you get hit with an arrow, that's pain. The second arrow comes when you resist it, when you blame yourself for it, when you think it should be different. that to me is what I would call suffering. So for me, I'm always looking and kind of onto the ways in which suffering is happening within me that's unnecessary, like that I don't need it. And so it it's always in noticing the feeling first. So what what is suffering but a feeling? And so for me, it shows up a lot as anxiety and worry, right? Like that, that's usually what's constant for me. And so what I play around with on a daily basis is notice feeling and and to step like so. Before I was talking about turning away from it. Well, now I could say it, I could call it a stepping back from it. So it's like, Can I see that I am here and there's a feeling of anxiety or there's a feeling of worry? I can experience that, but I don't have to suffer through it as much when I'm not mired in it. So once I'm in the story of it and I'm in the worry and I'm in the anxiety, I will suffer because whatever the story, the the picture that's going on in my mind. The thoughts that are happening about me are terrible. Like they're not good. But if but when I can pop out of it, because here's the thing, I can't force myself to pop out of it. I'll just will. And I can say, okay, I'm just gonna witness this feeling of, here's, yes, here's my conditioned habitual thinking pattern around this situation. This always shows up. This is so familiar to me. I usually wake up with it in the morning. It's even there before I have a chance to like do anything else. What if I didn't have to get rid of it? And I could instead just pull myself back from it and witness it. And so it is that that makes a difference in how I'm able to to be with it. So then it's like. Do I have a thought there that tells me this is wrong? Do I have a thought there that says I shouldn't be feeling this again? All forms of suffering. So it's like, okay, great. Well, guess what? It's here. What are you gonna do about it? you're gonna beat yourself up for it now? Are you gonna think it's a problem? Well, what if it wasn't a problem? And so it's more or less of like not. It's a form of turning away, but not in a way of rejecting it or denying it. So it's not like head in the sand, everything's great, la la la. it's not about suppressing it, but it's more a matter of can I actually be with it in a in a g in a way that I am just not like engaging with it, but I'm still feeling it. Yeah. There's two questions I have. Or one's a question. I don't know what the other one is yet. one is that like why don't if is it a matter of why would we not all be doing that? Like what's hard about doing that? Is it just a matter of like remembering to do it, or is there more resistance we have for some reason? And two, like it reminds me of the idea of like accepting weight, you know, or accepting a binge or something like that. And then kind of like, The response being, if I don't resist it, I'm okaying it. I'm I'm things will never change because it's like giving it permission to be there and that that huge misconception of like what does it really mean to say, like, what if it's okay to have this feeling? Like what is it what does it what does non resistance mean that isn't enabling? You know what I mean? Like I think those two things get conflated. What's an do you have an example, a specific example you can think of? Yeah, I work with a lot of people who have really significant trauma histories. And sometimes, like like or lots of times, like maybe most of the time, things are really hard. And, you know, being in a body is really hard. And the kind of like idea of consistently letting that be okay feels like I don't wanna I am s I am in pain all the time. For me to be okay with this feels like I'm co signing on. on that, on and I'm not okay with it. I'm not okay with the amount of pain that I'm in. And so there is like a yeah. Is it like a physical pain or is it an emotional psychic pain. Yeah, like emotional pain. Well so okay, so I would look at that this way then. The first thing I would ask is like, okay, well, what have you done already to try to get rid of it? Like have you tried some things? have you b have you been d have you been trying to get rid of this for as long as you can remember? Has it worked? Did it get rid of it? Did you temporarily have a momentary relief from it, but then maybe it came back? So, okay, so it didn't, so it's still here. Okay. So all of that attempt was a fear of it. It's so so what is it really? It's energy. Okay, if it's a psychic pain, it's an emotional pain. But what is it? It's a feeling. It's a feeling. Well, what's feeling? What is it? It's sensation. It's energy, right? We store that. That gets stored within us when we've had something significant happen that was extremely hard to deal with. And we did not know how to deal with, and we did not want to deal with it. And we could not, probably, probably, oftentimes, especially when we're young. We just can't. We don't have the capacity to. It will not go away unless we feel it. So if it goes, there's there's a there's a teacher that I really f that I really like. His name is Michael Singer. He's written several books. I don't know if I mentioned him before. His famous book is The Untethered Soul, it was like Oprah's book club or whatever. And he he ought he says this if it went, if it came in with pain, it's gotta go out with pain. And so we can spend our lives trying to avoid the pain, but it's not going anywhere the more that we resist it. 'Cause we keep it there. So the only option then to do the thing that we haven't done. Is to actually just allow it and be okay. And what I find is because it's energy, because literally feeling is energy, it's not like a, metaphor, it's lit legitimate. Like science will prove it. Energy, when it is freed from its container, dissipates, right? So energy in its essence wants to move. So if we stop. Holding it with our through our will to try to resist. I can't feel it. I can't feel it. And and totally understandable. It's like, I get it. it's like not about saying, you should, I get it. We all do, we all do this. When we can start to increase our capacity to say, well, if I could just be okay with it because it's here anyways, well, then it's like we open the container for that energy to start to disperse. And if it was big and if it was a lot, don't expect it to all go at once. But if you could see it as like boiling water, that when you take the lid off of it, that steam goes up over time, that water is gonna go down. And that's exactly what happens when we allow ourselves to accept it. It's here. What feels better? Like, If somebody comes to your door and is like, hey, can I come in? And you're like, no, and you slam the door in their face, versus if they're like, yeah, come on in. Well, one feels more like welcoming and huh? And the other one's like, okay, there's an energy there. It's the same with our own feelings. Our feelings can't hurt us. There's a memory, if there's a story or a memory attached to it, that's what we're afraid of. But in the moment that we're practicing feeling it, we are safe. It is done. It is over. You know, Byron Keaty will always say, Do you know what I love about the past? It's over. It's done. It's just we had this unprocessed feeling that we we didn't deal with at the time, that we often couldn't. But now, Little by little, it's not like we need to just dive in and deal with it all, but to the capacity that you're able, practice just feeling it. Okay, come on in. You're here anyways. And we actually through that allow it to move out of our system instead of staying there. And so Michael Singer talks about all of this in his books. Like that's his whole thing. He just calls it letting go. Like you just let go of the feeling that's there. And And it'll say, if you can't do the big stuff, just start with the little stuff. Practice it daily, the little irritation, the annoyance that you feel, instead of resisting it, instead of hang instead of being mired in it, just okay, if I could just feel it and let it go, I'm just not gonna, I'm just gonna let it go. It's the same with the big feeling. So by not accepting it, you're keeping it there. And it's like you've been doing that your whole life. So maybe this is Try something different. That's you're not somatic experiencing trained, are you? No. That's like pr exactly like the the way that you described, like with the container. Even like the idea of like making space and with the container is exactly the premise of like, which is really, I guess, like any body work. It's it is energy work and it's looking at emotions and pain as And trauma as, just the stored energy. And I think maybe the the nuance is that. I don't think we recognize most of the time when we're in a story. And sometimes I think feeling something is with a story that recycles the energy and what it is to which is why it feels like it doesn't work and it feels like it makes it worse and it can make it worse. Yeah. And that's the that's the subtlety because if there's story in there, you will prove you will re-overwhelm yourself over and over again and almost re-re traumatize that pattern. And that's why it's it's a tricky story. Yeah, it just keeps the pattern in place. it it it so yeah. So that is the biggest misconception that I think people have with feeling. So I'll often say, like, can you allow yourself to feel it? And people are like, Yeah, I'm feeling it all the time. Right. Like, what are you talking about? I feel. Yes. Of course I feel. And I'm like, Yes, yes, yes, I get it. We all We feel. But there is a difference that the key differences is you have to be able to be grounded in what would be called so, so not in this is different, I guess, from what you probably would call it in somatic training, but this is what in this is really like based on spirituality, actually. Yeah. Where this really comes from is the the witness. They'll call it the witness. So there is a there We are this just goes like super deep, but we are aware. It's really simple. Like, you know, if I was to say, like, are you aware? What would you say? Yes. Yes. Yes. Of course. Like what are you talking about? Right. Like we, we, yeah, we're aware, right? Yeah. Okay. I know. Like things are going on. So the awareness, we are aware of something. Right. So I so simply I am aware of this really white ring light, which I think is kind of totally washing me, you know, like just very white. I'm looking at it right now. Just my thoughts. I was like, I could have used a different tone. But, anyways, that's a side note. I'm aware of this light. I'm aware of sound. Okay. We're aware of things. I'm aware of feeling. So we have to be able to kind of get ourselves to a place where I can be aware of. of the feeling. I can be aware of the thought. As soon as I'm aware of the thought, of the image in my mind, of the sensation, we're not in it. If we don't know we're aware of the thought, then we're caught in it. And that you can't, and that's that's not you're gonna, you're not gonna be releasing emotion from that place. That's when you're gonna keep cycling in it. So this is why I always harp to people about meditation. I'm always like, meditate because meditation trains you to be aware. It trains you to pop. Out of the story of the thought so that you can build the capacity to not get sucked into it. Because here's the thing: that is a strong energy. So I'm so I'm talking about like, just feel the energy. Yeah, but like there can be a strong energy and a strong story that will suck you back in. And if we don't have the capacity to stay in the place of awareness with it. It's gonna be really hard to feel it. That's why, Michael Singer will say, start with the little stuff. Yeah. But when we can practice meditation, we're actually training ourselves to increase our capacity to pop out of the feeling and the thought so we can be aware. When we are present to it and aware, then we can allow ourselves to feel from a place though, we're not we're actually it's like we're we're on standing on solid ground. versus if we were in it, we're just whipped around by the waves. Yes. Like a degree of separation. Yes. Exactly. I mean, even that like I think it's like figuring out how you access that portal. Cause I would say like even even in the awareness, like I I think at a t a certain time in my life it would have like, I'm very aware of how I'm feeling. Like I'm very aware of it. But I still would have been in the story. You know what I mean? Like, how do we learn in what weight, whether we're going at it through spirituality, physics, somatic experiencing, cognitive, however, however you find what does it mean to be separate from your story? I think we have to experience what that means before we understand really what we're asking ourselves to do. My favorite, yeah, my favorite I can textu the very first moment that I had a visceral experience of that of like, I see a difference of being out of my story. And it was when I went to a retreat with Byron Katie. So she used to run what she called the school for the work. And it was a nine day workshop. And you you were with her for nine days and you went through her process. And her process of what she calls the work. I can't remember if I shared it with you before, but it's basically a line of inquiry. So you're you you identify a thought and you ask these questions and you look at turnarounds. And the most powerful question I find, and can be the hardest, is question four, which is so you so you pick a thought, I don't know, I'm not good enough. Okay. Like just a very general one we can all relate to. So you would pick a situation. So, okay, where in this where what happened in this thing that you thought you weren't good enough? You know, like I don't know, I failed a test. So you'd put yourself back in that time and you would ask yourselves these questions. So I'm not good enough. Is that true? And then you would answer, did I feel like I was not good enough at that time? And then you just answer, honestly, yeah, no, I'm not good enough. And then they would ask, Okay, can you absolutely know that it's true that you're not good enough? So that already is a second one to kind of open up a little bit of like, yeah, you really know. And some people might say like a hundred percent, yeah, yeah, nope, for sure. I know. I'm not good enough. Or somebody might say, well, actually, maybe no, I don't know. And then question three is how do you react? What happens when you believe that thought? So you would go back and just look like, well, what did I do? Like, what was my reaction when I failed that test and I thought I wasn't good enough? like I I felt bad, like I my stomach dropped. I was comparing myself to my friends, like I was worried about what my parents were gonna think. Like, I was beating myself up about it. So what that is is the experience of being mired in the story. So it's like, and it's a, and it's hellish, it's awful, it's, it's not a good place. And then question four comes in and it asks, okay, now what I really want you to do is stay in that situation, like where you found out you failed that test. And now look at who would you be in that moment without the thought. that I'm not good enough. So you failed the test, but that thought, I'm not good enough, like couldn't enter your mind. Who would you who would you be? Like what would you notice without the thought? And then you you start to say, okay, well if I couldn't have that thought, well, I I I guess I would feel okay about myself because like there wouldn't be a thought there to put me down. Right. So like without that thought, I'd feel okay. Well, I just noticed that I failed the test. I would take it more neutrally, I wouldn't be comparing myself. I might start thinking about, huh, I'm curious what I got wrong. what maybe do I need to do on the next test? So that is an experience of being in yourself, but not caught in the story. Now I'm not saying that when you're feeling feelings, you're gonna can be completely that removed from it, because often what I find is you'll still feel the feeling of the story, but at least you notice that you're feeling it. But you're not so but that but why I bring up that story is like that was my first experience of realizing I I was different than what the story had told me, that it was possible. To have an experience where that story about myself and my life wasn't present. Yeah. That's so interesting. I've talked about the work with on my other on my other podcast. And I used to really not relate to it. And I'm like, I relate to that a lot more now. That's a weird trajectory. But I have, and I know we're at time. So like, but it's when I'm hearing you say that was the first time that you got to that, I'm thinking to myself, I my The way only way I actually figured out what you're talking about, how to separate myself from the story was through a positive. when I know when I was inflated, when I was like, I'm awesome because like almost like I lost weight and I feel amazing about myself and giving myself all this credit. That was the only time because I used to like try to take myself down. That was the time that I was like, there's a there's a story, there's a me underneath that 'cause I almost that inflation felt false. So it was easier for me to separate from that. Mm. I had to go in that way first for me to be able to backtrack it to like a negative. 'cause I wouldn't have been able to find myself without the story when I was so enmeshed with it. But I could it enmeshed in a the other direction if if that makes sense. Yeah. it does. So I mean and to each their own. But Interesting trajectory of conversation today. See, we just never know where it's going, but it always at least we find it interesting. I hope that you listening finds it if you made it this far with us. Yeah. Thanks for being here. I hope you found it interesting too. Well, we'll be back to do it all over again and see where where the next season takes us. In a in a few more months, we'll yeah after some life has passed again. And and I'm so curious to see what comes up for you and after this rest and yeah. Yeah. I will let you know. Good talking with you. You too. I will see you we'll all see you again. We'll see you all again. Thanks for listening to Unlearning Beautiful. If this episode resonated with you. Follow the show and share it with another woman who's ready to see beauty and herself in a new way. And if you feel moved, leave a rating and review. It will help this show reach more women who need to hear it. Remember, you're already everything you've been trying to become. Enough, worthy, and free. I'm Christina Bruce. Until next time.