Latest / Frontiers of Psychotherapist Development Podcast by Daryl Chow, Ph.D. / We Are Hungry for Depth. Frontiers Friday #209 ⭕️

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We Are Hungry for Depth. Frontiers Friday #209 ⭕️ · Frontiers of Psychotherapist Development Podcast by Daryl Chow, Ph.D.

• 0:01
  SPEAKER_01: In today's episode,
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: I'm going to be reading to you from my other sub stack called Full Circles,
• 0:08
  SPEAKER_01: and it is on the topic about depth in our conversations.
• 0:12
  SPEAKER_01: Next week,
• 0:13
  SPEAKER_01: I will be going further about this topic on the different levels of communication
• 0:19
  SPEAKER_01: or conversation,
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_01: specifically in therapy.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: We are hungry for depth.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_01: People are hungry for depth.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_01: We yearn not just for deeper conversations, but deeper connections.
• 0:39
  SPEAKER_01: Connections that make us come alive.
• 0:43
  SPEAKER_01: Yet we somehow do not go there very often.
• 0:47
  SPEAKER_01: Why is that?
• 0:49
  SPEAKER_01: Is it too difficult to have a good conversation?
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_01: Is depth always necessary for a deeper connection to take place?
• 0:59
  SPEAKER_01: In order to answer these questions, let's look at the different levels of conversation that take place.
• 1:06
  SPEAKER_01: 1.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: Informational
• 1:09
  SPEAKER_01: Much of our conversations take place at an informational level.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_01: Information can come in the forms of facts.
• 1:17
  SPEAKER_01: For example, Ciao Italia is on the corner of South Street and Millpoint Road.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_01: Personal opinion.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_01: I love the vegetarian pizza there.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Or personal experience.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_01: Do not park on the other side of the road because the ticket wardens are on a vengeance there.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_01: There's nothing wrong connecting with each other at an informational level.
• 1:43
  SPEAKER_01: These are the things we find easy to say to each other.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: At the informational level, we close the information gap.
• 1:52
  SPEAKER_01: 2.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_01: Emotional At the second level of communication,
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_01: we find ourselves moving beyond the logical and rational levels,
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_01: delving beneath the surface.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_01: At the informational level, head speaks to head.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_01: At the emotional level, heart speaks to heart.
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: Something is moving within each person and in the space between both parties.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_01: Something is also being moved as if the conversation is taking you somewhere you haven't expected.
• 2:28
  SPEAKER_01: Researchers in human emotions offer a fascinating insight.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: A review article by Janice Sickfield and colleagues suggested that being moved
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: should be treated as a distinct emotion.
• 2:43
  SPEAKER_01: Sensations of being moved include tears,
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_01: chills,
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: a lump in the throat,
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: goosebumps,
• 2:51
  SPEAKER_01: and warmth in the chest.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: When seen in this light,
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_01: it's easy to understand why the experience of being moved is often considered a
• 3:01
  SPEAKER_01: passive one,
• 3:03
  SPEAKER_01: i.e.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_01: not something we can actively control.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: Now let me do my Chinese teacher proud and point out that in Mandarin,
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: being moved,
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_01: 感动 literally translates as to feel movement.
• 3:20
  SPEAKER_01: In other words, you feel a visceral reaction in your body that is transporting you to another place.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: In conversation,
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_01: we can invite each other to move towards a deeper conversation,
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_01: as well as open ourselves to be moved by the other.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: But a quality of spaciousness is needed.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: You cannot rush into it.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_01: And you have to have a level of distress tolerance for the possibility of strong and complex feelings.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Writer,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: teacher,
• 3:56
  SPEAKER_01: and activist Parker Palmer provides a useful analogy to think about how we can
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_01: approach with a form of deep listening.
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_01: If we want to see a wild animal,
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_01: we know that the last thing we should do is go crashing through the woods,
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_01: yelling for it to come out.
• 4:15
  SPEAKER_01: But if we will walk quietly into the woods,
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: sit patiently at the base of a tree,
• 4:22
  SPEAKER_01: breathe with the earth and fade into our surroundings,
• 4:26
  SPEAKER_01: the wild creature we seek might put in an appearance.
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: We may see it only briefly and only out of the corner of an eye,
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_01: but the sight is a gift we will always treasure as an end in and of itself.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_01: Unfortunately, we go crashing through the woods together
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_01: scaring the soul away.
• 4:50
  SPEAKER_01: In spaces ranging from congregations to classrooms,
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_01: we preach and teach,
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_01: assert and argue,
• 4:56
  SPEAKER_01: claim and proclaim,
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_01: admonish and advise,
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: and generally behave in a way that drive everything original and wild into hiding.
• 5:06
  SPEAKER_01: Under these conditions, the intellect, emotions, will, and ego may emerge, but not the soul.
• 5:13
  SPEAKER_01: We scare off all the soulful things, like respectful relationships, goodwill, and hope.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_01: And if you wonder about how to have these conversations at an emotional level,
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: it takes the leap from one to open up.
• 5:31
  SPEAKER_01: What can you do?
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: Be vulnerable first.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_01: Social psychology experiments demonstrate that when you open up about yourself first,
• 5:42
  SPEAKER_01: the other party is more likely to warm up to you,
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_01: and they are more likely to reveal themselves to you.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_01: Trust can only come from relational risk-taking.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: At the emotional level of conversation, let the conversation move you.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_01: Do not try to be cognitive or factual.
• 6:04
  SPEAKER_01: You are now in the soul territory.
• 6:07
  SPEAKER_01: If you prematurely attempted to smack a dose of logic into the mix,
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_01: you'd be unpleasantly surprised by the negative reaction of the other person.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: 3.
• 6:21
  SPEAKER_01: Confessional Moving beyond the informational and emotional stages,
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: when the timing and place is right,
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: and when there's a level of trust with a specific individual,
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_01: We are drawn to reveal the unspokens.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: To confess is to open up what is hidden in plain sight.
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: To confess is to unshame.
• 6:45
  SPEAKER_01: Shame has its way of making us retreat deeper into the cave.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: But shame is an innocent emotion.
• 6:56
  SPEAKER_01: Think of a child who is ashamed.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_01: He instinctively curls up like a ball and wants to cover his face.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER_01: Further chastising would only make the child want to retreat further.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, a child who is experiencing shame i.e.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: feeling like they not only have done something wrong but feeling as if he is
• 7:21
  SPEAKER_01: something wrong just needs to be held.
• 7:26
  SPEAKER_01: Lessons to be learned can take place later.
• 7:30
  SPEAKER_01: At any given point in time, we live in two worlds, the inner and the outer life.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_01: To confess is to invite the other into one's inner life.
• 7:43
  SPEAKER_01: Will you judge me?
• 7:46
  SPEAKER_01: Will you think less of me?
• 7:48
  SPEAKER_01: Will you still love me?
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: When someone fesses up to something to you,
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: a shameful event,
• 7:55
  SPEAKER_01: a long-held secret,
• 7:58
  SPEAKER_01: know that you are no longer in the information or even emotional levels.
• 8:03
  SPEAKER_01: At the informational level, we say what we will say.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_01: At the emotional level, we say what we won't say.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_01: At the confessional level, we say what we can't say.
• 8:21
  SPEAKER_01: True connection doesn't arise from sharing our strengths alone.
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_01: We call that boasting.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: Perhaps this is why the attempts of tech companies to foster connection through
• 8:34
  SPEAKER_01: social media platforms fail dismally.
• 8:38
  SPEAKER_01: The loneliness epidemic continues while we amuse ourselves to death in the pits of the infinite scroll.
• 8:45
  SPEAKER_01: We only truly connect in our weaknesses, not strengths.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: At the confessional level, there is nothing to fix, to solve or to do.
• 8:58
  SPEAKER_01: Just receive wholeheartedly.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: 4.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: Experiential We are not looking for a new explanation.
• 9:12
  SPEAKER_01: We are looking for a new experience.
• 9:16
  SPEAKER_01: At the fourth level of communication, we are experiencing something new on the inside.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: It is quite possible to have new experiences on the outside and nothing changes on the inside.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_01: You can talk to the cows come home at an informational level and nothing's changed.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Experiential
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_01: Experiential experiences have a significant impact on this.
• 9:41
  SPEAKER_01: This can occur in a variety of settings.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_01: For example, watching a movie, listening to music, a nature trail walk.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Experiential experiences can also occur in conversation, and they are a mobilizing type of conversation.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_01: Think about how you feel when you are talking to someone who doesn't listen to a
• 10:05
  SPEAKER_01: word you are saying and is steamrolling on what a great holiday they have had in
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_01: the Bahamas.
• 10:12
  SPEAKER_01: You end up feeling small.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_01: The person is quite likely to continue the conversation even when you are replaced with a wall.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: Now think about how you feel when you are in conversation with someone who cares about you.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_01: you are likely to experience an entirely different quality, one that is life-expanding.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: You even like yourself better when you are in the presence of this caring individual.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: At the experiential level, you are moved more than you would be at an emotional level.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_01: You are experiencing you at a deeper level.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_01: At the experiential level of communication,
• 10:58
  SPEAKER_01: there is a chance that you are inspired to become a better version of yourself.
• 11:06
  SPEAKER_01: Activational
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_01: At the fifth level of communication, we feel an impulse to take action.
• 11:15
  SPEAKER_01: When I'm by myself, I feel less inclined to make music.
• 11:20
  SPEAKER_01: But after a late-night chat with some musician friends, I feel inspired to pick up an instrument.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_01: And with some other friends,
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_01: if I'm not careful,
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_01: I start to develop gas,
• 11:30
  SPEAKER_01: a term that musicians use to describe gear acquisition syndrome,
• 11:35
  SPEAKER_01: a lust to buy more music gear.
• 11:38
  SPEAKER_01: Beyond the experiential level, something in you is now activated.
• 11:44
  SPEAKER_01: You want to convert what you feel on the inside and do something about it on the outside.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: A word of caution.
• 11:53
  SPEAKER_01: When someone is talking to you at a confessional or emotional level and you are
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: responding in an activational level,
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_01: you'll find a mismatch.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: For example,
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: if your friend reaches out to you and wants to chat about her relationship struggle
• 12:08
  SPEAKER_01: and her conflicted feelings about this guy she has been with for a few years,
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_01: but you go into advice giving mode and say,
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_01: I think you should just leave that asshole.
• 12:19
  SPEAKER_01: Your friend is likely to look at you as if you don't get it.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_01: Or she might respond with, yeah, but statements.
• 12:30
  SPEAKER_01: Or if they are polite, they might say, hmm.
• 12:36
  SPEAKER_01: She needs to process her thoughts and not take action just yet.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_01: At the activational level,
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_01: we feel the rise in our body to hit the ground running and spring into action.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: Here, we close the execution gap.
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: Woundings We wound each other when we are not speaking at the same level.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_01: An adult child who continually attempts to connect to an emotionally stunted parent
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_01: beyond the informational level gets wounded further simply because the parent does
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: not know how to.
• 13:20
  SPEAKER_01: Any emotional content sends this parent into an autopilot flea mode.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_01: That parent never experienced closeness from their parents.
• 13:32
  SPEAKER_01: On the flip side, a parent who keeps trying to teach a child to do the right thing, i.e.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: at the activational level, but does not have any deep connection with the child, i.e.
• 13:45
  SPEAKER_01: from an emotional, confessional and experiential levels, will end up bewildered and frustrated.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: My child is so stubborn.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: She never listens.
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: With couples,
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_01: we end up attacking each other in the heat of arguments when we fail to be gentle
• 14:02
  SPEAKER_01: with each other's vulnerabilities.
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Our will says, won't says, and can't says.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: For example, your spouse keeps complaining that you work too much.
• 14:15
  SPEAKER_01: That's the will say.
• 14:17
  SPEAKER_01: And you get upset because you are diligently working your ass off for fear of
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: losing your job in the next round of redundancy.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_01: But actually, your spouse is missing your presence at home.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: That's her won't say.
• 14:34
  SPEAKER_01: And deeper under the hood,
• 14:36
  SPEAKER_01: she is actually feeling insecure about your absence and wondering if you no longer
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: find her attractive since the birth of the child.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_01: That's her can't say.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: The late Buddhist teacher Thich Nhat Hanh said in his book How to Love,
• 14:55
  SPEAKER_01: Understanding is love's other name.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: If you don't understand, you can't love.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_01: To love without knowing how to love, wounds the other person we love.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: We hurt each other when we fail to understand each other.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_01: And understanding requires not just communication, but spacious, deep conversations.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_01: More, not only do we need to seek to understand, but also help the other feel understood.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: That can be difficult to do,
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: especially with the ones we live with,
• 15:34
  SPEAKER_01: the ones we are close to,
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_01: and the ones we know for a long time.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: Seek to understand and help the other feel understood, and not trying to change them.
• 15:51
  SPEAKER_00: Reflect.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: 1.
• 15:55
  SPEAKER_01: How have we been wounded by the ones we love?
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: 2.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: A deeper reckoning.
• 16:03
  SPEAKER_01: How have we wounded the ones we love?
• 16:09
  SPEAKER_01: 3.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_01: Who is someone that you would like to have a deeper conversation with?