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Alexandra Shapiro on Writing a Legal Thriller · The Daily Writer

• 0:06
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to the Daily Rider Podcast, where we bring you tips and inspiration each day to help you build habits for writing success.
• 0:14
  SPEAKER_00: For more resources, including your free Daily Rider Starter Kit, visit DailyRiderLife.com.
• 0:22
  SPEAKER_00: If you've enjoyed books by authors such as Scott Turrow and John Grisham, I think you'll love today's interview.
• 0:28
  SPEAKER_00: My guest is Alexandra Shapiro.
• 0:31
  SPEAKER_00: She is a former federal prosecutor with nearly 30 years of experience and co-founder of Shapiro Arado Bach LLP, a prominent New York litigation boutique.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_00: She's argued in the Supreme Court, won numerous appeals resulting in the exoneration of previously convicted criminal defendants, served as president of the New York Council of Defense Lawyers, and handled many high-profile cases.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_00: Fun fact, Alexandra was also one of Justice Ruth Bader-Ginsberg's first clerks on the Supreme Court.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_00: Alexandra is also the author of the new legal thriller, Presumed Guilty, which is based on her real-life experiences on both sides of criminal cases.
• 1:10
  SPEAKER_00: The novel depicts how prosecutors, because of their motivations and mistakes, can at times destroy lives and promote unjust results.
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_00: In our conversation today, Alexandra walks us through her process of structuring and writing a legal thriller while also being a wife, mom, and staying active in her full-time job.
• 1:29
  SPEAKER_00: She also gives us insights into what she wanted to accomplish in a novel that she couldn't do through nonfiction.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_00: Now finally, I also had the chance to ask Alexandra all my burning questions about the legal profession.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_00: And as you'll hear, I had a bunch of questions, and she was really patient in answering those questions.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_00: So many props to Alexandra for her patience with me, who knows nothing about the legal profession, but I learned a ton in this interview, and it was really interesting and really fascinating.
• 1:55
  SPEAKER_00: I think once you hear this conversation, you are totally going to agree.
• 1:58
  SPEAKER_00: So here's my conversation with the amazing Alexandra Shapiro.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: Alexandra, welcome to the Daily Writer Podcast.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: It is a pleasure to have you here.
• 2:06
  SPEAKER_00: I've never had someone on with your background and expertise.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_00: So this is kind of a first for me.
• 2:11
  SPEAKER_00: So welcome.
• 2:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks so much for having me, Ken.
• 2:14
  SPEAKER_01: I'm really excited to be on the show.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I really love what you're doing, and I love the fact that you're a is it okay to refer to you as a high-level attorney?
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like, is that a proper way to frame that?
• 2:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sure.
• 2:27
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it's a compliment and I appreciate it.
• 2:29
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I've never had uh someone with quite your background and experience on the show before.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_00: So it's really fascinating to me, not only because of what you do, but because now you're you've kind of channeled this, your experience and the things you're interested in into a fiction book, which is kind of unusual for attorneys, isn't it?
• 2:48
  SPEAKER_01: Uh yeah, it's fairly unusual.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, there's definitely um some folks in this genre.
• 2:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh I can't really necessarily say I aspire to there that I'm able to achieve their level of uh success in terms of selling books, but you know, you have the John Grishams and Scott Turros and and some a few other sort of lawyers um who turn to um this particular genre that is uh legal thrillers.
• 3:14
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but there aren't too many lawyers who write fiction.
• 3:17
  SPEAKER_01: I I suspect that most lawyers who write books write nonfiction books.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 3:21
  SPEAKER_00: I I mean I I would assume that because of of the line of work that you have, you spend a lot of emotional and creative energy in your cases and in doing what you do.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_00: So probably there's not a lot of leftover time and energy left for creating fiction, I imagine.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Definitely.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: It was definitely a challenge to find the time.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_01: I think I was I was fortunate that I I did a lot of the writing of the first draft during a point in the pandemic when things were a little bit slower than they normally are in my work.
• 3:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um in I guess it was 20 20 2021.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um so but I did, you know, have to spend a lot of most of the time that I spent writing and working on the book was nights and weekends.
• 4:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um is a labor of love, but definitely in addition to a fairly busy schedule as a practicing attorney.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: And you have you also, and I already know the answer to this, but I'm gonna ask it so my listeners can kind of get a feel for what you do and who you are.
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're not you don't just have a solo practice, you also have attorneys who are working who are working under you since you have your own agency or agency is not the correct term, is it?
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it's law firm.
• 4:28
  SPEAKER_00: So law firm, okay.
• 4:29
  SPEAKER_00: I'm you can tell I'm like from the ghostwriter world because I'm thinking in terms of agency.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_00: You have your own law firm with with other people that you're working with and are responsible for.
• 4:37
  SPEAKER_00: So you you have uh quite a lot on your plate.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, um, I was fortunate.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_01: I was uh my career the my career has taken some different terms, but starting in 2009, I started my own law firm with a few other people.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um we currently have 11 lawyers working here, and so uh so in addition to practicing law and trying writing fiction and and uh talking to people about my book, I do uh have some administrative responsibilities for essentially running a small business, which I really enjoy.
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um I like working with other people, so it's it's a lot of fun.
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that's that's really fantastic.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_00: So let's dig into the book a little bit.
• 5:18
  SPEAKER_00: Give us a summary for those who haven't read your book of what the book is about and why you wrote it, if you can.
• 5:23
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, sure.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_01: So the book tells the story of a woman named Emma Simpson, who is the uh New York um the manager of the New York office of a very successful hedge fund.
• 5:35
  SPEAKER_01: Hedge funds are uh companies that invest in um stocks and other securities on behalf of investors, essentially.
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh she works in New York City, but lives um in upstate New York and has kind of a long commute in addition to her challenging job.
• 5:54
  SPEAKER_01: She's a mother, she has two teenage children um and a husband.
• 5:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and basically what happens is uh she goes to work one day and during the course of a busy day, uh she learns um, or sorry, uh there's uh it turns out that her another part of her hedge fund is under investigation.
• 6:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh she ends up uh writing an email, one of like hundreds she sends and receives during the day, uh reminding people at her company to uh follow something called a document retention policy, basically like clean out your files, um, and they're they're getting a new uh computer system.
• 6:37
  SPEAKER_01: So she just forwards another colleague's uh email reminding people to do this before the computer upgrade.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: And then she finds herself later in the crosshairs of federal prosecutors.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the reason is they've been unbeknownst to her, investigating her whole hedge fund, not just a different office for possible insider trading.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_01: And they can't prove the case, but they end up charging her with something called obstruction of justice, basically claiming that she wrote the email to try to get people to destroy documents and files that should have been produced to the government uh in response to this subpoena.
• 7:14
  SPEAKER_01: And so this the book takes you through the story of the investigation and as well as a trial that ensues and uh tries to show you her perspective, her family's perspective, as well as kind of uh the perspective of the the prosecutors involved and her defense lawyer.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, there's a lot going on there.
• 7:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um Yeah, and I guess I didn't answer the second half of your question, which is why I wrote the book, but um, so I I can say a little bit about that.
• 7:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um I originally was going to write a nonfiction book.
• 7:47
  SPEAKER_01: I had a case uh in which I represented someone, another white-collar case, but a much more complicated case involving a big foreign exchange transaction.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: And I um although I'm often uh fortunately uh successful in trying to get convictions overturned, I mostly do appeals.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, in this particular case, I felt that the client was completely innocent, but I we didn't succeed.
• 8:12
  SPEAKER_01: And I felt the case was very unfair.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_01: And I was originally going to write a story about that to kind of tell people about some of the things that can happen and some of the injustices of our criminal justice system, even for people who are well off and have resources to mount a good defense, um, and to try to show that, you know.
• 8:32
  SPEAKER_01: So I I but ultimately I decided that that story was a little too complicated and I really wanted to reach a much broader audience.
• 8:39
  SPEAKER_01: So uh I got the idea of writing a fictional story instead where I could um simplify things but still try to show people uh some realistic things about how their system works.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm so fascinated by so many aspects of this.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_00: So to kind of give give myself a point of reference and listeners, I'm sure I'm sure you get asked this a lot, and I apologize.
• 9:01
  SPEAKER_00: This is kind of a uh crazy question.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: But like for those who have seen shows like Billions on Showtime, I'm sure you've been asked this many times, or like you've people who've watched Better Call Saul on AMC, you know, those both of those shows feature attorneys kind of in really central roles.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_00: How much of those kinds of shows, like and I guess particularly billions, because that does take place in your area, you know, features a guy, Chuck Rhodes, who is like an attorney in the Southern District of New York.
• 9:28
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how much of that show is actually realistic on any level in terms of the kinds of cases that those people are involved in?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_00: And and I'm I'm assuming that you've seen the show, but if you haven't, I'm probably throwing you questions that don't make any difference.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_01: I'll I'll be honest with you, I actually haven't watched the show, but part of the reason is that I heard about it and I thought so reasonable.
• 9:47
  SPEAKER_01: You just want to beat your head against the wall that would drive me crazy.
• 9:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so um, so I think some of these shows, there are aspect, and that's probably true even of billions, but there are aspects of it that are um based on true things that go on, but but some of them also are incredibly exaggerated and over-dramatized, right?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: Um, to the point where they're not really realistic.
• 10:11
  SPEAKER_01: I will say, although I I never really got into better calls all, although my husband keeps loves it and keeps trying to get me, I loved Breaking Bad and Ozark.
• 10:21
  SPEAKER_01: I don't know if you're familiar with those.
• 10:22
  SPEAKER_01: And uh yeah, I think I think that that that these kinds of shows sometimes um what they're portraying has aspects that are true.
• 10:35
  SPEAKER_01: And particularly, I guess, the ones like Breaking Bad and Ozark are are even more you know about like organized crime and and and stuff like that.
• 10:44
  SPEAKER_01: So I think there's there's a fair amount of truth in terms of of the idea of that kind those kinds of crimes, but obviously I think to make the story as the stories as interesting and as compelling as they are, there's a lot of creative license within.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: Right, of course.
• 11:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you know, um, so I think it depends on the show.
• 11:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what I've found uh in the shows we're talking about, I think don't really have that many courtroom scenes, or I don't know about millions because like I said, I've actually not watched it.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but a lot of legal shows or movies that have courtroom scenes can often have um uh aspects that are not very realistic in terms of things, boring things like the rules of evidence and you know how real trials work.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: But um uh and so they're you know different degrees of how far they go in terms of uh you know, going to things that just would never happen in a courtroom to make it more interesting versus just simplifying in a way that um is still fairly realistic and and makes it a little more dramatic and compelling uh than you know, trudging through the way a real trial would work in terms of like details and you know, lawyers asking boring questions about foundation and and things like that.
• 12:04
  SPEAKER_01: So it it kind of varies, you know, and um so but it but I think I always think that um that my reaction to some of these shows is probably similar to the reaction like, for instance, doctors must have if they ever watch shows like Ways of Anime or whatever.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_01: Whereas I don't even think about whether those are realistic if I like the show, you know.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm sure if I was a doctor, I'd be like, this is ridiculous.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: This would never happen in an operating room or whatever.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things that that has that I found really interesting about shows that feature attorneys, and and I'm I'm curious how realistic this is, is there there's always there always seems to be these kind of scenes where they're they're presented with evidence or basically you have all these facts laid out in front of you, but then there's you can have a lot of options as to whether you're gonna prosecute or whether it's gonna go this direction or this direction.
• 12:55
  SPEAKER_00: How realistic is that aspect of the legal profession profession where you have, let's, you know, let's say something that that may, as an attorney, you may feel like it's a pretty cut and dried case one way or the other.
• 13:07
  SPEAKER_00: How realistic is that where you do have a range of options as to do you want to take it this direction or this direction and how hard you want to press it and and those kinds of things?
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is that realistic?
• 13:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I mean, there are like anything else, there are sort of different gradations.
• 13:24
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so you might have cases that are kind of a no-brainer as a prosecutor, for instance, like the evidence is clear, this person is guilty, and we can prove it, it's a slam dunk.
• 13:34
  SPEAKER_01: There are cases like that.
• 13:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and there are other cases where you know you investigate and like it's clear that either you've got the wrong the police had the wrong person or or whatever, or there isn't a crime.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_01: But I think particularly in the white collar area, there's often gray areas.
• 13:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but similarly, you know, with other kinds of crimes, I think as we learn more and more every day, um, sometimes the wrong people get arrested because eyewitness testimony, for instance, is is relatively unreliable.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_01: Psychologists have shown there have been study after study, things like that.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_01: So um so mistakes can be made.
• 14:13
  SPEAKER_01: But what I would say is there's a fair amount of with any, with many investigations, the ones kind of in the middle, um, there's a fair amount of prosecutorial discretion.
• 14:22
  SPEAKER_01: And, you know, we hope the way the system's supposed to work is that prosecutors will uh working with whatever law enforcement agency is helping them, whether it's the police or the FBI or some other federal law enforcement agency, that they're really going to investigate and gather as many facts as possible and then, you know, kind of go where the facts go.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: And if the facts show that that there's a crime that should be prosecuted, you know, they'll bring the case.
• 14:46
  SPEAKER_01: And if if it's you know, it's murky or there might be other reasons not to go forward because of the particular circumstances of this defendant, you know, maybe it's a case that is best for policy reasons really should be dealt with as like a civil fine and not, you know, a criminal case.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's the way you hope it works.
• 15:07
  SPEAKER_01: I think um some one of the things that I'm trying to do in the book is, you know, it doesn't always work the way it's supposed to.
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: And that's not necessarily to say that a lot of prosecutors are like deliberately just too aggressive, but more that I think, like all humans, they and law enforcement can sometimes be subject to like confirmation bias, where you get an idea in your head that a crime has been committed or this person committed the crime, and then you start viewing the facts in the light to support a pre-existing theory.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes that can happen.
• 15:40
  SPEAKER_01: Sometimes people have other motivations, like they want to make the big case, um, whatever the case may be.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: And and like in the book, um, this one of the reasons I chose this idea of the obstruction of justice charge here, is that it's very uh it's not uncommon when um prosecutors have trouble proving what people perceive as like the real crime, like they just can't build the evidence for one reason or another.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_01: They go out go for these process type of crimes, like somebody lied in an interview with with the law enforcement or you know, destroyed documents that were they were supposed to give to the government, whatever.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and that that does happen a lot, particularly in the federal system.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought it was a a useful kind of story uh mode, I guess.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, it this is so fascinating to to hear how this whole process works.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: So ultimately, I I I guess the the legal system is ultimately a human, a very, very human endeavor where people aren't perfect and and sometimes imperfect decisions happen, and there's psychology and emotions that come into the process, and that has to be, I would assume, really hard for an attorney to keep a level head sometimes, especially when you feel very emotional about a case, or people can get very worked up about things.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, because you're talking about people's destinies and then their their life.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_00: You know, do they go to prison?
• 17:03
  SPEAKER_00: Do they not go to prison?
• 17:04
  SPEAKER_00: Are they going to be prosecuted or not?
• 17:06
  SPEAKER_00: Or that that must be really hard to kind of keep a very level head about these kinds of things, I would imagine.
• 17:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh it can be, definitely.
• 17:14
  SPEAKER_01: And and especially when you're on the the defense side, you know, and I've been on both sides.
• 17:18
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, one of the things I like about being on the defense side is you feel like um, you know, you're really trying to help a real human being.
• 17:26
  SPEAKER_01: And they, but on the other hand, it can be very stressful and emotionally distressing because they're going through so much.
• 17:33
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, sometimes you you have to be a little bit of a therapist as well, not to say that we're trained, or you know, essentially.
• 17:41
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh so it can it can be very um very challenging in that regard.
• 17:47
  SPEAKER_01: On the other hand, you know, part of the reason you're doing this and why you've been hired is because you're going to go to court and you're going to try to present um, you know, a very uh very even-handed presentation, whether you're talking to a judge or a jury, you, you know, you obviously with a jury in particular, we want to show the jury that you really believe that an injustice is being done and that they blah, blah, blah.
• 18:10
  SPEAKER_01: But on the other hand, you don't want to be yelling and screaming and, you know, so um, but people have different styles and how they how they uh channel uh their emotions about a case, but um, but obviously I think the best lawyers are people, you know, who are able to try to objectively evaluate um the situation.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, often as a defense attorney, and you know, I don't do as much of this because I'm mostly off these days doing a lot of appeals of people who have been convicted with other lawyers uh representing them, but but you know, most defendants end up pleading guilty.
• 18:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so part of your job sometimes when you're representing someone is to try to evaluate the facts objectively and give them objective advice about their chances at trial and what's in their best interest.
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_01: And often it is in their best interest to plead guilty and try to get a good deal for sentencing or something like that.
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_01: So you really, on the one hand, you have to be sympathetic, but you also, I think the best lawyers are giving as objective advice as they can to their clients uh about the reality of the situation they face.
• 19:15
  SPEAKER_01: So those are all sort of things you have to balance.
• 19:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, are there times I assume, and I'll get to the book here in a second, I'm just honestly really, really fascinated by what you do and by, you know, again, we've all seen so many TV shows and stuff, and you don't really know what's reality and what's totally been exaggerated and and stuff.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_00: But are I assume there are times when you're basically you're either on the you're on one side or the other, but then the the attorneys on the other side are people who you know and are friends with and maybe you're close to.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: How do you keep a professional if you if you're basically arguing against someone, how do you keep that relegated to the professional realm, but still maintain a personal relationship?
• 19:55
  SPEAKER_00: Or is that just kind of part of what attorneys are able to do and that's just kind of part of the game?
• 20:01
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I think I think it's you know, people get used to it and um and you it can be it can be sort of helpful, right?
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_01: Because sometimes you're negotiating a lot of times you're negotiating with the person on the other side, and it's helpful to have that level of trust where they know you're you know, they can trust what you're saying and you feel the same way.
• 20:23
  SPEAKER_01: Now, sometimes that doesn't exist or you might not know them as well.
• 20:27
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, but I think it's usually not, um, at least in my experience, it's usually not a an impediment.
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, uh, I think if you're really close to the other person, you might try to avoid that situation, or maybe they recuse themselves and a different person gets involved.
• 20:47
  SPEAKER_01: But I think it's pretty rare because I think for the for the most part, we're talking about, you know, professional relationships.
• 20:53
  SPEAKER_01: Um and um yeah, it probably is also might be a slightly bigger issue in smaller towns than New York, you know, in the sense of it makes sense.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_01: Um uh where it's a more a little bit more insular.
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_01: Although I think in any in even in big cities like New York, the white-collar criminal bar is a is a fair a group, a fairly small group and people know each other and things like that.
• 21:21
  SPEAKER_01: But um, but yeah, I I think in general it's it's usually a good thing because it's it it helps um that you know who's on the other side and you know whether they're a credible person, or sometimes you might know them and think, I know I can't trust this person.
• 21:38
  SPEAKER_01: You know, that's sometimes too.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: Hopefully it doesn't happen too often, but it does sometimes happen.
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_01: And then you know you're on your guard and you have to be careful.
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_00: So that's really fascinating.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: Um, well, let's get to your book.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_00: I could ask you questions all day.
• 21:54
  SPEAKER_00: But I'm I'm not gonna pepper you, you know, for 15 hours with my all my silly questions.
• 21:59
  SPEAKER_00: Uh Um let's talk about the book.
• 22:02
  SPEAKER_00: Can you walk us through the process of how you actually wrote this book?
• 22:05
  SPEAKER_00: Now you mentioned nights and weekends, that kind of a thing, but give us kind of a breakdown of okay, you have got this idea for a book.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_00: How did you develop the story, name the characters, figure out the general flow of the story, and actually go through the process process of drafting it?
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_00: This is a writing podcast, of course.
• 22:20
  SPEAKER_00: So people are really, really interested in how do people go from idea to actually a completed first draft.
• 22:26
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, no, and and I'm sure it varies a lot from writer to writer.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 22:30
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so the way I did it was I had a very vague idea of what the plot was going to look like in terms of um, you know, there was gonna be an investigation and uh it was gonna be about one thing, and then the person was I had the idea that the person was gonna be innocent, and I wanted to show uh the reader of sort of from their perspective what happened on the day of the supposed crime, and then also show perspectives of people who weren't there and how they reconstructed their own idea of what had happened.
• 23:05
  SPEAKER_01: So that was one thing, but I think the way I really so I had some ideas like that in my head, and I knew I wanted to show a trial.
• 23:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and but I started really with after other than that basic idea, was creating some character sketches.
• 23:19
  SPEAKER_01: So I like had an idea, okay.
• 23:21
  SPEAKER_01: I want the main character to be a woman, and I chose that because there aren't very many women at who are really successful in the financial industry, and so I thought it would be kind of fun to have a counterfactual there.
• 23:34
  SPEAKER_01: Totally.
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_01: So, you know, I I created these sketches um and I changed the names sometimes, but I would start with an get an idea of a name, and sometimes the names were totally made up, and sometimes they were mishmash of like actual people I knew or just names I liked or whatever.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_01: But um uh so I would, you know, get an idea of my head, like how old is this person, you know, what's their background, um, what are they like, what are they not like, are they married, are they single, whatever, you know, like a bunch of different things about their personality.
• 24:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I and I created a bunch of sketches like that.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_01: And then and then I started writing, and um, and I started with the day of the crime, like I talked about, and uh, and I wanted to show sort of a day in that this was like a typical day in this woman's life.
• 24:21
  SPEAKER_01: And so we start with you know, her waking up at um, you know, 4 30 in the morning to get ready for her commute and so on.
• 24:28
  SPEAKER_01: And anyway, so uh I did start by writing that first uh the first scene.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I wrote it in scenes, not in chapters, and it other than starting at the beginning, I didn't really do it in order the whole time.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_01: So I would get ideas, and this is a little bit may sound a little scatter shot and not as kind of organized or outlined as maybe um how some people write fiction, or certainly how I might go about writing a legal brief, but it was more like I'd get an idea for a scene and I'd write that up.
• 25:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and uh they weren't necessarily in order at first.
• 25:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I worked with a development editor who gave me feedback and I would send her several scenes, and they might not necessarily be scenes in the same chapter, but um, and she would give me feedback along the way.
• 25:18
  SPEAKER_01: And then the second half of the book, which is about this trial, I did kind of write in order for the most part.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but um, I found the process of working with a development editor really helpful.
• 25:31
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I I because especially because I'd never written fiction before, and she would give me feedback about things that even though I've read a lot of fiction, I never really thought about as I was reading books.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so for instance, uh I think in my very early drafts, I had a tendency to um kind of explain things in a narrative, like I, you know, just explain them um and kind of spoon feed the reader.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_01: And she was always pushing back and saying, show, not tell, and you know, pushing me to instead like turn whatever it was I wanted to tell the reader about the character or about um, you know, the criminal justice system, you know, put it into dialogue so the reader can figure it out from the dialogue.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER_01: And and um that was like uh uh a great um just I know it's it probably sounds really dumb to experienced writers who know that, but like I hadn't really thought about that.
• 26:27
  SPEAKER_01: And I think the feedback from that editor as well as later editors after I'd done the first draft was like incredibly helpful in just tightening up the book and making it a more compelling story, hopefully.
• 26:40
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, that that makes a lot of sense.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: And I I just want to take a second to to congratulate you on you know, you you've had a lot of success in your in your career, in your legal career, but yet you still decided to do something that was new and different and and go into something, you know, writing a novel.
• 26:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's what I'm talking about, obviously.
• 27:01
  SPEAKER_00: You decided to do something that was new and you hired somebody to help you with it, and you're kind of adding this whole another thing onto it.
• 27:08
  SPEAKER_00: And I think that's really, really cool.
• 27:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I I know people have a lot of people have told you that, I'm sure.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: But I just think it's such a great example of hey, I've achieved a lot of success in this one thing in my life, and then I'm gonna try this other thing and see how it goes.
• 27:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm gonna take a risk and put myself out there and and learn to do this whole other thing.
• 27:26
  SPEAKER_00: And I just think that's that's fantastic.
• 27:28
  SPEAKER_00: It's really, really fantastic.
• 27:29
  SPEAKER_00: So congrats on putting a book out there.
• 27:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's a big deal.
• 27:34
  SPEAKER_00: It's a really big deal.
• 27:35
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks.
• 27:36
  SPEAKER_01: And and and I always say, you know, I I don't know if it's any good, but I I've gotten some positive feedback and and I feel like I learned a lot from doing it.
• 27:44
  SPEAKER_01: And um, one of the things that was most fun was um I really feel like I was using a different part of my brain than I use when I do other kinds of writing.
• 27:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and you know, another thing about the writing process, you know, I mentioned that I would write different scenes and kind of it kind of came together in a more holistic way or something.
• 28:03
  SPEAKER_01: But I also found that sometimes I'd start a scene and have a general idea, but like the actual process of writing would help give me ideas from new things that were going to happen or whatever.
• 28:16
  SPEAKER_01: And the scene might take a different direction than I had originally anticipated.
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought that was really, really fascinating.
• 28:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I really just enjoyed that a lot.
• 28:27
  SPEAKER_00: So is this something that you anticipate doing more of?
• 28:29
  SPEAKER_00: Like, do you maybe have some follow-up books in mind after this?
• 28:33
  SPEAKER_00: Or did this one kind of it takes so much out of you to even just do one book sometimes that it's like, man, I'm gonna take a break from this for a while.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, so I I kind of I think I feel both ways about that.
• 28:42
  SPEAKER_01: So I definitely do want to write at another book.
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I thought about some different options.
• 28:49
  SPEAKER_01: I haven't chosen one yet, but I've thought about a sequel.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_01: I've thought about like maybe a spin-off where I take one of the lesser characters in the book, one of the prosecutors in particular, I have in mind, and do a whole uh book where that person is the protagonist.
• 29:02
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and then I've just thought of like something totally different, like learning how to write science fiction, because I enjoy enjoy that.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_01: Um so, but uh, but I've been really busy with other things this year.
• 29:17
  SPEAKER_01: So I think I'm hoping that sometime next year I can start another book project.
• 29:21
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because I really enjoy this and it it's definitely something I want to keep pursuing if I can.
• 29:27
  SPEAKER_00: Wow, and I love it.
• 29:28
  SPEAKER_00: I really, really love it.
• 29:30
  SPEAKER_00: What are some things that that you felt like you took away from this experience of of writing your first novel?
• 29:34
  SPEAKER_00: Something that impacted you personally or professionally or maybe in some other way?
• 29:39
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I guess one of the things uh that I really enjoyed about it was um I, you know, I mentioned the development editor.
• 29:47
  SPEAKER_01: I did it as part of this program called the Book Creator Institute, where I met all these other uh authors.
• 29:54
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and some of them were writing their first book, like me, a few of them were writing a second book, but it was a really great community to be part of.
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_01: And I thought it was really interesting to see how you know it kind of takes a village to do a book.
• 30:09
  SPEAKER_01: Um and uh it was really it challenged me to kind of reach out both into uh to the other folks in the group, but also like um as part of helping to, you know, kind of market the book.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: I wasn't that into social media, but I created a social media, a couple of social media accounts.
• 30:29
  SPEAKER_01: And and even though that still isn't my favorite part of the process, I really do enjoy some aspects of it, particularly things like appearing on podcasts like this where I get to meet people like you and really talk about the book and and the whole book writing process.
• 30:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I think that's been great and it's given me a window to just a whole other kind of world out there that I is really cool, especially because I'm I love reading.
• 30:54
  SPEAKER_01: You know, I read all different kinds of books, both fiction and non-fiction.
• 30:58
  SPEAKER_01: And so it's it's kind of exciting and been interesting to just to meet so many different people who are in the vault, the world of publishing and book writing and things like that.
• 31:08
  SPEAKER_00: Um so wow, and I'm just I'm in awe really of what you've done here because so many people dream of writing a book, but life gets in the way and years or decades pass and it just kind of never comes to fruition.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: But you not only have a very busy life, you have a law firm.
• 31:26
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, and that's like a whole nother, in my mind, that's a whole nother level of responsibility.
• 31:30
  SPEAKER_00: You're not just working for somebody, you're like overseeing this whole staff of attorneys and other people.
• 31:35
  SPEAKER_00: So I just think it's really extraordinary that you took the time to do this.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: You've crafted this really compelling story that isn't just a story, it also is bringing to light these issues that people like me who are not in this world need to be aware of.
• 31:48
  SPEAKER_00: So you've really done something extraordinary.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: So I hope that you've taken some time to celebrate this really cool success.
• 31:54
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks so much.
• 31:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, really appreciate those kind words.
• 31:57
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 31:58
  SPEAKER_00: Well, Alexander, this has been a lot of fun.
• 32:00
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really glad that you got in touch.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't know about your book until um, you know, you shot me an email a few months ago, and I was like, man, this is really cool.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_00: I gotta I gotta have her on the show.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: So I'm super glad that you did, and congrats again for this amazing work of fiction and all the cool stuff that you're doing.
• 32:17
  SPEAKER_01: Well, thanks, thanks again, and I really enjoyed chatting with you.
• 32:20
  SPEAKER_01: And um, it's great to be on the show.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Fantastic.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks so much.
• 32:23
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks.
• 32:25
  SPEAKER_00: Wasn't that a fascinating conversation?
• 32:27
  SPEAKER_00: I learned a ton, and I'm so fascinated by people who have different jobs than I do.
• 32:32
  SPEAKER_00: And one of the many things that I learned from her is that you can get your book done, you can get your novel written or your nonfiction book or whatever your project is if you just take the time to actually do it and you spread it out over a period of time and you simply commit to getting the work done.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's pretty amazing that you have somebody here like Alexandra who has a very busy professional life, a very busy family life.
• 32:53
  SPEAKER_00: She lives in New York.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: So lots of things are going on in her life, yet she still found time to write this novel that she had been thinking about for a long time.
• 33:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you can do the exact same thing, whether it's writing on the weekends, getting up earlier, doing it in the mornings, late at night, your lunch break, during your commute if you write a subway or whatever it is that you need to do, you can get your book written.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: That's my main takeaway from this episode, in addition to all the great legal insights that Alexander has shared with us.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: So many thanks to Alexander for taking time out to be a guest on this episode, and I want to encourage you, if you're listening, check out her website, alexandrashapiro.com.
• 33:30
  SPEAKER_00: Lots of good stuff there.
• 33:31
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, before I wrap up, I want to let you know that today's episode is sponsored by Indie Author University, featuring the Book Marketing Mastery course.
• 33:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you're tired of being disappointed by your book sales and want to sell more books faster, easier, and with more fun than ever, make sure and sign up today.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: Book Marketing Mastery is created by my friend and business coach Honoree Corter, who has sold over 4 million books.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: So needless to say, she knows her stuff.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: This brand new course is fantastic.
• 34:02
  SPEAKER_00: I've taken it myself and I've started to apply what I'm learning.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: To sign up for Book Marketing Mastery, visit DailyWriterLife.comslash Bookmarketing Mastery and use the code daily writer, that's all one word, daily writer, to get 10% off.
• 34:18
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for listening, and I'll see you tomorrow.