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S3 E5 - Snow Days with Bob Lindmeier · Inside the OSD

• 0:00
  SPEAKER1: Today on Inside the OSD, we're talking about a topic that is very timely as we start seeing colder temperatures--snow days.
• 0:09
  This is a hot topic -- or should I say a cold topic?
• 0:12
  -- for all school districts in Wisconsin during winter months.
• 0:15
  Today we are talking with a local Oregon resident and Senior Chief Meteorologist at WKOW, Bob Lindmeier, and one of our own OSD
• 0:25
  parents to discuss common questions about snow days.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER2: Welcome to this episode of Inside the OSD podcast where it's all about the kids.
• 0:36
  Here is your host, lifelong educator, and our superintendent, Doctor Leslie Bergstrom.
• 0:45
  SPEAKER1: Good morning, Bob, and welcome to Inside the OSD.
• 0:48
  One thing we look at when considering a snow day is the weather forecast, and we're excited to talk to you to shed some light about forecasting when it comes
• 0:57
  to making these tricky calls.
• 1:00
  Could you start by telling our listeners a little bit about yourself and how you came to be a meteorologist?
• 1:07
  SPEAKER3: So yes, my name is Bob Lindmeier.
• 1:09
  I'm what you call the senior chief meteorologist at WKOW-TV in Madison.
• 1:14
  It's the ABC affiliate.
• 1:16
  Been doing this for a long time.
• 1:18
  I'm finishing up my 44th year with the station, so I've been pretty lucky to have my whole career in one location.
• 1:26
  Incredible. Yeah, and very fortunate for me.
• 1:29
  So I--how I got into the business?
• 1:33
  When I went to college, I didn't know what I wanted to do, really, but I took some 100 level courses and one of them happened to be a meteorology course.
• 1:42
  Okay. And from that, I really--it really spurred my interest.
• 1:46
  And I decided that's the direction I want to go with my career.
• 1:50
  Uh, but I grew up in Minnesota, and no college in Minnesota offered the degree.
• 1:54
  So I looked around and there was the University of Wisconsin and, uh, the reciprocity agreement between the two.
• 2:02
  SPEAKER1: That's a beautiful thing.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER3: It is, so kind of made it a no brainer to come here.
• 2:06
  So I came here and finished my last two years in the major at the University of Wisconsin and received a bachelor's of science degree in
• 2:15
  meteorology back in--way back in 1979.
• 2:19
  So once I had the degree, then it was, "what am I going to do with it?" You can go many directions as a meteorologist that actually a small percentage go into
• 2:28
  TV weather, but um.
• 2:31
  Huh. I-- was kind of happenstance.
• 2:33
  I was looking for a job, and there happened to be a job posting up in Wausau, and I had a young family at the time.
• 2:39
  It was like, "I need to find a job." So I went up there with no experience.
• 2:45
  I had not planned to do TV, but um, yeah, stayed there for about a half a year.
• 2:52
  Then I made my move down here to Madison and started January 1st of 1980, and my career has been through, uh, through
• 3:01
  there. Um, became the chief meteorologist in 1989, uh, which is the position I pretty much held ever since.
• 3:09
  SPEAKER1: Isn't it pretty unusual for someone who's doing TV meteorology to be in the same place that long?
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  SPEAKER3: It is, uh, most--incredible!
• 3:19
  Yeah. I was very fortunate because there was a side company called Weather Central, and Weather Central actually provided the TV meteorologist
• 3:29
  to WKOW TV.
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  It was a private forecast company that had served a lot of weather sensitive clients in many industries.
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  So I had my position in Weather Central.
• 3:40
  I was in their management and eventually in their ownership.
• 3:44
  Okay. And that allowed me to generate the income that you normally wouldn't in this market size.
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  So that allowed me to stay here.
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  And it worked out great.
• 3:55
  Um, and, uh, yeah, it's I feel very fortunate.
• 3:59
  It's been a fun career.
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  It's, you know, it's all about, I think, finding a job that you really enjoy that, that you like to go to every morning.
• 4:08
  And I was in that situation.
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  It's challenging but also a fun.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER1: So what makes it fun?
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  What do you like best about it?
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  And then what is the most challenging thing?
• 4:19
  Yeah.
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  SPEAKER3: You know, um, the the fun part for me is actually doing the, the TV presentation.
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  I just enjoy it.
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  When I first started, I was petrified.
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  Um, "boy, there's thousands of people watching me," and I'm.
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  And I didn't know what I was doing, really.
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  And you're kind of pointing
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  SPEAKER1: at a screen that you can't see, right?
• 4:41
  Oh, that is. That would scare me, too.
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  There's a green
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  SPEAKER3: wall out there, so you have to deal with that.
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  Nothing really behind you.
• 4:49
  You have to figure that out.
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  Yeah. One of the challenges was to figure out how to talk to people in a way that was understandable, because I was used to talking to other meteorologists.
• 5:00
  If I say, well, you know, "we got a positive vorticity advection coming in generating snow tomorrow." You know, people don't understand that.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER1: So they tune out.
• 5:09
  SPEAKER3: Exactly. So that was a challenge was to figure out how to talk to people in--in a way that they understand.
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  You want to do it understandably.
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  Um, you want to be entertaining to a certain degree.
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  Um, so there's--it was challenging in that way.
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  But over time, I gradually figured it out.
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  I tell people, "if I can do it, almost anybody can" because it was a rough -- It was rough for me when I started, but I figured it out with time and, uh,
• 5:38
  yeah. So I, I enjoy the, the TV part of things.
• 5:44
  Um, and actually giving that presentation on air, the, one of the challenging things is actually just the forecast.
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  Um, because it's not an easy thing to do.
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  We use different computer models.
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  Um, that help us.
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  We have five that we routinely look at every day and try to figure out which one's doing the best job because they have their strengths and weaknesses.
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  And so figuring that out is is a challenge as well.
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  But it's a challenge.
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  But it also, to me, fun.
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  Okay. I would say the one downside for my career has been the fact that I work evenings and I have to do.
• 6:25
  Yeah. Yeah. For many years, I was doing a 6 and 10 p.m.
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  newscast, which means with my--with my family, my young family, as they were growing up, I didn't see them as much as I hoped.
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  I did make the effort to come home every evening, um, when possible, to have have dinner.
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  In
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  SPEAKER1: between the shows?
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  Between
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  SPEAKER3: the 6 and 10:00.
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  So. But, um, so I had some time, but it wasn't, you know, I missed out on some of those evening activities.
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  Of course, you know that, uh, that you really want to beat.
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  So that was the one downside.
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  Aside from that, it's been a lot of positives.
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  SPEAKER1: It sounds like you loved it.
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  SPEAKER3: I did, I really enjoyed it.
• 7:05
  SPEAKER1: So last month, WKOW did a story that indicated we could be in for a La Nina winter.
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  SPEAKER3: Yes.
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  SPEAKER1: What is the significance of this and what might it mean for this year's winter weather?
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  SPEAKER3: Yeah, we have these fundamental things that happen in our weather that really have impacts.
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  And one is El Nino or La Nina.
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  Um, El Nino, which is Spanish for "the child." Um, because it usually was observed near Christmas down in South
• 7:39
  America.
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  SPEAKER1: But that's where it came from.
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  Yeah.
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  SPEAKER3: Yeah.
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  SPEAKER1: Interesting.
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  SPEAKER3: So but it was this development in the in the oceans.
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  The oceans really play a huge part in our weather.
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  And if there's something that unusual that happens in the oceans that affects worldwide weather patterns.
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  So El Nino, which is-- it's a warming of the equatorial Pacific Ocean water.
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  Okay. Okay.
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  It goes warmer than normal.
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  And when you get this burst of warmth in this huge area of the equatorial Pacific, that changes weather patterns fundamentally, not only
• 8:21
  here, but through much of the country.
• 8:23
  Okay. We had an El Nino last year, and you might recall, it was a warm winter.
• 8:29
  It was a it was a pretty dry winter.
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  And that's the thing that an El Nino does.
• 8:35
  It produces above normal temperatures and usually below normal precipitation.
• 8:39
  Okay. On the other side, there's La Nina.
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  And that's when the oceans go the other direction and go from warmer than normal to near normal, which is kind of where we're at right now.
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  Then below normal, those surface ocean waters go colder than average.
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  And that has its own kind of disruption, but in a different way.
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  And for us, it usually means that we're going to have an equal chance of above or below normal temperatures.
• 9:09
  There's really not a trend one way or another.
• 9:13
  SPEAKER1: So it's a coin toss, what it's going to do to us.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER3: Yeah. The the upper air wind patterns can go either way in terms of producing a warm or cold.
• 9:22
  Normally precipitation is above average, though, and in a lean-- La Nina winter.
• 9:29
  But overriding all that is still climate change and the impact that it's having.
• 9:33
  And it's having a significant impact, especially in our winters.
• 9:37
  So that's where we're really feeling the effects of climate change here in Wisconsin.
• 9:42
  Our winters are much warmer.
• 9:45
  Um, and that's really being observed.
• 9:48
  So that is also going to be playing into the winter.
• 9:52
  But so to answer the question, what kind of winter are we going to have?
• 9:57
  Well, Temperatures.
• 9:58
  We don't really see it very much.
• 10:01
  But again, this is we're talking about a three month time span -- or more sometimes depending.
• 10:08
  And you think about it okay.
• 10:11
  Say we have near normal temperatures through that three month time span.
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  But that could include sharp cold waves, warm waves.
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  It all averages out to near normal.
• 10:20
  Right. But you can still have significant weather events that happen.
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  We can have you might recall last winter it was an above normal winter.
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  But we had that extreme cold outbreak.
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  Yes, that lasted for a week.
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  But so that that stuff's going to happen, we're still going to have our winter storms.
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  Um, we'll likely have some school closures.
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  It's, you know, we have them pretty much every winter.
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  Uh, but how many?
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  And, um, you know that that's impossible to say at this point.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER1: Well, you are leading into the next question because as a school district, we know that calling a snow day is a really big decision.
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  It is. It really, um, disrupts family schedules, people's work schedules in a significant way, and it's really hard to predict
• 11:07
  this, as you said.
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  Even though we try to call it as far in advance as we can, the weather patterns make it difficult to do.
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  So we often have to make decisions in the very early hours of the morning.
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  So can you talk to our listeners a little bit about the process of predicting these weather patterns, and why it is so challenging to predict snowfall?
• 11:27
  SPEAKER3: Oh it is. Um, the way we forecast just forecast in general.
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  But as I touched on before, we use computer models, these model runs come out, um, fundamentally twice a day.
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  Uh, but other models are what we call rapid refresh.
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  They come out more frequently, but so it--we--when we have that forecast in the early morning trying to figure out, "well,
• 11:53
  what are the school districts going to do?" We want to get that latest computer model information in there to to help us out and issue.
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  But like the National Weather Service, which you depend upon.
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  And by the way, the National Weather Service is great.
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  I think they're experts and I really think highly of them.
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  Um, but and they're 24/7 there.
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  So they're looking at everything all day and all night.
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  Um, and, you know, getting prepared for, uh, when there's a potential winter storm, whether it's extreme cold or snowfall or ice, for that
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  matter. I think those are the three main ones, um, that, you know, they put a lot of time and effort and thought
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  into that, uh, into telling the school districts what they think is going to happen.
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  But it can be so challenging.
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  Snow, a lot of times it's on the edge of being mixed rain or snow.
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  Right. Uh, the timing, of course, is so important that that's a big decision for you.
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  You might have a ton of snowfall, but you know, most of it happens overnight.
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  That's not as impactful, obviously, as if it happens during the day.
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  So there's the timing.
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  There's the amount of snow when there's the intensity going to be the highest.
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  All challenging questions in their own right.
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  Yes. But um, you know, they do their best to make those forecasts.
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  But you know, are we right 100% of the time?
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  When I give that question to school children right away, they say, "no!" They don't have to think about it.
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  And they're right.
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  And so it's it's definitely a challenging thing for forecasters and for school districts.
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  SPEAKER1: Yes I agree.
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  Thank you. Now as you mentioned, another reason we close is cold temperatures.
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  And we know that the National Weather Service has made some changes to terminology.
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  Specifically, there's a difference between extreme cold warning which used to be wind chill warning and cold weather advisories, which used to be wind chill
• 14:01
  advisory. Yeah, we tend to close when there are extreme cold warnings.
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  Can you talk about the difference between the two?
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  SPEAKER3: Yeah, and I'm just getting acquainted to this as well.
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  This is going to be new for me.
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  SPEAKER1: Yeah. Yeah.
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  SPEAKER3: But I think it's--I can see why they made the change.
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  And I think it will make things a little more clear to people.
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  But yeah, for the extreme cold, there's first of all, a watch, by the way, an extreme cold watch.
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  They put out, uh, ahead of time.
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  It's kind of like a severe thunderstorm watch when conditions are favorable.
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  It's the same thing.
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  So conditions are favorable for temperatures to meet or extreme, or to meet or exceed the local extreme cold warning criteria in the next 12 to 48 hours.
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  So it's giving you that it could be as much as two days out.
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  Hey, it could be coming.
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  Issuing this extreme cold warning might be coming.
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  When an extreme cold warning is actually issued, that means there's a high potential for temperatures of five degrees Fahrenheit or lower, regardless of
• 15:00
  expected wind speeds.
• 15:02
  Um, sometimes it can be just really cold with hardly any wind, or you can have a lot of wind that really drives down that wind chill.
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  So in very rare cases, this warning may be issued if the hazardous weather conditions are expected to pose a significant threat to life due to the timing
• 15:20
  or other circumstances within--without reaching the criteria stated above.
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  So you don't have to be exactly in that criteria, but most of the time you will be.
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  Um, yeah, the cold weather advisory for 15°F or lower.
• 15:38
  Uh, but remaining above that warning criteria of five degrees Fahrenheit.
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  Okay. Again, regardless of, uh, expected wind speeds.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER1: Well, actually, calling a cold day is easier than a snow day.
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  That's. I mean, they tell us ahead of time we know what's going to happen.
• 15:55
  It's much easier to predict than snow patterns, right?
• 15:58
  Yeah. So, um, I don't enjoy those, but those are the ones we can call in advance.
• 16:04
  Right. So I think that helps families.
• 16:06
  Right? Yeah.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER3: But let's hope that the families understand it's really difficult to forecast a snow event, an ice event, and keep that in mind if it doesn't work out
• 16:17
  as expected, if there's a closure that happens and it's like, "why did you close?" Well, there-- you're basing on the best available information in the
• 16:25
  early morning. So, you know, just cut the school district some slack if it.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER1: Thank you for saying that.
• 16:34
  So finally, of course, we're an educational institution.
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  So we're helping our kids prepare for career options and plan for their future.
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  So what advice would you give to students who might be interested in meteorology?
• 16:45
  SPEAKER3: If you're interested in science in general?
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  And that's what I was when I was growing up.
• 16:49
  When I was in elementary school, going through high school, I loved science, um, and meteorology was kind of there, but not really on my radar.
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  So I would say, if you're interested in science, um, give meteorology a look.
• 17:05
  Usually there's coursework that you can take.
• 17:08
  Um, in elementary school, middle school, you're going to have your weather units.
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  And in high school you can take a class in it.
• 17:17
  Um, take advantage of that, I would say.
• 17:19
  I would say everybody should take a weather course, and especially if you're interested in science and see if it really triggers some things for you because
• 17:27
  there's a lot that, again, a lot of positive is a challenging profession.
• 17:31
  Every day is different.
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  Um, but um, it's, it's it's a fun profession.
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  And, and one I would encourage students to look at.
• 17:40
  SPEAKER1: Wonderful. Thank you for your time today.
• 17:42
  SPEAKER3: You're welcome.
• 17:44
  SPEAKER1: Now, we'd like to talk with one of our own OSD parents who has students in our district to discuss some common questions that we get from families about snow
• 17:54
  days. Welcome to Inside the OSD.
• 17:57
  Could you start by introducing yourself?
• 17:59
  Yes.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER4: Thank you for having me on today.
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  My name is Julia Bavery and I am a mom to four.
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  I have a child in high school, one at the middle school, a kiddo in 4K and one at home waiting patiently for his turn.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER1: Waiting patiently.
• 18:13
  All right. So to me, that means you're a wonderful person to talk to because you have multiple perspectives on the student experience.
• 18:21
  So after listening to the complexity of predicting weather and calling snow days, what questions come to mind for you as a parent or questions that you've
• 18:31
  heard from others about snow days and their impact on kids and families?
• 18:35
  SPEAKER4: Yeah, the first thing is the timing.
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  Of course, we all want it to be as soon as possible, but what is the latest that you would call it?
• 18:44
  SPEAKER1: That's a great question.
• 18:46
  Um, as you heard from Bob Lindmeier, it's really difficult to predict in advance.
• 18:52
  So while I would love to be able to call it the day before, That puts the margin of error at a place that I'm very often uncomfortable with.
• 19:01
  So what I do, and what many other superintendents in the area do, is we get on a National Weather Service call that's usually about
• 19:10
  3:45 in the morning.
• 19:12
  To get the latest update on whatever is happening, connect to our weather.
• 19:17
  And then we are consulting with one another and we all have to wait for input from either people who are driving the roads
• 19:26
  or transportation directors, people who are out there on the roads giving us some input.
• 19:34
  And all of that is happening between 4 and 5:30 in the morning.
• 19:39
  Really, I would say 6 a.m.
• 19:41
  is probably the latest we would call it, because we really do have a very short window of time and a lot of pieces are coming
• 19:51
  together. But I'm also thinking about our families and how difficult it is to find last minute care.
• 19:58
  So we try really hard to do all of the things I mentioned before 6 a.m..
• 20:03
  SPEAKER4: Perfect. What process do you go through to call a snow day?
• 20:08
  SPEAKER1: Well, I just described it a little bit.
• 20:10
  It really takes a lot of information gathering, consultation with the people who are currently on the roads.
• 20:19
  I'm also talking to our transportation director, Larry Mayo.
• 20:23
  So there are a lot of people giving input.
• 20:27
  And area superintendents are often on a text chain with one another giving input as to what they are doing.
• 20:36
  Um, people don't make calls based on what a neighboring district is doing, but their input, um, is always, you know, a part of gathering the information
• 20:45
  that's necessary to make a decision.
• 20:48
  So bus transportation really plays a big issue, a big part in this.
• 20:52
  You have to think about what it's like to drive a bus and safety related factors related to driving a bus on roads that are challenging.
• 21:01
  And you also have to make sure that all of your bus drivers can actually get to their bus, you know, and really difficult situations.
• 21:09
  That's a factor also.
• 21:12
  SPEAKER4: So you mentioned that you talked to other districts, and it seems like sometimes you guys make different calls.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER1: Absolutely. So we all are responsible for our own individual districts, and we have to make the calls that are best for our districts.
• 21:28
  But um, we do share information and we do talk to one another because we can inform one another's
• 21:38
  decisions. But road conditions in one area of Dane County may be very different from the road conditions in another area of Dane County.
• 21:46
  Consequently, we don't all move uniformly in making these decisions because things do vary.
• 21:54
  Um, some of the school districts that have a lot of rural roads have a much more difficult time, because it's less likely that the plows are getting to
• 22:04
  those roads before we need to pick kids up.
• 22:08
  So you know where you are in the county, the location of the storm, the types of roads that your busses or your families are traveling.
• 22:17
  All of those things are factors in why we simply don't always make the same decisions, even when we're in similar locations.
• 22:28
  SPEAKER4: Um, last year I recalled us having a two hour delay when others called a full day.
• 22:33
  What was the decision making strategy in this?
• 22:36
  SPEAKER1: Oh boy, that was something I was really eager to try because very often when you make an inclement weather call, the weather is poor.
• 22:46
  When kids would be getting on the bus or in the car to come to school.
• 22:50
  However, a couple of hours later, it can very often look much more positive.
• 22:56
  Much more safe.
• 22:57
  And in those situations, you know, you have to do it because you want to keep the kids safe in the morning.
• 23:03
  But boy, do you wish missing--you wish you didn't have to miss all of that instruction.
• 23:07
  So we planned ahead last year to get all of our ducks in a row related to having a late start.
• 23:16
  Not all school districts can do it.
• 23:18
  There's a lot of factors connected to it, but we felt that we could give it a try and actually it worked quite well.
• 23:25
  And I think it's a strategy we will employ in the future when the timing of a storm is such that we know that students and
• 23:35
  bus drivers and families who are driving the car, they all need a little bit more time for the roads to get better, but we are able to actually get them into
• 23:45
  school and get them into school safely if we just wait two hours.
• 23:48
  So I was super pleased with how it went.
• 23:51
  We will use it again and not all school districts are doing it, so you will see some more variation around the county.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER4: That sounds good.
• 24:00
  How do our snow days impact our school calendar?
• 24:03
  SPEAKER1: Well, we build in three days, so if we use those three days, then we know the last day of school will be whatever has been indicated on the calendar.
• 24:13
  If we don't use those days, school might end a little bit early.
• 24:17
  It's an unusual way to do it, but it does give us those three days of inclement weather cushion.
• 24:24
  And I think that's really, really helpful because when we run out of those days and we have more than three snow days, we have to think about
• 24:34
  meeting the DPI required number of instructional minutes.
• 24:37
  So we have to think, "do we add on a few minutes to every day?
• 24:42
  Do we move a professional development day into a full attendance day?
• 24:47
  Do we utilize the option of virtual instruction?" So we really try to think ahead and have the best plan, but it often
• 24:56
  depends on when it does depend on if we have used those three days.
• 25:01
  But if we have, when have we?
• 25:04
  Because that really helps us better understand what our options are for meeting the required number of instructional minutes.
• 25:12
  SPEAKER4: So you mentioned that the last day of school is tentative on our school calendar.
• 25:16
  When will you know the official last day of school?
• 25:18
  SPEAKER1: Well, you know what? We have a day in our head and it's sort of it's really around mid-April.
• 25:24
  And I know it's tempting, especially when you have a beautiful spring day to think, "oh, winter is over, just call the day." But if you remember, last year
• 25:33
  we had a snow day after spring break, so we really shouldn't, in all good conscience, call it before mid-April because there could be
• 25:43
  additional bad weather days.
• 25:44
  And so that's when we try to make that call.
• 25:47
  SPEAKER4: Perfect. One last question.
• 25:49
  If you don't call a snow day, but we aren't comfortable sending our child, what is the process for that?
• 25:55
  SPEAKER1: Thank you for bringing that up.
• 25:57
  I--if you hadn't, I hope I would have remembered that because that's a really big deal.
• 26:02
  If school is going on, but you don't think the roads are safe.
• 26:05
  You can call your child's school, say you're keeping them home, and the absence doesn't count as part of the number of days that a parent can excuse a child
• 26:15
  from school.
• 26:16
  SPEAKER4: Perfect. Thank you.
• 26:17
  SPEAKER1: You bet.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER5: Remember that you can find links to all episodes of Inside the OSD and submit topic ideas on our website at
• 26:26
  OregonSD.org/podcast. You can find this podcast anywhere you can find podcasts.
• 26:34
  Make sure to subscribe if you're listening on one of these apps to get notifications on the most recent episodes.
• 26:40
  We'll see you next time on Inside the OSD, where it's all about the kids.