Latest / Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast / 10 Years of The Force Awakening

Transcript

10 Years of The Force Awakening · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: The Force will be with you always.
0:02
Speaker 2: Welcome to the nerd Party.
0:06
Speaker 3: Hi, this is Nick and Ostas, you story editor on
0:09
Speaker 3: Star Wars, The Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch,
0:14
Speaker 3: and you are listening to an Aggressive negotiations.
0:23
Speaker 4: Hello and welcome. I am the podcaster between podcasts, living
0:27
Speaker 4: here in the world between worlds, as we join hosts
0:31
Speaker 4: between two different shows here on the Nerd Party Network.
0:34
Speaker 4: This of course is aggressive Negotiations, and we are honored
0:38
Speaker 4: to be joined by a special guest today for our
0:40
Speaker 4: special topic about the anniversary. Can you believe it's been
0:45
Speaker 4: ten years since Star Wars episode seven, The Force Awakens
0:49
Speaker 4: shattered worldwide box office records and gave a new breath
0:54
Speaker 4: of life into a franchise that was actually doing pretty
0:58
Speaker 4: okay up to that point, but they decided needed to
1:01
Speaker 4: do even better to make back their four billion dollar investment.
1:03
Speaker 4: I am John Mills, and I'm pleased as punch as
1:07
Speaker 4: always to be joined by Jedi Master Matthew Rushing, and
1:10
Speaker 4: we have a special visiting Jedi Master far from the
1:14
Speaker 4: outer reaches from whatever that planet was on the Force unleashed,
1:19
Speaker 4: where that that Jedi went nuts and made the Droids
1:23
Speaker 4: all evil and everything that plan out. That's what he's free.
1:26
Speaker 4: It's a great level to play, and we're pleased to
1:28
Speaker 4: welcome Jedi Master Darren Moser, Darren doctor sci Fi himself
1:32
Speaker 4: is joining us here on aggressive negotiations. Welcome.
1:36
Speaker 5: Oh, it's good to be back.
1:38
Speaker 1: I routed my hyperspace appropriately and only took three bypasses,
1:43
Speaker 1: so it's okay, m aw.
1:45
Speaker 4: You can't overdo it with the bypasses.
1:47
Speaker 2: Absolutely, Now we should have just liked speed skipped. It
1:49
Speaker 2: would have been so much faster.
1:51
Speaker 4: Don't jump ahead of us here, Matt. We're here to
1:53
Speaker 4: talk about the Force Awakens, not what happened afterward, although
1:56
Speaker 4: we will touch on that as a topic, and a
1:58
Speaker 4: topic that we of course won everybody to pay attention
2:01
Speaker 4: to is if you have the time, go ahead and
2:02
Speaker 4: give us a star rating review over on Apple Podcasts.
2:05
Speaker 4: We would love to hear from you, and of course
2:08
Speaker 4: you can reach out to us on the nerd party
2:09
Speaker 4: dot com slash contact. So to kick all of this off, obviously,
2:15
Speaker 4: we should all recount very quickly. You know, our memory
2:19
Speaker 4: of the release of the Force Awakens, the build up
2:21
Speaker 4: to it. I remember a friend of ours, fellow nerd
2:26
Speaker 4: Party and TFM compatriot Mike Schindler. I was actually recording
2:31
Speaker 4: with him the night that the tickets went on sale
2:33
Speaker 4: online and we actually stopped what we were doing and
2:35
Speaker 4: we ran like we were like, okay, we'll be back,
2:37
Speaker 4: and we like shut everything down. We went and we
2:38
Speaker 4: bought our tickets online and the entire world crashed, the
2:42
Speaker 4: internet and everything. Darren, what's your memory of the lead
2:46
Speaker 4: up to the buying the tickets all of that stuff.
2:48
Speaker 4: How ready were you for the Force Awakens?
2:51
Speaker 5: Oh?
2:52
Speaker 1: So for me, man, cause for me, like, I'm definitely
2:56
Speaker 1: a Star Wars fan, but for me growing up it
2:59
Speaker 1: was Trek so that was what my roots were. But
3:03
Speaker 1: right around before the Force Awakens, I got into Star
3:08
Speaker 1: Wars in a big way by having my own set
3:11
Speaker 1: of Stormtrooper armor. Yes, I know, you know, big nerd,
3:15
Speaker 1: but no surprise there. And I had just joined the
3:19
Speaker 1: Fible First Legion, which is a worldwide costuming group. So
3:23
Speaker 1: I was there when Celebration twenty fifteen in Anaheim just
3:28
Speaker 1: joined the legion. Star Wars is back. It's a fever pitch.
3:33
Speaker 1: We're months away and they're starting to show us trailers
3:36
Speaker 1: and crazy stuff and getting ready for that December, because hey,
3:41
Speaker 1: we're going to start Star Wars in December now, so
3:44
Speaker 1: that's a new thing. So yeah, it was right at
3:48
Speaker 1: the time that it was swinging back around into the
3:51
Speaker 1: collective consciousness. So I was very, very excited. I think,
3:56
Speaker 1: like many droid builders, the thing that really caught us
4:00
Speaker 1: as the stage presentation when BB eight rolled on stage,
4:05
Speaker 1: and we were like how because we know you can
4:09
Speaker 1: do things with special effects, but stage presentations are a
4:13
Speaker 1: little different, and that really got the gears turning.
4:17
Speaker 4: No pun intended. I'm sure I remember when BB eight
4:21
Speaker 4: rolled out on stage. I was watching. I actually took
4:23
Speaker 4: a break from work and I was like walking around.
4:27
Speaker 4: It was actually I think it was McPherson Square. I
4:30
Speaker 4: was working in DC at the time, and I remember
4:32
Speaker 4: seeing it. I'm holding my phone and I'm seeing the
4:35
Speaker 4: live cast and everything and BB eight came out and
4:37
Speaker 4: I was like, how the hell are they doing that?
4:39
Speaker 4: Like it it was really cool. But Matt, like, I
4:42
Speaker 4: know you were watching that celebration live stream and everything,
4:46
Speaker 4: But Jock my memory because I don't I don't really remember,
4:49
Speaker 4: like what the how much of the fever pitch you
4:52
Speaker 4: had at the time, Like, were you trepidacious or were
4:56
Speaker 4: you like fully gung ho. I don't remember what end
4:58
Speaker 4: of the scale you were on, So.
5:02
Speaker 2: I mean I was just looking back, and I think
5:05
Speaker 2: we did one, two, three, four, five six episodes of
5:13
Speaker 2: just the lead up to The Force Awakens in the
5:19
Speaker 2: sense of the books and the comics that we're releasing
5:22
Speaker 2: over on TFM, plus doing a review of all of
5:28
Speaker 2: the movies as well as diving into Timothy Zhon's series
5:35
Speaker 2: original Throng trilogy before we even got to The Force Awakens.
5:41
Speaker 2: So the fevered frenzy.
5:46
Speaker 4: Was there. Now.
5:48
Speaker 2: My personal feelings on it were I think very different
5:52
Speaker 2: in the sense of you know, John, both you and I.
5:57
Speaker 2: I mean, you're the oldest on the podcast right now,
6:00
Speaker 2: but we're not that far part in age, you know,
6:02
Speaker 2: We're just a couple of years, right, And so I
6:08
Speaker 2: grew up just a little bit, you know, is during
6:10
Speaker 2: the VHS era of Star Wars. But Star Wars was
6:13
Speaker 2: my thing, Like I loved Trek just like Darren, but
6:16
Speaker 2: Star Wars was really my first end to sci fi
6:19
Speaker 2: and it is such a love of mine. And I
6:23
Speaker 2: think like you too, I think we would both call
6:27
Speaker 2: ourselves Lucasian acolytes, right. You know, we're very attuned to
6:33
Speaker 2: the way in which Lucas told his stories, the reasons
6:38
Speaker 2: why he told his stories, the thought process behind that.
6:43
Speaker 2: And so with all of that, for me, there was
6:47
Speaker 2: excitement in the sense there was going to be more
6:49
Speaker 2: Star Wars and yeah, and and at that point, I
6:54
Speaker 2: think too even a thought process of like, maybe JJ
6:57
Speaker 2: is the right guy for this, and I'm hopeful, But
7:03
Speaker 2: the same time, there's this deep seated trepidation as this
7:08
Speaker 2: is happening, you know, And so I think, I don't
7:11
Speaker 2: know if that was your feeling too or.
7:14
Speaker 4: No, no, no, I was actually gonna relay because I
7:16
Speaker 4: had a memory as I was starting to think about
7:18
Speaker 4: the three of us sitting down, And I'd love to know, Darren,
7:21
Speaker 4: if there was also something that even gave you pause
7:24
Speaker 4: in the lead up where were like, oh, hold on,
7:26
Speaker 4: like cause there are always like little signals that come
7:28
Speaker 4: through where you're like, oh, I'm not sure how this
7:31
Speaker 4: is going to play. But man, I don't know if
7:33
Speaker 4: you remember. It was during one of those rewatches of
7:35
Speaker 4: the original six we were recording with Bruce Gibson, and
7:40
Speaker 4: he had the Force Awakens poster behind him that had
7:43
Speaker 4: been released before the movie, and Star Killer Base was
7:46
Speaker 4: on there and I had said something about I just
7:49
Speaker 4: hope it's not another Death Star, yes, and I remember
7:53
Speaker 4: it got really weirdly quiet for a second and I went, oh,
7:57
Speaker 4: really ah, And that was the one thing where I
8:01
Speaker 4: was like, Oh, I was hoping they weren't gonna do that.
8:05
Speaker 4: That'll you know, as we talk about the movie, we
8:06
Speaker 4: can go into that.
8:07
Speaker 5: But Darren, was.
8:08
Speaker 4: There anything at all that gave you pause where we
8:10
Speaker 4: were like, I'm not quite sure how this is gonna play.
8:12
Speaker 1: You know, it's hard to pull apart between what I
8:17
Speaker 1: was actually remembering and what we know now because there's
8:21
Speaker 1: so much twenty twenty looking back on the last decade
8:25
Speaker 1: of Star Wars so on, I'll say two ends of
8:28
Speaker 1: the spectrum. On the positive end, I remember like the
8:32
Speaker 1: photo they released of them all doing the table read,
8:35
Speaker 1: and we're picking apart like, oh, there's our two in
8:37
Speaker 1: the crate. Oh there's like who's sitting next to who?
8:40
Speaker 1: And we don't even know who these people are yet.
8:42
Speaker 1: It's just and we're like, oh, I recognize, you know,
8:45
Speaker 1: Anthony Daniels right there, but I don't know who that is.
8:48
Speaker 1: And so that I remember was the high the the
8:52
Speaker 1: other end of the spectrum is I remember, you know,
8:55
Speaker 1: because this is post two thousand and nine, so after
8:58
Speaker 1: JJ has done Star Trek O. Nine, and I remember
9:02
Speaker 1: in the publicity for that him emphatically talking about how
9:06
Speaker 1: he was not a Star Wars person, he was very
9:09
Speaker 1: much a Star Trek person.
9:11
Speaker 5: Or am I remembering that backwards?
9:13
Speaker 4: You're remembering it backwards. I remember that he wasn't really
9:15
Speaker 4: a Star Trek person, he was a Star Wars That's right,
9:17
Speaker 4: So I.
9:17
Speaker 1: Do, but I remember him talking about that. So it's
9:20
Speaker 1: actually not a counterpoint, a reinforcing point where yeah, he
9:25
Speaker 1: and I was like, okay, well if in a franchise,
9:27
Speaker 1: he said, he didn't really like he knocked it out
9:29
Speaker 1: of the park for what it was then giving him
9:33
Speaker 1: the keys to the kingdom, and as we know, like
9:36
Speaker 1: you really need to give the keys to one person
9:38
Speaker 1: for three whole films. But that's that's that twenty twenty
9:42
Speaker 1: rearing its head. So yeah, uh so really all that
9:46
Speaker 1: to say there, I didn't have a lot of trepidation.
9:50
Speaker 1: I think at least what was being presented to us.
9:53
Speaker 1: It was like here we go. And I will say
9:58
Speaker 1: I thought it was very smart how they came out
10:02
Speaker 1: right off the bat and said, Hey, we know we
10:05
Speaker 1: have the EU, the Expanded Universe. We are going to
10:08
Speaker 1: take that and we're gonna put it to the side,
10:11
Speaker 1: and we're gonna say that is Legends, and we're not
10:15
Speaker 1: going to keep ourselves in the box of we have
10:18
Speaker 1: to write within what's been written over the last decade
10:21
Speaker 1: and two decades, and we're gonna tell a fresh story.
10:24
Speaker 5: And I was like, that makes so much sense. Like
10:27
Speaker 5: I'm a fan of the EU.
10:29
Speaker 1: It's not as big of a thing for me as others,
10:31
Speaker 1: but I understood that creative decision of not being.
10:37
Speaker 5: Canon locked to it.
10:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, so I think that was the best decision they
10:43
Speaker 1: could make. It's a really interesting scenario. You're having to
10:47
Speaker 1: kick off a new set of films for a franchise
10:51
Speaker 1: that has also but also not been written about, and
10:55
Speaker 1: it's a really weird conundrum.
10:58
Speaker 4: I'm glad you said that, because I by that point
11:01
Speaker 4: had grown to hate the EU. I could not stand
11:05
Speaker 4: the Expanded Universe. I had tapped out years before. I
11:08
Speaker 4: would dabble every so often in prequel era stuff because
11:11
Speaker 4: I found that stuff still to be interesting. But post
11:14
Speaker 4: return of the Jedi stuff. I thought it just played
11:16
Speaker 4: itself out. I was just I was done with it.
11:18
Speaker 4: And when they said we're done with the EU, I
11:21
Speaker 4: was like, thank god, that's great. I'm thrilled that you're
11:24
Speaker 4: not tying yourself down with that. Matt, I think you
11:28
Speaker 4: had a slightly different reaction.
11:30
Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think the thing was is that
11:34
Speaker 2: by that point we had already had the Clone Wars right,
11:37
Speaker 2: which had it hadn't done away with the EU. But
11:43
Speaker 2: George himself was not above taking ideas from that and
11:48
Speaker 2: then molding it into what he wanted to do, right
11:51
Speaker 2: Because and this was the thing I always thought that
11:54
Speaker 2: they just didn't understand, right, is that there were levels
11:57
Speaker 2: of cannon in Star Wars, and all fans understood that
12:01
Speaker 2: that that the EU was EU level cannon. The only
12:05
Speaker 2: canon that really mattered was what was on screen. It's
12:08
Speaker 2: what came from George.
12:10
Speaker 4: Uh.
12:10
Speaker 2: And they could have just kept that and not have
12:12
Speaker 2: to worry about it. And and I think, you know,
12:15
Speaker 2: they really actually made a mistake with saying we need
12:18
Speaker 2: to create whole cloth, something new, instead of saying, well,
12:22
Speaker 2: why don't we take the time to have somebody go
12:26
Speaker 2: through read all this material, tell us what ideas could
12:29
Speaker 2: actually be good that we could actually maybe mine and
12:32
Speaker 2: then do what we want with it. You know that
12:36
Speaker 2: that might have actually been helpful for them to do.
12:39
Speaker 2: But I also didn't. I, like Darren, I didn't necessarily
12:42
Speaker 2: have a problem that they were going to set it
12:44
Speaker 2: aside and say we're going to do our own thing,
12:46
Speaker 2: because it's not like I ever expected them to just
12:48
Speaker 2: basically do the Throng trilogy.
12:50
Speaker 4: And yeah, and so the one thing where I think
12:53
Speaker 4: we're all three of us would probably agree is, you know,
12:57
Speaker 4: regardless of how you felt about their decision with the EU,
13:00
Speaker 4: I think we're all every I think everybody was adult
13:02
Speaker 4: enough to be like, yeah, of course you're not going
13:04
Speaker 4: to tie yourself down to some book that was written
13:06
Speaker 4: in like nineteen ninety five. Who cares if Lucas didn't,
13:09
Speaker 4: why would you. I think that they poked the bear
13:11
Speaker 4: a little bit to like say, oh, we're not going
13:14
Speaker 4: to be tied down to the Expanded Universe because to
13:17
Speaker 4: the norms, to the non diehards that they were trying
13:20
Speaker 4: to market to quote unquote, they didn't even know that
13:24
Speaker 4: it existed. They didn't they couldn't quote chapter in verse
13:27
Speaker 4: tales of the Bounty Hunters or the New Jedi Order
13:30
Speaker 4: stuff like. It made no difference to anybody anyway, So
13:33
Speaker 4: it was like making a production about it seemed a
13:37
Speaker 4: bridge too far, But in terms of a bridge too far,
13:40
Speaker 4: all of us were on board for taking that journey
13:44
Speaker 4: back to a galaxy far far away. Okay, let's see
13:46
Speaker 4: what's coming this new cast fresh blood. JJ Abrams by
13:51
Speaker 4: that point was you know, despite star trek into Darkness,
13:55
Speaker 4: everybody loved him, and you know everybody was willing to
13:59
Speaker 4: go on board with this and say, okay, Darren, take
14:03
Speaker 4: me back to that first that very first viewing. The
14:07
Speaker 4: Overture kicks back up, directed by JJ Abrams, music is going,
14:13
Speaker 4: and a decade ago, Young Doctor sci Fi goes, this
14:18
Speaker 4: is the blankest movie I've seen in a long time.
14:22
Speaker 4: What was that adjective?
14:23
Speaker 1: Well, it was midnight because in true fashion, we're watching
14:26
Speaker 1: it at a midnight release, because that's what you did,
14:29
Speaker 1: and you camped out and you saw it with as
14:31
Speaker 1: many of your friends as possible.
14:34
Speaker 5: Yeah, I would.
14:37
Speaker 1: Say, you know, that adjective is just overwhelming, because you
14:44
Speaker 1: know it's the like it's the first viewing, but you
14:47
Speaker 1: need more to digest it. Because every time a character
14:51
Speaker 1: comes on screen, the crowd goes wild, like every time
14:54
Speaker 1: a lightsaber ignites, the crowd goes wild. Like it's it's
14:59
Speaker 1: almost I'm not saying unwatchable, but it is a very
15:02
Speaker 1: different experience than like I'm gonna sit on the couch
15:05
Speaker 1: and I'm gonna pop in the DVD and just check out,
15:08
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, no, this is great. But I think, you know,
15:13
Speaker 1: there's something about a first viewing where you're just along
15:19
Speaker 1: for the ride, because all you can be you can't
15:22
Speaker 1: even be like, oh, well, when are they going to
15:24
Speaker 1: get back to such and such. You don't even know
15:25
Speaker 1: if they're going there. I thought Poe was dead because
15:28
Speaker 1: he you know, he doesn't get out of the tie,
15:32
Speaker 1: and then he just shows up. Later I'm like, oh,
15:34
Speaker 1: I guess he lived. Sure, there we go and later
15:37
Speaker 1: we learn why that is. But uh, yeah, I think
15:41
Speaker 1: if you go into it with just tell me a
15:45
Speaker 1: story a galaxy far far away, you know, a long
15:49
Speaker 1: time ago.
15:50
Speaker 5: And.
15:53
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, I think in watching it, there were
15:56
Speaker 1: still moments of like, oh another I mean they even
15:59
Speaker 1: point out it. They're like, this is the size of
16:01
Speaker 1: the Death Star and this is the size of Star
16:03
Speaker 1: Killer base. And you're like, oh, okay, yeah, you're just
16:06
Speaker 1: because you pointed out doesn't mean it's not a great idea.
16:10
Speaker 1: But besides that, I think I liked it, and the
16:16
Speaker 1: fact that, and I think many people have the same opinion,
16:21
Speaker 1: was for better or worse, it was a reign It
16:26
Speaker 1: was the force awakening. It was a reignition, and we
16:29
Speaker 1: were like, I can't wait till we see what's next,
16:32
Speaker 1: like it did its job of restarting, you know, Star Wars,
16:37
Speaker 1: or kicking it back into gear.
16:41
Speaker 4: I agree, I personally to this day. I still remember
16:47
Speaker 4: sitting there the first time. I was one of the
16:50
Speaker 4: people that I guess hallucinated where I was like, something
16:52
Speaker 4: looks wrong with that seven. It really did. Like I
16:57
Speaker 4: remember the way they did the lettering, but that first
17:00
Speaker 4: note of the score that was auto tuned and computer enhanced,
17:06
Speaker 4: I could tell. And I was there with the immortal Craigula,
17:13
Speaker 4: dear friend, because you know where I was living at
17:16
Speaker 4: the time. Of course, I was going to sit there
17:17
Speaker 4: and watch it with him, and he could see me
17:20
Speaker 4: squirm in my seat because the notes were wrong. Well,
17:24
Speaker 4: I mean, the notes were right, but the way they
17:25
Speaker 4: were playing was wrong. And my immediate reaction was why
17:28
Speaker 4: wouldn't you just reuse the archival recording? Like why even
17:31
Speaker 4: try to this doesn't make sense, guys, And going through
17:38
Speaker 4: and having to sort of like settle back down because
17:40
Speaker 4: there were a couple of things where I was like,
17:42
Speaker 4: I'm not really loving I didn't love the one liner
17:46
Speaker 4: nature of some stuff that like undercut some of the
17:49
Speaker 4: the you know, the the Kylo Ren freezing the bolt,
17:54
Speaker 4: was like, oh, that's so awe. Okay, it's one line.
17:58
Speaker 4: Oh okay, TV show vibe okay. And then I remember
18:02
Speaker 4: at the very end I hated the trash compactor line,
18:06
Speaker 4: like it got under my skin. And then at the
18:09
Speaker 4: very end, I remember sitting there and the music's going
18:12
Speaker 4: and Craigula looks at me and he goes, so, what
18:15
Speaker 4: do you think? And the first words out of my
18:18
Speaker 4: mouth were it's fan fiction. And it took a while
18:24
Speaker 4: for me to sort of chill out.
18:27
Speaker 5: It was.
18:27
Speaker 4: I always give credit to my wife because she didn't
18:30
Speaker 4: see it opening night with me because she's a responsible
18:33
Speaker 4: adult and she had to work in the morning and
18:35
Speaker 4: she wasn't going to do that. And when she saw
18:39
Speaker 4: it the first time she saw it was an imax,
18:42
Speaker 4: and she loved it, absolutely loved it. And I was
18:47
Speaker 4: being my nitpicky self in the car ride home and
18:50
Speaker 4: I'll never forget. We're turning onto one of the roads
18:52
Speaker 4: close to our house and she turns and she looks
18:54
Speaker 4: at me, and she says, can't you just watch a
18:56
Speaker 4: movie like a normal person. And that was the moment
18:59
Speaker 4: where I was like, okay, okay, and I went back
19:02
Speaker 4: and I tried and got to a point where I
19:08
Speaker 4: learned to accept it as part of the story and say,
19:10
Speaker 4: you know what, it's a different storyteller. Okay, I'm willing
19:14
Speaker 4: to say this is a beginning. There were things in
19:17
Speaker 4: the first six here and there that I could have tweaked.
19:20
Speaker 4: I'll live with this. That's fine. This is like you
19:22
Speaker 4: were saying, Darren, it's a beginning. All right, We're out
19:24
Speaker 4: of the starting gate. It's good enough to start again. Cool, Matt.
19:29
Speaker 4: Take us back to your first viewing.
19:35
Speaker 2: It's really interesting because my very first viewing, I remember
19:39
Speaker 2: my first thought after this was just that this was
19:44
Speaker 2: a movie, and this was my first feeling about it.
19:49
Speaker 2: This was a movie that was trying to do what
19:54
Speaker 2: the original film did, which is just drop you into
19:58
Speaker 2: a universe that you knew nothing about and tell a story,
20:06
Speaker 2: and yet that the problem with that was is that
20:09
Speaker 2: this universe had existed for thirty eight years at that
20:13
Speaker 2: point and had many, many, many stories that were told
20:18
Speaker 2: in it, and so you could not go back in
20:21
Speaker 2: time and try and tell a story in this universe
20:25
Speaker 2: as if you never told a story in it before.
20:28
Speaker 2: And that was really the biggest issue with this film,
20:31
Speaker 2: and every single issue of the film is actually one
20:36
Speaker 2: that comes from that. Really, is that we are you know,
20:42
Speaker 2: they always say that those who don't know history or
20:46
Speaker 2: doomed to repeat it. Well, that's exactly what happened with
20:51
Speaker 2: The Forest Awakens. We pretended like there basically wasn't Star
20:54
Speaker 2: Wars history, and then we just tried to repeat it,
20:57
Speaker 2: and we hit a lot of the same beat, but
21:01
Speaker 2: not as well as had already been done before and
21:05
Speaker 2: and and this was just and and like you, John,
21:08
Speaker 2: I think you know, one of the things that I
21:12
Speaker 2: spent a lot of time than then trying to do
21:16
Speaker 2: was trying to find my way into this film and
21:19
Speaker 2: trying to find a way to like it, because you know,
21:22
Speaker 2: Star Wars is such a part of me, and I
21:24
Speaker 2: wanted to love this. I wanted to like it. And
21:27
Speaker 2: yet as you know, my I think my first reaction
21:32
Speaker 2: in many ways tends to be something that is just
21:36
Speaker 2: I could never shake, Like I just can't, you know,
21:39
Speaker 2: get that off and the and so it was a
21:43
Speaker 2: really jarring original viewing. I just remember coming out of
21:48
Speaker 2: the theater, uh, and honestly just being so disheartened really
21:54
Speaker 2: that that was my first reaction to The Force Awakened.
21:58
Speaker 4: It's a really strong word though.
22:00
Speaker 2: Yeah I would I but I can. You know, you
22:03
Speaker 2: guys on House Lights, a lot of times you'll talk
22:06
Speaker 2: about your moments when you like remember being the like
22:09
Speaker 2: I don't have that for a lot of movies, but
22:13
Speaker 2: there are some that are so indelibly marked in my
22:16
Speaker 2: mind with like permanent marker that they they're never coming
22:20
Speaker 2: out right. It's like ultra sharpie and The Force Awakens
22:26
Speaker 2: has been ultra sharpied into my mind, uh, sitting in
22:31
Speaker 2: that theater, and it was a very disconcerting, discombobulating and
22:38
Speaker 2: disheartening feeling by the end of it, because it it
22:44
Speaker 2: just didn't sit right, It didn't feel right, you know,
22:48
Speaker 2: Like I because I remember that feeling of of like
22:52
Speaker 2: going into episodes one, two, and three, and in the
22:57
Speaker 2: first viewing was always like kind of like mind blowing,
23:01
Speaker 2: and you didn't necessarily know what to feel per se
23:05
Speaker 2: until you almost saw it again and then like, ah,
23:08
Speaker 2: I could relax, you know, And so I thought that
23:11
Speaker 2: that might help then with The Force Awakens. And I
23:14
Speaker 2: guess that's the rest of this conversation. Ten years later
23:17
Speaker 2: is where we are now?
23:20
Speaker 4: Yeah, And I think I think that's totally fair because
23:22
Speaker 4: I think that ten years later is a long time
23:26
Speaker 4: for me. This is my first time revisiting it quite
23:29
Speaker 4: a while. I think Matt, you and I did a
23:31
Speaker 4: thing for six oh two Club. When I think where
23:34
Speaker 4: it did we do like a rewatch of this somewhere
23:36
Speaker 4: along the way, I feel like we did. I we haven't,
23:40
Speaker 4: you know, we haven't.
23:41
Speaker 2: Think we've talked about this film specifically. Are either on
23:45
Speaker 2: aggressive negotiations or this or the six h two Club. Honestly,
23:50
Speaker 2: really since it.
23:51
Speaker 4: Came out interesting I for some reason, because the thing is,
23:55
Speaker 4: I'm trying to pin down the last time I made
23:58
Speaker 4: the effort to watch The Force away. So this is
24:00
Speaker 4: my first time in many years, Darren. Is The Force
24:03
Speaker 4: Awakens a movie that you've revisited regularly or is this
24:07
Speaker 4: your first time back to it in a few years,
24:09
Speaker 4: and then the follow up with this viewing how did
24:13
Speaker 4: it land this time?
24:15
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm the same. I think it's been a few
24:17
Speaker 1: years since I've watched it. I'm trying to recall. I
24:24
Speaker 1: can't even recall if we've shown it to my younglings yet.
24:28
Speaker 1: We might have, but I can't even remember. So, yeah,
24:34
Speaker 1: it's definitely not in active rotation. It's not like, oh yeah,
24:38
Speaker 1: it's gonna like I'm much more rather I'm gonna watch
24:41
Speaker 1: Rogue one or maybe like just a new Hope. But yeah,
24:46
Speaker 1: on this rewatch, just like that moment you called out
24:49
Speaker 1: John the you know that TV moment of do you
24:53
Speaker 1: talk First? I talked, and we were just like, oh, okay,
24:57
Speaker 1: that that's a take that they included in this movie. Yeah,
25:02
Speaker 1: it kind of just it was it had been long
25:06
Speaker 1: enough since I'd watched it that I was like, I know,
25:09
Speaker 1: I haven't forgotten this story, but I don't remember it
25:12
Speaker 1: enough that I can actually just enjoyed this watch of
25:15
Speaker 1: just oh yeah, oh, I forgot about that part. Oh
25:18
Speaker 1: I forgot, like it had faded enough from memory. Because
25:21
Speaker 1: there's a lot that goes on and a lot of
25:23
Speaker 1: characters and it's hard to remember, Oh when was that
25:26
Speaker 1: person introduced?
25:27
Speaker 5: Or oh when did they blow up that planet? And
25:29
Speaker 5: all of that.
25:31
Speaker 1: So I think it's hard to In contrast to when
25:38
Speaker 1: I talked about my first viewing of I'm very much
25:41
Speaker 1: a let it flow over me.
25:44
Speaker 5: Let's look at what I like.
25:45
Speaker 1: Like I don't nitpick usually out of the first gate,
25:50
Speaker 1: but on rewatching ten years later, I just I could
25:55
Speaker 1: not shake the sense of, you know, if this is
26:01
Speaker 1: the the tee up for the swing, like how much
26:05
Speaker 1: that didn't follow through? And I'm reading and I'm reading
26:09
Speaker 1: through you know, the articles in the interviews or they're
26:13
Speaker 1: talking about like oh yeah, like JJ said, like we
26:16
Speaker 1: really needed to roll it back into the previous movies
26:20
Speaker 1: to kind of re establish, And I'm like, hm, did
26:24
Speaker 1: you to like what Matt said of like you know,
26:27
Speaker 1: you're you're acting as if this isn't a vacuum. But
26:31
Speaker 1: but then all of that, I just keep looking at
26:34
Speaker 1: all these little things they're talking about, and I'm like,
26:37
Speaker 1: the thing I can't shake is why you didn't try
26:44
Speaker 1: to have a more permanent three movie plan from the
26:49
Speaker 1: get Like you knew you were making three, you knew
26:52
Speaker 1: that was the plan, and all I'm reading is, well,
26:55
Speaker 1: we're gonna make sure everyone has a little bit of
26:57
Speaker 1: their hands and everything.
26:58
Speaker 5: And I'm like, well, where does that get? You? Like it?
27:01
Speaker 4: But that's that's a TV thing. Yeah, right, that's a
27:06
Speaker 4: you have a writer's room and then person A takes
27:09
Speaker 4: this episode, person B takes that episode. Everybody writes a
27:12
Speaker 4: little bit, but the primary writer gets the credit sort
27:14
Speaker 4: of thing. That gets back to the TV. I'm glad
27:17
Speaker 4: you're calling that out because that definitely does get back
27:19
Speaker 4: to a TV production mentality, which I guess when you're
27:22
Speaker 4: planning to release a movie every year, you kind of
27:24
Speaker 4: have to go into that mode.
27:26
Speaker 5: Right.
27:27
Speaker 4: It kind of makes sense. It's had the Marvel model right.
27:30
Speaker 2: Well, And I think what both of you guys are
27:32
Speaker 2: saying is so clear when you're watching this film. It
27:36
Speaker 2: is made by a person who made TV, who doesn't
27:39
Speaker 2: have any idea necessarily how to tell a complete story
27:42
Speaker 2: from the beginning, because they just learn how to make
27:44
Speaker 2: it up as they go along. So really, all this
27:47
Speaker 2: film does is kind of ask questions that it literally
27:50
Speaker 2: has zero answers to, Like, not one question really is
27:55
Speaker 2: answered in this movie that is brought up. I mean,
27:57
Speaker 2: when you think about the way and what Star Wars
28:01
Speaker 2: films were told. They are stories in and of themselves.
28:05
Speaker 2: They tell a complete story every single film, even the
28:09
Speaker 2: prequel trilogy that feels more connected, still tells a complete
28:14
Speaker 2: story every movie. This is not a complete story, really,
28:19
Speaker 2: this is just a cliffhanger film because we're left with
28:22
Speaker 2: all the questions that basically we started the movie with
28:25
Speaker 2: with zero answers to, and I'm just hoping that the
28:29
Speaker 2: next part will answer it. Very much like a first
28:33
Speaker 2: pilot television series does. It just opens all the mystery
28:37
Speaker 2: boxes and says, hey, they're all here, but I got
28:39
Speaker 2: no answers for you. And that's the thing. It's like,
28:43
Speaker 2: this movie has some interesting ideas that no one seems
28:48
Speaker 2: to care about actually exploring and or answering any of
28:53
Speaker 2: the interesting ideas that's given to you. It just wants
28:56
Speaker 2: to present them to you. And in that I think
28:58
Speaker 2: the problem becomes is that this movie is about plot
29:04
Speaker 2: and not about characters. Everything just has to happen to happen.
29:10
Speaker 2: It doesn't really care about, like really investing you very
29:16
Speaker 2: much in the characters themselves. Now, there are certain places
29:21
Speaker 2: where I think some of the characters are served better
29:23
Speaker 2: than others. But I think for the most part, when
29:26
Speaker 2: you look at it, this movie is much more about
29:28
Speaker 2: getting from A to B to C than it is
29:31
Speaker 2: about like, I'm going to clue into a character and
29:35
Speaker 2: I'm going to follow that story.
29:36
Speaker 4: I mean, the.
29:37
Speaker 2: Original series, the original trilogy, your Keien is Luke, and.
29:43
Speaker 5: I'm gonna follow his story.
29:44
Speaker 2: You know, the prequel trilogy is you know, I've got
29:48
Speaker 2: obi Wan and I and then I get Anakin added
29:51
Speaker 2: to that, and I'm gonna follow those stories. And you know,
29:54
Speaker 2: we're gonna have characters get added to their stories, but
29:57
Speaker 2: it's really about how they are impacted by all of
30:00
Speaker 2: these other relationships. This movie, it's like, I don't really
30:04
Speaker 2: know whose story it's supposed to be. Is it Finns,
30:07
Speaker 2: Is it rays as it pos Is it Hans? Is
30:09
Speaker 2: it Leah?
30:10
Speaker 5: I mean Luke?
30:11
Speaker 2: I don't know whose story is this?
30:14
Speaker 4: Right, there's a you know what. It's sort of the
30:17
Speaker 4: thing that undid the next generation movies where it was like,
30:20
Speaker 4: well we got to be an ensemble cast because we're
30:22
Speaker 4: ensemble TV show. I want to throw this out to you, Darren,
30:28
Speaker 4: because I felt this since the first time I watched it,
30:31
Speaker 4: because it was all It threw me off kilter when
30:36
Speaker 4: she leaves the Resistance bellion base and everybody waves, we
30:42
Speaker 4: have our family shot at the end, the way Star
30:44
Speaker 4: Wars movies always end with the family shot, or even
30:47
Speaker 4: you know, even if it's the two shot, it's the
30:49
Speaker 4: quote unquote family shot, right, and then it keeps going
30:54
Speaker 4: and it's like, oh, oh, oh, we're not done. I
30:57
Speaker 4: maintain that this film would have been greatly served by
31:01
Speaker 4: instead of just having Luke wedged in at the end
31:04
Speaker 4: as sort of like the ultimate cliffhanger. If she leaves
31:09
Speaker 4: at the end, we have our group shot, everybody wishing
31:11
Speaker 4: her well, iris out directed by jj Abrams. Do you
31:15
Speaker 4: think this film is more satisfying and feels less like
31:20
Speaker 4: a TV pilot if you end simply with a departure
31:25
Speaker 4: from Hosnyan or not Haseiyan, whatever the name of it is. Yeah,
31:30
Speaker 4: it starts with an e I think whatever, and you know,
31:34
Speaker 4: and the family saying goodbye as she goes off. Do
31:38
Speaker 4: you think that's a better ending.
31:39
Speaker 5: For this I think so it.
31:42
Speaker 1: I mean, I could see why they would never do
31:44
Speaker 1: that because you have to have Luke in it. And
31:48
Speaker 1: that's another thing I read, you know, as they're writing it,
31:52
Speaker 1: they're like, oh, man, we tried to bring in Luke earlier,
31:54
Speaker 1: but every time we brought him in, he just took
31:55
Speaker 1: over the story and no one cared about our characters anymore.
31:58
Speaker 5: And I'm like, well, that kind of tells you something
32:00
Speaker 5: about your characters.
32:03
Speaker 1: But but what Matt, But I liked what Matt was saying,
32:09
Speaker 1: where you know, yeah, go back to and again we're
32:13
Speaker 1: all saying this in hindsight, and we can everyone can quarterback,
32:17
Speaker 1: you know, armchair quarterback a movie and plot. But when
32:21
Speaker 1: you're talking about, yeah, this is Star Wars, it's been
32:24
Speaker 1: around the galaxy, we know decades of its history, and
32:29
Speaker 1: they act as if nothing has happened, like we don't
32:32
Speaker 1: know anything that's happened between Jedi and this, like not
32:35
Speaker 1: even inferred. It's as if it's in a vacuum.
32:39
Speaker 3: Uh.
32:39
Speaker 1: I would I would have loved if you know, the
32:46
Speaker 1: first Order really is the Imperial Remnant returning like lean
32:51
Speaker 1: more into.
32:52
Speaker 5: That, like they should have beat up jeloppy.
32:58
Speaker 1: Star destroyers like they are hanging on by their fingernails
33:01
Speaker 1: in some sector of space. And then instead of their
33:06
Speaker 1: threat of we're going to blow up your planet, Dusk
33:09
Speaker 1: Star repeat do something different, like why, Like, yeah, they've
33:15
Speaker 1: been gathering over the last several decades. They've been working
33:19
Speaker 1: their way keep a little bit of politics in play,
33:22
Speaker 1: because hey, it's Star Wars, it's gonna have politics in play.
33:26
Speaker 5: But I don't know.
33:27
Speaker 1: Maybe they invent some technology that lets them collapse hyperspace lanes.
33:33
Speaker 1: And now they're slowly expanding their corner of the galaxy
33:37
Speaker 1: where like it's a new iron curtain. If you're on
33:40
Speaker 1: our side, you're on our side. If you're on the
33:42
Speaker 1: other side, you're on the other side, And that threat
33:45
Speaker 1: is slowly grown something rather than blowing up planets. But Lee,
33:49
Speaker 1: look at our history, look at other interesting things, and
33:52
Speaker 1: then tell that story. I'm just throwing this all out there.
33:55
Speaker 4: But yeah, I think I think those are all great thoughts.
33:58
Speaker 4: I think those are all great thoughts.
34:00
Speaker 2: What you're saying, Darren is is this, and I think
34:04
Speaker 2: this is probably the biggest issue then with the film,
34:09
Speaker 2: is that to be able to adequately come into episode
34:15
Speaker 2: seven as the filmmaker, I have to understand the history
34:21
Speaker 2: I'm in and what got us to this point.
34:24
Speaker 5: Right.
34:25
Speaker 2: That's the beauty of why the original Star Wars works
34:28
Speaker 2: Because George had a script that's so big, he pulls
34:32
Speaker 2: the middle out and it's like, this is the one
34:35
Speaker 2: thing I feel like I could tell and that if
34:37
Speaker 2: I never get anything more, it can be its own
34:39
Speaker 2: thing completely from end to you know, from start to finish.
34:45
Speaker 2: But he knows all of the history in his mind,
34:48
Speaker 2: he's able to help you feel comfortable in this world.
34:52
Speaker 2: And that's the real big issue with not paying attention
34:56
Speaker 2: to the history is that because the writers of this
35:00
Speaker 2: film don't even understand their own history to get from
35:04
Speaker 2: the thirty years of Return of the Jedi to when
35:07
Speaker 2: we're in the Force Awakens, they don't actually have adequate
35:11
Speaker 2: answers to any of those questions. And so when you
35:14
Speaker 2: are at a viewer in this universe, you feel as
35:19
Speaker 2: lost as the writers are themselves. And because I don't
35:25
Speaker 2: feel like there's any good answers to those questions, as
35:29
Speaker 2: a huge fan, obviously I feel lost. But then as
35:33
Speaker 2: a viewer it's like, well, I can enjoy the beats
35:37
Speaker 2: and shouting, as Jala would say in you know, Star
35:42
Speaker 2: Trek Beyond, but all I've got is running and sweating
35:46
Speaker 2: and shouting, and that's just not enough to hold our
35:50
Speaker 2: attention for the long run and that becomes I think
35:55
Speaker 2: one of the major hurdles that this film can't overcome because,
35:58
Speaker 2: as you said, Darren, you know this is a trilogy,
36:02
Speaker 2: So why in the world would you not start with
36:06
Speaker 2: a finished storyline product that all three of your directors
36:12
Speaker 2: sign on too, so that you could tell a cohesive story.
36:19
Speaker 2: And you know, look, it's not like even George himself
36:23
Speaker 2: didn't change things here and there between, you know, when
36:25
Speaker 2: he gets to Return of the Jedi or yeah. So
36:29
Speaker 2: it's like, but you have at least a foundation to
36:33
Speaker 2: build off of.
36:34
Speaker 4: But see, the thing is regardless of changes or anything
36:37
Speaker 4: like that, because people love to throw that at you,
36:39
Speaker 4: you know, with Lucas making changes the story as he
36:42
Speaker 4: goes along and everything like that. What you're missing is
36:46
Speaker 4: even if you go back to Empire and Jedi, their
36:49
Speaker 4: beloved you know, entries in the original trilogy, you still
36:55
Speaker 4: felt Lucas's hand on top of it. What you needed
36:58
Speaker 4: was you needed an executive producer who was writing shotgun
37:02
Speaker 4: approving things, who had a clear idea where you could
37:06
Speaker 4: talk that producer into changing their mind. But you had
37:11
Speaker 4: to have a really strong argument for it to happen,
37:14
Speaker 4: to come to them and say no, no, no, I
37:16
Speaker 4: really think this is better, and that producer can look
37:18
Speaker 4: at it and say, Okay, it still works. That's great.
37:23
Speaker 4: But in terms of the breathlessness and the running and
37:26
Speaker 4: everything like that, this is definitely shot different than any
37:30
Speaker 4: other Star Wars movie. The visual language changes here. Dan Mendel,
37:34
Speaker 4: who's a terrific director of photography, one of just he's
37:40
Speaker 4: just a magnificent DP. He comes in, He's worked with
37:44
Speaker 4: Abrams many many times. This looks different than your typical
37:48
Speaker 4: Star Wars movie. Darren, did that take you out of it?
37:52
Speaker 4: Or was it refreshing? Like, look at it just through
37:54
Speaker 4: the lens of this right here. Do you still look
37:57
Speaker 4: at this and you say, you know, forget costumes and everything,
38:01
Speaker 4: the lighting, the camera placement, that sort of stuff, It
38:05
Speaker 4: still feels like a Star Wars movie is being told
38:08
Speaker 4: to me.
38:10
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'd say for the most part, they you know,
38:14
Speaker 1: it doesn't really dabble into CGI cam where the camera
38:19
Speaker 1: can be anywhere and moves, you know, Like, I think
38:21
Speaker 1: that's one of the biggest things in our minds. When
38:26
Speaker 1: we're looking at something that was shot in miniature versus
38:29
Speaker 1: something that was shot with cgcam, we can tell the
38:33
Speaker 1: difference where like that the way that moved is physically impossible,
38:37
Speaker 1: like within physics, you can't move a camera that fast.
38:41
Speaker 1: You can't go around a corner that fast.
38:43
Speaker 5: You can't.
38:44
Speaker 1: And so but for this one, yeah, I'd say it
38:47
Speaker 1: it stayed fairly grounded, uh, you know, in its shot placement,
38:51
Speaker 1: in its feeling. But I was never expecting it to
38:58
Speaker 1: be one hundred percent, you know, a seventies film with
39:03
Speaker 1: the lenses and the and the pacing and all that,
39:06
Speaker 1: because that's just not cinema now it's decades later. But
39:13
Speaker 1: I think the main thing, like what you said, is
39:16
Speaker 1: having a congruency amongst the story and the visual look.
39:23
Speaker 1: I think it's why, you know, the Mando verse has
39:25
Speaker 1: succeeded so well, because that's the felony Favareau duo where
39:31
Speaker 1: they are that morning star of you have to be
39:36
Speaker 1: within our wheelhouse or where it's not going to get
39:38
Speaker 1: into the show, and we have a cohesive idea that
39:43
Speaker 1: we want to tell. We have a story we want
39:45
Speaker 1: to tell and we're going to tell it. And that's
39:48
Speaker 1: the thing with The Force Awakens where I never got
39:52
Speaker 1: the feeling that, oh man, this is a story that
39:55
Speaker 1: Abrams really wanted to tell like, Abram's just a director.
39:59
Speaker 1: He's a good direct but that's not Star Wars has
40:04
Speaker 1: been one of those unique properties that even when George
40:09
Speaker 1: wasn't directing, there's still a George at the helm. And
40:14
Speaker 1: and think of any I mean a Star Trek or
40:20
Speaker 1: James Bond or any running franchise Harry Potter. You know,
40:24
Speaker 1: you see some do it better and some do it worse.
40:28
Speaker 1: With that congruency of feeling the same. I mean, no
40:33
Speaker 1: one would watch the first Harry Potter and the last
40:35
Speaker 1: Harry Potter and be like, oh boy, like where'd all
40:38
Speaker 1: the color go? You know, it's very, very different, but
40:42
Speaker 1: it also matched the pacing and the and the story
40:46
Speaker 1: of the overarching story. So yeah, it but to all
40:51
Speaker 1: to your main question though, yeah, it visually.
40:57
Speaker 5: In a way, it.
40:57
Speaker 1: Couldn't not look like Star Wars because they doubled down
41:01
Speaker 1: on the visual icons of Star Wars. Look there's a Stormtrooper.
41:07
Speaker 1: Look there's a desert planet. Look there's an X Wing.
41:10
Speaker 1: Like it can't not be like you were saying, fan fiction,
41:14
Speaker 1: it can't not be Star Wars because look, it has
41:16
Speaker 1: all the pieces of Star Wars and I'm not saying
41:18
Speaker 1: that's a great way to go about it, but it
41:21
Speaker 1: is an option.
41:24
Speaker 2: Well, I think too, Darren. Earlier you mentioned the whole
41:30
Speaker 2: thought process story wise of the fact that we couldn't
41:37
Speaker 2: we couldn't have Luke Skywalker in the film because he
41:42
Speaker 2: took it over and in that what happened is that
41:47
Speaker 2: you're making a movie based off of fear instead of
41:53
Speaker 2: like joy of the story that you're telling. And that
41:56
Speaker 2: is not a way to create a movie for for
42:00
Speaker 2: the public to enjoy. You know, your storytelling should be
42:04
Speaker 2: one based off of your joy of the story that's
42:09
Speaker 2: coming out of you that you just can't wait to
42:11
Speaker 2: put on celluloid, you know, or on digital at the
42:16
Speaker 2: end case you know, this was also on celluloid. But
42:22
Speaker 2: and I think that's the thing, is that so much
42:25
Speaker 2: of this movie as you're watching it, I mean, I
42:28
Speaker 2: even remember feeling like this in the original It's like,
42:35
Speaker 2: we don't actually quite know what to do with these
42:38
Speaker 2: original characters because we're so scared that they're going to
42:42
Speaker 2: take you away from the character trying to introduce to you,
42:46
Speaker 2: instead of utilizing them as a way to introduce those
42:50
Speaker 2: characters to you. And I think if you do it right,
42:56
Speaker 2: there is always a way to pass the baton, right,
43:02
Speaker 2: even just recently, Rewatching Star Trek generations is a better
43:09
Speaker 2: way to pass the baton from the original series in
43:13
Speaker 2: film to the next generation crew. I think of you know,
43:21
Speaker 2: the way in which Star Trek O nine JJ and
43:26
Speaker 2: the writers there and this is the thing, right or
43:31
Speaker 2: see really understands Star Trek, yes, and in a way
43:37
Speaker 2: to which he can he can utilize that the technobabble
43:41
Speaker 2: craziness of the Star Trek universe and the way we
43:45
Speaker 2: understand the Star Trek universe to pass the baton from
43:49
Speaker 2: from one generation to the next, from one universe to
43:53
Speaker 2: the next. I think that's the thing that we run
43:57
Speaker 2: into with the sequel trilogy is that there isn't that
44:06
Speaker 2: person there who truly in the writer's room understands the
44:12
Speaker 2: Star Wars saga in a way that would allow them
44:16
Speaker 2: to be able to pass the baton from one generation
44:20
Speaker 2: to the next in the storytelling as well as character wise.
44:26
Speaker 2: And that's well, I mean, that's what any franchise needs
44:32
Speaker 2: at some point, right, you have to be able to
44:34
Speaker 2: pass the baton from generation to generation.
44:37
Speaker 4: The ultimate solution, though, would have been to embrace the
44:42
Speaker 4: idea that Once you have those characters on there, you
44:44
Speaker 4: have to find a way to pass that baton. And
44:47
Speaker 4: instead of having it be I have no idea who
44:49
Speaker 4: Finn is, I have no idea who Poe is. I
44:52
Speaker 4: have no idea who Rey is. And then I'm throwing
44:55
Speaker 4: Han Solo in there, and it's like, hey, look it's
44:57
Speaker 4: Han Solo and everybody's like, yeay, Han Solo is here.
45:00
Speaker 4: And then immediately it's like, and now here's Princess Leah
45:03
Speaker 4: and it's like, oh, Princess Leah's here too, right. Instead
45:06
Speaker 4: of layering it on that way and then you know,
45:09
Speaker 4: crescendo with Luke at the very end, have one of
45:13
Speaker 4: those characters, probably Lea, be the person who sends off
45:17
Speaker 4: the new character to go look for Luke. Instead of
45:21
Speaker 4: having it be happenstance, have Lea give it to Finn
45:26
Speaker 4: or Ray or whomever it changes their character are sure,
45:30
Speaker 4: and have that person introduced and actually have them on
45:34
Speaker 4: screen passing the baton and saying and saying basically the audience,
45:40
Speaker 4: look this person here. I'm officially saying to you, this
45:45
Speaker 4: is the person you're going to follow, and you respect me,
45:49
Speaker 4: and maybe I come back later in the story, but
45:51
Speaker 4: in the meantime, I've told you right here, I lea
45:55
Speaker 4: Organa want you to look at Ray and as she
45:59
Speaker 4: goes off to look for this other person. You know,
46:02
Speaker 4: I think that's a much more engaging way to do it.
46:05
Speaker 4: But what do I know, you know, like Darren, like
46:07
Speaker 4: you've said, that's twenty twenty hindsight, that's rewriting the movie.
46:11
Speaker 4: It's not this movie. So you know, I can't undo
46:16
Speaker 4: decisions that were done right, you know, more than a
46:19
Speaker 4: decade ago.
46:20
Speaker 5: No, I think those are good points.
46:22
Speaker 1: I think we all kind of are on the same
46:24
Speaker 1: boat of if you had front loaded the story with
46:27
Speaker 1: the main that the returning characters, and then pass it
46:30
Speaker 1: versus hiding them in the end, sometimes literally the last shot.
46:36
Speaker 1: I mean yeah, and I don't know. Again, you could
46:40
Speaker 1: have Han solo in the opening shot flying an X
46:44
Speaker 1: wing and trying to trying to find Luke. Oh, Han
46:47
Speaker 1: is trying to find Luke. I'm very interested in that.
46:50
Speaker 1: And then you have Finn introduced. Finn was a really
46:55
Speaker 1: If I had to say one thing about the entire
46:57
Speaker 1: sequel trilogy, it was the sadness not getting a fit
47:02
Speaker 1: of what Finn could have been. He was such a
47:05
Speaker 1: perfectly set up character, a stormtrooper conscripted by birth that
47:10
Speaker 1: breaks his programming, and like I'm like, oh my gosh,
47:13
Speaker 1: I want to know that story and he can use
47:15
Speaker 1: the lightsaber and all this cool stuff, and then we.
47:18
Speaker 5: It just it it didn't pan out that way.
47:21
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, yeah, that that to quote mas Kanada,
47:25
Speaker 4: that's a story for another time. Well, thank you.
47:29
Speaker 2: This is our tie, right, because that literally is the
47:34
Speaker 2: matra of this movie, right, And that's not a joke.
47:38
Speaker 2: It's just oh, that's a great question for another time.
47:43
Speaker 2: But the problem is is that the writers themselves don't
47:46
Speaker 2: know what that other time will be. But they also
47:51
Speaker 2: don't even know what the answer to their question is.
47:55
Speaker 2: And so like, well, I think I like with just
48:00
Speaker 2: just as an example, this movie as as your as
48:04
Speaker 2: I rewatched it and I'm watching it with my wife,
48:07
Speaker 2: it is so clear that Ray is a descendant of
48:14
Speaker 2: Obi Wan Kenobi. Like that that is who she is, right,
48:20
Speaker 2: just from every every piece of information that we get
48:23
Speaker 2: in this film, that's what they're telling us. And it's like, Okay,
48:27
Speaker 2: that's really interesting and really fascinating, but we never go
48:31
Speaker 2: anywhere with it.
48:32
Speaker 4: But but I think I think more to the point
48:35
Speaker 4: regardless of whether you can see that or not. I
48:38
Speaker 4: never picked up that vibe. I think it's very interesting.
48:41
Speaker 4: I see what you're saying with that it works, It
48:45
Speaker 4: would have worked very well, Like it would have explained
48:47
Speaker 4: you know, you hear Obi Wan say, ray, you've taken
48:51
Speaker 4: your first steps, It's like, oh, why was Obi Wan
48:55
Speaker 4: so prominently featured in that?
48:57
Speaker 5: Yeah?
48:57
Speaker 4: But I think that the more core part of the
49:03
Speaker 4: question is or not the question. But the problem with
49:07
Speaker 4: the questions is that for a question in a film
49:12
Speaker 4: to be interesting to the audience, you have to present
49:15
Speaker 4: them with something that makes them ask the question. Like
49:19
Speaker 4: you walk in and you're like, hey, look at this thing.
49:21
Speaker 4: Do you know what that is?
49:23
Speaker 5: Well?
49:23
Speaker 4: No, what I didn't. I didn't even know what that was.
49:27
Speaker 4: A second, well what do I care? Right? Whereas if
49:30
Speaker 4: you go back to the original trilogy, or even if
49:33
Speaker 4: you're including the prequels as well, well, wait a minute,
49:35
Speaker 4: how the hell is that working?
49:36
Speaker 5: Right?
49:37
Speaker 4: Like it leads you on a path where like you're
49:39
Speaker 4: asking the question like well wait a minute, wait, wait, wait, wait,
49:42
Speaker 4: I know this, how is that tying it? Wait? I know, Yoda?
49:45
Speaker 4: Who the hell is QUI gon? You know like that,
49:47
Speaker 4: that sort of thing that plays into it. So I
49:51
Speaker 4: think that's the bigger problem with the questions is they're
49:54
Speaker 4: not questions that organically came up from the audience's experience.
49:58
Speaker 4: There are questions that are forced upon us by somebody
50:02
Speaker 4: that is telling us that these are the questions we
50:04
Speaker 4: want answers to, and so we just sort of like
50:07
Speaker 4: we're almost like hostages to their story where they're saying,
50:12
Speaker 4: you care about this, right, It's like, yeah, sure, I
50:14
Speaker 4: guess I paid a ticket price, Sure I care that
50:17
Speaker 4: sort of thing.
50:18
Speaker 2: And that's the I think that's a great way to
50:20
Speaker 2: put it, John, because we're predisposed, even if you don't
50:28
Speaker 2: really know Star Wars, you know lukhn and Lea and Chewy,
50:32
Speaker 2: right like that, that's just in the cultural zeitgeist, like
50:36
Speaker 2: it's just a part of the ether, and so we
50:39
Speaker 2: are predisposed to have that be our questions of like
50:42
Speaker 2: what happened to these characters? And so again, the fact
50:46
Speaker 2: that we're afraid to talk about or really utilize those
50:50
Speaker 2: characters in a way to then create are in for
50:54
Speaker 2: the rest of what's happening is just it is an
50:58
Speaker 2: incredibly strange thing to be afraid of the saga that
51:02
Speaker 2: you're playing in.
51:05
Speaker 4: It is an incredibly strange thing. I agree with you,
51:08
Speaker 4: and I think we've done a really good job of
51:11
Speaker 4: sort of like coming at it from all of these
51:13
Speaker 4: different facets that we have. You know, we've talked about
51:16
Speaker 4: the music, the cinematography, you know, the sensibilities, the issues
51:20
Speaker 4: with the storytelling. I'm interested, Darren. This is your first
51:25
Speaker 4: viewing in several years. You're now talking about Force Awakens.
51:32
Speaker 4: You've seen Force Awakens. Where are you putting Force Awakens
51:36
Speaker 4: on that you know, much vaunted five star scale that
51:39
Speaker 4: has no room for half stars?
51:41
Speaker 3: From you?
51:41
Speaker 4: Oh man, there's absolutely no room for half stars, quarterstars,
51:44
Speaker 4: eight stars, nothing. It's whole stars are nothing. What are
51:49
Speaker 4: you coming out with here?
51:51
Speaker 5: I Am going to give it.
51:53
Speaker 1: I'm going to give it a snap decision, because those
51:55
Speaker 1: are the best decisions. I'm gonna say for what it
52:02
Speaker 1: went from a four to a three, and I'm gonna
52:05
Speaker 1: say because a four was on the promise and what
52:10
Speaker 1: it could have been, and trying to look at it
52:13
Speaker 1: on its own, but too many you know, new mystery
52:19
Speaker 1: boxes and no answers and I'm not even saying I'm
52:22
Speaker 1: not diging it for though those answers didn't happen down
52:25
Speaker 1: the line, those answers didn't even happen in the same movie,
52:28
Speaker 1: like if you only have one movie to tell, you know,
52:31
Speaker 1: looking back on ending it on a cliffhanger, like the
52:35
Speaker 1: fact that this movie cannot stand as its own story,
52:41
Speaker 1: and honestly just in the bigger picture, kind of squandering
52:46
Speaker 1: the time we had left with some of our main characters,
52:50
Speaker 1: and just not not using it to pass the torch.
52:56
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't want to get into my thoughts
52:58
Speaker 1: on generations because I feel we passed the torch in
53:02
Speaker 1: account our farpoint and we didn't really need a movie
53:05
Speaker 1: to repass the torch. But I will say cinematically it
53:10
Speaker 1: did it.
53:11
Speaker 5: I think.
53:14
Speaker 1: I understand the wanting to tell a story that everyone
53:18
Speaker 1: can be accessible to, because while I will say, the
53:24
Speaker 1: one thing that The Force Awakens did is it even
53:29
Speaker 1: more so made Star Wars a pop cultural phenomenon, meaning
53:36
Speaker 1: not that Star Wars wasn't big, but it was still
53:39
Speaker 1: like in a NERD corner like to a point like
53:43
Speaker 1: it made lots of money, but that was obviously not
53:46
Speaker 1: Disney's goal. Disney's goal is we need this to open
53:49
Speaker 1: the box.
53:50
Speaker 5: It needs to. We want to.
53:53
Speaker 1: We want to make a film that anyone can watch,
53:55
Speaker 1: so we're not going to. I mean, we've all said, oh,
53:59
Speaker 1: you need to know the first six movies to tell
54:02
Speaker 1: this story, but they don't want to tell that story
54:05
Speaker 1: because then you have to have seen the first six movies,
54:07
Speaker 1: and you're now even slightly limiting your audience. So I'm
54:12
Speaker 1: gonna give it three bb eight beat beat.
54:16
Speaker 4: Boops, three beat beat boops. I like that. I like
54:21
Speaker 4: that very much. Now, Matt the coin toss here? Do
54:26
Speaker 4: I go first? Do you speak first? I'm gonna go ahead.
54:29
Speaker 4: I'll go, and I'll let you have the floor for
54:31
Speaker 4: the last set of final thoughts. Darren am right there
54:34
Speaker 4: with you, three stars. My ultimate thought rewatching the Force
54:38
Speaker 4: Awakens right here is this is a movie that ultimately
54:42
Speaker 4: does not benefit from multiple viewings. This is something where
54:49
Speaker 4: one of two things happens when you revisit a movie.
54:51
Speaker 4: Either your estimation of it is going to go up
54:55
Speaker 4: or it's going to go down. Yeah, okay, it might
54:57
Speaker 4: stabilize like, oh, The Godfather Part two is one of
54:59
Speaker 4: the greatest of all time. It's not exactly like I
55:01
Speaker 4: have anywhere to go with that one. You know, higher
55:03
Speaker 4: up on the scale or anything like that. But you
55:07
Speaker 4: know there's even a Stockholm syndrome effect, you know, like
55:11
Speaker 4: myself with Star Trek five. Eventually you watch it and
55:13
Speaker 4: rewatch it so many times for the wrong reasons that
55:16
Speaker 4: eventually you're like, well, I don't know, I kind of
55:17
Speaker 4: like it, and you know, you have all of these
55:20
Speaker 4: things that can weigh in force. Wakens really does not
55:24
Speaker 4: benefit from multiple viewings because instead of finding other little
55:31
Speaker 4: Easter eggs that I enjoy, I find things that annoy
55:35
Speaker 4: me even more. The the fixation on fan service moments
55:41
Speaker 4: like oh, look he turned on the holographic chess table.
55:45
Speaker 4: We're gonna give it. Remember it's a holographic chess table,
55:48
Speaker 4: and we're gonna come back. Hey, look here's a third
55:50
Speaker 4: shot of the holographic chess table. It's like, that's maybe
55:54
Speaker 4: you have it turn on and turn off really fast.
55:56
Speaker 4: That's a cute easter egg. But then you also have
55:58
Speaker 4: all he picks up and look there's the train remote
56:00
Speaker 4: that Luke fought. Oh and look there's the blast helmet.
56:03
Speaker 4: Oh and look there's this and looks It's like ah,
56:07
Speaker 4: and it's really especially when you come back to this,
56:11
Speaker 4: you realize you can tell that Star Killer bases grafted
56:15
Speaker 4: on to the whole thing because JJ Abrams wanted a
56:18
Speaker 4: death Star in a trench run like. You can take
56:21
Speaker 4: those elements out and the movie is no different, absolutely
56:26
Speaker 4: no different, And if anything, it makes even less sense
56:29
Speaker 4: that the New Order, sorry that's a band. The First
56:35
Speaker 4: Order is quote unquote resurgent in the Last Jedi? Wait
56:39
Speaker 4: what they they lost? How could they be resurgent? You
56:44
Speaker 4: know they've taken over the galaxy in the Last Jedi.
56:46
Speaker 4: How is that even possible? So this is a three,
56:48
Speaker 4: and I stay at a three. I would hesitate to
56:53
Speaker 4: watch it again for a while at the very least.
56:56
Speaker 4: Matt your final thoughts.
57:02
Speaker 2: Oh man, this is rough and tough, because I think
57:12
Speaker 2: that this film is exactly what you said, John, It's
57:19
Speaker 2: one that actually suffers from rewatching it. And the reason
57:25
Speaker 2: is is because every single issue with the film becomes
57:29
Speaker 2: more and more pronounced the more you watch it. And
57:35
Speaker 2: the thing that really became pronounced to me here is
57:39
Speaker 2: that their lack of understanding about anything that they're trying
57:46
Speaker 2: to do with these characters. And it's not just because
57:50
Speaker 2: I know what's going to happen. It's because all of
57:52
Speaker 2: these feelings were the exact same feelings I had walking
57:55
Speaker 2: out of my first viewing. I went back and actually
58:00
Speaker 2: read review of this film that I had written on
58:05
Speaker 2: my blog back in the day, and when I described
58:09
Speaker 2: the history of the period of thirty years, I mentioned
58:17
Speaker 2: that all of that had to come from research outside
58:23
Speaker 2: of the film.
58:26
Speaker 4: If I have to do.
58:27
Speaker 2: That in a movie, then the movie doesn't make sense.
58:32
Speaker 2: And this movie just doesn't make sense internally with itself.
58:37
Speaker 2: It doesn't really have good reasons for a lot of
58:40
Speaker 2: the things that are happening, and therefore it ends up
58:43
Speaker 2: being a movie that I just feel like things happen
58:46
Speaker 2: because they have to happen to get us to the
58:48
Speaker 2: next point, instead of truly feeling like I'm invested in
58:52
Speaker 2: characters and what they're doing is what drives the plot forward.
58:57
Speaker 2: And man, it's a movie that has interesting ideas that
59:03
Speaker 2: nobody cares about exploring, and it's very frustrating. And as
59:11
Speaker 2: we've mentioned many times, what it comes off as is
59:16
Speaker 2: as a TV pilot that we'll figure it out later
59:21
Speaker 2: because we get to do that. That's what you do
59:23
Speaker 2: in TV, but in film, you want each film to
59:28
Speaker 2: be a cohesive hole in itself, even if it's a
59:32
Speaker 2: part of a larger series. And there is Lord of
59:36
Speaker 2: the Rings, you know, and that even is literally a
59:40
Speaker 2: book that Tolkien wrote all together, that they split up
59:44
Speaker 2: after he wrote it, all right, But each film, each
59:49
Speaker 2: book feels like a full story in and of itself,
59:55
Speaker 2: and then we'll have a jumping off point to the
59:57
Speaker 2: next one. That's also a book where Tolkien actually didn't
1:00:03
Speaker 2: know where he was going. You can kind of feel
1:00:05
Speaker 2: that in Uh, you know, the Fellowship of the Ring.
1:00:09
Speaker 2: But there's a moment in that book where all of
1:00:11
Speaker 2: a sudden things crystallized for the author, and they crystallize
1:00:14
Speaker 2: for you as a reader. That just never happens in
1:00:19
Speaker 2: the Force awakens Uh. And it's a real travesty because
1:00:23
Speaker 2: the cast here is fantastic. We didn't even talk about that,
1:00:26
Speaker 2: but honestly, it's a waste of this cast for the
1:00:29
Speaker 2: most part, it's it's also a waste of like you said, Darren,
1:00:34
Speaker 2: you don't know how long you're gonna have with these
1:00:39
Speaker 2: original characters. Don't waste your opportunities to utilize them because
1:00:44
Speaker 2: you don't know if they're going to come again. This
1:00:48
Speaker 2: movie used to be a three for me. It's not anymore. Uh,
1:00:52
Speaker 2: it's it's a two and a half.
1:00:55
Speaker 4: It's a two and a half out of.
1:00:57
Speaker 2: Five steel Peckers. My least favorite thing in this film,
1:01:01
Speaker 2: the steel Pecker.
1:01:02
Speaker 5: I hate this.
1:01:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, well it's not my least favorite thing, but it's
1:01:06
Speaker 2: it's one of them anyway. So yeah, this is just
1:01:09
Speaker 2: a film that it really does suffer. I think from
1:01:15
Speaker 2: a lot of frustrating things that that just could have,
1:01:19
Speaker 2: I think easily been better if if you had been
1:01:24
Speaker 2: willing to spend more time on the back end or
1:01:29
Speaker 2: the front end, I guess, of the storytelling and really
1:01:32
Speaker 2: nail all this stuff down, it just would have been
1:01:37
Speaker 2: better in the end.
1:01:38
Speaker 5: I think.
1:01:39
Speaker 4: I think that they could have made everything great by
1:01:43
Speaker 4: the end of the Rise of Skywalker by having the
1:01:46
Speaker 4: steel Pecker and it's pecking at Fasma's armor. That would
1:01:50
Speaker 4: have brought it all back around for everybody that there
1:01:53
Speaker 4: we go. We have two threes in a two and
1:01:55
Speaker 4: a half. Force Awakens did not fare too well in
1:01:59
Speaker 4: this revisit from the three of us lifelong Star Wars fans. Heck,
1:02:04
Speaker 4: I have Star Wars tattoos, give me a break. So
1:02:07
Speaker 4: thank you Darren very very much for joining us. We
1:02:12
Speaker 4: will get a Star Wars tattoo on you someday, we'll
1:02:14
Speaker 4: get you drunk, We'll drag you off somewhere. We'll put
1:02:16
Speaker 4: it somewhere. It won't hurt too bad. And you know,
1:02:20
Speaker 4: but please tell everybody where they can find you.
1:02:23
Speaker 1: Oh, they can listen to me each week talking with
1:02:26
Speaker 1: you John as we talk about different directors on House.
1:02:29
Speaker 5: Lights over at the nerd Party.
1:02:31
Speaker 1: But they can also find me and all of my
1:02:33
Speaker 1: droid puppet creations at doctorSci fi dot com d r
1:02:38
Speaker 1: s c i F.
1:02:39
Speaker 4: I love it. Thank you again for joining us.
1:02:43
Speaker 5: Matt.
1:02:44
Speaker 4: Where can people find you out there in the wilds
1:02:47
Speaker 4: of the internet.
1:02:48
Speaker 2: Oh, my gosh, in the wilds of the Internet. Well,
1:02:50
Speaker 2: you can find me all over social media under the
1:02:51
Speaker 2: name Matt rushing Zer two. Of course, you know you'll
1:02:55
Speaker 2: find me over on the TFM network as well, doing
1:02:58
Speaker 2: a bunch of shows one is This So two Club,
1:03:00
Speaker 2: as we've mentioned, talking about all of the franchises we
1:03:03
Speaker 2: love outside of Star Trek. Had a blast, of course
1:03:07
Speaker 2: doing our posts over here on the nerd Pretty Network,
1:03:11
Speaker 2: which is a completed show all about every single chapter
1:03:14
Speaker 2: of the Harry Potter series one chapter time, and a
1:03:16
Speaker 2: lot of great star Trek talk to over on TFM
1:03:19
Speaker 2: with my great friend Chris Jones. So check all that out,
1:03:22
Speaker 2: and John, maybe people are just really upset with our
1:03:27
Speaker 2: conversation here and they need somebody to complain too. That
1:03:32
Speaker 2: wouldn't that be the Insane Robin that they would want to.
1:03:37
Speaker 3: Plaints too.
1:03:37
Speaker 4: Well, not only the complaints, but you can send all
1:03:40
Speaker 4: of your steel Pecker fan letters to the Insane Robin
1:03:45
Speaker 4: and he would appreciate them a great deal. That's at
1:03:48
Speaker 4: sign the Insane Robin. Look for him just about anywhere
1:03:51
Speaker 4: you can find him. Remember he is the number one
1:03:53
Speaker 4: Steelpecker fan in the world. Meanwhile, I'm over here. I'm
1:03:58
Speaker 4: the biggest fan of Solo, being on the Millennium Falcon
1:04:02
Speaker 4: and all of those sorts of things. You can find
1:04:04
Speaker 4: me as Kessel junkie out there on the wilds. And
1:04:08
Speaker 4: as Darren said, I love spending every single week talking
1:04:12
Speaker 4: about different directors with him and Tristan over on House Lights.
1:04:16
Speaker 4: We have such a great time. But gentlemen, I gotta
1:04:20
Speaker 4: say this has been a pleasure. But right now I
1:04:23
Speaker 4: think Captain FAsMA is ringing the doorbell at my apartment
1:04:26
Speaker 4: back at the Jedi temple. So I think it's time
1:04:28
Speaker 4: to close these negotiations.
1:04:31
Speaker 2: John negotiations are quotes. Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party,