Latest / The Golden Chronicles / Episode 14: Boundaries- House Rules
Transcript
- Victoria: Hi, welcome to the Golden Chronicles. If you're listening for the first time, welcome. If you've been with us for a little while, welcome back. I'm Victoria and I'm a boomer. Danielle: And I'm Danielle and I'm a millennial. And this episode is Victoria: this go? Danielle: gonna be a special episode about boundaries. full disclosure, this is the second time we're recording this episode because the first time sorry, this will be the third time we're recording this episode because the first time we recorded it, we realized that we probably don't have enough experience with boundaries for ourselves to share with you guys. And then the second time we tried to record, we realized we weren't recording. So this is round three, and we're so glad to have you guys here with us. Victoria: Okay. All right. We really like for recording. This is not really this episode is Danielle: In this episode, we wanted to slow down and talk about boundaries with someone who can help us hold this topic with a little bit more care because boundaries are often so misunderstood and so misused. And so we are so excited to welcome our very first Golden Chronicles podcast special guest, Justine Arral. Justine is a millennial, but she's also a therapist at the Refuge Center for Counseling, where she also works with continuing education Victoria: We are Is Emily, but she's also a therapist at a recommended student for counseling, but she also works for continuing education Danielle: And perinatal support. Her clinical work includes postpartum mental health, trauma, grief, and loss, life transitions, anxiety, depression, spirituality, and the big thing that we focused on here at the Golden Chronicles podcast, which is relational concerns. So today, Justine is here to help us unpack what boundaries are and what they are not. Justine, welcome. We are so glad to have you. Victoria: So it's an interesting version of it. Well they are not. Yes. Justine: Thank you. I'm so happy to be here with you guys. Thanks for having me. Danielle: Yay! So I Victoria: So I met Justine about four years ago. she's been my therapist ever since then. And I really appreciate Justine. She's helped me through so many difficulties and to move forward. after losing my husband, I did not grieve properly. And so she walked me through all of that and has gotten me to the other side and helped me through so much. and I'm very grateful and I just want to tell a quick little short story. When I was choosing a therapist, the refuge will send you photos of the therapist that they have available. And I saw Justine and I chose Justine and then I thought, no, she's too young. I want somebody with more life experience. And I looked for the oldest person on the photos. And the girl that was sitting next to me at work says, no, you should go with Justine. I think she can help. She didn't know Justine. She just felt like I probably needed someone that was in a different generation than myself to help me. Danielle: Yeah. Justine: Ha ha ha. Danielle: We should always think she's gonna go. She just me, she just vote. I I probably Victoria: And so I chose Justine and I'm so grateful that I did. I really love Justine and she's been such a blessing in my life and really has helped me out. So I'm grateful. Justine: Thank you, Victoria. It's been a privilege, a joy, actually. So thank you for sharing that. Danielle: Yeah. And we're hoping that Justine is also helpful for all of us the rest of us here as well in our boundaries conversation. We're glad to have her here. and the number of times I'm like, what does Justine say about that? Have you talked to Justine about that? Justine: Mm. Victoria: Ha ha Yeah. Justine: That's amazing. Danielle: so before we get into the real life aspects of what boundaries are, you know here at the Golden Chronicles podcast we'd really like to know what the definition is. So mom, mom, do you wanna share what the definition of boundaries is? The definition of boundaries. Victoria: The definition of boundaries that we're using today is it's a real or imagined line that marks the edge or limit of something. Great. Danielle: And for the evidence of scope. Great, that tells me everything I need to know in the episode. Justine: We're good to go. Danielle: no, okay, so Justine, if you don't mind telling us what that means in relationships. Justine: Absolutely. So I would say what personal boundaries are in an inner personal relationship. are the limits and rules we set for ourselves within relationships. a great metaphor when it comes to having personal boundaries would be having house rules. So many of us have house rules, right? So it might be different. Like some people prefer shoes on when they come in, some per people prefer to not have shoes on. others have like a coat closet, others might not, and so a lot more people are at Think open and feel more confident to stating what their house rules are opposed to personal boundaries. It just feels harder. But when you have house rules, it allows you to feel comfortable in your own home, and also people know what to expect because sometimes that could be people may not know what they need to do, maybe feel awkward when they enter into a person's home, especially if it's newer. And so it just helps to state what their limits are, what their rules are, so that everyone can just have. A great time within that framework. So that's the metaphor that like to use when it comes to boundaries are house rules. Victoria: very good. That's very good. you know I think of I live in this body, this body is my house. And so when I establish boundaries, I'm protecting myself, my house, where I reside. that's really good. I hadn't thought of it that way. Justine: Absolutely. I think Danielle: that's a great metaphor. I love that metaphor. Self-care is what we were talking about earlier too, how boundaries are a form of self-care. Justine: Mm-hmm. Danielle: what is the difference between a boundary and an ultimatum? Justine: Yeah, that is a great question. So I would say ultimatum is something that might be a possibility if the boundaries after having been communicated and maintained and the other person isn't respecting your boundaries, then that would be a last resort where an ultimatum may have to be given. hopefully not to the extreme level of ending a relationship, right? But an ultimatum will have to be given after there's been multiple attempts of communicating that your boundaries aren't being respected and the other person isn't willing to respect that, right? So an ultimatum that could be a variety of options, but that's where I would say it would be a last resort, but sometimes necessary if the other person isn't willing to respect your boundaries. Danielle: heard the saying that like you said boundaries are house rules but boundaries are rules for me and not for you. what do boundaries sound like in real life? So what taking it from the abstract into like what is would be a real boundary in a real relationship, what would that sound like? Justine: Yeah, so I mean most therapists who talk about boundaries, or are putting out information about boundaries will say that there's six areas of boundaries. Is that something that you're familiar with? Danielle: It's not. Justine: Yeah, and so that would be, let's see, you'd be like physical, sexual, intellectual, emotional, material, or time. So those are like the main six types of boundaries. So there's more than people think. But I guess an example of what that could look like would be time. That's one I think that is probably the hardest one and the most common one. So it would it would be like maybe it's a grandmother. Who is constantly being asked to watch their grandchildren more than you know they are able to. What does it look like practically? I would say, a boundary that's being crossed if their adult child knows that they only are really able to do it once a week. And maybe they're getting a text the night before, on the second night of the week, asking for more help the next day, which would then impede upon whatever their appointments are or events might be. And so that would be like a time boundary that's being crossed at that point. Yeah. Danielle: An experience with time boundaries for sure. for a long time I was super accessible to my friends all the time. But now that I'm married and I have a stepchild who I'm very involved with, Justine: Mm. Yeah. Danielle: I feel like my availability, my accessibility has been a lot more limited. And I had a friend who would, you know, ask to do something and then I would make a plan to do things And then thirty minutes before we're supposed to be somewhere, she would let me know that she like wasn't available any longer to do that. But it's like okay Justine: Actually. Victoria: and then a lot more limited. And I decided to, you know, ask to do something and I would make plan to do things and then 30 times a co-hosting would be similar. She would tell me, know, she doesn't have any other role, maybe longer to do that. But it's actually, Danielle: You can't do this all the time. can't if you don't if you can't do lunch, that's fine, but you have to let me know before I'm already in the car on the way to lunch. And so my boundary was I'm available Tuesdays and Wednesdays from eight AM to two PM and Victoria: You can't do all the time. You can't do it at the time. have to let people know you're recording this on a daily basis. So my comment was I'm available Tuesday and Wednesday from 8 a.m. to 2 p.m. Justine: Absolutely. Danielle: I would love to do something with you during that time. Otherwise I can't do anything. which is kind of hard, but Justine: Mm, that is. Danielle: Yeah, that's a something that I definitely have experienced of having to set boundaries with time. And it's really hard because I don't want to feel like I'm not a good friend because I'm not showing up for that person. Or I'm sure in the scenario of the grandparent who's watching their grandchildren, they don't wanna be a bad grandparent, right? By not showing up for their child and watching their grandchild, but there is there does have to be personal boundaries. Justine: Mm-hmm. Danielle: Yes, that's hard to do sometimes though. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Justine: That is, yeah. I think that's where some of the guilt comes in, or the guilt tripping, I would like to say, 'cause I think guilt is healthy. But when we start guilt tripping yourself like that can get really hard. And most of that is mental. Mm-hmm. Yeah. Yeah. Danielle: Guilt tripping ourself? Yes. Yeah. Yeah. I didn't think about that. I guilt trip myself all the time. Every boundary I set, I guilt trip myself, I think. How do we set boundaries without feeling like we're having to like is it our responsibility to like explain why we're setting the boundary, or is it do we need to let the person know that this is a boundary? Like, how do we establish boundaries in real life? Justine: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, yeah. Victoria: Okay. Justine: Yeah. I think that's gonna depend on the situation. So if it's a healthy enough relationship and the other person has a certain level of awareness and some level of humility, and there's like I said, a decent relationship there, then I always see communicating your boundaries broadly, right? Not we're not trying to like, Target that person and saying that we're creating boundaries because of you, but just saying, like, yeah, it's all because of you. but just saying, like, in general, I even tell my clients, like, you can blame me. You can say my therapist is really encouraging me, right? is really encouraging me to make these boundaries and these rules. like for instance, I will not be answering my phone after eight o'clock at night, right? Danielle: Right. Yeah. Victoria: Thank Danielle: Yeah. Justine: And so saying like that's just across the board for anyone. If it's a true emergency, just text, But other than that, I will not be picking up my phone, texting you, whatever it might be. so that's that's kind of what I would say at that point. Victoria: You know, even just hearing you say that causes me to be aware of the fact that I haven't set a boundary. You're saying, no, please don't call me after eight o'clock. And that's just getting me to think. Danielle: Is it that I want to Victoria: what is it that I want in my life? What are boundaries should I be establishing in my life? you know, hey, call me at one o'clock in the AM. Give me a minute to wake up and I'll talk, you but maybe that's not the best for me and maybe I need to establish that type of boundaries and other boundaries that are similar to that that I had not considered that I even needed to set. Justine: Yeah, yeah. Mm. Absolutely. Yeah. So I would say, Danielle, going back to the question, you know, that may have answered most of it, but it just depends on the situation. I think this is where it's helpful to talk with safe people, whether it's your therapist or family member or a friend, just to get not that we're trying to gossip, but just trying to get an objective point of view. And then together you can figure out if this person is capable In this season of hearing honesty. And then if they're not, then sometimes you have to make that choice without even communicating it. and if the relationship means enough to them, or sometimes even if it means enough and they're just not capable, then it's just gonna happen organically, right? Either they'll stop reaching out, they'll ghost you, or Danielle: Yeah. Justine: They might put up a fight, but that's okay. Like you can work you can work through that and navigate through that. because most people don't like boundaries, especially if they have no boundaries, they will not like boundaries and it's gonna feel hurtful. Danielle: Why do boundaries, when people put up boundaries, why do we tend to take such offense to it? What's the psychology behind that? Justine: Yeah. I mean, you know, if we're looking at it from like a therapeutic standpoint, it just kinda shows you what the negative core beliefs are that's coming up for the individual who's experiencing it. And usually it's pretty basic, right? Most people, the negative core belief is like I'm not lovable or people are gonna reject me, I'm not enough, right? So it's that fear of rejection and abandonment that I would say is a pretty common fear for people. And so if individuals haven't been working on that or if they haven't done therapy, this is a plug for therapy, then it might surprise them, especially if they have if they haven't done the work before. so it just feels hurtful because there it is. That person is changing how they are interacting with me. And so it's it's touching on that fear of rejection or abandonment. So yeah. Mm-hmm. That's usually what's coming up for people when a boundary has been placed. Danielle: Yeah. That rejection, that one's real. Victoria: I would say that I've felt that way. I've felt rejected not knowing that it was just a matter of them setting boundaries for themselves. Justine: Yeah. And this is where I think the person who's setting the boundaries, if it's safe enough, it's important for people to communicate that there's gonna be a change. Once again, not targeting specific relationship, but just saying generally, this is what I'm needing to do for my overall well being. And so I think that doesn't corner someone or point someone out, or make it awkward. so if you know, that's the best case scenario is being able to communicate it beforehand. Danielle: I like to say that no is a full sentence Justine: I mean boundaries in general is very basic, but I will say it can be like intermediate to advanced work because it's easy to understand boundaries, right? Like we can look it up, but to implement it, to maintain it, that's the hard work, right? And if you're not Victoria: Yeah. Justine: confident enough inside or if you don't feel like if you haven't worked through things that are a trigger then it can be really hard to face whatever might come all the ramifications right and you're right no can be you know a sentence in and of itself and that could be it some people who where there is I would say more harmony in the relationship, you might feel better explaining just a little bit. But for the most part, most people don't need to they don't need to know what you're sharing with your therapist, right? All the ins and outs. Talk about it with a safe person, whether it's your therapist or a friend or family member. but sometimes the less that they know, the less complicated it is. So just keep it simple. Danielle: Yeah. Keep it simple. kiss. Keep it simple, stupid. I feel like boundaries feel especially hard between parents and their adult children. I've noticed that a lot of my friends have a really hard time setting boundaries with their parents. Wells? Justine: Yeah. Victoria: With you saying that, I wonder, do you think that I respect your boundaries? Danielle: do you know what's good? Victoria: Or do you feel like you've set boundaries first and that I respect them? Danielle: well the setting boundaries is really hard for me, so Justine: Mm. Danielle: I don't know that I I mean I guess I have set boundaries with you. I feel like you respect them and I feel like if you don't respect them, I kind of just ignore it. Instead of like I'm just like I guess, you know, I'll answer the phone at whatever time. When you know, I can I can't even think right now of boundaries that I've set. Victoria: If don't respect them, I'm going ignore it. There's hell to pay. Justine: Mm. Danielle: I do feel like in life I will set a boundary and then if someone you know, crosses that boundary, I'm not very good at saying, Hey, that's my boundary that you crossed. I get I kind of like internally get frustrated or I'll say, Well, I'm just not gonna r respond and maybe that's like avoidance. as opposed to being like, hey, that's my boundary. And maybe sometimes just at the time it doesn't feel worth it for me. Like if you my friend who, you know, would cancel at the last minute, I'm still make plans with her. She still cancels. And I'm like, okay, well, this point I kind of just know who she is. And so I just kind of have a backup plan for if she cancels, I'll be in that part of town anyways. I can go to the toy store or whatever I needed to do in that part of town. As opposed to being like, hey Justine: Mm. Danielle: you're really crossing my boundaries or hey, I've already told you that I can't not to do this and you keep doing it. I don't know if that's healthy or not or not, but Justine: Mm-hmm. Victoria: think that lately since we've been spending so much time together, which I'm so grateful for, like today, You were upset today. And so two conversations that we've had come into play, unsolicited advice. Danielle: you were upset today. And so two two opposite Victoria: and boundaries. And I knew you were upset, but I kind of it kind of went over my head for a minute. And then when you explained that you were upset before you explained what was going on, I don't know if I was. Respecting a boundary by not pursuing a conversation concerning what was wrong, so I hope that. Danielle: boundary by not pursuing a conversation because everything was wrong. So I I hope that that I go across that you notice that I'm not making an explicit advice and I'm not going to crossing boundaries. Yeah. Victoria: that came across that she noticed that I'm not gonna give unsolicited advice and I'm not going to try to cross any boundaries. Danielle: I d I definitely felt like you respected when I said I don't really want to talk about it right now, I just want to get this done, that you respected that that's so yeah, I did feel like you respected that boundary. I guess I didn't that wasn't like intentionally like I'm gonna set a boundary and tell her I don't want to talk about it and that subconsciously I guess I was setting a boundary, but I do feel like you respected my need for time before I dove into what it was that I was feeling. So Victoria: And you know, that whole mommy thing or parent doesn't have to be the mom jumps in where my child is upset and I'm gonna rush in and fix it. And I realized that that's no longer my job. And it doesn't mean that I don't love you because I realized that that's not my job. Because my role has changed in your life like your role has changed in my life. And where we are now Danielle: And and I have honest that that's no longer my child. Yeah. And it doesn't mean that I don't love you because I realized Victoria: I'm not going to give unsolicited advice and I'm not going to cross your boundary. Danielle: And I'm not gonna cross it up. Yeah. So well you're gonna try not Justine: Yeah. Danielle: to, 'cause sometimes we're humans and that will probably still happen. But yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I do feel like a lot of my adult friends do have a really hard time with Justine: Good point. Victoria: When she was a kid, I used to be able to just scratch her back and that would make everything go away. Those days are gone. Justine: I know. Yeah. It's a little simpler with little kids. Victoria: Yeah. Danielle: with setting boundaries with their parents and when they do set a boundary, I feel like their parent often just tramples right over that boundary with no regard for and I and I don't know why that happens. I imagine it's because they haven't acknowledged that their role has changed in their child's life. They're like, I'm your mom and I'm always gonna tell you what to do and that's just who who moms are, but Justine: Mm. Yeah. Danielle: I guess the parent has to be willing to do the work on whatever it is that they're feeling when their child is establishing a boundary and that's hard to do sometimes. Victoria: Yeah. Justine: Yay, Victoria. Victoria: I think it does not work. Danielle: I'm glad Justine: You've Danielle: that Justine: been working hard. Danielle: my little is only eight I'm glad Justine: You've Danielle: that Justine: been working hard. Danielle: my little is only eight and our boundaries are like very minimal right now because Victoria: Very. Justine: Yeah. Danielle: I have a I have a lot to learn and I'm trying I want to make sure that I respect her boundaries as she gets older. And even like now, really crazy, she can go in her room and shut the door. I wasn't allowed to do that as a kid. You know? and I guess this is I don't know if this is a boundary, but if her door is shut, I knock. Justine: Yeah. Yeah. Hmm. Yeah. Danielle: She's in my house. You know, but but I just want to respect I want to respect her. She shut the door, she's in her own little world. I want to respect that. I don't want to just start a whole her by busting in, you know. So I don't know if that's a boundary, but I do I want to try to respect her autonomy. And I feel like sometimes adult sometimes people in general forget that other people have autonomy and that they are making their own house rules. Justine: Ha ha ha Yeah. Victoria: I'm Justine: Absolutely. I think it's a great boundary, Danielle. You're you're allowing her to know what it is that she needs. It sounds like she needs space to herself to be able to think. And so you're already teaching her that. So I I think that's wonderful. Yeah. Danielle: Yeah. She needs space to herself to be in her Victoria: Thank Danielle: own little storyline with her dollies. She doesn't want you know she doesn't. Yeah. I think she doesn't want us to hear her playing and singing and making her own storyline. But I give her that. I I recognize that she doesn't want to just play with the door open. She doesn't want to play in the living room. She wants to be in her own little world. So Justine: I love that. I love that. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Victoria: Thank you. Danielle: I think sometimes when we Victoria: Bye. Danielle: learn something new like boundaries. It's easy to sometimes fall in the habit of kind of using this therapy language as a way to maybe avoid accountability or shut down hard conversations. specifically thinking of like adult child and parent relationships where the child will like set a boundary or somebody will set a boundary and then it's it's just to avoid the accountability. I don't want to talk about that. We're not going to talk about that. I you know so Victoria: Thank Justine: Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Danielle: How do we use Victoria: So Danielle: boundaries in a healthy way versus realizing when we're using this therapy language or the idea of boundaries in a way that is is not healthy. Yeah. Or shut someone out. Victoria: how is... to shut someone down. Justine: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. And yeah, yeah. And it's happening. You know, I think people are throwing around therapeutic words to diagnose themselves, first of all, or even just to don't know what a milder word would be would be, but just to like almost weaponize it. right, to where people are then gonna completely back off, right? Danielle: Yes. Justine: And so I think a helpful way to look at boundaries are there's three common traits of boundaries, and you guys may have already been familiar with it, but there's of course healthy boundaries, which there are traits for that, and then there's also something called porous boundaries, and that's where you really have no boundaries. This is someone who's gonna say yes to everything, so yes, man. And then you also have rigid boundaries, which is like imagine like a wall going up. Which is more the avoidance that you're talking about. And so some of us might find ourselves in all three, others might see themselves more in the porous and the healthy. But all that to say, with the healthy, and I'll kind of read it off to you if that feels helpful, right? With healthy boundaries, you value your own opinion, you don't compromise your values, you share personal information appropriately. Right. So not over-sharing or even under sharing. You know your wants, needs, and then you can communicate them. And then you accept when others say no to you. And then you're also able to say no. So as you hear that, healthy boundaries doesn't mean that you just avoid something and avoid a topic or a person. there has to be a level of communication that you still needs to be there if you want to maintain that relationship. Right. And so I think thinking about porous would be having no walls and then rigid would be having walls way up. And people, for the most part, can sense the difference between those three. So I'm not sure what your guys's experience has been with that. but that's also something that's addressed, I would say, with certain clients who you know, almost go to the opposite extreme and just completely wall up and don't let anyone in. And so we also address that in therapy if I see that as something that's coming up for them. Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. I feel like I do see that a lot too with my friends who are working on their relationship with their parents where they're just like, Okay, well then you have no access to me. No access, no conversations, I don't want to hear it, I don't want you to hear it, you know. as opposed to people like me who are just like, I have no boundaries like walk all over me, it's fine, I love it. No really, this is cool. Victoria: can't even say that to my friends who are in a relationship with their grandparents where they just like, no access, no conversations, I don't hear it, I don't even hear it, And I suppose to people like me who are just like, I don't know you, I don't know about you, I'm I'm like, no no, this is cool. Justine: Yeah. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yeah. thanks for your honesty. Yeah. Danielle: Yeah. that I do, I see a lot of women and men, but mostly women my age who really I don't think they understand boundaries. I think boundaries are offensive to them and they believe that their adult child is even aware that they themselves need a boundary. Victoria: You know, living in the community that I do, I see a lot of women and men, but mostly women my age who really, I don't think they understand the boundaries. I think boundaries are offensive to them. And they believe that if their adult child is even aware that they themselves need a boundary and they verbalize that. Justine: Mm-hmm. Hm. Danielle: and they the parent has a difficult time accepting that that's a boundary and what that really means. and I think because and there are a lot of people, billions, that understand what a boundary is and the the purpose of it and the necessity of having boundaries. Sometimes people invite Victoria: the parent has a difficult time accepting that that's a boundary and what that really means. I think because maybe, and there are a lot of people, billions, that understand what a boundary is and the purpose of it and the necessity of having boundaries. Sometimes people in my generation, because of what we saw from the generation before us, just do not understand the importance of a boundary as not to be offensive. And like we discussed, it's not really to keep someone out. is just manage your home in a manner in which is appropriate for you, your home, yourself, your person. And so I think that's lost on a lot of people my age, unfortunately, because we have this mentality of still being the parent, which you are, but you're the parent of an adult, which I think is missed Justine: Yeah yeah. Danielle: Which I is missed sometimes. Justine: Absolutely. Yeah. Danielle: Yeah. I wonder if like Victoria: sometimes. Danielle: I wonder if like Victoria: sometimes. Danielle: boomers and earlier generations have been taught like family loyalty and keeping the peace are kind of like the priority in familial relationships where like millennials and gin Z and Jen Alpha are being taught self-care, what emotional labor is, what autonomy is, where like just the the things that we're being taught about ourselves. I know for us especially, like in the environment that we grew up in, I don't feel like we were taught The importance of boundaries. We were taught like the importance of like yes. And yeah, obedience is a big one. Where like now I feel like people are are like, mmm, it's not just about obedience, it's about what's best for me and what everybody's different, and it does you know, hope success and happiness and all these things don't look the same, mental health don't look the same for you as they do for me. And I wonder if that's why there's such a disconnect sometimes between Victoria: Good night. Justine: Mm-hmm. Danielle: you know, a boomer parent and a millennial adult child and because we have been our culture around boundaries is very different. Justine: Yeah, I would agree. I would say each generation has its own set of like values and norms and standards. And and it's not that one generation is better than the other. It's just when you mix the two generations or three, you're almost not speaking the same language, right? And then you're also interpreting even body language. That could all be so different. And so when you think about boomers, like that's gonna be more loyalty, right? Trust, authority is like priority, I would say. So whether it's the boomer being the authority or boomers listening to authority figures or the professionals, that's huge for them. I would say prioritizing family over everything, right? Regardless of how it impacts the self. was huge. Danielle: Right. Justine: and then boundaries just wasn't a word that was really used up until I would say twenty years ago. And so that is different from millennials and, you know, I don't know what the other generations are. Gen Z, Gen Alpha. Is this is that the newest one? Alpha, maybe I don't I don't even know what my kids are. I think it's Alpha, yeah. Right. And then Danielle: Yeah, yeah, yeah. Justine: Millennials would be were raised in a time where mental health, although we didn't grow up with it, it was introduced to us middle school, high school, I would say for a lot of us. And so then boundaries became a common word, right? We were learning about in psychology class and then it started showing up in magazines and social media. And so there is more of an emotional awareness, there's an openness. we really do value authenticity. then what's original and independent, right? Like those are like really big values. So once again, different, not better. it's just different. And so that can be the hard part when we're trying to interact with one another from a different generation. and so it can feel uncomfortable, but uncomfortable doesn't always mean it's wrong. It just might mean something different. Danielle: Yeah. Justine: But to like Victoria, to what you were talking about with some of the folks in your community, uncomfortable to them probably equates wrong, right? Whereas I think the younger generation, there's a more of an adaptability. And so sometimes we've been taught that even if it's uncomfortable, we're gonna say it and we're gonna do it differently. So That might be some of the difference. Yeah. Victoria: Good point. Yeah, that's a very good point. I totally agree with that. Danielle: We already did why boundaries feel the guilt and grief values, forty percent of saying boundaries we have, that word grief is is pretty powerful. Victoria: So if we discuss the guilt and grief of boundaries or the resentment of setting boundaries, that word grief is pretty powerful because there's so much emotion that's associated with grief and how that will be displayed, how it will be received, how it will be perceived. And I think that has a lot to do with Danielle: read and how that will be displayed, how it will be seen, how it will be received. And I Victoria: one person accepting the boundaries of another and even maybe it may have an effect on a person establishing boundaries for themselves. That's, I think, and I may be using the wrong term, but that's quite complex using the term grief and grief with boundaries. Danielle: the with like with boundaries. Yeah. Yeah. I think I think sometimes when we establish boundaries people grieve the old relationship. Like the relationship is changing now, right? And so like I don't want this relationship to change. I like having access to this person or I don't want this relationship to change. Like I said earlier, I don't want that person to think that I'm a bad friend. That person thinks that I'm the person that they can come to all the time. And I don't want them to think that like I'm not dependable or something like that. So grieving the old relationship And maybe that's why people like me don't like to set boundaries is because like I don't wanna shake things up. I just like if it's working, it's it's not, obviously. Like if you feel like you need boundaries, it's not really working. But like it's working well enough. I don't want to shake it up. I don't want to like change things too much. So like I'll just deal with it as if because I don't want to to grieve or maybe not even grieve, but have to deal with that relationship changing and what that means for the relationship to change. As someone who's establishing boundaries and I feel like maybe the same for someone who's having boundaries placed in front of them. Justine: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm. Danielle: that they're they're grieving an old relationship or the boundaries revealing how that relationship needs to change or how someone's been acting in that relationship and who you know kind of forces you to look at yourself and be like, Okay, what how am I operating that maybe isn't working and that's hard to do sometimes too, 'cause if you've been operating in a certain way for, I don't know, thirty eight years, for example, and then you have to change the way that you're operating. It's it's not comfortable. Like it's not a comfortable thing to do. also I don't want people to be disappointed in me. Setting a boundary like with my friend who, you know, wouldn't show up for dinner. I didn't want to not be available when she needed me to be and then her be disappointed in me. So how do we tolerate the discomfort of of boundaries and setting them and receiving them understanding that they can be loving but they still might be uncomfortable. We kinda touched on that a little bit, but Justine: Yeah. This is where I had said that maintaining boundaries is more intermediate and advanced work because it you know it's is not something that I introduce to people in the early stages of counseling because so much of how you were raised, what was modeled to you, that's what's showing up, right? And so if you don't understand the patterns that have been in place already you know internally. Danielle: Yeah. Justine: it's it's it becomes very complex and confusing and it can be very discombobulating. And so it helps for a lot of people, I would say, to work through their family dynamics, what was modeled to them, you know, even some grievances along the way. that helps you have more language to what's going on. And I think even being very aware of like, what is my fear? Like, what is my negative? belief because that's probably what's gonna come up. And it might be like, I don't want to be alone. Like I don't want to feel that. And so I'm gonna keep on people pleasing. I'm just giving an example, right? I'm gonna keep on people pleasing so that I don't ever have to feel I'm alone. Right. And so I'm gonna take what I can get. And so before I at least when it comes to therapy, before I have a client Danielle: Yeah. Justine: put in that kind of work to start communicating to people, we're gonna do some internal work first so that there's some healing and growth to where they feel more regulated and stable so that if you know the unthinkable happens and the ramifications are more difficult than they had expected, they can in some ways handle that. And so it does take a lot of work, I would say, to get to a place where you can start implementing and enforcing boundaries. Because there's for the most part, there's gonna be something that's gonna be uncomfortable at the least. And then it could even be painful at times and very challenging. and things can change. And that change is always hard. It's uncomfortable. It doesn't always mean bad, but it can be painful at first. Danielle: Yeah. Victoria: I think that once I understood you helped me understand that Danielle: understood how you understand it. Justine: Mm-hmm. Danielle: And that my talk says I am not here. And when you unlock that, that changed my life. First of all, I realized that that's the life. It took me Victoria: I have negative self-talk and that my negative self-talk says I am not capable. And when you unlocked that, that changed so much in my life. First of all, I realized that that's a lie. It took me... Justine: Yeah. Danielle: a long time to that that wasn't life. But then what I realized that and then spirit are talking about that. Victoria: a long time to even acknowledge that that was a lie. But then when I realized that and then we did start talking about boundaries, I realized that I have the importance of setting that boundary for myself and not putting myself in that headspace or that space or crossing that boundary and agreeing with that lie that I'm not capable. So for me, boundaries are just, there's just so much to that. And it's so important that I set the boundary of, I'm not going to talk to myself like that. Instead of me saying to someone else, you will not speak to me that way. I have to tell myself, you will not speak to yourself that way. So boundaries are so much more complex than what I. Danielle: Just there's so much to that. And it's so important that I said down here, I'm not gonna talk to myself like that. Instead of saying to someone else you will not speak to that way. Justine: Yeah. Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Mm. Danielle: So mounties are so much more wet. It's it seems like smaller, but it's huge. Victoria: It seems like a small word, but it's huge. Danielle: Yeah. Advanced therapy. you've heard it here first, ladies and gentlemen. Everyone run out and get yourself a therapist. Yeah, yeah. okay, so boundaries are hard, boundaries are painful, boundaries suck. So what are the good things about boundaries? Justine: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. Victoria: They are necessary. Justine: Good start. Yep. well. Times it can. Danielle: Yeah. Justine: They give you yes, they're necessary. They b they bring the peace that I think everyone is wanting. It just takes some work to get there. But I promise it's worth it. Danielle: I I say that boundaries are a good way to help me know how to exist, right? So like if I know what your boundaries are, I can fill up the box of our relationship all the way to the top because I know what the boundaries of that box are, right? As opposed to just like not having any kind of boundaries or not having any kind of guidelines or anything and just being like, Well, this is just we're all a free for all kind of relationship. But in my opinion, like boundaries just help us know exactly our place in our relationship, right? Justine: Yeah, yes. Yeah. Victoria: I sometimes use the term that I need to stay in my lane and that helps me to remember that the other person does have a boundary and I need to be mindful not to cross that. Justine: Mm. Victoria: but to stay, have an appropriate relationship with them, not give them unsolicited advice. Remember that their role has changed in my life. And all of that helps me to remain in my lane. It doesn't keep me away from them. It just helps me to have a better connection with them. That's how it works for me. Danielle: Yeah, which is how it needs to have it better connected with the best. Justine: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Danielle: Yeah. And I think it plays into expectations as well. It helps us adjust our expectations when we know what the boundaries are. Justine: Mm-hmm. Yeah. I think that's where I talked about the six areas of boundaries. a great place to start is figuring out what that looks like for yourself. And that as you become more acquainted with what boundaries are and what boundaries look like for yourself, you're going to start to notice it in other people. and you'll be able to figure out what it is that they're needing, even if they haven't done the work or communicated that, you're just gonna become more aware and you're gonna start seeing it. Danielle: Mm-hmm. Justine: and so I think it's a great place to start is figuring out what are your values and then what what are your boundaries when it comes to the six types of boundaries like physical, sexual, intellectual, emotional, material, and time. and I know I had alluded to Nidra's book, and she also goes into that, so that could be a great place for people to work, work on is she lays it out. Pretty clearly. Danielle: Would you give us a title of that once again? Justine: Yeah, Victoria: Would you give us the title of that book once again? Justine: it is like a find it. Set boundaries, find peace. And that's by Nidra Tawab. I might be butchering that last name, but it's T A W W A B. Danielle: I'll put it in our show notes too so that if anybody wants to find it, they'll be able to find it easy. wow, this is a really great conversation. I feel like I've learned a lot. Me too. Justine: Yes, yes. Perfect. Yes. Victoria: Wow, this is a really fair conversation. You lot. Me too. Me too. I'm going to go set some boundaries. Excuse me, ladies. Justine: You go do that. Danielle: now you said that an I know it's probably very nuanced, but how are some ways to make sure that people are respecting your boundaries and and acknowledging when they're cost? Justine: Yeah. going back to like, you know, because we're constantly texting or or calling people, but if someone continues to call you after like eight o'clock and you've already and then you and this is where you want to go back and communicate over and over again. Don't just change your mind because it's getting difficult. Right. And so if you can keep that line and say, these are my rules, and you continue to communicate it because people will forget, or maybe they're curious and wanting to see if they can persuade you differently. But you have to ensure that once you communicate the boundaries, that you uphold it and keep it and that it's consistent. Right. And so Danielle: Yeah. Yeah. Justine: That will help to be able to hopefully in some ways, like is that an ultimatum? I I don't know if that is, but that's like just maintaining it. and there are, of course, more serious boundaries that people have to place, right? And so that might be if someone is in a more abusive relationship, that will probably require an ultimatum. And that I would say would be. not something that we're trying to do consistently over and over again after it's been broken. so I would approach that situation differently. but I'm just talking about something that isn't a non-abusive relationship. and so I don't know what the number would be if someone were to continue calling you after eight o'clock. but I would think most people will get the picture. Either they're just gonna stop calling you and be frustrated or they're gonna hopefully respect you. And that's usually the two ways I've seen people go. Victoria: the community that I live in, there is a woman who has some issues And she's spoken to me in a manner in which I did not like. She's done some things that I saw her do that I thought were inappropriate. And so I made the conscious decision not to speak with her at all. Danielle: And so I made decision not to speak with her at all except to say hello or goodbye. Because everything that she tried to have a conversation with Victoria: except to say hello or goodbye because everything that she tried to have a conversation with me about was from her perspective of I'm her I'm her target and I don't want to be that. So I set a boundary to keep her out. by not speaking with her. Do you believe that that's that's too harsh or severe? Justine: Not necessarily. I think this Victoria: harsh or severe? Justine: Not necessarily. I think this is where, you know, as Danielle had mentioned, it's very nuanced and it's gonna depend on each situation. there are times where I think communication is gonna be crucial, but that's more for relationships that are you know family or a close friend where there's already an established relationship there, but someone who's newer to you, or maybe they're just not capable. Of hearing that and you guys don't have that you don't have that foundation. Sometimes you're just gonna create the boundaries and place it there and the other person won't even know. And I think that's okay. Yeah. Victoria: I don't have to explain. Look, I'm not speaking to you. Stop asking me questions. Okay. Talk to me. Justine: Mm. That's right, yeah. That's right. Danielle: She's walking down the hall and you're walking past her and you're like, don't even try to talk to me. I've already decided I'm not talking to you today. Yeah, Justine: That's right. That's right. Boundaries. Yeah. Danielle: yeah. I know that you were wondering, but my boundaries, I'm not talking to you. Yeah, so I have to be my Victoria: you Justine: That's right. That's right. Victoria: Yeah, so I have to be mindful Danielle: It it's a boundary that I've set for myself. I don't have Victoria: of, it's a boundary that I've set for myself. I don't have to promote it or in a manner which she knows that, you know, I'm not talking to you, leave me alone. Justine: Yeah. Danielle: sh she knows that, you know, yeah, I'm not talking to you. Leave me. Justine: Yeah, yeah. I think there is a level of wisdom in that goes into those decisions. And this is where I say it's helpful to talk it out with your therapist or with a safe friend or family member. and sometimes it's just not constructive to communicate what you're doing. and I think that there's room for that as well. Danielle: Yeah, 'cause when you say that, that kind of makes me think, am I trying to say I'm better than you because I have this boundary and I'm sh shutting you out because you're ridiculous? Is all of that going through my head? Which it's been about. It just needs to be it doesn't need to be about it like you said it's not about showing her out. Even in this situation, it's about keeping the safe. Victoria: Yeah, because when you say that, kind of makes me think, am I trying to say I'm better than you because I have this boundary and I'm shutting you out because you're ridiculous? Is all of that going through my head? Which it should not. It just needs to be, it doesn't need to be about her. Like we said earlier, it's not about shutting her out. Even in this situation, it's about keeping me safe and comfortable. Justine: Mm. Danielle: And Justine: Mm-hmm. Victoria: Were those the two terms that you used? and comfortable. Okay. Justine: Yeah, I believe so. Mm-hmm. Danielle: All Victoria: Thank you Justine: Of course this was such a joy. Victoria: so much. Danielle: Yeah, this was a really great this is a really great conversation. Thank you so much for your time. what is one thing, Justine, that you wish that everybody just understood across the board about boundaries? Any one thing in particular? Justine: Of course. that's a good question. what could I say? Danielle: What Justine: think boundaries are worth it for your own peace. and also I think being able to approach boundaries with curiosity as the person who's creating the boundaries and also guess receiving the boundaries is helpful. So if our stance rather than defensiveness is curiosity, I think that helps us to have an open heart and will help to be able to maintain that relationship. Danielle: Great. Justine: Especially the relationships that mean a lot to us. So I think curiosity can help us, yeah, can be very beneficial in in all parts of our Danielle: Yeah, Justine: relationships. Danielle: I agree. We talk about that a lot here on the Golden Chronicles just to be curious, seek to understand. Yeah. Victoria: Thank you. Justine: good Yeah. Victoria: Yeah, I think that's so good. Yeah, yeah, and I think that if we go into relationships or connecting with others, understanding that they have boundaries and understanding their boundaries, this makes me emotional. I think that's just loving them to say they have a boundary and I am going to respect that. That's really good. Thank you. Danielle: Yeah. They have boundary and I want to respect that. Thanks. Sweet. Thank you guys. Thank you, Justine, for joining us on the Golden Chronicles podcast. Yay. Justine: It was so fun. Thank you, ladies. I appreciate Victoria: I'm going to to bed. Danielle: Thank you Justine: it. Danielle: to all of you guys for Thank you Justine: it. Danielle: to all of you guys for joining us in this conversation. we of course love to hear your thoughts. We'd love to hear what you have to say about your experience with boundaries and how boundaries have shown up in your life, where your struggle with boundaries are. We want to hear it all. So feel free to message us, visit us on Facebook. Also, please don't forget to like, follow, and review our podcast on Spotify and Apple And I think that's it for us, you guys. Yay! First special guest episode. Yeah. All right. We'll talk with you guys soon. And see you in a couple of hours. So much. Okay, bye. Bye. Okay, I'm gonna stop the Justine: Thank Victoria: Yay. Justine: you. I love it. I love it. Thank you. Victoria: Yay. All right. And I'll be seeing you in a couple of hours. Yeah. OK, Justin, thank you so much. OK. Justine: All right. That's right. Get ready to talk about boundaries. You're welcome. Bye.