Latest / Left of the Projector / Bugonia (2025)

Transcript

Bugonia (2025) · Left of the Projector

• 0:00
  Track 1: Yeah i think when we did this like i was looking at dawson when we did that nized out it was like,
• 0:04
  Track 1: january of 2023 which like feels like uh it was like a lot so long ago uh now
• 0:12
  Track 1: new other hosts and you know so all kinds of stuff going on um that's.
• 0:17
  Track 2: Uh nice to meet you dawson.
• 0:18
  Track 4: Yeah nice to meet you yeah i've known heaven for forever but haven't met the
• 0:23
  Track 4: other two of you i don't think it's.
• 0:25
  Track 3: Nice to meet you i'm ward.
• 0:26
  Track 1: Yeah the other of them i don't think you guys are on you guys never they never
• 0:29
  Track 1: were on tiktok right i know that no for sure really but war you have tiktok
• 0:34
  Track 1: though word you used to send me yeah.
• 0:36
  Track 3: I like was barely on there i posted like maybe like three four things on there
• 0:40
  Track 3: and then i just would scroll and send people stuff.
• 0:43
  Track 2: I had a tiktok because people kept
• 0:45
  Track 2: sending me shit and then all of a sudden tiktok decided that like my account
• 0:50
  Track 2: was banned an account i never posted anything on or used other than to look
• 0:56
  Track 2: at things people sent me and then it was like your account is banned i was like
• 1:00
  Track 2: okay i'm not gonna miss this please.
• 1:04
  Track 1: That's honestly just what tiktok does you're like we're just like feel like banning you today.
• 1:09
  Track 2: It's like for what i've literally done nothing on this fucking app.
• 1:13
  Track 1: They banned my original account there like way back in.
• 1:34
  Track 3: Hello, and welcome to Left of the Projector. I'm your host, Ward,
• 1:37
  Track 3: back at it again with another film discussion from the left.
• 1:40
  Track 3: If you'd like to support the show for as little as $3 a month,
• 1:43
  Track 3: you can go to Patreon forward slash Left of the Projector pod.
• 1:46
  Track 3: If you like to dress in style, we've got shirts and at leftoftheprojectorpod.threadless.com,
• 1:52
  Track 3: you can grab one and show everyone you've got the best taste around.
• 1:55
  Track 3: Wherever you're listening, give us a rating and subscribe and you'll get notified
• 1:59
  Track 3: of our weekly episodes that drop every Tuesday. Now, on to the show.
• 2:05
  Track 3: This week on the show, we take a stab at our first Yorgos Lanthimos film with
• 2:09
  Track 3: his most recent endeavor for 2025, Begonia.
• 2:12
  Track 3: The film is a remake of the Korean film Save the Green Planet and stars Emma
• 2:16
  Track 3: Stone, Jesse Plemons, Alicia Silverstone, Stavros Hauquias, and Aidan Delvis.
• 2:22
  Track 3: It has been nominated for four Academy Awards, which have yet to be announced
• 2:26
  Track 3: as we're recording this before the Oscars. Like many of Lanthimos' films,
• 2:30
  Track 3: they border on the absurd and really
• 2:32
  Track 3: take you to places that offer social commentary in a really bizarre way.
• 2:35
  Track 3: With us to discuss the film is Dawson, who you may remember from way back when,
• 2:39
  Track 3: when we covered first, first covered Knives Out film.
• 2:43
  Track 4: Thank you for having me.
• 2:45
  Track 1: Of course. Thanks for coming back. And I feel like the, the,
• 2:49
  Track 1: I guess the obvious question is, so you, you had reached out because I had no
• 2:53
  Track 1: longer have a TikTok as you will probably keep some of us bantering about TikTok at the beginning.
• 2:57
  Track 1: But what made you pick this film?
• 3:01
  Track 1: Cause it was like pretty much like, yes, this is the one, you know,
• 3:04
  Track 1: this is the, this is the pitch. We should do begonia.
• 3:06
  Track 1: And I had already seen it. So curious why you thought about doing it.
• 3:10
  Track 4: Yeah, I don't know. I saw Begonia in its opening week in theaters,
• 3:15
  Track 4: the first film I'd seen in a theater in probably three years.
• 3:19
  Track 4: And I, you know, thought about it a lot, talked with my girlfriend about it
• 3:22
  Track 4: for like two months straight.
• 3:24
  Track 4: And it's still on my mind, you know, all this time later, trying to really dissect
• 3:28
  Track 4: the themes and commentary Yoros has. So that's why I reached out.
• 3:32
  Track 1: Yeah no i'm glad you did we we i mean
• 3:35
  Track 1: i don't know that we necessarily thought about doing it but i also saw
• 3:38
  Track 1: it in the theater and think about it
• 3:41
  Track 1: i mean we just did an episode last night that's coming out tomorrow well
• 3:45
  Track 1: not when you're listening about the like the top the the pictures not the movies
• 3:50
  Track 1: nominated for best picture this year and like some of them i think about like
• 3:53
  Track 1: not at all like that movie i watched it and it just disappeared from my brain
• 3:57
  Track 1: but begonia is one of the few there that I also feel like it's constantly on my mind.
• 4:03
  Track 1: So I think Ward has seen it a few times. You saw it for the first time,
• 4:06
  Track 1: Bill. So what did you guys think of it? I want to go for it. Go, Bill.
• 4:11
  Track 3: Okay.
• 4:11
  Track 1: I wore it.
• 4:13
  Track 3: Hey, first time back. Give me a minute. Yeah, no, I really enjoyed it.
• 4:16
  Track 3: I watched it today for the third time just so I could get a refresher in because
• 4:22
  Track 3: it's been a little while since I've seen it, a couple months.
• 4:25
  Track 3: But yeah, no, I watched it a couple times before that. I really enjoyed it.
• 4:28
  Track 3: Went and watched the original that it's based on.
• 4:31
  Track 3: I enjoyed that one a little bit more, not gonna lie.
• 4:34
  Track 3: It's just overall just a more fun film, a little more over the top in areas
• 4:37
  Track 3: that really just leans into the humor of it all instead of trying to make it
• 4:41
  Track 3: so serious the whole time.
• 4:43
  Track 3: Not the whole time, but more serious in this version.
• 4:46
  Track 1: What do you say, Bill?
• 4:47
  Track 2: I really enjoyed it. I mean, I have feelings about the ending,
• 4:52
  Track 2: but I did really enjoy it.
• 4:57
  Track 2: I've been looking forward to doing it. Actually, if you recall,
• 5:00
  Track 2: Evan, we did Eddington. That was like one of the options. I was like, what about Begonia?
• 5:03
  Track 2: Because I hadn't seen it yet. I was like, oh, you know, like,
• 5:05
  Track 2: what about Begonia? Because Begonia seems like it would be a good one to cover.
• 5:08
  Track 2: But i'm glad you know that you know we waited until because especially since
• 5:12
  Track 2: ward has seen it like multiple times because otherwise we would have done it
• 5:15
  Track 2: it was just like two of us like oh yeah you know um and you know with dawson
• 5:20
  Track 2: here as well i i really did enjoy it i think it was,
• 5:23
  Track 2: really i had no idea it was based on another film which i'm gonna
• 5:25
  Track 2: go find that and watch that as well but i
• 5:29
  Track 2: i think there's you know there's a lot to it i think
• 5:31
  Track 2: it's it was really good i really enjoyed it and plemons and stone like they're
• 5:35
  Track 2: phenomenal i mean like i'm always like you know we talked about plemons last
• 5:40
  Track 2: night about how like basically he doesn't get the recognition he deserves by
• 5:43
  Track 2: like the establishment like he's been nominated a bunch of times like never
• 5:47
  Track 2: wins anything but he really deserves stuff you know i.
• 5:50
  Track 1: Remember when i went to see in the theater and i i literally
• 5:53
  Track 1: had didn't even see the trail i just like went in being like this this
• 5:56
  Track 1: is a yorka film i'm just gonna like ride you
• 5:59
  Track 1: know go go along for the ride and the first
• 6:02
  Track 1: 15 minutes or so even like i don't want
• 6:05
  Track 1: to call it a cold open but before they put the title card on they're sort
• 6:08
  Track 1: of giving you that whole sort of informative idea about
• 6:11
  Track 1: bees and kind of going through the
• 6:14
  Track 1: ecosystem and i don't know did you i was trying to think in sort of like analyzing
• 6:19
  Track 1: it from uh obviously from like a leftist perspective is do you need all of that
• 6:24
  Track 1: like is it necessary to kind of give that sense of the bees and everything sort
• 6:31
  Track 1: of understanding and then you sort of then see you know,
• 6:35
  Track 1: emma stone's character the sort of sterile cold person and
• 6:38
  Track 1: then jesse plemons is sort of like the more you know working class you know
• 6:42
  Track 1: working person and i don't know it's kind of giving you all three perspectives
• 6:47
  Track 1: or maybe you're meant to like see the bees and like these are the two the queen
• 6:50
  Track 1: and then the the worker bee i guess as i think about it i don't know what you all think.
• 6:56
  Track 4: I think there's there's like a lot of irony in that because it's really just
• 7:02
  Track 4: like building expectations for what you imagine these characters to be and then
• 7:06
  Track 4: you know with the ending especially it's like so i i think it is useful in kind
• 7:12
  Track 4: of pointing us towards a certain direction and then subverting that i guess.
• 7:15
  Track 1: Yeah.
• 7:16
  Track 2: The bees to me are
• 7:20
  Track 2: such a powerful like metaphor a big and especially
• 7:23
  Track 2: when it goes into the colony collapse disorder because it all
• 7:26
  Track 2: about like it was like to me it is less about the
• 7:30
  Track 2: whole like you know like the colony and like the queen and like working
• 7:33
  Track 2: class and like i'm a stone you know more so
• 7:36
  Track 2: the like the way in which systems fall
• 7:41
  Track 2: apart but also the way in which humans unknowingly and just like ignorantly
• 7:48
  Track 2: change the world without really like understanding what they're doing and how
• 7:54
  Track 2: like you just make decisions based on like individual,
• 8:00
  Track 2: like you know interest individualist you know like make that choice and then never.
• 8:07
  Track 2: Really contend with the systemic problems that that it brings but that it then
• 8:13
  Track 2: brings about these when you zoom out nature in general like how that has affected
• 8:19
  Track 2: you know because to go back about the fact that like bees are the underpinning
• 8:25
  Track 2: of like, you know, whole ecosystems.
• 8:27
  Track 2: Like they go, shit goes like bad, you know,
• 8:32
  Track 2: Because it's colony, we apply colony collapse disorder to the bees themselves,
• 8:37
  Track 2: but colony collapse disorder, when they collapse, that affects the colony of everything.
• 8:45
  Track 2: It's the whole colony. It's everything. It's total collapse.
• 8:49
  Track 3: Yeah, no, absolutely. I mean, you even have Teddy explaining that to like Don
• 8:52
  Track 3: in the early moments of the film when they're walking.
• 8:55
  Track 3: He's like, oh, are these people fine? He's like, yeah, they're fine.
• 8:58
  Track 3: Like not fine, fine. Hollow, you know, like the rest of us.
• 9:01
  Track 3: Harmless. Hopeless. that's the way they planned it to make us like bees a dead
• 9:05
  Track 3: colony atomized in a trillion directions with no way home again that's direct correlation.
• 9:13
  Track 1: Yeah. And then maybe like very, very briefly for, you know, if you haven't seen
• 9:17
  Track 1: it yet and you obviously you should definitely go watch it.
• 9:20
  Track 1: But the like the overall, I guess, plot or structure of the movie is pretty simple.
• 9:27
  Track 1: I mean, I think the messages that we'll talk about and what's underlying is
• 9:29
  Track 1: more complex. But you basically had Emma Stone playing the CEO of a pharmaceutical company.
• 9:35
  Track 1: And Jesse Plemons is a worker at a packaging plant owned by the same company.
• 9:41
  Track 1: And he lives, his mom is sick, we learn a little later, is in the hospital,
• 9:46
  Track 1: which we also learn is due to the same company, the pharmaceutical company.
• 9:49
  Track 1: And they abduct Emma Stone and accuse her of being an alien and to bring them to her mothership.
• 9:58
  Track 1: And it's sort of the, for the most part, most of the film is them interrogating
• 10:05
  Track 1: her, trying to get answers.
• 10:06
  Track 1: And like, we slowly learn, you know, more things about it.
• 10:10
  Track 1: And i don't know when i went into it in the early stages of the movie i'm just assuming.
• 10:17
  Track 1: Okay there's no way that she's an alien this is just sort of this
• 10:20
  Track 1: conspiracy theory that these people are building and that's
• 10:23
  Track 1: the thing that i keep coming back to is the idea of conspiracy theories
• 10:27
  Track 1: and how that plays a role in so many
• 10:31
  Track 1: people's lives you know you go down a rabbit hole alt-right pipeline or the
• 10:36
  Track 1: conspiracy pipeline and a lot of times conspiracies are complete bullshit sometimes
• 10:41
  Track 1: they're just kind of covering for the slightly less absurd real thing yeah.
• 10:48
  Track 2: I just want to say for anybody listening if you have not watched this movie
• 10:53
  Track 2: this is not one of the movies that like you listen to the episode and I can
• 10:57
  Track 2: watch do not do not finish this episode like you will,
• 11:05
  Track 2: the movie will be ruined for you like go watch it first do not allow yourself to be spoiled.
• 11:15
  Track 4: Yeah yeah yeah like even when i watched it i spoiled the absolute ending for myself,
• 11:23
  Track 4: but even knowing just that like the one sentence description of the end like
• 11:29
  Track 4: there was still so much that did shock me and like you know brought emotions
• 11:35
  Track 4: out of me the other smaller twists.
• 11:39
  Track 1: What did you think about the the i mean we like we had to so like those we put
• 11:43
  Track 1: together beforehand And I like I think I sort of go back and forth on Plemons
• 11:47
  Track 1: character as to whether he's like I think Bill and I were talking about this yesterday is like,
• 11:51
  Track 1: is he the kind of conspiracy person who's so close to getting the thing but
• 11:56
  Track 1: just can't like make the right assumption that things are because of capitalism or because of,
• 12:01
  Track 1: you know, the inherent the failures of our structure or if it's some other it's something else.
• 12:08
  Track 2: That goes straight to the end of the movie like.
• 12:11
  Track 1: That. Well, well, okay.
• 12:13
  Track 3: Yeah.
• 12:14
  Track 1: Okay.
• 12:14
  Track 2: You can't talk about that without going right to the end of the movie.
• 12:18
  Track 1: I know. I know. Well, I mean, it's hard. Yeah. I guess you're right.
• 12:23
  Track 2: Okay. I think what is, before we ever get to that point, what struck me was, okay, I,
• 12:36
  Track 2: spoilers. If you're got, you know, you're going to be here. She's an alien.
• 12:41
  Track 2: Okay. So now we got that out of the way.
• 12:44
  Track 2: Okay. Before we ever get to that point, what struck me is when they have her after they've,
• 12:52
  Track 2: after they've kidnapped her and they have her
• 12:55
  Track 2: in the basement and they're talking to her the the
• 13:00
  Track 2: gulf in communication between the
• 13:04
  Track 2: language and the way in which the f
• 13:08
  Track 2: the everyday normal person like plemmons
• 13:11
  Track 2: like a working-class person and the the corporate speak
• 13:14
  Track 2: the language she uses it's like she
• 13:17
  Track 2: if she's not like she doesn't have to be an alien because like i don't work
• 13:23
  Track 2: in a corporate world some of us do but i know people who you know like work
• 13:28
  Track 2: in corporate world and that's like some of them talk like that in their real
• 13:32
  Track 2: lives and it's like that's you're not,
• 13:35
  Track 2: it's like this like whole other like alien language that it's like they've been
• 13:41
  Track 2: programmed it's like they don't
• 13:42
  Track 2: know how to communicate with normal people and it was it struck me so.
• 13:48
  Track 2: Powerfully the way they were talking past each other and it was like she's trying
• 13:54
  Track 2: to be like all like oh you know like understanding but it's comes across like
• 13:59
  Track 2: condescending and it's still like totally talking past and i want to i want
• 14:04
  Track 2: everyone i want to hear everybody else's like kind of takes on that yeah.
• 14:07
  Track 4: They're like from watching it the first time there's like one line in particular
• 14:11
  Track 4: that has stuck in my head all this time and that's her being like it's something
• 14:16
  Track 4: about, you know, his media diet not being good,
• 14:19
  Track 4: how he's in a media echo chamber that he only gets one side of the story. I'm like,
• 14:23
  Track 4: it like doesn't even cross her mind i mean and from
• 14:26
  Track 4: the viewer's perspective at least like she doesn't understand why he would believe
• 14:32
  Track 4: something like this like what has driven him to this point where this could
• 14:36
  Track 4: be a more preferable situation in his psychology than reality which is just
• 14:41
  Track 4: that society has screwed him over time and time again but.
• 14:45
  Track 2: Also like the whole like i want a dialogue can we can.
• 14:48
  Track 1: We dialogue here well fucking
• 14:51
  Track 1: says that they set it up so nicely with
• 14:55
  Track 1: it's gonna i think it's in that first 15 minutes when she's doing
• 14:58
  Track 1: the uh what is it like the dei
• 15:02
  Track 1: promo video thing at
• 15:05
  Track 1: the beginning and you know she's complaining about how
• 15:07
  Track 1: like oh we keep saying uh diversity over and over
• 15:10
  Track 1: and like no like it's the diversity video that we're
• 15:13
  Track 1: doing here and the way that she speaks in that is
• 15:16
  Track 1: truly as someone who works in not in pharmaceuticals but like understands the
• 15:21
  Track 1: corporate structure there are people legitimately who talk that way and it's
• 15:26
  Track 1: you know again like she's an alien to she's an alien without being an alien
• 15:32
  Track 1: i think is what you're also saying yeah.
• 15:33
  Track 3: Totally they're not like the rest of us not some like average working class
• 15:38
  Track 3: dudes because i mean even jesse plemons's character like later he's talking
• 15:42
  Track 3: about oh i went through like the whole like digestive track of politics like
• 15:47
  Track 3: all alt-right alt-light um,
• 15:52
  Track 3: what was it and then he says marxist yeah he
• 15:55
  Track 3: says marxist at the end but there was another one in between there leftist i
• 15:58
  Track 3: can't remember yeah he says leftist too yeah oh okay yeah
• 16:00
  Track 3: leftist marxist yeah but like even when he's
• 16:03
  Track 3: like before and then you jump back forward to when
• 16:06
  Track 3: he's like at his job packing like boxes and
• 16:10
  Track 3: he's sitting there with his co-worker like no you need to fucking report that that's a
• 16:13
  Track 3: fucking violation and it's like you know so like
• 16:16
  Track 3: he understands like some of it but
• 16:19
  Track 3: like yeah there's just such a major disconnect between the language
• 16:22
  Track 3: that she uses and the language that he uses because he's like just straight
• 16:25
  Track 3: up like saying the uh like corporation that he works for is a fucking bunch
• 16:30
  Track 3: of demons while she's like oh can we please may may we have a dialogue like
• 16:36
  Track 3: come on two different planets yeah.
• 16:39
  Track 2: It's it's and it's the the way
• 16:43
  Track 2: it's presented where she's like i'm trying
• 16:46
  Track 2: to be reasonable here with you because you've
• 16:49
  Track 2: committed violence against me but never acknowledging
• 16:52
  Track 2: the vast scope of violence
• 16:56
  Track 2: that her class and she in particular has committed as a capitalist as an executive
• 17:04
  Track 2: for that company where she centers herself as the victim it's like bitch you
• 17:09
  Track 2: have fucking like and again this is before you ever know that she's an alien,
• 17:13
  Track 2: which is a problem for me.
• 17:18
  Track 2: You and your class commit untold violence.
• 17:23
  Track 2: And now you are presenting yourself as the victim here. It's like, no.
• 17:29
  Track 4: I was actually kind of looking on Reddit for the more liberal understanding of this film.
• 17:35
  Track 4: But in doing that, I came across a Reddit comment that just makes so much sense to me.
• 17:40
  Track 4: That's like, she's destroyed Teddy's life, not as an alien, but in her capacity as a CEO.
• 17:46
  Track 4: And it's like she got bit by a dog that she made rabid, and then she's the one that put it down, right?
• 17:54
  Track 4: Um it just reminds me a lot how you know institutionalists talked about you
• 17:59
  Track 4: know like luigi mangioni or about how zionists talk about palestinians it's
• 18:04
  Track 4: like you push people to extreme actions and then pretend like you didn't do that to begin with.
• 18:10
  Track 1: Yeah they they create the circumstances that lead to their trying to break from
• 18:14
  Track 1: their prison and then you punish them and are like wait i wonder why they why
• 18:19
  Track 1: would they do that to us i can't figure it out it's that it's.
• 18:23
  Track 2: That that it's the meme but um what uh fuck with the community the meme with
• 18:29
  Track 2: the comedian snl it's like why would that why would they do that you know do they shoot them.
• 18:33
  Track 1: I mean as you mentioned before bill like the just simply that plemons just being
• 18:38
  Track 1: a really good in this film and he has so many i mean he does probably the majority
• 18:45
  Track 1: you know of the the speaking throughout it but all the time He's not allowed to talk. Right, right.
• 18:50
  Track 3: He prefers not to talk.
• 18:52
  Track 2: He prefers it. My colleague prefers not to speak.
• 18:57
  Track 1: But his entire, you know, everything he's teaching him about,
• 19:03
  Track 1: you know, like we need to inject our cell with this so we're chemically castrated.
• 19:07
  Track 1: And just his entire, you know, the hole he goes down before the movie even comes
• 19:14
  Track 1: in, you know, before where he's on screen. but within the movie itself he's
• 19:17
  Track 1: feels like he's gotten to the point where,
• 19:22
  Track 1: He has no other options left in some way, you know, maybe that's going to what
• 19:26
  Track 1: you're saying where this, this Reddit kind of comment of they've put them into
• 19:31
  Track 1: the point where they have no other good option.
• 19:33
  Track 1: And so his decision is to, you know, kidnap the CEO and convince her that convinced
• 19:39
  Track 1: she's an alien and to go to his ship and somehow save Earth.
• 19:42
  Track 1: But like, will that actually save Earth? You know.
• 19:45
  Track 2: Probably not that's it's i just want to talk about i want to talk about the
• 19:52
  Track 2: alien thing but like it's like there's more and like i don't want to just like
• 19:55
  Track 2: jump to that but it's it's so,
• 19:58
  Track 2: it is like to me like it undermines so much as a leftist it's just like as a
• 20:06
  Track 2: marxist it undermines so much of the movie in my opinion like that it actually bothers me.
• 20:14
  Track 4: No yeah i certainly agree to me it's kind
• 20:17
  Track 4: of it's like to me the analysis is kind of
• 20:20
  Track 4: ends up being the same regardless of the ending because the interesting part
• 20:23
  Track 4: is actually looking at teddy's psychology and how he ended up in a position
• 20:28
  Track 4: where you know thinking she was an alien was the reasonable thing for him but
• 20:32
  Track 4: yeah i kind of agree that i think the narrative would be a lot clearer if we
• 20:37
  Track 4: it just cut to black at that point.
• 20:39
  Track 2: I don't know it's the fact that like it's not
• 20:43
  Track 2: even that like like yeah his character like
• 20:45
  Track 2: yeah it makes sense but like the problem is that like this movie it doesn't
• 20:51
  Track 2: then relate to our reality that's the problem that when it is revealed that
• 20:56
  Track 2: she is an alien that they exist that they are doing these things what happens
• 21:01
  Track 2: is You take a story that is a potent,
• 21:05
  Track 2: powerful allegory about society, about alienation,
• 21:11
  Track 2: about the way in which the system manipulates people into grasping other things
• 21:19
  Track 2: instead of grappling with the reality of what is actually happening.
• 21:23
  Track 2: The actual villains in the case and then unifying with other people to take,
• 21:30
  Track 2: you know, to move against that.
• 21:32
  Track 2: And you, you destroy that. You, because it doesn't relate to the reality of the situation.
• 21:40
  Track 2: And in this case, this, this, it's not like.
• 21:45
  Track 2: It's not like, you know, a Michael Bay transformer movie where like that doesn't
• 21:48
  Track 2: really, that doesn't relate to our reality, but also gives a shit.
• 21:51
  Track 2: It's not telling any greater message, but this it's actually like, in my mind, it's like,
• 21:57
  Track 2: it's, it's similar to when, when we, when we, when we watched Eddington,
• 22:01
  Track 2: how it's like, you have the opportunity to tell like a meaningful, powerful message here.
• 22:08
  Track 2: And you in the end chose instead to either both sides it or be like actually
• 22:15
  Track 2: they're aliens and it's like like it's a cop-out to me that's what it was to me.
• 22:23
  Track 1: I mean do you think i think me or no suit awesome
• 22:25
  Track 1: like do you think that this is then is the like the reveal on the ending i know
• 22:30
  Track 1: we keep getting to the ending but like is that like become a liberalized version
• 22:34
  Track 1: of what like his does it take away a potential meaningful analysis and then
• 22:40
  Track 1: make it into like a liberal version i've been grappling with the same thing.
• 22:44
  Track 4: Yeah, I think I think Yorgos is trying to be faithful to the original.
• 22:50
  Track 4: And in that one, the CEO actually is the alien. So I kind of get it. But I don't know, I do.
• 22:58
  Track 4: In some ways, I think it, it undermines at least the mainstream liberal analysis,
• 23:03
  Track 4: which is about how this film is about how we don't know how to talk to each
• 23:06
  Track 4: other anymore. I'm like, oh, clearly there's, you know, some underlying class politics here.
• 23:12
  Track 4: I think it would certainly be a lot more straightforward if,
• 23:16
  Track 4: you know, she wasn't an alien.
• 23:17
  Track 4: But I still think there's some concept in like, you know, a CEO being essentially
• 23:24
  Track 4: an alien to the rest of humanity, right?
• 23:27
  Track 4: That to Teddy, there's really no difference between her as a CEO and her as
• 23:31
  Track 4: an alien, just the same way it is between workers and a CEO,
• 23:35
  Track 4: I guess. but i know i i still agree i think it would be stronger if she wasn't an alien.
• 23:39
  Track 3: I mean as a miserable marxist like
• 23:42
  Track 3: i can get wanting to stick to the fucking original no like
• 23:45
  Track 3: what fucking bill saying this could have been such a potent like allegory a
• 23:49
  Track 3: story of like fucking class conflict but then it like flattens out with the
• 23:54
  Track 3: oh it's just an alien aliens are the bad ones not ceos yeah that's pretty liberal
• 23:59
  Track 3: in my eyes but i'm also a miserable marxist so like i.
• 24:03
  Track 2: I it never even occurred, like, speaking as a miserable monster,
• 24:09
  Track 2: it never occurred to... I am...
• 24:14
  Track 2: Dawson, when you said it's about how like we can't communicate with each other anymore,
• 24:19
  Track 2: it never fucking occurred to me at all that that was the lesson this movie,
• 24:23
  Track 2: because in my mind, I'm like, the lesson this movie is that fucking capitalists
• 24:27
  Track 2: are actually fucking animals that need to be put down like dogs because they're going to kill us all.
• 24:31
  Track 2: Like, it never once occurred to me to humanize her in any way,
• 24:37
  Track 2: shape, or form, because she in no way, shape, or form in my eyes,
• 24:42
  Track 2: or anybody in her position, deserves that.
• 24:46
  Track 2: They are the villain.
• 24:49
  Track 2: Like, in the world, the world we live in, in reality, they are the villains.
• 24:55
  Track 2: And they, I don't want to, I'm not, I'm not here to humanize the people contributing
• 25:00
  Track 2: to colony collapse disorder.
• 25:02
  Track 2: Like I'm not here for that. That's it never even occurred to me.
• 25:07
  Track 2: So like, to me, I'm like, you're telling a story about class,
• 25:10
  Track 2: class conflict and then undermining that by being like, well,
• 25:14
  Track 2: actually, she's an animal.
• 25:15
  Track 3: Yeah. I didn't think that was supposed to be the lesson either. I'm right with Bill.
• 25:20
  Track 3: I'm just a miserable Marxist. Ruthlessly critique.
• 25:26
  Track 2: I thank you thank you warren i because dulce said that i'm like am i the dummy no we.
• 25:32
  Track 3: Just completely missed the point we're like these fucking piece of shit ceos
• 25:36
  Track 3: oh you want to kidnap one i support that brother.
• 25:38
  Track 2: Because they're aliens.
• 25:40
  Track 3: Critical support brother.
• 25:44
  Track 2: Like you got to where you needed to like we need to get you on the right path
• 25:48
  Track 2: to understanding why you need to do this but you got you got you got there you know yeah.
• 25:52
  Track 3: You got the right answer you You just need to show your work.
• 25:57
  Track 4: No there's uh if you go to there's a q a with you know all the main actors including
• 26:03
  Track 4: stavros who shout out stavros is a great socialist comedian but um even though
• 26:09
  Track 4: he has a horrible character in this um yeah he.
• 26:14
  Track 3: Played it so well though.
• 26:15
  Track 4: I thought so too i would when.
• 26:18
  Track 2: He casually admits to like basically sexually abusing i was like what the fuck
• 26:23
  Track 2: i just like so casually what What is happening here?
• 26:28
  Track 1: And then comes over and eats his cake. Yeah, sorry, you go ahead, Dawson.
• 26:31
  Track 4: No, I was just going to, yeah, if you go to this Q&A and you,
• 26:35
  Track 4: like, read the comments, people will be like, I'm shocked.
• 26:38
  Track 4: No one thought to ask about how, about the scene where she's tied up and how
• 26:44
  Track 4: that would make, like, women feel in today's culture.
• 26:47
  Track 4: I'm like, how do you watch the movie and be like, oh, the issue is that they
• 26:50
  Track 4: treated her badly as a woman and not as anything else?
• 26:55
  Track 4: I'm like, that wouldn't even be at my first 20 takeaways about the film,
• 26:59
  Track 4: even if I was trying to think of what a liberal would ask.
• 27:02
  Track 3: She's a girl boss. I'm still processing that they chemically castrated themselves
• 27:07
  Track 3: for this, and you're worried about what they're doing to a woman who's actually an alien?
• 27:12
  Track 1: I was thinking about this a minute ago. I wrote this down. One of you were talking.
• 27:16
  Track 1: I can't think of what... This is going a little bit towards the end,
• 27:20
  Track 1: but was the sort of alien's perception of humanity...
• 27:25
  Track 1: Just the human nature argument like was that simply kind of what they're going
• 27:30
  Track 1: for you know like oh humans we made these good we tried to make people or the
• 27:35
  Track 1: dinosaurs existed and then humans
• 27:37
  Track 1: came and they were terrible and evil and horrible and uh we can't fix them,
• 27:44
  Track 1: so you know human nature will always win out i mean it's a completely different topic but No.
• 27:50
  Track 3: That's, that's, if you're asking me and Bill, yeah, we missed the complete point
• 27:55
  Track 3: of the movie, but we got that point.
• 28:01
  Track 1: I'm all, I'm still, sorry, I'm still blown away that people watched it and are
• 28:05
  Track 1: like, their first thought is, oh, they're really being mean to Emma Stone.
• 28:08
  Track 1: You know, they really, the CEO that literally killed their mother or like almost,
• 28:13
  Track 1: literally she does end up killing the mother by being like, yeah,
• 28:15
  Track 1: you should just put Andy Freeze into her blood.
• 28:16
  Track 2: It's the same crowd that cries about the Romanov's children.
• 28:19
  Track 2: Shut the fuck up. I don't care.
• 28:22
  Track 3: They're the ones that support more female drone pilots. Yeah.
• 28:26
  Track 4: Yeah, I think what you're just saying, Evan, I think that was the full context
• 28:30
  Track 4: of that, you know, the Reddit quote that she got bit by a dog.
• 28:34
  Track 4: She made rabbit and she put it down. And I think it's not totally clear in the
• 28:38
  Track 4: film if her monologue before the alien reveal, if that monologue is actually true or not.
• 28:44
  Track 4: Right. So that makes it a little bit harder. But I think either way,
• 28:47
  Track 4: like if it's Emma Stone that like it's the president or whatever reports to
• 28:52
  Track 4: the rest of the aliens, it's like her experience with humanity is limited to
• 28:56
  Track 4: the people whose lives she fucking destroyed. And then they're angry about it.
• 29:00
  Track 4: Right. That's what her the core of her ultimate decision.
• 29:03
  Track 4: But I think in some sense it is human nature that, you know,
• 29:06
  Track 4: you put these people in brutal conditions and then they act out violently and
• 29:09
  Track 4: then you say it's humanity's fault.
• 29:11
  Track 1: And she herself does it. She becomes the CEO and participates in the same suffering
• 29:17
  Track 1: because it's not human nature, it's capitalism.
• 29:20
  Track 2: Right. But see, that's the thing that gets me about the movie.
• 29:23
  Track 2: That's what gets me about the movie, okay?
• 29:25
  Track 2: Because also throughout the movie, what is it? Like from the beginning and then
• 29:29
  Track 2: even when she goes back, it's like the, you can go home at 530.
• 29:33
  Track 2: If they have, if they're done with their jobs. And it's like,
• 29:37
  Track 2: you keep presenting this character as a car, as a person of that class who is
• 29:46
  Track 2: consistently exploiting her workers, showing faux concern,
• 29:52
  Track 2: showing faux humanity, a shallow depth of humanity towards them,
• 29:57
  Track 2: basically acting like this.
• 30:00
  Track 2: And then your message is we're not, we don't know how to communicate with each other.
• 30:05
  Track 2: You have presented me with a character who, even if she's not an alien,
• 30:11
  Track 2: is a fucking horrible person who does not care about other people who exploits
• 30:17
  Track 2: them and oppresses them.
• 30:18
  Track 2: And then your message for me is.
• 30:22
  Track 2: We should learn how to communicate better. She's a bad person.
• 30:27
  Track 2: Like, like that's what, that's what gets me.
• 30:29
  Track 2: It's like at that point, I, I'm forced to question the director at that point
• 30:34
  Track 2: and be like, you, you might be a bad person.
• 30:37
  Track 2: You might not actually understand basic ethics.
• 30:43
  Track 1: Bill, since you, I mean, Boris, has you seen the original version of this?
• 30:47
  Track 1: Is the messaging similar?
• 30:50
  Track 1: I mean, with obviously the ending is the same. but is it you is the same takeaway
• 30:55
  Track 1: like is he basically just remaking it almost i don't say shot for shot but just
• 31:00
  Track 1: taking the same structure and just basically the exact.
• 31:03
  Track 3: Same structure and um just.
• 31:05
  Track 1: A lot less.
• 31:06
  Track 3: Fun and less funny like there's a lot more like obvious humor not just dark
• 31:12
  Track 3: humor like black humor just thrown in um like there's over the top like screen
• 31:17
  Track 3: animations and some cgi and scenes and like it really plays in the fact that
• 31:22
  Track 3: this is a comedy and so this one's more.
• 31:24
  Track 1: Black comedy so i mean i mean i ask only because i mean you can still blame
• 31:31
  Track 1: the director i guess but if he's just trying to make his version maybe a slightly
• 31:35
  Track 1: funnier version of save the green planet then i don't know i don't really know
• 31:41
  Track 1: i'm not sure what i'm getting at.
• 31:42
  Track 3: I mean if you asked a couple miserable marxists he made a fucking worse version.
• 31:46
  Track 1: I mean having
• 31:50
  Track 1: seen pretty much yeah i mean having seen pretty much all of his films i think
• 31:55
  Track 1: there's only one i think maybe one i haven't seen they borderline like on the
• 31:59
  Track 1: absurd and they have such sometimes very good better messaging or like maybe
• 32:05
  Track 1: more obvious i don't know this one feels like it the more i'm thinking about
• 32:09
  Track 1: it it's like more muddled yeah.
• 32:10
  Track 4: That's kind of what i was gonna yeah i think that's similar to what I was going
• 32:14
  Track 4: to say in that it's such a clear Yorgos movie in that the message is so...
• 32:21
  Track 4: Unclear and like I've listened to like him
• 32:24
  Track 4: talking interviews and Q and A's and I don't think I don't think Yorgos intended
• 32:27
  Track 4: for the message to be you know like liberal
• 32:30
  Track 4: people don't know how to talk to each other I think that's how liberals with
• 32:33
  Track 4: like really bad media literacy interpreted but then at some point that also
• 32:36
  Track 4: still reflects on the director if you can't take anything else away from it
• 32:40
  Track 4: so I will say that but I don't think that's yeah necessarily what his intention
• 32:45
  Track 4: was I think there's supposed to be something with class there I just don't know
• 32:48
  Track 4: if it was executed it very well it's.
• 32:49
  Track 2: The same again not to go back to like not to like
• 32:52
  Track 2: harp on like eddington but it's the same thing it's like if you
• 32:55
  Track 2: if you if you can't definitively come
• 32:58
  Track 2: if you are unwilling to definitively come out against fascism you are for fascism
• 33:07
  Track 2: and if you if you put out a movie in which you present a muddled concept of
• 33:13
  Track 2: class consciousness and you kind of paint it as it Like, and at the end it's like.
• 33:18
  Track 2: Actually, you know, because the fact of the matter is, is that in reality,
• 33:24
  Track 2: the world we live in as Marxists, as leftists,
• 33:28
  Track 2: how we can all, how many times have we started talking to somebody,
• 33:33
  Track 2: a stranger and we talk about, and they go, the world is in a bad state.
• 33:37
  Track 2: Yeah. The world's in a bad state. And they go, oh, you know, and you go like, okay.
• 33:41
  Track 2: And they started like, oh yeah, you know, people are taking advantage of.
• 33:44
  Track 2: Yep. And you know, there's criminals in charge. Yep. and then
• 33:47
  Track 2: and you think like oh you know it's like oh you know the corporations
• 33:50
  Track 2: and blah blah blah and you're like okay all right you think
• 33:53
  Track 2: they're on you know and then they're like you know it's the jews and
• 33:56
  Track 2: it's like motherfucker or it's like uh you know it's the it's the reptilians
• 33:59
  Track 2: it's like god damn it it's like we live in a world where in reality that is
• 34:05
  Track 2: the fucking path that like the system deviates people into because those people
• 34:10
  Track 2: are easily controlled like once you when you are on that path,
• 34:15
  Track 2: you're easily controlled, you're easily distracted, and you,
• 34:18
  Track 2: don't like you know you don't build unity you don't have political power and
• 34:23
  Track 2: so when you make a movie that says wow actually he's right they're intramanets it's like.
• 34:35
  Track 3: Yeah it just falls so flat like god you could have made something so good out
• 34:38
  Track 3: of this but like i get wanting to stick to the original but like i'm a marxist
• 34:44
  Track 3: first baby like i need i need my class consciousness i need my class conflict
• 34:48
  Track 3: i need some good lessons that's what i like.
• 34:50
  Track 2: Yeah it undermines i mean and the shame is that like the performances are so emma stone has you did.
• 35:01
  Track 3: The cinematography is great too on top of it.
• 35:03
  Track 2: Emma stone has you like like you are questioning the entire like is she an alien
• 35:11
  Track 2: even when she comes out of the room and she goes how many of,
• 35:16
  Track 2: I'm like, I'm still not salt. I still don't know.
• 35:20
  Track 3: Is she so well done?
• 35:21
  Track 2: Is she? And it's like, what's the play? Like, cause you could see it from so many angles.
• 35:27
  Track 2: And it's like, what's her play? Is she, you know, like, it's like,
• 35:31
  Track 2: I don't, I feel bad criticism.
• 35:33
  Track 2: Like, I feel bad saying these negative things because like as a piece of work,
• 35:38
  Track 2: as a piece of art, fucking great.
• 35:42
  Track 3: Oh, such a good movie. That's why I've seen it three times now,
• 35:46
  Track 3: but as a Marxist, and that's why I'm on this podcast.
• 35:50
  Track 3: Uh, yeah, no, we could have used some more.
• 35:53
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 35:53
  Track 4: I think what's almost especially sad is that despite our criticisms of your
• 35:59
  Track 4: ghost and the execution is like underneath all of that,
• 36:02
  Track 4: like in the actual relationship between Teddy and Michelle is like that honestly
• 36:11
  Track 4: might be the biggest, like big movie that shows the most class consciousness
• 36:15
  Track 4: consciousness up until that point.
• 36:17
  Track 4: Right in especially like trying to understand why teddy believes these things
• 36:22
  Track 4: and you know like i don't think we've talked about it yet but like his situation
• 36:27
  Track 4: is that like his mom got addicted to pain meds and then the ceo's company gave her like a,
• 36:35
  Track 4: research treatment for opiate addiction
• 36:38
  Track 4: and it put her in a permanent coma and then
• 36:40
  Track 4: i think there was something in the line about like the fact in the film about
• 36:43
  Track 4: the factory closing too and like a fire burning something
• 36:46
  Track 4: down so basically his entire life has been destroyed
• 36:49
  Track 4: and it's just him and his his cousin his mom's
• 36:52
  Track 4: in the hospital and they only gave him like not a lot of money for for his mom
• 36:57
  Track 4: so like those are the reasons like this is his suffering that he's trying to
• 37:02
  Track 4: rationalize and explain in any way other than that this is just what we've accepted
• 37:07
  Track 4: as necessary for capital accumulation to continue yeah.
• 37:11
  Track 2: And and the fact of the matter is that like that's real what that happened in
• 37:16
  Track 2: real life the sacklers did that and like they walked away they are still billionaires Like to get to,
• 37:27
  Track 2: to take a thing that is so relevant to real life people.
• 37:32
  Track 2: And then in the end be like, actually, she's an alien.
• 37:37
  Track 2: He actually was right. She's an alien.
• 37:40
  Track 2: And it's not capitalists and it's not corporations and it's not capitalism doing
• 37:44
  Track 2: this. It's, it's the aliens.
• 37:46
  Track 2: If we just got rid of those pesky aliens and it's like.
• 37:49
  Track 3: To me, that like conspiracy theorists are right.
• 37:53
  Track 2: Yeah. like to me like that's almost like that's fucked up because like,
• 37:59
  Track 2: hundreds like thousands of people's lives in reality have been destroyed with
• 38:06
  Track 2: that very thing in by this very system not not a metaphorically no they chose
• 38:14
  Track 2: opiate pain pills like and.
• 38:17
  Track 1: And teddy then still is working for
• 38:20
  Track 1: the same corporation for his livelihood when they should
• 38:23
  Track 1: essentially be paying and then you know later she's trying
• 38:26
  Track 1: to bribe him like oh like you know what do you we should have given you more
• 38:29
  Track 1: money that wouldn't bring his mom back that wouldn't bring back the hundreds
• 38:34
  Track 1: of other thousands millions of other victims of you know the opioid you know
• 38:40
  Track 1: Sackler family and all that it's just like they man yeah and the mother thing is just,
• 38:47
  Track 1: it's so sad because yeah plus the kid plus he was you know sexually abused by
• 38:52
  Track 1: the babysitter and now he's a cop which you could add on to the fact like that's that tracks and.
• 38:57
  Track 3: Then he uses bees to kill the cop well he uses a shovel.
• 39:01
  Track 2: To kill the cop.
• 39:02
  Track 3: It's a bit of both.
• 39:03
  Track 1: The bees just incapacitated whatever okay.
• 39:06
  Track 2: I did think it was interesting to have alicia silverstone be the mother and
• 39:12
  Track 2: that whole sequence where she's like talking about all that stuff because alicia
• 39:15
  Track 2: silverstone is a crazy crunchy hippie,
• 39:21
  Track 2: like alternative medicine kind of like i thought it was kind of like a funny choice.
• 39:26
  Track 1: Is she anti-vax that kind of thing too uh yeah wow,
• 39:33
  Track 1: I didn't remember that or didn't.
• 39:37
  Track 2: Okay.
• 39:37
  Track 4: I had something, something I was just thinking about in preparing my notes and
• 39:42
  Track 4: rewatching is, you know, in a world where there were even like,
• 39:47
  Track 4: not even like in a Marxist world, just like in a social democratic world.
• 39:52
  Track 4: It's like there would be a world where there were appropriate guardrails in
• 39:56
  Track 4: Teddy's mom being treated.
• 39:59
  Track 4: And even if there was some accident, his mom would be taken care of.
• 40:03
  Track 4: And he would have never had any psychological need to develop these conspiracies
• 40:08
  Track 4: in the first place, right?
• 40:10
  Track 4: Even if it was true, it wouldn't matter because he'd be comfortable enough that
• 40:13
  Track 4: he wouldn't need to look for answers.
• 40:16
  Track 4: I thought that was interesting. And I think that's just something that,
• 40:19
  Track 4: you know, the common, the liberal analyses in this film just don't really see,
• 40:24
  Track 4: I don't think, is, you know, if the ending was the exact same,
• 40:29
  Track 4: except it was that she wasn't an alien.
• 40:31
  Track 4: Like that would be you know even further to be you know misunderstood i guess
• 40:36
  Track 4: like my point is if there was going to be a marx ascending there needed to be
• 40:39
  Track 4: more it couldn't have just been oh yeah teddy was actually wrong and he killed
• 40:43
  Track 4: a bunch of people for no reason or whatever then it just it invalidates his whole experience i.
• 40:48
  Track 3: Mean it could be better if it could be resolved by all the people he killed prior were also CEOs.
• 40:56
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 41:00
  Track 3: Critical support for Teddy.
• 41:02
  Track 2: I did not expect there to be a room full of sports.
• 41:07
  Track 3: Oh, such a good twist.
• 41:09
  Track 1: Do we think that the other people he's killed were also maybe less powerful
• 41:13
  Track 1: than the CEO, but like other executives or just like picking,
• 41:16
  Track 1: picking off random people?
• 41:17
  Track 3: I'm pretty sure it was just random.
• 41:19
  Track 2: It was random.
• 41:20
  Track 1: Random people. Yeah.
• 41:21
  Track 2: Well, how many, do you remember how many that they said there was altogether
• 41:24
  Track 2: that he had was like 11 or something? I feel like some.
• 41:28
  Track 4: 11 sounds familiar to me. And I think you said two were on Bramadans or something.
• 41:32
  Track 2: If he was killing 11 CEOs, I feel like it would be in the news.
• 41:38
  Track 2: I feel like they would have been mentioned at some point.
• 41:41
  Track 1: So he's just a serial killer is what you're telling me.
• 41:44
  Track 2: Yeah. Yeah, just a serial killer. They're part of the bill.
• 41:48
  Track 3: He happened to get right on three.
• 41:49
  Track 2: He got right on three.
• 41:50
  Track 3: Three. Well, like only one CEO though.
• 41:53
  Track 2: Now.
• 41:53
  Track 3: The Marxist in me says one.
• 41:55
  Track 2: Did anybody else notice? See, and this is the thing.
• 42:00
  Track 2: The validation of conspiracy theory goes deep in this movie.
• 42:05
  Track 2: Because the earth is a flat earth it is like repeatedly shown and it is clear
• 42:13
  Track 2: like they made it it's a flat earth like it is the validation of conspiracy
• 42:17
  Track 2: theories like goes hard and it's like again like you're just undermining things.
• 42:23
  Track 1: So by making him but by making
• 42:26
  Track 1: him like an actual conspiracy theorist the idea
• 42:29
  Track 1: would be like the the liberal or like maybe the take is
• 42:32
  Track 1: like oh well if we could just convince these conspiracy
• 42:35
  Track 1: nuts to stop being like that you
• 42:38
  Track 1: know just we can reason with you and then talk and then we could just create
• 42:43
  Track 1: like comfortable capitalism or you know the nordic model will all be fine but
• 42:49
  Track 1: instead they're leaning heavily into it and in some ways it's sort of like propping
• 42:53
  Track 1: up the idea of conspiracy theories inadvertently yeah.
• 42:57
  Track 4: I mean and i think that's true and i think that's what,
• 43:02
  Track 4: a lot of the liberal analyses that are critical, you know, point to it being
• 43:06
  Track 4: like, it's like validating.
• 43:07
  Track 4: But I mean, to some extent, like the idea that we are ran by wealthy elites
• 43:15
  Track 4: who go to secret parties together on an island, like that was also a conspiracy theory.
• 43:21
  Track 4: And I don't know, I think it's taking the flat earth one.
• 43:24
  Track 4: I thought it was interesting picking that because it's like the one that like
• 43:28
  Track 4: all of the audience or 99% is going to know is like, okay, like we have tangible proof.
• 43:33
  Track 4: The world isn't flat. I think there's good reason to question why.
• 43:37
  Track 2: Um, but then, but then we go back to the point that like, like when you,
• 43:42
  Track 2: like how you mentioned, like, you know, like how the, the world is run by like,
• 43:46
  Track 2: you know, capital slaves who go on, like go to an island and like,
• 43:48
  Track 2: you know, rape children and eat babies,
• 43:51
  Track 2: um, has proven to be true.
• 43:54
  Track 2: What we return to is the fact that the term conspiracy,
• 43:57
  Track 2: conspiracy theorist was created and weaponized by the CIA in response to people
• 44:05
  Track 2: accurately pointing out the inconsistencies of the claims made by the government
• 44:12
  Track 2: in response to the JFK assassination.
• 44:14
  Track 2: And the fact of the matter is, is that conspiracy theorist is often used as a weapon
• 44:19
  Track 2: that sense and like the notion that
• 44:23
  Track 2: capitalist elites go to like that
• 44:26
  Track 2: is not in any way shape or form a like far-fetched like people were called conspiracy
• 44:34
  Track 2: theorists for saying that despite the fact that there there was boatloads of
• 44:39
  Track 2: evidence for fucking years like it was the unlike flat earth theory.
• 44:46
  Track 2: Nobody came up with that out of nowhere.
• 44:49
  Track 2: Like, like,
• 44:52
  Track 2: Like Pizzagate came out of nowhere, but like the larger thing did not come out of nowhere.
• 44:58
  Track 3: No, not at all. And I mean, fuck, conspiracy is a crime that you can be convicted
• 45:02
  Track 3: of. Like, why are we going to act like conspiracies don't actually happen?
• 45:06
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 45:07
  Track 1: I pulled like a book off my shelf because I thought, I remember,
• 45:09
  Track 1: I thought it was in a Vijay Prashad book, but maybe it's not.
• 45:12
  Track 1: Maybe it's a Perendi book where he's, it's exactly what you're talking about.
• 45:14
  Track 2: It's Perendi.
• 45:15
  Track 1: Okay. I figured, I figured. Maybe it's just a Blackfriars and Red.
• 45:19
  Track 3: Miserable Marxist got you.
• 45:20
  Track 1: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:20
  Track 4: So you think of inventing reality it could be.
• 45:24
  Track 2: It's actually it's from a speech it's actually from a speech specifically um
• 45:29
  Track 2: i had it someplace but yeah it's from a speech where he talks about well he
• 45:34
  Track 2: talks about speech it's it's not a yellow speech but yes it's it's not no i
• 45:39
  Track 2: don't think i i'm almost positive it's not it's not the yellow speech i.
• 45:43
  Track 3: Could swear there's something about in the yellow speech because i know he's
• 45:46
  Track 3: talking about clinton's being happy and stuff like that And it's like,
• 45:49
  Track 3: oh, whoa, finally, at last.
• 45:51
  Track 1: Well, Bill, if you can find it, I'll throw it in the...
• 45:57
  Track 1: Conspiracy theory is a term that's used whenever anybody ascribes conscious
• 46:05
  Track 1: intent to people with power.
• 46:08
  Track 1: So I can say to you that school teachers are concerned about their salaries
• 46:14
  Track 1: and they're organizing and they're threatening a strike and they're pressuring.
• 46:18
  Track 1: I can say to you that farmers are doing this and looking for subsidies and facing certain policies.
• 46:25
  Track 1: But the minute I say to you that the very people at the top,
• 46:29
  Track 1: the plutocracy, the very rich and powerful, the ones who own most of America,
• 46:34
  Track 1: that they are consciously pursuing power and wealth.
• 46:38
  Track 1: Someone will come along and say, what do you have, a conspiracy theory?
• 46:41
  Track 1: Or they'll say, oh, you're cynical or you're paranoid.
• 46:44
  Track 1: Their view is that stuff just happens. Things just happen, unintended consequences,
• 46:49
  Track 1: or our leaders are stupid and they're jerks or they're confused and they don't know any better.
• 46:57
  Track 1: And of course, the critic knows much better than everybody.
• 47:01
  Track 1: This is maybe not related to it, but even, I think, Bill, you said a couple
• 47:06
  Track 1: times, where they constantly talk about the people he's killed and some of them are dromedans.
• 47:11
  Track 1: Even to the point where they go to Michelle Emerson's office and she's typing
• 47:16
  Track 1: on the calculator and he goes into the closet, even at that moment,
• 47:20
  Track 1: he's just standing there with some shoes and shit on the floor or whatever.
• 47:23
  Track 1: I was convinced at that point, she's going to do something to him.
• 47:27
  Track 1: Nothing's going to happen. He's going to be pissed. and then he accidentally
• 47:31
  Track 1: blows himself up and he's like if he hadn't done that he actually would have
• 47:34
  Track 1: would they have taken him do you think like do you think he was going to get
• 47:37
  Track 1: to go to the ship like no they weren't going to let him right.
• 47:41
  Track 3: I don't think so because like on my third rewatch that's something I paid a
• 47:45
  Track 3: lot of attention to was there's two explosions in that closet.
• 47:50
  Track 1: Oh okay I did.
• 47:52
  Track 3: Not so like a small minor one and then fucking Teddy's vest going off so I'm
• 47:58
  Track 3: pretty sure I'm of the assumption She put in like the backup alarm code password
• 48:04
  Track 3: for her fucking teleporter,
• 48:06
  Track 3: blew him up, which set off his explosives.
• 48:09
  Track 3: And then when she goes back later, she enters the proper code.
• 48:13
  Track 2: Okay.
• 48:14
  Track 1: Oh man. I did not catch that.
• 48:16
  Track 3: Yeah. There's two explosions. Yeah.
• 48:19
  Track 1: What do you make then of the, I mean, like we, so we know she's an alien.
• 48:24
  Track 1: We like, we've gone past that.
• 48:25
  Track 1: She goes back to her ship and they basically have decided to just let humanity die.
• 48:34
  Track 1: Humans, like all the animals are going to, I guess, eat all the dead humans.
• 48:38
  Track 2: I was genuinely, I was too. I thought when I thought they were like,
• 48:43
  Track 2: all the, yeah, I was like, so wait, are they just going to kill?
• 48:47
  Track 2: Like all these like poor animals like they're like they didn't do anything and
• 48:51
  Track 2: then it was just humans i was like i mean i don't like that but you know these animals okay they.
• 48:58
  Track 1: Should have at least left like the animals out of the zoo first or something
• 49:00
  Track 1: you know like the fucking zebras and.
• 49:03
  Track 2: Behind the same time like it comes down to the same it comes down to the same liberal analysis.
• 49:11
  Track 2: It's like there are entire indigenous populations that have like they,
• 49:19
  Track 2: like you're like, you have painted the entire human species with one bro.
• 49:24
  Track 2: And like, we know for a fact, like, and it's like,
• 49:31
  Track 2: God, the ending really pisses me off. What I found interesting about the presentation
• 49:39
  Track 2: of the aliens, though, is it felt microscopic, not macroscopic.
• 49:46
  Track 2: It felt almost cellular. like
• 49:49
  Track 2: the way that the ship looked like
• 49:53
  Track 2: a virus when they when she like emerges she like is coming through like what
• 50:00
  Track 2: looks like like almost like amniotic like fluid um it actually reminded me of
• 50:05
  Track 2: like the goop and like poltergeist um like the ectoplasm and poltergeist um but it felt,
• 50:13
  Track 2: it didn't feel you know like extraterrestrial it felt like internal it was like
• 50:20
  Track 2: you know it was an interesting choice I thought because it looked so like it
• 50:25
  Track 2: looked a viral almost which I thought was interesting.
• 50:31
  Track 3: I like the big fluffy outfits I like those a lot.
• 50:36
  Track 2: Yeah they looked very comfy yeah.
• 50:38
  Track 1: I thought you were going to say that somehow they were being presented as some kind of like,
• 50:48
  Track 1: indigenous species and that species indigenous yeah i guess species are they're
• 50:52
  Track 1: not from they're not human in some way from wherever they're from somehow and
• 50:58
  Track 1: you know but they're i don't know that doesn't really make a lot of sense.
• 51:03
  Track 2: I don't know i just thought it was it was a very interesting design choice and
• 51:07
  Track 2: i don't know if there was like a deeper meaning to it that i yeah i know i.
• 51:12
  Track 1: Mean as you said i think you said more.
• 51:13
  Track 2: The cinematography in.
• 51:14
  Track 1: This is great yeah i don't know yeah cinematography was incredible like i really
• 51:18
  Track 1: enjoyed the cinematography in this.
• 51:20
  Track 4: No i i didn't have much many thoughts on that i think both times i watched i
• 51:26
  Track 4: think i was so pissed off i maybe wasn't paying as close at that point.
• 51:31
  Track 2: See i gotta be honest when when like,
• 51:38
  Track 2: i thought like even like at the beginning i did not i didn't know i didn't i
• 51:44
  Track 2: didn't i didn't expect you to be a hundred like basically like on the same page
• 51:47
  Track 2: as like like me with this ending i also didn't expect war to be on considering
• 51:52
  Track 2: that he's watched it three times like,
• 51:56
  Track 2: i mean when a movie makes me this mad i don't usually watch it more than once.
• 52:02
  Track 1: I mean i think well i watched it by myself.
• 52:04
  Track 3: Had to watch it with joy and then re-watched it.
• 52:08
  Track 1: I still Even for its flawed ending and some of the muddle politics,
• 52:13
  Track 1: it's still an enjoyable movie, which is kind of confounding to me.
• 52:21
  Track 1: I might watch it again. Not tomorrow, but I'll probably watch it again at some point.
• 52:24
  Track 3: Yeah, I hate the ending, but the acting is fucking top-notch.
• 52:29
  Track 3: The cinematography is incredible.
• 52:31
  Track 3: I haven't regretted watching it, re-watching it.
• 52:36
  Track 3: As much as I hate the ending.
• 52:38
  Track 2: I just didn't expect it, that's all. I was kind of surprised.
• 52:41
  Track 2: I was surprised I wasn't the lone voice of like, what the fuck?
• 52:49
  Track 3: We deserve more.
• 52:52
  Track 4: I think I've wanted to watch it again, specifically to try to make sense of what this film is.
• 53:00
  Track 2: I get that.
• 53:01
  Track 4: I think the only way you can do that is to look at
• 53:04
  Track 4: yargos is trying to make some abstracted point
• 53:07
  Track 4: about an allegory where the aliens in this case really are the capitalists who
• 53:12
  Track 4: like think of humans the working class as completely expendable and like not
• 53:19
  Track 4: of any inherent value on their own only as a tool but like outside of that it's
• 53:25
  Track 4: like i don't know if there's a way to make sense of it.
• 53:27
  Track 2: Like i love that analysis like i
• 53:29
  Track 2: think that's a great thing the problem is contextually
• 53:34
  Track 2: in our world once you
• 53:37
  Track 2: like once you pay attention to like once you put that in the context of reality
• 53:44
  Track 2: it falls apart that's the problem like because like you're like that it could
• 53:51
  Track 2: be read that way until you think about like,
• 53:56
  Track 2: The conversations for the past, you know, since like, especially they,
• 54:02
  Track 2: you know, they became like prevalent, you know, with like, you know, um,
• 54:06
  Track 2: the first Trump election, you know, like the conversations around echo chambers
• 54:10
  Track 2: and conspiracy and all that stuff.
• 54:13
  Track 2: Like once you put it in context of that, you know, you know what,
• 54:17
  Track 2: if this movie had been made 20 years ago, that allegory would work,
• 54:24
  Track 2: it would work perfectly.
• 54:24
  Track 2: Like, maybe not perfectly, but it would work better.
• 54:29
  Track 2: It's the opposite of Eddington.
• 54:31
  Track 2: Eddington is like 20 years before its time.
• 54:33
  Track 1: I mean, what I want to do now is watch the, as you did, or watch the original film that it's based on,
• 54:40
  Track 1: just because now I need to just kind of understand if I'll feel the same exact
• 54:45
  Track 1: way watching it, the same, you know,
• 54:49
  Track 1: satisfaction and then some dissatisfaction at the end.
• 54:51
  Track 3: Yeah, no, it's a bit of the same in that regard, but it's just more fun.
• 54:58
  Track 3: Like, it's just a fun movie compared to, like, this has incredible acting.
• 55:04
  Track 3: It's a great cinematography. The original is just fun.
• 55:08
  Track 2: Did you see the original, the South Korean one as well, Dawson?
• 55:11
  Track 4: No, I read about it after I watched it, trying to kind of piece everything together
• 55:15
  Track 4: and what exactly was changed. So, no, I haven't actually seen it.
• 55:19
  Track 2: I thought you'd said it. I just wanted to, you know, make sure that we weren't,
• 55:22
  Track 2: like, missing out on, like, you know, your, like, you know, retrospective of
• 55:27
  Track 2: that as well. That's all.
• 55:28
  Track 1: I don't know. It's weird. There's films that I've really enjoyed where I just
• 55:32
  Track 1: probably would never watch it ever again. And not for any bad reason,
• 55:36
  Track 1: just like, yeah, like I saw it and like that was it.
• 55:38
  Track 1: Whereas this one, I feel like I'm going to still be thinking about it and then
• 55:42
  Track 1: be like, well, maybe in six months I'll watch it again. Or maybe I'll watch
• 55:45
  Track 1: it in context with some of the other, a couple, I think I actually,
• 55:48
  Track 1: there's two Yorgos films that I haven't seen.
• 55:50
  Track 1: I never saw Kind of Kindness and I don't think I've seen Dogtooth.
• 55:54
  Track 1: I think that's like his first one.
• 55:56
  Track 2: Definitely like, it's an insidious movie. It worms its way in your brain.
• 56:02
  Track 2: Definitely. Like a little chestburster.
• 56:05
  Track 1: That would be much more painful and you would die.
• 56:08
  Track 2: Yeah.
• 56:09
  Track 1: I feel like all of us, I mean, maybe I won't speak for everyone,
• 56:12
  Track 1: but would you tell, I guess at the beginning, Bill, you were like,
• 56:15
  Track 1: everyone should stop and go watch it because you wouldn't want to be spoiled.
• 56:18
  Track 1: You wouldn't want to know the ending.
• 56:19
  Track 1: But would everyone here still tell someone who made it through the whole thing and didn't watch it?
• 56:24
  Track 1: Would you still recommend it to people? I mean, maybe not people who are listening,
• 56:28
  Track 1: I guess, because probably you've watched it.
• 56:30
  Track 1: Like to a stranger, to a friend, to a coworker, would you be like,
• 56:33
  Track 1: yeah, you should watch Bagonia?
• 56:35
  Track 2: I, yes, because I think that this is the kind of movie that,
• 56:40
  Track 2: as a Marxist, like, this is a great fucking movie to, like, have a jump off our conversation.
• 56:47
  Track 2: Like, this is, you know, definitely.
• 56:50
  Track 1: I figured you would say that.
• 56:51
  Track 3: It's also just a good fucking movie, so, like, yeah. Yeah.
• 56:56
  Track 3: And it's a weird one, so if you know they can't handle weird movies,
• 57:00
  Track 3: oh, fucking subject them to this one.
• 57:04
  Track 4: Yeah, it's a little bit easier than trying to get somebody to watch,
• 57:08
  Track 4: I don't know, like American Psycho.
• 57:12
  Track 4: It's a little bit easier to swallow, I think, in that there's obviously some
• 57:17
  Track 4: social commentary underneath it all.
• 57:20
  Track 4: Just people interpret it differently, versus I think it's totally possible for
• 57:24
  Track 4: a normie to watch American Psycho,
• 57:26
  Track 4: and be like no it's actually about how patrick bateman's awesome but.
• 57:29
  Track 2: That's totally true uh it's
• 57:32
  Track 2: funny you mention american psycho dawson because today uh
• 57:35
  Track 2: in my travels while working i saw somebody with a giant patrick bateman decal
• 57:43
  Track 2: on the back of their truck it was his face like with the mouth wide open and
• 57:48
  Track 2: the blood on it uh and he was like parked at like a gym um so,
• 57:56
  Track 2: Listen, I'm not trying to make assumptions about this person.
• 58:00
  Track 2: I am making assumptions about this person that they did not understand that movie.
• 58:05
  Track 2: And they were in the dude bro gym doing dude bro things thinking Patrick Bateman is awesome.
• 58:15
  Track 1: It's i mean that movie is so that like fight club you know like the joker those
• 58:22
  Track 1: movies all fit into that uh like box of people who just i saw.
• 58:26
  Track 2: That i saw that decal i was just like what the fuck am i am i seeing what i think i'm seeing.
• 58:33
  Track 1: You should have if you saw him come out you'd be like did you know that movie
• 58:35
  Track 1: was directed by a woman in.
• 58:39
  Track 2: A town in jersey known for its racism.
• 58:41
  Track 1: That specific town or or new jersey Yeah.
• 58:45
  Track 2: No, that specific town. No, the specific town is, like, known for being super racist.
• 58:50
  Track 1: Awesome. Well, Dawson, thank you for pitching this movie to do.
• 58:55
  Track 1: I think it was very interesting, and honestly, I was thinking about this.
• 59:00
  Track 1: Like, you could probably, you know, wipe our men in black, wipe our memories,
• 59:06
  Track 1: and then have the conversation again.
• 59:07
  Track 1: And I feel like you could go like in a bunch of different directions because
• 59:11
  Track 1: it's just a really makes you think a lots of, I mean, maybe our Marxist brain
• 59:16
  Track 1: would still turn back on and could have those same ideas.
• 59:18
  Track 2: But Dawson, the next time you watch a movie, Dawson, that has the same reaction,
• 59:24
  Track 2: I want you to immediately contact us.
• 59:26
  Track 4: Okay, I will. Thanks for having me. Yeah, I 100% will.
• 59:29
  Track 2: The next time you watch a movie or you're like, God, yeah, no, you email us.
• 59:35
  Track 3: Make it happen.
• 59:37
  Track 1: Yeah, awesome. Well, Dawson, again, thank you for coming on Left of the Projector,
• 59:43
  Track 1: and we will catch everyone next time.