Latest / The SmallBizChat with Melinda Emerson / On Her Own Ground: The Life and Times of Madame C. J. Walker with A’Lelia Bundles

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On Her Own Ground: The Life and Times of Madame C. J. Walker with A’Lelia Bundles · The SmallBizChat with Melinda Emerson

• 0:00
  3, 10, 1, 0, ignition, liftoff,
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  Ending small business failure.
• 0:11
  Welcome to the Small Biz Chat podcast with a number 1 small business expert Melinda Emerson.
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  Bolinda's goal is to end small business failure, and she'll give you the information
• 0:21
  you need to succeed and live the life you've dream of.
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  Now here's the small Biz lady herself.
• 0:29
  Melinda Everson.
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  Hi.
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  This is Melinda Everson, the small Biz lady, and you're listening to the small binge chat
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  podcast.
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  I am so excited to have my guest today.
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  She is an old friend and mentor, and I'm so thrilled that she's here with us.
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  She is author and journalist, Alya Bundles.
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  She writes biographies about the amazing women in her family, including entrepreneur Mado CJ
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  Walker, and Harlem Renaissance icon, Alya Walker.
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  She is the author of the New York Times' notable book own her own ground, the life and
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  times of Madame CJ Walker, and it was the inspiration for self made the fictionalized
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  four part series starring Oscar winner Tavia Spencer that recently premiered on Netflix.
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  She's currently working on her 5th book, The Joy Goddess of Harlem, Alya Walker, who, by the
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  way, is her great great grandmother, excuse me, her great grandmother, and she was an icon in
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  the Harlem renaissance And she is gonna talk about how who she party with, her arts
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  patronists, and her travels that really help define the Harlem Renaissance era.
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  Now, you know, in her spare time, that's where she's been doing.
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  But prior to that, she had a 30 year career as an executive and Emmy award winning producer
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  with ABC and NBC News, And she is the brand historian for the Madame CJ Walker line of hair
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  care products inspired by Madame CJ Walker created by Sundal Brands.
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  And she also is a graduate of Harvard and the Columbia University graduate school of
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  journalism, and I could laud her accomplishments all day, but I will not do that
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  because I want you guys to hear her.
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  She's such an amazing storyteller, and I'm so excited that she's here with us.
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  To talk entrepreneurship from her about her great great grandmother, madame CJ Walker.
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  So, Aliyah, welcome to small biz chat.
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  Melinda, it is so good to be with you and to realize that we've known each other for almost
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  30 years.
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  So this
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  I met you when I was 12, tell them
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  the truth.
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  When you were 12, when you were 12, and I'm just, I'm a big fan.
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  I'm a fan girl for you, and all the things that you're doing.
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  So thank you for what you're doing.
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  Well, listen.
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  I I am so excited to talk to you because you know, you wrote the definitive biography of
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  beauty pioneer, madame CJ Walker, who was the 1st woman, white or black, right, to become a
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  millionaire in the United States.
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  What an incredible legacy.
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  And she's your great grandmother.
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  Great great grandmother.
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  Right?
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  Yeah.
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  So, you know, that the Guinness Book of World Records makes that claim, and so I'm, like,
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  fine that they make that claim.
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  But for me, it really is a family story, but it's all of the story of the journey of African
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  Americans in the United States and women becoming entrepreneurs.
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  So I grew up in a household where my mother was vice president of the madam CJ Walker
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  Manufacturing company, and I would go with her to her office.
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  And I saw a woman in business from a very early time in my life and then to really delve into
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  the history of Madam Walker and see the struggles that she had, how she developed a
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  business, but I think what is most important for me is how she empowers other women and help
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  them become economically independent.
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  So let's talk about that.
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  So Madam CJ Walker started her company in 1906.
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  Right?
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  Mhmm.
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  So now life for African Americans, in the United States in the early 1900 was that of
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  there certainly were some that at that point we're getting educated through some of the
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  historically black colleges and things like that.
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  But by and large, in the early 1900, the average life of an African American was what?
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  That of a washer woman, maybe a teacher, you know, having children being somebody's wife, I
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  mean, What were what were the options for the average African American persons to
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  particularly women at that time?
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  So, yeah, just to just put it in perspective, this is the 1st generation of people born after
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  the end of the civil war.
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  So there were still people alive who had been enslaved and their children were creating this
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  next generation of black communities, entrepreneurs, some getting educated but 90% of
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  African Americans still lived in the south.
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  So a lot of people were still working on farms and and what was still really a form of slavery
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  as sharecroppers.
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  When they came to the cities, most were employed as maids and laundresses and cooks.
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  A very small group actually were owning their own businesses and going to college, but those
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  people were creating these communities like Wall Street, like Wall Street in Tulsa.
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  And we've learned so much about that lately, but that was going on in many communities
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  around the country.
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  Black people were creating their own businesses.
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  And Madam Walker really tapped into the fact that women were moving to the cities, and they
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  wanted to do something other than be somebody's made.
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  So now let's talk about that.
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  So a lot of the reason why black people were creating businesses was because they weren't
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  allowed to patronize white businesses.
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  Was that I mean, that was really what kind of what
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  they were doing.
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  That's right.
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  People were people were kept out of business is we weren't being hired.
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  We weren't able to go to to certainly most of the predominantly white institutions.
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  There might be 1 or 2 people.
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  But our businesses, we had to create our own businesses because we weren't getting loans
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  from banks.
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  They weren't, you know, they were redlining our neighborhoods.
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  Keeping us from buying property, pushing us into the worst slums of every city, but there
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  were people who were innovative enough and entrepreneurial enough that they were creating
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  banks and funeral homes and barbershops and beauty shops and real estate companies So when
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  Madam Walker for instance went to the National Negro Business League Convention in 1912, there
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  were a few 100 African Americans from all over the United States who were there talking about
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  their businesses, about newspapers they were publishing, about the other of things they were
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  doing to make a difference in their communities.
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  So talk to me about her business.
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  Like, how did her business empire work?
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  What what was she selling and and how did she get these Walker agents that were all over the
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  place?
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  So, you know, when you think about what she actually created her Madam Walker's wonderful
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  hair grower.
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  So there's a picture of that hair grower right behind me.
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  That was her original packaging.
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  But her real price, she was solving a personal problem, which is often how a business starts
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  at a time when most Americans didn't have indoor plumbing.
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  They had really bad scalp infections.
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  So they didn't bathe very often, which we don't like to think about very much maybe once a
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  week.
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  But at the women often, sometimes only wash their hair once a month.
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  So you can imagine what kind of dandruff you might have.
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  So those out infections were what she was really working on.
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  She developed a shampoo and then an ointment like a Vaseline that contains soft for and the
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  ink that was a medicinal ingredient that healed the infection.
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  So then once your hair was healthy I mean, once your scalp was healthy, your hair could grow
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  back.
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  Hence, Madam Walker's wonderful hair grower.
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  Thousands of women had the same problem, and so that's how she began her business.
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  So she started off small, selling door to door, but then quickly began to travel around the
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  country with her 3rd husband, Charles Joseph Walker, who knew something about promotion and
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  advertising, They traveled all over the from St.
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  Louis to Denver and then throughout the Southern and Eastern United States settling in
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  Pittsburgh in 1908 when she opened her 1st beauty school, really at the College of beauty
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  culture.
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  And then that's 1908.
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  And then for the next decade, She is developing agents, training agents throughout the United
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  States, and really using Some of the examples that still some of the tips that still work
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  today in terms of marketing and advertising and training.
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  So she was one of the first, like, direct marketers, right, because she basically
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  empowered women to become sort of, like, licensed agents of her organization and they
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  would get product wholesale from her and sell it in their local community.
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  So
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  you know.
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  So, yeah, and I think direct sales has been around, you know, as you know, for a very long
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  time, but Mann and Walker really tapped into, like, the perfect timing of black women during
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  one of those early migrations to the cities.
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  And these were women who wanted to work for them sales because working in somebody else's
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  home was actually quite dangerous.
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  You know, we joke about, you know, the house Negroes, but if you worked in somebody's home,
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  your body was not really safe, especially if you had to live in.
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  So she wanted to give these women an alternative because she had been that woman as
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  a washing woman, but she but she had learned a lot from the women of her church when she first
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  moved to Saint Louis.
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  In 18 88, she joined Saint Paul African Methodist Episcopal Church.
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  And people who know something about the AA church know that it was the women of the church
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  in choir in the missionary society who often reached out to poor women like Sarah Brie love,
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  the washerwoman, and began to mentor them and give them visions of themselves as something to
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  and that they could aspire to other things.
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  So that's where she began to learn this power of women and organizations that might, again,
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  might missionary society, the choir, And then the National Association of Colored Women met
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  in her church.
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  They were founded before the NAACP.
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  This was a national network of women primarily doing, you know, social work and found in
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  kindergartens and old folks homes, but that power of women working collectively served as
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  an example to her as she developed her own sales agents.
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  So when she began to when she was in Denver, she realized that That market was gonna be
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  really small because there weren't a lot of black people in Colorado just as there aren't
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  now.
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  And her market was black women and black women's eds.
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  So as she traveled around, she began to develop this network through churches, through
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  fraternal organizations, through women's organizations, she would take out an ad in the
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  newspaper that she was getting ready to go to, and it's stunning when you think she did have
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  Instagram.
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  She didn't have the, you know, the internet.
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  But she had black newspaper.
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  So she'd take out an ad and say I'm coming to town, and then she would give a lecture that
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  was about current events and black education, and she had what was called a Stereo Opticon,
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  which was an early version of PowerPoint.
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  She had glass slides, which were projected.
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  So she would do a big lecture to maybe 3 or 400 people.
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  And then after the lectures, she would meet with 10 to 15 women in a smaller group and
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  demonstrate her Madam Walker system of hair care.
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  And as she did that, as she lectured and taught them, she would see who was the woman who had
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  some charisma?
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  Who was the person who others looked up to?
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  Who asked the best questions?
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  And she would make that person her lead sales age in that town.
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  So that was her way of developing a Salesforce.
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  Interesting.
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  Interesting.
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  Interesting.
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  So you believe that she drove what drove her to this business really was it sounds like more
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  like women's empowerment more than anything else, like, to help women not have to be
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  servants and and and wash your women and and things like this.
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  Absolutely.
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  And, you know, she had I think first was introduced to the hair care industry through
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  her brothers who were barbers, in the late late 1800s when black men dominated the barbering
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  trade.
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  And then After her hair began to fall out, she worked for a period of time for Annie Malone,
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  the woman who founded the Poro company.
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  So she was her sales agent and then she decided to go into business for herself.
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  There were other companies black owned and white owned companies that had had the similar
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  formula before even even either Annie Malone or Madam Walker, but that was she realized she
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  wanted to be on her own that she could do this on her own.
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  And she I think as she saw the difference that she made, you know, once people felt better
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  about their hair, once their hair grew back, She was kind of yes.
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  She had accomplished that issue, but she realized that what really needed to be done was
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  to give women confidence and economic independence because she'd been a woman who had
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  been dependent on others, and she could see that being able to make your own money was a
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  made a huge difference in people's lives.
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  So when you think about, you know, the book that you wrote, you know, on her own ground,
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  the life and times of Madame CJ Walker, And I know that it was rereleased early this year
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  under the name self made to coincide with the with the with the Netflix series.
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  The 4 part Netflix series, which which many of us watched the opening weekend.
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  You know, I certainly did and made sure that I that I shared it around, but What would you say
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  now thinking about her and all that she did?
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  What would you say is her enduring legacy?
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  Like, you know, people still talk about her She's been gone a long time and and and, you
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  know, people still talk about her, but what what would you say is her enduring legacy?
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  Well, I think that because she was so multidimensional, it was a big deal alone to
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  found a company to be a pioneer of what is now a multibillion dollar international haircare
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  Industry.
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  But she had the vision to use the money and the networks and the influence that she had to
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  empower others.
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  And that was as a philanthropist to contribute it to the NAACP anti lynching movement who
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  helped to fund black schools and black organizations It was as a patron of the arts.
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  It was as a person who knew that it made a difference if women could create their own
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  independent income because, ultimately, it created generational wealth.
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  And she and her convention of her sales agents in 1917, her very first convention, 2 years
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  before Mary Kay was born, she gave prizes to the women who had sold the most new pro most
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  products and brought in the most new agents, but she also gave prizes to the women who
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  contributed the most to charity.
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  And she told them that their first duty was to humanity.
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  So I think that what she saw that she was developing an army of independent, economically
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  independent women who are buying homes, who are educating their children.
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  And I, you know, Even to this day, I will meet somebody who was has a diploma that there was a
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  great odds, their great great grandmother's diploma from a walker school, and they would
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  say, you know, and grandma bought a house that we still are invested in real estate.
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  Now chief Madam Walker was doing that thing, educating people and helping people by real
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  estate, which is how American wealth is created.
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  The problem, of course, as we know, is that those neighborhoods have been redlined.
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  So she was she had the right vision, but could not anticipate the evilness of the federal
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  government and white supremacy.
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  Sure.
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  Sure.
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  Sure.
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  Sure.
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  And there's so much conversation about that as it as we talk about the sort of racial equity
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  gap and and just poverty, you know, in general.
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  Now I I I wanna talk to you a little bit about the Netflix series itself.
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  I know self made.
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  You say that it's a it was a fictionalized 4 part series for Netflix.
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  And and I I really wanted to to get into that because I was shocked to learn how much of the
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  story was fabricated for TV.
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  And I really wanna give you an opportunity to tell me What was true?
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  What wasn't true?
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  And and how did how did that even go down?
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  Like, how did they even how were they even able to do that?
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  Cause it was based on the book that you had done all this research.
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  I mean, your your book is like one of these, like, you know, super thick autobiography
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  books.
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  And I I realized they couldn't do the whole thing.
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  But I mean, let's let's talk about what happened when when the producers got ahold of
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  your your precious
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  Yes.
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  Self made.
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  So, you know, I, I I will say this first.
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  I thought Octavia Spencer was exactly the right person to play Manifaka.
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  She was really strong in the role, but she had to, you know, deal with the script that was
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  given to her.
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  Sure.
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  So I went into this thinking that this was going to be something that would make me feel
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  proud and that would inspire other people.
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  And my book was up as often happens with the Hollywood, you know, production that the author
• 17:27
  is really kind of pushed to the side.
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  Now that doesn't happen all the time, but in my case, even though it started out with me trying
• 17:34
  to be involved and feeling that I was going to be involved, the head writer who was retained
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  by the production company, Nicole Jefferson Asher decided she didn't want my input because
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  I didn't agree with her desire to make it into, so far And when I had one conversation with her
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  in 2015 when this was starting out, and I thought we were having just, you know, like,
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  here's what I'm thinking.
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  Here's what you're thinking.
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  Let's, you know, happy to exchange your information.
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  And at some point during the conversation, she said, that she saw the conflict between Madam
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  Walker and Annie Malone who in real life was Madam Walker's rival as the spine of the story.
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  And I'm sure I said as I have always said to people, well, I think that's an interesting
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  piece, but it's, for me, certainly not the central part of Madam Walker's life.
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  Nor animal loans like they were both successful entrepreneurs and philanthropists.
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  And when I said that, apparently, she decided that she was going to do everything she could
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  to keep me out of the conversation and which she was successful in doing for 2 years, but as
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  it got closer to the time for production, the one thing that I had in the contract, because
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  you, you know, you sell your book and you try to negotiate things and they try to keep you
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  out and you try to push something in.
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  And the one thing that I did have was what's called script review.
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  It did it meant that I couldn't veto things, but I did have the right to review the script.
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  So the scripts were sent to me.
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  And when I received the first script, and I saw that this was essentially Real Housewives of
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  Atlanta, and not hidden figures, which is what I had been hoping for, I was appalled.
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  And the thing that I did with the script was to give my notes and say, I really don't think
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  this is gonna fly.
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  There are a lot of people who have expectations.
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  This is really inaccurate.
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  I think this is implausible.
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  I think this is really distorting.
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  And I won a few arguments, and I did not win most of them.
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  And the things that they kept saying to me, well, this is, you know, you just you don't
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  know how to think about television.
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  Even though I worked at television for 30
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  years, like, you you worked for I mean, that's that's implausible that they they didn't know
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  what
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  to do.
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  Insulting, but it was this sort of, well, you know, you we know better than you.
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  And I said, I don't think so.
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  And so I held back as I have erode in my undefeated essay.
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  I didn't come out right when the when the show got gave it a few days, a a couple of weeks to
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  see where things are going.
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  And Black Twitter raised exactly the objections that I've had.
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  Right.
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  They tore it up.
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  Yeah.
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  No.
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  I I saw some of that.
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  And and I but I still was like, we gotta support it, right, because we were so excited
• 20:25
  to see Madame CJ's story finally be told that way.
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  And I did think Octavia Spencer was master all playing her.
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  And I appreciated Blair Underwood playing her husband too.
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  I must say that, with his lovely self.
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  But
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  I yes.
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  Absolutely.
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  And I I will say I especially, I love that that was her love interest.
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  And I'm very grateful too to Blair Underwood because when they were in Toronto filming, he
• 20:56
  called me to ask to try to do a little bit more research on CJ Walker.
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  So he was doing what I think the, you know, the best actors do, which is to do their research,
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  to try to get a little bit more underneath the surface.
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  Again, he had to deal with the script that was given to him, but he had the integrity to want
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  to know more.
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  So I just it's a missed opportunity.
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  You know, there are things that I did like, like, I think the market seeing where Madam
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  Walker is trying to convince the other women I think that's a lovely touch.
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  I love blue wigs.
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  I thought the wigs were great.
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  No.
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  I thought the hair was good.
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  Now you know, a lot of times, hey, Jack, I'm playing actresses in movies.
• 21:34
  They jack us up.
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  I mean, even even when the movies are celebrating us, our hair does not all wait.
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  Like, girls trip, I wanted to scream when I saw the movie girls trip.
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  About the hair.
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  The hair was a problem.
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  But, yeah, so, I mean, I get it.
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  I think the costuming was masterful too.
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  I loved the period clothing that was worn.
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  But I I remember reading one thing that, like, they acted like her daughter was a lesbian in
• 22:00
  the movie, and that wasn't really true.
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  That was all for theater.
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  You know, almost nothing about almost nothing about the character was accurate.
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  I mean, mother daughter relationship for me should have been a central part of the story,
• 22:15
  you know, how they navigate it like.
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  But the Esther character was entirely made up.
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  I don't know why they put that in there because the real life conflict so much more interesting
• 22:26
  that Aaliyah Walker had 2 boyfriends, both doctors, both handsome.
• 22:31
  Her mother liked one better than the other because he was more of a good guy, she
• 22:35
  ultimately ended up marrying them both over time.
• 22:39
  Like, you know, so that for me was about, you know, I'm writing about that in the you know,
• 22:43
  the biography of a Lily Walker, that's, like, real, real drama.
• 22:46
  The the fact that they had this the guy John Robinson, she was married to him for a few
• 22:53
  years, but they were only together for a few months.
• 22:55
  So he never moved to Indianapolis, which means there was never a that burned down the factory.
• 23:00
  And and they had this for me, which was just kinda silly.
• 23:04
  Having the Aliyah Walker character trying to sing in a, you know, the in front of this
• 23:10
  party.
• 23:10
  When I will tell you when I interviewed Albert Hunter, the very famous singer who was a 1 of
• 23:16
  Aaliyah Walker's good friends, she told me that Aaliyah Walker had a beautiful singing voice.
• 23:21
  So they and I mentioned that during the scripting process, and they totally ignored me.
• 23:26
  So this was just I don't know what their agenda was.
• 23:29
  Interesting.
• 23:30
  Interesting.
• 23:30
  But that that must have been hard because you worked so hard to tell the story to do all the
• 23:35
  research, to tell the story accurately.
• 23:38
  And when you when you sell your story to people, though, you really lose control.
• 23:42
  Right?
• 23:42
  That's basically the
• 23:43
  rule of the story.
• 23:44
  And it, you know, and it really it depends on the people.
• 23:47
  So if you don't have to lose control, But if there is a person who is intent upon leaving
• 23:53
  you out of the process, they will be able to do that because they are in LA.
• 23:58
  They're in the writer's room.
• 23:59
  They're having the meetings.
• 24:00
  You know, you're not there.
• 24:01
  Though I will say, I believe that I am going to have another opportunity to tell this story
• 24:06
  again.
• 24:07
  Alright.
• 24:07
  You know, as I finish this book on Aaliyah Walker, I think there will be another series.
• 24:11
  There are other platforms on which to tell the story, and I know that I this will not happen
• 24:18
  again in exactly the same way.
• 24:20
  And it is I mean, you know, it and when you're in business, when you live long enough, There's
• 24:25
  stuff that doesn't go right.
• 24:27
  I mean, this is part of life.
• 24:29
  So I feel like, okay.
• 24:30
  You know, I didn't get what I wanted on this.
• 24:33
  And a lot of things went wrong, and there was a lot of stuff that I really, really did not
• 24:38
  like, but I'm a big girl.
• 24:41
  And there will be other moments.
• 24:43
  I just I'm I'm more heartbroken for the people, the mothers who wanted to watch it with their
• 24:49
  daughters.
• 24:50
  I'm heartbroken for people who really need to know black history.
• 24:53
  For FB Ransom, who was terribly misbursed trade as if he were, you know, a guy who had taken a
• 24:59
  vow as a young man to never drink smoke or gamble is portrayed as a person who bet on the
• 25:04
  numbers and had illegal money to invest in the Walker company, which wasn't true.
• 25:09
  I I my heart is broken for Booker T Washington's family members who know that he
• 25:15
  was misportrayed.
• 25:16
  So those things while it is my family.
• 25:18
  And I know people say to me, oh, it's your family.
• 25:20
  And, you you know, it must really, you know, be a problem for you.
• 25:23
  Yeah.
• 25:24
  I don't like it because I know that the real story is so much more interesting, but I'm
• 25:28
  heartbroken for all the other people.
• 25:30
  Right.
• 25:30
  Right.
• 25:31
  Well, I I'm excited about the next move Right?
• 25:35
  I'm excited about the 10 part series, not the 4 part series.
• 25:38
  How about that?
• 25:40
  So I I, you know, you me know.
• 25:42
  I'm gonna have a party and watching party at my house for the next one.
• 25:45
  Okay?
• 25:45
  I want you to know that.
• 25:46
  But I
• 25:47
  I really We would we will be it will be It will be different.
• 25:52
  I know that, but, you know, my mother always says that you get to pay for the lesson the
• 25:56
  first time.
• 25:56
  That's what she told me.
• 25:58
  And I have known.
• 25:58
  In my 21 years of being in business, I know that to be true for sure.
• 26:03
  Now listen, I I wanted you to talk a little bit more about your great grandmother.
• 26:07
  I'm I wanna know a little bit more about Olivia Walker because you are her namesake.
• 26:12
  Right?
• 26:12
  You were named after her?
• 26:14
  Exactly.
• 26:15
  Exactly.
• 26:15
  F Two is my mother.
• 26:16
  So we're 3, Aliyah.
• 26:18
  So the great grandmother, and then my grandmother, May, then my mother, Aliyah, and
• 26:23
  then on Aliyah.
• 26:24
  But, yeah, I, you know, I actually was, as a young person, much more interested in Aliyah
• 26:30
  Walker.
• 26:30
  Our birthdays are almost the same.
• 26:32
  She's born on June 6, and I'm born on June 7th.
• 26:36
  And my grandfather had all of these books that had been in her apartment in New York when a
• 26:41
  Lilia Walker died in 1931.
• 26:44
  My grandmother may move the contents of one of her homes to Indianapolis, her baby grand piano
• 26:50
  that was it that ended up being in our living room, her silverware, her linen, you know,
• 26:55
  furniture and these books that had been part of this salon she started called The Dark Tower.
• 27:01
  So as a black kid in high school and a predominantly white school in the late sixties,
• 27:05
  as I was discovering black literature, there were books that were autographed by Linx and
• 27:11
  Hughes and Jean Tumor and Countic Cullen.
• 27:14
  And so I was trying to write about those people as I was, you know, I loved writing.
• 27:19
  I wanted to, you know, be inspired by those folks So she was really my first interest.
• 27:25
  Madam Walker was complicated because she was it was about hair and is when everybody was trying
• 27:32
  to have an Afro.
• 27:33
  So I'm really gravitated towards towards Amelia Walker.
• 27:37
  And, you know, and I have And I think one of the things when I was writing on her own
• 27:42
  ground, I was developing the relationship between mother and daughter.
• 27:46
  I'm really fortunate that we have 100 of their letters.
• 27:49
  So I'm able to have a dialogue with them in the book.
• 27:51
  And I realized as I was writing the book that Amelia Walker needed her own plat form her own
• 27:57
  story because she's kind of been put into a little box of, you know, Madam Walker made the
• 28:03
  money.
• 28:03
  She spent the money.
• 28:04
  She had parties during the Harlem Renaissance, the end, and she's so much more interesting
• 28:10
  than that.
• 28:10
  It wasn't just parties.
• 28:11
  It was bringing people together in a who from uptown from downtown, from Europe, from Africa,
• 28:17
  the writers, the actors, the musicians, all of these folks, and and creating a space for them.
• 28:24
  That was, like, the most amazing salon you can imagine.
• 28:27
  And she traveled internationally.
• 28:29
  London Paris Rome Monte Carlo, Monte Carlo, Addis Ababa, where she met the Empress Cairo.
• 28:35
  So her life is really fascinating.
• 28:37
  Sounds like it.
• 28:38
  Now did she ever have an active role in the business, though, once the business really got
• 28:42
  up and, you know, really
• 28:44
  doing Yeah.
• 28:44
  So she, you know, and that part of her story is, you know, is also distorted.
• 28:49
  So she started remember, she was really a young adult by the time Adam Walker started the
• 28:55
  business.
• 28:55
  She was already twenty years old.
• 28:57
  So she was who she was going to be, but she was on this ride with her mother, and she was, of
• 29:03
  course, expected to work with the business.
• 29:05
  So she ran the Pittsburgh office, and it was really her idea that they have a presence in
• 29:10
  Harlem.
• 29:11
  Hart, New York was part of her territory when she was running the Pittsburgh office, and she
• 29:15
  traveled to New York.
• 29:17
  And it she said to her mother, we need to buy a building.
• 29:20
  We need to be in harm.
• 29:21
  So she was the one who had the vision that staking a claim as Harlem was becoming the
• 29:26
  Mecca for black culture and politics and business was important.
• 29:31
  And I think that vision is part of the reason that they are still remembered and even more
• 29:37
  than their editors and contemporaries because by being in Harlem and building this beautiful
• 29:44
  salon and townhouse and having these homes, that those things endured, and they were
• 29:50
  symbolic of the kind of example.
• 29:53
  Even in in some ways, you think it's the you know, the lost leader, you know, having a
• 29:57
  having a store on rodeo Drive.
• 29:59
  Right.
• 30:00
  That kind of thing they were in the center of things.
• 30:03
  Now I know one of the things that that people talked about a lot is this mansion that madame
• 30:09
  CJ Walker bought in New York.
• 30:11
  And can you tell us a little bit about it and and what it meant to her and how long she even
• 30:15
  lived there before, you know, other people were able to, I think, purchase it later on, but can
• 30:21
  you talk a little bit about that?
• 30:22
  You know, it's so exciting.
• 30:24
  When you think They when Aaliyah moved to when Aaliyah Walker moved to Harlem in 1913, she
• 30:30
  hired Wirtner Tandy, the first licensed black architect in New York who also was one of the
• 30:35
  founders of Alpha Fi Alpha.
• 30:37
  He redesigned this beautiful double town house that looked like something more from the east
• 30:41
  side.
• 30:42
  And when Madam Walker decided that she was going to move her residents to New York, the
• 30:47
  company stayed headquartered in Indianapolis, but she moved to New York.
• 30:51
  And I joke about this, but it's sort of true.
• 30:53
  The house was too small for 2 women.
• 30:56
  So So she decided she wanted her own place, and it was to build this mansion in Irvington, New
• 31:04
  York, in Westchester, County, the wealthiest ZIP code in America.
• 31:08
  And she had worked so hard.
• 31:09
  She knew she was sick.
• 31:11
  I mean, she had, you know, high blood pressure, hypertension, She didn't I don't think she
• 31:15
  expected to die, but she knew that she was gonna struggling, and she really wanted a place
• 31:21
  that where she could entertain people and where she could relax.
• 31:24
  And so she built this house that moved and she moved in in May of 1918 and had a big opening
• 31:31
  party in August of 1918 but died there in May of 1919.
• 31:37
  So she actually lived in the house for less than a year, but she had a vision that this
• 31:42
  house would be symbolic that it would inspire others, and we are really fortunate that it's
• 31:48
  still standing.
• 31:48
  That is a national historic landmark.
• 31:51
  Now I know that it did it at one point, did it fall into disrepair and it had to be restored?
• 31:57
  And, I mean, there was a there's a whole story around kinda what happened at the house, but it
• 32:02
  has been purchased now, right, by people who are doing entrepreneurship development and
• 32:07
  things there.
• 32:08
  Like, something, you know, house.
• 32:09
  The house was my grandparents, the estate of after a Lily Walker said, sold the house to a
• 32:16
  white women's group called companions of the fort.
• 32:18
  And they owned La Pell, who was a white guy who was, you know, really interested in the
• 32:22
  history, did a little bit of renovation, then Harold and Helena Doley, an African American
• 32:28
  couple, purchased it in 1993, and they did a great deal of restoration.
• 32:34
  Put back the original roof and I had a new NCF designer showhouse redid the kitchen, but the
• 32:40
  house was actually four hundred year old house actually been in great shape since they began
• 32:45
  to do the work.
• 32:46
  And then they sold it to the Madam Walker Foundation, which was created by Richel Denis,
• 32:52
  who was the founding CEO of Sundile Brand.
• 32:55
  And after Rich sold Sundile to Unilever, part of the proceeds were used to create a
• 33:02
  $100,000,000 venture capital fund for women of color entrepreneurs.
• 33:07
  So there are some repairs that have to be made now because the house is a hundred years old,
• 33:11
  and it's held up by the pandemic.
• 33:13
  But I by the end of the year, the the house should be reopened.
• 33:17
  But it won't be a house museum.
• 33:19
  It's not really gonna be open to the public because the village is not zoned for that, but
• 33:24
  it will be a convening space for entrepreneurs, and then I think occasionally opened up.
• 33:30
  Awesome.
• 33:30
  Awesome.
• 33:31
  Well, that is really, really great.
• 33:32
  I know that you have so many things and so many projects that you have worked on over the years
• 33:39
  related to your family.
• 33:41
  But I I won't what is like your favorite Madame CJ Walker story that, you know, kind of
• 33:47
  everyone doesn't know.
• 33:48
  Like, do you have, like, a a a great one from that maybe your mom told you or, you know,
• 33:54
  something that, like, just a great story about her that would really kinda leave people with
• 33:59
  the quintessentialness,
• 34:00
  she was.
• 34:01
  Yeah.
• 34:02
  But, you know, there's certain there, you know, there are 100 things, but I do know that that
• 34:06
  that things that I love just from reading the letters, like, just who she was as a person.
• 34:12
  And that even after all of this says, there's a letter that she wrote to her attorney, and she
• 34:19
  was talking about being in the garden at Villalowaro and getting up early with the sun
• 34:25
  in the spring and putting on what she called her farmer ret dolls, and they were like
• 34:30
  overalls.
• 34:31
  And she's going out and pulling weeds.
• 34:33
  And looking at the bounty and the things that have been grown.
• 34:36
  So I thought this is a girl, you know, who grew up on a cotton farm cotton plantation and who
• 34:41
  knew how to farm and knew how to grow greens, And here she is.
• 34:44
  She's now a millionaire, and she still loves putting her hands in the dirt.
• 34:48
  So that kind of thing I love.
• 34:50
  And then, you know, on the other end of the spectrum that she was able to transform herself
• 34:55
  from this poor uneducated washer woman into a political activist to the point where she and I
• 35:01
  to be Wells were spied upon by a black spy during World War 1 and called Negro Subversives
• 35:09
  because they were speaking out for the rights of African Americans and speaking out against
• 35:13
  Lynch.
• 35:14
  Wow.
• 35:15
  Wow.
• 35:15
  So, you know, I can imagine and her and IDB Wells getting together to to masterful women
• 35:22
  saying, look, we're not taking this.
• 35:24
  We gotta do something about it.
• 35:26
  And we don't need no men to do it.
• 35:27
  We're gonna do it.
• 35:28
  I really, really appreciate your time, you know, sharing just a little bit of of madam CJ
• 35:34
  Walker with us.
• 35:35
  I mean, she's an icon.
• 35:37
  She's an inspiration.
• 35:39
  I was thrilled that they did the movie about her.
• 35:42
  I didn't realize how much of it was fiction, but nonetheless, it made people look her up.
• 35:49
  It made people go by your book.
• 35:50
  It made people Google her and and look at her Wikipedia.
• 35:54
  And I And I think that is of value.
• 35:57
  If people who've never heard of her know her name and and hopefully through this podcast
• 36:01
  interview, even more people will know about Mada CJ Walker and about you, my dear friend
• 36:07
  and mentor, Lillian Bundles.
• 36:08
  I'm so thrilled that you were able to come by small business chat and talk to me today And do
• 36:14
  you have any party words, any last thoughts, or when can we look out for the new book to come
• 36:19
  out?
• 36:19
  I'm just at to be reconnected with you, and that is one of the great gifts that Madame
• 36:25
  Walker's story has given to me.
• 36:27
  The ability to talk with people who are doing interesting things, who are doing meaningful
• 36:32
  things like you are doing.
• 36:33
  So I'm just gonna keep following what you're doing.
• 36:36
  Would love for people to, as you say, buy the book on her own ground and come to my websites,
• 36:41
  aaliyah bundles.comandmadamcjwalker.com.
• 36:45
  Sign up for the newsletter, but, you know, just follow me on instagram and Twitter, Adelilia
• 36:50
  Bundles because we have a lot of things that we're going to be doing over the year.
• 36:53
  The book will be out.
• 36:54
  The book on the Lily Walker will be out next year, but I've got a lot more in store.
• 36:59
  Alright.
• 36:59
  Well, I I can't wait.
• 37:01
  I I'm excited.
• 37:02
  This conversation has jazzed me up, and I and I think that it's important to talk about amazing
• 37:09
  hero women of our past so that we can have inspirations for what we need to do in the
• 37:14
  future.
• 37:15
  You know, I'm Melinda Emerson, the small business lady.
• 37:17
  You are listening to the small bridge chat podcast, and I will leave you with this.
• 37:21
  You never lose in business.
• 37:22
  Either you win or you learn.
• 37:24
  God bless everybody.
• 37:25
  Thank you.
• 37:27
  Thank you for listening to the Small Biz Chat podcast with Melinda Emerson.
• 37:32
  For more resources and small business success strategies, visit succeed as your own boss.com.
• 37:39
  Subscribe to this podcast wherever you listen to the podcast and join us next Wednesday.