Latest / PNW Haunts & Homicides / Missing in Wenatchee: The Decker Sisters Case

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Missing in Wenatchee: The Decker Sisters Case · PNW Haunts & Homicides

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The search quickly became one of the largest coordinated manhunts in the region in recent
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years and included the U.S. Marshall Service, the FBI, Washington State Patrol, Shilan County
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Sheriff's Office, and numerous local search and rescue groups accustomed to operations
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in rugged wilderness terrain.
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These agencies brought together drones, helicopters, canine units, ground teams, and trappers
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experienced in wilderness navigation.
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Wow.
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So I mean, they pulled it all out.
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Hi, Cassie.
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Hi, Caitlyn.
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Hi, creepy people.
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Hello.
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Hello.
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This is PNW Haunts and Homicides, where we chat about true crime, the paranormal, and other
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spooky things and creepish it.
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All kinds of stuff.
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We also do a tarot reading at the end of every episode for a little bit of deeper insight
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into our topic.
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Okay, so jumping into it.
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Travis Caleb Decker, age 32, has been very easily described as an active athletic father,
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and alternately a struggling ex-soldier.
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As his mental health deteriorated, he exhibited increasing signs of instability.
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Whitney Decker, his ex-wife, and the mother of their three young daughters, Peyton, Evelyn,
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and Olivia, grew concerned.
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They were 98 and 5 at the time.
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I know this is kind of rough timing after the Powell case, but this one has been on my
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radar for a while because it is really kind of a fresh case.
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Fresh-ish, okay.
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I think the case is at the point that we have most of the answers that we're likely to ever
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receive, which is sort of, I'm realizing in hindsight, a little bit of a foreboding place
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to start, but it does inform this case received extensive local coverage, but primarily in waves,
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as major updates occurred from last May to October 2025.
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That was a couple months ago.
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Yeah, so I mean, for those of us that live in the region and if you followed it, it probably
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doesn't feel as fresh, but it is a very recent case.
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We don't talk about as many cases that are like this recent.
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It didn't receive the type of sustained coverage that we see in some other cases, you know,
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like Idaho 4, Gabby Petito, just, you know, kind of some examples of ones that really
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did get the absolute, like, not just sustained, but like national and international interest
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and coverage.
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In a case that was quickly revealed as seemingly clear cut, where there is no trial or interrogation
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footage to televised, and the surviving family of the victims maintained privacy throughout
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their grief, the narrative and the media coverage itself was stunted and shockingly brief.
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Right, because like, what is there really to report on, you know?
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Yeah, it does sort of become like there's not really a nice way to put this, but I feel
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like the intrigue and the mystery is sort of taken out of it.
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So it just, yeah, it doesn't always hold our attention in the same way.
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Yeah, like I'm thinking like shock value, you know, clickbait, it's not as clickbaity.
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Yes, absolutely.
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While there aren't any significant or abundant studies of a robust academic makeup to cite,
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there does appear to be a phenomenon of PNW cases being generally under reported unless
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they grab national interest early.
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A case like Decker's, tragic, but seemingly straightforward, gets pushed out of the national
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spotlight.
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I think it's because we're kind of, we're like the youngest sibling of the family.
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Like we're the wildest, we were the territory settled last.
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And I think a lot of times areas like Dallas Fort Worth or like New York City, Chicago, those
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are kind of considered more major hubs than even, you know, maybe Seattle.
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And we're just the nasty little PNW over here.
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It's nice to say, I don't know, anyways, there's not a lot out there to cite in terms of research,
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but there is in terms of like actual like formalized studies.
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But there is like data that you can look at.
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And there's obviously anecdotal evidence.
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I just think it's, it's really kind of sad how that played out in this case because I expected
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to be seeing and hearing a lot more about this.
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So I've been kind of shocked over the last few months to not see that.
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That makes sense.
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Yeah.
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Well, I'm glad you're telling us about it.
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Yeah.
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I'm sorry.
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A United States military veteran Travis had previously lived in various parts of the
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Winachee Valley region of Washington state.
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According to information provided through court filings and statements made by his ex-wife's
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attorney, Decker struggled with a combination of unstable housing, unemployment and mental
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health challenges in the years following his military service.
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He seemed to be trying to cope with post-traumatic stress symptoms, symptoms that were presenting
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as severe enough to be raised in discussion regarding custody and visitation for the couple's
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three young daughters.
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Oh, wow.
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So obviously this person needs help.
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Yes.
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And I think we're all adult enough and see these things and experience them in so many different
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ways in our own personal experiences.
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But I think we all can understand that this is a really common problem for a lot of our
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service members.
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Yeah.
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And that's upsetting on so many levels.
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The couple had divorced in 2023 after several years of significant marital strain, associated
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legal filings reflect negotiations over parenting time and related safety considerations.
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A September 2024 modification petition and related filings requested that overnight
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time with the girls be restricted and that Travis also be required to undergo mental
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health treatment.
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Wow.
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Which I think is probably a net positive in some respects.
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Are they going to get them help binding the mental health treatment or does he just have
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to go figure that out?
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You know that part is kind of unclear to me.
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I would assume that when it's sort of like part of a court mandate, yeah, when it's part
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of a mandate, I would think that there are going to be resources because if it's mandated,
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they have to be able to measure it.
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So they have to be able to provide you with resources to say this meets the bar.
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So I would assume that there's, you know, resources that are being provided to you.
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I don't have a ton of information about like the details of what that looked like, but
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following the couple's divorce, Travis's visitation rights were governed by a court order
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that limited and structured his time with the children.
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On Friday, May 30th, 2025,
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Decker arrived at his ex-wife's home in the Wenatchee area to pick up his three daughters for
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a scheduled visitation.
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According to the family's attorney, Decker spoke with Whitney for approximately 15 to
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20 minutes at the door, engaging in what appeared to be normal conversation.
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Nothing in his demeanor stood out as alarming or unusual at the time.
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Nor was there any indication that he had planned anything that could be characterized as out
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of the ordinary.
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So just a pretty typical visit from their interaction at least.
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He stated that he intended to drop the girls back off by 8 p.m. that same evening.
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When 8 p.m. passed, without Decker returning the girls, Whitney attempted to contact him
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by phone.
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No answer.
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Subsequent calls also went to voicemail.
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She reportedly tried multiple times over the next hour and grew increasingly concerned.
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This behavior was described as "uncharacteristic" for him, even amid their strained, co-parenting
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relationship.
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Court documents would later note that the mother expressed immediate and escalating worry
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due to his known mental health challenges and recent instability.
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By May 31st, so the following day, the girls were formally declared missing.
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And Washington State Patrol issued an endangered missing person alert.
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Oh, man.
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According to my research, to issue a Washington State Amber Alert, a child under 18 must be
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confirmed as abducted, an imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.
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Other descriptive information about a potential suspect or vehicle must be available to aid
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in law enforcement efforts to recover the child.
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Additionally, the report must be made to law enforcement and investigated before an
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alert is requested.
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Wow.
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So you need to have contacted the police essentially to file a missing person's report and only
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then can you request an Amber Alert, which in, I would say, order of operations that probably
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makes sense.
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Yeah.
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It's unclear to me why law enforcement declined to activate an Amber Alert.
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Other than willful ignorance given the information at their disposal.
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It's totally making me think of the pal case.
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Are these kids actually endangered?
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And you're like, well, I don't know.
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But like this is the history.
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Has he threatened them directly?
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Maybe not.
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But, you know, I think we have a history and it's documented in the courts that there were
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concerns.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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And I would say that anytime there is a custody situation where the parent has like court
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mandated structure and restrictions placed on their custody agreement, it should be
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concerning.
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It should cause concern maybe for that child's well-being when the parent does not stick
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to the agreed upon schedule.
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Yeah.
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That alone to me almost sparks that like that's concerning.
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Yeah.
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I get how in illegal sons, maybe that doesn't rise to the bar, but I think in this case, it's
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a little bit of a misfire to say that they didn't meet the criteria.
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According to public reporting, the case did not meet Washington State's Amber Alert
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criteria at that time.
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A decision that later drew public scrutiny, as you might imagine.
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The lack of an Amber Alert became one of the early controversies surrounding the case.
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As many community members and child safety advocates argued that the combination of a
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missing parent, three very young children and known mental health concerns should have
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triggered the highest level alert system.
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It seems to be a troubling pattern within the Washington welfare system designed to protect
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children.
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But don't take my word for it.
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According to the Washington State Standards recent reporting, as of November 2025, deaths
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and critical injuries in Washington's child welfare system are near a record high.
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Oh, why?
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45 children died or nearly died compared to 49 in the previous year.
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It's too many.
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Yeah.
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And, you know, just having talks about the power case, I thought, "Cush, am I?"
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Is it my perception that seems like, "God, what is going on in Washington State?"
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And it turns out, you know, I'm noticing it because I'm talking about it and I'm researching
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it.
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There is something of a pattern and there is, it seems like a little bit of cause for concern
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because we're having these, like, kind of peak years.
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Yeah.
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So, wow.
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On June 2nd, authorities located Decker's White Pickup truck near the Rock Island campground,
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a forested area in Shaland County.
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The truck was parked near a wooded embankment in an area used by many that frequent that part
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of the Winnachi National Forest for outdoor recreation.
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The father, Travis Decker, himself, was not found at the scene.
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So, his vehicle is recovered, but he is not present.
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Tragically, the bodies of the three Decker sisters, Peyton, Evelyn, and Olivia were discovered
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down a small embankment near the truck in a densely wooded area not far from the campground.
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The discovery set off a series of investigative steps, including preservation of the crime
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scene, immediate autopsies, and the launch of what became a multi-agency manhunt for Decker.
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Yeah.
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Now?
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I know.
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It's frustrating.
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I actually had a conversation with Chris about this case, and the frustrating thing is that
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Amber alert or not, it's a possibility that nothing may have changed the outcome, but
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it feels better to know that we did everything that we could on the front end.
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Yeah.
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So, that's kind of tough.
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It may not be realistic to launch a manhunt for every single missing child in America,
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but in hindsight, an Amber alert doesn't seem like it's asking too much.
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Autopsy results determine that each child died from suffocation, and all three deaths were
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ruled homicides.
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These findings, combined with Decker's disappearance, created a straightforward investigative trajectory.
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Law enforcement agencies began to build timeline of his movements from the time the girls were
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picked up on May 30 through period leading up to the discovery of the bodies on June 2nd.
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According to investigative filings, two bloody handprints were found on the tailgate of Decker's
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truck.
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Oh.
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And this raised a question for me, as I was researching, because why were there bloody
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handprints if all three girls were strangled?
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Well, it was like, I have a lot of questions.
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Were they?
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Whose handprints were they?
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Childs are adults, or the truth is that it's likely very difficult to say for certain.
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Travis may have had an injury that predated the murders or that even took place at the
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time of the crime.
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Additional forensic evidence in the vicinity included plastic bags and zip ties.
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So they are presumably his handprints.
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And it's believed that it is his blood.
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That's kind of what I'm like, who else would it be?
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Right.
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Yeah, because it doesn't appear that there's blood evidence related to the girls.
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So, but that was a little bit confusing, I think.
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Right.
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Now I'm trying not to think about it too hard, because I'm like, what caused that?
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What do I want to not know in this moment?
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Authorities later reported that each child had one or more plastic bags placed over her
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head and that their wrists had been bound with zip ties.
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DNA testing conducted by the Washington State Crime Lab found Decker's DNA on said plastic
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bags and zip ties recovered from the scene.
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No other adult DNA profiles were identified on these items.
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These results significantly narrowed investigators' focus, reinforcing the conclusion of the
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conclusion that Decker was the sole perpetrator.
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Because truthfully, if their father is missing and you're finding his bloody prints on the
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truck, it's entirely possible that they had been attacked and, oh my gosh, what's become
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of him.
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But unfortunately, yeah, I was thinking the only other thing I can think of is someone held
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a gun to his head and forced him to do that.
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Then I feel like they would see footprints or any other evidence of anybody else being
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there.
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And they're not finding any other adult DNA profiles associated with essentially the items
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used to kill the girls.
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That seems very unlikely.
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So it's not very mysterious, but it's disgusting.
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Yes.
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Investigators also found digital forensic evidence indicating that in the days leading
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up to the killings, Decker conducted multiple online searches related to leaving the United
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States, relocating to Canada and finding employment across the border.
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Why do you need to kill your kids to do that?
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Yeah, I don't know if that was a separate plot altogether.
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Maybe he planned to try to flee the country with them, hard to say, and at some point the
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plan changed.
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Just leave.
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Just leave.
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Just leave.
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These searches raised early questions about premeditation and a possible escape plan.
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Whether these searches reflected in tend or desperation remains technically unclear, perhaps,
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but their presence in the digital timeline contributed to the prosecutorial logic in
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the charges that followed.
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Immediately following the discovery of the bodies, Travis Decker was charged with three
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counts of aggravated first-degree murder and three counts of first-degree kidnapping.
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In addition, federal authorities filed an unlawful flight to avoid prosecution charge.
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Yeah.
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Very specific type of charge.
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Did they find him yet?
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Or this is what he's being charged with?
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Yeah, this is just his charges.
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These charges were based on the combination of forensic evidence, Decker's disappearance,
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and the reconstructed timeline of his movements from May 30th onward.
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I mean, while we don't know if he really, truly had any plan to flee to Canada, that was the
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fact that he did that internet search, that's what led to the charge.
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Because that's another thing that they can kind of slap on.
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Yeah.
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The search quickly became one of the largest coordinated manhunts in the region in recent
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years and included the US Marshall Service, the FBI, Washington State Patrol, Shaland County
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Sheriff's Office, and numerous local search and rescue groups accustomed to operations in
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rugged wilderness terrain.
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So a lot of a lot of bodies involved in the search.
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These agencies brought together drones, helicopters, canine units, ground teams, and trackers, experienced
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in wilderness navigation.
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Wow.
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So, I mean, they pulled it all out trying to, yeah.
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But I think a lot of that had to do with his, it wasn't just his military experience.
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He also had some experience kind of living briefly as like a survivalist type of situation.
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Yeah.
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He definitely had a lot of outdoor survival skills.
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And like I said, you know, some experience to a degree where he could get away.
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Potentially.
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Yeah.
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Yeah.
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I think that was the concern very much.
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Decker was considered exceptionally dangerous for several reasons.
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Of course, there was his military background and likely familiarity with firearms, though
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notably none were found at the crime scene.
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But you know, then his documented wilderness experience and his demonstrated ability to
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survive and travel in remote outdoor environments.
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I would kind of assume that he just had guns on him.
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Right.
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I feel like at a certain point that doesn't feel like a huge leap.
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Yeah.
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Of course, they're not at the crime scene.
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Why would he leave his guns there?
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Right.
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Yeah.
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And they weren't used in the commission of this particular crime.
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So it wouldn't make a lot of sense for them to be found there.
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But the terrain in which he disappeared, includes steep and densely forested areas with
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rushing creeks and large swaths of roadless wilderness.
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Throughout the summer of 2025, teams searched hundreds of miles in the area.
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The manhunt also expanded beyond Washington at various points based on tips, including
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one on July 5th from a camping family in Idaho's Sautu National Forest.
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None of these sightings produced confirmed evidence of Decker.
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The manhunt only extended, continuing into September, despite the enormous search effort,
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extensive public coverage and the distribution of Decker's image across news, social media,
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and law enforcement bulletins.
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As the case unfolded, community frustration and public discourse about the alert systems
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intensified.
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Some lawmakers and child safety advocates questioned whether the endangered missing
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person alert was sufficient.
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And if adjustments to the criteria for amber alerts should be made in consideration in situations
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just such as this, where non-custodial parents with documented safety concerns failed to return
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children per established custody agreements.
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Well, I'm glad they're looking at that.
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And they're like, "Yeah, do we need to change this?"
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Yeah, I mean, so far I'm not aware of any major changes.
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She'll take a minute.
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The system moves slowly.
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And that's the frustrating part for sure.
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But that's good to have the story out there.
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So everybody knows, like, "Hey, if this, I don't know if we're going to get a chance to vote
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on it or whatever if it stays in the government, shenanigans, I have no idea you guys."
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Yeah, it's good to know what's going on, like, what to look for.
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It may not be a ballot measure.
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It may not be a vote, but here's the thing is in so many ways, even when things don't end
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up on our ballot, we are voting because we can apply pressure to the representatives that
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are able to make changes and that are able to enforce a new set of systems.
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So it may not be voting in terms of the ballot box, but the way that we communicate and the
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way that we approach our representatives about these situations, once we have an awareness,
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that's how we vote.
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Yeah, that's how we vote with things that aren't ballot measures.
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Tell us, Caitlin.
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I'm telling you.
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In December of 2025, human remains were found in a remote wooded area south of Leavenworth.
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Less than a mile from where the Decker sisters had themselves been discovered.
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What?
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The area where the remains were found is characterized by densely forested and steep terrain with very
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limited accessibility.
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Initial assessments by investigators led them to believe the remains were likely Travis
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Decker's.
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Holy shit.
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Subsequent formal procedures, including forensic documentation, transfer of remains and laboratory
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testing were initiated immediately.
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On September 24, 2025, the US Marshall Service publicly announced that DNA analysis had
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confirmed the human remains discovered near Rhinestone Mountain were those of Travis
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Caleb Decker.
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All authorities stated that the remains were significantly decomposed and that the degree
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of decomposition limited their ability to establish a definitive cause of cause or manner
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of death.
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Shit.
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Because of this, investigators have not determined whether Decker died shortly after the murders
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in early June or sometime later that summer or…
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Where's Bones?
25:51
Where's Temperance Brennan?
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Let's get her in here.
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She'll open it out.
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I'm gonna…
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It's tough because sometimes the condition of remains like we just…
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There's just questions we're not going to be able to answer.
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What we do know is that the US Forest Service closed the entire enchantments and ice cold
26:12
creek area, beginning initially Thursday, June 5th.
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The closure was scheduled to extend to June 18th for hibiting public access both to vehicles
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and pedestrian foot traffic on trails and roads in the area.
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By Saturday, June 7th, over 500 tips had poured into the Shalane County Sheriff's Office
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from the public.
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As more than 100 law enforcement workers continued the search for Travis Decker.
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However, by June 8th, it was determined no credible threat could be confirmed in the area,
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and the closure order was rescinded before federal authorities took over the search the following
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day, Monday, June 9th.
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So they had intended to close down this area of the National Park for, you know, two weeks
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essentially.
27:09
Yeah.
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And within not even like over the weekend, it was closed.
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Wow.
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That seems insane to me.
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There was a murder.
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Well, and here's the thing is, it's, you know, it's a massive area and they had already been
27:24
searching for several days at the point that they decided to close it.
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And once they were able to determine that they're not coming across anything that looks
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like active trails of Travis, I think they were determining, okay, we don't have to necessarily
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be super concerned about him still being in the area and causing harm to someone else.
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So here's my question because I came across this as sort of an interesting little fact about
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the search and kind of some of those specifics.
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It really kind of got my wheels turning.
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Is it more likely that Travis Decker was deceased the entire time that authorities had
28:05
been searching that area or that he evaded them long enough to either remain in the area
28:12
undetected or because it was only closed to public access for such a short time, is it possible
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that he even returned once public access was restored?
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Yeah.
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I could see it going any of those ways.
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Yeah.
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I mean, it's, it's honestly pretty much impossible to say.
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For now, I think that remains one of the many unanswered questions in the case.
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It's got it so hard to tell to us thinking about like the tips.
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Like, no, if those people actually, you know, because so many people look like other people.
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Yeah.
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And I will say that I don't know that I would characterize him as someone that like,
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oh, you'd know him if you saw him.
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You know what I mean?
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Like, there's some people that have like very distinctive, you know, facial features or,
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you know, like a very prominent like tattoo.
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He did have tattoos, but I don't know that anybody would necessarily like recognize them
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at a glance.
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I don't think he's really one of those guys.
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I will say some of the various photos that I came across of him over the years, I thought,
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wow, this is interesting because this almost doesn't even look like the same person.
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Hmm.
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So, to me, I'm thinking, oh, I guess I wonder what picture they're matching to.
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That really matters too.
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Yeah.
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The murders of the Decker sisters became one of the most widely followed criminal cases
29:52
in Washington state that year.
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Literally this year.
29:57
The case unfolded across Shalane County, the Winachee Valley, and eventually the high country
30:04
forest regions south of Leavenworth, which really ruins the cute Christmasy like, seriously,
30:11
a very envilled vibe of Leavenworth for me.
30:15
If you could not, I guess this does kind of have in a way, like if you have that association
30:21
association with Leavenworth, it does kind of have a Christmasy vibe.
30:25
Which you should, because we've talked about.
30:26
We're sharing the Christmas season.
30:29
The case unfolded across Shalane County, the Winachee Valley, and eventually the high country
30:37
forest region south of Leavenworth, where a month's long manhunt came to dominate the
30:43
regional news cycle.
30:46
But like literally just our regional news cycle, I just, there are so many cases where I
30:52
come across articles from like people magazine, or you know, just these like national publications
31:01
and there's just not really that.
31:05
I think so many cases deserve more attention.
31:10
And it's really hard.
31:12
It's really hard.
31:13
But to look at, to look at a picture of these three little girls all under the age of 10
31:21
and say, there's not enough intrigue in your murder case for people to care for more than,
31:30
you know, a couple of months.
31:33
And only regionally.
31:35
Just I don't, yeah.
31:37
That just, you know, and I know what, like we're all human and we're just, we're just following
31:43
our little monkey brains and the dopamine and, but it just really made me sad.
31:50
Confirmation of Decker's death effectively ended the active criminal proceedings.
31:55
Because I mean, yeah, we're already talked about.
31:58
It's not mysterious.
31:59
It was obviously him.
32:00
Right.
32:01
Well, like what do you, you're going to pursue charges against a dead guy?
32:06
I mean, convict him posthumously.
32:08
I don't very hollow.
32:10
Shilane County officials described the case as among the most disturbing acts of violence
32:16
the region had ever confronted.
32:19
So the killings themselves are considered solved numerous questions remain unanswered.
32:25
Most prominently the exact motive for the murders and the precise circumstances of Decker's
32:30
own death.
32:32
While the man hunt phase has closed portions of the investigative record remain open.
32:38
Crime scene analysis has continued and agencies have kept certain files active pending any
32:44
further developments or recovered evidence.
32:48
The date no co suspects have been identified and no evidence has been publicly disclosed
32:54
suggesting that any other party assisted Decker.
33:00
Peyton, Evelyn and Olivia were widely described as bright, warm and deeply loved members of
33:07
their community.
33:09
Local schools, neighbors, friends and extended family participated in vigils, memorials and
33:15
community support efforts.
33:17
A memorial service for the three sisters was held on June 20th, 2025.
33:24
The girl's mother Whitney spoke about their individual personalities, their routines and
33:30
her hopes for their futures, offering a portrait of children who were expressive, affectionate
33:37
and enthusiastic about school and family life.
33:42
This memorial became a central moment of shared grief in the Wenaji and Leavenworth communities.
33:49
Multiple community fundraisers and support networks began raising funds in the aftermath,
33:55
including a GoFundMe campaign actually multiple intended to support the mother and other surviving
34:01
relatives.
34:03
Because funeral services are very expensive, just to be able to lay all three of your tiny,
34:15
precious baby daughters to rest the expense of that.
34:21
I mean, talk about rubbing salt in a wound.
34:25
I'm glad that she got help with that.
34:28
I cannot even imagine.
34:31
The case of the Decker sisters is one that leaves behind more sorrow than certainty.
34:37
Although the core facts are tragically established, the girl's deaths, the evidence implicating
34:43
their father and the later confirmation of his own death in the wilderness, the deeper
34:49
questions about motive, mental decline and timeline remain unresolved.
34:56
In many ways, what lingers is not just the horror of the crime itself, but the uncomfortable
35:01
acknowledgement of all the moments where systems meant to protect vulnerable children proved
35:07
insufficient.
35:09
As the community continues to grieve, Peyton, Evelyn and Olivia, their story stands
35:15
as a solemn reminder of the gaps that still exist in child safety protocols, mental health
35:22
intervention and crisis response.
35:26
What survives now are their memories carried by their mother, their extended family and
35:31
the Winnachi and Leavenworth communities who mourn them.
35:36
The hope expressed quietly in vigils, fundraisers and shared grief is that their lives and the
35:43
heartbreaking failures that preceded their deaths will push policy, awareness and accountability
35:51
forward in ways that prevent another tragedy like this from unfolding.
35:57
Which I really hope that's the case, but it feels really hollow to say that right now,
36:04
because this is something that has happened so many years after the Powell kids.
36:11
So what does it take?
36:14
It's not that any of these cases that we talk about that we expect, "Oh, this one,
36:19
now we've solved it."
36:21
Now no more children die.
36:25
But it's like, what does it take for a system to have some foremost fucking muscle memory?
36:32
It feels like we're very much in the exact same place.
36:35
Well, do you want to do some tarot about it?
36:39
Yeah.
36:40
Maybe we'll get a little bit of a lighter card, I don't know.
36:43
Maybe.
36:44
We'll see.
36:45
I like to get the hopeful cards, you know?
36:47
Yeah.
36:48
I'm going to pull up the pictures too, so I can show you.
36:52
It's hard to imagine three more adorable children in the entire world.
36:56
I was just thinking, I don't fuck me up.
36:59
I don't want to see the pictures, actually.
37:01
Yeah.
37:02
Well, I did.
37:03
And you do have to.
37:05
I mean, okay, I do want to see them.
37:14
Ellen is at our new tarot table.
37:18
We've got a new lighting on it.
37:20
Looks amazing.
37:23
Her shuffling is divine.
37:26
The quote on our letterboard here is December is whatever this is, almost over.
37:34
Oh, King of Cups and Rivers.
37:37
Oh, Knight of Cups and Rivers, my bad, I cannot read.
37:40
They both start with K. It's fine.
37:43
Is that one the dolphin?
37:44
They look like Orcas me, but I think we've had this debate before.
37:51
Yeah, because we've had this card a few times.
37:53
Yeah.
37:54
Okay.
37:55
Let's say, yeah.
37:57
Okay.
37:58
So our key words for the Knight of Cups are communication, romance, travel, idealism and
38:08
flirtatiousness.
38:10
Interesting.
38:11
Yeah.
38:12
We did get it in reverse.
38:13
Yeah.
38:14
Okay.
38:15
When the Knight of Cups appears reversed, he may represent insecurity, indecision, lack
38:22
of commitment and immaturity, especially in relationships.
38:28
Sometimes he represents broken promises or deceit or an offer that's not based in reality.
38:36
If he stands for an actual person, he's someone to avoid.
38:40
He's not what he seems.
38:42
He may not even know himself who he is.
38:46
Even if his intentions are good, he can't fulfill them.
38:50
Damn, dude.
38:51
That part specifically is really chilling because we talked about his PTSD and like, what did
38:59
that do to like rewire his brain, you know, to where he wanted to murder his children.
39:04
Yeah.
39:05
Like, I'm sure he didn't start out that way, like wanting to do that, you know.
39:09
I can't imagine.
39:10
I mean, God, I would hope not.
39:13
Okay.
39:14
I'm going to read the extra excerpts and then I'll do the interpretation.
39:18
The Knight of Cups is the Knight of the Grail Legend.
39:22
The story of the Grail search is an allegory for seeking truth, beauty, purpose and salvation
39:30
in life.
39:31
The Knight on a white horse.
39:34
Some decks including the writer Waitsmith and the Thoth, Tarot, show the Knight of Cups
39:40
writing a white horse, a romantic depiction of love, a fairy tale Knight on a white charger
39:46
come to carry you away to a fantasy land.
39:49
So it kind of makes sense.
39:51
This is in reverse, huh?
39:54
That makes me think of just kind of like his children, like what he told them that day,
39:58
like I, like what they thought, you know, and we're going to have a good day with dad,
40:03
you know.
40:04
Yeah.
40:05
So sad.
40:06
The extra excerpt, you said something about searching, like there was this huge search for him.
40:14
Yeah.
40:15
He was the Holy Grail.
40:16
There was searching for, you know.
40:17
God, yeah.
40:19
In a reading about money, this card warns, get out while you can.
40:24
Someone may be trying to swindle you or an investment isn't found.
40:29
A financial advisor may be untrustworthy or an offer is too good to be true.
40:33
Well, I mean, considering like just the sheer instability and so many aspects of his life,
40:40
I feel like I'm unfortunately not being able to hold down a job and like, yeah, you kids
40:47
with someone, though you can't really escape that, like you don't really have that option.
40:51
Yeah.
40:52
You get their custody completely taken away.
40:54
But even then, like, yeah, they're still a part of your life forever.
40:59
If the reading is about your job, the reverse night can show dishonesty, deviousness, or incompetence,
41:07
either on your part or that of an employer or colleague.
41:12
A project may not get off the ground.
41:14
If you're considering a job change, this card advises against it.
41:20
In a reading about love, the night reversed indicates secrets and lies in a relationship.
41:27
A partner isn't being open or he's conflicted about his or her feelings.
41:33
Commitment isn't an option.
41:34
This card may also say you're living in a fantasy world, stop dreaming and get real.
41:40
Oof.
41:41
I mean, just the sheer, I don't know, the repetitiveness of like, get out, stay away, avoid.
41:48
Yeah, it's like very clear.
41:50
Yeah.
41:51
But like I said, like, there's really nothing you can do.
41:54
She did what she could do.
41:56
Yeah.
41:57
They were separated.
41:58
They had custody arrangements.
42:01
She did the most that she could do.
42:03
So, yeah.
42:04
And unfortunately, like the rest of the safety was kind of up to the other parent.
42:11
Right.
42:12
Yeah.
42:13
And so whatever systems are in place, and you can only count on that so much, obviously.
42:19
Yeah.
42:20
Okay.
42:21
Okay.
42:22
So we're not reading the interpretation in the little book, but I did want to look up
42:26
and see it is a Pacific white-sided dolphin.
42:30
A dolphin?
42:31
It's a dolphin.
42:33
Excellent.
42:34
I was kind of skimming the poem and it talks about like water and like vast expanse of things
42:41
and it reminded me of like him in the woods, possibly like being like a survivalist.
42:46
Yeah.
42:47
Type of vibe.
42:49
I think it's the vast expanse.
42:51
Yeah.
42:52
I think that's what does it.
42:53
It's like kind of a similar visual, even though it's like a different like water.
42:58
Yeah.
42:59
But like the water in the forest, honestly, are so similar to me because it's like an ocean
43:05
of trees.
43:06
Some facts to say.
43:07
Yeah.
43:08
A tree ocean, yeah.
43:09
Oh, a tree ocean.
43:10
Yeah.
43:11
I was going to say I wish he was a little more dolphin like, but then I'm like, wait,
43:15
aren't dolphins?
43:16
Like actually, people say they're kind of aggressive.
43:18
So like maybe it does feel.
43:20
It can't be.
43:22
It's like you think that they're one way, but they're kind of not.
43:28
I think that's why they picked the dolphin for that illustration.
43:32
I was just thinking that because like what did it say like the unrealistic expectations?
43:40
Like you think you're going to go play with this sweet dolphin and it'll bite your face
43:44
off.
43:45
Yeah, but there was something and I'm going to go back to it.
43:48
There's technically two things that I remembered kind of from the interpretation on the card.
43:54
And this is like in the actual narrative about the description of the physical card itself.
44:01
Oh, okay.
44:02
It says, if this night represents an actual person, blah, blah, blah, blah.
44:07
And the first half is I think things that like we want to associate with dolphins.
44:11
It says, he's probably a young man with a poetic, imaginative and affectionate nature.
44:17
And we're like, yes.
44:18
Yeah.
44:19
Dolphins, majestic, affectionate.
44:21
Oh, so, you know, yeah.
44:24
And it says, but he might not be dependable.
44:27
And then this part, this is what it is.
44:30
Okay.
44:31
He's not what he seems.
44:33
He may not even know himself who he is.
44:37
Even if his intentions are good, he can't fulfill them.
44:41
Yeah.
44:42
That part, that's the part that I feel like I've heard some sneaky stories about dolphins.
44:46
Should we do a dolphin episode?
44:49
I mean, if I can find something about dolphin crimes, I mean, we have Pacific Northwest
44:56
dolphins.
44:57
So it'll connect.
45:00
Stands to reason.
45:01
Surely there is a dolphin out there committing crimes.
45:03
Yeah.
45:04
I think so.
45:05
I think so.
45:06
Hopefully, it's not murdering its children.
45:09
You know, God.
45:10
I know.
45:11
Can we all just agree to not ever do that again?
45:14
Like, it'll be so great.
45:17
Is that hard?
45:18
Yeah.
45:19
I mean, we know everyone listening.
45:21
Would never do that.
45:23
I know.
45:24
Here's the thing.
45:25
I just, as someone who is intentionally child-free, I cannot fathom.
45:36
It goes against every biological impulse that we are wired with.
45:42
And it's truly, it's baffling and maddening.
45:49
It is though, but then I think about, like, this isn't not, it will not like an, I'm not
45:54
about to make like an example.
45:55
Where are we going?
45:57
Not like that.
45:58
But I think about, like, postpartum depression and then the mothers who go from that who
46:03
like want to murder their children and some of them actually do.
46:07
Yeah.
46:08
It's like, obviously, there's some chemical thing going on in the brain.
46:11
And I think with like PTSD or like very severe cases of depression, whether it's, you know,
46:18
postpartum or whatever the case may be, it's like, we understand like the chemical mechanism,
46:27
I guess is what I would say, but you can't, you still can't really wrap your head around
46:32
it.
46:33
It's hard.
46:34
It's hard.
46:35
It makes sense.
46:36
And that's kind of, I'm like, listen, I don't even want kids.
46:38
But like the idea of, I cannot fad, it does not compute.
46:45
No.
46:46
Error 404.
46:47
Which is like, if you're having those thoughts and feelings, you need to be responsible
46:53
and go seek help.
46:55
And hopefully the people around you, you know, get you that help.
46:58
Yeah.
46:59
And support in a way that keeps everybody safe.
47:03
Yeah.
47:04
And I feel like, you know, we talk about like men, not trying to say obviously, what's that
47:10
other word?
47:11
Often, often.
47:12
I mean, I mean, I do think there's a lot of, there's still a lot of stigma in maybe not
47:25
every community.
47:27
But I think a lot of communities, you know, whether it's national or a gym, whether it's
47:32
like, you know, other types of specific community, I think gender plays a really big role in
47:38
military communities.
47:39
Yeah.
47:40
There's so many different types or groups of people that like experience the stigma around
47:46
mental health in really significant ways.
47:49
And it's detrimental.
47:50
Man.
47:51
At a certain point, you just like kind of run out of words to say, you just kind of, like
47:59
do these people even know like what's going on?
48:02
But they don't actually want to do this.
48:04
It's just something wrong that I don't know.
48:05
It's wild to like think about, think about, I always think about myself in that position.
48:11
Like what if there's a certain one day where I just snap and I want to murder everyone,
48:14
but like, you know that's not me, everyone else knows that's not me.
48:18
But like, what if something just goes wrong up there?
48:21
It's, yeah, very scary.
48:23
And those are intrusive thoughts that I have.
48:26
Yeah.
48:27
Yeah.
48:28
But I mean, situations like this, it can make you kind of fearful of like even if not for
48:34
yourself, you're like, what if, you know, someone you know, like the idea of like this happening
48:42
just really, it just sets your mind off in so many different directions and none of them
48:49
are good.
48:50
Yeah.
48:51
It's sad.
48:52
It's very sad.
48:53
I hope that their mother and the rest of their surviving family is just, I really hope they
48:59
are just receiving an overwhelming amount of, you know, just an outreaching outpouring of
49:06
support from all of their different communities.
49:11
And the parallels to the Powell case that was like, oh my god, I can't believe I'm going
49:15
to talk about something that's like, it's so similar in so many ways, like immediately.
49:21
Again, I was like, oh my god, okay, we're not talking about anything where there's a child
49:25
within 500 miles for like a while after this.
49:29
Good.
49:30
Except I'm probably lying.
49:32
We'll see.
49:34
But you know, in the case of Susan Powell, it's like the loss that her family felt losing
49:40
her is just compounded by the loss of the children.
49:44
And in this case, it's like, you know, for Whitney, the loss of her three kids is compounded
49:50
by the fact that now she has to live with that forever.
49:55
Just, just awful.
49:56
I'm just making a sad face now because I can't, I know because I can't, because my face doesn't
50:03
know how to make other faces now.
50:05
Are we done with whatever this is now?
50:07
I know.
50:08
I'm so sorry.
50:09
Yes.
50:10
I think it's time to say goodbye to people and you did show me their picture and they were
50:16
like, sweetest little baby angels I ever did see.
50:20
You know, with their little space buns.
50:23
My god.
50:24
Space buns.
50:25
Have a creepy ass day.
50:29
We'll see you next Thursday.
50:32
Because we do this on Thursdays now.
50:34
We do.
50:35
Did you hear?
50:36
Uh huh.
50:37
Okay, bye.
50:38
Have you heard the news?
50:39
It's such a song or day.
50:40
Just make that up.
50:42
There's gotta be a song that goes, have you heard the news?
50:45
I have.
50:46
I have indeed.
50:47
Okay, I'm stopping now.
50:48
I didn't like to candle.
50:49
Do you have a lighter?
50:50
I mean, I have like two things of match.
50:51
Is here.
50:52
That's not something we'd play around with.
50:54
I'm not.
50:55
Are we sure we won't pass you the play around with that?
50:57
I mean, I've never been less sure about anything in my life, but here we are.
51:14
Oh, that's hardly a success story.
51:17
I broke it, but it also lit, and then I dropped it.
51:22
I think that lives in there now.
51:24
I dropped it again.
51:26
Why is this so hard?
51:28
Okay.
51:29
Okay, we're not going to get scared and drop the light.
51:32
The lighter.
51:33
What is it?
51:34
Just be calm.
51:35
You know, I did it.
51:37
Oh, my god.
51:38
This was a lesson.
51:40
Just be calm, y'all.
51:41
And then you get stuff done.
51:43
It's a miracle.
51:44
I guess.
51:45
I'm embarrassed.