Latest / Sid & Friends In The Morning / Andrew Giuliani | Executive Director of the Task Force for the World Cup Celebrates a Big Win
Transcript
- 0:00Speaker 1: Brian kill mead, him and Julianni the faces of this
- 0:03Speaker 1: amazing World Cup Soccer tournament. Look, Brian very simply, Spain
- 0:08Speaker 1: was the best and bop eight nothing, Messi nothing shut
- 0:12Speaker 1: out both of those two high powered offensive teams in
- 0:16Speaker 1: France and Argentina, so clearly they were the best team.
- 0:20Speaker 1: What were your thoughts though on yesterday's final game?
- 0:23Speaker 2: They still Argentine was everything you said is correct, and
- 0:25Speaker 2: still Argentina had a shot at the end, two of them,
- 0:28Speaker 2: you know, and they still had a shot to tie
- 0:30Speaker 2: it up now down a man. So I think that
- 0:33Speaker 2: it was an exciting game. If you just said, well
- 0:35Speaker 2: zero zero was boring, you didn't watch it really wasn't.
- 0:38Speaker 2: I mean, you saw physical play, you saw great opportunities
- 0:43Speaker 2: and chances created. You didn't see anything from Messi. He
- 0:46Speaker 2: tried to move to the outside when there was nothing
- 0:48Speaker 2: in the middle, and then they couldn't get him the
- 0:50Speaker 2: ball outside because their midfield was dominated by Spain's midfield.
- 0:54Speaker 2: Midfield are the guys that set you up, so you
- 0:57Speaker 2: need that ball placed in a spot that's gonna allow
- 1:01Speaker 2: you to build in the offensive third. So he wasn't
- 1:05Speaker 2: getting the ball, so we moved out wide, got additional space,
- 1:08Speaker 2: and they just shut him down because I think that
- 1:11Speaker 2: everyone talks about the back line of the Spain, but
- 1:14Speaker 2: their midfield is actually better. And when you control the
- 1:17Speaker 2: ball at midfield, your back line doesn't even have to
- 1:19Speaker 2: be as good. So together they did listen to this
- 1:22Speaker 2: sid you got a no dominance. They won the under
- 1:24Speaker 2: twenty threes. Their favored to win the Olympics. That's what
- 1:28Speaker 2: the under twenty three team is. That's the only difference
- 1:29Speaker 2: in the Olympics. In World Cup, you gotta be under
- 1:31Speaker 2: twenty three with I think three exemptions for overage players.
- 1:35Speaker 2: So they won that, They won the European Championship, they
- 1:38Speaker 2: won the World Cup, and now the women are the
- 1:42Speaker 2: reigning World Cup champions. So if successfu leaves clues, let's
- 1:45Speaker 2: find out what they're doing. We now got this great
- 1:47Speaker 2: facility in Atlanta, cutting edge, as good as any in
- 1:50Speaker 2: the world. Now of Arthur Blank rote a check, Ken
- 1:53Speaker 2: Griffin wrote a check. Us soccer raised a ton of money.
- 1:56Speaker 2: Now there's gonna be kids of all ages training residencies.
- 2:00Speaker 2: It's going to be as good as anywhere. So Spain
- 2:04Speaker 2: settled in in twenty ten. They said we're going to
- 2:06Speaker 2: restructure our program, and it resulted in huge progress. And
- 2:10Speaker 2: look at where we're at right now. We have the
- 2:12Speaker 2: athletes we could do it.
- 2:13Speaker 1: What about my friend Andrew Giuliani, He was on Would
- 2:16Speaker 1: Kill Me yesterday morning on Box News. He was great
- 2:19Speaker 1: Life from Giant Stadium. What an unbelievable job Giuliani did.
- 2:25Speaker 1: And this was no small effort. I mean, getting all
- 2:28Speaker 1: these venues, getting all the games there, getting the fans
- 2:31Speaker 1: in all the terrorist issues he had to deal with
- 2:35Speaker 1: security and all that, and this thing went off flying colors.
- 2:40Speaker 1: You know, I know that Klay Travis said it last
- 2:42Speaker 1: week and President Trump has already said it yesterday. We
- 2:45Speaker 1: ought to have this event in America every time. And
- 2:48Speaker 1: the guy that should be in charge because he proved it,
- 2:51Speaker 1: is my friend Andrew Giuliani, who joined me from the
- 2:54Speaker 1: airport this morning. Andrew, take a bow, buddy, What an
- 2:57Speaker 1: amazing job. Congratulations.
- 3:00Speaker 3: Well thank you, Sid. You know, and I have the
- 3:02Speaker 3: opportunity to address my team last night, and I told
- 3:05Speaker 3: him that, you know, Spain obviously was the best team
- 3:08Speaker 3: at this World Cup, lifting the trophy, as you said,
- 3:11Speaker 3: beating Mambape, beating MESSI. But even Spain. The team that
- 3:15Speaker 3: won the World Cup let in a goal. The US
- 3:18Speaker 3: government of the last forty days did not let in
- 3:20Speaker 3: one goal. And that's what made this World Cup shine.
- 3:23Speaker 3: All the work, all the dedication done by all these
- 3:26Speaker 3: federal employees over the last forty days really more than
- 3:30Speaker 3: that last year and a half, really, since President Trump
- 3:33Speaker 3: came back into office, since his vision that he you know,
- 3:37Speaker 3: set out for in twenty eighteen to land this World Cup,
- 3:40Speaker 3: it's been able to be executed through two different government
- 3:43Speaker 3: shutdowns to be able to go and put on an
- 3:46Speaker 3: event like this where the world could see truly American
- 3:50Speaker 3: exceptionalism over these last forty days. You know, and I
- 3:54Speaker 3: got the job President's Trump and interviewed with him the
- 3:57Speaker 3: very first time on it. You know, President's and he's
- 4:00Speaker 3: a man who's very busy. So you better have a
- 4:02Speaker 3: really good elevator pitch ready to go when you walk
- 4:04Speaker 3: into that Oval office. You better be ready to go,
- 4:07Speaker 3: because you know what, when he sees me, he wants
- 4:08Speaker 3: to talk about sid Rosenberg, or he's got a deal
- 4:12Speaker 3: with Putin on something or something like that. So I said,
- 4:14Speaker 3: you know what, I'm going to get about fifteen seconds
- 4:16Speaker 3: to talk about soccer. What's my pitch to President Trump?
- 4:20Speaker 3: And the pitch was simply this, sir, you're not going
- 4:23Speaker 3: to have a larger platform than the World Cup to
- 4:26Speaker 3: be able to show off American exceptionalism over our first
- 4:29Speaker 3: two hundred and fifty years and the hope and promise
- 4:33Speaker 3: our freedom's offer over the next two hundred and fifty years,
- 4:36Speaker 3: not just to the United States of America, not just
- 4:38Speaker 3: to our citizens, but to all those freedom loving people
- 4:42Speaker 3: around the world. And he was interested. He liked it.
- 4:45Speaker 3: And then and then he asked me, well, what about
- 4:47Speaker 3: your friend sid how's you doing it? Said, he's the
- 4:49Speaker 3: best radios in the world. And that's what actually landed
- 4:51Speaker 3: me the job.
- 4:51Speaker 1: So did you play coup with Trump in that ring
- 4:55Speaker 1: storm at bedmns you're supposed to one Saturday morning? Did
- 4:58Speaker 1: you guys end up playing?
- 5:00Speaker 3: We didn't. We ended up hanging out for a couple hours,
- 5:02Speaker 3: which was which is just as good because we could
- 5:04Speaker 3: talk through kind of a bunch of the things that
- 5:06Speaker 3: happened throughout the course of this World Cup, give him
- 5:08Speaker 3: a little context for the next day, and obviously him
- 5:13Speaker 3: being in the box there with Shinebaum and the King
- 5:15Speaker 3: and Queen of Spain and the Arnie and what it
- 5:19Speaker 3: was going to look like and walk him through that,
- 5:21Speaker 3: and it was you know, it was really really wonderful
- 5:25Speaker 3: to be able to discuss kind of what the vision
- 5:27Speaker 3: was going back to twenty eighteen, how he landed it
- 5:30Speaker 3: navigating through the politics of soccer, which actually I got
- 5:33Speaker 3: to tell you, as you know, Sid, I've spent you know,
- 5:35Speaker 3: most of my life really almost out of the womb
- 5:38Speaker 3: in politics. There's as much politics in soccer as there
- 5:40Speaker 3: isn't almost anything else. And he now navigated it really,
- 5:44Speaker 3: really incredibly well. And he allowed us, right, I mean,
- 5:48Speaker 3: when you work for the president, there's a certain way
- 5:54Speaker 3: that you can ultimately utilize your leverage, but you need
- 5:56Speaker 3: to ultimately know where the president stands if you're going
- 5:59Speaker 3: to be able to do that to accomplish things. And
- 6:01Speaker 3: I got to tell you, his leadership, his intelligence on
- 6:05Speaker 3: this stuff, he allowed us to do so many great things.
- 6:07Speaker 3: It's going to really be helpful for the legacy of
- 6:09Speaker 3: America going forward. Just think I was talking to Bobcraft
- 6:13Speaker 3: a couple days ago. He was talking about the New
- 6:15Speaker 3: England Patriots, already discussing with Scotland playing Patriot games over
- 6:19Speaker 3: in Scotland, the Norwegians, their love for the United States
- 6:24Speaker 3: where they're going to row to next. The legacy just
- 6:27Speaker 3: really starts right now of this twenty twenty six World Cup.
- 6:31Speaker 3: It starts with tourism. It starts with the renewed love
- 6:34Speaker 3: of the United States of America, seeing how great our
- 6:37Speaker 3: country truly is cutting through the media said you could
- 6:41Speaker 3: say it. I'm a government employee now, but it begins
- 6:43Speaker 3: with B and ends with.
- 6:44Speaker 1: Syah the bullshit, And you're right, and I think you
- 6:47Speaker 1: said it on this show and with Kill Mead and
- 6:50Speaker 1: many many times that Americans fell in love with the
- 6:54Speaker 1: World Cup and the world fell in love with America.
- 6:58Speaker 3: God, I love that. It's it's true. I mean really,
- 7:02Speaker 3: it's true. And you saw it in all the stories, right.
- 7:04Speaker 3: You saw it with the Norwegians, you saw it with
- 7:08Speaker 3: you saw with the Japanese, the respect cleaning up the stadiums.
- 7:12Speaker 3: You just kept seeing it. And even though and I
- 7:14Speaker 3: gotta tell you, the British press might be the worst
- 7:16Speaker 3: group of press that I've ever seen and makes MSNBC
- 7:19Speaker 3: look like they're right of sid Rosenberg, and even they
- 7:24Speaker 3: the Foreign Press Center briefing on Friday even they couldn't
- 7:28Speaker 3: find things to criticize the United States about over this period.
- 7:31Speaker 3: And I think you're right, right, I mean the World
- 7:34Speaker 3: Cup and if FIFA's gonna look at the numbers that
- 7:36Speaker 3: they made, we're gonna look at the numbers that we made.
- 7:38Speaker 3: We'll get back together in September talk about some debriefs
- 7:42Speaker 3: what this looked like. But you know, they're projected to
- 7:45Speaker 3: make about four and a half to five times the
- 7:47Speaker 3: amount of revenue off of this World Cup as they
- 7:51Speaker 3: made off the previous World Cup. That's an incredible number.
- 7:54Speaker 3: Generally you look for about a thirty or forty percent
- 7:57Speaker 3: growth perspective, maybe over a four year period, that numbers
- 8:00Speaker 3: a little over fifty percent. You're talking about three to
- 8:03Speaker 3: four hundred percent. Unbelievable when you look at it, And
- 8:06Speaker 3: that really is because of how great our country is.
- 8:11Speaker 1: It really is true, and that's why I forgave you
- 8:14Speaker 1: for sticking me up. On Saturday night. There I was
- 8:17Speaker 1: with Joe piscopol and Scott Lebato and Frank Morano and
- 8:20Speaker 1: beed misson going where the hell is Andrew Giuliani Now
- 8:23Speaker 1: worked out okay because President and Trump singled me out
- 8:25Speaker 1: and made a big deal about me to your point, Andrew,
- 8:28Speaker 1: but I did miss you one Saturday night, but it's okay.
- 8:30Speaker 1: You were kind of busy. I guess is there anything
- 8:33Speaker 1: about this tournament when you look back now, because again
- 8:36Speaker 1: I gave you an a plus plus plus plus. I
- 8:39Speaker 1: don't know how you could have done a better job.
- 8:41Speaker 1: There were no issues. Even the traffic wasn't nearly as
- 8:43Speaker 1: bad as New Jersey wanted it to be, thank god,
- 8:46Speaker 1: not one, not one security concern. All these games went
- 8:50Speaker 1: up and flying callers, every c did a fantastic job.
- 8:53Speaker 1: When you look back, was there anything that you thought
- 8:55Speaker 1: maybe could have been a little better or not?
- 8:57Speaker 3: Really? You know, they're always little details. But I think
- 9:01Speaker 3: the beautiful thing is those little details stayed kind of
- 9:04Speaker 3: below the surface, right, And that's really when you're talking
- 9:07Speaker 3: about running an event of this magnitude. There are always
- 9:11Speaker 3: going to be different things, last minute changes, dealing with
- 9:14Speaker 3: the Iranians, let's say, dealing with ebola breaking out in
- 9:18Speaker 3: the Democratic Republic of the Congo, and how do you
- 9:21Speaker 3: make sure that that doesn't come to our shorts. How
- 9:23Speaker 3: do you work with Canada and Mexico to make sure
- 9:26Speaker 3: that their health policies are in line with our title
- 9:29Speaker 3: forty two health policies. So that way, when the DRC
- 9:32Speaker 3: plays the second game in Guadalajara or Monterey, one of
- 9:35Speaker 3: those two Mexican cities, and they come back with Portugal
- 9:40Speaker 3: comes back to Mexico, let's say, or it comes back
- 9:42Speaker 3: to Miami after playing them, they're not going to bring
- 9:44Speaker 3: in Ebola with it. So, I mean, there were all
- 9:48Speaker 3: different kinds of challenges, all different kinds of things where
- 9:50Speaker 3: you have to adjust all audibles. But that's really the
- 9:54Speaker 3: incredible team that President Trump was able to build that
- 9:56Speaker 3: we were able to deal with that call those audibles,
- 10:00Speaker 3: look ahead, really see ultimately the problem set before it
- 10:04Speaker 3: even came to our shores, and deal with it then,
- 10:06Speaker 3: so that way people could really just sit back and
- 10:09Speaker 3: enjoy it. Really is amazing when you think about it.
- 10:11Speaker 3: I kept looking at different events, right Obviously, when you
- 10:14Speaker 3: think about major events, and you think about terrorist events,
- 10:17Speaker 3: you think about Munich in seventy two, that's one that
- 10:19Speaker 3: obviously pops to the top of mind. Think about Atlanta
- 10:22Speaker 3: in nineteen ninety six. And as I got this job,
- 10:25Speaker 3: I realized that the goal of this was going to
- 10:27Speaker 3: be how do we make sure that this world Cup
- 10:30Speaker 3: is defined by something that's on the field. We don't
- 10:33Speaker 3: want it something off of you. We don't want a
- 10:35Speaker 3: security in SID something like it happened at Copa America
- 10:38Speaker 3: two years ago when you had thirty thousand people for
- 10:41Speaker 3: the final rushing the gates over here. But SID, this
- 10:44Speaker 3: is one of the things that I even underrated. I
- 10:46Speaker 3: kept saying that if we're talking about the great play
- 10:49Speaker 3: on the field at the end of this, then we've
- 10:51Speaker 3: done our job. But it's even better than that, because
- 10:53Speaker 3: we're talking about just how much the world, as you said,
- 10:58Speaker 3: loves the United States of America, and we still with
- 11:00Speaker 3: all these different countries coming here. It was amazing. That's true.
- 11:02Speaker 1: They don't want to leave. How many games do you
- 11:04Speaker 1: estimate you actually went to over this period of time.
- 11:08Speaker 3: So the funny thing was, and I actually was working
- 11:09Speaker 3: at WABC during the last World Cup, and I watched
- 11:13Speaker 3: more soccer during that World Cup, But then I did
- 11:15Speaker 3: this World Cup. I didn't go to guitar just a
- 11:18Speaker 3: matter of when you're there. I probably went to call
- 11:21Speaker 3: it a dozen to fifteen matches something like that, was
- 11:25Speaker 3: in every single city multiple times. But you're moving around
- 11:28Speaker 3: so much. You're in the Mercy Operations Center. You're going
- 11:31Speaker 3: you're meeting with these diplomats. You're going to take a
- 11:34Speaker 3: look at counter uas because something just came into the airspace.
- 11:37Speaker 3: So ultimately, that's really what the day ends up looking like.
- 11:41Speaker 3: And so I look forward to enjoying kind of some
- 11:44Speaker 3: of the highlights of this over the next couple of days.
- 11:47Speaker 3: I'll go through and look back and watch the fifteen
- 11:50Speaker 3: minute recap of this match and really seeing what happens
- 11:54Speaker 3: after the match. Is that beauty, right, people singing John
- 11:56Speaker 3: Denver coming together. Remember one moment that really struck me,
- 11:59Speaker 3: which was really amazing. It was at the end of
- 12:02Speaker 3: the England Ghana match up in Boston and I'm about
- 12:06Speaker 3: to leave and I hear Country Road being sung, But
- 12:10Speaker 3: I knew the English should already left. The Ghanies were
- 12:12Speaker 3: still there singing John Denver country Road.
- 12:15Speaker 1: In Country Roads. Yeah, unbelievable, unbelievably. So do you think
- 12:20Speaker 1: I know President Trump reached out immediately and said, we
- 12:23Speaker 1: want this again. I know in four years we ain't
- 12:26Speaker 1: gonna get it, but do you think it's a real
- 12:28Speaker 1: possibility that we can host this World Cup again sooner
- 12:32Speaker 1: than later?
- 12:33Speaker 3: Well, I will say, I know the next World S
- 12:35Speaker 3: Up is spoken for by Portugal, Spain, Morocco, and then
- 12:39Speaker 3: the one after that the Saudi's landed in twenty thirty four.
- 12:43Speaker 3: So I really think twenty thirty eight is a very
- 12:45Speaker 3: real possibilit twenty thirty eight, twenty forty two, I think
- 12:49Speaker 3: it's a real possibility. And I said this when they
- 12:51Speaker 3: were asking about the see for President Johnny Infantino, and
- 12:54Speaker 3: they were saying, well, what do you think about his leadership?
- 12:57Speaker 3: And I said, look, he's the one who ultimately looked
- 13:00Speaker 3: and said the United States is a place where we
- 13:02Speaker 3: can go and maximize our product. And that's really what
- 13:06Speaker 3: they've done. But the beautiful thing is we've had this
- 13:09Speaker 3: opportunity to show ourselves American hospitality of the world. The
- 13:13Speaker 3: thing that I think a lot of people think when
- 13:16Speaker 3: they think about the United States, if you're an international visitors, well,
- 13:19Speaker 3: they're not welcoming because of illegal immigration. Right. You have
- 13:22Speaker 3: the media sometimes that tries to conflate the two of those.
- 13:25Speaker 3: It's actually the exact opposite, And we prove that this
- 13:28Speaker 3: time more than anything, is that hey, look, just because
- 13:31Speaker 3: we don't want bad actors coming in the country, and
- 13:33Speaker 3: just because we care about knowing who's coming to our
- 13:36Speaker 3: soores does not mean that America is not the most
- 13:39Speaker 3: welcoming country in the world. We want people to come
- 13:42Speaker 3: to the United States of America. That's going to add
- 13:44Speaker 3: to this world. That's going to add to the American experience.
- 13:47Speaker 3: It's going to bring discretionary income. It's going to add
- 13:50Speaker 3: to this incredible American experiment over our next two hundred
- 13:54Speaker 3: and fifty years. That's that balance that President Trump plays.
- 13:57Speaker 3: And that's really the ideals of America first America versus
- 14:01Speaker 3: never America only.
- 14:03Speaker 1: That's right.
- 14:03Speaker 3: It's American ideals first. That's right.
- 14:05Speaker 1: Oh boy, you said that. Well, two more cook ones,
- 14:07Speaker 1: I'll let you go. How often did you speak the
- 14:09Speaker 1: cash Patel about keeping our places safe?
- 14:13Speaker 3: I spoke more over the last forty days to Secretary
- 14:16Speaker 3: Mullen and to Cash Patel than I did my wife.
- 14:19Speaker 3: And for the help of my marriage, let's just open August.
- 14:22Speaker 3: That's not the case as well.
- 14:25Speaker 1: Oh, poor de Ze, she must be happy it's over.
- 14:27Speaker 1: I'm sure she misses you, you know. On the way out.
- 14:31Speaker 1: Argentina got shut out yesterday. And look, Spain was a defensive,
- 14:35Speaker 1: dominant force the whole time. Again, they shut out France
- 14:38Speaker 1: and Amboppi. They wanted to score six four goals, I'm sorry,
- 14:40Speaker 1: and a six to four loss to England on Saturday
- 14:43Speaker 1: and Puppy scored about ten goals.
- 14:45Speaker 3: I don't know what it was.
- 14:46Speaker 1: And Messi was right there too. He came in second
- 14:48Speaker 1: and goal scoring, So to me, there was not an
- 14:51Speaker 1: indictment yesterday of Messi. But but he is thirty nine
- 14:54Speaker 1: years old. The next time the World Cup comes, he'll
- 14:57Speaker 1: be forty three. Now, he's still scoring a lot of
- 15:00Speaker 1: goals in Miami in the MLS and again he came
- 15:03Speaker 1: in second in goal scoring in this tournament. But there's
- 15:07Speaker 1: a fear from the people who do love this sport
- 15:10Speaker 1: in this country that we may have seen the last
- 15:12Speaker 1: of Messi in World Cup action yesterday.
- 15:16Speaker 3: What do you think, Well, I'm gonna take all the
- 15:18Speaker 3: drama out of this right here, because I'm gonna tell
- 15:20Speaker 3: you what's gonna happen. Not because I have you know,
- 15:23Speaker 3: any inside information on this, but I just I could
- 15:26Speaker 3: feel and I have a feeling of what's going to happen.
- 15:28Speaker 3: For three years, we're going to talk about we've seen
- 15:31Speaker 3: Messi's last World Cup. We've seen Messi's last World Cup.
- 15:34Speaker 3: But this guy, he's still such a great competitor. I
- 15:36Speaker 3: got to tell you, the way he scored those two
- 15:39Speaker 3: goals in the semi finals, there are few people in
- 15:41Speaker 3: the world that could do that. I get My bet
- 15:44Speaker 3: is he plays in one more World Cup in twenty thirty,
- 15:48Speaker 3: He's going to be still a good player at that point.
- 15:50Speaker 3: Will he still be one of the greatest couple players
- 15:52Speaker 3: in the world like he is now? I don't know,
- 15:54Speaker 3: But will he still be a value add I think
- 15:57Speaker 3: absolutely he will be. And the truth is, you know,
- 16:00Speaker 3: well when I saw him those last couple of minutes
- 16:02Speaker 3: in that semi final, he really reminded me of Michael Jordan.
- 16:05Speaker 3: Right he drew the double team and he kicked the
- 16:07Speaker 3: ball over to John Paxton and he buried it there
- 16:09Speaker 3: and then the cross right on the forehead really really impressive. Look,
- 16:13Speaker 3: the truth is, this Spain team was just by far
- 16:16Speaker 3: the best team in the world. They were able to
- 16:18Speaker 3: prove it. You could see just how much faster they
- 16:21Speaker 3: were than Argentina. Who I mean, look, they worthy got
- 16:25Speaker 3: to the finals. There was no fluke that they got there.
- 16:27Speaker 3: They just were the best team in the world.
- 16:29Speaker 1: Well, Argentina had to come back on winning. They were chilling,
- 16:31Speaker 1: even Cap Burdie. I think at one point they certainly
- 16:33Speaker 1: trailed England and others. And then you rate Andrew again. Congratulations,
- 16:38Speaker 1: you made a soccer fan out of me. I mean
- 16:40Speaker 1: I talk about this event like I'm freaking Alexi Lallas.
- 16:42Speaker 1: Who would have thought that you really did great? My friend?
- 16:47Speaker 1: I knew you would. I always had the confidence, but
- 16:49Speaker 1: to actually see it now complete. Like I said at
- 16:52Speaker 1: the top of this conversation, take a bow, Andrew Giuliani, Congratulations,
- 16:57Speaker 1: amazing job. I love you. Thank you so much.
- 17:00Speaker 3: Thank You're the best.
- 17:01Speaker 1: You really ought to. Thank you Andrew Giuliani right there,
- 17:03Speaker 1: What an amazing job this kid just did with this
- 17:06Speaker 1: immense responsibility the World Cup. It's over Spain wins, but
- 17:12Speaker 1: he thinks, and I agree, we have not seen.
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