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#011_ How To Build Awesome Habits · INSPIRE STORY

0:24
Speaker 1: Congrats on the book. Yeah, thanks, you've been through it,
0:27
Speaker 1: you know, but yeah it was. I mean it took
0:30
Speaker 1: me three years from start to finish, and then it
0:33
Speaker 1: also just uh for your first one. There's so much
0:37
Speaker 1: learning that goes into it, like some pretty much every
0:40
Speaker 1: part of the process. I'm flying blind and just learning
0:43
Speaker 1: as I go. So, uh, there's that what's that called
0:46
Speaker 1: Hofsteader's law where it's like everything takes twice as long
0:49
Speaker 1: as you expect, even if you take this into account.
0:52
Speaker 2: Yeah, certainly publishing your life, Oh my god, the timelines
0:57
Speaker 2: on this thing are insane, you know. So it's quite
0:59
Speaker 2: it's quite something. It's a huge accomplishment. The book is great.
1:03
Speaker 2: And excited to break it down with you. Manah cool, thanks,
1:05
Speaker 2: thanks for coming out here today. I think the best
1:09
Speaker 2: way to launch into it is to define our terms.
1:13
Speaker 2: I mean, let's talk about before we even get into
1:16
Speaker 2: the nuances of all of this, Like, let's just define
1:19
Speaker 2: what a habit is.
1:21
Speaker 1: Sure, so there are a couple of ways to think
1:23
Speaker 1: about it, but I would say, just quick definition, a
1:26
Speaker 1: habit is a behavior that has been repeated enough times
1:29
Speaker 1: to be performed more or less automatically, so you can
1:32
Speaker 1: do it pretty much an autopilot. But another way to
1:34
Speaker 1: think about it, I think this is a useful way
1:36
Speaker 1: to define a habit is that as you go through life,
1:40
Speaker 1: you face different problems, and some of those problems are
1:42
Speaker 1: big and some of them are small, like you need
1:44
Speaker 1: to tie your shoes, And whenever you face a problem,
1:48
Speaker 1: your brain starts looking for solutions to that, And as
1:52
Speaker 1: you come across solutions to the recurring problems in life,
1:56
Speaker 1: you start to automate those. And so every morning you
1:59
Speaker 1: wake up up and you put your shoes on, and
2:01
Speaker 1: you've got this little problem that you need to solve,
2:03
Speaker 1: and pretty soon after you tie your shoes one hundred
2:05
Speaker 1: times or five hundred times or thousand times, you can
2:07
Speaker 1: do it pretty much without thinking. And so that's another
2:10
Speaker 1: way of thinking about habits is that there are kind
2:11
Speaker 1: of these like automatic solutions we fall into for whatever
2:15
Speaker 1: the recurring problems are we face.
2:17
Speaker 2: Right, behavior that becomes habituated.
2:19
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you know, like they're The interesting thing about
2:22
Speaker 1: this is you don't necessarily have to have the same
2:26
Speaker 1: habit to solve a recurring problem. Like if you come
2:28
Speaker 1: home from work each day and you feel stressed and exhausted.
2:32
Speaker 1: One person might play video games for an hour, and
2:35
Speaker 1: that's a way to resolve that problem. So they get
2:37
Speaker 1: in the habit of doing it and they just walk
2:39
Speaker 1: over the controller. They don't even think about it. Another
2:41
Speaker 1: person might go for a run for twenty minutes or
2:43
Speaker 1: meditate for ten minutes. A third person might smoke a cigarette,
2:47
Speaker 1: and all of those are just solutions to that problem
2:50
Speaker 1: that you're facing. And that I think is another powerful
2:53
Speaker 1: lesson is that your original habit is not necessarily the
2:56
Speaker 1: optimal one. And once you realize that, then it kind
2:59
Speaker 1: of becomes your responsibility to become a little more aware
3:02
Speaker 1: of what those habits are and then think about it.
3:04
Speaker 1: Can you shape them or design them?
3:06
Speaker 2: Right? And so, a habit is the physical manifestation. It's
3:10
Speaker 2: a behavior, the physical manifestation of your psychological makeup, your
3:18
Speaker 2: emotional body, and your conscious or unconscious mind. Right, Like
3:24
Speaker 2: habits flow from what is already built inside of us
3:28
Speaker 2: on some level. Right, So to kind of deconstruct what
3:31
Speaker 2: a habit is, how to change it, what's a good habit,
3:34
Speaker 2: what's a bad habit? How to flow from good to
3:36
Speaker 2: from bad to good? It demands, I would imagine, and
3:40
Speaker 2: you're the expert here you know, a real analysis of
3:44
Speaker 2: like how our brains function, you have to look at psychology,
3:47
Speaker 2: you have to look at neurology, you have to look
3:48
Speaker 2: at the science and understand the human mechanism in its
3:53
Speaker 2: holistic form.
3:55
Speaker 1: I think that's true. And you bring up a really
3:57
Speaker 1: interesting point and one that I wanted to answer think
4:00
Speaker 1: about in the book, because so in the book, I
4:03
Speaker 1: lay out this four stage model for how habits work.
4:06
Speaker 1: And the reason the second stage is there, it's all
4:09
Speaker 1: about craving and prediction. In other words, like you come
4:11
Speaker 1: across a queue or some kind of context, and then
4:13
Speaker 1: you interpret it in a certain way. And that's where
4:16
Speaker 1: we're getting to this point that you're just making, which
4:17
Speaker 1: is that the habit only comes after. The habit is
4:20
Speaker 1: the behavior that follows your prediction or your interpretation of
4:25
Speaker 1: how you should act in a given context. And you know,
4:29
Speaker 1: for one person, they might see their couch as the
4:31
Speaker 1: place where they read for an hour each night, and
4:33
Speaker 1: so their interpretation of that context is I should open
4:36
Speaker 1: up a book. For another person, they might see the
4:39
Speaker 1: couches the place where they turn on Netflix for an
4:41
Speaker 1: hour and eat a bowl of ice cream. And so
4:43
Speaker 1: that's a different interpretation of the same physical cue. And
4:47
Speaker 1: so in that way, habits kind of follow. They're this
4:50
Speaker 1: lagging measure of how you predict you should respond to
4:54
Speaker 1: the different context in your life.
4:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I like how you couch it in the
4:58
Speaker 2: context of of habits being a solution to a problem,
5:03
Speaker 2: they're not the problem themselves necessarily, They're a reflection of
5:08
Speaker 2: what's going on inside of us. There's a solution to
5:10
Speaker 2: whatever emotional state it is. I mean, a habit is
5:13
Speaker 2: a way of adapting to an environment or solving a problem.
5:18
Speaker 1: Yes, I think that's right. Yeah, it's a way of
5:20
Speaker 1: solving a recurring problem. You come over it again and again,
5:23
Speaker 1: and then pretty soon you're falling into that pattern. Right.
5:26
Speaker 2: So a lot has been written about habit change. You know,
5:31
Speaker 2: you go to any bookstore, certainly in the airports, there's
5:35
Speaker 2: no shortage of self help primers on how to change
5:39
Speaker 2: our behaviors, how to develop healthy, effective habits. And now
5:44
Speaker 2: you're kind of coming into this sphere with a little
5:46
Speaker 2: bit of a different perspective. So maybe it would make
5:50
Speaker 2: sense to kind of canvas conventional wisdom on habit change,
5:56
Speaker 2: and perhaps you're like different take on how we approach
6:01
Speaker 2: this sure.
6:02
Speaker 1: So I mean I think there are a variety of
6:03
Speaker 1: little insights in the book that are maybe different or
6:06
Speaker 1: just a slightly slightly different angle on the common takes.
6:10
Speaker 1: But I'll just go over some of the big ones
6:12
Speaker 1: real quick. So there are many different fields I drawled
6:18
Speaker 1: on for the book, and I think that I like
6:21
Speaker 1: to call myself idea agnostic. And what I mean is,
6:24
Speaker 1: I don't really care where a good idea comes from
6:25
Speaker 1: as long as it's a good idea practical or useful.
6:28
Speaker 1: So neuroscience, biology, psychology, and so on. But the most
6:32
Speaker 1: common area that people talk about habits in is psychology.
6:36
Speaker 1: And there are kind of two big movements or bodies
6:39
Speaker 1: of research that have happened over the last one hundred years.
6:42
Speaker 1: The first was behavioral psychology, and so this started with
6:45
Speaker 1: classical conditioning like Pavlovs dogs and things like that, and
6:49
Speaker 1: then be F. Skinner's work with kind of a queue,
6:51
Speaker 1: like a light would go on inside the little case, right,
6:54
Speaker 1: and then the rat would press a lever and then
6:56
Speaker 1: they get a pellet in so this kind of linking
6:59
Speaker 1: the pellet to the light, and so you have a
7:01
Speaker 1: queue and then a response and then a reward and
7:04
Speaker 1: Skinner defined this as stimulus response reward. So once you
7:08
Speaker 1: start to link the queue to the reward, they realized
7:11
Speaker 1: they could shape pretty much any kind of action. And
7:15
Speaker 1: do Higgs book Power of Habit and kind of popularized
7:18
Speaker 1: this and brought it back into the modern spotlight and
7:20
Speaker 1: this idea of a que routine and a reward. So
7:22
Speaker 1: that's the first kind of major area. The second is
7:26
Speaker 1: cognitive psychology, and this kind of took off in like
7:29
Speaker 1: the fifties and sixties and has continued into the modern day.
7:32
Speaker 1: But psychologists started playing with what Skinner put together and
7:36
Speaker 1: realized that, well, it wasn't just the queue and the
7:38
Speaker 1: reward that shape people's behavior. Also our thoughts and moods
7:43
Speaker 1: and emotions, our beliefs, kind of our internal states shape
7:47
Speaker 1: behavior too. And this was a question that I kind
7:50
Speaker 1: of had rolling around in my mind when I started
7:51
Speaker 1: working on atomic habits, was, well, how come the same
7:55
Speaker 1: person will respond to the same queue in a different
7:59
Speaker 1: way at different times? You know, like if I walk
8:02
Speaker 1: into the kitchen and I see a plate of cookies,
8:03
Speaker 1: that's like a visual queue, and in one case I
8:07
Speaker 1: might be like, oh, those look good, I should go
8:08
Speaker 1: eat them. But you can just as easily. Imagine a
8:11
Speaker 1: situation where I just finished eating dinner in the other
8:14
Speaker 1: room and I walk in and I see a plate
8:16
Speaker 1: of cookies and I'm like, oh, I'm stuffed. I don't
8:18
Speaker 1: want to eat anything. So what's going on there? The
8:20
Speaker 1: queue is the same, the reward is the same. Why
8:23
Speaker 1: aren't you taking the same action? And I think it's
8:25
Speaker 1: because of that internal process. You're interpreting the queue differently
8:29
Speaker 1: based on your current state. And so the model that
8:34
Speaker 1: I lay out in the book, of the four different
8:36
Speaker 1: stages that I have it goes through. It tries to
8:38
Speaker 1: combine these two major fields. It includes the queue and
8:41
Speaker 1: the reward because those are important for shaping our behavior,
8:44
Speaker 1: but it also includes an additional stage about our interpretation
8:48
Speaker 1: of the reward because your internal moods and states and
8:51
Speaker 1: feelings can change, and as they do, your behavior does
8:55
Speaker 1: as well. And so I kind of wanted a model
8:57
Speaker 1: that I felt like encapsulated all of that. And that's
9:00
Speaker 1: one of the major differences.
9:01
Speaker 2: Right, So you added two steps to this. Now it's
9:04
Speaker 2: q craving response reward, right, right, And so that allows
9:09
Speaker 2: you to kind of more deeply probe into that that
9:13
Speaker 2: aspect of contextualizing these cues.
9:17
Speaker 1: It actually brings up two I think important things. So
9:20
Speaker 1: the first is the contextualizing the queue, which you just mentioned.
9:24
Speaker 1: It allows us to understand, like why do cues get
9:27
Speaker 1: you to do anything. It's because of how you interpret them.
9:29
Speaker 1: If you believe the cue is attractive, then you take
9:32
Speaker 1: an action. The second thing that it does is it
9:35
Speaker 1: helps clarify what the reward is, like why is something rewarding?
9:40
Speaker 1: Why do you find it rewarding? And one of the
9:43
Speaker 1: reasons is because it satisfies the craving that preceded the action.
9:48
Speaker 1: So one way to put this is that perceived value
9:53
Speaker 1: motivates you to act, actual value motivates you to repeat.
9:57
Speaker 1: So when you buy something on Amazon, you don't actually
10:01
Speaker 1: buy the product like you don't you don't buy the
10:03
Speaker 1: book because you don't actually have it yet. What you
10:06
Speaker 1: buy is the image the product creates in your mind.
10:08
Speaker 1: You buy your expectation or the perceived value of the
10:12
Speaker 1: sales page. It's only after you get the book and
10:15
Speaker 1: you read it and you're like, oh, this is really good.
10:17
Speaker 1: That's when the actual value it satisfies that craving you
10:21
Speaker 1: had before and it reinforces oh, hey, this was enjoyable,
10:24
Speaker 1: I should do it again next time. So you kind
10:26
Speaker 1: of have both of those on each side of the behavior.
10:30
Speaker 2: Cravings that generally derive from very primal, instinctual, reptilian brain
10:37
Speaker 2: instincts that we have, I mean typically, and these function
10:40
Speaker 2: on an unconscious level, and almost everybody, I mean, when
10:44
Speaker 2: you're when you're surfing Amazon and you hit by on
10:47
Speaker 2: something like you said, it's not it's not necessarily driven
10:51
Speaker 2: by this interest in this product advancing you along your trajectory.
10:58
Speaker 2: It's probably more likely because as you feel uncomfortable in
11:01
Speaker 2: that moment, and the dopamine rush of buying that thing
11:06
Speaker 2: will make you feel you know, will change your emotional
11:10
Speaker 2: state and give you some sense of comfort driven by
11:14
Speaker 2: your hormonal state. Right, And this goes back, you know,
11:18
Speaker 2: you talk about this in the book and in the
11:20
Speaker 2: writing that you do, like we want people to love us,
11:24
Speaker 2: we want to be perceived well by others, or we
11:26
Speaker 2: think these material things are gonna you know, fulfill that
11:30
Speaker 2: that spiritual hole that we have, you know, our emotional
11:33
Speaker 2: need and all these drivers function on a level where
11:38
Speaker 2: we're not really aware of how they're impacting our behaviors
11:42
Speaker 2: and habits throughout the day. So how do you kind
11:44
Speaker 2: of think about those things?
11:46
Speaker 1: Well, in a sense, you could say that every behavior
11:50
Speaker 1: is driven by the desire for a change in state.
11:53
Speaker 1: And so when you smoke a cigarette or eat a
11:57
Speaker 1: bag of Dorito's, or pick up your phone, what you
12:00
Speaker 1: want is not the nicotine or the calories from the
12:05
Speaker 1: Dorito's or the likes on social media. What you want
12:10
Speaker 1: is to feel less anxious, or to feel approved, or
12:14
Speaker 1: to not be bored anymore. So it's really the desire
12:18
Speaker 1: to change that state that you're in that motivates you
12:21
Speaker 1: to act and the behavior. And in many cases, a
12:24
Speaker 1: lot of our modern technology as an example of this,
12:27
Speaker 1: you didn't we didn't evolve if you didn't come out
12:29
Speaker 1: of the womb with like a desire to check Instagram, right, Like,
12:32
Speaker 1: there's nothing evolutionarily wired there. It's just a modern manifestation
12:37
Speaker 1: of an ancient desire to gain respect and approval or
12:41
Speaker 1: to not be abandoned by the tribe, or to feel
12:43
Speaker 1: approved in you know, in some capacity. And so we
12:46
Speaker 1: kind of have those like deeper primal drives, and then
12:50
Speaker 1: the secondary layer on top of it is just the
12:53
Speaker 1: modern manifestation of that behavior and how we're resolving in
12:56
Speaker 1: the moment.
12:57
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's really uh, it's interesting that the
13:01
Speaker 2: more this is like a subject matter that's so important
13:04
Speaker 2: because the habits that comprise how we behave and navigate
13:10
Speaker 2: our day are determinative of our entire experience as a
13:14
Speaker 2: human being. Not only do they determine whether we're going
13:18
Speaker 2: to be you know, quote unquote successful or failures, they
13:22
Speaker 2: literally dictate every aspect of our of our experience as humans.
13:28
Speaker 2: So on some level, like there is no subject more
13:31
Speaker 2: important than really understanding how behaviors work. So I applaud
13:37
Speaker 2: you for taking on such a monumental subject like this
13:41
Speaker 2: is not easy to understand, and but I think also
13:45
Speaker 2: it's it's it's something that that we can easily kind
13:49
Speaker 2: of fall prey to intellectualizing and feeling like Okay, I
13:55
Speaker 2: understand this, but yet still find ourselves in care capable
14:00
Speaker 2: of actually implementing the knowledge into the behavior change that
14:04
Speaker 2: you're trying to, you know, sort of speak about and
14:07
Speaker 2: instigate in people.
14:09
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, so, first of all, I totally agree, it
14:12
Speaker 1: was an incredibly difficult topic to choose, especially for my
14:14
Speaker 1: first book. I ended up my solution was to just
14:18
Speaker 1: try to like work harder at it. There was a
14:22
Speaker 1: quote from Elaine de Baton that kind of became my
14:25
Speaker 1: mantra as I worked through, where he says, of many books,
14:28
Speaker 1: a reader thinks this could have been truly great if
14:31
Speaker 1: only the author was willing to suffer a little more.
14:33
Speaker 1: I was like, all right, my life mantra, I guess
14:36
Speaker 1: I just need to suffer a little more. Yeah, but yeah.
14:41
Speaker 1: I ended up writing I think like seven hundred and
14:44
Speaker 1: twenty seven hundred and fifty pages and then cut it
14:46
Speaker 1: down to the final two fifty because it just it
14:49
Speaker 1: ended up the scope of the behavior change and human
14:52
Speaker 1: behavior is just so wide that, you know, anyway I need.
14:56
Speaker 1: I felt like I needed to cover all the bases
14:57
Speaker 1: and then figure out what are the actionable steps. And
15:00
Speaker 1: your point that it's easy to just theorize or get
15:04
Speaker 1: kind of like caught up in your head about this
15:07
Speaker 1: rather than translating into something actionable. I think that's a
15:11
Speaker 1: crucial thing. And it's one thing that I pride myself
15:13
Speaker 1: with my writing is that I try to be scientifically
15:15
Speaker 1: based but also highly actionable. And that was the idea
15:19
Speaker 1: behind the four laws of behavior change that are in
15:21
Speaker 1: the book. Is I wanted to kind of give people
15:23
Speaker 1: like a set of levers or a toolbox that okay, here,
15:26
Speaker 1: like the four levers you can pull to try to
15:28
Speaker 1: make habits easier or to make bad habits harder.
15:31
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I want to get into those those four
15:34
Speaker 2: those four laws. But before we do that, why don't we?
15:38
Speaker 2: I want to I'm interested in what got you interested
15:41
Speaker 2: in this subject matter to begin with. I find that
15:45
Speaker 2: most people who you know, walk that path of becoming
15:50
Speaker 2: obsessed with a certain subject matter or idea tend to
15:53
Speaker 2: be people who are trying to solve that equation for themselves.
15:57
Speaker 2: So is that part of the influence.
16:01
Speaker 1: In a sense, every article I've written and this book
16:04
Speaker 1: is just a reminder to myself. My publisher told me
16:09
Speaker 1: there's something to the effect of, like, we write the
16:11
Speaker 1: books we need ourselves. And that's It's funny because you know,
16:16
Speaker 1: when I write about habits, a lot of people assume
16:18
Speaker 1: that I have my habits so dialed in because I'm
16:20
Speaker 1: the guy writing about right. But I'm writing about it
16:22
Speaker 1: to learn about it, you know, I'm writing about it
16:24
Speaker 1: to try to improve. I consider my readers and myself
16:27
Speaker 1: to be peers, right, We're all just kind of experimenting
16:30
Speaker 1: and operating and working on stuff. And the only difference
16:35
Speaker 1: is I just share the lessons when I learned them.
16:37
Speaker 1: So yeah, I definitely had an internal desire for that.
16:42
Speaker 1: And then there have been a variety of areas in
16:44
Speaker 1: my life where I've had to implement that Athletics, photography, writing,
16:49
Speaker 1: and building a business of course, and all of those
16:51
Speaker 1: have been kind of like test labs for me to
16:54
Speaker 1: put the ideas into press.
16:55
Speaker 2: Right, So why zero went on this on habits?
16:58
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I think that a little bit of it
17:02
Speaker 1: comes back to what you just mentioned a few minutes
17:03
Speaker 1: ago about how important habits are. I didn't know this
17:07
Speaker 1: at first. So I was a baseball player for many years,
17:10
Speaker 1: and as any athlete can tell you, there are all
17:12
Speaker 1: kinds of habits that you have at practice, rituals, things
17:14
Speaker 1: like that, and I was benefiting from that. You know,
17:17
Speaker 1: my strength coach would tell me to do something, or
17:19
Speaker 1: my coaches would hold me accountable to certain habits, and
17:21
Speaker 1: that would help pull the rest of my life in line.
17:23
Speaker 1: You know, I always did better in school when I
17:25
Speaker 1: had sports as well. It would like give me something
17:28
Speaker 1: to anchor my day around. And so I knew that
17:31
Speaker 1: it was working, but I didn't have a language for it,
17:34
Speaker 1: and so it was only until maybe five years after
17:37
Speaker 1: my career ended and I finished graduate school and I
17:39
Speaker 1: started like looking into this stuff a little bit more
17:41
Speaker 1: that I started to come across the science of habit
17:44
Speaker 1: formation and behavior change and developed a language for it
17:49
Speaker 1: and started to write about it. So I kind of
17:51
Speaker 1: implicitly knew it was important, but didn't discover that the
17:54
Speaker 1: actual way to write about until later. Now. The second
17:59
Speaker 1: thing here, though, is that as I dug into the
18:02
Speaker 1: topic more, I started to unearth these layers and realized, Wow,
18:06
Speaker 1: this is actually even more important than I thought. And
18:08
Speaker 1: this comes back to the point that you made a
18:10
Speaker 1: few minutes ago, which is that habits are. One of
18:13
Speaker 1: the phrases I'd like to use is that pretty much
18:15
Speaker 1: any of the results in your life are a lagging
18:17
Speaker 1: measure of your habits. Right, So your weight is a
18:19
Speaker 1: lagging measure of your eating habits, your bank account is
18:22
Speaker 1: a lagging measure of your financial habits. Your clutter is
18:25
Speaker 1: a lagging measure of your cleaning habits. Like the outcomes
18:28
Speaker 1: are just the manifestation of the behaviors that preceded them,
18:34
Speaker 1: So you kind of get what you repeat in that way, Well,
18:37
Speaker 1: that makes sense. People understand that that's important. So that's
18:39
Speaker 1: one reason why habits are crucial. But there's another thing
18:43
Speaker 1: that habits do that is even more central, even more important,
18:48
Speaker 1: and that is that your habits are the way that
18:51
Speaker 1: you embody a particular identity. So every morning that you
18:55
Speaker 1: make your bed, you embody the habits of you. Embody
18:59
Speaker 1: the identity of an organized person, someone who's clean. Every
19:02
Speaker 1: time you go to the gym, you embody the identity
19:04
Speaker 1: of someone who's fit. Every time you sit down to
19:06
Speaker 1: write a sentence or a page, you embody the identity
19:10
Speaker 1: of someone who's a writer. And so in that sense,
19:12
Speaker 1: habits are like every action you take is kind of
19:15
Speaker 1: like a vote for the type of person that you
19:17
Speaker 1: believe that you are. And as you take these actions,
19:20
Speaker 1: you build up evidence of a particular identity, and pretty
19:23
Speaker 1: soon your beliefs have something to like root themselves in.
19:26
Speaker 1: It's like, man, you know, I've showed up at the
19:27
Speaker 1: gym for four days a week for the last three months.
19:30
Speaker 1: I guess like I'm the type of person who doesn't
19:32
Speaker 1: miss workouts, and that I think is the true reason
19:36
Speaker 1: why habits are so important. Once I realized how beliefs
19:40
Speaker 1: and behaviors are connected, that it's like this two way street,
19:45
Speaker 1: then I've started to think, all right, maybe this is
19:47
Speaker 1: really something. Not only does it deliver those external results
19:50
Speaker 1: the clean room or the you know, bigger bank account,
19:52
Speaker 1: but also the internal results of shaping your sense of
19:56
Speaker 1: self image and what you believe.
19:58
Speaker 2: Right, So let's drill into these four laws you've got.
20:04
Speaker 1: We'll just break them down. Okay, so I've hinted at
20:08
Speaker 1: this process so far, but the four stages that any
20:12
Speaker 1: habit goes through Q craving response reward. So there's some
20:16
Speaker 1: type of Q or raw data that gets your attention.
20:19
Speaker 1: Then you predict or interpret that data in some way
20:23
Speaker 1: which motivates you to act take a response, and then
20:26
Speaker 1: somehow that behavior either benefits you or does not benefit you,
20:30
Speaker 1: and that's what gets you to close the feedback loop
20:32
Speaker 1: and update your prediction for the next time and decide
20:34
Speaker 1: if you want to continue that.
20:36
Speaker 2: Although a caveat to that I would imagine is that
20:40
Speaker 2: there is a real you're saying it either benefits you
20:42
Speaker 2: or it doesn't.
20:43
Speaker 1: But isn't there an argument.
20:44
Speaker 2: That it's benefiting you somehow? Maybe not in a good way,
20:50
Speaker 2: but you're getting something.
20:51
Speaker 1: Out of that.
20:51
Speaker 2: Like if you have a habit that's unhealthy, some bad
20:55
Speaker 2: behavior and everybody tells you got to stop doing that,
20:59
Speaker 2: you're getting some positive result from that, even if it's twisted,
21:04
Speaker 2: you know, or unhealthy. There's something inside of you that
21:08
Speaker 2: compels you to act that way because because you're getting
21:11
Speaker 2: something out.
21:12
Speaker 1: Of it, right, So that's an actial point.
21:14
Speaker 2: Yeah, Like whether it's masking some pain or whatever it is,
21:18
Speaker 2: there is a reason behind that.
21:20
Speaker 1: All behaviors, those that are repeated service in some way.
21:25
Speaker 1: I guess we'd say all habits serve you in some way.
21:27
Speaker 1: And one way to think about this is that every
21:29
Speaker 1: behavior produces multiple outcomes across time. So if you take
21:34
Speaker 1: a bad habit or an unhealthy habit, like eating a
21:37
Speaker 1: doughnut or something, the immediate outcome is favorable. It's sugary,
21:41
Speaker 1: it's tasty, it's enjoyable in the moment. That's how it
21:43
Speaker 1: serves you. That's the reason why you repeat it. The
21:46
Speaker 1: ultimate outcome if you repeat that every day for the
21:48
Speaker 1: next three months or a year or whatever, is you
21:50
Speaker 1: end up gaining weight or you're less healthier.
21:52
Speaker 2: So on.
21:53
Speaker 1: For good habits, it's off on the reverse, right, Like
21:55
Speaker 1: sometimes you know, the benefit of going to the gym
21:58
Speaker 1: in many people's eyes is the immediate outcomes unfavorable sweat,
22:02
Speaker 1: I have to work, it's effortful, it's hard, and sacrifice.
22:05
Speaker 1: I don't get to watch TV. I gotta go there instead,
22:08
Speaker 1: So the immedia outcome is unfavorable. The ultimate outcome, if
22:11
Speaker 1: you repeat that habit for two months or a year
22:13
Speaker 1: or whatever, is you're fit and healthy. And this is
22:16
Speaker 1: one of the key challenges of building good habits and
22:19
Speaker 1: breaking bad ones is figuring out ways to take the
22:23
Speaker 1: long term consequences of your good habits or of your
22:26
Speaker 1: bad habits and pull them into the present moment so
22:28
Speaker 1: you feel a little bit of the pain right now,
22:30
Speaker 1: so it serves you less. And to take the long
22:32
Speaker 1: term rewards of your good habits and pull those into
22:35
Speaker 1: the present moment so it feels good. This is one
22:38
Speaker 1: reason why you know it's great to choose, like, what's
22:40
Speaker 1: the best form of exercise, Well, maybe it's about the
22:42
Speaker 1: one that you enjoy because of it feels good in
22:45
Speaker 1: the moment now, it serves you to have a reason
22:47
Speaker 1: to repeat it.
22:47
Speaker 2: Yeah, humans are not wired to prioritize long term rewards
22:52
Speaker 2: over immediate gratification, right, And that's why, you know, habit
22:57
Speaker 2: change in the interest of setting you on a long
23:00
Speaker 2: term positive trajectory is much more difficult than defaulting to
23:04
Speaker 2: the immediate gratification that's leading you astray. And intellectualization of
23:09
Speaker 2: it doesn't really help. It's not like everybody you's smoking
23:13
Speaker 2: knows it's bad for them. Yes, you know, but they can't.
23:16
Speaker 2: You know, they can't stop even though the long term
23:18
Speaker 2: benefits of stopping are evident and indisputable. For some reason,
23:24
Speaker 2: we lack the ability to harness that motivation to implement
23:30
Speaker 2: that behavior change.
23:32
Speaker 1: So I think that's a good way to define what
23:34
Speaker 1: a good habit is and what a bad habit is
23:36
Speaker 1: is that bad habits think about it in the long term.
23:39
Speaker 1: Good habits serve you in the long run. Bad habits
23:41
Speaker 1: do not, even if they serve you in the moment.
23:44
Speaker 2: And so is there sorry to interrupt you, but is
23:49
Speaker 2: there an argument to be had that that we would
23:54
Speaker 2: be benefited from removing judgment on habits altogether and kind
24:01
Speaker 2: of avoid classifying them as good or bad into saying
24:05
Speaker 2: these are behaviors they're serving you in a certain way, like,
24:07
Speaker 2: let's take all the passion and emotion out of this
24:11
Speaker 2: all together and look at it from just a forensic
24:14
Speaker 2: point of view. Would that be a good way of
24:19
Speaker 2: helping people, I don't know, make the transition from one
24:23
Speaker 2: to the other. Have you looked at that?
24:25
Speaker 1: I think so. And part of the reason is that
24:27
Speaker 1: in order to change behavior, design it in any meaningful way,
24:30
Speaker 1: you need to be aware of it first. But usually
24:33
Speaker 1: when people become aware of their habits or think about them,
24:35
Speaker 1: you know, like you might smoke or bite your nails
24:38
Speaker 1: or something on autopilot. But then if you start to
24:40
Speaker 1: think about it, well, you feel guilty about it. You know,
24:42
Speaker 1: you start to judge yourself. As soon as you start
24:44
Speaker 1: to judge yourself, then you're not in a great position
24:46
Speaker 1: to change because you what ends up happening a lot
24:49
Speaker 1: of the time. This has happened actually with a couple
24:50
Speaker 1: of campaigns that have tried to scare smokers into not
24:54
Speaker 1: smoking by showing them pictures of black and lungs, or
24:57
Speaker 1: scare obese people into not eating as much by talking
25:00
Speaker 1: about the detriments of being overweight. What happens is people
25:04
Speaker 1: get really anxious and stress. They feel guilty and worried,
25:07
Speaker 1: and then they resort amplify, they resort to their preferred
25:10
Speaker 1: habit for dealing with that, which means they end up
25:12
Speaker 1: smoking more, eating more, or whatever. So yes, I think
25:16
Speaker 1: there is a benefit to looking at it in an unemotional,
25:18
Speaker 1: forensic way, and one way to do that is to
25:22
Speaker 1: say there are no good or bad habits. There are
25:25
Speaker 1: just behaviors that serve you in a particular way, and
25:27
Speaker 1: the goal is to try to find a behavior that
25:31
Speaker 1: serves you in a better way. And I still use
25:37
Speaker 1: the term good and bad because I think implicitly most
25:39
Speaker 1: people know what we're talking about when we say that,
25:42
Speaker 1: like and we use it in everyday conversation. But from
25:45
Speaker 1: a practical standpoint, it's just the effort and energy use
25:50
Speaker 1: judging yourself and feeling guilty about things is not well
25:53
Speaker 1: spent or productive, and so if that is a way
25:57
Speaker 1: that helps people get over that, then I think that's useful.
26:00
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's also certainly a hierarchy of habits too. What
26:06
Speaker 2: I see a lot of, and I'm interested in your
26:10
Speaker 2: experience working with so many people on this is people
26:14
Speaker 2: honing in, zeroing in on a behavior, a habit that
26:18
Speaker 2: they want to change, but they're kind of identifying the
26:21
Speaker 2: wrong one. Like if your goal is to lose ten pounds,
26:25
Speaker 2: or the behavior that you want to change, the habit
26:27
Speaker 2: that you want to change is going from sedentary to
26:30
Speaker 2: being a runner. For example, you're going to run your
26:32
Speaker 2: first five k, so this goal, but you have a
26:35
Speaker 2: victim mentality and you think the world is against you
26:38
Speaker 2: and everything bad in your life is somebody else's fault,
26:41
Speaker 2: and you're not addressing and redressing the habits that are
26:46
Speaker 2: fueling that identity. You can run as many five k's
26:50
Speaker 2: or marathons as you want, but ultimately you're channeling your
26:54
Speaker 2: energy in the wrong direction.
26:55
Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, the energy is focused on like this, the
27:01
Speaker 1: thing that makes the last like two percent of difference,
27:03
Speaker 1: and not the thing that makes ninety five percent of difference. Right.
27:05
Speaker 1: You see this in all kinds of places. I mean
27:07
Speaker 1: the example you just gave is good, but just take
27:09
Speaker 1: someone who's trying to get in shape. I mean, people
27:11
Speaker 1: will what kind of protein powder should I get? What
27:14
Speaker 1: knees leaves do I need? What are the best weightlifting shoes?
27:17
Speaker 1: And all that stuff is like the last two percent
27:19
Speaker 1: of difference that it's mostly like don't miss workouts and
27:22
Speaker 1: get your reps in.
27:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, but ultimately I think that those people aren't even
27:26
Speaker 2: really interested in the answer. They're just stuck in analysis paralysis.
27:31
Speaker 2: Like they sort of want to change their behavior, but
27:34
Speaker 2: they want to have all these questions answered and they
27:36
Speaker 2: want to know exactly what they're doing before they'll even
27:39
Speaker 2: go take a walk, right, So how much do they
27:42
Speaker 2: really want to change that behavior? They're flirting with the
27:44
Speaker 2: idea of behavior change, but they're ultimately not at the
27:46
Speaker 2: place where they're ready to commit to anything, and so
27:49
Speaker 2: that makes them feel like they're doing something when they're
27:53
Speaker 2: actually just reinforcing that paralysis.
27:56
Speaker 1: This is what in the book I call the difference
27:58
Speaker 1: between motion and action. Action can actually deliver a result,
28:02
Speaker 1: but motion is related to that, but never will you know,
28:07
Speaker 1: Like going to the gym and talking to a personal
28:10
Speaker 1: trainer about signing up, that's fine, that's related to getting
28:14
Speaker 1: in shape, but it doesn't matter how many times you
28:16
Speaker 1: talk to a personal trainer, You're never going to get
28:18
Speaker 1: in shape. Whereas like doing ten squats that actually can
28:21
Speaker 1: do something. It's like talking to the trainer's motion doing
28:24
Speaker 1: squats's action. Yeah, and yeah, I think a lot of
28:27
Speaker 1: times people get trapped in motion, They get trapped in
28:30
Speaker 1: analysis paralysis, because it is a way to feel like
28:34
Speaker 1: you're making progress without running the risk of failure.
28:37
Speaker 2: Right, And it's more complicated and nuanced than that, because
28:41
Speaker 2: going and talking to the trainer is an important step.
28:44
Speaker 2: If you've never done anything like that before.
28:46
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's the hard thing is. It's not like you
28:49
Speaker 1: shouldn't do it. It's just that it's not the only
28:51
Speaker 1: thing you us. Right.
28:52
Speaker 2: If that's the thing, If that doesn't create the momentum
28:55
Speaker 2: to take the additional step and set in motion a
29:00
Speaker 2: consistent flow of repeatable actions over time, then.
29:06
Speaker 1: This is why I think identity is such a crucial
29:08
Speaker 1: issue with habits, is that true behavior change is really
29:12
Speaker 1: identity change, because you're not really looking to go from
29:17
Speaker 1: the type of person who doesn't run to the type
29:19
Speaker 1: of person who can run a five K. That's fine,
29:21
Speaker 1: that's good, it's the outcome. But the goal is not
29:23
Speaker 1: to run a marathon. The goal is to become a runner.
29:26
Speaker 1: The goal is not to write a book. The goal
29:28
Speaker 1: is to become a writer. And once you identify as
29:30
Speaker 1: that type of person, in a sense, you're not even
29:33
Speaker 1: really pursuing behavior change anymore. You're just acting in alignment
29:37
Speaker 1: with the type of person that you already believe that
29:38
Speaker 1: you are. It's like one thing to say I want this,
29:41
Speaker 1: it's something different to say I am this.
29:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, you write a lot about this, and we can
29:47
Speaker 2: drill down on goals and the importance or lack thereof
29:51
Speaker 2: of goal setting, but ultimately, what really moves the needle
29:57
Speaker 2: is making a decision about the person that you want
29:59
Speaker 2: to be and starting to construct your life in a
30:03
Speaker 2: way that reinforces that identity that you idealize in yourself.
30:08
Speaker 2: So it's less about a finish line and it becomes
30:12
Speaker 2: all about process and the journey.
30:15
Speaker 1: I think that's right, you know, like you're what I
30:17
Speaker 1: said earlier about how habits are a method to embody
30:20
Speaker 1: a particular identity. That's really what we're looking to do
30:23
Speaker 1: here is how do I become the type of person
30:25
Speaker 1: that embodies this each day? How do I become the
30:28
Speaker 1: type of person who doesn't miss workouts? And that's another
30:32
Speaker 1: reason I like small habits, because if you have a
30:34
Speaker 1: really busy day and things are crazy and all you
30:37
Speaker 1: can do is five push ups, if you're oriented around
30:40
Speaker 1: the result, around the outcome, it's easy to dismiss that.
30:43
Speaker 1: It's like, well, why would I even bother doing five
30:45
Speaker 1: push ups? It's not going to get me in shape.
30:47
Speaker 1: But some days it's not about the result of the training.
30:50
Speaker 1: Some days it's about reinforcing being that type of person.
30:53
Speaker 1: You know, like, yes, life was crazy and things are
30:56
Speaker 1: really busy today and the best I could do was
30:57
Speaker 1: getting five push ups in. But I'm still the type
30:59
Speaker 1: of person new doesn't misworkouts even when it's not ideal, right,
31:03
Speaker 1: And in the long run that can count for a lot.
31:05
Speaker 1: Which is the kind of twisted thing about small habits,
31:07
Speaker 1: which is that even though they're small, they can still
31:09
Speaker 1: be meaningful, and if they're meaningful, they actually are big.
31:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, And that really gets at the foundation of this
31:16
Speaker 2: whole thing, which is that every great achievement is about
31:21
Speaker 2: small habits ultimately, and you know, as are in this
31:26
Speaker 2: culture in which we live, it's all about, you know,
31:29
Speaker 2: shoot for the moon and like, set these huge goals
31:31
Speaker 2: and be audacious and find the shortcut and all of that.
31:35
Speaker 2: But every successful person will tell you it's about the tiny, little, imperceptible,
31:42
Speaker 2: non sexy things that they do every single day and
31:45
Speaker 2: have been doing for the last ten or twenty years
31:48
Speaker 2: that got them from wherever they came from to the
31:51
Speaker 2: place that everyone aspires to be.
31:53
Speaker 1: The crazy thing is, habits are Habits are like the
31:57
Speaker 1: foundation for mastery in any area, and it's often the
32:00
Speaker 1: people who are at the peak of a particular area
32:03
Speaker 1: that have the best habits that have like the most
32:05
Speaker 1: things automated and dialed in. You know, imagine. I always
32:08
Speaker 1: think of the story of Josh Waiteskin, who wrote the
32:10
Speaker 1: Art of Learning, and he gave an example of he's doing,
32:13
Speaker 1: you know, ty push hands, this martial art, and when
32:17
Speaker 1: I think about doing something like that, I'm like, all right,
32:19
Speaker 1: I'm going to be grappling with this person, like you know,
32:21
Speaker 1: I'm fully engaged on the wrestling component. But he had
32:25
Speaker 1: practiced it so many times and knew all the moves
32:27
Speaker 1: so well that he was able to more or less
32:30
Speaker 1: put that part of it on autopilot, and he would
32:33
Speaker 1: just focus on his opponent's eyes and when they were
32:35
Speaker 1: getting ready to blink, then he would make his throw.
32:38
Speaker 1: And that was like how he found his advantage. That
32:41
Speaker 1: to someone like me who hasn't done that, that sounds
32:43
Speaker 1: insane that you could even like get to that level.
32:46
Speaker 1: But the point is in order to master any area,
32:48
Speaker 1: he has already habitualized everything else. He knows how to
32:51
Speaker 1: do the throws on autopilot, he knows where his feet
32:53
Speaker 1: should be on autopilot, he knows where his weight should
32:55
Speaker 1: be shifted. And because all of that is habitualized, he
32:58
Speaker 1: actually has the mental capacity available to focus on the
33:02
Speaker 1: thing that makes the last tiniest bit of difference at
33:04
Speaker 1: the highest level. Yeah, and I think that's true for anybody. No,
33:07
Speaker 1: I mean, think about everything Lebron can do on autopilot.
33:10
Speaker 1: I mean, he doesn't have to think about shooting, dribbling,
33:13
Speaker 1: where he's at on the court, like, all of that
33:15
Speaker 1: is just internalized at this point, and he can think
33:17
Speaker 1: about the offensive set or the thing that happened three
33:19
Speaker 1: possessions ago that he did to set them up for
33:21
Speaker 1: what he's going to do now. But most basketball players
33:24
Speaker 1: aren't even at that level because they haven't habitualized. Yeah.
33:27
Speaker 2: Have you seen the documentary Free Solo? Yeah that you
33:31
Speaker 2: saw it?
33:32
Speaker 1: Yeah?
33:32
Speaker 2: All right, good, So for people that are that are
33:35
Speaker 2: listening and haven't seen it, you should go out and
33:37
Speaker 2: see it immediately. Alex Hanold, It's Alex Hanald Free soloing
33:41
Speaker 2: l CAP and even if you think you know the story,
33:45
Speaker 2: I assure you that this movie will leave you with
33:49
Speaker 2: sweaty palms and your mind blown.
33:51
Speaker 1: Dude, those rock climbing documentaries are crazy, but this.
33:54
Speaker 2: One is next level and it speaks. The reason I
33:57
Speaker 2: bring it up is it speaks directly to what you're
33:59
Speaker 2: talking about, which is a level of process and mastery
34:02
Speaker 2: that is rare, even at the highest levels. And you
34:05
Speaker 2: think of Alex as a master but when you really
34:09
Speaker 2: get to understand the level of focus and intentionality and
34:14
Speaker 2: the amount of years that went into that accomplishment, you
34:19
Speaker 2: understand it on a whole different level. And you talk
34:21
Speaker 2: about automation. I mean, you see, when he's climbing that wall,
34:24
Speaker 2: he knows every every hold, every every maneuver, every footstep,
34:28
Speaker 2: and there's actually only maybe three or four problem areas
34:32
Speaker 2: up the whole wall that he really had to double
34:35
Speaker 2: down on to make it work, and all the rest
34:38
Speaker 2: of it was so rote for him. And if you
34:41
Speaker 2: were to ask him, you know, he's he doesn't have
34:44
Speaker 2: to He's not he's not intellectualizing this, you know, it's
34:47
Speaker 2: it's so built into who he is that that the
34:53
Speaker 2: execution of climbing that wall is just a reflection of
34:57
Speaker 2: a lifetime of preparation and focus that's followed in the
35:01
Speaker 2: wake of that success, with him going back to his
35:04
Speaker 2: van and doing pull up, you know, because he is somebody.
35:07
Speaker 2: That's who he is, its identity. It wasn't about yes,
35:11
Speaker 2: he had that goal and the goal was audacious, and
35:13
Speaker 2: he was successful in that goal. But he was successful
35:18
Speaker 2: in that pursuit because this is who he is fundamentally
35:21
Speaker 2: at his core.
35:22
Speaker 1: I remember hearing a story about Brett Farv late in
35:26
Speaker 1: his career, and there was a particular crossing pattern. This
35:29
Speaker 1: guy's running across the field, and the linebacker was interviewed
35:32
Speaker 1: after the game who was defending against the pass, and
35:34
Speaker 1: he was like, nine and ninety nine times out of
35:37
Speaker 1: one thousand, every time this play is run, based on
35:40
Speaker 1: my positioning, the pass is going to be going in
35:42
Speaker 1: front of the linebacker. And so he saw the play
35:45
Speaker 1: and read it and jumped up to intercept the pass,
35:48
Speaker 1: and Farv somehow implicitly noticed all of this and threw
35:52
Speaker 1: it behind him and hit the receiver and stride and
35:54
Speaker 1: the end up getting the first down in this big play.
35:56
Speaker 2: Right, and all happening in a micro second.
35:58
Speaker 1: Yes, all of this is, you know, the average person,
36:00
Speaker 1: you'd stand out there in the middle of the play
36:02
Speaker 1: and it just would look like chaos. Everybody's moving around
36:04
Speaker 1: so fast. And the stories like that and like Alex
36:08
Speaker 1: and these other ones that were telling the only way
36:11
Speaker 1: that you can get to that level of the only
36:12
Speaker 1: way he could even notice that is because every other
36:15
Speaker 1: thing about that play was already on autoput. He had
36:17
Speaker 1: run it so many times that he could see the
36:19
Speaker 1: one thing that was different and make the adjustment on
36:21
Speaker 1: the fly. And those stories, of course are incredible and inspiring,
36:27
Speaker 1: but they also make me realize that I don't know
36:29
Speaker 1: many people fully understand what it takes to be at
36:32
Speaker 1: the top of a field like that. You have to
36:35
Speaker 1: literally live it so that you can internalize all that stuff.
36:39
Speaker 1: I mean, the higher that you get on the curve,
36:41
Speaker 1: it's like the less margin for air that there is,
36:44
Speaker 1: and you need to work. I mean, Olympians will work
36:47
Speaker 1: for four years to shave off two hundreds of a second,
36:50
Speaker 1: and that you have to have that level of commitment
36:53
Speaker 1: because when you're going against the world's best, the margin
36:56
Speaker 1: is so small. And Yeah, anyway, I think habits central
37:00
Speaker 1: role in that I think that they are crucial because
37:02
Speaker 1: the more that you can habitualize, the more you free
37:05
Speaker 1: up your mind to focus on the things that could
37:07
Speaker 1: make that last bit of difference.
37:08
Speaker 2: So let's talk about habit change. We were attempting to
37:12
Speaker 2: launch into these four laws and we haven't even gotten there.
37:15
Speaker 2: Let's go break these down.
37:17
Speaker 1: Okay, So there are four laws of behavior change. Make
37:20
Speaker 1: it obvious, so that's about the queue. Make it attractive,
37:23
Speaker 1: that's about the craving. Make it easy, this is the response.
37:27
Speaker 1: And then make it satisfying, which is the reward.
37:29
Speaker 2: And this is all about adopting a quote unquote good
37:32
Speaker 2: happening correct.
37:33
Speaker 1: And then you can invert each of those four for
37:36
Speaker 1: breaking a bad habit. So for bad habits, you want
37:38
Speaker 1: to make it invisible. I want to make the Q
37:40
Speaker 1: invisible and make it unattractive, make it difficult, and make
37:43
Speaker 1: it unsatisfying. And again, these are like a toolbox for
37:48
Speaker 1: thinking about what can we practically do on a daily
37:50
Speaker 1: basis for building good habits and breaking bad ones.
37:53
Speaker 2: So obvious.
37:55
Speaker 1: So one way to think about this is with a
37:57
Speaker 1: strategy that I call environment design. And the idea is
38:01
Speaker 1: just to restructure your physical environment to make the cues
38:04
Speaker 1: of your good to habits obvious and the cues of
38:07
Speaker 1: your bad habits invisible. So let me give you an example.
38:10
Speaker 1: Both these are two personal examples. So I first, I
38:15
Speaker 1: realized that for most of my life I brushed my
38:18
Speaker 1: brushed my teeth twice a day, but I wouldn't floss consistently.
38:21
Speaker 1: And when I looked at the habit, there were two issues.
38:23
Speaker 1: And one of the problems was the floss was just
38:25
Speaker 1: tucked away in the drawer in the bathroom. I wouldn't
38:27
Speaker 1: see it, and so because it wasn't obvious, sometimes I
38:30
Speaker 1: just would forget. The second thing sounds kind of silly,
38:33
Speaker 1: but I didn't like the feeling of wrapping floss around
38:35
Speaker 1: my fingers. It was just like uncomfortable. And so anyway,
38:39
Speaker 1: I took the floss out of the drawer, bought a
38:41
Speaker 1: little bowl and got some of those pre made flosters
38:43
Speaker 1: and put them in the bowl and set it right
38:44
Speaker 1: next to my toothbrush. And now I brush my teeth,
38:47
Speaker 1: put the toothbrush down, pick a floss up, do it
38:49
Speaker 1: right away. It's obvious. And that's pretty much all I
38:52
Speaker 1: needed to do to build that habit. Now I've been
38:54
Speaker 1: doing it for I don't know five years and I
38:56
Speaker 1: haven't really had to think about it.
38:57
Speaker 2: This is the most important thing.
38:59
Speaker 1: I think.
39:00
Speaker 2: There's a lot of people, my friend Dan Butner included,
39:03
Speaker 2: who don't hold a lot of confidence and belief in
39:07
Speaker 2: a single human being's ability to to implement positive behavior
39:15
Speaker 2: changes with sustainable, these long term results. It's just that's
39:22
Speaker 2: why there's so many self help books. People struggle with
39:24
Speaker 2: weight and fitness and you know, you name it profession
39:27
Speaker 2: like all of these things. It's so hard. But the
39:30
Speaker 2: best way to uh fundamentally address these things is to
39:36
Speaker 2: change your environment so that it's conducive to the healthy choice.
39:39
Speaker 2: So whether it's flossing your teeth or reimagining what an
39:46
Speaker 2: urban landscape is so that it's incentivizing people to ride
39:49
Speaker 2: their bikes and not drive cars, and not drink SODA's
39:53
Speaker 2: but drink water, like structural systemic changes in our environment
39:59
Speaker 2: that make the healthy choice the productive choice, not only
40:05
Speaker 2: the obvious choice, but in some cases, the only choice
40:09
Speaker 2: or the choice that is at arm's length at all times.
40:12
Speaker 2: And that goes with eradicate, eradicating the unhealthy choices, removing
40:16
Speaker 2: those from arm's reach so that they become more difficult
40:19
Speaker 2: to access.
40:20
Speaker 1: Yes, it's huge. I mean, imagine the impact of living
40:25
Speaker 1: in an environment where or working in an environment where
40:28
Speaker 1: there are a hundred little things like that that are
40:29
Speaker 1: all kind of nudging you in the right direction or
40:31
Speaker 1: nudging you away from the wrong direction. Here's another example
40:35
Speaker 1: for breaking a bad habit. So again, here you just
40:37
Speaker 1: invert it. Rather than make it obvious, make it invisible.
40:40
Speaker 1: I've noticed that if I buy a six pack of
40:41
Speaker 1: beer and I put it in the front of the fridge,
40:43
Speaker 1: like either in the door or like right in the
40:45
Speaker 1: front of the shelf, I'll open it up and I'll
40:47
Speaker 1: have one each night just because it's there. But if
40:50
Speaker 1: I take it and I put it in the back
40:51
Speaker 1: of the fridge, like lowest shelf, all the way in
40:54
Speaker 1: the back, where I can't really see it when I
40:55
Speaker 1: open the door, sometimes it'll sit there for like a month.
40:58
Speaker 1: And so it's interesting, you know, I'm like, well, I
41:01
Speaker 1: do I want to beer or not, because in a
41:03
Speaker 1: way I do, but only if it's really presented to me. Right,
41:06
Speaker 1: you moved it like five inches? Yes, really, seriously, it
41:09
Speaker 1: was probably like, yeah, it's probably twelve inches back.
41:11
Speaker 2: Well, I could tell you as a recovering alcoholic in
41:15
Speaker 2: my drinking days, that would not have been a barrier
41:17
Speaker 2: for me. I would have had to take more extreme measures.
41:20
Speaker 1: So that actually raises a good point, which is that
41:24
Speaker 1: many of these strategies that talk about in the book
41:26
Speaker 1: are very effective for good habits and bad habits, even
41:29
Speaker 1: though we just agreed not to use that term, but
41:32
Speaker 1: not necessarily for true addictions.
41:34
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is something I wanted to really get
41:35
Speaker 2: into with you, which is the difference, the qualitative difference
41:40
Speaker 2: between a quote unquote bad habit and something that would
41:44
Speaker 2: qualify as an addiction. I think that line gets blurred,
41:49
Speaker 2: and certainly it's a spectrum, but I think there's a
41:52
Speaker 2: very different approach that you need to take when somebody
41:55
Speaker 2: is truly, you know, falling prey to addictive behavior patterns
42:00
Speaker 2: versus something that's just habituated.
42:03
Speaker 1: Yeah. So we'll get back to the four laws of
42:05
Speaker 1: behavior Changeah.
42:06
Speaker 2: We're gonna by the end of this we will go
42:09
Speaker 2: through them.
42:10
Speaker 1: So the technical definition for an addiction, and by the way,
42:15
Speaker 1: I don't consider myself an expert on addiction is a
42:18
Speaker 1: behavior that you continue to repeat despite negative consequences. So
42:22
Speaker 1: you know that it's bad for you, You know it's
42:24
Speaker 1: not serving you, but you still can't stop yourself from
42:26
Speaker 1: doing it. And those I do agree. It's probably on
42:30
Speaker 1: a spectrum. So you know, on one side of the spectrum,
42:33
Speaker 1: you have a behavior that you do just one time,
42:35
Speaker 1: and then the more that you repeat it, you carind
42:37
Speaker 1: of shift down. Then at some point maybe you cross
42:39
Speaker 1: over this threshold and you get to a habit. And
42:41
Speaker 1: then if you go even further, you've got behaviors that
42:43
Speaker 1: you keep doing again and again, but you don't learn
42:46
Speaker 1: from them, and what we'll call that an addiction. And
42:49
Speaker 1: so it's kind of like the feedback loop is broken.
42:52
Speaker 1: You go through the queue, you have the craving, you
42:55
Speaker 1: take the response, but then instead of there being a reward,
42:57
Speaker 1: instead of it's serving you in some way, all it
43:00
Speaker 1: does is just satisfy the craving and it's but it's
43:03
Speaker 1: not good for the rest of your life.
43:05
Speaker 2: The feedback loop isn't necessarily broken, it's just that it
43:08
Speaker 2: doesn't matter, you know.
43:10
Speaker 1: The craving. A person who's addicted is typically.
43:14
Speaker 2: I mean, there's you know, again denial as the spectrum
43:17
Speaker 2: as well, but on some level, whether conscious or unconscious,
43:20
Speaker 2: they're aware that they're destroying their lives. But it simply
43:24
Speaker 2: doesn't matter. They're still going to pursue this path of
43:27
Speaker 2: destruction no matter where it takes them. And I can
43:30
Speaker 2: just tell you from my own personal experience as somebody
43:34
Speaker 2: who who has always prided themselves on having a large
43:39
Speaker 2: capacity to endure work, somebody who has you know, a
43:45
Speaker 2: reservoir of self will, who had been successful in many
43:49
Speaker 2: ways by virtue of a strong work ethic. I was
43:54
Speaker 2: confounded and brought to my knees time and time again
43:58
Speaker 2: by my inability.
43:59
Speaker 1: To leverage these skills.
44:02
Speaker 2: That I thought were my secret weapons to this problem.
44:07
Speaker 2: And the more that I applied self will, determination, decision
44:11
Speaker 2: making power, my ability to dedicate myself to a goal,
44:15
Speaker 2: the deeper that whole got, Like I had to completely
44:19
Speaker 2: upend how I saw the world and come to this
44:22
Speaker 2: place of not just acceptance and breaking that veil of denial,
44:26
Speaker 2: but also surrender, Like understanding that I was powerless over
44:31
Speaker 2: this thing was really the first base of trying to
44:34
Speaker 2: figure out a new trajectory forward. And it's very counterintuitive
44:38
Speaker 2: and weird, and it doesn't make sense to most people
44:42
Speaker 2: unless you've gone through this process. It's like a letting
44:45
Speaker 2: go as opposed to like like some sort of driven
44:51
Speaker 2: willingness to like fight it.
44:53
Speaker 1: So it was like you could apply determination and grit
44:55
Speaker 1: to any other any other area of my life.
44:58
Speaker 2: I've had success using those skills, but for some reason
45:01
Speaker 2: and with this, yeah, it just it made it worse
45:03
Speaker 2: and worse and worse and worse. And it's further and
45:06
Speaker 2: further isolated me from everybody else because I thought I
45:09
Speaker 2: can solve this. I don't need help. I'm going to
45:11
Speaker 2: do this on you know. I All these other areas
45:13
Speaker 2: of my life have worked out when I use this strategy.
45:17
Speaker 2: There's no reason why this strategy won't work here. And
45:20
Speaker 2: it just destroyed me.
45:23
Speaker 1: So, I mean, obviously addiction is very complicated and I
45:26
Speaker 1: don't know that. So I just made the distinction of
45:29
Speaker 1: the strategies in the book I think are really good
45:30
Speaker 1: for bad habits, not necessarily for addictions. Although I don't
45:33
Speaker 1: think that it would hurt for to use those strategies
45:35
Speaker 1: for addiction. But I don't know that it's going to
45:37
Speaker 1: be like a little magic with solved the problem.
45:39
Speaker 2: Well, it may help with the denial part at a
45:41
Speaker 2: very minimum.
45:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, So there's a secret chapter to the book that's
45:48
Speaker 1: not included in the final manuscript, but that you can
45:50
Speaker 1: get at Atomic habits dot com and it's called the
45:53
Speaker 1: Biology of Bad Behavior, and it discusses what scientists are
45:58
Speaker 1: doing to kind of rewire the brain of app addicts.
46:01
Speaker 1: So some of them are pills like cocaine. Addicts are
46:04
Speaker 1: using a drug called backleaffin that was originally developed for
46:07
Speaker 1: backspasms that some addicts say when they start to take it,
46:12
Speaker 1: suddenly their cravings and addiction have vanished more or less overnight.
46:16
Speaker 1: I don't know that it works for all of them,
46:18
Speaker 1: and that's kind of the story with a lot of
46:19
Speaker 1: these drugs for addiction right now, is that some people
46:22
Speaker 1: have really amazing results, but not every patient does. Then
46:26
Speaker 1: there's a second strategy. It has been National Geographic covered
46:30
Speaker 1: it last year. It's starting to be used in Italy
46:32
Speaker 1: and I think it's making its way around the world
46:33
Speaker 1: where it's this TMS machine, this magnetic stimulation for the brain.
46:38
Speaker 1: And essentially, as I understand it, the prefrontal cortex of
46:45
Speaker 1: the brain is responsible for a variety of decision making
46:49
Speaker 1: centers and your ability to resist temptation. And in addicts,
46:54
Speaker 1: they find that this particular area is kind of deactivated
46:58
Speaker 1: to a certain degree, and so craving arises, you have
47:01
Speaker 1: trouble resisting, and so you'll go in for this magnetic
47:06
Speaker 1: stimulation and effectively they place the magnet over that portion
47:08
Speaker 1: or that region of the brain, stimulate the neurons there
47:11
Speaker 1: with some electrical impulses, and people walk out and they
47:16
Speaker 1: feel like they don't have cravings anymore.
47:18
Speaker 2: Yeah, which is kind of crazy.
47:19
Speaker 1: So I don't I don't know where this is going
47:21
Speaker 1: to go, and I'm very wary to say that, like, oh,
47:24
Speaker 1: this is a magic trick.
47:24
Speaker 2: And yeah, I mean, I think all of that is
47:26
Speaker 2: interesting and it's going to be really cool to see
47:29
Speaker 2: how this stuff plays out. There's all kinds of amazing
47:31
Speaker 2: studies happening with psychedelics at the moment and treating addicts
47:34
Speaker 2: with that. But I always kind of default to this
47:38
Speaker 2: fundamental perspective that you know, addiction is fueled, as Gabor
47:43
Speaker 2: Mate would say, from some kind of childhood trauma or
47:47
Speaker 2: some psychological framework where a person feels broken in some
47:52
Speaker 2: regard and is compelled to engage in that destructive addictive
47:56
Speaker 2: behavior as a means of state change, right, which is
48:00
Speaker 2: what we were talking about earlier. So you can eliminate
48:03
Speaker 2: the craving and eliminate the behavior or the substance, but
48:07
Speaker 2: that predisposition remains, and it will continue to find another
48:11
Speaker 2: avenue to satisfy itself with some kind of behavior or whatever,
48:16
Speaker 2: to solve whatever that wound is, or that that sense
48:20
Speaker 2: of incompleteness or inadequacy or whatever it is that is
48:24
Speaker 2: that is really the driver behind the addictive behavior, because
48:29
Speaker 2: the substance or the behavior is the solution to the problem,
48:33
Speaker 2: and you can until it becomes the problem itself, and
48:37
Speaker 2: you can remove that, but you're still left with that
48:39
Speaker 2: fundamental disposition that needs to get addressed.
48:42
Speaker 1: Do you feel like running or writing has been or
48:47
Speaker 1: something else has been the thing that's there for you. Yeah.
48:50
Speaker 2: They're helpful and they're curative in some regard, but ultimately
48:54
Speaker 2: they're not the solution for me. I mean, I you know,
48:57
Speaker 2: I've been sober for a long time. Twelve Steps the
49:00
Speaker 2: Secret Society, you know, is That's how I've got sober
49:04
Speaker 2: and have stayed sober. And I'm still, you know, a
49:07
Speaker 2: very very active member of that program, and that to
49:11
Speaker 2: this day is still my number one priority. And the
49:14
Speaker 2: minute I start to lose sight of that or forget
49:16
Speaker 2: that or take it, for granted, is when I start
49:19
Speaker 2: to lapse back into into that realm and there's no
49:24
Speaker 2: stasis either. And you know this is something you write
49:27
Speaker 2: about and understand, well, there's no like, Oh, I conquered that,
49:30
Speaker 2: now I'm moving on to this. With addiction, it's either
49:34
Speaker 2: regressing or progressing whatever you thought you entertain or behavior
49:37
Speaker 2: that you engage in. So you have to be very
49:39
Speaker 2: mindful of it and engaged in the behaviors and the
49:42
Speaker 2: activities that keep it at bay in order to be
49:46
Speaker 2: healthy and functional. So I don't go around thinking about
49:50
Speaker 2: drinking or using drugs very often. It rarely occurs to me,
49:54
Speaker 2: but I have a whole battery of other negative behavior
49:57
Speaker 2: patterns that will manifest all kinds of character effects that
50:01
Speaker 2: I wouldn't qualify as addictions, but our habits that you know,
50:05
Speaker 2: I'm constantly trying to master or change.
50:08
Speaker 1: Yeah. Well, this is kind of an interesting intersection with
50:12
Speaker 1: the second law to bring it back to some of
50:15
Speaker 1: those because so the first law we talked about make
50:19
Speaker 1: it obvious and doing some of these environment design changes.
50:22
Speaker 1: The second law is about making it attractive. And what
50:26
Speaker 1: I mean by that is when you interpret a behavior
50:30
Speaker 1: excuse me, when you interpret a behavior or a queue
50:33
Speaker 1: as being attractive, as being something that you should move toward,
50:38
Speaker 1: then you have a reason to perform the action and
50:40
Speaker 1: you're motivated to do it. So in many cases, the
50:45
Speaker 1: behaviors that are motivating to us, that are attractive to us,
50:48
Speaker 1: are dependent on the people that we are around. So
50:53
Speaker 1: one way to think about this is that we are
50:54
Speaker 1: all members of tribes. Some of the tribes are big,
50:57
Speaker 1: some of them are small, Like big ones might be
50:59
Speaker 1: what it means to be an or what it means
51:00
Speaker 1: to be French or something like that, and small ones
51:03
Speaker 1: could be, you know, what it means to be a
51:04
Speaker 1: neighbor on your street, or a member of your local
51:07
Speaker 1: CrossFit gym, or a volunteer at your local high school
51:10
Speaker 1: or whatever. But all of these tribes, large and small,
51:14
Speaker 1: have a set of shared expectations for what it means
51:17
Speaker 1: to be part of the group, and when you belong
51:20
Speaker 1: to that tribe, when you have friends there, when you
51:23
Speaker 1: feel like you want to fit in with that group,
51:25
Speaker 1: Habits that align with the shared expectations of the tribe
51:28
Speaker 1: are very attractive and you want to do them. And
51:30
Speaker 1: habits that go against the grain of the shared expectations
51:33
Speaker 1: are very unattractive, and so one of the ways to
51:37
Speaker 1: make habits more attractive is to join a group where
51:40
Speaker 1: your desired behavior is the normal behavior to be with
51:44
Speaker 1: a crew, where the habits that you want to build
51:47
Speaker 1: are just normal and every day for them.
51:49
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, that's really an extrapolation of the first law.
51:54
Speaker 2: You're extending your physical you're creating a productive physical environment,
52:00
Speaker 2: and now you're extending that to your interpersonal environment. So
52:03
Speaker 2: you're surrounding yourself with a physical environment that's conducive to
52:06
Speaker 2: the healthy behavior, the healthy habit, and now you're surrounding
52:10
Speaker 2: yourself with the people that reinforce that and make it
52:14
Speaker 2: more difficult for you to behave otherwise.
52:17
Speaker 1: I mean, society leans heavily on all of us, you know,
52:20
Speaker 1: Like I mean, there's a bunch of habits that people
52:22
Speaker 1: do each day you don't even think about. Like you
52:23
Speaker 1: get onto the elevator and you turn around to face
52:26
Speaker 1: the front or you you made that role anyway, Yeah,
52:30
Speaker 1: I know, right, Well, go to a job interview and
52:33
Speaker 1: you wear a suit and a tie or a dress
52:36
Speaker 1: or something nice. There's no reason it has to be
52:39
Speaker 1: like that, right, Like you could face the back of
52:41
Speaker 1: the elevator. You could wear a bathing suit to a
52:43
Speaker 1: job interview, but we don't do that because it violates
52:46
Speaker 1: those shared expectations. It goes against the grain of the group.
52:49
Speaker 1: And so so many of our choices are like that.
52:53
Speaker 1: And in many ways, when we're young, a lot of
52:54
Speaker 1: our habits are not chosen. They're inherited. They're passed down
52:58
Speaker 1: to us by whatever group that we're a part of.
53:00
Speaker 1: And then, you know, part of the process of becoming
53:02
Speaker 1: an adult is you grow up and you get into
53:04
Speaker 1: your twenties and thirties and you decide these groups that
53:08
Speaker 1: I inherited, these behaviors that I in here are these
53:10
Speaker 1: the ones that serve me? Or these are the ones
53:11
Speaker 1: that I want, And then you know, you kind of
53:13
Speaker 1: go through the process of changing that. And in many ways,
53:17
Speaker 1: asking people to change their habits is actually asking them
53:20
Speaker 1: to change their tribe. And that can be hard, especially
53:24
Speaker 1: if you have to do it on your own, you know,
53:26
Speaker 1: I mean, that's one of the it helps to have
53:28
Speaker 1: a new tribe to go to, because if people have
53:30
Speaker 1: to choose between having the habits they want and being alone,
53:34
Speaker 1: or having the habits they don't want and being with people,
53:37
Speaker 1: being having friends belonging. We'd often rather be wrong with
53:41
Speaker 1: the crowd than right by ourselves.
53:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think we're seeing this being played out
53:47
Speaker 2: culturally in this interesting moment that we're having right now.
53:51
Speaker 1: Where.
53:53
Speaker 2: Across all forms of social media, the things that people
53:58
Speaker 2: are saying in the sphere are as much signaling to
54:04
Speaker 2: their own group to reaffirm their position within their tribe
54:09
Speaker 2: as they are an attempt to convert somebody from another tribe,
54:13
Speaker 2: which doesn't work generally. But it's interesting to see that
54:17
Speaker 2: social dynamic writ large because it's a such a heightened
54:23
Speaker 2: state right now, But it's really no different than the
54:27
Speaker 2: guy who you know is hanging out with his gym
54:32
Speaker 2: buddies and wants to be part of that crowd and
54:35
Speaker 2: really wet himself into that subculture and identify with that
54:40
Speaker 2: and be approved of by that group.
54:43
Speaker 1: I wrote an article recently called why facts don't change
54:46
Speaker 1: our minds and humans need a reasonably accurate view of
54:51
Speaker 1: the world of the facts to survive. You know, like
54:53
Speaker 1: if you couldn't accurately see where the car was moving
54:56
Speaker 1: down the road and then you walked out, you get
54:58
Speaker 1: hit by one and woden pastor gene along and so on,
55:02
Speaker 1: and so you need to have some reasonable baseline, but
55:05
Speaker 1: within that there's actually a fair bit of flexibility. And
55:08
Speaker 1: so people don't just hold beliefs because they're true and
55:11
Speaker 1: accurate and factual. They also hold beliefs because they can
55:15
Speaker 1: help them belong, because they signal to their social allies
55:19
Speaker 1: that hey, I belong to this tribe. And in many cases,
55:22
Speaker 1: being abandoned by the tribe is more of a death
55:25
Speaker 1: sentence than having a belief that is slightly inaccurate, that
55:28
Speaker 1: especially one that doesn't impact your personal life right now.
55:32
Speaker 1: And so then we fast forward to modern society and
55:34
Speaker 1: you get this manifesting in all kinds of world ways.
55:36
Speaker 2: Right right, all right, Well, on this idea of making
55:42
Speaker 2: it attractive and surrounding yourself with the people that affirm
55:49
Speaker 2: and approve of and encourage the kind of behavior that
55:53
Speaker 2: you're trying to manifest within yourself, there are two, it
55:59
Speaker 2: seems to me, there are two kind of operating systems here.
56:03
Speaker 2: There is the positive reinforcement that you get the approval mechanism,
56:09
Speaker 2: but there's also the negative accountability, right like, because if
56:12
Speaker 2: you stray, then you're going to be held accountable for that.
56:15
Speaker 2: In the same way you're going to get a pat
56:16
Speaker 2: on the back for towing the line or being part
56:19
Speaker 2: of the group. Is there one that you've seen that
56:22
Speaker 2: is more powerful than the other? Are they both necessary?
56:26
Speaker 2: How does that work?
56:27
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's a tough question. Jonathan hate At, I think
56:31
Speaker 1: he's in NYU. He has some interesting research on this,
56:34
Speaker 1: and I don't know that he's performed it himself, but
56:36
Speaker 1: he was the one that I saw present it about
56:38
Speaker 1: the importance of punishments and consequences in societies in general,
56:42
Speaker 1: and like, we need to know that there is a
56:44
Speaker 1: punishment for breaking the law or something in order for
56:47
Speaker 1: people to stay on course. And so I'm not sure
56:51
Speaker 1: exactly how that applies to habits. My gut reaction is
56:55
Speaker 1: that you probably need both in the long run, but
56:58
Speaker 1: that stream punishments and consequences, those like fear driven consequences
57:06
Speaker 1: rather than rewards, really get people to move in the
57:09
Speaker 1: intermediate in the short term, and the belonging and the
57:12
Speaker 1: positive rewards are more likely to sustain stay a long run.
57:17
Speaker 1: So I would say that's generally how I would bucket them.
57:21
Speaker 2: I think it was Tim Ferriss who came up with
57:23
Speaker 2: that case study experiment of creating a gym where I
57:30
Speaker 2: think I think the idea was you pay all the
57:32
Speaker 2: money up front for the year and they take a
57:34
Speaker 2: picture of you without your shirt on, looking terrible, and.
57:37
Speaker 1: If you don't, if you miss a day or whatever like,
57:40
Speaker 1: then that.
57:40
Speaker 2: Image goes on social media, you know, So it's sort
57:43
Speaker 2: of like the stick, you know, being more powerful than
57:47
Speaker 2: the carrot, at least in the short term.
57:49
Speaker 1: I've heard about ones where they you pay like, you know,
57:53
Speaker 1: I don't know what the exact number would be, maybe
57:55
Speaker 1: it's like one hundred and fifty dollars a month, and
57:57
Speaker 1: then every time you go to the gym you get
57:59
Speaker 1: five bucks. And so if you go every day for
58:01
Speaker 1: thirty days, you pay nothing, and you know, if you
58:03
Speaker 1: go three days a week you get to So that's
58:06
Speaker 1: kind of similar incentive in the book, I think I
58:09
Speaker 1: have an example of this guy, Thomas Frank. He's this
58:11
Speaker 1: entrepreneur in Colorado and he wanted to build the habit
58:14
Speaker 1: of waking up earlier, and so he created a little
58:19
Speaker 1: automated Twitter post that would go out at six am
58:22
Speaker 1: every morning or six oh five. I think he wanted
58:24
Speaker 1: to wake up at six am, and so if he
58:26
Speaker 1: didn't get up at six at six oh five, it
58:29
Speaker 1: would post to Twitter and say I'm not up right
58:31
Speaker 1: now because I'm lazy. The first five people to respond
58:34
Speaker 1: to this, I'll pay how you twenty five dollars And
58:37
Speaker 1: so then every day'd wake up at six and the
58:39
Speaker 1: first thing you'd do is push that back to the
58:40
Speaker 1: next day.
58:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's a genius. I mean, you definitely would wake up,
58:45
Speaker 2: you know, you had some horrible tweet going out that
58:48
Speaker 2: reflected poorly on you.
58:49
Speaker 1: And yeah.
58:50
Speaker 2: The other example that comes to mind is the I
58:52
Speaker 2: think it's Tim Ferriss as well, which was the if
58:55
Speaker 2: you fail, like a certain amount of money goes to
58:58
Speaker 2: an organization that you just bought.
59:00
Speaker 1: Their variety of services that do that now. One's called
59:03
Speaker 1: b minder, another one is called stick. I think it's
59:06
Speaker 1: stic KK. But yeah, you put like, you know, all right,
59:11
Speaker 1: my goals run this half marathon, and if I don't
59:13
Speaker 1: train three days a week, then I'm putting five hundred
59:16
Speaker 1: dollars on the line, and you commit it and you
59:18
Speaker 1: can't get the money back unless your friend releases it
59:21
Speaker 1: to you, right, and if you don't do your training,
59:23
Speaker 1: the money goes to a charity that you hate to whatever.
59:26
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, cool, all right, the next law is easy.
59:31
Speaker 1: Okay, so make it easy. Many of our behaviors are
59:35
Speaker 1: just about convenience, you know. Like I, So I've started
59:39
Speaker 1: doing this thing recently where I'll leave my phone in
59:42
Speaker 1: another room outside of my office for an until lunch
59:46
Speaker 1: each day, so I get a block of three or
59:48
Speaker 1: four hours in the morning where it's not around. Now,
59:51
Speaker 1: these numbers keep going up every year. We just get
59:53
Speaker 1: more and more addicted to our phones. But the average
59:56
Speaker 1: adult checks their phone over one hundred and fifty times
59:58
Speaker 1: a day now. And if the phone is next to
1:00:00
Speaker 1: me on the desk, I'm like everybody else. I'd look
1:00:03
Speaker 1: at it every three minutes or five minutes or whatever.
1:00:06
Speaker 1: But when I keep it outside of my office, I
1:00:08
Speaker 1: have this home office, all I have to do is
1:00:10
Speaker 1: walk up the stairs and go to a different room.
1:00:11
Speaker 1: It's like forty five seconds away, but I never go
1:00:14
Speaker 1: do it, which is fascinating to me because it's like, well,
1:00:16
Speaker 1: I was checking my phone every five minutes if it
1:00:18
Speaker 1: was next to me, so you would think I wanted
1:00:20
Speaker 1: to do it, but I never wanted it bad enough
1:00:24
Speaker 1: to walk forty five seconds upstairs. And modern society has
1:00:28
Speaker 1: done this weird thing where so many of the behaviors
1:00:32
Speaker 1: and technologies are so frictionless. Now, they're so convenient that
1:00:36
Speaker 1: we find ourselves doing them just with an inkling of desire.
1:00:39
Speaker 1: We don't actually really want them, but they're so easy
1:00:42
Speaker 1: that we'll just fill space with them. And so this law,
1:00:47
Speaker 1: the third law, is about trying to get that to
1:00:49
Speaker 1: work for you when it comes to building good habits,
1:00:52
Speaker 1: so reducing the number of steps between you and the
1:00:54
Speaker 1: good habits and increasing the number of steps between you
1:00:57
Speaker 1: and the bad ones. So you want to make it
1:00:58
Speaker 1: difficult for that. And one of the metaphors I like
1:01:01
Speaker 1: to use is a like a garden hose. So imagine
1:01:04
Speaker 1: you have a hose that's like bent in the middle
1:01:06
Speaker 1: and there's a little bit of water trickling out. If
1:01:09
Speaker 1: you want to get more water through the hose, then
1:01:11
Speaker 1: you have two options. The first is you could just
1:01:13
Speaker 1: crank up the valve and force water through, but that
1:01:17
Speaker 1: increases friction and increases tension in the system. The other
1:01:21
Speaker 1: option is just to unfold the bend and let the
1:01:24
Speaker 1: water flow through naturally, and that also gets more water
1:01:27
Speaker 1: to flow through, but it reduces tension, reduces friction, and
1:01:31
Speaker 1: so much of the conversation about building better habits and
1:01:35
Speaker 1: achieving peak performance is all the mental equivalent of cranking
1:01:40
Speaker 1: up the valve. You need to work harder, you need
1:01:42
Speaker 1: to have grit, persevere, hustle, grind, And it's not that
1:01:45
Speaker 1: those qualities are bad, it's just that it increases tension
1:01:49
Speaker 1: in the system. And what you really want is to
1:01:53
Speaker 1: create a setup where it's easy to do the things
1:01:57
Speaker 1: that pay off in the long run, and you have
1:01:59
Speaker 1: them in mentality of I'm the type person who will
1:02:01
Speaker 1: work hard, So you want to reduce the tention where.
1:02:04
Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm more sustainable, gentle solution. Then you know, rise
1:02:09
Speaker 2: and grind versus remove these things that are in your
1:02:13
Speaker 2: way every single day that actually are pretty easy to
1:02:16
Speaker 2: remove or create distance between to make it easier for
1:02:20
Speaker 2: you to do the thing that you're trying to do.
1:02:24
Speaker 1: You're really trying to prime your environment to make the
1:02:26
Speaker 1: default action easier. And sometimes you can do that with
1:02:30
Speaker 1: environment design stuff that we talked about earlier. Other times
1:02:33
Speaker 1: you can do it by taking actions ahead of time
1:02:36
Speaker 1: that pay off in the future. So, like say you're
1:02:39
Speaker 1: trying to build a better sleep habit, there are a
1:02:42
Speaker 1: variety of one time actions you could take today that
1:02:44
Speaker 1: make it easier to get better sleep every night after this.
1:02:47
Speaker 1: You could test different mattresses and see which one leaves
1:02:50
Speaker 1: the best night's sleep and buy that one. You could
1:02:53
Speaker 1: purchase blackout curtains so that your room is dark. You
1:02:56
Speaker 1: could buy ear muffs or earplugs so that you can
1:02:59
Speaker 1: sleep more sound. Get a sleep mask so that you know,
1:03:02
Speaker 1: can sleep on the road or in hotels. There are
1:03:05
Speaker 1: some of those things, like the chili pad or some
1:03:07
Speaker 1: of the other stuff that you know will cool the
1:03:08
Speaker 1: temperature of the bed to a more ideal rate. Or
1:03:11
Speaker 1: you can get a tent and sleep in your backyard
1:03:13
Speaker 1: like I do. There you go, you could sleep outside.
1:03:17
Speaker 1: You could also buy There's this little device called an
1:03:20
Speaker 1: outlet timer, and it costs like ten dollars on Amazon,
1:03:23
Speaker 1: and my friend near Al he bought one and he
1:03:26
Speaker 1: plugged it into his It's like an adapter. You plug
1:03:28
Speaker 1: it into the outlet and then you plug the device
1:03:30
Speaker 1: into the timer. And so he plugged his Internet router
1:03:33
Speaker 1: into it and set the timer for ten pm each night,
1:03:36
Speaker 1: and it would kill the power to the internet router
1:03:38
Speaker 1: at ten So then it's like, well, Netflix doesn't work.
1:03:41
Speaker 1: I can't browse the web. It's time for everybody to
1:03:43
Speaker 1: go to bed. Oh that's interesting, And so imagine if
1:03:46
Speaker 1: you just did I mean I just listed off seven
1:03:48
Speaker 1: or eight things there, but you know, imagine if you
1:03:49
Speaker 1: did five of those. Well, now suddenly you're in an
1:03:51
Speaker 1: environment where getting better sleep as a habit is much easier.
1:03:55
Speaker 1: And those were all just one time choices that paid
1:03:57
Speaker 1: off for you in the future. And there's a bunch
1:03:59
Speaker 1: of stuff like that depending on the habit, you know.
1:04:01
Speaker 1: I mean, finance habits are a good example. Automated savings
1:04:04
Speaker 1: or automatic deposit into your four oh one K or
1:04:06
Speaker 1: stuff like that. I mean, you know, you want to
1:04:08
Speaker 1: make this brainless so that you can as much as possible,
1:04:12
Speaker 1: so that you have the energy leftover to do the
1:04:14
Speaker 1: hard thing when you need to.
1:04:16
Speaker 2: It's weird how we've created this world where now we
1:04:20
Speaker 2: have to spend so much energy trying to create systems
1:04:27
Speaker 2: to the systems and to like override our DNA and
1:04:33
Speaker 2: impulses to engage in these things that we think we've
1:04:36
Speaker 2: created to make our lives better, and yet at the
1:04:39
Speaker 2: same time are creating all these downstream problems. I mean,
1:04:44
Speaker 2: you know, the obvious candidate the cell phone. It's like,
1:04:47
Speaker 2: this thing is so scientifically devised and designed to captivate
1:04:53
Speaker 2: us and trigger all of those you know, impulses that
1:04:57
Speaker 2: we so deeply seek that you can't blame anyone from.
1:05:02
Speaker 2: I mean, it's like you're scrolling and you're like, I
1:05:04
Speaker 2: didn't even know I was scrolling. You know, it becomes
1:05:06
Speaker 2: so bred into us, and now we have to go
1:05:09
Speaker 2: way out of our way and buy all these other
1:05:11
Speaker 2: devices to protect ourselves. I just saw the other day.
1:05:15
Speaker 2: I don't know if you saw this. Somebody came up
1:05:17
Speaker 2: with these special sunglasses that you can put on and
1:05:20
Speaker 2: it makes all screens look blank.
1:05:23
Speaker 1: No really yeah.
1:05:26
Speaker 2: So when you're wearing that, this actually can't on a
1:05:28
Speaker 2: digital screen. Yeah.
1:05:29
Speaker 1: I think it just makes everything look white. Oh man.
1:05:32
Speaker 2: I'm like, that's really cool, and it's also insane that.
1:05:35
Speaker 1: We had had to do about that that, you know
1:05:37
Speaker 1: what I mean. Some poor person has spent a thousand
1:05:39
Speaker 1: hours building this company Keen.
1:05:40
Speaker 2: Twenty, Like this is not what they're worried about, you
1:05:43
Speaker 2: know what I mean.
1:05:43
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean this is just a good argument for
1:05:46
Speaker 1: simplicity and minimalism. You know, I think being a minimalist,
1:05:50
Speaker 1: which I don't know that I consider myself a staunch minimalist,
1:05:53
Speaker 1: but I definitely adhere to some of the principles. It's
1:05:56
Speaker 1: not about having the least number of things, about having
1:05:57
Speaker 1: the optimal number of things. And many of the items
1:06:01
Speaker 1: that we choose or are surrounded by in daily life,
1:06:03
Speaker 1: they give us way more than the optimal number. Now
1:06:05
Speaker 1: we're being bombarded by notifications and text messages and all
1:06:09
Speaker 1: kinds of stimuli that we're just fighting things that we
1:06:11
Speaker 1: didn't have to fight before.
1:06:13
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's getting Uh, it's getting really tricky. And it's
1:06:16
Speaker 2: weird how the things that foment these bad habits, like
1:06:23
Speaker 2: the cell phone or you know whatever app that is
1:06:26
Speaker 2: your favorite app. Like the amount of money and science
1:06:28
Speaker 2: that's gone into our video games, right, Like it's just
1:06:32
Speaker 2: all about like keeping you wed to it for as
1:06:35
Speaker 2: long as possible. Why is it that we can't channel
1:06:38
Speaker 2: all of that scientific genius and put that into things
1:06:43
Speaker 2: that are producing good habits instead? Right, Like all of that.
1:06:49
Speaker 2: You go to a Vegas casino, it's completely orchestrated to
1:06:52
Speaker 2: like keep you there as long as possible.
1:06:55
Speaker 1: Rights, it's an.
1:06:56
Speaker 2: Environment that is promoting a bad habit. Why can't we
1:07:01
Speaker 2: create environments with that amount of intentionality and money and
1:07:06
Speaker 2: science into promoting good habits.
1:07:09
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, capitalism I think is the overriding force here.
1:07:13
Speaker 1: You know, like it's not just casinos. Airports, for example,
1:07:17
Speaker 1: there are you know, really well paid airport designers that
1:07:20
Speaker 1: will come in to lay out a new terminal that
1:07:22
Speaker 1: will specifically decide where the walkways should be so that
1:07:25
Speaker 1: you weave through the maximum amount of stores and pass
1:07:27
Speaker 1: the right restaurants at the right time, and you know,
1:07:29
Speaker 1: to spend the most money while you're there. And so anyway,
1:07:34
Speaker 1: my point is just that capitalism is the overriding incentive
1:07:37
Speaker 1: for the people who do this stuff, and so the
1:07:39
Speaker 1: person who can figure out how to make a lot
1:07:42
Speaker 1: of money from good habits will have a strong reason
1:07:45
Speaker 1: to do it. But until people figure that out, you
1:07:48
Speaker 1: end up kind of we work for these companies that
1:07:51
Speaker 1: do it during the day, and then as individuals we
1:07:54
Speaker 1: want to redesign it for ourselves tonight, right, like all
1:07:57
Speaker 1: these YouTube like my kids are not watching YouTube, right,
1:08:00
Speaker 1: which is.
1:08:01
Speaker 2: You know, Jobs didn't let his kids have an iPad
1:08:05
Speaker 2: and you know that kind of thing, right, Yeah, I think,
1:08:08
Speaker 2: and and we need more of that. I just read
1:08:10
Speaker 2: the other day as well, there was a there's somewhere
1:08:12
Speaker 2: I think it was. I think it might be Russia.
1:08:14
Speaker 2: Maybe I'm remembering it wrong, but someplace where when you
1:08:18
Speaker 2: go to the train station or the subway instead of
1:08:23
Speaker 2: having if you if you did like ten burpies or
1:08:26
Speaker 2: I think I read, yeah, we need more of that.
1:08:31
Speaker 1: Yeah right, that's.
1:08:32
Speaker 2: Great, I know. So anyway, all right, okay, I want
1:08:35
Speaker 2: I have one more thing.
1:08:36
Speaker 1: I want to say. Let make it easy. So the
1:08:41
Speaker 1: simplest way to do this is to scale a habit down.
1:08:44
Speaker 1: And so in the book, I talked about this thing
1:08:45
Speaker 1: I call the two minute rule, and the idea is
1:08:47
Speaker 1: to just take whatever habit you're trying to build, and
1:08:49
Speaker 1: you scale it down to the first two minutes. And
1:08:52
Speaker 1: I had a I had a reader who did something
1:08:54
Speaker 1: similar to this. He ended up losing over one hundred pounds.
1:08:57
Speaker 1: And one of the ways that he did it was
1:08:59
Speaker 1: he went to the gym, but he wasn't allowed to
1:09:01
Speaker 1: stay for longer than five minutes. So sounds kind of crazy,
1:09:05
Speaker 1: but for the first six weeks he went and he
1:09:07
Speaker 1: showed up and he did like half an exercise, and
1:09:09
Speaker 1: then he would leave and go home and to most people,
1:09:12
Speaker 1: they hear that and they're like, well, you know, it's
1:09:14
Speaker 1: kind of ridiculous, you're wasting your time. You're not actually
1:09:15
Speaker 1: going to get in shade from that. But the point
1:09:17
Speaker 1: is he was mastering the art of showing up, and
1:09:20
Speaker 1: a habit has to be established before it can be improved,
1:09:24
Speaker 1: you know, like until you become the person who shows
1:09:27
Speaker 1: up every day, there's nothing to optimize. We're so worried
1:09:30
Speaker 1: about figuring out the best diet plan or the best
1:09:33
Speaker 1: business idea, or the optimal way to you know, boost
1:09:36
Speaker 1: my bench press or whatever that we're we search for
1:09:39
Speaker 1: all these perfect plans, but we don't do the thing
1:09:42
Speaker 1: that is fundamental to all of it, which is just
1:09:44
Speaker 1: showing up. And the two minute rule is one way
1:09:47
Speaker 1: to do that. You know, like you want to do
1:09:48
Speaker 1: thirty minutes of yoga, well let's translate that into take
1:09:51
Speaker 1: out your yoga mat. Or if you want to read
1:09:54
Speaker 1: thirty books a year, let's translate that into read one page.
1:09:57
Speaker 1: But whatever, the first two minutes are the be behavior.
1:10:00
Speaker 1: Scale it down, master that, master the art of showing up,
1:10:03
Speaker 1: make it as easy as possible to get started. And
1:10:06
Speaker 1: then once you become that person and you're going to
1:10:08
Speaker 1: the gym every day or you're reading one page every day. Well,
1:10:11
Speaker 1: now you have options. Now you have choices, and you
1:10:13
Speaker 1: can upgrade and improve from there.
1:10:14
Speaker 2: Yeah.
1:10:15
Speaker 1: Yeah.
1:10:15
Speaker 2: Two observations on that. The first is it goes directly
1:10:19
Speaker 2: to something you talk about all the time, which is
1:10:23
Speaker 2: focusing on and optimizing the starting line versus the finish line. Right,
1:10:28
Speaker 2: like we all think about the finish line. We set
1:10:31
Speaker 2: goals that are all about the finish line, and we
1:10:33
Speaker 2: overlook how important the starting line is. And the more
1:10:36
Speaker 2: we can kind of we can have in the back
1:10:38
Speaker 2: of our mind that destination that we're aiming to go towards.
1:10:42
Speaker 2: But the more we can root ourselves in what's required
1:10:45
Speaker 2: to be at that starting line, then then it becomes
1:10:51
Speaker 2: digestible and doable and sustainable.
1:10:54
Speaker 1: You don't start the race, can't finish it, so people
1:10:56
Speaker 1: are all worried about the outcome. I mean everybody wants to,
1:11:00
Speaker 1: you know, whatever the outcome is, run a marathon, earn
1:11:03
Speaker 1: six figures, lose thirty pounds. It's all finish line focused.
1:11:06
Speaker 1: But you have to standardize before you optimize. It's like
1:11:09
Speaker 1: you have to make it thus standard in your life
1:11:12
Speaker 1: before you have the chance to optimize it and turn
1:11:14
Speaker 1: it into something more.
1:11:15
Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think it goes to the second point
1:11:18
Speaker 2: I was going to make. It goes to this idea
1:11:20
Speaker 2: that I think. I think a lot of people they
1:11:26
Speaker 2: they really overestimate what they can or should do in
1:11:31
Speaker 2: a single day, and they completely underestimate what they're capable
1:11:38
Speaker 2: of in a long term window. And I'm not meant
1:11:41
Speaker 2: I don't mean six months, I mean five years, ten years.
1:11:46
Speaker 2: But when you when you over when you overestimate the
1:11:51
Speaker 2: daily routine, it ultimately leads to burnout for most people
1:11:56
Speaker 2: because it's not sustainable, right. And if you can narrow
1:11:58
Speaker 2: that down and and put it into these small chunks
1:12:02
Speaker 2: like you're talking about, and create a situation in which
1:12:07
Speaker 2: you habituate gradually, and you create a lifestyle that's oriented
1:12:13
Speaker 2: around being able to maintain and build and optimize on that,
1:12:18
Speaker 2: that's where you're going to see the results way down
1:12:20
Speaker 2: the line.
1:12:21
Speaker 1: I think that's true. And it's hard. I mean this,
1:12:23
Speaker 1: I mentioned this in chapter one of the book. It's
1:12:25
Speaker 1: hard to feel that on a daily basis, right, Like it,
1:12:28
Speaker 1: I use the metaphor, but it's kind of like heating
1:12:29
Speaker 1: up an ice cube, you know, like you you're in
1:12:32
Speaker 1: a room, it's cold, you can see your breath. You've
1:12:34
Speaker 1: got this ice cube sitting on the table in front
1:12:36
Speaker 1: of you. It's like twenty five degrees, and you heat
1:12:38
Speaker 1: the room up, and it's twenty six, twenty seven, twenty eight,
1:12:40
Speaker 1: twenty nine, thirty nothing's happened. Ice cube is still sitting there,
1:12:44
Speaker 1: thirty one and then thirty two, one degree shift, just
1:12:48
Speaker 1: like all the other ones before it, and suddenly you
1:12:50
Speaker 1: hit this phase transition in the ice cube melts. And
1:12:53
Speaker 1: it's not that life is always like that, but it
1:12:55
Speaker 1: often feels like that, you know, like people put in
1:12:58
Speaker 1: a little bit of work, they scale it down to
1:13:00
Speaker 1: this little behavior and they think there's nothing happening here.
1:13:03
Speaker 1: It's like seeing an ice cube go from twenty five
1:13:04
Speaker 1: to twenty seven degrees, and so then you get you
1:13:07
Speaker 1: feel like I got to do more right. I need
1:13:09
Speaker 1: to try harder, I need a bigger goal, I need
1:13:11
Speaker 1: to be more ambitious because then I'll get a bigger result.
1:13:14
Speaker 1: But people don't realize that. Like showing up and doing
1:13:17
Speaker 1: something small for three months or six months and then
1:13:20
Speaker 1: complaining about not having results. It's kind of like complaining
1:13:23
Speaker 1: about heating and ice cube from twenty five to thirty
1:13:25
Speaker 1: degrees and not melting yet, not melting yet. The work
1:13:29
Speaker 1: wasn't being wasted. It's just stored, you know, like you
1:13:33
Speaker 1: and that that is a wholemark of any process that compounds,
1:13:37
Speaker 1: which is the most powerful outcomes are delayed. But when
1:13:40
Speaker 1: you're in the thick of it, when you're in the moment,
1:13:42
Speaker 1: it's really hard to feel that.
1:13:44
Speaker 2: Yeah, it feels like nothing's happening, feels like you're wasting
1:13:46
Speaker 2: the time. And that's why it's so important to understand
1:13:53
Speaker 2: that this is about identity, because if your only goal focused,
1:13:57
Speaker 2: then you're not going to be able to stay in
1:13:59
Speaker 2: it because you'll get just you'll get dissuaded or disappointed
1:14:03
Speaker 2: or whatever. But if this is fundamentally, if you've made
1:14:06
Speaker 2: a decision that this is who you are, I am
1:14:08
Speaker 2: this person that does this, then you're not so wed
1:14:12
Speaker 2: to the day in, day out results. You're not tabulating
1:14:16
Speaker 2: a spreadsheet every day about whether you're moving forward or not.
1:14:19
Speaker 1: So this is maybe a good time to bring up
1:14:21
Speaker 1: the fourth law behavior change, because this is a perfect
1:14:24
Speaker 1: example of it. So the fourth law is to make
1:14:25
Speaker 1: it satisfying. And what you really need is to make
1:14:28
Speaker 1: it immediately satisfying. And the ultimate manifestation of that is
1:14:33
Speaker 1: the reinforcement of your desired identity. If you are focused on,
1:14:37
Speaker 1: you know, losing thirty pounds and you go run for
1:14:40
Speaker 1: a month and then you're like, well, my body hasn't changed,
1:14:41
Speaker 1: scales the same, Well, you don't have any rewards to see.
1:14:44
Speaker 1: But if you're focused on becoming the type of person
1:14:46
Speaker 1: who runs three times a week, as soon as you
1:14:49
Speaker 1: step out the door and take two steps, you're reinforcing
1:14:52
Speaker 1: that identity so you can feel good in the moment,
1:14:55
Speaker 1: and even if it's in a small way, that's crucial
1:14:57
Speaker 1: for getting habits to stick. I mean, this is something
1:14:59
Speaker 1: that I refer to as the cardinal rule of behavior change,
1:15:02
Speaker 1: which is that behaviors that are immediately rewarded get repeated,
1:15:06
Speaker 1: behaviors that are immediately punished get avoided. And it's really
1:15:09
Speaker 1: about the speed of how quickly you feel satisfied or
1:15:12
Speaker 1: feel good. You know, It's kind of like if something
1:15:15
Speaker 1: feels good right after you finish it, it's like a
1:15:17
Speaker 1: positive emotional signal to your brain where it's like, hey,
1:15:19
Speaker 1: this was enjoyable, you should repeat this again next time.
1:15:22
Speaker 1: And so in that sense. Positive emotions cultivate habits and
1:15:26
Speaker 1: negative emotions destroy them, and you really want to find
1:15:29
Speaker 1: a way to feel good, to feel successful as soon
1:15:32
Speaker 1: as you finish. Yeah, that's interesting.
1:15:35
Speaker 2: How important is momentum in all of this? Because I
1:15:40
Speaker 2: know that as diligent as I am about my training
1:15:45
Speaker 2: and my working out, I think most people would agree.
1:15:50
Speaker 2: If you're in the habit of like going to the
1:15:52
Speaker 2: gym every day and you're seeing results, you're part of
1:15:56
Speaker 2: that community, and then something happens, you got a business
1:15:59
Speaker 2: trip or some whatever, like some wrench gets thrown in
1:16:02
Speaker 2: your plans and you miss a day or two or
1:16:04
Speaker 2: maybe three days. That becomes so hard to go back
1:16:10
Speaker 2: when it was so easy to go every single day
1:16:12
Speaker 2: prior to that. And that's where you see people completely
1:16:15
Speaker 2: fall off the wagon, and then six months goes by,
1:16:18
Speaker 2: a year goes by, and they haven't gone once. Yeah,
1:16:21
Speaker 2: so psychologically there's something very strange that's going on with
1:16:25
Speaker 2: that that that makes that momentum something so special and
1:16:32
Speaker 2: mystical that that really needs to be like respected and
1:16:36
Speaker 2: cared for because it's so powerful.
1:16:38
Speaker 1: It's kind of like Newton's laws applied to habits. You know,
1:16:40
Speaker 1: objects that are in motion, stay in motion. Objects at rest,
1:16:43
Speaker 1: stay at rest. But so there's a wise lesson there
1:16:48
Speaker 1: in what you're you're mentioning, which is, first of all,
1:16:51
Speaker 1: all habits streaks end at some point, you know, like
1:16:53
Speaker 1: everybody slips up at some point. And the mantra that
1:16:57
Speaker 1: I like to keep in mind for that, for myself
1:16:59
Speaker 1: as much as anybody else, is never missed twice. So
1:17:03
Speaker 1: if I work out the gym Monday, Wednesday, Friday, and
1:17:06
Speaker 1: I miss on Friday because of a business trip or whatever,
1:17:08
Speaker 1: then I need to put all my energy into making
1:17:10
Speaker 1: sure I get in there on Monday. I don't want
1:17:12
Speaker 1: to miss twice in a row. It's pretty much never
1:17:15
Speaker 1: the first mistake that ruins you. It's like the spiral
1:17:18
Speaker 1: of repeated mistakes that follows, so you can get back
1:17:21
Speaker 1: on track quickly. There. I think I have a line
1:17:23
Speaker 1: in the book something like missing once is a mistake,
1:17:27
Speaker 1: Missing twice is the start of a new habit.
1:17:29
Speaker 2: Yeah, because then it creates its own negative momentum, right, yes, right, exactly. Yeah,
1:17:33
Speaker 2: it's like what's the next right action?
1:17:36
Speaker 1: You know?
1:17:36
Speaker 2: And if you are, if you are identity based, you'll say, well,
1:17:40
Speaker 2: you know, I'm a writer, so I write, this is
1:17:42
Speaker 2: what I do.
1:17:42
Speaker 1: Yeah, it don't take two days off. I mean the
1:17:46
Speaker 1: diets are like the most common example of this. What
1:17:48
Speaker 1: we're really talking about here is this kind of all
1:17:50
Speaker 1: or nothing mentality that people have where it's like, well,
1:17:53
Speaker 1: I did the diet for five days, but then my
1:17:55
Speaker 1: friends wanted to go to happy hour and I bingeade
1:17:57
Speaker 1: a little bit, and so I guess I'm just not
1:17:58
Speaker 1: made for you.
1:17:59
Speaker 2: I guess just too hard. So I'm just giving up
1:18:01
Speaker 2: instead of just like, well, you know what, the next
1:18:03
Speaker 2: time I haven't, I'm going to sit down to eat.
1:18:05
Speaker 2: I'm going to make a healthy choice exactly. And maybe
1:18:07
Speaker 2: it's not perfect, but at least it's not burger king.
1:18:10
Speaker 1: I wish I hadn't been ja, but never missed twice.
1:18:13
Speaker 1: So I'm going to make sure that next time I
1:18:14
Speaker 1: get back on track and eat a healthy meal. Yeah.
1:18:17
Speaker 1: So I do think momentum plays a role there. There's
1:18:19
Speaker 1: also a second note about momentum, and this comes back
1:18:22
Speaker 1: to like video games and some of the stuff we
1:18:24
Speaker 1: talked about earlier, and to that cardinal rule of behavior
1:18:27
Speaker 1: change that I mentioned a lot of times. The momentum
1:18:29
Speaker 1: is built on the speed of the feedback cycle. So
1:18:33
Speaker 1: we have so far in this conversation been talking about
1:18:36
Speaker 1: habits kind of from like this larger macro level of
1:18:38
Speaker 1: like a habit like going to the gym or writing
1:18:41
Speaker 1: or something like that. But really, biologically speaking, this process
1:18:45
Speaker 1: of those four stages, your brain is going through this
1:18:47
Speaker 1: endlessly and all the time, and in the fraction of
1:18:49
Speaker 1: a second. So you know, take something like turning on
1:18:54
Speaker 1: the light switch. You walk into the room, que the
1:18:56
Speaker 1: room is dark, craving. I predict that if I turn
1:18:59
Speaker 1: the light on, it'll be better and reduce uncertainty, and
1:19:01
Speaker 1: I want to be able to see response. I flip
1:19:04
Speaker 1: on the light switch. Reward, the room is now lit
1:19:06
Speaker 1: and I can see and all of that happens in
1:19:08
Speaker 1: you know, a half a second. And so your brain
1:19:11
Speaker 1: is going through those cycles all the time. So in
1:19:13
Speaker 1: a sense, you're kind of always going through these little behaviors,
1:19:17
Speaker 1: and those little microcycles can build momentum as you go
1:19:21
Speaker 1: through something. If they're tight enough and you have signals
1:19:24
Speaker 1: of progress, you're getting positive feedback. And this is what
1:19:27
Speaker 1: video games are incredible at. As you go through any level,
1:19:31
Speaker 1: there are little counters in the corner. Your score is
1:19:33
Speaker 1: going up, you're collecting more rubies and coins. Every time
1:19:36
Speaker 1: you grab a power up or a weapon or something,
1:19:38
Speaker 1: there's a little jingle or chime. Even the pitter pattern
1:19:41
Speaker 1: of steps as you like advance through the scene is
1:19:44
Speaker 1: a signal that you're making positive progress. And what video
1:19:49
Speaker 1: games can do that it's very hard to do in
1:19:51
Speaker 1: daily life is they can keep you right on the
1:19:54
Speaker 1: edge so that you're challenged just enough but still making progress.
1:19:58
Speaker 1: You know, like, if you are really killing it on
1:20:00
Speaker 1: a certain level, they start to take away some of
1:20:02
Speaker 1: those power ups and give you more difficult challenges to face.
1:20:05
Speaker 1: If you're struggling, they'll give you more coins and rubies
1:20:08
Speaker 1: and you know, like help you along a little bit.
1:20:10
Speaker 1: And so they are always making sure that you're making
1:20:14
Speaker 1: just enough progress through the level while still being challenged
1:20:16
Speaker 1: enough to be engaged. And that is like a I mean,
1:20:20
Speaker 1: this has been shown with research, variable rewards and keeping
1:20:23
Speaker 1: you kind of on this razor's edge of difficulty is
1:20:26
Speaker 1: one of the peak ways to maintain motivation and momentum
1:20:29
Speaker 1: and want to stay engaged with the habit, and technology
1:20:33
Speaker 1: makes it easier for us to do that, which is
1:20:35
Speaker 1: one reason those behaviors and games are so addictive.
1:20:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's ingenious, it's just being channeled for
1:20:42
Speaker 2: a less than productive outcome for a human animal, right, Like,
1:20:47
Speaker 2: it just makes me go back to that point of like,
1:20:50
Speaker 2: why can't we take all of that and create a
1:20:53
Speaker 2: healthy eating or a fitness app, or an app that
1:20:57
Speaker 2: would work within the structure of a professional organization to
1:21:02
Speaker 2: enhance productivity. So I think creativity.
1:21:04
Speaker 1: I think it's possible, but I think that it probably
1:21:07
Speaker 1: won't take the form that people would expect. In many cases,
1:21:12
Speaker 1: the most effective behavior change apps actually change behavior through
1:21:15
Speaker 1: like a trapdoor. And this is just me theorizing right now,
1:21:19
Speaker 1: I don't have any proof of this, but like, if
1:21:21
Speaker 1: I think about what is the most effective exercise app
1:21:23
Speaker 1: that's been created in the last decade, Well, it's probably
1:21:26
Speaker 1: not actually an exercise app. It's probably something like Pokemon
1:21:29
Speaker 1: Go because that got people. I I got millions of
1:21:32
Speaker 1: people to walk five or ten miles a day, but
1:21:36
Speaker 1: it wasn't an exercise app at all. And I think
1:21:39
Speaker 1: that there's something maybe there for people who do have
1:21:42
Speaker 1: good intentions, who want to change the world in a
1:21:44
Speaker 1: positive way and are really serious about changing behavior. Think
1:21:48
Speaker 1: about what those trapdoors are what are things that actually
1:21:51
Speaker 1: motivate people saving money, making more money, winning the appraise
1:21:55
Speaker 1: and approval and respect to their friends, earning a higher
1:21:58
Speaker 1: score on the leader board. And if you can figure
1:22:01
Speaker 1: out how to have a secondary healthy behavior happening as
1:22:05
Speaker 1: they do that, that might actually be something that could
1:22:08
Speaker 1: really stick and get millions of people to do something different.
1:22:11
Speaker 2: Yeah, we explain that idea of the secondary healthy habit.
1:22:15
Speaker 1: So pokemon go. The real thing that people are trying
1:22:18
Speaker 1: to do is collect these pokemon and get a higher
1:22:20
Speaker 1: score in whatever. But the secondary habit is to do that,
1:22:23
Speaker 1: you have to go walk around the world and see
1:22:25
Speaker 1: where they're hidden throughout the park and all that type
1:22:27
Speaker 1: of stuff. And so it's not none of the people
1:22:30
Speaker 1: playing that thing, I'm going to walk five miles today. Yeah,
1:22:33
Speaker 1: they just think I need to go find where this
1:22:34
Speaker 1: thing is.
1:22:35
Speaker 2: Yeah, and it goes back to your original law, which is,
1:22:41
Speaker 2: you know, creating a system that promotes the healthy behavior
1:22:48
Speaker 2: without people even necessarily being consciously aware of it. Right,
1:22:52
Speaker 2: That's ultimately how you move the needle.
1:22:54
Speaker 1: It happens all the time, you know. I Mean, we've
1:22:55
Speaker 1: talked about multiple negative or maybe less healthy examples with
1:23:00
Speaker 1: cell phones and things like that where we aren't really
1:23:03
Speaker 1: thinking about like oh, I want to sit on my
1:23:05
Speaker 1: couch and browse Instagram for three hours. Like nobody's waking
1:23:07
Speaker 1: up thinking that. They're just thinking, oh, I've got more
1:23:09
Speaker 1: likes and you know, what are my friends up to?
1:23:11
Speaker 1: And blah blah blah. So that's kind of a secondary
1:23:14
Speaker 1: action that comes from that, And this is just twisting
1:23:17
Speaker 1: it or flipping it on its head a little bit
1:23:19
Speaker 1: and thinking about how we can have secondary actions that
1:23:21
Speaker 1: are healthier.
1:23:23
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, So what's the difference between focusing on
1:23:28
Speaker 2: creating a good habit versus focusing on eradicating or overcoming
1:23:35
Speaker 2: a bad habit? Like where should the focus and intention go. Yeah,
1:23:39
Speaker 2: that's a great question. I haven't been asked that before,
1:23:41
Speaker 2: but I think actually there's some important like keys. So
1:23:46
Speaker 2: let me start with a bad habit. I think the
1:23:49
Speaker 2: most effective place to.
1:23:51
Speaker 1: Focus on breaking a bad habit is the first and
1:23:53
Speaker 1: the third stage of my four step model. So the
1:23:56
Speaker 1: first stage is making it invisible. So that's like reducing exposure.
1:24:01
Speaker 1: So you know, I talked about like hiding the television
1:24:04
Speaker 1: for example, or really common example people here like make
1:24:07
Speaker 1: sure you don't have any sweets in the house, like.
1:24:08
Speaker 2: Remove that type of food your pantry.
1:24:12
Speaker 1: So in many cases, again not for true addictions, but
1:24:15
Speaker 1: for just these bad habits that we have, we just
1:24:18
Speaker 1: do them because they're around us. So it's like, well,
1:24:20
Speaker 1: if you want to spend less money on electronics, don't
1:24:24
Speaker 1: follow all the tech review blogs. You know you're constantly
1:24:26
Speaker 1: being prompted to buy something. Or if you want to
1:24:29
Speaker 1: lose weight, don't follow a bunch of food bloggers on Instagram.
1:24:32
Speaker 1: You know, you're like continually have to overcome that stimuli.
1:24:35
Speaker 1: So the more that you can cut out that stimuli
1:24:38
Speaker 1: and reduce exposure to the negative cues, maybe that bad
1:24:41
Speaker 1: habit loop just never gets started. And so that's one
1:24:44
Speaker 1: effective way I'd skip over the second stage because our
1:24:49
Speaker 1: interpretation of cues, the prediction that we have, it happens
1:24:53
Speaker 1: so fast. It happens lightning fast. As soon as you
1:24:55
Speaker 1: see that food blog on Instagram, you immediately think about
1:24:57
Speaker 1: your mouth watering and wanting to eat something. And be
1:25:00
Speaker 1: able to like shortcut that and circumvent that it's possible.
1:25:05
Speaker 1: One of the things that you would have to do
1:25:06
Speaker 1: is like kind of reframe your mindset and make that
1:25:10
Speaker 1: thing that previously meant something means something else, which you
1:25:14
Speaker 1: can do, but it's just it's hard, so hard.
1:25:17
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is operating on the unconscious mind, right, So
1:25:21
Speaker 2: you can rewire your neurology over time, right, new habits
1:25:26
Speaker 2: that create those new neural pathways. But that's a steeper
1:25:30
Speaker 2: mountain to climb, and it takes a long time.
1:25:33
Speaker 1: You know. So if you join a you know, if
1:25:35
Speaker 1: you if you previously ate pork, but then you join
1:25:38
Speaker 1: a religion that doesn't allow you to eat pork and
1:25:41
Speaker 1: you start to belong to that group and you develop
1:25:43
Speaker 1: friends there and stuff, well then yeah, maybe at some
1:25:44
Speaker 1: point you'll see pork is very unattractive. So you've like
1:25:47
Speaker 1: reframed how you interpret that queue. But it's it might
1:25:51
Speaker 1: take a while to do that. You need to actually
1:25:52
Speaker 1: build the friendships and have a strong reason to stick with,
1:25:55
Speaker 1: you know, with that new belief system. So anyway, I'm
1:25:59
Speaker 1: gonna skip over the secon stage because it's I think
1:26:01
Speaker 1: it's more difficult for a bad habit. And then the
1:26:03
Speaker 1: other area where I think you can focus is the
1:26:05
Speaker 1: third step, which is make it difficult in the case
1:26:08
Speaker 1: of breaking a bad habit, and if you can increase
1:26:10
Speaker 1: the friction enough you won't follow through. So one of
1:26:13
Speaker 1: the examples I like to give Victor Hugo, famous writer
1:26:18
Speaker 1: and author. He signed this book deal to write The
1:26:20
Speaker 1: Hunchback of Notre Dame, and he just kind of like
1:26:23
Speaker 1: goofed off for a year. He had friends over and
1:26:25
Speaker 1: had a bunch of parties. He went and traveled, he
1:26:27
Speaker 1: went out to restaurants. He didn't really do a whole lot.
1:26:29
Speaker 1: And the publishers got all annoyed with him and they
1:26:32
Speaker 1: set this all to meatum, and they were like, listen,
1:26:34
Speaker 1: you need to get this book done in six months.
1:26:35
Speaker 1: We're going to cancel a deal. So he had his
1:26:38
Speaker 1: assistant come into his room and took all of his
1:26:42
Speaker 1: clothes out of his closet and put him in a
1:26:43
Speaker 1: chest and they locked him up, and the only thing
1:26:46
Speaker 1: that he was left with was like this large shawl,
1:26:48
Speaker 1: this like robe. And so he didn't have any clothes
1:26:51
Speaker 1: that were suitable for having friends over or for hosting parties.
1:26:54
Speaker 1: He couldn't travel outside of the house. He effectively put
1:26:57
Speaker 1: himself on house arrest. And so my point there was
1:27:00
Speaker 1: he made it difficult to procrastinate. He made it difficult
1:27:03
Speaker 1: to do the behavior he didn't want to do, and
1:27:06
Speaker 1: it ended up working. He got the book done like
1:27:07
Speaker 1: two weeks early. He wrote in like five and a half months,
1:27:10
Speaker 1: and then you know, now we have the hunchback Notre Dame.
1:27:12
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it goes back to being intentional about
1:27:16
Speaker 2: your environment. I heard a similar story about Jonathan Franzen.
1:27:20
Speaker 2: I think it was when he was writing Freedom maybe,
1:27:24
Speaker 2: but he rented like a crappy, like the most unappealing office,
1:27:31
Speaker 2: like little like like almost like a hotel room in
1:27:35
Speaker 2: a terrible building like in Santa Cruz, with like no
1:27:38
Speaker 2: view or any and all it was was like like
1:27:41
Speaker 2: a horrible table and a really uncomfortable chair, and it
1:27:45
Speaker 2: was like nothing on the walls. Nothing, you know, just
1:27:47
Speaker 2: to go, no distractions, just write.
1:27:50
Speaker 1: Maya Angelou does something similar. I think she for many
1:27:53
Speaker 1: of her books, she rents a hotel room and she
1:27:55
Speaker 1: leaves her house, drives there and writes, there's nothing else that.
1:27:58
Speaker 2: A lot of a lot of screenwriters in hall do that.
1:28:01
Speaker 2: They go to fancy hotels and order lots of room service. Yeah,
1:28:07
Speaker 2: I mean that makes sense. So back to this idea
1:28:09
Speaker 2: of focusing on building good habits versus So that's where
1:28:14
Speaker 2: I think you should focus for bad habits for good habits.
1:28:17
Speaker 2: I really think all four are effective. The stuff that
1:28:20
Speaker 2: we talked about earlier with making it attractive and joining
1:28:22
Speaker 2: a new tribe. I think that's the most difficult of
1:28:26
Speaker 2: the four because you're asking someone to change their friend
1:28:29
Speaker 2: group or to find new friends.
1:28:30
Speaker 1: At least you do. I don't think you have to
1:28:32
Speaker 1: abandon the people that are in your currently in your
1:28:34
Speaker 1: life if you want to change your habits, but it's
1:28:36
Speaker 1: just easier to adopt a new habit if you have
1:28:38
Speaker 1: some friends that are also doing that new thing.
1:28:40
Speaker 2: Is there any research on the difference between an in
1:28:45
Speaker 2: person peer group like joining a running club or whatever,
1:28:49
Speaker 2: versus like being on a Facebook group where like you're
1:28:53
Speaker 2: somewhere where that community doesn't exist, but you have this
1:28:56
Speaker 2: peer group that's available to you through the laptop.
1:29:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a good question. I have not seen studies
1:29:02
Speaker 1: on it. It's possible something has been done. I just
1:29:04
Speaker 1: haven't seen it. But I think that having a group,
1:29:07
Speaker 1: like you're a member of a community on Reddit or
1:29:10
Speaker 1: a Facebook group or something like that, it's probably better
1:29:13
Speaker 1: than not having it. If nothing else, you're kind of
1:29:15
Speaker 1: like seeding those ideas in your brain. That maybe you
1:29:17
Speaker 1: wouldn't be getting from your physical environment. But what I'm
1:29:21
Speaker 1: really interested to see, and who knows when this will happen.
1:29:24
Speaker 1: Maybe it will be ten years, maybe will be one hundred,
1:29:25
Speaker 1: but some kind of augmented reality or virtual reality solution
1:29:29
Speaker 1: I was just talking to Definitely. I was just talking
1:29:31
Speaker 1: to someone the other day about this. She has this
1:29:33
Speaker 1: idea of this company where it's virtual reality and you
1:29:37
Speaker 1: effectively use it for like self improvement or behavior change.
1:29:40
Speaker 1: So you just throw the goggles on and now you're
1:29:42
Speaker 1: suddenly in a room with ten other people who are
1:29:44
Speaker 1: trying to build the same habit that you are. So
1:29:46
Speaker 1: it's like a Facebook group, except it feels like you're
1:29:49
Speaker 1: in person. Right, everybody knows that being in a Facebook
1:29:52
Speaker 1: group doesn't feel like what it feels like to go
1:29:54
Speaker 1: to your local gym. Yeah, but what if suddenly it did,
1:29:56
Speaker 1: if it did have more of that feel and it
1:29:58
Speaker 1: felt almost real, then I don't know, I'd be interested
1:30:01
Speaker 1: to know, Like you could live anywhere you live in
1:30:03
Speaker 1: the middle of the woods and suddenly have access to
1:30:07
Speaker 1: what feels like an in person group and maybe get
1:30:09
Speaker 1: the accountability from that.
1:30:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I think there's no way that's not happening.
1:30:13
Speaker 1: Yeah, agreed.
1:30:14
Speaker 2: I mean there'll be a lot of crazy, not so
1:30:16
Speaker 2: good stuff it comes with that, you know, technology, But
1:30:20
Speaker 2: I could see all kinds of benefits with that kind
1:30:22
Speaker 2: of thing. Yeah, what about this idea of the way
1:30:28
Speaker 2: in which the adoption of good habits begin to crowd
1:30:32
Speaker 2: out the bad habits.
1:30:34
Speaker 1: So that was going to be one of the next
1:30:35
Speaker 1: things I wanted to add to the good habits piece.
1:30:37
Speaker 1: There are two things, that's one of them. In many cases,
1:30:41
Speaker 1: building a good habit, it's kind of like, you know
1:30:42
Speaker 1: how plants can like crowd another out, and so as
1:30:46
Speaker 1: the good habit is formed, it kind of naturally crowds
1:30:49
Speaker 1: out the bad one. So let's say, for example, that
1:30:51
Speaker 1: you both want to get in shape and work out more,
1:30:54
Speaker 1: and you wish you watched less TV or something. Well,
1:30:58
Speaker 1: if you usually watch TV for three hours when you
1:31:00
Speaker 1: get home from work each day, and you just get
1:31:03
Speaker 1: home from work and change in your workout clothes and
1:31:05
Speaker 1: go to the gym instead, and you just focus on
1:31:06
Speaker 1: the habit of going to the gym, you don't even
1:31:09
Speaker 1: really need to think about the television one. It just
1:31:10
Speaker 1: doesn't happen automatically because you're at the gym and you're
1:31:12
Speaker 1: working out during that time. So there are lots of
1:31:16
Speaker 1: times when stuff like that will occur where the creation
1:31:18
Speaker 1: of a good habit will just naturally crowd out a
1:31:21
Speaker 1: bad one. And another way to think about this is
1:31:24
Speaker 1: behaviors often come in bundles, like they're related to each other, right,
1:31:28
Speaker 1: Like you go to the bathroom and then you wash
1:31:31
Speaker 1: your hands, and then after you wash your hands, you
1:31:33
Speaker 1: dry your hands, and drying your hands reminds you that
1:31:35
Speaker 1: you need to throw the laundry in and then you
1:31:37
Speaker 1: think about, oh, we're out of detergent, so then we
1:31:39
Speaker 1: need to go to the store. And you know, like
1:31:40
Speaker 1: they're all kind of connected. And in many cases, both
1:31:45
Speaker 1: bad habits and good habits can kind of come in
1:31:47
Speaker 1: these bundles. And so if you if you start to
1:31:50
Speaker 1: do something else that like pulls on one thread in
1:31:52
Speaker 1: the bundle, then the whole stack of bad habits like fi.
1:31:56
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not a binary one to one equation. If
1:31:59
Speaker 2: you start going to the gym and you start to
1:32:03
Speaker 2: see results, then you're going to be more interested in
1:32:05
Speaker 2: eating healthy, and then you're going to be more interested
1:32:07
Speaker 2: in getting a good night's sleep. And then Hey, what's
1:32:10
Speaker 2: this meditation thing? And before you know it, like you know,
1:32:13
Speaker 2: your life is completely different.
1:32:15
Speaker 1: That's why I think exercise is like one of my
1:32:17
Speaker 1: keystone habits, one of the crucial ones for me, because
1:32:20
Speaker 1: I have like this post workout high where I can
1:32:22
Speaker 1: focus for like an hour and get some good work
1:32:24
Speaker 1: done or think clearly. I tend to eat better naturally,
1:32:27
Speaker 1: just which is weird, right. You would think, oh, you
1:32:29
Speaker 1: work out, so then you could waste it, but I
1:32:30
Speaker 1: don't want to waste it. That's like kind of the feeling.
1:32:33
Speaker 1: I sleep better at night because I'm tired, which means
1:32:35
Speaker 1: I wake up in the morning and I have better energy.
1:32:38
Speaker 1: And at no point was I trying to build better
1:32:40
Speaker 1: sleep habits or energy habits, or focus habits or nutrition habits.
1:32:43
Speaker 1: It all just kind of came as this natural side effect.
1:32:46
Speaker 1: And exercise is a common one. I mean it's mine,
1:32:49
Speaker 1: but it's also common to many people. What are the
1:32:51
Speaker 1: other ones, Well, there's like visualization is one that you
1:32:55
Speaker 1: hear from a lot of performers like comedians or something.
1:32:58
Speaker 1: They'll go through the same visualization routine, or athletes before
1:33:00
Speaker 1: they step onto stage or step out to perform a
1:33:04
Speaker 1: daily walk is a really common one amongst creatives. There's
1:33:07
Speaker 1: a book called Daily Rituals by Mason Currie where he
1:33:10
Speaker 1: talks about the rituals of a bunch of scientists and
1:33:13
Speaker 1: composers and writers, and probably like seventy five percent of
1:33:17
Speaker 1: it was alcohol and drugs. And then the ones that
1:33:20
Speaker 1: are clean at daily walk is like the ones that
1:33:22
Speaker 1: are still producing at a high level.
1:33:25
Speaker 2: Twenty years later. You know, have you heard of what
1:33:28
Speaker 2: David Sedaris does? No?
1:33:29
Speaker 1: What does he do?
1:33:30
Speaker 2: It's insane? He I mean, he's bananas in the best way,
1:33:35
Speaker 2: but he has some very weird behavioral quirks. And I
1:33:39
Speaker 2: think this must be driven by some kind of bizarre OCD.
1:33:42
Speaker 2: But he lives like in the English countryside, and for
1:33:46
Speaker 2: some reason he just became obsessed with the amount of
1:33:51
Speaker 2: like litter that was everywhere. So he would he started
1:33:54
Speaker 2: out like and this goes back to like creatives taking
1:33:57
Speaker 2: a walk, Like you.
1:33:57
Speaker 1: Go out and he pick up litter.
1:34:00
Speaker 2: And now he walks every day for like eight hours,
1:34:06
Speaker 2: picking up litter all over the place every single day.
1:34:08
Speaker 2: Like it's some weird compulsion where he just feels like
1:34:12
Speaker 2: and when he travels and he goes out of town,
1:34:14
Speaker 2: like he does it in whatever he'll do, whatever he is,
1:34:17
Speaker 2: but like not for like an hour, like eight hours.
1:34:20
Speaker 2: I was like, well, there's something very unhealthy about that.
1:34:23
Speaker 2: But at the same time, I was left wondering, like,
1:34:26
Speaker 2: how does that inform his creative process? Like perhaps this
1:34:30
Speaker 2: is by giving him some kind of steady, low state activity,
1:34:35
Speaker 2: it allows him to free associate in a certain way
1:34:38
Speaker 2: that perhaps contributes to the incredible writing that he does.
1:34:41
Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't know the science behind that,
1:34:43
Speaker 1: but I have had similar thoughts to the one you
1:34:46
Speaker 1: just had, which is maybe like going for a walk
1:34:49
Speaker 1: kind of gives your yeah, the steady state, or like
1:34:52
Speaker 1: maybe it even gives your non conscious something to do,
1:34:55
Speaker 1: and then you somehow like get out of your own
1:34:57
Speaker 1: way a little bit because you're busy doing that stuff
1:35:00
Speaker 1: and like making one foot move in front of the other,
1:35:02
Speaker 1: and that opens up the floodgates for an interesting idea
1:35:05
Speaker 1: to hit you.
1:35:05
Speaker 2: Right.
1:35:07
Speaker 1: But Okay, so I didn't know that that was where
1:35:09
Speaker 1: you're going with the Cedarus thing, but I had heard
1:35:11
Speaker 1: that at some point that he has this, and I
1:35:13
Speaker 1: heard a great story, which is that he so he
1:35:15
Speaker 1: goes around picking up this garbage for like eight or
1:35:17
Speaker 1: nine hours and he's done it so much that he
1:35:20
Speaker 1: got this award from the Queen of England, yeah for
1:35:24
Speaker 1: picking it up. And he thought that he was going
1:35:27
Speaker 1: to have like a private audience with the Queen for it,
1:35:30
Speaker 1: and so he goes to Buckingham Palace and it turns
1:35:32
Speaker 1: out there like four thousand other people that are being
1:35:34
Speaker 1: honored for their civic work as well. And anyway, it's
1:35:37
Speaker 1: just talking about like how he thought he was going
1:35:39
Speaker 1: to get to spend like an hour with the Queen
1:35:41
Speaker 1: and instead she like shook his hand for half a
1:35:43
Speaker 1: second and took a picture and then that was it.
1:35:48
Speaker 1: All right? Anyway, where were we we were talking about? Okay,
1:35:54
Speaker 1: so there was another year crowding crowding out and the
1:35:58
Speaker 1: oh well, okay, let me wrap up the So visualization
1:36:01
Speaker 1: going for a walk, exercise, and then meditation is a
1:36:05
Speaker 1: common keystone habit that people will talk about, especially you
1:36:07
Speaker 1: know CEOs or whatever. They get their ten minutes of
1:36:09
Speaker 1: meditation in or twenty minutes and they feel like the
1:36:11
Speaker 1: rest of the day kind of falls in line. And
1:36:14
Speaker 1: then another weird one that I've heard about from some
1:36:16
Speaker 1: of my readers is budgeting or specifically paying off debt.
1:36:20
Speaker 1: When people pay their debt off, it starts to ripple
1:36:22
Speaker 1: into other areas that like start exercising and stuffing, like
1:36:25
Speaker 1: you know, this wasn't even part of it, but it
1:36:27
Speaker 1: seems too well, it's such a.
1:36:29
Speaker 2: Heavy, you know thing to kind of just carry it
1:36:31
Speaker 2: like a dull, low grade, you know, burden. It just
1:36:37
Speaker 2: weighs on you without you even really being consciously aware
1:36:40
Speaker 2: of it. And when you're carrying something like that around,
1:36:42
Speaker 2: or you're under undue financial duress, it's hard to be creative,
1:36:49
Speaker 2: it's hard to be your best self because it's just
1:36:52
Speaker 2: this thing that's weighing on you all the time.
1:36:55
Speaker 1: So those are some of the keystone habits. The only
1:36:57
Speaker 1: other point I was going to make about crowding out
1:37:00
Speaker 1: habits and focusing on good ones is that figuring out
1:37:03
Speaker 1: ways to feel successful in the moment, that immediate satisfaction,
1:37:07
Speaker 1: that's a really strong place to focus for building good habits.
1:37:12
Speaker 1: There are some examples. Products are really good example that
1:37:14
Speaker 1: businesses are good at this. So like chewing gum for
1:37:18
Speaker 1: many years. Chewing gum has been around for a long time,
1:37:21
Speaker 1: but for most of the time it was like this
1:37:23
Speaker 1: bland resin it was chewy, but it wasn't tasty. And
1:37:26
Speaker 1: then Wriggly came along in the late eighteen hundreds and
1:37:28
Speaker 1: they added juicy fruit and spearmint and doublemint, and my
1:37:31
Speaker 1: first time taste, I don't know, nerves bored, I don't know,
1:37:36
Speaker 1: but they anyway, so they it was finally tasty right away,
1:37:40
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden, chewing gum takes office this
1:37:43
Speaker 1: worldwide habit. Wrigglely becomes the most popular chewing gum company
1:37:47
Speaker 1: in the world, and in modern society there are still
1:37:50
Speaker 1: tons of examples and stuff like this. Recently, a couple
1:37:53
Speaker 1: of years ago, BMW added this system to one of
1:37:56
Speaker 1: their cars where it would pump fake engine growl noise
1:38:00
Speaker 1: through the speakers, so whenever you stepped on the gas,
1:38:02
Speaker 1: it would like be more satisfying to red the engine.
1:38:05
Speaker 2: About that, we're such dumb as unbelievable.
1:38:10
Speaker 1: Ford is doing something similar. They have like this little
1:38:13
Speaker 1: valve system where usually it's blocked and the car is
1:38:16
Speaker 1: sound proved, but if you really slam on the gas,
1:38:18
Speaker 1: the valve open up and it'll let the engine noise
1:38:20
Speaker 1: in and you feel this guttural roar.
1:38:22
Speaker 2: The aliens should just come and take us over now
1:38:25
Speaker 2: and this is the end amazing.
1:38:27
Speaker 1: But the point here and how to apply it to
1:38:29
Speaker 1: good habits is that if you have some kind of
1:38:31
Speaker 1: immediate feedback, the immediate positive feedback can feel good in
1:38:35
Speaker 1: the moment, then you have a reason to repeat it.
1:38:37
Speaker 1: And we already talked about identity being one aspect of that,
1:38:40
Speaker 1: Like as soon as you go to the gym, you
1:38:41
Speaker 1: can feel like you're the type person who doesn't miss
1:38:43
Speaker 1: workouts or whatever, and that's one little bit of satisfaction.
1:38:47
Speaker 1: Habit tracking. I don't think you always need to track
1:38:50
Speaker 1: or measure your habits, but for certain areas, for the
1:38:52
Speaker 1: ones that are important to you, that can be an
1:38:53
Speaker 1: effective way to do this too, you know, Like the
1:38:56
Speaker 1: most simple form is you just put like an X
1:38:58
Speaker 1: on the calendar each time you do a workout or whatever. Well,
1:39:01
Speaker 1: if you do that every Monday and Wednesday and Friday,
1:39:04
Speaker 1: as soon as you finish the workout, it feels good
1:39:05
Speaker 1: to record that. I mean, I write down like all
1:39:07
Speaker 1: the sets and reps that I do. It feels good
1:39:09
Speaker 1: to close the book and have another workout finished.
1:39:11
Speaker 2: And of course there's a million apps now that do
1:39:13
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. From Strava to the Aura ring
1:39:16
Speaker 2: and everything in between.
1:39:18
Speaker 1: The point, though, the central point is just finding small
1:39:20
Speaker 1: ways to feel satisfied in the moment gives you a
1:39:22
Speaker 1: reason to repeat the good habit in the future.
1:39:25
Speaker 2: I like this idea of batching. You use this example
1:39:29
Speaker 2: of one way to kind of confront and overcome a
1:39:33
Speaker 2: bad habit is to combine it with a good habit.
1:39:37
Speaker 2: So there's the example of the woman who who you know,
1:39:42
Speaker 2: wanted to watch Hunger Games, but then she's like, she's
1:39:44
Speaker 2: only allowed to watch it if she's doing it while
1:39:46
Speaker 2: she's at the gym. So like creating the reward mechanism
1:39:50
Speaker 2: for the quote unquote like you know, less than stellar
1:39:53
Speaker 2: behavior has to be built into or part and parcel
1:39:56
Speaker 2: of doing something that is part of the healthy habit
1:39:59
Speaker 2: that you're trying to bring into your life.
1:40:02
Speaker 1: Yeah, So this is called temptation bundling. And the researcher
1:40:06
Speaker 1: Katie Milkman, who's at the Warden School at University of Pennsylvania,
1:40:11
Speaker 1: she's the one who actually had She ran the study,
1:40:13
Speaker 1: but she also had that personal example if she liked
1:40:15
Speaker 1: the Hunger Games, but she knew she needed to work
1:40:17
Speaker 1: out more, so she was only allowed to read the
1:40:19
Speaker 1: book at the gym. But it's a larger application of
1:40:22
Speaker 1: what's called premax principle, which is the psychological principle that
1:40:26
Speaker 1: behaviors that are more likely to be performed will reinforce
1:40:30
Speaker 1: behaviors that are less likely to be performed if you
1:40:32
Speaker 1: can kind of combine them together. And my favorite example
1:40:36
Speaker 1: of this, there's this engineering student in Ireland and he
1:40:41
Speaker 1: rigged up his stationary bike at home to his computer
1:40:46
Speaker 1: so that Netflix would only turn on when he was pedaling,
1:40:49
Speaker 1: and if he stopped pedaling, then Netflix would pause.
1:40:52
Speaker 2: It goes back to that same thing. We've created all
1:40:55
Speaker 2: these you know. Now we have so many things that
1:40:57
Speaker 2: we have to do to overcome the path, the links
1:41:02
Speaker 2: that we'll go to, you know.
1:41:03
Speaker 1: But in that case, Netflix was the more attractive or
1:41:06
Speaker 1: more satisfying behavior, and so you use that to incentivize
1:41:10
Speaker 1: himself to get on the site again on the bike
1:41:12
Speaker 1: and cycle.
1:41:13
Speaker 2: And it's that delicate balance, like if what he had
1:41:16
Speaker 2: to do to watch Netflix was too daunting, then you
1:41:21
Speaker 2: just wouldn't watch Netflix.
1:41:23
Speaker 1: Right.
1:41:23
Speaker 2: She has to be in that like sweet spot where
1:41:25
Speaker 2: it's uncomfortable but okay, I'll do it.
1:41:28
Speaker 1: This is kind of a larger overriding theme of our
1:41:31
Speaker 1: conversation so far, and something that's probably important to keep
1:41:33
Speaker 1: in mind, which is you need to be willing to experiment.
1:41:37
Speaker 1: You know, like everybody's running their race in life separately,
1:41:40
Speaker 1: and so you have to. You can use science to
1:41:42
Speaker 1: inform your strategy, and that's a good way. It's a
1:41:45
Speaker 1: good way to have educated guesses and kind of like
1:41:47
Speaker 1: nudge you in the right direction. But you have to
1:41:49
Speaker 1: be willing to perform these n of one experiments to see,
1:41:53
Speaker 1: you know, like, what is a habit that's right on
1:41:54
Speaker 1: that razor's edge that's just motivating enough that I'll go
1:41:57
Speaker 1: ahead and do it, but not so hard that I'm like, oh,
1:41:59
Speaker 1: just screw it entirely. Yeah, and only you can know
1:42:02
Speaker 1: that for yourself. And I think sometimes that's frustrating for
1:42:05
Speaker 1: people because they just want to be handed like a
1:42:07
Speaker 1: book and be like, hey, here's the answer. And as
1:42:10
Speaker 1: best I could, I tried to write that book for habits.
1:42:12
Speaker 1: But the truth is you need to you need to
1:42:15
Speaker 1: be willing to experiment and run these kind of personal
1:42:18
Speaker 1: journeys to figure out what does work for you.
1:42:21
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's no question about that. All right, let's talk
1:42:24
Speaker 2: about goals. You have some interesting thoughts on goals, the
1:42:31
Speaker 2: traditional conventional wisdom being like, hey, if you want to score,
1:42:34
Speaker 2: you got to set a goal. If you want to
1:42:36
Speaker 2: know where you're going, set a goal. No goal is
1:42:38
Speaker 2: too big, don't sell yourself short. And what's the problem
1:42:42
Speaker 2: with goals?
1:42:43
Speaker 1: Okay, so first, before I come off as someone who
1:42:46
Speaker 1: completely hates goals, I think goals are useful. I think
1:42:51
Speaker 1: they're useful for setting a sense of direction. But once
1:42:54
Speaker 1: you know what direction you're moving in, then I think
1:42:57
Speaker 1: it's best to put the goal on the shelf and
1:42:58
Speaker 1: focus on the system, or focused on the process and
1:43:01
Speaker 1: the habits. And this was first an idea that was
1:43:04
Speaker 1: kind of like thrown out to me or I saw
1:43:07
Speaker 1: this kind of dichotomy between systems and goals by Scott Adams,
1:43:10
Speaker 1: who wrote the Dilbert comic, and I think he's a
1:43:13
Speaker 1: little more adamant about it than I am. I think
1:43:15
Speaker 1: he says like goals are for losers and stuff like that,
1:43:17
Speaker 1: which I don't think is entirely true, but there is.
1:43:20
Speaker 1: There are a couple interesting problems with goals. So one
1:43:23
Speaker 1: problem is the winners and losers in any particular domain
1:43:27
Speaker 1: often have the same goals. So every Olympian wants to
1:43:31
Speaker 1: win the gold medal. Every candidate who applies for a
1:43:34
Speaker 1: job wants to get the job. So if they all
1:43:36
Speaker 1: have the same goal, by definition, the goal cannot be
1:43:40
Speaker 1: the thing that makes the difference between the people who
1:43:42
Speaker 1: get it and those who know'm.
1:43:43
Speaker 2: But you're not going to win the gold medal if
1:43:46
Speaker 2: you don't have a goal to win the gold medal.
1:43:48
Speaker 1: So I think we could say that goals are necessary
1:43:50
Speaker 1: but not sufficient, and that's why I think they're useful.
1:43:54
Speaker 1: They're useful for setting a sense of direction. You know,
1:43:56
Speaker 1: like every Nick Saban and Alabama show up, they know
1:43:59
Speaker 1: from day one the goal is to win the national title.
1:44:02
Speaker 1: And this is one of the beautiful things about sports
1:44:04
Speaker 1: is that it's so black and white like that it's
1:44:06
Speaker 1: so clear cut that okay, we all know what the
1:44:09
Speaker 1: goal is, and now we can just say, let's not
1:44:11
Speaker 1: talk about the national title, what practice every day, Let's
1:44:14
Speaker 1: just focus on the process in the system. But there
1:44:17
Speaker 1: isn't really a national championship of tech startups or of
1:44:21
Speaker 1: you know, of a lot of other things in life,
1:44:23
Speaker 1: and so for that it's like a little a little
1:44:26
Speaker 1: messier because people often need those milestones to know that
1:44:29
Speaker 1: they're still pointed in the right direction. So I think
1:44:32
Speaker 1: it's good for that. But I think that generally speaking,
1:44:35
Speaker 1: we have become a very goal and outcome obsess society,
1:44:39
Speaker 1: and part of that is because that's what the news
1:44:41
Speaker 1: shows us every day. You know, like you're never going
1:44:43
Speaker 1: to see a news story that is, like woman eats
1:44:47
Speaker 1: salad and chicken for lunch today, It's only a news
1:44:49
Speaker 1: story after she loses the Yeah, they probably have run
1:44:53
Speaker 1: that before, you know, but it's only after the outcome
1:44:57
Speaker 1: has occurred that it becomes a story. And social media
1:45:00
Speaker 1: has just like magnified this even more because all we
1:45:04
Speaker 1: do is just see people's outcomes and results and highlights
1:45:06
Speaker 1: all day long. I think because we are inundated with
1:45:09
Speaker 1: results and goals, we think having a big goal, having
1:45:13
Speaker 1: the result, having the outcome is what we should focus on,
1:45:16
Speaker 1: and so we spend ninety percent of our time thinking about,
1:45:19
Speaker 1: obsessing over planning these goals and only ten percent of
1:45:22
Speaker 1: our time actually worrying about the process, and it should
1:45:24
Speaker 1: probably be reversed. Well.
1:45:26
Speaker 2: I think what goals do well is they create clarity
1:45:34
Speaker 2: of purpose. Right, So, yes, sports is a very black
1:45:39
Speaker 2: and white template where goals make sense. Startup culture, well,
1:45:45
Speaker 2: you know what is the goal?
1:45:46
Speaker 1: Is it?
1:45:46
Speaker 2: You know, it's more unclear.
1:45:48
Speaker 1: But I think every successful startup.
1:45:51
Speaker 2: Or startup entrepreneur has some kind of true north, and
1:45:55
Speaker 2: that may not be financially rooted.
1:45:57
Speaker 1: It may be in changing the world or.
1:45:59
Speaker 2: Whatever it may be. But there needs to be a
1:46:02
Speaker 2: directional guidepost so that the team or the individual can
1:46:09
Speaker 2: cohere around a trajectory. So I think it makes sense
1:46:13
Speaker 2: in that regard because it's a reminder of like where
1:46:17
Speaker 2: you're going and why. But I agree with you that
1:46:20
Speaker 2: once you set the goal, then it becomes about systems,
1:46:23
Speaker 2: Like you should sort of forget about it and be
1:46:28
Speaker 2: and focus all of your attention on, like what is
1:46:31
Speaker 2: the next thing that you're doing right, rather than like
1:46:34
Speaker 2: talking about this thing that you know may not happen
1:46:38
Speaker 2: for ten years or twenty years. I mean, you know,
1:46:41
Speaker 2: I made jest of the Olympic goal goal, but you know,
1:46:45
Speaker 2: the person who wins the gold met'll probably set that
1:46:48
Speaker 2: goal when they're eight years old, right, So it's been
1:46:50
Speaker 2: this true north that's kind of gently guiding them in
1:46:55
Speaker 2: a certain direction for a very long time.
1:46:57
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, it's just add a couple things to that.
1:47:00
Speaker 1: So let's say that you are that tech startup and
1:47:03
Speaker 1: you have some clear goals about what you want the
1:47:05
Speaker 1: culture to be or the direction of the company to
1:47:09
Speaker 1: be where people should focus each day. The interesting thing
1:47:12
Speaker 1: is that the goals can be useful for that clarity,
1:47:14
Speaker 1: but really they don't determine much in the long run.
1:47:17
Speaker 1: Your true culture as a company is not the goals
1:47:20
Speaker 1: that you put on paper or the mission statement that
1:47:22
Speaker 1: you put on the wall. Your true culture is the
1:47:24
Speaker 1: shared habits of the team. If it's not a habit
1:47:27
Speaker 1: among the organization, it's not actually part of your culture.
1:47:30
Speaker 1: It's just something you did one time in like a
1:47:31
Speaker 1: thought building exercise. And I think that that kind of
1:47:34
Speaker 1: puts goals in their proper place, which is, yes, it's
1:47:38
Speaker 1: very useful for us all to know what direction we're
1:47:39
Speaker 1: trying to row in. But unless we're actually rowing, unless
1:47:42
Speaker 1: we're actually doing the habits, then it's not really part
1:47:45
Speaker 1: of this. And so that's one thing. The second thing
1:47:50
Speaker 1: is that achieving a goal only changes your life for
1:47:52
Speaker 1: the moment.
1:47:53
Speaker 2: It's temporal, right, whereas identity has a permanence to it.
1:47:57
Speaker 1: There's an example I use with this for cleaning your room.
1:48:01
Speaker 1: You know, like, you get really motivated and you got
1:48:03
Speaker 1: a messy room, and so your goal becomes to have
1:48:05
Speaker 1: a clean room. So you clean it up. But you
1:48:08
Speaker 1: have a clean room for the moment. But if you
1:48:10
Speaker 1: don't change like the sloppy, messy pack rat habits that
1:48:13
Speaker 1: led to a messy room in the first place, you
1:48:15
Speaker 1: turn around two weeks or a month later and you
1:48:17
Speaker 1: have a messy room again. And so we think that
1:48:20
Speaker 1: the thing that needs to change is the result, but
1:48:22
Speaker 1: actually what we really need to change is the process
1:48:25
Speaker 1: behind the results. We like, treat a symptom without treating
1:48:27
Speaker 1: the cause, right.
1:48:28
Speaker 2: Well, in your example, you're actually treating this symptom rather
1:48:32
Speaker 2: than the root cause. It's like taking a blood pressure
1:48:35
Speaker 2: medication without changing your lifestyle habits, right.
1:48:39
Speaker 1: But I think this is really common when people set
1:48:41
Speaker 1: goals because they think only about the outcome. They think
1:48:44
Speaker 1: about the clean room, they think about the million dollar
1:48:46
Speaker 1: bank account, they think about the fit six pack ads.
1:48:49
Speaker 1: But what they don't think about is what kind of
1:48:51
Speaker 1: lifestyle do you need to live to get that thing?
1:48:53
Speaker 1: And unless you actually want the whole lifestyle that's associated
1:48:57
Speaker 1: with that result, it doesn't make a whole lot of
1:48:59
Speaker 1: sense to make it your goal, you know, but it
1:49:01
Speaker 1: becomes very easy to get wrapped up in that because
1:49:03
Speaker 1: all we ever see is the outcome rather than the process.
1:49:06
Speaker 2: You also have this interesting idea about the sort of
1:49:11
Speaker 2: peril of good habits and how that can kind of
1:49:15
Speaker 2: create a comfort sown for people.
1:49:17
Speaker 1: So I think that we mentioned this early on the
1:49:20
Speaker 1: habits of the foundation for I think the habits of
1:49:23
Speaker 1: the foundation for mastery, you know, so Lebron or whatever,
1:49:26
Speaker 1: like all those examples of automating as much as you
1:49:28
Speaker 1: can of the process. But there is a downside to
1:49:32
Speaker 1: building good habits, and that is that at first you
1:49:35
Speaker 1: become aware of something that you want to change. Then
1:49:38
Speaker 1: you like deliberately practice it for a while, you put
1:49:40
Speaker 1: effort in, and as you do that, you develop fluency
1:49:44
Speaker 1: and skill and ability, and what was previously difficult becomes
1:49:47
Speaker 1: easy and you habitualize it. But once it's a habit,
1:49:51
Speaker 1: the downside is you stop paying attention as much. When
1:49:54
Speaker 1: you can do something pretty good on autopilot, you stop
1:49:58
Speaker 1: thinking about how to do it better. There's actually an
1:50:00
Speaker 1: interesting study that's been done on surgeons that shows that
1:50:03
Speaker 1: early on in their career they go through residency, they
1:50:06
Speaker 1: increase fluency and skill. They start practicing surgery maybe for
1:50:09
Speaker 1: a few years, and then actually their skills get to
1:50:11
Speaker 1: a peak. And then once they've done it for a
1:50:14
Speaker 1: while and they're pretty good at it, it's not that
1:50:16
Speaker 1: they drop off a cliff, but there's a slight decline
1:50:18
Speaker 1: in performance because they can do so many of the
1:50:20
Speaker 1: steps on autopilot that they stop thinking about did I
1:50:23
Speaker 1: make a little air there, did I make a mistake?
1:50:25
Speaker 1: Did I overlook one step? Yeah?
1:50:27
Speaker 2: There's a rigidity. You become less teachable.
1:50:31
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you become less cognizant of where you might
1:50:34
Speaker 1: be slipping by, you know. And so one of my
1:50:37
Speaker 1: favorite examples of this, I mean, this is one of
1:50:39
Speaker 1: the values of having a coach is that coaches keep
1:50:41
Speaker 1: you aware of your mistakes when you are no longer
1:50:45
Speaker 1: a tool. Gwandhy, who's fantastic writer in his own right
1:50:47
Speaker 1: and as a surgeon, he oh, it's insane. And his schedules, Yeah, no,
1:50:55
Speaker 1: he's fantastic. I also think Complications is his best book,
1:50:58
Speaker 1: and it doesn't get nearly as much press I think
1:51:00
Speaker 1: it should. But anyway, he hired another surgeon who had
1:51:05
Speaker 1: recently retired to review the tape of his surgery and
1:51:08
Speaker 1: tell him, like where he was going wrong and what
1:51:10
Speaker 1: he was you know, what he could improve on. And
1:51:12
Speaker 1: I love that because surgeons never get coaches, right, that's
1:51:15
Speaker 1: not a thing in that industry. But you don't have
1:51:17
Speaker 1: to be an athlete to have a coach. Like, find
1:51:19
Speaker 1: a mentor or someone who recently retired or someone who's
1:51:22
Speaker 1: ten years ahead of where you're at, and have them
1:51:24
Speaker 1: critique what you're up to. And that is a really
1:51:28
Speaker 1: instructive and powerful way to kind of overcome or at
1:51:31
Speaker 1: least become aware of some of your habits that the
1:51:33
Speaker 1: downside of some of your habits that maybe you're overlooking.
1:51:36
Speaker 2: Yeah, or perhaps develop habits around making sure that you're
1:51:42
Speaker 2: always tiptoeing outside your comfort zone, or habits that encourage
1:51:48
Speaker 2: you to always have people around you that will give
1:51:52
Speaker 2: you that critical.
1:51:53
Speaker 1: Feedback and push you, nudge you just a little bit. Yeah, yeah,
1:51:56
Speaker 1: from that comfortable place. I mean. So that maybe is
1:51:59
Speaker 1: what I'm talking about here. As habits are formed, they
1:52:01
Speaker 1: become a comfortable place, and usually growth is on the
1:52:05
Speaker 1: perimeter of that rather than in the middle. And so
1:52:08
Speaker 1: you need some reason or some way to stay on
1:52:10
Speaker 1: the perimeter of your abilities and keep stretching rather than
1:52:14
Speaker 1: staying comfortable.
1:52:15
Speaker 2: Where do most people go wrong with all of this?
1:52:19
Speaker 1: I think probably the biggest thing is making a habit
1:52:21
Speaker 1: too big. So we talked a little bit about the
1:52:23
Speaker 1: two minute rule and that idea of scaling a have
1:52:25
Speaker 1: it down to just the first two minutes, of optimizing
1:52:28
Speaker 1: for the starting line rather than finish line. That's a
1:52:31
Speaker 1: huge one. The second one would be the all or
1:52:34
Speaker 1: nothing mentality. We talked about, like never miss twice and
1:52:37
Speaker 1: to make sure that I, you know, like get back
1:52:39
Speaker 1: on track as quickly as possible, rather than acting like, well,
1:52:42
Speaker 1: if I can't run three days a week, then why
1:52:43
Speaker 1: bother at all? You know, like doing it once is fine.
1:52:47
Speaker 1: So that's another huge issue. And then in the long run,
1:52:51
Speaker 1: the two things that I think are most crucial are identity.
1:52:55
Speaker 1: Adopting that type of identity and casting votes for the
1:52:59
Speaker 1: person you want to become, even if it's in a
1:53:00
Speaker 1: really small way, so you start to see yourself and
1:53:02
Speaker 1: build up evidence of being that person. And then the
1:53:05
Speaker 1: second one is social environment. You know, like, in the
1:53:08
Speaker 1: long run, it's really hard to stick to a habit
1:53:10
Speaker 1: if it goes against the grain of the people that
1:53:12
Speaker 1: are around you, whereas if you get praised and respected
1:53:15
Speaker 1: for it, people stick to things even if they don't
1:53:18
Speaker 1: have a factual basis for them, even if they don't
1:53:20
Speaker 1: have a good reason, because the social component and the
1:53:22
Speaker 1: belonging is so strong.
1:53:24
Speaker 2: Yeah, the identity one is huge, you know. I think
1:53:29
Speaker 2: really a huge problem is that people are not adequately
1:53:38
Speaker 2: in touch enough with themselves and their impulses, who they
1:53:43
Speaker 2: are and where they want to be, Like, they're not
1:53:45
Speaker 2: connected to their interior landscape to the extent that their
1:53:52
Speaker 2: choice of identity or goal is necessarily reliable because most
1:53:58
Speaker 2: people are not in aged in that internal process of
1:54:03
Speaker 2: trying to really understand what makes them tick and who
1:54:06
Speaker 2: they want to be. And what I see is a
1:54:08
Speaker 2: lot of people chasing the wrong thing, and they may
1:54:12
Speaker 2: be very good at executing on that goal or that
1:54:15
Speaker 2: habit that takes them there, only to later discover that
1:54:19
Speaker 2: that whole pursuit was, you know, really not what they
1:54:22
Speaker 2: should have been doing in the first place.
1:54:26
Speaker 1: Or he's like, I hope everybody gets everything they ever
1:54:28
Speaker 1: wanted and realizes that wasn't what they actually needed.
1:54:30
Speaker 2: In the podcast, or I can't remember who it was
1:54:33
Speaker 2: that said this, like, you know, you spend your whole
1:54:35
Speaker 2: life climbing this ladder only to realize it's leaning against
1:54:37
Speaker 2: the wrong wall right, which becomes a much broader discussion
1:54:42
Speaker 2: about you know, psychology, I suppose in general. But all right,
1:54:46
Speaker 2: we gotta we gotta start to close this thing down.
1:54:49
Speaker 2: But why don't we? Uh if you could leave us
1:54:54
Speaker 2: with a couple things that people can take away to perhaps,
1:54:59
Speaker 2: you know, kind of tweak how they look at and
1:55:01
Speaker 2: think about the habits that they're trying to change in
1:55:05
Speaker 2: their own lives, and some simple steps to get them
1:55:08
Speaker 2: started in making better decisions.
1:55:13
Speaker 1: Sure, so I'll give you one mindset shift and one
1:55:16
Speaker 1: practical application. So the mindset shift, and this kind of
1:55:20
Speaker 1: lies beneath the entire conversation we had today, is to
1:55:24
Speaker 1: just try to find a way to get one percent
1:55:25
Speaker 1: better each day. It doesn't need to be something radical,
1:55:28
Speaker 1: it doesn't need to be something huge. But habits are
1:55:32
Speaker 1: easy to overlook, both good and bad, on any given day,
1:55:36
Speaker 1: because they don't seem like very much. The difference between
1:55:40
Speaker 1: studying Spanish for an hour tonight and not studying at
1:55:43
Speaker 1: all seems like nothing, because it's like, well, I still
1:55:45
Speaker 1: didn't learn the language, and the difference between eating a
1:55:48
Speaker 1: salad versus eating a burger and fries seems like nothing
1:55:51
Speaker 1: because your body looks the same in the mirror and
1:55:53
Speaker 1: those scale is the same at the end of the night.
1:55:55
Speaker 1: It's only once your habits have compounded over two or
1:55:58
Speaker 1: five or ten years that the impact of those one
1:56:01
Speaker 1: percent choices one percent better or one percent worse becomes
1:56:04
Speaker 1: fully apparent. And if you can understand that concept and
1:56:08
Speaker 1: internalize it, then you can start to see the importance
1:56:10
Speaker 1: in your daily actions and in your daily habits and
1:56:13
Speaker 1: why those are so critical. So that's the first thing,
1:56:16
Speaker 1: is just try to find a way to get one
1:56:18
Speaker 1: percent better. And the second thing just a practical application.
1:56:23
Speaker 1: I would encourage you to try to apply the two
1:56:25
Speaker 1: minute rule. Think about whatever habit it is that you're
1:56:28
Speaker 1: trying to build and scale it down to just the
1:56:30
Speaker 1: first two minutes of the behavior. What is the thing
1:56:32
Speaker 1: that you can do that can initiate it. Don't think
1:56:34
Speaker 1: about it as like the overall habit. Think about it
1:56:37
Speaker 1: like a gateway habit or an entrance ramp to a highway.
1:56:40
Speaker 1: How can you automate the beginning of the behavior. And
1:56:44
Speaker 1: this is This is maybe an important distinction about habits.
1:56:48
Speaker 1: A lot of the time we talk about habits as
1:56:50
Speaker 1: we use the phrase habit for things that aren't actually habits,
1:56:53
Speaker 1: Like we'll say something like I want to build the
1:56:55
Speaker 1: habit of writing every day. Technically, we define this at
1:56:58
Speaker 1: the very beginning of this episode. A habit is a
1:57:01
Speaker 1: behavior that can be performed more or less automatically. It's
1:57:03
Speaker 1: on autopilot. Writing is about the most effortful, concentrative thing
1:57:08
Speaker 1: that you can do right, Like you're gonna be thinking carefully,
1:57:10
Speaker 1: You're not gonna be on autopilot.
1:57:12
Speaker 2: So the habit part of that would be I sit
1:57:15
Speaker 2: in a chair at a desk with a pad of
1:57:17
Speaker 2: paper in front of me or a laptop.
1:57:19
Speaker 1: The habit is the first two minutes, right, How can
1:57:21
Speaker 1: you automate the ritual of getting started and then let
1:57:25
Speaker 1: the consequence and the effortful, concentrating work follow naturally. The
1:57:30
Speaker 1: same way with the example I gave about my reader,
1:57:33
Speaker 1: the habit was showing up at the gym, you know,
1:57:35
Speaker 1: or for running a lot of people a lot of
1:57:38
Speaker 1: people have heard stuff like this before, like, hey, take
1:57:40
Speaker 1: small steps, but even when you know you should start small,
1:57:43
Speaker 1: it's still really easy to start too big. People are like,
1:57:45
Speaker 1: all right, I want to build the habit of running.
1:57:48
Speaker 1: So I guess I know I should start small, so
1:57:50
Speaker 1: only run for fifteen minutes. But even that's like way
1:57:52
Speaker 1: bigger than what I'm talking about. Scale it down just
1:57:54
Speaker 1: the first two minutes. Automate the ritual of getting started,
1:57:58
Speaker 1: putting on your running shoes, stepping out the door, aren't
1:58:00
Speaker 1: locking the door. And if you can automate that and
1:58:03
Speaker 1: make that a habit, and you do a day in
1:58:04
Speaker 1: and day out, and you're the type of person who
1:58:05
Speaker 1: always gets their running shoes on, steps off the door,
1:58:08
Speaker 1: there are gonna be a lot of days where you go, yeah,
1:58:09
Speaker 1: that's great advice. It's great advice. All right, James Clear,
1:58:14
Speaker 1: I think we did it. This is awesome, man, Thanks
1:58:16
Speaker 1: ch I really appreciate it. Feel good, Yeah, I feel great.
1:58:18
Speaker 1: Anything else you want to say?
1:58:19
Speaker 2: Do we say it all?
1:58:20
Speaker 1: We could keep going. We could. There's a there's a
1:58:24
Speaker 1: lot in the book that we didn't get to cover,
1:58:25
Speaker 1: which might seem incredible given how much we covered here,
1:58:27
Speaker 1: But the book is very thorough. Oh thank you. Yeah,
1:58:30
Speaker 1: I'm glad you enjoyed it. I there's there are some
1:58:32
Speaker 1: sections that I find really interesting, Like there I have
1:58:35
Speaker 1: a section on genes and habits, and like choosing.
1:58:38
Speaker 2: Yeah, person to talk about like genetic factors.
1:58:40
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean we can talk about let's do it,
1:58:42
Speaker 1: all right.
1:58:42
Speaker 2: There's a there's like a running joke out on the
1:58:44
Speaker 2: internet that I always say, like, all right, we're wrapping
1:58:46
Speaker 2: this up, and then I go two hours.
1:58:49
Speaker 1: Later, all right. So here's my thought on genes. In
1:58:54
Speaker 1: many cases, the genes that are well. We often don't
1:58:58
Speaker 1: like to talk about genes and biology because it seems
1:59:00
Speaker 1: like a fixed characteristic, right, saying that, like, oh, your genetics,
1:59:04
Speaker 1: it's seen. Nobody likes to think like, oh, what's out
1:59:06
Speaker 1: of my control? Why bother? But the truth is the
1:59:09
Speaker 1: usefulness or the applicability of your genes is highly dependent
1:59:14
Speaker 1: on context. So being seven feet tall is an incredible
1:59:18
Speaker 1: advantage if you're trying to play basketball, and it's an
1:59:21
Speaker 1: incredible disadvantage if you're trying to be a gymnast. And
1:59:25
Speaker 1: just as that is very obvious with physical traits, it's
1:59:28
Speaker 1: becoming increasingly true as we develop more understanding of the
1:59:31
Speaker 1: link between genes and psychological traits or what we would
1:59:34
Speaker 1: call your personality. And so for certain personalities, certain habits,
1:59:39
Speaker 1: or certain environments might be predisposed to being really successful,
1:59:44
Speaker 1: enjoyable or not. I think there's a lot to improve
1:59:50
Speaker 1: in this area. I think there's like a lot for
1:59:51
Speaker 1: us still to learn. But so in many ways we
1:59:54
Speaker 1: might just be in the infancy of understanding this. But
1:59:57
Speaker 1: one of the best measures, or most robust measures of
2:00:00
Speaker 1: personality is the Big Five. In this kind of like
2:00:02
Speaker 1: mapping personality traits onto five different spectrums. The most common
2:00:06
Speaker 1: one that people know is introversion and extroversion, but there
2:00:10
Speaker 1: are other ones as well, agreeableness, conscientiousness, and so on.
2:00:13
Speaker 1: And each of these five traits has been linked to
2:00:18
Speaker 1: some kind of genetic underpinning, some type of DNA, and
2:00:22
Speaker 1: so one of my favorite studies on this, researchers took
2:00:25
Speaker 1: babies that were in the nursery and they played a
2:00:29
Speaker 1: harsh noise on one side of the nursery, and some of
2:00:31
Speaker 1: the babies turned toward the noise, and some of them
2:00:33
Speaker 1: turned away. And as they track those children as they
2:00:36
Speaker 1: grew up throughout life, they found the ones that turned
2:00:38
Speaker 1: toward the noise were more likely to grow up to
2:00:40
Speaker 1: be extroverts, and the ones that turned away were more
2:00:42
Speaker 1: likely to grow up to be introvertsed.
2:00:43
Speaker 2: Yeah, the extroverts are in the mash pit. Yeah, the
2:00:46
Speaker 2: introverts are at home watching Netflix.
2:00:48
Speaker 1: So again I think there's still a lot to learn,
2:00:50
Speaker 1: but there's definitely something going on here. People, for example,
2:00:53
Speaker 1: who have higher levels of agreeableness tend to have higher
2:00:56
Speaker 1: natural levels of oxytocin as well. So you can imagine
2:01:00
Speaker 1: how someone who is high in agreeableness might be more
2:01:03
Speaker 1: likely or it might be easier for them to build
2:01:05
Speaker 1: a habit of writing thank you notes, or of organizing
2:01:08
Speaker 1: social events where people can be warm and hang out
2:01:11
Speaker 1: and kind and consider it and so on. They're that
2:01:13
Speaker 1: kind of personality and so they're may be predisposed to
2:01:16
Speaker 1: that kind of habit. Where gets interesting is if you
2:01:19
Speaker 1: can understand yourself at a more I guess i'll even
2:01:23
Speaker 1: call a genetic level, then maybe you can start to
2:01:26
Speaker 1: design habits that fit you better, or design an environment
2:01:29
Speaker 1: that fits you better. So one of the examples I
2:01:31
Speaker 1: gave in the book, and again I'm just kind, I'm
2:01:33
Speaker 1: still like toying with some of these ideas is for
2:01:37
Speaker 1: people who are low in conscientiousness, which is one of
2:01:39
Speaker 1: those five traits that means that they're less likely to
2:01:42
Speaker 1: be orderly or less likely to be organized. So if
2:01:46
Speaker 1: someone is like that, if they're predisposed to be that
2:01:48
Speaker 1: kind of person, it might really help them to be
2:01:51
Speaker 1: in an environment, to have an environment designed where things
2:01:54
Speaker 1: are already orderly or primed or set up, because they're
2:01:57
Speaker 1: going to be less likely to be the type of
2:01:58
Speaker 1: person that would just to do it or to make
2:02:01
Speaker 1: a to do list to do it and so on.
2:02:03
Speaker 1: And so maybe if you knew, oh, I'm low and conscientiousness,
2:02:07
Speaker 1: you should shift more of your energy and attention to
2:02:09
Speaker 1: environment design.
2:02:10
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, that's that's super interesting. I mean, in the
2:02:13
Speaker 2: book you talk about you know Michael Phelps, who has
2:02:18
Speaker 2: a physique that's perfectly suited to him swimming very fast.
2:02:21
Speaker 2: And then you have this hic, Yeah, a long distance
2:02:25
Speaker 2: runner who they have the same en scene, but you
2:02:28
Speaker 2: know the proportionality of their bodies are completely different, and
2:02:31
Speaker 2: he's well suited in a long distance running. They could
2:02:32
Speaker 2: not swap places. And the point being that from afar,
2:02:38
Speaker 2: the casual observer will say, well, of course he's good
2:02:40
Speaker 2: at swimming, like, look at his body. I can't do that.
2:02:43
Speaker 2: But the greater point that you're trying to make is
2:02:45
Speaker 2: if we can develop self awareness around you know, what
2:02:49
Speaker 2: suits us best in our predispositions, and gravitate towards those
2:02:54
Speaker 2: environments and those opportunities, and we're putting ourselves in a
2:02:57
Speaker 2: position where the expression of our genetic makeup can advance
2:03:03
Speaker 2: us and fuel us, and you know, put us in
2:03:05
Speaker 2: the position that is best for us.
2:03:09
Speaker 1: Right. I don't know if this is going to end
2:03:10
Speaker 1: up being possible, but it's possible that there may be
2:03:14
Speaker 1: a few key traits, like if for measuring intelligence is
2:03:19
Speaker 1: a hot topic and difficult to do because there are
2:03:21
Speaker 1: many different types of intelligence. But if, for example, being
2:03:25
Speaker 1: having winning the genetic lottery and intelligence happens to be
2:03:28
Speaker 1: like a cheat code and it helps you succeed in
2:03:30
Speaker 1: any area of life, then maybe maybe this is what
2:03:33
Speaker 1: I'm about to say isn't as accessible, But what I
2:03:37
Speaker 1: think could be possible and is a really inspiring notion
2:03:40
Speaker 1: to me, is if we could appropriately map your personality
2:03:45
Speaker 1: and genes, then maybe we could better suit people to
2:03:49
Speaker 1: environments where they could be excellent. And that would be
2:03:51
Speaker 1: a wonderful thing for everyone to be able to feel
2:03:53
Speaker 1: and experience what it's like to be excellent at something.
2:03:56
Speaker 1: What it's like to be world class or to succeed,
2:03:58
Speaker 1: And in many ways it's just a problem. You know,
2:04:01
Speaker 1: like what if Michael Phelps grew up in a family
2:04:03
Speaker 1: that was all runners and it never swam and he never.
2:04:05
Speaker 2: Got exposed to that. Well, there probably is a guy,
2:04:08
Speaker 2: you know, yeah, walking around right now who has a
2:04:10
Speaker 2: physique that's even better suited for the two hundred butterfly
2:04:13
Speaker 2: and has never been in a swimming pool, right, And
2:04:15
Speaker 2: it's like, we don't know because we're ping pong balls,
2:04:18
Speaker 2: bouncing around and we kind of, you know, find our
2:04:21
Speaker 2: own water level. Eventually, some of us do. But it
2:04:25
Speaker 2: leaves you wondering, well, how many people aren't finding that
2:04:28
Speaker 2: you know, perfect outlet where the world you know, you
2:04:31
Speaker 2: talk about luck, You've written about like luck, and you know,
2:04:34
Speaker 2: you use Bill Gates as an example, like there's a
2:04:37
Speaker 2: lot of luck involved. He was born in America and
2:04:39
Speaker 2: he was in this city. You know, the timing was right,
2:04:41
Speaker 2: everything was perfect for him to be the person that
2:04:44
Speaker 2: he ultimately becomes. About how many people out there have
2:04:47
Speaker 2: that potential where the world doesn't converge in a way
2:04:50
Speaker 2: that allows him to express whatever gift is innate within them.
2:04:55
Speaker 1: And my hope is that there are enough niches throughout
2:04:58
Speaker 1: the world that there are enough ways for people to
2:05:01
Speaker 1: fit in and find their thing where they can be excellent,
2:05:04
Speaker 1: where they're like perfectly suited for that. And it's just
2:05:06
Speaker 1: this matching problem that we don't right now. It really
2:05:09
Speaker 1: is like ping pong balls. It's just luck. I mean,
2:05:11
Speaker 1: it's luck that Michael Phelps grew up in the right environment,
2:05:15
Speaker 1: the right family, the right situation for that. And that
2:05:18
Speaker 1: doesn't discount any of the hard work that he did,
2:05:20
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, he worked his butt off, but
2:05:22
Speaker 1: he was in the he happened to also have been
2:05:25
Speaker 1: matched with the right thing at the beginning.
2:05:27
Speaker 2: Including like the perfect amount of psychological trauma to fuel
2:05:32
Speaker 2: the competitive nature within him. Like, it's all of it, right,
2:05:36
Speaker 2: And I think we're headed towards a future where AI
2:05:41
Speaker 2: and genetic testing are going to be able to answer
2:05:44
Speaker 2: some of these questions for people, and that's fraught with
2:05:47
Speaker 2: all kinds of other perils, but there is.
2:05:49
Speaker 1: Something interesting about that as well.
2:05:52
Speaker 2: In the meantime, you kind of leave people with this question,
2:05:54
Speaker 2: which is what are you well suited to suffer for?
2:05:59
Speaker 1: Right?
2:06:00
Speaker 2: Something like that paraphrasing I think, which is a way
2:06:02
Speaker 2: of kind of prompting that self inquiry A lot of people.
2:06:06
Speaker 1: Try to figure out like yes, So in that chapter,
2:06:08
Speaker 1: after a set of questions that you can go through
2:06:10
Speaker 1: to try to figure it out for yourself, what are
2:06:12
Speaker 1: you most appropriately matched for? What environment would suit you?
2:06:16
Speaker 1: And one of the key questions I think is where's
2:06:19
Speaker 1: an area where you can handle the pain of the
2:06:21
Speaker 1: work better than the people around you? The area where
2:06:24
Speaker 1: you are more well equipped to suffer is the work
2:06:26
Speaker 1: that you were made to do. Which is an interesting
2:06:28
Speaker 1: way to think about it. Right, Like most people think about, oh, well,
2:06:30
Speaker 1: where is it just easy? Where do I succeed? But
2:06:33
Speaker 1: every area requires hard work and effort to achieve some
2:06:36
Speaker 1: level of success. So the question is not where is
2:06:39
Speaker 1: it easy? The question is where can I handle the pain?
2:06:42
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a different lens through which to look at it,
2:06:45
Speaker 2: but I think that that I think that's I think
2:06:47
Speaker 2: that's right.
2:06:49
Speaker 1: You know, for some people, for whatever reason, people who
2:06:54
Speaker 1: grow up and you know, become great writers, they writing
2:06:57
Speaker 1: is suffering, but they can handle it. For some reason,
2:07:00
Speaker 1: Navy seals like it's not easy to be one, but
2:07:03
Speaker 1: the guys who can make it somehow they can handle
2:07:05
Speaker 1: the suffering of it.
2:07:06
Speaker 2: Yeah, they're well suited and prepared and willing to undergo
2:07:12
Speaker 2: that for some reason.
2:07:13
Speaker 1: And I think I use that line something similar to
2:07:15
Speaker 1: that at the end of that chapter, which is at
2:07:17
Speaker 1: the peak of any field, what you're going to find
2:07:20
Speaker 1: are people who are both well suited and well trained.
2:07:23
Speaker 1: It's not just one or the other. They have the
2:07:25
Speaker 1: environment matching, and they have the hard work and the
2:07:28
Speaker 1: effort and the perseverance.
2:07:29
Speaker 2: Right, habits are the compound interest of self improvement.
2:07:34
Speaker 1: I love it. That's one of my favorite lines in
2:07:35
Speaker 1: the book. I think I think it encapsulates the core idea,
2:07:38
Speaker 1: right that, like, if you're willing to build those small
2:07:41
Speaker 1: behaviors and layer one percent improvements on top of each other,
2:07:45
Speaker 1: they will compound and multiply the same way that money
2:07:47
Speaker 1: multiplies through compound interests. The effects of your habits multiplies
2:07:51
Speaker 1: you repeat them over time, and that can be true
2:07:53
Speaker 1: for you or against you. And that's why it's crucial
2:07:56
Speaker 1: to understand how habits work so that you can, you know,
2:07:59
Speaker 1: make sure that they're multiplying in your favorite rether than
2:08:02
Speaker 1: to your detriment.
2:08:03
Speaker 2: You heard it here, people, right, from the source. I
2:08:07
Speaker 2: love it, man, thank you so much. I really appreciate
2:08:10
Speaker 2: your wisdom. The book is fantastic. I think it's going
2:08:13
Speaker 2: to help a lot of people, So I'm excited for you.
2:08:16
Speaker 2: Are you going out on a big book tour? Are
2:08:17
Speaker 2: you going to be around where people can come and
2:08:20
Speaker 2: hear you talk and stuff like that.
2:08:21
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you. I'm so grateful and pleased to hear
2:08:26
Speaker 1: that you enjoyed it. So thanks for that, And we
2:08:29
Speaker 1: probably will do a book tour at some point. I'll
2:08:32
Speaker 1: definitely be in New York for the launch on October sixteenth.
2:08:35
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, people can find the book and
2:08:38
Speaker 1: learn more about it at Atomic Habits dot com.
2:08:40
Speaker 2: Right, and Jamescleaar dot com at James Clare pretty much
2:08:44
Speaker 2: everywhere on the internet.
2:08:45
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, pretty much. Just James Cleaar dot com is
2:08:47
Speaker 1: the place to go to check out some of my articles.
2:08:49
Speaker 1: So I've got it organized by category, so if you
2:08:50
Speaker 1: want to just bounce around, so who would interest you?
2:08:52
Speaker 1: And then there are links to social media and all
2:08:54
Speaker 1: that other stuff.
2:08:55
Speaker 2: And you have this newsletter with like eight zillion people
2:08:58
Speaker 2: who subscribe and read your stuff.
2:09:00
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's James Clare dot com Slash newsletter. But but yeah,
2:09:03
Speaker 1: you can just James Clare dot com and Tomcabs dot com.
2:09:05
Speaker 1: That'll that'll have it all for you. Cool. Good talking
2:09:08
Speaker 1: to you man, great thanks Rich Peace, M