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Inclusivity and Diversity in Financial Planning · Financial Planner Life Podcast

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: Hey everybody, Sam OK from the financial planner life.
• 0:02
  SPEAKER_01: And just to let you know, this week we have a feature episode where we talk about inclusivity and diversity within the financial planning profession.
• 0:09
  SPEAKER_01: It's never had the best reputation.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: When you think of a financial planner, it tends to be a middle-aged man, it's two and white.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_01: So the guests we've got on the podcast in this compilation talk about their personal experiences of diversity and inclusivity within the financial planning profession and what can be done.
• 0:24
  SPEAKER_01: So I hope you enjoyed the episode.
• 0:34
  SPEAKER_04: Even if you had a 20-year-old guy in the office, he then took shared paternity leave with his partner.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_04: What's the difference?
• 0:42
  SPEAKER_04: Like it is no difference, but in my opinion, that should be the norm.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_04: Like now it's not, but I feel like in years to come it probably will be because parenting is becoming a lot more 50-50 than it ever has been.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_04: So I think the same thing.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_04: Why should people be hired or not hired?
• 0:58
  SPEAKER_04: Because there's a potential of them having time away from the business for a short period of time.
• 1:02
  SPEAKER_04: If you're respectful enough to that employee, know that they're good enough at their job and kind of tailor your needs to their needs, it tends to work better in the end.
• 1:11
  SPEAKER_04: So I think it's definitely something that needs to be worked on.
• 1:15
  SPEAKER_04: And like you say, I've heard people say, Well, should we take her on?
• 1:19
  SPEAKER_04: Because or we've got a guy that we could take on.
• 1:21
  SPEAKER_04: So maybe that's better than that.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_04: And it's just it's crazy because that woman could have been the best employee they ever had.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_04: But just because she's got kids or she might have kids, she's not got the job because of that reason.
• 1:32
  SPEAKER_04: It's just ridiculous.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and ultimately, you know, it's discrimination when you know it's not legal to do it, but it's it's unnerving, as I said, how much these conversations go on.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_05: And ultimately, if you're in a position where you've got two individuals and you to in decide to employ the male over the female because of this one reason, you are promoting that, you are promoting that gender inequality within the industry.
• 1:56
  SPEAKER_05: And I think businesses need to realize that.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_05: And you know, and also, as I said, with shared, as you've mentioned, with shared parental leave soon, you know, you could make this decision on something completely objective as well, because you don't know whether this is going to happen.
• 2:10
  SPEAKER_05: And ultimately, you know, the you you don't know that gentleman might have a pregnant partner throughout all that period.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_05: So you're almost getting yourself and shot yourself in the foot as well at times because you don't actually know what's going on behind closed doors.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_05: And could you expand a little bit about sort of your experiences with tattoos and the and appearance within the industry?
• 2:32
  SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_02: So um, like I said, I've I've been in the industry like forever since I was like 18, it feels like forever.
• 2:40
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and whenever I would get tattoos, they would always be hidden.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_02: Um, like I've weirdly, I've got my feet done, and I always used to buy shoes that like had a bit of material over the top hide them.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_02: Um, and from that young age, it was said to me, you know, oh, you have to look presentable.
• 2:59
  SPEAKER_02: Completely agree with that.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_02: You know, their their clients at the first RFA I worked for were of the older generation.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_02: They perhaps didn't like it and they had these opinions that, you know, people that had tattoos with thugs and in this, you know, this kind of um thought process.
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_02: So I always had them where I could hide them.
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um and actually, I don't think it was until I got to the verb group that I was genuinely be able to go, okay, I'm me, and I can just relax and I can wear short sleeved tops and um I can have open open tooth sandals and that.
• 3:35
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I the tattoos that I've got that I never would have had before are are my arms.
• 3:41
  SPEAKER_02: Um, because in the summer I could never kind of hide that.
• 3:45
  SPEAKER_02: It is just too much to try and keep everything hidden.
• 3:47
  SPEAKER_05: With that, 30 degrees outside you with a big jumper on, like, oh my god, I'm fine, really not on.
• 3:55
  SPEAKER_02: Um so I went ahead and I did it.
• 3:57
  SPEAKER_02: And it was amazing to come into the office and for um our CEO Cathy, um RCOO Joe, for them to both be like, oh, amazing, like that's really cool.
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_02: And to not feel like I can't, I'm more in front of people than I ever was in any other job.
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_02: And yet I've got more tattoos on show than I ever did before.
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_02: Um it's difficult because I do I do understand where businesses are coming from.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_02: And if you deal with clients, yes, you need to look professional.
• 4:27
  SPEAKER_02: But I am of the opinion that tattoos don't necessarily look unprofessional.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_05: No, no, I understand.
• 4:33
  SPEAKER_05: And you I think you mentioned something, and I've also teased this out from one of your articles, but you said then like this impression that you know having tattoos and everything makes you a thug.
• 4:42
  SPEAKER_05: I know, well, I don't know, but I'm sure there's lots of people out there that are thugs that have zero tattoos.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_05: And some people that I know that are covered in tattoos are some of the sweetest, nicest people ever.
• 4:54
  SPEAKER_05: And there's, I think there is a difference between presentable and professional.
• 4:58
  SPEAKER_05: If I walk into work in my pajamas and I haven't brushed my hair, like that is not presentable nor professional.
• 5:07
  SPEAKER_05: But if I walk in and I've, you know, in a nice dress, but you can see tattoos, that's still presentable and professional.
• 5:16
  SPEAKER_05: It's a it's a very difficult caveat.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_05: And I've mentioned this to you before that it's something that I really resonate with because recruitment, not so much now.
• 5:24
  SPEAKER_05: I think COVID has definitely changed perceptions with like dress code and things like that.
• 5:28
  SPEAKER_05: But definitely when I was interviewing for this role, it was still, you know, nine to five office business wear, you know, smart shoes, smart dresses.
• 5:37
  SPEAKER_05: Um and then I had a nose ring.
• 5:39
  SPEAKER_05: And I remember telling my recruiter who helped me with this job, like, do I take my nose ring out?
• 5:44
  SPEAKER_05: And he was like, I think it's for the best.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_05: So I did.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_05: And for my second stages, funnily enough, I forgot.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_05: So I wore it in all the time and I was really glad because I was like, no one's gonna get a surprise.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_05: But even that attitude of like, oh, I'm gonna take it out because people might, you know, receive me better, or I'm more likely to get the job because I haven't got a nose ring in, is absolutely ridiculous when you think about it.
• 6:09
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah, and it is, you do sit there now and go, what?
• 6:12
  SPEAKER_02: That's mad.
• 6:13
  SPEAKER_02: But it was only a few years ago that I was feeling like this.
• 6:16
  SPEAKER_02: And I do understand there are different parts of the industry, and you know, there are certain things that are okay and aren't okay.
• 6:25
  SPEAKER_02: And you know, I'm not gonna get everyone moaning at me for that.
• 6:28
  SPEAKER_02: I do get it, but I also don't think that having ink on your skin or a nose ring of bright hair means that you can't do your job or you're less capable or you're less approachable.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_02: Um, I had someone on an article comment that I was reckless, and I'm like, honestly, if you knew me, I'm the least reckless person you have ever met in your life.
• 6:48
  SPEAKER_05: But we've just spoken about previously also about like the industry and how we need to take more of a responsibility to allow more people to access financial advice and stuff like this.
• 6:58
  SPEAKER_05: And if we remain with the stereotype of male, I always say this, and I'm not brandishing all financial advisors this and no one shouts at me.
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_05: But if we continue with this um stereotype of male pales and stale, and we don't include people that have bright hair or a nose ring or a lip ring or you know tattoos that are visible, we are feeding into this dialogue of financial planning is almost something like elitist, and that you have to be part of this club to be part of it.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_05: While if we're trying to promote closing the advice gap, we have to have a different attitude and view of all of this.
• 7:33
  SPEAKER_01: I think as well, one of the things you have is that you have experience, and the thing that you have is the experience to be able to talk to clients as well, uh if they're going through that situation as a parent, because not only is your your son was transitioning to um your daughter, now your daughter, but you were transitioning as well.
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: You know, you're you you you as a mother were being challenged in your thinking, right?
• 8:02
  SPEAKER_01: And what you thought was right and what you thought what you thought was or something isn't, but at the same time an utter sense of relief because hopefully on the pathway to better self-worth and feeling better about themselves, and they're no longer suicidal thinking.
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_01: So there's such a a a muddle of emotions that can happen, and you've gone through it, and that is powerful to share.
• 8:29
  SPEAKER_01: And I think I applaud you, and I think you should take that because it fits into things like vulnerable clients and it fits into an there's a lot of people out there that are thinking about it that just need their perspective slightly changed, whether they're going through it themselves or whether they're a parent of experiencing that, you've got a lot to give and a lot to give back on.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm I'm you know, I applaud you and well done for sharing that.
• 8:54
  SPEAKER_06: I I think there's that element of if you if you share a little bit about yourself with your clients, you can emphasize better.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_06: We've all been through something like I'm saying marriage, I've been a single parent.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_06: I've probably had more than most, if I'm honest, I share.
• 9:08
  SPEAKER_06: But I think if you give that little bit of yourself, you know, I will counteract that by that meeting is not about you.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_06: You don't talk more than your client, you listen more than your client.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_06: But I think if you can use an example, whether it's about you or a client confidentially, you're not naming anyone or not, make sure they don't know each other.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_06: But you can say, look, I've had a client that's experienced this or I know somebody's experienced that.
• 9:31
  SPEAKER_06: That person just doesn't feel alone anymore, do they?
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_06: They feel like they've got somebody there.
• 9:37
  SPEAKER_06: So when this news, when I finally figured out, and I, you know, I've been to Hellenback trying to find a reason.
• 9:44
  SPEAKER_06: I have been to Helen Back.
• 9:46
  SPEAKER_06: And when I got the reason, I did get in touch with a support charity, it wasn't even a charity, it was a support group.
• 9:52
  SPEAKER_06: And there was one woman there phoned me, she gave about two hours of her time.
• 9:57
  SPEAKER_06: And starting that conversation, I felt so much better, felt so much better.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_06: Her daughter became her son, and I thought, I'm not alone, I am in the minority, this isn't happening to anyone I know.
• 10:09
  SPEAKER_06: But to be fair, the things that happened to me in my life have not happened to anyone I know of before.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_06: But someone else has actually just doesn't even know me, won't even tell me her name because it is such a polarizing area that it's felt a lot of hey, you know, there's a lot of people are really hatred here.
• 10:29
  SPEAKER_06: This is possibly what I feel gay people maybe went through before.
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_06: You know, it's there's not a great acceptance out there.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_06: So it is kind of is this person genuine when they're phone and looking for help?
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_06: You know, it is that sort of cloak and dagger stuff which opened my eyes a bit because I thought I'd very much believe in everyone who has their own business, they go through it.
• 10:49
  SPEAKER_06: As long as they're a good person and they treat you well, my door's open for you.
• 10:55
  SPEAKER_06: It doesn't matter what you are, but I think that kind of opened my eyes to this is not what it's like here.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_06: But that that stranger, um, whose name I don't know gave me two hours of her time and made me feel so much better.
• 11:08
  SPEAKER_06: So if I could do that for someone else, so someone could listen, and if I can navigate what this journey is, and somebody needs to find this out quicker than it's taken me to do, because as I say to Daisy, as it is Daisy now, so that that's probably the hardest bit actually getting the name right in the pronouns, and they really are offended when you don't, so it's even learning that they're offended when you don't hit to back, but I would say, I'm trying, you know, you've been Michael for 20 years, I'm trying here.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_06: Um, and I think they have to learn to accept that people that want to try are worth gold, people who maybe get it wrong but aren't doing it intentionally are worth gold.
• 11:48
  SPEAKER_06: Hang on to them.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_06: My dad yesterday, when we were in the hospital for the burn that he got, he said he doesn't realize because he still says he, and then he goes she and then he gets all confused, but he isn't only 79.
• 12:01
  SPEAKER_06: I'm trying.
• 12:02
  SPEAKER_06: Can you please make them aware I'm trying?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_06: And that kind of sums it up to me.
• 12:07
  SPEAKER_06: If you want to try, you'll get there.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_06: You know, you might not get it right all the time, but and I think in this industry with financial services, we can try to help.
• 12:15
  SPEAKER_06: And if it's something that interests you, offer that hand of friendship, try and navigate the financial advice part of it because I definitely think you'll get referrals.
• 12:24
  SPEAKER_06: Um, but do it because it's the right thing to do.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_06: Um, but I've always said if Daisy doesn't have a nipple, she'd be skippered, and and because I I will find an answer to anything that's put in front of me because it's just the kind of temperament and character that I am.
• 12:39
  SPEAKER_00: I also wanted to pick up on your ADHD comment, if that's all right.
• 12:42
  SPEAKER_03: Oh, yeah, of course.
• 12:43
  SPEAKER_03: I know I mentioned so what was it, the conversation I had about it?
• 12:47
  SPEAKER_03: It was basically saying that one um sort of behavior that people with ADHD can have is sort of getting that like dopamine hit when they buy something.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_03: So you get people who will just like have big shopping sprees, have all this beautiful stuff, and then at the end of it, they've just bought loads of stuff and they've got no money, and then they get behind on their bills.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_03: And it will happen a lot where they'll have sort of just like big, sporadic, like spontaneous moments of spending, and then it's a bit erratic because it's it's linked with that ADHD functioning and how that can really impact someone's finances, and it's not necessarily something that's brought to the table very often, I don't think, when talking about money.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_03: Um, so yeah, I I mean what did it jog in your mind when I was brought that up?
• 13:33
  SPEAKER_00: So, firstly, as we're talking now, I am self-diagnosed, but I'm I'm almost certain 99.9% certain I demonstrate almost all, if not all, of the traits of ADHD.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_00: So this is something really close to my heart.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Um, I think going back to people's relationship with money, the reason why someone with ADHD would have those sort of impulses and that kind of cycle is it is very much linked to um linked to your own thought process.
• 14:06
  SPEAKER_00: So they talk about hyper focus with ADHD.
• 14:10
  SPEAKER_00: So that's why I've got no problem in researching a um computer, um what's it called, a camera for three hours.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: But that's what's really good about um I can research a fund for three or four hours, no problem.
• 14:25
  SPEAKER_00: So that actually is sort of a superpower for me.
• 14:28
  SPEAKER_00: Um but yeah, in terms of in terms of that, what what happens if if you imagine you're really excited about a holiday, for example, um, but then you go into it a bit deeper and you think, well, okay, so how am I gonna get there?
• 14:42
  SPEAKER_00: When when I get there, what kind of room am I gonna be in?
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: What are the activities I'm gonna um be part of?
• 14:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then you you think about every single detail of that holiday, that's kind of like hyper focus mode with ADHD.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_00: And I think in terms of the dopamine, yeah, it's not I'm not kind of an expert with it, but obviously people with ADHD have irregular levels of dopamine.
• 15:08
  SPEAKER_00: So the things that I guess um I think they call them neurotypical people um without ADHD have those sort of chemicals that are produced and the processes they go through isn't isn't quite the same.
• 15:23
  SPEAKER_00: So the impulse idea with um buying things and getting that rush is is a real thing.
• 15:31
  SPEAKER_00: Um for some reason for myself, it's maybe going back to my background or my relationship with money.
• 15:36
  SPEAKER_00: I I do get that a little bit, but I seem to be able to stabilize.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I do still have those hyper focus moments where, like, for example, I've just bought three new pairs of trainers, um, all for different reasons, and I've researched them all because yeah, they're all got to be the right ones.
• 15:53
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, but I could go like a few years without buying anything really um like that.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_00: So yeah, it uh Monzo Bank, who are a challenger bank, do some fantastic work on ADHD awareness.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_03: I'm with Monzo, they're very, very good.
• 16:10
  SPEAKER_00: They do the reels and they actually quantify.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: I can't remember the exact stats, but actually it's it's um really eye-opening as to um how you could be um worse off in terms of your money if you have ADHD.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_00: They've put some real numbers towards it.
• 16:28
  SPEAKER_00: So that's great that they're doing that.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: But yeah, I think um for me it's it yeah, it comes down to the same thing.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: It's um it's not trying to I think we're we're kind of quite obsessed as a society with still with perfection.
• 16:47
  SPEAKER_00: Um I was brought up before like the filter and selfie age, but like it's just got a million times worse now.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_00: So I think a lot of the time, and it's it's great to see those TikToks and all the things everywhere with ADHD sort of labelling because it's it's something that people don't have to be um ashamed about.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: But also once you've identified these things, it's the same with other behaviours with money, it doesn't mean you have to necessarily fix everything, it's it's just being aware of that and putting things in place.
• 17:22
  SPEAKER_00: So even little things like making sure your um bills are all coming out on the first of the month just after you're paid, because then you're less likely gonna have less money then to maybe splurge on those impulse buyers, or being mindful of that when you're going to buy something, it's like, right, do I need this?
• 17:43
  SPEAKER_00: Um and thinking of the bigger picture as well.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_00: So, yeah, we're not perfect, but I think just those little things will would really help.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_05: I think that leads really nicely into my next point in terms of like diversity and inclusion is always something that you've been really passionate about as well.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_05: Also, like the idea that you know we are all human and we are all equal.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_05: So, do you mind talking to about that that a little bit further for us, please, Alice?
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_07: Yeah, so that that's um very close to my heart in lots of different like aspects, and um, we talked about this before, but sometimes like diversity, you know, we there are some bits that you look at, but it's also just thinking about the whole, just everybody, we're all different.
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_07: Um, you know, so I mentioned to you before that so my parents are in a same-sex relationship, and I feel like for me that's just helped.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_07: Like it's since I was like two, uh you know, it just opens you up to different worlds, different groups of people, and I don't know how to explain it, it's just I see that's you know, I see people as who they are and what they bring to the conversation and to the world and to everything rather than you know, sort of any kind of labels, um, which is I really enjoy, and we've moved into like a diversity and inclusion um before in this committee basically.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_07: So it's it's employee-led, so it's myself and a few employees opened up because we were just passionate about it in so many ways.
• 19:06
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I had a lady on my team who basically has been diagnosed with autism, and while she's been working with me, I've never um experienced it before, I've never it's never been something that came up, I've never managed someone with autism, but we spent a lot of time talking about it, being really open.
• 19:24
  SPEAKER_07: She sent me those links to read, and it's just been like that openness and that kindness, and just spending time with them, and every individual person is so different, and what they need is different, and giving them all like I said, this the space to be successful, you know.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_07: She tells me um what's not useful.
• 19:41
  SPEAKER_07: Actually, when you communicate like this, I don't really get where you're coming from.
• 19:44
  SPEAKER_07: I need you to do this, this, and this.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_07: It's great, amazing.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_07: Like, all I want is to make sure that all of them are successful, which progression plans, whether it's you know, talking to them in a certain way that communicates, that makes it easier.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_07: Like, this is just it makes me really excited to be able to um just make small amendments to my day or the way I would talk or the way I would communicate that actually makes a huge difference to their ability to be successful at Saltis.
• 20:11
  SPEAKER_07: Um so yeah, it's one of those things that I never really thought about before.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_07: But when we when I got to Psalters and all these things, and people different, and we didn't have um a diversity committee, but we were like, we want to be better, like so it was we're all trying, we're all learning, and going actually we need this.
• 20:32
  SPEAKER_07: And we did um a big presentation to the whole company on neurodiversity with different types, and yeah, it just I think being open to it and making sure we were just kind because it's why I wanted to ask her, and it wasn't um I was asking her what she needed from me, and sometimes that maybe makes people feel awkward to be like oh, you know, don't mention it.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_07: It's actually like, but I wanna I want to know, send me things, let me read content, let me you know, help you.
• 21:02
  SPEAKER_07: Let we have the most lovely relationship since it's really helped.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I've been able to like mediate conversations for her because the communication's been tricky, she's actually asked me to come along.
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_07: You know, it's been a really nice experience and like opened me up to way more types of diversity.
• 21:20
  SPEAKER_07: Obviously, our industry lacking diversity um in terms of gender and all that kind of those kind of things, which is hugely important, but there is so much more to it.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_07: Um, I think I'm just so much more aware of all the different types of people and neurodivergence, and all these things that crop up and you don't maybe think about straight away.