Latest / Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo / Jason Jimenez: Progressive Christians Hijacking Jesus & the Church!

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Jason Jimenez: Progressive Christians Hijacking Jesus & the Church! · Worldview Matters With David Fiorazo

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  Welcome to World View Matters, discussing controversial issues, discerning current events,
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  defending biblical Christianity.
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  No topic, off limits.
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  And now, here's your host, David Fierazzo.
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  Hey friends, thanks for tuning in, thanks for sharing the podcast, can't wait to talk
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  to Jason Yemeniz of Stan Strong Ministries.
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  He's got a couple great books out.
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  He's an author and apologist, his website is standstrongministries.org.
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  The author of challenging conversations, parenting Gen Z, and the brand new, and we're going
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  to talk about today, hijacking Jesus, how progressive Christians are remaking him and
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  taking over his church.
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  Let's dive into this with Jason.
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  Welcome brother, good to see you.
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  Happy New Year.
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  Yeah, happy New Year to you David, thanks for having me man.
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  Good, good, it's good to have you.
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  We can still say happy New Year right even though we're, yeah, it's always, it's always
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  a new day.
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  So it's a new year.
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  Maybe once it hits February 1st, we can get back on it.
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  Hey, I've been watching some of the videos, I love the topic because this is such a cancer
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  in the church.
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  I've written years ago about the emergent church and all the gurus and all the conversationalists
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  and basically it's liberal Christianity, right?
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  So I want to just quote from your website, it says hijacking Jesus unravels the controversial
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  narrative painted by progressive Christians about Jesus and reveals how progressive Christianity
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  not only uproots the fabric of historic Christianity, but overhauls the very identity and integrity
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  of Jesus and pushes the boundary of biblical theology and quote, there's a lot in there
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  Jason and you've got referrals or recommendations, endorsements from J. Warner Wallace, at least
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  the shoulders, Frank Turk, I've been blessed to talk to each one of them and great people
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  that you've also been interviewing with on their shows, including got questions.
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  I just saw that one last night as watching you talk with Shay.
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  That was a great conversation, bro.
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  So let's get right into this.
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  This has been a problem in the church for a long, long time.
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  Why did you decide to write about this now?
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  Yeah, I mean, Dave, I mean, there's a lot there, obviously, you know, when you think about
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  why did you write something like this?
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  And to be honest, I would have to say to this point in my ministry for 25 years, this
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  was definitely something that God laid on my heart that as I was just doing my own personal
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  deep dive into what certain attacks, if you will, that were happening in our culture
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  today, or you talked to young people who deconstructed their faith or they de-converted
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  from Christianity, and inevitably the road tend to lead to progressive Christianity.
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  So it wasn't like they were abandoning it completely, saying, I'm an atheist now.
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  Yeah, I run into that in my ministry from time to time.
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  But there was this new narrative, this new speech, this new belief system.
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  And I've known a progressive Christianity as you and many of your listeners.
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  And you know, our friend, Alisa Childers, and reading another gospel, and there was other
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  books that I got my hands on that I dove into.
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  But I never intended to write a book exposing what progressive Christianity is.
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  And as I met with my team, and I traveled, and I was actually speaking on progressive Christianity
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  in some audiences, I started to develop an outline.
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  And one of the things that I found, this is really the driving point of writing hijack
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  in Jesus, was that Christians themselves don't understand what it is that we believe.
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  And as a result of it, they are way more likely to get sucked into something that presents
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  itself as true as Christian, and yet it isn't.
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  And so what I wanted to do is I wanted to sit down and show a compare and contrast to
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  what biblical Christianity is versus what this new movement that is known as progressive
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  Christianity that is taking over many of these churches.
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  These are churches that you've talked a lot about on your show about the wokeness, right?
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  Woke Jesus' aspects.
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  And that's why I wanted to write the book.
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  So is Seeker's sensitive Christianity or Seeker's sensitive churches, is that, for lack
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  of a better word, a gateway to progressive Christianity, because you've got to water
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  down the truth of the gospel, and is that how Satan gets in there?
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  Well, absolutely.
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  I mean, that's an aspect of what Satan does.
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  Now, what I did, and this had really been done, was I say, you know what, let's focus
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  on the person of Jesus.
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  So when you talk about a water down church, when you talk about an emergent church,
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  when you talk about a woke church or an all-inclusive church, really if you think about
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  it, it is what their narrative or their portrayal of Jesus is.
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  And as such, thus goes Christianity, right?
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  And so in the housing of progressive Christianity, they do believe that Jesus essentially was
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  like the first Christian, well, we don't believe that, right?
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  Jesus was not the first Christian, the savior of the world.
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  He's the centrality of Christianity.
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  And so what I wanted to do is I said, okay, if you look at some of these, because you're
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  right.
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  And say, well, you know, this pastor teaches this, is this true, right?
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  And it's like, well, let's go back to the person of who Jesus is.
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  And so I just built it around, and this is helpful for your listeners.
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  When they do go into a church that they say, oh, it's secret-sensitive, or they say
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  it's all-inclusive, or they're getting really soft, or they have, you know, some things
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  like CRT, some things are coming out that they don't really like.
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  Well, ask yourself these six fundamental questions when it comes to the person of Jesus
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  where this church in this pastor stands.
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  Number one, do they believe that Jesus is not just the son of God in a generic sense.
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  Do they believe that Jesus is the second person in the Trinity?
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  Number two, do they believe that Jesus Christ came into this world through a virgin birth?
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  Number three, do they believe that Jesus himself, the second person in the Trinity who took
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  on a second nature was fully God and became fully man in the incarnation?
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  Do they believe that he performed miracles, supernatural acts of God?
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  Number four, do they believe that Jesus Christ died on the cross for our sins?
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  And it's only through the death and burial and resurrection of Jesus that one could be saved.
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  That leads to the fifth question.
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  Do they believe that Jesus Christ died physically, bodily, and literally on the cross for you and for me?
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  Lastly, do they believe that Jesus Christ will literally physically,
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  embody, return someday?
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  And that will help your listeners, David, I'm telling you, it will really give them direction
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  when it comes to some of these issues socially or circumstantially that sometimes are brought
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  up and on an ethical line.
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  What you want to do is you want to measure everything on account of who Jesus is.
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  So you're saying, get back to the essentials of the faith.
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  And when you, I think in one of your interviews that I was watching recently, you were saying
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  progressive Christians don't even agree with some or all the essentials.
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  They are off on other things and they, they have different doctrines, different beliefs.
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  That's how they tend to stray so far from the, the biblical worldview.
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  Is that, would that be a good way of putting it?
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  I think it's a good way to put it and I would even go a step further just to be kind and
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  respectful, you know, to progressive Christians that you don't want to put words in their
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  mouth, right?
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  I mean, you want to be able to evaluate what they're actually saying.
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  And one thing that you will find, which is very difficult, by the way, to do.
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  And many of them will admit this off camera, you know, away from, from printing their name
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  in a book.
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  But you will find that when you are postmodern in your thinking, so let's take a step
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  back, shall we?
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  And let's say this, a progressive Christian, because that term progressive implies that
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  they're enlightened, that it's a like Christianity 2.0, and it's actually very misleading.
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  You know, progressive is just somebody who does not take the Bible literally.
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  They take it metaphorically.
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  They are anti super naturalists.
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  They don't believe in actual miracles occurring in the Bible.
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  They believe that the Bibles fill with a bunch of errors.
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  They believe that their experience and their faith derived by other means and other experiences
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  and religious beliefs is what they themselves experientially and personally can live out.
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  So when it comes to progressive Christians' faith, they don't necessarily hold to pillars
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  or doctrines.
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  So when you said the word earlier, essentials, as we were talking about, the deity of Jesus,
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  his virgin birth, his miracles, his death and resurrection, the atonement, and the second
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  coming, they don't hold to these pillars or these essentials.
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  They think that that's too rigid, you know, that we've evolved from that, that Christianity
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  and the love of God is far greater than these doctrines and these dogmas that we put
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  in books.
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  So they say those are too restrictive.
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  So they don't have, quote, beliefs, right?
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  You see that all over the place.
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  And as a result of it, in their post-modern thinking, they don't have certain tenets
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  of their faith.
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  So your experience as a progressive Christian may be different than my experience as a progressive
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  Christian, but as a collective, we are evolving into this oneness of God or this manifestation
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  of whatever God, quote, is that's so it's very hard to nail it down as a result of it.
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  So ultimately to the biblical Christian listening who holds to the essentials of the Christian
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  faith, I would then say a actually more accurate way to describe a progressive Christian
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  according to their own definitions, by the way, is that they are metaphorical Christians
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  or they are religious, modern, nostics.
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  They hold to a form of tradition and religiosity.
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  They're modern in the fact that they hold to the enlightenment period and they're nostics
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  because most of them will substitute the canonical gospels for the nostic gospels.
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  So when I'm taking them at their word then, David, they are religious, modern, nostics.
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  Interesting.
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  And that's accurate to put that way.
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  How big of a problem is the abandoning the inerrancy of the scriptures.
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  I mean, this is nothing new.
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  This goes way back.
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  I mean, in the church in America, I mean, there was a fight a hundred years ago.
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  I think it was a Presbyterian church that split over some of these essentials and then
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  decades later, fuller seminary among others started to back off from the inerrancy
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  of scriptures.
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  How big of a problem is that?
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  And obviously that leads to some of the progressive thinking, doesn't it?
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  Oh, absolutely.
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  So what I do in the book, and this will be very helpful.
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  People are very interested in engaged on this because as you and I know, more and more
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  people are coming to us saying, I'm not progressive, but I definitely have family members
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  right?
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  Friends who are progressive.
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  And so to your point, going back to a period of time known as rationalism in the period
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  of enlightenment.
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  So we're talking about the 17th and 18th centuries.
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  And what I do in the book is I chart the course of where we're at today because a lot of
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  people said, I never knew this.
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  Where did this come from?
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  I never saw this coming.
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  I said, well, this has been evolving for quite some time.
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  I mean, if we want to, we can literally go back to the guard of Eden when Satan used
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  what God said and twisted it and became relativistic to Adam and Eve, right?
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  And you see this, this view point of postmodernity that is spring out as a result of original
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  sin.
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  But there's an interesting character, David, that that came out, he's known as the father
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  of modern biblical criticism.
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  And this goes back to the time period, he was born in 1638 people think, who cares?
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  This is 2024.
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  The reason why this matters is because he's known as the father of modern biblical criticism.
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  His name is Richard Simon.
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  He was one of the first people who attacked the Bible.
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  He wrote a book called the critical history of the text of the New Testament.
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  And he began to show, remember, this was an appeared where everybody was embracing super
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  naturalism and everybody was embracing the Bible.
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  I'm not saying they're living as a Christian, but they believe that the Bible was a source
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  of knowledge in religion.
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  It was accepted in the culture.
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  Well, Richard Simon ravely came out and began to attack and expose a parent, okay?
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  These are apparent contradictions of the Bible.
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  And over time, people began to use it, David, human, right?
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  The father of skepticism.
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  Then you had a guy named Immanuel Kant, who came in known as he was the father of agnosticism
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  in which eventually led people to say the Bible isn't true.
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  There are errors in the Bible.
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  So yes, fundamentally, if you believe that the Bible is filled with errors,
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  and you can't believe it, and we are not to take it literally,
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  but take it metaphorically, then what is the outcome?
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  There is no authority that the Bible holds.
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  Wow. Excellent point.
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  And thank you for mentioning those men that would be good to look into in the timeline of this.
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  We've got to take a quick break.
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  We're with Jason Yamenez, standstrongministries.org.
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  The book is called High Jacking Jesus.
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  We'll be right back on World View Matters.
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  Today's show is brought to you by Harbinger's Daily.
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  World news biblically understood.
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  Stay informed at harbingerstaley.com.
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  So Jason, I love the true historical account of Jonah, who actually lived and preached to the men of Nineveh,
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  that a lot of progressive Christians, I would guess, might say that didn't actually happen.
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  There's no way a big fish or a whale could swallow a man and let alone him being able to survive three days and three nights.
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  So they're already putting God into box, but Jesus affirmed Jonah.
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  He mentioned it several times.
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  In fact, he said just as Jonah was three days and three nights in the belly of the whale or the great fish,
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  the son of man will be three days and three nights in the heart of the year.
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  So he actually said just as that happened, this is going to happen.
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  Share your thoughts on that because it's not just Jonah, I'm sure Noah and the flood.
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  There are other things that they could say, no, that was that didn't actually happen.
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  It's just a metaphor.
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  Well, exactly.
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  So then if you trace, and this is what I like, by the way, in the in the terms of apologetics is actually,
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  I use what progressive Christians give me.
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  So let's actually look at a famous individual, Richard Roer.
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  Now, it's important for your audience to also understand, David, that not all progressives as we said in the last segment are equal.
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  So in the category, and this is what I want to do to be very consistent in looking at progressive Christianity through the standpoint or through the lens and the perspective and the interpretation of certain progressives.
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  Some of them are more mystical than others.
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  So identify these specifically in the category of a mystical progressive Christian.
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  Others are more historical nature.
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  OK, so that would be, you know, people that I mentioned before in the last segment, you would derive them as progressive Christians, but like a guy like Colby Martin, who's a progressive pastor, you know, he holds to more experience, OK, than anything.
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  So what they do actually, whether it be a mystic like Richard war or someone like a Colby Martin or a David Gushy, OK, who's written extensively on the new path of evangelicalism.
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  They will actually use portions of the canonical gospels to make a point.
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  So what they like to do is they'll say, OK, well, yeah, David, you're right.
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  You know, we have those in the canonical gospels that Jesus refer to Jonah.
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  But what you guys fail to understand is the spiritual significance.
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  The point is whether or not Jonah existed is irrelevant.
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  You guys always make the case based on historicity that it is relevant that in order for the spiritual mood or the parabolic teaching, right, or the moral teaching of it.
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  You say in order for it, that to be true, it has to be historically true.
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  That's not that's that's not the point they'll they'll say to us, we don't know whether or not it's true.
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  Because the BIOS filled a bunch of errors.
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  But what Jesus was just saying is he was just using it as an example about newness of life.
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  So for example, many of them deny a literal resurrection.
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  But what they say, no, the spiritual overtones of what Jesus was teaching was about forgiveness and about how we always have to be renewing our minds and always looking for something that benefits peace and prosperity, right.
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  So they're always looking at these spiritual overtones and they're neglecting the significance of it historically speaking.
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  So when you say, what about Jesus referred to Jonah or Jesus referred to Adam and Eve in Matthew chapter 19, they'll say, again, we don't even know if Adam and Eve existed.
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  The point is Jesus was just referencing certain people, but we don't really know if he did or not.
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  And I like this in the case of talking to an average progressive Christian.
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  I said, I like how you, or I say this, it's interesting that you always pick and choose when you want to rely on something that Jesus said to make your point.
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  Like the sermon on the mount.
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  Most of them don't discredit that because I'd like to use the sermon amount as the sermon of social justice, the way they interpret it.
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  But then immediately following, like you said, they'll discredit the Jonah narrative.
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  They can't have it both ways.
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  Okay. And that's important for us to understand.
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  So yes, progressives like to pick and choose along the way as long as in their mind, the way they interpret it is making Jesus that all
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  inclusive teacher, like love is love.
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  But then the moment you say, well, that's interesting that you believe that about Jesus.
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  But what about when Jesus called out sin in Mark chapter eight or Matthew chapter 15 and then all of a sudden now it's like, oh, well, that was a spiritual, right?
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  You need to, you can't take that literally.
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  So I hold them to that, right?
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  And that's an important measured approach, respectfully speaking the truth and love.
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  And so, you know, when Jesus called out sin in Mark chapter 15, that would be helpful for your listeners to do when they're engaging somebody who identifies as a progressive Christian.
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  So you brought up one of their slogans, love is love and whatever that you notice how they never say truth is truth.
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  It's always love is love.
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  You have to define love. They're defining in a different way, first of all.
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  But how do you respond to that? We know more people are being duped by that because it sounds good. It feels good. It's emotional.
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  It's inclusive, supportive of everybody because everybody should love everybody. God said we should love everybody.
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  But they're using it to justify something that the Bible considers sinful behavior.
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  And Jesus, he's the one that defined marriage between one man and one woman.
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  And here they are saying, well, no, no, no, love is love.
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  It's hard for me to understand the leap that a progressive Christian would take to defend that. Can you explain for us?
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  Yeah, I mean, and so what we need to do as a biblical Christian, somebody who is renewing our mind with critical thinking and a measured approach as I like to say succinctly is understand that love is God.
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  God is the measure of all things, not man.
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  So it's not to be arbitrary or capricious to the individual.
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  So we're not what we're not doing is we're not crafting individualized sexual ethics.
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  The standard of how we live to know what love is comes from God. That's the standard.
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  So let's case in point that debunks that very we call it, you know, kind of a promo or a tag.
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  But what they're saying, and this is a philosophy, love is love.
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  And I say to them, my love to you is that you're wrong and the error of your ways can lead to destruction.
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  They said, that's not love. So notice now they're not only rewriting love, but love is measured by their experience or their sexual desires in this case because most of that slogan came out of what LGBT.
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  Yep.
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  So that's how they're defining it when they say love is love.
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  They're not saying when a mom loves a child or when a husband loves a wife or when a wife loves her husband.
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  So notice it's restricted in the context of their individualized sexual ethic that is primarily propagated through not just romanticism, but through sexual desires.
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  Which again speaks to their sexuality, whether it's their identity sexually or their orientation.
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  So that's when we address those kind of things in that restrictive sense and knowing that they're actually restricting themselves when they say love is love because when you look at love and other contextualized in, you know, situations and relationally,
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  then notice how they start responding to say, well, no, that's not love.
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  So when I say, well, love isn't between a man and a man, right, romantically, they say it is.
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  But when I say God loves his children there, if he disciplines them, they say, no, you think that's love, that's not love.
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  So it's okay that we can push back on it because again, our ultimate standard is God who is love and created us to love.
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  But we have to also admit, which again, in this camp, they don't seem to do is that we don't love the way that God has called us to love.
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  And that's something that I think, instead of dealing it on the sexual side oftentimes, we can do, we can do it in a way to approach a progressive and say, how are you loving me and the exchanging of ideas?
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  If you and I have different, you know, viewpoints of what love actually is or what a relationship ought to be in terms of a marriage and a union between a man and wife, you think that marriage is more than that.
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  And because you think that I'm being restricted between two genders and you, you think there's 72 different genders, right, you think that's more love because you're loving more people that supposedly have different lifestyles, orientations or identities.
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  You know, you see on my point, so that's how they see it. That's what they say all inclusive love is far greater. We're all inclusive.
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  You're not, you're exclusive. Therefore you love less. So when it came to the mask or, you know, COVID during that time and vaccines, if somebody didn't, if they, if they freely chose not to take the vaccine.
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  People in that camp that believe love is love, they're saying, you want to kill society. Right. So you're not showing love.
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  So notice how love is love becomes way more judgmental and way more restrictive actually than when you do measure and define love by God.
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  Wow. And we could talk more about that. But I want to get to one more question because we're running out of time, Jason.
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  In your introduction, you say sometimes doctrinal debates, not a cramonious disputes.
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  Doctoral debates and divisions are fitting even healthy for the church to experience. Why? And you say it forces Christians to pay closer attention to the teachings around them and learn to stand up for their beliefs.
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  And then you say we must be more like the Berean Jews who searched the scriptures daily to ensure that what they were taught aligned with the word of God. That's back to the word back to our standard back to our foundation.
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  Your final thoughts before we need to wrap it up.
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  Yeah, I mean, I think this is a good point to actually in the conversation. I appreciate it, David, because what Christians need to understand is first and foremost, in house, we need to have open debates.
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  If you look back at our church fathers, if you look at councils and creeds and as they are not formulating doctrines that again, we're hijacking the Bible.
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  They were taking the Bible at its word through canonization that we had a measured approach to ensure what we had in scripture came from prophets of God and apostles of Jesus Christ.
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  And with that as our standard, we move forward to ensure that doctrinally, theologically as we unpack the incarnation, the Trinity, that it coincides to the truth that we see in scripture.
• 25:33
  And those were debated over time. And that was a good thing. Now we are not to divide. We are to remain united. We are to be like-minded. But there are disputes we're told in Romans 14 that we can have that are actually very healthy to have these type of disagreements to work through things and get people to consider on the other side of the argument, maybe I'm wrong.
• 25:56
  And as we do that, we actually preserve Christianity. We can defend it more critically and more winsomely. And it also prepares us then to leave our home, to leave the church, to debate greater issues of people who actually try to hijack Jesus, hijack the Bible and hijack Christianity.
• 26:16
  So the more we can actually disagree with Christians, it prepares us to debate people out there in the world.
• 26:21
  Yes. And as you said, it's healthy and it's necessary. I mean, some of the debates that took place in past centuries were necessary for the church.
• 26:32
  But Jason Yemenis, standstrongministries.org, the book is called hijacking Jesus, how progressive Christians are remaking him and taking over the church.
• 26:41
  Brother, I appreciate your ministry. I don't know how you do all that you do. And take care of your family as well and go into two separate fast food restaurants.
• 26:50
  Anyway, God bless you, brother. We'll stay in touch.
• 26:53
  All right, buddy. God bless you.
• 26:55
  All right. Thanks. All right, guys. Tomorrow, Heidi St. John, the busy mom is on the show and Monday, Mike Gendron.
• 27:03
  Just thank you so much for supporting World View Matters. I love the people I get to talk to and glean from and learn from.
• 27:10
  And I hope you do as well. God bless you. And as always, keep speaking the truth about things that matter.