Latest / The Paul Barron Crypto Show / Robinhood Tokenized Stocks🚀DeFi Stimulus Incoming!🚨INTERVIEW

Transcript

Robinhood Tokenized Stocks🚀DeFi Stimulus Incoming!🚨INTERVIEW · The Paul Barron Crypto Show

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Can you trace this market move to actually what's been
• 0:02
  Speaker 1: going on with Robinhood and Robinhood Chain? Today, we're going
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: to be breaking that down because it could be a
• 0:07
  Speaker 1: stimulus continuing to pay dividends out there. Before we get started,
• 0:12
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• 0:24
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• 0:26
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• 0:28
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• 0:33
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• 0:38
  Speaker 1: lot of you guys are starting to get into digital
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: assets and you're going to need one of these. So
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: let's get to it. First thing I want to hit
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: on was the movement from Coinbase and Base as the platform,
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: which has absolutely gone bonkers in launching tokenized stocks around Bitcoin.
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: It feels like around the globe because it's on Aave, Aerodrome, Bitwise.
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: You're seeing almost everything you can imagine. The layer of
• 1:07
  Speaker 1: this launch has been maybe in response to what's been
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: going on with Robinhood. When you look at Robinhood's growth
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: right here on Robinhood Chain, it has been significant in
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: less than just a little while. This is like one month.
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: And here we are right now at about $ 618 million
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: right now on TBL.
• 1:24
  Speaker 2: So..
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: That in itself is a pretty big deal. If you
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: look at Coinbase in that first month, a little different.
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: I would probably rate it maybe to the first year
• 1:36
  Speaker 1: back in 24 of getting up to around $ 1. 4 billion.
• 1:41
  Speaker 1: So there might be an opportunity here where we could
• 1:44
  Speaker 1: see some pretty massive growth going forward. And other things
• 1:47
  Speaker 1: that you have to look at with Robinhood, is the
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: fact that these vaults have absolutely continued to climb. And
• 1:55
  Speaker 1: I think this is one of the things, when you
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: look at the vault TVL growth, along with what's going
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: on in just a short period of time, this kind
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: of opportunity starts to set up a lot of things
• 2:05
  Speaker 1: within the Robinhood app, as well as the DeFi wallet.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: And today we wanted to bring on a guest to
• 2:10
  Speaker 1: kind of break this down and get into it. And
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: I've got Ash Manica, who is the founder of DiveSquare Advisory.
• 2:16
  Speaker 1: How are you, Ash?
• 2:18
  Speaker 3: Good. Thanks for having me on.
• 2:20
  Speaker 1: All right, so a couple of things that are going
• 2:22
  Speaker 1: on right now. First of all, I know you're an
• 2:25
  Speaker 1: advisor for Arrow Finance, which could be a very interesting
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: connection to what's going on with Robinhood. First of all,
• 2:32
  Speaker 1: can you explain a little bit about what Arrow Finance
• 2:36
  Speaker 1: does and the team in general? I'm just kind of
• 2:39
  Speaker 1: curious of the project itself.
• 2:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, absolutely. So if you take a step back, obviously
• 2:44
  Speaker 2: everyone's audience knows Robinhood launched its L2 to bring tokenized
• 2:49
  Speaker 2: stocks on-chain and other RWAs, you know, their goal, at
• 2:53
  Speaker 2: least my understanding, is to build the rails for this
• 2:56
  Speaker 2: permissionless financial system that can capture the value of this
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: tokenization wave. But if you really think about it, right, like, especially,
• 3:04
  Speaker 2: you know, at least in the US, tokenized equities aren't
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: really actually that valuable because they're not financeable, right? Like,
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: you can only really hold them custody in your DeFi wallet.
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, the value proposition, say, for the
• 3:19
  Speaker 2: Robinhood customer who has a brokerage account, they can buy NVIDIA,
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: they can hold it, they can take out margin to
• 3:26
  Speaker 2: place other trades without selling the underlying position. You know,
• 3:31
  Speaker 2: that process isn't as straightforward with a stock token, right?
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, the team that built Arrow Finance,
• 3:39
  Speaker 2: you know, pseudonymous group of DeFi builders, they saw that
• 3:43
  Speaker 2: opportunity to build sort of the native lending protocol for
• 3:48
  Speaker 2: Robinhood chain, you know, standard CDP, collateralized debt position. It
• 3:53
  Speaker 2: allows you to basically deposit a tokenized stock, potentially, you know,
• 3:58
  Speaker 2: another tokenized asset, mint their sort of over collateralized stablecoin, AUSD,
• 4:06
  Speaker 2: and then borrow against that in order to place other trades.
• 4:10
  Speaker 2: So that went to Testnet right around the time of
• 4:13
  Speaker 2: Robinhood's launch. The product is live, fully functional today. The
• 4:20
  Speaker 2: caps are still conservative. The team's working on an external
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: audit with Sherlock DeFi, but I think by the time
• 4:28
  Speaker 2: this comes out, it should be available to users more promptly.
• 4:35
  Speaker 1: You mentioned AUSD. Can you explain its use case?
• 4:40
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so it's really meant to serve as the, you know,
• 4:43
  Speaker 2: the over collateralized stable coin that allows you to sort
• 4:47
  Speaker 2: of access liquidity from your tokenized assets. That's the vision
• 4:52
  Speaker 2: right now. Obviously, you know, depending on how the ecosystem develops,
• 4:56
  Speaker 2: you know, there are other ways to sort of provide
• 4:59
  Speaker 2: users with that liquidity. But I think like the core
• 5:01
  Speaker 2: vision really is on being that native lending protocol for
• 5:05
  Speaker 2: Robinhood Chain.
• 5:07
  Speaker 1: I'm looking over, and you guys can find this out there,
• 5:10
  Speaker 1: with staking.aerofinance.io, and you'll get into it. But there's a
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: couple of things I wanted to get on with this
• 5:16
  Speaker 1: in terms of tier one and tier two equities. There's
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: typical tier one, Apple, NVIDIA. And then you have the
• 5:23
  Speaker 1: tier two equities, similar, but explain those for me.
• 5:27
  Speaker 3: Sure, yeah.
• 5:29
  Speaker 2: And I think this kind of speaks to rolling out
• 5:31
  Speaker 2: a product and wanting to sort of– I think, be
• 5:36
  Speaker 2: a little conservative as we have adoption, right?
• 5:38
  Speaker 3: Like if you think about.
• 5:39
  Speaker 2: The collateral base on chain, really, you know, stable coins
• 5:44
  Speaker 2: obviously make up a significant role. As we're thinking about
• 5:47
  Speaker 2: tokenized stocks and equities and sort of, you know, the
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: risk that we're taking on with a new protocol, it
• 5:53
  Speaker 2: makes sense to kind of focus on those, I guess
• 5:57
  Speaker 2: you can call them tier one equities, you know, the
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: widely traded.
• 6:00
  Speaker 3: Retail names that are also going.
• 6:02
  Speaker 2: To be very familiar to Robinhood's traditional brokerage customers. So
• 6:06
  Speaker 2: you think, you know, the NVIDIAs, the Apples, the world.
• 6:10
  Speaker 2: And that, you know, that makes adoption a bit easier.
• 6:13
  Speaker 2: You know, I'll also say, you know, what we're seeing is,
• 6:16
  Speaker 2: you know, other projects. I think one that's, that I'm
• 6:19
  Speaker 2: not affiliated with, but that's really interesting is Index. They
• 6:24
  Speaker 2: sort of have a protocol, a technology that basically distributes RWAs.
• 6:30
  Speaker 2: A lot of these widely held names do have users
• 6:34
  Speaker 2: who trade their token and then who also sort of
• 6:37
  Speaker 2: launch a, you know, a token through like the Pons launchpad.
• 6:41
  Speaker 3: So like a meme coin.
• 6:42
  Speaker 2: So, you know, looking at like where the volumes of
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: Robinhood have been, right. A lot of, a lot of
• 6:48
  Speaker 2: trading in RWAs, but then also a lot of volumes
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: in some of these meme coins and other cultural assets.
• 6:53
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, you're seeing, I think the goal
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: for Arrow in terms of where we, where they provide
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: collateral is going to be in those, you in those
• 7:02
  Speaker 2: names that are already like widely distributed on chain and
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: that users are.
• 7:06
  Speaker 3: Holding in their walls.
• 7:08
  Speaker 1: Okay. You mentioned index. Are you using index?
• 7:11
  Speaker 3: Uh, yeah, I'm, I'm experimenting with it. I think it's
• 7:13
  Speaker 3: really cool what they're doing.
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: Cause I think it's sort of, um, you know, it
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: inverts the psychology a bit where, you know, with a
• 7:19
  Speaker 2: new chain launch, um, you have a ton of, uh,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: you know, I guess what you would call like the
• 7:24
  Speaker 2: traditional DJ activity, right.
• 7:25
  Speaker 3: Where there's like tons of memes, tons of speculation.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: Uh, but while you're doing that, you're also sort of
• 7:32
  Speaker 2: getting RWAs deposited in your account, right? So you're kind of,
• 7:37
  Speaker 2: you're creating a sort of a distribution funnel for, I
• 7:42
  Speaker 2: guess what you could call real assets within the traditional
• 7:47
  Speaker 2: like degen speculation frame.
• 7:50
  Speaker 1: Do you think that Robinhood would likely build their own
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: lending and borrowing tech stack or would they use something
• 7:56
  Speaker 1: like Arrow to do this?
• 7:58
  Speaker 3: It's a good question.
• 7:59
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, we that that's obviously their call.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: I think, you know, obviously I think for, for their
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: ecosystem to work, you have to have a sort of
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: a native lending protocol.
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: Right. And I think it's, it's definitely Arrow's opportunity to win.
• 8:14
  Speaker 2: And I think the goal is, you know, to build
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: a native protocol for Robinhood chain and be accretive to
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: their ecosystem and aligned with their ultimate vision and direction.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: If that were to happen, Do you think we would
• 8:28
  Speaker 1: see Arrow on the Robinhood DeFi wallet?
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: Well, it is. I mean, it is accessible. Oh, you
• 8:36
  Speaker 3: mean as a formal integration?
• 8:38
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I think it's definitely something that.
• 8:41
  Speaker 3: The team would love to explore. And obviously, that would
• 8:43
  Speaker 3: be an incredible opportunity for adoption of the tech.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: And yeah, the team very much wants to be aligned with,
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: you know, this is a dedicated protocol for the Robinhood
• 8:54
  Speaker 2: ecosystem and for people trading on, for people using Robinhood.
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 8:58
  Speaker 1: So you've got Robinhood doing a lot of, I mean,
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: essence with the launch of the chain. You could consider
• 9:04
  Speaker 1: maybe Robinhood going into maybe a model here of stimulating
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: the DeFi economy with incentives. Do you think that's a possibility?
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 9:13
  Speaker 2: Well, they've done sort of the gas subsidy for the
• 9:18
  Speaker 2: early chain launch. So they're subsidizing gas fees on Robinhood Chain.
• 9:22
  Speaker 2: And it seems that that's been a successful program. And
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: I think it fits within Robinhood's ethos of, you know,
• 9:31
  Speaker 2: they obviously introduced commission-free trading in traditional equities. And so,
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: you know, it very much fits within Robinhood's ethos to
• 9:40
  Speaker 2: offer the best possible economics to customers and users.
• 9:44
  Speaker 3: And so it seems to.
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: Me that you obviously can't speak for the company, but
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: that would be aligned with their approach.
• 9:49
  Speaker 3: All right.
• 9:50
  Speaker 1: So let me think through this for a second. So
• 9:53
  Speaker 1: Robinhood stimulating the DeFi economy. You look at index where
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: essentially on Robinhood chain they could literally drop RWA's into
• 10:03
  Speaker 1: a lot of, because memes have been kind of what
• 10:06
  Speaker 1: Robinhood chain launched on. So that would be a legit
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: airdrop if you started dropping RWA's.
• 10:14
  Speaker 3: Well, I'd say, so I don't think they launched, as
• 10:17
  Speaker 3: a meme chain. I think that they have..
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Well, it didn't launch that way, but everybody kind of
• 10:22
  Speaker 1: migrated there for sure, at least in the beginning.
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: And I think the, you know, I think the gas subsidy,
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: you know, the easy sort of low cost speculation, you know,
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: made that possible. But I also think, look, I think
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: it's been, you know, I think it's been constructive in
• 10:37
  Speaker 2: a lot of ways where you have this early community
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: adoption and you have, you know, all this cultural interest
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: in Robinhood Chain with the crypto community.
• 10:48
  Speaker 3: And then you have, I think.
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: The smarter projects have leaned in rather than kind of
• 10:54
  Speaker 2: shy away from that or kind of have a sort
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: of a condescending approach towards memes have, you know, have
• 11:01
  Speaker 2: leaned into where the volume is.
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: And I like Index, I think is a great example
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: of that.
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: And I think you also see that from Arrow too, right?
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: Where the technology is asset agnostic.
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, there are certainly discussions with the
• 11:15
  Speaker 2: team around, uh, how you could, uh, not only use RWAs,
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: but potentially use some of these cultural, uh, assets, meme coins,
• 11:22
  Speaker 2: what have you, um, you know, with obviously more conservative
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: caps and, uh, you know, appropriate borrowing costs given, given
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: the volatility. Um, but, you know, I think it's, um, look, it's, it,
• 11:34
  Speaker 2: the goal is, I think that, you know, and I
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: think I, you know, I've seen Vlad say this on social, right?
• 11:38
  Speaker 2: Like they're, uh, you know, it's, it's, uh, it's an
• 11:41
  Speaker 2: RW chain, but it's great for memes too.
• 11:44
  Speaker 1: Well, I think he understands that because migration and also adoption,
• 11:48
  Speaker 1: early stage adoption, which feeds into this DJ community that
• 11:51
  Speaker 1: really Robinhood kind of was built on if you look
• 11:54
  Speaker 1: at all the way back to GameStop. So it seems
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: like it would be a natural fit for sure. You
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: look at the Robinhood lighter deal, 50-50 revenue split. Why
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: wouldn't Arrow go this route? Why wouldn't they go this route?
• 12:10
  Speaker 2: I think it's something the team is certainly open to.
• 12:14
  Speaker 2: So I think it's very much something the team would
• 12:16
  Speaker 2: be open to. I can't comment on the specific lighter deal,
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: but I don't see why not.
• 12:24
  Speaker 1: I want to let everybody know, if you guys have
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: not looked at your Robinhood wallet, go take a look
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: at there. There's some interesting new elements within it. One
• 12:33
  Speaker 1: of them is the points now are live. This is
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: all integrated with lighter. So I just wonder, when you
• 12:39
  Speaker 1: look at the growth of what Coinbase is doing, I mean,
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: this seems like a showdown that's brewing right now, bigger
• 12:45
  Speaker 1: than what it was just for Spot, okay? You've got
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: Robinhood and Coinbase literally, and it feels like Coinbase is
• 12:53
  Speaker 1: rushing to the market quickly with this for purpose. Do
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: you think Robinhood should be worried about Coinbase kind of
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: taking this thunder?
• 13:02
  Speaker 3: I think you can go back to 2022, right?
• 13:04
  Speaker 2: Sort of at the peak of the last cycle. And
• 13:08
  Speaker 2: you sort of had Robinhood, you know, both Robinhood and
• 13:11
  Speaker 2: Coinbase IPO at roughly the same time. And I think
• 13:15
  Speaker 2: you kind of had Robinhood gradually rolled out its crypto products.
• 13:23
  Speaker 2: Its first major DeFi native, or even if you want
• 13:27
  Speaker 2: to call it Web3 native product, was the non-custodial wallet,
• 13:31
  Speaker 2: which launched in May 2022. I think that the company
• 13:36
  Speaker 2: sort of took different approaches, right? Like Coinbase went to
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: market with their L1 base pretty soon after. The timing
• 13:43
  Speaker 2: was kind of interesting, right? Because they did that, you know,
• 13:46
  Speaker 2: right around the time of the FTX collapse after the
• 13:50
  Speaker 2: Terra Luna blow up. And I think that the dominant
• 13:53
  Speaker 2: thesis in crypto was like around, you know, like Web3
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: and creator coins.
• 13:59
  Speaker 3: And Zora and like the like read, write, own ideas.
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: And so I think Coinbase was, you know, really focused
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: on that set of ideas. I think Robinhood kind of,
• 14:09
  Speaker 2: you know, my, and I wasn't at the company, but
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: my interpretation is that they sort of took their time
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: to see where the market was heading, where exactly emerge. Um,
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: and then, you know, after, you know, president Trump's, uh, election,
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: obviously the much more favorable and construct constructive regulatory environment, uh,
• 14:28
  Speaker 2: you know, genius, uh, act passage, uh, obviously the, you know,
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: emerging market structure bill.
• 14:33
  Speaker 3: Uh, they sort of saw that the puck.
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: Was heading much more so to DeFi, which is also
• 14:39
  Speaker 2: aligned with their, you know, their core, you know, mission,
• 14:43
  Speaker 2: which is to democratize finance, right? And so I think
• 14:47
  Speaker 2: that they, you know, they saw where adoption was heading
• 14:50
  Speaker 2: and they, you know, built their L2.
• 14:52
  Speaker 3: To be for DeFi, to be for RWB, right?
• 14:57
  Speaker 2: And I think, look, I mean, if you look at what,
• 14:59
  Speaker 2: how Coinbase has reacted to their launch, it's sort of,
• 15:02
  Speaker 2: proves that Robinhood won that argument in a lot of ways, right?
• 15:06
  Speaker 2: And so, yeah, I think it'll be interesting to see,
• 15:08
  Speaker 2: but I think that.
• 15:09
  Speaker 1: It's- Yeah, I'm looking at the base layout right now.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: I mean, tokenized stocks here, the launch was significant. And
• 15:16
  Speaker 1: of course, granted, Robinhood definitely has the narrative and the
• 15:21
  Speaker 1: storytelling narrative that kind of flows into exactly what you
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: just kind of alluded to. And that is that it
• 15:28
  Speaker 1: is a culture- which applies more to DeFi than maybe
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: what we've seen with Spot Crypto, which has really been
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: Coinbase as the king. So I want to jump over
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: to the Arrow token and utility. If you consider the
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: Arrow token and its utility, could we ever see revenue
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: fees ever flow to holders, do you think?
• 15:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So I think right now it is a governance token.
• 15:53
  Speaker 2: But I do think, and again, don't want to speak
• 15:57
  Speaker 2: entirely for the team. But I think that there is
• 16:00
  Speaker 2: certainly room for much more actual utility.
• 16:03
  Speaker 3: In the token. And I think that.
• 16:06
  Speaker 2: Adoption and TVL grow and the products start to expand.
• 16:11
  Speaker 3: I think that we, I think it would make sense
• 16:14
  Speaker 3: to explore some of those options.
• 16:15
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: Okay. So I know you're an advisor with Arrow, but
• 16:20
  Speaker 1: if you look at the size of the market, TAM,
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: you know, total addressable market for tokenized stocks in general,
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: where would you put that in, say, the next 12
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: months to the next 36 months in terms of growth?
• 16:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 16:35
  Speaker 3: Well, you know, I don't want to give a specific number.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: What I will say is I think the opportunity outside
• 16:39
  Speaker 3: of the U.S. is really immediate, right?
• 16:42
  Speaker 2: And so I think, you know, we're at a starting
• 16:45
  Speaker 2: point where, you know, actually buying hold and custody in
• 16:50
  Speaker 2: a DeFi wallet is a compelling proposition outside of the U.S.
• 16:53
  Speaker 2: I think the TAM really depends on on two things.
• 16:57
  Speaker 2: One is the products that actually emerge on chain, right?
• 17:02
  Speaker 2: And so I think some of those will be built,
• 17:04
  Speaker 2: you know, by companies like Robinhood, but I think also by,
• 17:07
  Speaker 2: you know, the decentralized builders that are building composable systems.
• 17:11
  Speaker 2: And so, you know, that's where Arrow sits. And so,
• 17:14
  Speaker 2: you know, I do think that that's part of it.
• 17:15
  Speaker 2: I think the ecosystems that win will ultimately have, you know,
• 17:20
  Speaker 2: the best products and apps.
• 17:21
  Speaker 3: Built on top of them. I think the second thing.
• 17:25
  Speaker 2: Is in terms of how institutions engage, you know, in
• 17:30
  Speaker 2: this ecosystem and start to offer some of these products,
• 17:35
  Speaker 2: you know, in a trusted way to their clients and
• 17:39
  Speaker 2: to major asset managers and to, you know, the whales,
• 17:43
  Speaker 2: so to speak, right?
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: And so I think that's where, you know, and I
• 17:47
  Speaker 3: would say this for actually for both.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: Robinhood and Coinbase, I think where they have an opportunity
• 17:53
  Speaker 2: and that they're, you know, institutionally legible Companies like Robinhood Ventures,
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: for example, their fund, they were able to IPO with
• 18:05
  Speaker 2: Goldman Sachs as a lead underwriter.
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: And so I think it's looking at sort of where
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: are the.
• 18:11
  Speaker 2: Opportunities to have institutions engaged to accelerate mass adoption of
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: these tokenized products, but then also the products that decentralized
• 18:22
  Speaker 2: builders build on top of.
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: Of these layer twos.
• 18:25
  Speaker 2: And, you know, the ideal state is that actually what
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: you can do, the utility, the kinds of assets that
• 18:32
  Speaker 2: you can trade, the strategies that you can employ on
• 18:36
  Speaker 2: chain are actually more compelling than, than what exists off chain. And,
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: you know, just one last thing don't want to run on,
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: but like, for example, like agentic trading, right. Is, is
• 18:45
  Speaker 2: really interesting. And Robinhood has leaned into this and its
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: core brokerage product. But, you know, it, it, there's an
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: idea or thesis that blockchains are actually much more suited
• 18:58
  Speaker 2: for agentic activity and that agents.
• 19:00
  Speaker 3: Can run better on programmable money.
• 19:03
  Speaker 2: And can sort through much more rapidly than the average
• 19:07
  Speaker 2: user through sort of the nuances and pricing mechanisms between
• 19:10
  Speaker 2: different chains and operate in that sandbox in a really
• 19:15
  Speaker 2: interesting way.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: So yeah, I can't.
• 19:17
  Speaker 2: Give you a specific number, but I think probably, it's
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: probably pretty big.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: I'm looking at an AI analysis of it in terms
• 19:26
  Speaker 1: of trading volume on TAM over 24 months. And you
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: look at the growth here. They're claiming, it's claiming now
• 19:34
  Speaker 1: around $ 120 to $ 150 trillion annually within 24. And this
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: is in reference to the 220% year-to-date growth in 2026.
• 19:37
  Speaker 1: So this would be crazy for on-chain DEX.
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 19:40
  Speaker 1: Year-to-date growth in 2026. So this would be crazy for
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: on-chain DEX. Man, whoever wins this, because this is going
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: to be huge, whoever wins this in the next, I think,
• 19:57
  Speaker 1: probably 8 to 12 months is going to be the
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: titan in the industry. It's going to boil down to that.
• 20:04
  Speaker 1: So maybe that's why we're seeing the acceleration, obviously, here
• 20:07
  Speaker 1: by BASE and Coinbase. to get into this game and
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: quickly at the speed that they did it. So interesting stuff. Listen, Ash,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: thank you so much for coming in and give us
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: some insights on this. We appreciate you stopping by.
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: Awesome.
• 20:20
  Speaker 3: Thanks so much for having me on Paul.
• 20:28
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• 20:30
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