Latest / Dam Parenting / Why Pregnancy Loss Doesn't End When a Healthy Baby Arrives

Transcript

Why Pregnancy Loss Doesn't End When a Healthy Baby Arrives · Dam Parenting

0:00
Welcome back to Down Parenting and welcome to day ten of our 12
0:03
Days of Christmas. As the year draws to a close,
0:06
many families find themselves spending more time together than
0:08
usual, and often around the clock.
0:11
The routines are off, the days are long, everyone's tired, and
0:14
even strong relationships can start to feel a little stretched
0:19
if emotions are running high between adults right now.
0:21
You're not alone. That's why I chose this episode
0:24
for Day 10. Today, it's about relationships,
0:28
about communication, compromise, and finding steadier ground when
0:32
the stress levels are elevated and patience is running thin.
0:36
And it's not to add more pressure, but to offer support
0:39
when things feel heavy. In this episode, Doctor Naomi
0:42
Gibson explores how couples can navigate conflict while
0:45
parenting, communicate more clearly, and avoid the quiet
0:48
build up of resentment that so often shows up during demanding
0:52
seasons. Because compromise isn't about
0:55
meeting in the middle, it's about building something
0:57
together, especially when life feels full and demanding.
1:02
This episode is here to help things feel a little steadier, a
1:06
little kinder, and a little more connected as the year comes to a
1:10
close. Hi everyone, and welcome back to
1:16
Damn Parenting, your English speaking parenting podcast from
1:19
Amsterdam. And we are your hosts, Marvin
1:21
and Eva. And today we have doctor Naomi
1:25
Gibson with us. Hi Naomi.
1:27
Hello. Because we are heading into the
1:30
festive season where of course, there's lots of cheer, but also
1:34
lots of tension between couples and parents because there's lots
1:39
of different views on how should we set up things?
1:42
How should things be organized? What are we buying?
1:45
Like all the things that come with the festive season, So we
1:48
thought it is a good time to check in about compromise.
1:51
And what are strategies that we as parents, we as a couple can
1:55
take to find a middle ground when we are standing in our
2:00
corners screaming at each other that we want to have it that way
2:03
because this is how we want to do it and that's how it's always
2:06
been done in our families in whatever context and
2:09
circumstances. So we thought, how can we get
2:12
closer together again? How can we find a compromise
2:15
that is working for both parties?
2:17
And also, if then we involve the third party, the child, and find
2:21
a compromise around their needs. Even I were just sitting there
2:25
like, yes, this is a topic that we need help with.
2:28
And we thought this is a topic that Naomi should come on and
2:32
give us a little bit more professional insight and
2:34
professional strategy so we're not blabbering our heads off and
2:38
at the end of the day, still screaming at each other from our
2:41
corners. So what are the best strategies
2:44
to keep saying to find a third solution when we are just in our
2:49
world, in our reality, and there is very little, let's say,
2:54
openness to a different solution than we might have envisioned?
2:58
Where's it start? I think first let's try and
3:03
actually take a step back to understanding what compromise
3:05
really is in relationships. So why don't we what what does
3:09
healthy compromise look like in a relationship?
3:11
I guess like, especially when we're like a partner, you know,
3:14
may feel like there's shouldering more of the
3:15
responsibility, you know, the default parents, the household
3:19
management, you know, that kind of an angle.
3:21
We can often think in relationships that we're sort of
3:24
trying to be the same maybe, or that could be a the wish or a
3:27
desire to sort of get on the same team.
3:29
But actually you're whoever you are, you are two unique
3:33
individuals coming into a relationship with unique
3:36
backgrounds, unique values, unique ways of managing tension,
3:40
communication and things. So I think compromise is at its
3:43
core sort of understanding that that you are different people
3:47
and how can you get to a shared kind of goal or understanding or
3:52
way forward as different people? Would that be how you would sort
3:55
of think about compromise? I think honestly, it's a bit
3:58
refreshing to kind of be like, Oh yeah, I think this is a
4:00
moment that we, anyone listening, should just kind of
4:03
stop and be like, Oh yeah, we are two very different people.
4:05
We have two very different backgrounds, maybe even cultures
4:08
or whatever it might be. And that our own experiences
4:11
build up, make us receive situations and experiences
4:15
differently than another person. And I think sometimes we do need
4:18
a reminder on that. Yeah, you can be in exactly the
4:20
same room and situation with your partner, and maybe your kid
4:24
does something and you might experience it really differently
4:26
based on how much sleep you've had, how stressed you are, what
4:30
your week's been like, what your experiences of being a kid were
4:34
like. All of those things are going to
4:35
make it being seen through your individual lens.
4:38
And then I think what happens then in kind of conflicts or
4:40
times when compromise feels difficult is if you hold only
4:44
too tightly onto your truth and your kind of way of seeing
4:46
things and then might struggle to see your partners, and then
4:49
compromise just feels like it's losing.
4:52
Compromising can sometimes feel like, oh, I've lost this because
4:54
I've had to let it go. Whereas true compromise I think
4:57
is, yeah, being able to sort of take all that is there their
5:01
point of view, your point of view, the situation, other
5:03
needs, and kind of find a place that feels right for both
5:07
people. So no, nobody wins or loses.
5:09
Your team wins your parenting couple.
5:13
I think this is also shifting the view again from how can I
5:17
see the other view as a resource?
5:20
So really saying, all right, I have my view, you have your view
5:24
and let's not view it as conflict, but put it all on the
5:27
table. And what are our collective
5:29
resources that we have together now?
5:31
And how can we now build the third solution out of our 2
5:35
views? And I think this when you said
5:37
you are a team and you are an individual, that immediately
5:40
sparked and yeah, the thought of, Oh yes.
5:42
So I can see a resource and I can see they have something
5:47
extra or they have something very different that I have not
5:49
thought of. And instead of seeing as I have
5:52
not thought of, and that's why it's bad or that's why it's not
5:55
something for me seeing it as I have not thought of and great
6:00
that they have. So I can get another point of
6:03
view on this situation and really see it as a resource
6:06
instead of yeah, conflict. Yeah.
6:09
And that takes some vulnerability, doesn't it, To be
6:11
able to know to hold your position, maybe, but also know
6:15
that it's not the only way of doing things, or it's not
6:17
necessarily right or wrong. It can also, it can also lift a
6:21
lot of pressure knowing that I don't have to have the golden
6:25
solution or I don't have to do this alone, but I can rely on
6:30
the other resource. I can rely on the other point of
6:32
view and I can, yeah, I don't have to do everything myself and
6:36
come up with the perfect solution myself because I do
6:38
have another partner. I can just discuss it as oh this
6:41
is my view and I see it's not working.
6:44
What what is your idea on it? Can I actually ask, how do you
6:48
differentiate between compromise and a sacrifice?
6:51
Yeah. It's that's quite nuanced
6:54
because often when you compromise, it can feel like
6:56
you're sacrificing things. I think I would come down to,
7:00
yeah, sort of the core values, the things that you find
7:03
important. And here's me talking about
7:04
values again. But I think it's important.
7:07
And then like when you're compromising, you probably won't
7:11
compromise on those things or it will feel like too much of a
7:14
loss if you do so. I don't know.
7:16
Let's think of a parenting dilemma, maybe.
7:18
No plastic toys in the house. Fine, yeah, Although that's
7:21
probably not a value unless that's, yeah, that might be more
7:24
like a rule or a preference or something.
7:26
But maybe a value is, I don't know, try not to shout in front
7:30
of the kids or something that feels like quite core important
7:33
to you because maybe your parents did lots of shouting and
7:35
it felt frightening or something like that then.
7:37
And if you keep sacrificing on those core values and keep sort
7:41
of saying keep getting into fights perhaps, or keep, you
7:43
know, keep sort of sacrificing, then it isn't a compromise.
7:46
Whereas it might, yeah, maybe shouting is not such a good
7:49
example. What could be a parenting
7:50
dilemma that can be compromised? I mean, probably when parents
7:53
have different ways of approaching child discipline in
7:56
some way, there's often a sort of a values debate.
7:59
And it might be that a compromise is to.
8:02
Yeah, maybe when you're a kid, you've got lots of presents for
8:04
for Christmas and somebody else. It feels like we don't want to.
8:07
And they both kind of, yeah, these kind of values thing.
8:10
If your if your collective value is that you want your child to
8:12
feel like they're opening a nice present and they're loved and
8:15
appreciated, then if you go from that place and you probably can
8:18
from a compromise, maybe it's two presents instead of 10 or
8:21
something. Does that sort of make sense?
8:22
Yeah. Well, honestly, it just reminds
8:24
me of Santa Claus versus Santa Claus in this house.
8:26
So the compromise is basically, yeah, you're, you're kind of
8:29
saying, OK, you want to do this, I don't want to do as much.
8:32
So we're kind of going to agree on a bit fewer toys as it were,
8:35
or gifts. And the sacrifice would be the
8:38
fact that you're just, I was just about to say walked all
8:40
over and just ignored is basically what came straight
8:43
into my head there. And I feel that's quite harsh.
8:46
Yeah, and I think that's what it can sometimes feel like in a
8:48
that if like, OK, well, whatever, we'll just do what you
8:51
want. That would be a sacrifice rather
8:53
than a compromise. I want it this way.
8:55
You think something different? Where can we meet in the middle
8:57
that we, maybe it's not ideal for both of us, but you it is
9:01
ideal for your team, for the family or you know, ideal, maybe
9:04
not, but close to that. Another point, like at what
9:07
point does compromise become unhealthy or one sided if
9:11
they're always win? Not winning.
9:12
You see I'm using the wrong terminology here.
9:14
Straight off, Yeah, but I think you're you're.
9:17
Clocking into what? That's what it feels like
9:18
sometimes if the compromise is, if you feel like you're
9:21
constantly having to be the one to let go of those things and it
9:25
doesn't feel like compromise anymore.
9:26
So compromise is sort of, in its nature, kind of respectful of
9:29
the other person. And yeah, it's kind of saying
9:33
you matter to me and what you think matters and I think
9:36
something different, but we're not always going to do what I
9:39
want because that's not respectful either.
9:41
Sort of trying to find a a middle ground.
9:43
But yeah, sometimes that can feel like you'll be walks away
9:46
or there or that your needs aren't respected.
9:49
I. Think that has worked in my
9:51
household is that we also have separated a little bit the
9:55
compartment or like the departments of this is where I'm
9:58
willing to give more compromise from my side.
10:01
But this is something where I am not willing to budget off as
10:05
much. So I don't know when it comes to
10:07
giving presents or health or whatever.
10:10
Like so maybe also look at what are different fields that affect
10:15
your family life or your child where you say, oh, I do have my
10:19
core values and I do have my point of view, but I can live
10:23
better giving more compromise in this field and the other person
10:27
vice versa. So maybe also see that not
10:31
everything in life like has the same priorities.
10:34
And then maybe see where is priority for, for you.
10:38
Were you willing to. Yeah.
10:40
Or when it comes to like, I don't know, eating like dinner,
10:42
whatever. I'm willing to give more
10:44
compromise in this department or cleaning the house or organizing
10:48
or whatever it is. Like, where is the field where
10:51
everyone at the end of the day feels all right?
10:53
This is my discipline where I, I really want to stand my ground
10:57
and I really want to make sure this is what I or what I think
11:00
is working best. But then in the other
11:02
department, I can let a little bit more loose and give the
11:06
other partner a little bit more of that per hand if you want to.
11:09
Yeah, See, I'm also coming back into the per hand.
11:13
We all feel that way. Yeah, Yeah.
11:14
But maybe this is, yeah, this is something that has worked a
11:17
little bit better in our household where we said, all
11:20
right, you are more in charge of this department, I am more in
11:23
charge of this. And then we can find a little
11:25
bit more middle ground because then we feel we make a lot of
11:28
wins in this department and then we can it's easier to let a
11:31
little bit more loose in the other field, if that makes
11:34
sense. Yeah, definitely.
11:35
And you'll probably know what those things are without really,
11:39
it's probably a very natural choice which things feel easier
11:42
to compromise on, easier to negotiate on which which things
11:45
are like, yeah, no, I'm this is really important to me.
11:47
This is very cool to my values and the way I want to be in a
11:50
relationship or be as a parent or whatever would feel harder.
11:53
It's still impossible to compromise, but they're things
11:56
you might hold tighter onto. Speaking of this, working with
11:59
your strengths, I guess it will be so like in relationships
12:02
where one partner is the default parents because there usually is
12:04
1. So how can the other partner
12:06
become more aware of and engaged with those physical and
12:09
emotional work, the workloads and the overwhelming I guess
12:12
that the that specific partner is actually going to carry
12:15
Because this is what are the major stresses I feel most
12:18
parents go through. Yeah.
12:20
And this is when compromise can often feel like a sacrifice,
12:22
right? Yeah.
12:23
I mean, lots of couples and and mums actually who are like,
12:26
well, I, I've sacrificed maybe my career for this family or
12:30
maybe moved country or done all of these things.
12:32
And at that moment, it does feel like a sacrifice.
12:35
I think that often comes from the partner, let's say not not
12:40
having ways of sort of appreciating that load those
12:43
sacrifices, those compromises or or not sort of hearing your
12:47
partner. And that might be because, yeah,
12:49
let's say a mum in this example. So the mum doesn't find she
12:52
can't communicate that or they can't communicate together about
12:55
that. So she feels lonely and isolated
12:57
and like she's made this massive sacrifice.
12:59
And the dad might also be thinking that he's made lots of
13:02
sacrifices and maybe, you know, maybe he didn't want to move to
13:05
the Netherlands, but there was more money or more opportunities
13:07
or whatever. And they're both sort of against
13:10
each other in that sort of winning, losing model.
13:12
And actually, if they were both able with some vulnerability and
13:16
ways of, you know, communicating to say, like, I feel like this
13:19
and I feel like that and hear each other and respect each
13:22
other's point of view, they might feel like it was more of a
13:24
compromise, more of a sort of a respectful agreement for this
13:27
moment in time as parents. And yeah, I think that does
13:30
often come up even in the most sort of the couples that feel
13:33
like they're most kind of equal and fair.
13:36
Yeah. For mums who have born, borne a
13:38
baby, had had a pregnancy, had labour, breastfed, had
13:42
potentially more sleepless nights, all of that, then maybe
13:45
Grant have a second. Like it really can feel like
13:48
this is an unequal compromise. This is a massive sacrifice.
13:51
And I think as with any of these dilemmas, just giving it airtime
13:54
is important. Talking about it, saying how
13:57
you're how you're feeling. And that can often sort of
13:59
lessen that feeling of resentment and isolation.
14:02
This is going to be a tough question, I guess, hard to
14:05
answer or hard to, yeah, figure out, I guess.
14:08
Communication obviously is key in a relationship.
14:10
And what you just said, there is a case of the communication
14:12
between and being able to express your feeling, your
14:14
needs, your wants, whatever it might be with your partner.
14:16
What if that partner is not of the same mindset of like, Oh
14:20
yeah, I've got time or, you know, they're busy or they're
14:22
stressed or there's a lot of things going on.
14:24
So you as a couples therapist not to like, you know, be out
14:28
there kind of just like, Oh yeah, you know, this is what
14:31
everyone has to do. But obviously, you know, when I,
14:33
when I've spoken to people or whatever, like in my head, I'm
14:35
always thinking, go to a couple therapist, just sit down and
14:38
just talk. Like, I mean, that's what
14:39
they're there for. It's not that they're doing some
14:41
psychological weird stuff on your partner who's just, I don't
14:45
want to be here, but it's, it's just a case of giving space to
14:48
actually have a conversation, to have a mediator basically to
14:50
have that conversation. But how can we convince our
14:53
partner to enter into that? Because sometimes at home, you
14:57
try, try, try and try. And you're just now in the cycle
15:00
of just trying so much that you are now sacrificing.
15:02
It's not a compromise. You're in total sacrification.
15:05
I don't even know if that's a word.
15:06
Yeah, let's go with it. Sounds fun.
15:08
Let's go with it. But how can we actually get to
15:11
that conversation, to the communication channel then with
15:14
our partner if we're struggling to do it alone at home?
15:17
That's really tricky. And many Times Now there has
15:20
been 1 member of a partner that has really suggested couples
15:25
therapy and the others not keen or doesn't find value in it or
15:29
doesn't have time or doesn't want to.
15:31
And it's a waste of everybody's time.
15:33
It's a waste of the couple's time.
15:35
It feels hard to sort of, yeah, you just can't convince somebody
15:38
that something's a good idea. So I wouldn't start there.
15:40
I wouldn't. It has to be a sort of a joint
15:43
endeavour, a thing that like this is important to us as a
15:46
team, as a family, as a parent, as a couple, that you do that
15:49
and have these conversations and find ways to communicate.
15:51
And I think the most kind of success, if you want to call it
15:55
that, comes from these couples that don't know what the matter
15:58
is. They know that.
15:58
They just know that they don't feel good or they're fighting a
16:01
lot or, yeah, making lots of sacrifice.
16:04
But they both think that it's important to do something
16:06
different. And then that's like a safe
16:08
grounding to then try and do something different rather than
16:11
one member of the couple feeling sort of forced or like they
16:14
don't want to do it or they don't find value.
16:16
So yeah, that's tricky. So then starting those
16:19
conversations and doing that work to even start that in the
16:22
1st place can be really hard. I don't have a magic kind of
16:25
bullet to to solve that. I think it's comes from a place
16:29
of trying as hard as you can to drop your defenses and be more
16:32
vulnerable with your partner and hoping that they return in kind
16:36
with that and they can talk about these things.
16:38
But yeah, it can be really difficult.
16:40
It's kind of refreshing to hear you also just kind of say you
16:43
can make the appointment, you can turn up, but if you're both
16:45
not actually be emotionally turning up as well for that
16:49
appointment to sit there and be open to give space to have this
16:51
communication, you're wasting everyone's time in that room
16:54
basically. Yeah.
16:56
And I wouldn't say it's necessarily a waste of time
16:57
because you're obviously in that hour you're committing to
16:59
thinking about yourself and that as a couple.
17:01
And that's that's important. But just I suppose if you're
17:03
going to make any long lasting changes, you need to be
17:07
committed and motivated to do that, which just would be the
17:09
same in individual therapy too, right?
17:11
You have to notice something is afoot and want to kind of change
17:14
it and feel willing to do something different to how
17:16
you've always he's done things. But it's different when you're
17:18
asking your partner to come with you to a therapist.
17:21
Whereas if you're going to a therapist, you're all in it and
17:23
you're like, I'm going to give it a go.
17:24
But if you're asking your partner to come with you, it's
17:26
just something in me that makes me kind of think that the
17:27
partner's going to be a bit like, you know, there's nothing
17:30
wrong with me. I don't need to do this, you
17:32
know, because there is that mindset with certain people.
17:35
So you're like, it's nothing to do with you being broken.
17:37
It's just for us to actually communicate.
17:39
Yeah, and I would say there's nothing wrong with anyone.
17:42
Like there's not. It's not that somebody's broken
17:43
and needs fixed, although sometimes as a couples of
17:46
therapy do do get sort of recruited as a therapist to do
17:50
that. And my role is to remain kind of
17:52
neutral one to yeah, take each side of things.
17:56
But quite often there will be a sense of like, yeah, she's
17:59
really like this or God, isn't he awful when he says that and
18:01
sort of trying to recruit you in.
18:03
But that's also interesting to that's why.
18:05
We got friends, Friend. Yeah, yeah.
18:08
So this conversation basically came about where myself and Mary
18:11
were having a chat and one of the things we were talking about
18:14
was some people we've met or we've had the discussion with
18:17
kind of created. The question that I'll ask now
18:20
is like when we talk about the social events and sharing time
18:23
together, how can couples create balance when one partner has a
18:27
higher social need or desire or appetite and expects the other
18:32
tool to attend these events? When the other partner, usually
18:36
the default parent, usually the mother as it would be, they
18:38
still feel overwhelmed, disinterested, not even feeling
18:41
themselves as well having maybe given birth or just still
18:45
entering the matrices period. Is there a way that we can,
18:48
yeah, help ourselves to be able to communicate this, to have an
18:52
understanding and to create this equal balance that it's yeah,
18:56
you know, you do you is nearly what I would say.
18:59
So this is an example where one parent wants to do more social
19:03
things the other doesn't. Compromise is not necessarily
19:07
saying that the parent who doesn't has to all the time, and
19:10
nor is it saying that the parent that does doesn't have to.
19:13
It's somewhere in the middle that might be like, yeah, I'm
19:16
going to come to that thing on Saturday, but let me tell you,
19:18
I'm really tired. So you can go to that thing on
19:19
Saturday. Or what's really important for
19:23
me is that we have a quiet weekend, not doing too much.
19:26
Can you sit this one out with me and we'll have a quiet weekend
19:29
and go to this thing next time? Like, that would be more what
19:32
compromise is. So it's sort of, yeah, taking
19:35
both people's needs and both people's wishes and finding
19:38
somewhere in the middle that it might be that one person who
19:42
doesn't want to do that and they want the person to stay with
19:45
them. But actually, the thing they're
19:46
going to be missing is really important.
19:47
They're going to see a friend they haven't seen for ages,
19:49
blah, blah, blah. Well, then they can compromise
19:51
on on that in a sense and say, well, actually this, this thing
19:53
is really important, but I'll miss that one next week or it's
19:56
also kind of. Like opening up the
19:58
investigation a little bit more if if I hear this partner
20:02
doesn't want to go out and instead of saying, but you have
20:06
to go out or it is really important to me, like asking
20:08
them, what does it make it so hard for you to go out?
20:11
And there's a lot of reasons. Maybe for me, sometimes it is
20:14
that I just don't like these people.
20:16
I would love to go out, but I just don't like these people or
20:19
I just don't like. Like the place or I've been up
20:21
all week because we're potty training at night and I've been
20:25
up three times a night. Like just investigate a little
20:28
bit more and then find the compromise on that ground and
20:32
asking how can I support you so you feel more in the mood of
20:36
coming? Because it's really important
20:37
for me because I feel proud coming there with you because I
20:41
want to show everyone that we're together.
20:42
Like also sharing more of your intention why you want the other
20:47
partner to come, but also investigating more why the other
20:50
partner doesn't want to come and then start a conversation from
20:53
there. How can we help each other out
20:55
here instead of I want you to come, but I don't want to come.
20:58
Yeah. Yeah.
20:58
So sort of having a. Generosity and a curiosity with
21:01
each other that's that's exactly that kind of investigating this
21:05
kind of stems. From A Real Housewives of
21:07
Beverly Hills, PK and Jerry start separating because she had
21:11
her babies. And so he's like, yeah, we were
21:13
the Bonnie and Clyde. We used to always go out and
21:15
party or whatever like that. And now they're separating
21:17
because they don't do that anymore.
21:19
And it was like seeing that on TV and hearing them kind of talk
21:21
about it. I was kind of like, yeah, that
21:22
happens to a lot of us. I can even probably say it from
21:25
behalf of my partner, myself. It's a case of, yeah, since
21:28
becoming a mom, I have no interest and I don't have the
21:31
energy equally. And I.
21:32
Yeah, I've still like trying to even settle into as well still,
21:36
I think in my head and I don't know, everything shifted.
21:39
It's the whole matrices thing is and I'm still trying to find my
21:41
ground, I guess at the moment. So yeah, that's where kind of
21:44
this was coming about, was just kind of being thinking like this
21:47
is one of the struggles is people still want to go out and
21:50
socialize. Yes, I'm a parent, but also I'm
21:52
a still person. So it's a case of trying to find
21:54
the compromise, I guess around that.
21:56
Are there any tools or approaches then that can help
21:58
partners assess when they can say yes to something for the
22:01
other person and when to set their boundaries?
22:04
I think I would. Less tools, but more kind of
22:07
going on a, a gut feeling, a kind of a core values feeling,
22:12
which we often we spoke about before, haven't we?
22:14
You sort of know what those are. And if that might feel like if
22:17
you were to compromise on that, it would be a sacrifice.
22:20
Yeah. Being vulnerable with yourself
22:22
and reflective with yourself and then also with your with your
22:25
partner. Just trying to think of a good
22:26
kind of parenting dilemma that comes up where you might have to
22:29
do this. Have you got any ideas?
22:31
I mean, I guess I. Could give my own example where
22:33
the last month a friend, friends of ours got married and like
22:37
literally we, we don't have any babysitters.
22:39
Oma comes to babysit. I think that was her fourth time
22:42
coming. And it didn't work the time
22:43
before. And I honestly to that morning
22:46
was even still sitting there going, I, I don't want to go.
22:49
Like I just, I still don't feel like myself.
22:51
I have no clothes to wear. I'm really not in the mood to
22:54
sit in a whole Dutch environment.
22:55
You know, it's going to be a whole day.
22:57
I have to hire a car to drive into the middle of nowhere.
22:59
And I just was like, I just don't want to do this.
23:01
But like you said, the whole compromise was taking a
23:03
different perspective. I know so that I don't go out or
23:06
do anything anyway, it is our friend's wedding.
23:08
You know, it's not just a case of going out for dinner.
23:10
This is a special occasion. I was like, I had to pull myself
23:13
together to be like, I have to do this for my relationship as
23:16
well and also to support our friends, you know, entering into
23:20
this wonderful world of marriage.
23:23
There's probably. Something in your in your gut, a
23:25
sort of a felt sense of yeah, being a good friend perhaps, or
23:28
supporting people through good through these important moments,
23:31
these transitions or something that felt like, OK, I don't want
23:34
to do this and this feels really hard and don't have clothes,
23:36
blah, blah, blah. But actually then let that
23:38
feeling sort of propel you so that your value of being yeah,
23:42
being those things, being a good, a good friend.
23:44
I think it was more to do with my.
23:45
Partner, my husband because I just I think it was just pure
23:48
guilt, the fact that we don't do much or go out and I just
23:51
thought I have to do this because yeah, I haven't
23:53
compromised on anything else. I think is the only way to do.
23:56
It's important to him. Yes, and he wants to do that.
23:59
Yeah. And sometimes if it doesn't feel
24:01
too much like a sacrifice, that can feel like a good thing in a
24:03
partnership like that, you can make these compromises for your
24:08
for your partner if it's something that's really
24:10
important to them. I think it's also a case.
24:12
Of I feel so like wrapped up in a bubble of comfort of kind of
24:15
like, I can always say no and he's just going to accept it and
24:18
I can just stay cozy at home and wrapped up and I don't have to
24:20
do anything. And I'm, when you get used to
24:22
it, it becomes part of your routine, your habitual like
24:25
nature. And it was also just that whole
24:28
thing of, oh, I'm going to actually have to crack out of
24:29
this and step side as well. And that was also a terrifying
24:33
aspect. Yeah.
24:34
But I. Think it's also.
24:35
The case of that we need to communicate when we are doing
24:39
compromises because this is also something that I have noticed
24:42
when you've said this before, Naomi, when you say, all right,
24:46
we'll just do it your way or whatever.
24:47
And you just brush it over. And then the other partner
24:50
doesn't even notice that you're doing a compromise right now.
24:53
But on your account, your compromise, compromise,
24:55
compromise. And your thing lists up and you
24:57
say done 10 compromises in the last two days, but the other
25:01
person doesn't even know because you just always said, all right,
25:05
we'll just do it that way. And they didn't even recognize
25:08
that you've been compromising the whole time.
25:10
And then this would be maybe vice versa.
25:12
Then even with your situation where your husband might have
25:15
said, all right, I'll compromise on this, she's not coming, She's
25:17
not coming. But you have notices at all,
25:20
right? He's fine with it.
25:20
He's fine with it. And actually he's been saying
25:23
we've been compromising the last three years.
25:25
So this is the one time I'm not. So really making this also.
25:29
Yeah, the communicating when you are compromising and
25:32
communicating how much of A compromise it is for you right
25:35
now. So the other partner really
25:37
notices and then has a more openness, I guess next time when
25:40
they remember, Oh yes, she's really like made this work and
25:44
she stepped out and I know it's been a struggle for her, so I'm
25:47
going to let this one fly or whatever.
25:48
So really communicating the times, but also the impact of
25:53
the compromise. I think it's important to really
25:55
get the other partner to to notice your work.
25:58
Yeah. And that.
25:59
Isn't in a sense of like I do everything that you want and you
26:04
never notice, but actually just in that very honest, vulnerable
26:06
way of just being like, no, actually this this week or this
26:09
month. There's been a few things I've
26:11
said yes to you that have felt like maybe they were nose and I
26:13
haven't really communicated that.
26:14
But yeah, let's talk about that because it doesn't feel so good
26:17
to compromise on those terms and to notice.
26:20
Yeah, it might have been that you've been saying yes because
26:21
actually those compromise moments are things that you can
26:24
flex on. They don't feel so crucial and
26:26
then there's others that do so going into.
26:29
Resentment I guess what role does empathy play in achieving
26:33
compromise and how can parents cultivated during disagreements
26:36
and how to divide responsibilities or managing
26:39
time so about. Empathy, it's what we've kind of
26:42
discussed so far, isn't it? It's saying like, I feel this
26:45
and I appreciate that you feel that or your experience tells
26:48
you this or whatever, and being able to put yourself in your
26:51
partner's shoes and then which is tough.
26:54
It is tough, yeah. Yeah, it's totally tough.
26:56
But there's lots of research on the couples that see themselves
27:00
as a team, you know, 2 individuals difference unique
27:03
but making up the team have more kind of satisfaction in that
27:06
relationship. They can compromise without
27:09
feeling like a loss. They know that they need to
27:12
invest time and effort into their team to feel good about
27:16
it. And sometimes that well, often
27:17
actually, that involves compromise.
27:19
And then you're like, your second bit of that question was
27:21
about tasks and yeah, how to divide the.
27:23
Responsibilities or managing time because again, this was a
27:25
conversation that myself and Marin had was I think the
27:28
example I gave was one of the partners had a lot of events for
27:32
work. And so it was a case of they
27:34
were going out and doing that quite a lot.
27:36
And the other partner was staying at home because, you
27:39
know, you can't find a babysitter.
27:40
I think most people can feel that pain or it was just they
27:43
just weren't interested in it. But when it came to play dates,
27:47
the default parent had to do all that.
27:50
I'm not going to swear play dates because they're the ones
27:52
doing it every afternoon, like during, like, from, you know,
27:56
Das, the minute the baby's born. They're the ones who are
27:59
arranging play dates. They're the ones who are
28:01
actually going out to all these spaces that we had an episode on
28:06
recently about where you can go out with your kids.
28:08
I mean, I know I've been to nearly every single one of them
28:10
because I'm like, yeah, I want to keep my child entertained.
28:13
I want to, you know, hopefully go out and socialize or
28:16
whatever. But The thing is, the other
28:18
parent is like, oh, but you're doing that, so I don't have to
28:20
do that. And so then it all falls on us.
28:23
Yeah. And I think that.
28:24
Only might feel like a sacrifice rather than a compromise if it's
28:28
not appreciated or if it's not noticed or if it goes kind of
28:31
under the radar. I think if it's part of your
28:35
value as a parent to show your kid a nice time and to do fun
28:39
things with them. And that might involve going
28:41
having a play date or whatever. And it probably wouldn't feel
28:43
like a sacrifice, but it might if when you get home from a busy
28:46
day, your partner says, like, oh, what have you been doing
28:49
today? And why is the, I thought you're
28:51
going to take the dog for a walk or something?
28:53
That might feel like, oh God, I've sacrificed so much and I've
28:56
done this and I've done that and I'm still not being appreciated.
28:58
But if the same partner when you came home and they might have
29:00
also had a busy day and you can connect on the fact that you've
29:03
both had these different busy days.
29:05
And they say, yeah, I really appreciate you for taking little
29:07
whatever out to the park. It's exhausting, isn't it?
29:10
And you say, yeah, I really appreciate you've done like 4
29:12
events in the last month. That must be really tiring too.
29:14
And you can just, it's as simple as that.
29:16
That probably puts a real sort of yeah, a bomb on on that
29:20
feeling of of. And it can come just noticing
29:23
and appreciating. Well then, because.
29:25
Myself, I'm Aaron, really kind of got into this flow of this
29:27
conversation for a good 10 minutes.
29:29
I think. What if it's just the one parent
29:31
always doing it, though? Yeah, I think I would.
29:33
Wonder if that's a problem and if it's a problem, then to find
29:37
ways to remedy that in your relationship.
29:39
If it feels like, OK, I'm always the one that does the play
29:42
dates. Actually, I'd like for you to do
29:44
those sometimes and that would feel really helpful to our team.
29:46
If then that's met with, no, that's not possible because I
29:49
don't want to or you're better or I don't have time or
29:53
something, then that's another layer of having a conversation
29:55
about it. Well, actually, there's not
29:57
something special that makes somebody able to do play dates.
29:59
It's just that they think it's important have the time, have
30:02
the access to it. Yeah, again, there's not one
30:04
sort of golden bullet. I think it's just having these
30:06
layers of conversation and feeling able to do so and being
30:09
vulnerable and talking about these tricky things together.
30:13
The reason this episode? Was so important to us is just
30:15
because you know, it's those they say there's those five love
30:18
languages, you know, and The thing is, as we said, like like
30:21
we also have the additional things of generations, culture,
30:24
language. There's so many different layers
30:26
that come on top of this. So the communication aspect is
30:29
really hard to be able to express yourself to the other
30:34
partner in a language that they'll understand.
30:36
Hence going to a couple therapists to be able to sit
30:38
there and to have someone actually do the translation for
30:40
them. Because you could be saying the
30:42
exact same words, the therapist is able just to change a
30:45
different flow of it because you could sound aggressive or you
30:48
could be causing a trigger in your partner, you know, and
30:51
there's this whole thing. And that's kind of the biggest
30:52
problem I, I guess many people will have in this is, yeah,
30:56
understanding. And as you say, putting yourself
30:58
in the other person's shoes like that is one of the hardest
31:01
things to be going through, especially when the resentment
31:04
has already built, the anger, the frustration, everything is
31:06
escalated. You're already on the top of
31:08
Mount Everest and you feel how am I meant to put myself in the
31:11
other partners shoes when they're down in the ground
31:14
they're not doing that for. Me, I'm.
31:16
I'm not going to emphasize with them how dare they, you know,
31:18
all of these sort of, yeah, winning and losing narrative
31:21
comes up like what it does because as you say, you're on
31:23
top of that mountain ready for a a fight.
31:25
Yeah. So you can't possibly at that
31:27
point have a conversation where you're how you feel.
31:30
And the worst part is. They're in base camp and they
31:32
have no clue that you're on top of Mount Everest talking to
31:34
them. Yeah.
31:36
Climb back down or they've got a climb.
31:37
A big compromise for you to both meet half or hey and have this
31:40
discussion. So is it just a case?
31:42
Of like, I just feel like that's the sacrifice again, is like, I
31:46
have to calm down. Like they're not meeting me, you
31:49
know, they're not listening to me.
31:50
I immediately go straight into I have to sacrifice.
31:53
Then when I think about that, Yeah, and starting.
31:56
From that point is going to make you feel combative, isn't it?
31:58
It's not going to make you feel like you're on the same team.
32:00
Yeah, if I have to, I'm going to have to compromise and I'm going
32:03
to have to sacrifice again to help have this conversation with
32:06
you. Yeah, it's difficult.
32:08
What would you recommend? Them to like how to like
32:11
physically because there's a physical, there's an emotional,
32:13
there's a mantle, there's a spiritual aspect of having so
32:17
much. Is there something you can
32:19
recommend then that people can kind of say, look, try this
32:21
before you even open up your mouth to start conversing I
32:24
think. To be at a place where you can
32:26
compromise, you both need to be vulnerable.
32:28
You need to be able to have that empathy, step into this other
32:30
person's shoes, like all of that.
32:32
So that is not going to happen in the heat of the moment.
32:34
The compromise that might happen there would probably be like, oh
32:37
fuck it, I'll do what you say or something, which is a sacrifice
32:39
as we've said. So maybe it's about kind of
32:42
coming back to it, calming down, calming down your body, doing
32:44
some exercise, having a cup of tea, whatever it is, and then
32:47
being like, I'm karma now. And I really do want to talk to
32:50
you about this thing that feels important to me or yeah, to take
32:54
that playdeck, playdeck example. I'm just a bit exhausted of
32:56
this. And I would like you to notice
32:58
that I am feeling this way. And I want to tell you about it.
33:01
And I want to hear about how we can make a new plan for the next
33:05
week or months. And when you're able to be calm
33:09
about it, which is difficult. You you're then able to talk and
33:12
think a bit more, and so more likely to make a compromise
33:16
rather than a argumentative argumentative sacrifice.
33:20
Most of the. Time people are going to be
33:21
like, well, you know, we only really have our evenings because
33:24
our weekends were usually with our kids.
33:26
Do you think an evening is a good time to sit down as a
33:29
couple to kind of be like, OK, let's like, let's try and chat
33:32
this out the kids are in bed, you know we've got a couple
33:34
hours before we're going to go to bed.
33:35
Is that actually a good time? Because I feel like you need to
33:38
be in a different setting or something.
33:40
Like I, I don't know why, but I just just feel like if you're in
33:42
your own home and your kitchen is a complete mess and you know,
33:45
the kids, like everything's a mess and you're going to sit
33:47
there And then I feel like you're just going to visually
33:49
sleep everything. That is going to help build up
33:51
that resentment once more when you try and start this
33:54
conversation again. Yeah, I mean.
33:56
There's lots of anecdotal evidence at least about people
33:58
being able to have more or couples having harder
34:01
conversations, like when they're in the car or walking or like
34:05
somewhere different that yeah, because there's a different
34:07
context, but they're also sort of doing something together in
34:10
travelling somewhere there or having a a leisurely time.
34:14
And then difficult things feel less kind of oppressive.
34:17
But yeah, absolutely. If it's important to you, bring
34:19
it up in the evenings. I think I would come from the
34:21
idea of like, if something's important to you, it's important
34:23
to talk about, even if that might, you might have to
34:25
renegotiate a time. You know, maybe you want to talk
34:27
in the evening, but your partner's had a really hard day
34:30
and they don't want to. Then a compromise would be like,
34:32
OK, well, look, this is really important to me and this isn't
34:34
going anywhere. Can we talk on Saturday morning
34:36
or something? Or can we send kids to somewhere
34:38
or, you know, after daycare drop off, go for a coffee or
34:41
something, whatever. It will look different in your
34:43
in your families, But if it's important to you, it's important
34:46
to find time and that your partner as somebody who should
34:49
compromise with you, hopefully be able to prioritise that as
34:51
well. OK, well.
34:53
Especially if this often. Comes into your child or your
34:56
baby's needs as well, doesn't it?
34:58
And if that is both important to you as parents, which you know
35:01
it's likely to be, then compromising and finding a way
35:04
to talk about that with that child as the priority can be
35:07
really important to do and you probably would be able to find
35:10
the right moment. There's a lot there to.
35:12
Digest and I think it's a lot of work as well with the
35:15
resentments and with compromise. I think that's always a
35:18
continual piece of work that we're going to be doing for our
35:20
entire lives anyway, especially as the kids are young and as
35:23
they grow. Yeah, I think that's a lot to
35:25
digest for now. So thank you very much for,
35:28
yeah, helping give us a little bit more insight and
35:31
understanding into what compromises and we hope anyone
35:36
out there understands my mistake was going to a therapist with a
35:39
partner, dragging them, kicking it, screaming.
35:42
I think there's a waste of time for everyone.
35:43
But Naomi has corrected me to say, well, actually it's also an
35:46
option because it's extremely. Common.
35:50
That's not that's not I. Know I've heard I've heard now a
35:53
few times of the instances so I was kind of a bit surprised and
35:56
that's why all I hear was like oh this is a waste of time and
35:59
if one person thinks it's a waste of time that was the whole
36:01
thing of is will you compromise for me to join me on this and it
36:04
was a case of they did 3 gritted teeth and then they sat there in
36:08
silence and it was like well what's the point of doing this
36:10
and I think that was one of the biggest and most common things
36:13
I've heard so far but then this is also an.
36:15
Answer right? I mean, then this is also a view
36:18
on where things are, right? So maybe that's also helpful.
36:22
Maybe sometimes you need that painful confrontation and the
36:25
painful. All right, Even in this setting,
36:27
it's not possible. Then maybe this is also a
36:30
message. Yeah.
36:31
And. At the end of the day, you can't
36:33
force someone to have empathy nor force them to imagine
36:37
themselves in your shoes and your situation.
36:38
So we just got to learn how to regulate ourselves mainly, I
36:42
guess, which is what we're trying to do already with our
36:45
kids. Yes, it's a it's a struggle.
36:48
Sometimes, isn't it? Well, thank you so much.
36:50
Naomi, that was great. And I hope that we just started
36:53
the conversation a little bit more for you listener, and that
36:56
you can take something into your next discussion when you're
36:59
facing. So understanding how what we
37:02
pointed out the difference between sacrificing and
37:04
compromising and asking yourself, what am I doing here
37:07
right now and where can we find a better middle ground?
37:10
And if you want to hear more from Naomi, we have enough
37:12
episodes with her already recorded on our Spotify account.
37:16
You can follow us there. Dan parenting podcast Instagram
37:19
account, Damn parenting podcast. Make sure that you like
37:22
subscribe to our accounts and also share this episode with
37:25
someone who you think is compromising a lot in their life
37:28
or someone who you think doesn't compromise a lot in their life
37:31
and can use a little bit more information about this part of
37:36
communication. With that, we will hear you on
37:38
the next episode. Bye.