Latest / WoT Spoilers / Wounds - Towers of Midnight chapter 38 - EP569

Transcript

Wounds - Towers of Midnight chapter 38 - EP569 · WoT Spoilers

• 0:12
  Speaker 1: This is the Wheel of Time Spoilers podcast.
• 0:22
  Speaker 2: But yeah, okay, so do you want to talk about
• 0:26
  Speaker 2: a different kind of work, exterminating the Black Ajah.
• 0:30
  Speaker 1: Yeah, let's continue on from our exciting battle last week
• 0:36
  Speaker 1: and smash the Black Aja right in its forsaken face.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: It's a good time.
• 0:41
  Speaker 2: Smash your pass, smash much.
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: Smash, very smash. Massana is my favorite of the foresaken Okay,
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: seeing her get taken down is bittersweet.
• 0:51
  Speaker 2: You just love a librarian. That's just like you are
• 0:54
  Speaker 2: so biased.
• 0:54
  Speaker 1: This is correct. I can't I have no defense. Yes,
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: I like the evil librarian.
• 1:00
  Speaker 2: Evil, I brain God.
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: Look, she just wants to be respected for her intellect
• 1:03
  Speaker 1: and left the fuck alone.
• 1:05
  Speaker 2: Like, that's not not all she wants.
• 1:08
  Speaker 1: That's all she wanted back before, yeah, three thousand years ago,
• 1:11
  Speaker 1: that's all she wanted right now.
• 1:13
  Speaker 2: The destruction of the White Tower, the dissillusion of the
• 1:18
  Speaker 2: center of power, the undermining of the central force, hell
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: design to hold up the side of light. Yeah, just
• 1:26
  Speaker 2: just a few things like that.
• 1:27
  Speaker 1: Look, she just wants to be left alone, and if
• 1:29
  Speaker 1: that means destroying the entire world to get some peace
• 1:32
  Speaker 1: and goddamn quiet, that's what she's gonna do.
• 1:34
  Speaker 2: She would totally be in that twilight zone all the
• 1:39
  Speaker 2: time in the world. Then she dropped her glasses.
• 1:43
  Speaker 1: Wounds, wounds, What are the wounds? Gowan's wounds, Poppers winds?
• 1:49
  Speaker 3: What wounds?
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I want to say Gowan's wounds the one that
• 1:53
  Speaker 2: get the ones that get healed.
• 1:54
  Speaker 1: But oh yeah, I guess Hopper's wounds are kind of
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: not fixed.
• 1:59
  Speaker 2: Let's see. Yeah, the only time wounds is mentioned in
• 2:02
  Speaker 2: this chapter is when well, I suppose also Paren's wounds, right,
• 2:07
  Speaker 2: because he can't be healed until he wakes up. So
• 2:09
  Speaker 2: both Gala and Paren are healed in this chapter.
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, gwaen and and Paren are both bleeding profusely
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: all over everything.
• 2:19
  Speaker 2: So okay, sure, it's like, what two things do these
• 2:22
  Speaker 2: povs have in common? Well, they both got injured. Okay,
• 2:25
  Speaker 2: call it wounds.
• 2:26
  Speaker 1: Okay, low hanging it's not even low hanging fruit. It's
• 2:29
  Speaker 1: just scraping the bottom of the barrel.
• 2:31
  Speaker 2: It's the simplest Child's like, what do these two things
• 2:34
  Speaker 2: have in common? Red? Okay call them red category right
• 2:38
  Speaker 2: like that? That's kind of how it feels to me.
• 2:40
  Speaker 2: Is it very just no real metaphysical meaning? Just like
• 2:43
  Speaker 2: a very descriptive word for the things that happen in
• 2:48
  Speaker 2: the chapter.
• 2:49
  Speaker 1: And the symbol is the forsaken snake for snaken, the
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: for snaken, Yes, the for snakean which I believe I've
• 2:55
  Speaker 1: been corrected that is a credit to Danny and Brett,
• 2:59
  Speaker 1: not Alli and Gus. I got it from Alien and guys,
• 3:01
  Speaker 1: but I believe Danny and Brought are the ones that
• 3:02
  Speaker 1: coined back. But that would indicate more of the black odds,
• 3:07
  Speaker 1: just stuff. But I mean, we've seen the symbol and
• 3:09
  Speaker 1: the title not be connected, so I'm trying to make
• 3:11
  Speaker 1: a connection that doesn't exist.
• 3:13
  Speaker 2: Listen to the Alley Gus, you know, versus Brett and Danny.
• 3:21
  Speaker 2: You know whatever, I don't worry about it. First time
• 3:23
  Speaker 2: reader podcasts are terrible, Like you shouldn't listen to those.
• 3:27
  Speaker 1: Unless it's about Dungeon Curler, Carl and us. Now, we
• 3:33
  Speaker 1: love our first time reader colleagues.
• 3:35
  Speaker 2: We didn't want to do I was kidding, But for now.
• 3:38
  Speaker 1: I guess I should read us into this because you know,
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: we left off in action last week, and so we're
• 3:44
  Speaker 1: going to start with action this week. Chapter thirty eight,
• 3:48
  Speaker 1: Spurts of Fire flashed through the dark hallways of the
• 3:51
  Speaker 1: White Tower, leaving trails of smoke that curled in the air.
• 3:54
  Speaker 1: Thick and pungent. People screamed and yelled and cursed. The
• 3:58
  Speaker 1: walls shook as blasts took the chips, and chunks of
• 4:01
  Speaker 1: rock sprayed off, weaves of air crafted for protection.
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: There.
• 4:05
  Speaker 1: Agwaine noted a place where several black sisters were loving
• 4:08
  Speaker 1: fire down the hallway. Evanellen was there. Igwayin sent herself
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: into the room next to the one where they were standing.
• 4:14
  Speaker 1: She could hear them on the other side of the wall.
• 4:17
  Speaker 1: She opened her hands and released a powerful blast of
• 4:19
  Speaker 1: earth and fired directly at the wall, blowing it outward.
• 4:23
  Speaker 1: The women beyond stumbled and fell, Evanellen collapsing bloodied. The
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: other woman was quick enough to send herself away. Igwaine
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: checks to see that Evanellen was dead.
• 4:33
  Speaker 4: She was.
• 4:34
  Speaker 1: Agwayne nodded with satisfaction. Evanellen was one of those she'd
• 4:37
  Speaker 1: been most eager to find. Now if she could only
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: track down Katerine or alfa Arin. I thought that was
• 4:43
  Speaker 1: a good readon It's almost like at the beginning, you
• 4:47
  Speaker 1: can't quite tell if it's going to be parent or
• 4:49
  Speaker 1: Agwain because the last thing we left on the last
• 4:51
  Speaker 1: chapter is him like plunging into a nightmare in the tower,
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: so like this could be that, and then it turns
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: into channeling. You're not going to know weh're back with
• 4:59
  Speaker 1: Agwain and this this is her just systematically taking out minions,
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: grinding on the XP of this level without actually getting
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: to the neighborhood boss. Sorry, what books are we talking about?
• 5:12
  Speaker 2: Stop it, We're talking about these Avan Yellen, Avan Yellen. Wow,
• 5:17
  Speaker 2: that's a hard.
• 5:18
  Speaker 1: Evan Ellen, I believe is how the books say it,
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: the audiobooks say it.
• 5:21
  Speaker 2: Okay, thank you. Evan Ellen is one of the few
• 5:25
  Speaker 2: black a Jack who escaped Varians clutches. She's not in
• 5:28
  Speaker 2: the book and was revealed because she fled the White
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: Tower to get away from Agwayine's reswearing.
• 5:36
  Speaker 1: She's one of the three. I think Agwain says it's three.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: So that's why she's particularly eager to take her out
• 5:42
  Speaker 2: because she was one of the ones who actually escaped
• 5:45
  Speaker 2: from her questioning and wasn't in Varren's book, and so
• 5:48
  Speaker 2: she's like, oh, this was one that was like a
• 5:50
  Speaker 2: super snake.
• 5:51
  Speaker 1: Right, She like even escaped Varian's net and so like
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: this punch in the face is for Varren. We're completing
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: that list exactly.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: Is a hunter a punching that list? One might say, yes.
• 6:03
  Speaker 1: Yes, very thoroughly. And she's still really relying on power here.
• 6:07
  Speaker 1: That was something I was really paying attention to throughout
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: this whole chapter is when does she use power and
• 6:11
  Speaker 1: when does she use her mind? Because she's overreliant on power,
• 6:14
  Speaker 1: although she does think about how there is a both and.
• 6:17
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm hmm. And again this is this is one
• 6:20
  Speaker 2: of those lessons that I'm like, come on, she's learned
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: this so many times. Did you really need paren to
• 6:26
  Speaker 2: like do the thing in front of her for her
• 6:28
  Speaker 2: to be like, oh, yeah, that's right, you can use
• 6:32
  Speaker 2: your mind. And I'm just like, come on, World of Dreams,
• 6:35
  Speaker 2: using your mind, You've mastered this so well.
• 6:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, it is like a hard test of those skills.
• 6:42
  Speaker 1: But yeah, her feeling surprised by the knowledge feels a
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: little bit regressive. It should be more like, god, damn,
• 6:48
  Speaker 1: I really did learn that lesson. I really can level
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: up my skills now that I know what I'm doing. Yeah,
• 6:54
  Speaker 1: the surprise is a little.
• 6:55
  Speaker 2: Misplaced, right right. It feels like she should just be like, oh, yeah,
• 6:59
  Speaker 2: I should be doing more of that, right.
• 7:00
  Speaker 1: Oh well, she turns into a wise one in this chapter,
• 7:02
  Speaker 1: so you know she's good.
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: That is pretty cool. So she encounters this first fake Messana,
• 7:09
  Speaker 2: which is Alviren.
• 7:11
  Speaker 1: This is Maska mirrors got put on her.
• 7:13
  Speaker 2: No, not Alviren, Katerine, right.
• 7:16
  Speaker 1: Oh, you're right. I confuse the two of them a
• 7:19
  Speaker 1: lot for some reason. But yes, this is the one
• 7:21
  Speaker 1: that Massana put the mask of mirrors on them so
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: that she would have a decoy just running around in
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: front of her essentially.
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: And yeah, so this is sort of this. You're like,
• 7:31
  Speaker 2: oh my god, she kicks Messana's ass and you're like, oh, no,
• 7:33
  Speaker 2: fake out.
• 7:34
  Speaker 1: I know it's a good fake out. It's a reason
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: it fake out. Like Massana is good at the thinking
• 7:39
  Speaker 1: three steps ahead on the battle, and she's like, hmm,
• 7:42
  Speaker 1: I'm going to get closer to Agwaine. Therefore I'm going
• 7:45
  Speaker 1: to need to increase my subtrifusion, my camouflage, and so
• 7:49
  Speaker 1: that way I can see Aguaine's move when she thinks
• 7:52
  Speaker 1: she's getting me, and that's the perfect moment to strike.
• 7:54
  Speaker 1: She's smart, I mean, as it says here, like Saaran's
• 7:57
  Speaker 1: research had been correct. Like, Massana is not backing away
• 8:00
  Speaker 1: from this fight. She's confident in her ability to keep pushing.
• 8:04
  Speaker 2: It on one level, yes, but also because she can't.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: Right well, she could have aborted the mission.
• 8:12
  Speaker 2: She could have, but she didn't. You know, her goal
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: was actually to flee, to take this somewhere else, right,
• 8:17
  Speaker 2: to lure her somewhere else, and she couldn't do it
• 8:21
  Speaker 2: because of the dome. So and I thought that was
• 8:23
  Speaker 2: actually kind of an ironic statement because I'm like, she couldn't.
• 8:28
  Speaker 2: Is it that she didn't flee or that she her
• 8:30
  Speaker 2: plans got all fucked up because paren brought in the dome?
• 8:34
  Speaker 2: And that's why she's not fleeing, because she specifically states
• 8:36
  Speaker 2: I was going to take this fight somewhere a little
• 8:39
  Speaker 2: more convenient.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: But she decides to adapt to the conditions rather than
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: pulling back and trying again another day.
• 8:46
  Speaker 2: Right, right, right, right? So I mean that is sort
• 8:48
  Speaker 2: of the assessment is correct, and that even if the
• 8:51
  Speaker 2: circumstances changed, she's not necessarily going to just give up.
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Whereas like you know, as she says here, Mogeddion
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: absolutely would have pulled the plug.
• 8:58
  Speaker 2: Oh of course, Yeah, yeah, totally. I mean, we all
• 9:00
  Speaker 2: know mcgeeon's is coward just like ninety Wait.
• 9:05
  Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean, and I think we even see
• 9:06
  Speaker 1: a scene with Massana earlier where she's like, fine, I'll
• 9:09
  Speaker 1: make it work. I can yes and this because her
• 9:12
  Speaker 1: much like Grandall. At the end of this chapter, you know,
• 9:15
  Speaker 1: they're running out of options to not get toasted by
• 9:19
  Speaker 1: the dark one right there, really on their last chances,
• 9:22
  Speaker 1: so they kind of have to yes and it rather
• 9:25
  Speaker 1: than trying again in another day.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: I mean, it's literally Sindane's name.
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. She's there as a poster child for those
• 9:31
  Speaker 1: whole situation, right, and we see Grandal at the end
• 9:33
  Speaker 1: saying okay, well parents slipping out of the trap. Spring
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: it anyway?
• 9:36
  Speaker 2: Wait wait wait, is is Sindane last chance? Or is
• 9:39
  Speaker 2: it okay? Okay?
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: Or is it was Grendall's new name Hesselam without Forgiveness?
• 9:44
  Speaker 2: Well that's what that is, okay.
• 9:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Sindane is last chance. So you know you see
• 9:49
  Speaker 1: Missuna and Grandal both looking over at syndane land fear
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: going I'd better just continue powering through. I hope I
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: can stick the landing. There's a natural twenty in these
• 9:57
  Speaker 1: dice somewhere, I got it.
• 9:58
  Speaker 2: So there is this sort of text here where we
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: talk about channeling versus using your mind, and how for
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: some things it's just like imposing your will against a
• 10:09
  Speaker 2: lot of mass seems difficult, so in that case, channeling
• 10:12
  Speaker 2: seems to be better, which would argue against the whole
• 10:15
  Speaker 2: Channeling is just you know, in your mind until I
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: run reodd rule.
• 10:20
  Speaker 1: Unless it's a matter of belief, it's easier to believe
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: that you blew a wall up than that the wall
• 10:25
  Speaker 1: spontaneously exploded.
• 10:26
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm.
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: I know I added in scendiaries to it, so it's
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: okay for it to blow up. That is logical.
• 10:32
  Speaker 2: That's fair, that's fair. But yeah, I mean it does.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: It feels like channeling is something to me that's real.
• 10:38
  Speaker 1: It certainly implies that you're pulling.
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: In another power. Yeah, it certainly implies that. But at
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: the same time, like the fact that parent can then
• 10:45
  Speaker 2: just push the weave away is like once the realness
• 10:49
  Speaker 2: is there, it can still be like, yeah, it's it's crazy,
• 10:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, because I guess telling runiod is always a
• 10:56
  Speaker 2: mirror of the real world. But like, okay, see I
• 10:59
  Speaker 2: twist myself and I go back and forth on this.
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: Every time I think I'm on one side, I'm like,
• 11:03
  Speaker 2: but wait, there's more, and then I can think of
• 11:06
  Speaker 2: an argument for the other side. So I keep hesitating
• 11:09
  Speaker 2: to really come down on one side or the other
• 11:11
  Speaker 2: on this one, which I think is why it's a
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: fun debate to keep bringing up.
• 11:14
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's good to keep worrying at that one. I
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: do find it annoying here how she's like, wow, Parent
• 11:20
  Speaker 1: can do things. She hadn't been surprised by the things
• 11:24
  Speaker 1: he'd done so much as by the fact that he
• 11:26
  Speaker 1: had been.
• 11:26
  Speaker 2: The one that line, and I fucking hated that.
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: Rest of all, you were very impressed that anyone could
• 11:32
  Speaker 1: stop bailfire. It was the thing that he did that
• 11:34
  Speaker 1: you were impressed by, empirically and black and white all
• 11:36
  Speaker 1: on the page, but also like, is he not your friend,
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: like near sibling? Like what is I mean? I guess
• 11:42
  Speaker 1: it's a sibling level of degradation of someone's skills. But
• 11:47
  Speaker 1: it was just like, Parent's not a dummy, You've never
• 11:50
  Speaker 1: been one of his bullies. Why are you starting now?
• 11:53
  Speaker 2: And I thought we were this over, Like, well, he's
• 11:55
  Speaker 2: a man, so I'm surprise he can do anything at
• 11:57
  Speaker 2: all like bullshit, like we're past that.
• 12:00
  Speaker 1: I liked the line where she thinks about how he
• 12:02
  Speaker 1: looks a lot more mature and confident and strong because
• 12:05
  Speaker 1: he had had the same thought of her in that
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: moment of like, oh, you've grown up. So I like that,
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: And then she immediately follows up with but he's just
• 12:11
  Speaker 1: a stupid boy, how can he do anything?
• 12:13
  Speaker 2: Yeah, so I hate the line not only because I
• 12:17
  Speaker 2: don't like the line, but because it feels incongruent with
• 12:20
  Speaker 2: the thoughts around it.
• 12:21
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's odd, But I do like also when she,
• 12:25
  Speaker 1: you know, paragraph later, she's thinking about you know, power
• 12:28
  Speaker 1: versus thought, and she is an isodye and a dreamer.
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: She had to use both, just like parent is both
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: parent and young bull. And he's using the wolf and
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: the man and using both attributes. And they're being such
• 12:41
  Speaker 1: good parallels in so many ways in this fight.
• 12:44
  Speaker 2: And I do like this. The structure is really good, right,
• 12:47
  Speaker 2: the parallels between what they're doing and the way they're
• 12:50
  Speaker 2: sacrificing to take out the bad guy and the way
• 12:54
  Speaker 2: they do it through sheer will and cleverness. And I
• 12:57
  Speaker 2: don't know, I just it's a well done fight. It's
• 13:00
  Speaker 2: a well done fight on both sides. But again, sometimes
• 13:02
  Speaker 2: their thoughts. Their thoughts are the thing that I'm just like, oh, well,
• 13:07
  Speaker 2: there would be thinking that in that moment. That doesn't
• 13:10
  Speaker 2: seem right to Me's that's really I think where I
• 13:12
  Speaker 2: get hung up on sometimes because I'm just like, we've
• 13:14
  Speaker 2: had character development past these thoughts. Yeah.
• 13:19
  Speaker 1: Also, it would be really nice if she had these
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: questions for real in her heart, if she ever sent
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: a message to him to follow up right and be like, hey, buddy,
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: can we like meet over tea and talk about it? Like,
• 13:29
  Speaker 1: if she actually meant this, she would want to follow
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: up on it. But instead it's just a throwaway, disparaging thought.
• 13:35
  Speaker 2: For some When you said meet over tea, I thought
• 13:37
  Speaker 2: you were going to say, like meet over tar, like
• 13:39
  Speaker 2: meeting over the internet, like Zoom calls, like let's meet
• 13:42
  Speaker 2: over tea, and like because I'm short for teleron Riod.
• 13:46
  Speaker 1: I don't know why I picked tea as a beverage.
• 13:49
  Speaker 1: I don't think that's appropriate to either of their characters.
• 13:52
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. That's the only thing they drink. I mean,
• 13:54
  Speaker 2: parent like sometimes talks about how awkward it is to
• 13:58
  Speaker 2: have a tiny cup of tea in his hand. But
• 14:00
  Speaker 2: remember the whole thing with having more gasee serve him
• 14:03
  Speaker 2: tea and how he drink tea. Yeah, he drinks quite
• 14:06
  Speaker 2: a bit of tea.
• 14:07
  Speaker 1: Okay, yes, so I guess I do know why I
• 14:09
  Speaker 1: picked teas as a beverage anyway, Like, have you.
• 14:13
  Speaker 2: Not read Real time? Tea is the beverage? Tea is
• 14:16
  Speaker 2: the beverage. What do you mean? I don't know why
• 14:18
  Speaker 2: I picked tea? Like they even drink it after they
• 14:22
  Speaker 2: know fork root tea is a fucking poison for them, Like,
• 14:25
  Speaker 2: oh well, still gonna have my cup of tea, right,
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: fucking ill British. It might be the one thing that
• 14:34
  Speaker 2: can take us down, but we're definitely not going to
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: stop drinking tea.
• 14:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well, I mean yeah, that is the British Empire.
• 14:44
  Speaker 2: It's why we have the Boston Tea Party, because those
• 14:46
  Speaker 2: fuckers the one thing they understand is wasting tea. They're like,
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: oh god, we're going to war over that.
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: That That's exactly what that entire conflict was about. We
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: don't need to deep dive into the actual history. It
• 14:55
  Speaker 1: was about tea.
• 14:58
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean it was definitely like why that was
• 15:01
  Speaker 2: such an insult, right, Like it was we are wasting
• 15:03
  Speaker 2: tea because you're fucking British and.
• 15:05
  Speaker 1: Taxes mostly taxes, mostly taxes. But the choice of tea
• 15:11
  Speaker 1: does have a certain cultural knife.
• 15:12
  Speaker 2: There's a certain cultural like every yeah, there's a certain
• 15:15
  Speaker 2: culturalness to that, because I'm sure there were other products
• 15:19
  Speaker 2: that are being traded by England well, but tea and
• 15:23
  Speaker 2: specifically was like heavily heavily drank. So anyway, I don't
• 15:29
  Speaker 2: know the history well enough to go into that on
• 15:30
  Speaker 2: a podcast.
• 15:32
  Speaker 1: Nikola is a dumbass and is about to die.
• 15:35
  Speaker 2: Ugh, I really do feel like this was checking a
• 15:37
  Speaker 2: box though. Yeah. It was like because like her carelessness
• 15:42
  Speaker 2: had been foreshadowed so much, and I just thought it
• 15:45
  Speaker 2: would have more consequences other than being like, well, yep,
• 15:48
  Speaker 2: she's dead. She was irresponsible and that killed her. I
• 15:52
  Speaker 2: thought there'd be like consequences to that other than her
• 15:55
  Speaker 2: dying or like somehow the fight would go badly because
• 15:58
  Speaker 2: of it.
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: I kind of like it though, because she had main
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: character syndrome and even her death didn't matter. And that's
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: kind of like one of the bitter truths of armed
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: conflict is that if you go into it with main
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: character syndrome, odds are you won't even be a side character.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: You're just gonna be splattered at the corner of the
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: screen in the opening five minutes of the movie.
• 16:19
  Speaker 2: Part of me wants this to be a lesson for
• 16:21
  Speaker 2: a Gwain, and like, right, exactly, Tavere and you know
• 16:26
  Speaker 2: the Teverean biproxy that we talk about all the time,
• 16:28
  Speaker 2: and like, is she insulated from stuff because Rand needed her?
• 16:33
  Speaker 1: You know, it's it's a warning shot that like you
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: think you're hot shit and then the floor explodes under you.
• 16:39
  Speaker 2: Would she have been splattered very early on if not
• 16:41
  Speaker 2: for the Teverean biproxy because she went into this story
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: with main character syndrome. She wanted to be a hero.
• 16:49
  Speaker 2: She wanted to leave her town and be the new, biggest,
• 16:54
  Speaker 2: greatest thing.
• 16:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's okay when it's a Gwain, but it's
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: not okay when it's Nicol. Where's the logic in that?
• 16:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah?
• 17:00
  Speaker 5: Right?
• 17:00
  Speaker 2: Right?
• 17:00
  Speaker 1: So I like the meaninglessness of Nichola's death because it's
• 17:03
  Speaker 1: so just bitter and awful and yeah, maybe a grain
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: be a little more careful, ah, But also just like
• 17:10
  Speaker 1: how many other girls are going through and boys right
• 17:13
  Speaker 1: are going through this same kind of like, you know,
• 17:15
  Speaker 1: I'm gonna join the Hunt for the Horn and it's
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: going to be great, and they trip and fall and
• 17:19
  Speaker 1: break your neck in a ditch before they even get
• 17:21
  Speaker 1: out of the country, or I like that.
• 17:22
  Speaker 2: Gollin and Nicola would have made a better Oh.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: My god, oh my god.
• 17:29
  Speaker 2: Irresponsible ability squared.
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: I could bond over having main characters syndrome. Now you're delusional,
• 17:37
  Speaker 1: You're delusional.
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: What a Gwayn has this thick calendar of cylinder of
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: glass around her that seemed weird to me. Is that
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: something she.
• 17:57
  Speaker 1: Create bulletproof glass obviously.
• 17:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's something she's creating with Telerun Riod, not
• 18:02
  Speaker 2: with channeling, right, Yeah, so it seems like she's trying
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: to start to rely on that sort of thing.
• 18:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's trying to multitask, right, use the tele run
• 18:13
  Speaker 1: riod for basic world bendy stuff, and then use channeling
• 18:17
  Speaker 1: at the power for very specific applications like blowing people up.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: So we get this fight between Agwayne and fake Messana.
• 18:25
  Speaker 1: Yeah, Mulane gives her a quick heads up, and then
• 18:28
  Speaker 1: we have more exploding walls and we refer back to
• 18:33
  Speaker 1: last chapter when Bear had said foolish child. Your pattern
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: is obvious, right, the wise ones are really trying to
• 18:39
  Speaker 1: help Aquaene.
• 18:40
  Speaker 2: No, they're like eh, And that is Katherine totally clocked her.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: She was like, I got your pattern. I'm waiting for
• 18:47
  Speaker 2: you right right where I expect you to be.
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, totally. And then Aguaine uses her lesson from Parent,
• 18:53
  Speaker 1: and I think this is where I got the idea
• 18:55
  Speaker 1: that the bailfire bent around them, because here these you know,
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: weaves come flying at her and she thinks those will
• 19:02
  Speaker 1: not hit me, and they they bend around her. The
• 19:05
  Speaker 1: weaves shot forward and they bent around to Gwain, and
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: that's the moment in which she turns into a wise one.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: She gets the full wise one outfit. Because so I
• 19:12
  Speaker 1: think that's where I got the idea that there's bendiness
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: because in this instance, Agwayne does bend them. Parent absorb them,
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: but Agwaine bends them.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm a GWayne goes there is no spoon right like.
• 19:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, which I then wonder where those web where those
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: weaves like land because Parent absorbed the bailfire and made
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: it kill nothing, whereas Aguayne is redirecting them, so they're
• 19:32
  Speaker 1: going to hit something. But whatever I.
• 19:34
  Speaker 2: Mean in a lot of ways tell around Riod is
• 19:36
  Speaker 2: like a video game world because you can destroy shit,
• 19:38
  Speaker 2: and like because it just reverts to the way the
• 19:40
  Speaker 2: real world is. You don't kind of have to worry
• 19:42
  Speaker 2: about what you're destroying. It does. It's a nice way
• 19:46
  Speaker 2: to make consequence free battles that destroy a bunch of
• 19:50
  Speaker 2: shit without actually destroying a bunch.
• 19:53
  Speaker 1: Of shit, right right. And then in her moment of
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: Gloria's wise oneness, she has a spear and she uses
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: an IEO spear to take out Massana. It's fake Massana,
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: but it's still awesome the visual of her just like
• 20:05
  Speaker 1: suddenly going full Wisewood and then step and she does
• 20:09
  Speaker 1: take out Katherine, who is an important person to take out.
• 20:13
  Speaker 2: Right right, red a John right.
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: Yep yep, was the very brief intram mistress of Novices
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: right before Alida is unfortunate capture by John Chin.
• 20:23
  Speaker 2: I think it's interesting that the weave around her vanishes
• 20:25
  Speaker 2: as she dies because she's not the one maintaining the
• 20:27
  Speaker 2: weave Massahana is. So Massana must have dropped that weave
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: when she died.
• 20:32
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, because it's not like the weaves are like
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: attached to the life force or attached to the body
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: the meat suit. So yeah, I guess Massana sees the
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: blood and is like, Okay, well I'm gonna save that
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: energy for something else now.
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: Right, Because because I put in there, I was like, wait,
• 20:49
  Speaker 2: that shouldn't have dropped Masana's No, like Massana, if she
• 20:52
  Speaker 2: tied it off, that wouldn't have disappeared.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, so she but because she's right there, right,
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: she's following around in the shadows waiting for a Gwaine
• 20:59
  Speaker 1: to be vulnerable in that moment of triumph so she
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: can click an idam around her neck, which is honestly
• 21:07
  Speaker 1: good move. That was a really good move that almost worked.
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: Yeah, well, especially with Agwaine who has trauma around the
• 21:14
  Speaker 2: shan chan and being being captured, like that's a great
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: way to derail her.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like she knows right, Like and I said, I
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: who had never seen one of these, it might not
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: work on her as well. It would have been a
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: different contest of wills. But Agwayne has like trauma, she's
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: having flashbacks immediately, and that's not till I run real.
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: That's not Masana. That's a Gwain's own story.
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: And in a lot of ways, I think This scene
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: is almost like shut up fans who are like, well,
• 21:42
  Speaker 2: why didn't she just use the World of Dreams to
• 21:44
  Speaker 2: make the Adam disappear? And the answer is she could have,
• 21:47
  Speaker 2: she just didn't think about it until she did. Well
• 21:49
  Speaker 2: I'm talking about Mgedian.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Oh right, yeah, yeah.
• 21:53
  Speaker 2: Like why didn't Mogeddian just like make the Adam disappear?
• 21:56
  Speaker 2: And then there's the confusion where the Adam and the
• 21:57
  Speaker 2: dream is not the Adam the real one. And then
• 22:00
  Speaker 2: they went through this whole like Adam in the World
• 22:02
  Speaker 2: of Dreams made her drink the poison, then she was
• 22:05
  Speaker 2: affected by the poison or the potion in the real
• 22:08
  Speaker 2: world that made her pass out. Then they somehow forged
• 22:11
  Speaker 2: a wireless Adam out of the Silver Arrow before she
• 22:14
  Speaker 2: woke up and got the collar around her, and that
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: was off screen. They were able to invent an Adam
• 22:19
  Speaker 2: sort of overnight.
• 22:21
  Speaker 1: It was one of the most do x Macina moments
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: in this entire series.
• 22:25
  Speaker 2: It was it was definitely like, wait, where did they
• 22:27
  Speaker 2: get the aidon from?
• 22:28
  Speaker 4: They just they made the collar and duplicated the Adam
• 22:31
  Speaker 4: really quickly in the night before she woke up the
• 22:34
  Speaker 4: next morning found her body got it on her and
• 22:37
  Speaker 4: made her a servant all before anybody noticed, and that
• 22:41
  Speaker 4: was all off screen.
• 22:42
  Speaker 2: Yep, yep, yep happened yep. And that's the way it is, folks,
• 22:49
  Speaker 2: you know, like that's basically all we got out of that.
• 22:51
  Speaker 2: One don't have any other answer for you. You know, one
• 22:54
  Speaker 2: assumes they're grad students. They've got a lab somewhere, you know.
• 22:57
  Speaker 1: They they may have also like taken a couple of
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: days to do it and like just kept Massana like drugged.
• 23:02
  Speaker 2: And drugged off the top of the days.
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: Like we had a beador amount of handwaving that you
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: can fit a lot of different factors into because someone
• 23:10
  Speaker 1: was just like, nope, we're gonna deal with all this
• 23:12
  Speaker 1: loose ends by just not mm hmm.
• 23:14
  Speaker 2: Like maybe they did keep her under a shield for
• 23:16
  Speaker 2: a couple of days until they got that all sorted out, right.
• 23:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, We just didn't see it. And so yeah,
• 23:22
  Speaker 1: Masana takes her away back to her little stronghold in
• 23:27
  Speaker 1: the bedrock under the tower, and all varn is there
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: because yeah, she was not the one who was the decoy,
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: like she was probably the backup decoy. Probably if this
• 23:35
  Speaker 1: hadn't worked, Massana would have come back to grabbed all
• 23:37
  Speaker 1: var and I tried.
• 23:38
  Speaker 2: To get you know, maybe or something different, right.
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: But well maybe, Yeah, she is smart.
• 23:44
  Speaker 2: Just bond with me. I'm using your powers, right, that
• 23:46
  Speaker 2: sort of thing, right, Yeah, and I do love that,
• 23:49
  Speaker 2: Like this questioning is all like, wow, you know, where's
• 23:51
  Speaker 2: the device? And Gwen's like she never thinks it, but
• 23:54
  Speaker 2: she has no idea what device.
• 23:57
  Speaker 1: She's more confused by the dome than you. And it's
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: so funny too because Sanna gets Agwayne in here and
• 24:02
  Speaker 1: then sends Alvigaron off to say, call the battle off.
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: We're done. I've won. So the whole battle they start
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: retreating and then their general gets decapitated after claiming victory.
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: It's like you really pop the champagne on that too
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: early in.
• 24:17
  Speaker 2: It's definitely the uh, you're not in here with me,
• 24:20
  Speaker 2: I'm in here with you situation where it's like I've
• 24:23
  Speaker 2: got you now, and it's like, yeah, that's not the
• 24:25
  Speaker 2: win you think it is at.
• 24:26
  Speaker 1: This point, yeah, exactly.
• 24:29
  Speaker 2: And Agwayne is kind of like, oh, what if I
• 24:31
  Speaker 2: face something like this in my you know, this is
• 24:34
  Speaker 2: the whole point of being tested, as you know, an
• 24:37
  Speaker 2: I said, die so I would know what to do
• 24:39
  Speaker 2: in this situation and I wouldn't panic. And I'm like, yeah, exactly,
• 24:42
  Speaker 2: that's why you should have taken the test.
• 24:44
  Speaker 3: Yeah yeah.
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: She's like, well, because you didn't run yourself through this
• 24:48
  Speaker 1: in a sandbox hypothetical. Now you're going to have to
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: face the realist.
• 24:52
  Speaker 2: Version of it, right, right.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: But also I wonder if in her testing, if this
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: had happened, if that would have actually killed her, you know,
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: I wonder if like the reality of the stakes is
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: what allows her to power through, and if in the
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: dreams she would have just been taking the rules or
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: in the test, if she would have been taking the
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: eyes to die like test rules too seriously, and it
• 25:12
  Speaker 1: would have just defeated her and she would have like
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: not come out because.
• 25:15
  Speaker 2: This is the moment where she has to deal with
• 25:17
  Speaker 2: the shan Chan panic, right, This is this moment where like,
• 25:19
  Speaker 2: you have work taken captive, and like, you don't know
• 25:24
  Speaker 2: how that's going to affect you in a combat situation
• 25:26
  Speaker 2: until you deal with it. And she has to deal
• 25:28
  Speaker 2: with it in this moment and be like, Okay, the
• 25:31
  Speaker 2: panic of being recollared is not going to stop me
• 25:33
  Speaker 2: and imprison me from acting.
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: Yeah, because when she here, she thinks like, but this
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: is different, right, She's like, no, no, no, I can
• 25:41
  Speaker 1: handle anything and everything, not this, not this. This is
• 25:45
  Speaker 1: a line too far. And it's I truly question if
• 25:49
  Speaker 1: she would have survived this if she'd been in the test.
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: I think the depth of seriousness of it actually being
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: real is what allows her to, yeah, find the inner
• 25:58
  Speaker 1: fortitude to say no, it's not different actually, And.
• 26:01
  Speaker 2: Then she jedi, you know these are not the droids
• 26:04
  Speaker 2: you're looking for. This a dam is no longer here, right,
• 26:06
  Speaker 2: it just clicks and falls off.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And it's not even like when Rand accepts the pain,
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: and it just is like the overflowing cup, like she
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: stops the pain. She just is like, nope, I reject
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: its entire premise for existing, right.
• 26:20
  Speaker 2: I reject your reality and substitute my own.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: Yeah, basically she would prefer not to.
• 26:29
  Speaker 2: Thank you, Bartley.
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: And then we get just an amazing discussion because Massana
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: is not a mustache twirling blow hard. She's smart, and
• 26:41
  Speaker 1: so they talk their way into their final confrontation, rather
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: than waving their swords and yelling and come at me,
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: loose there, and she folds her arms and says huh,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: you're more practiced here than I thought. Like, that's how
• 26:54
  Speaker 1: the final confrontation opens up. Is a freaking conversation and
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: I love it.
• 26:58
  Speaker 2: And then there's the you know the bains. Oh you
• 27:00
  Speaker 2: think strife is your ally? Yeah, you are merely adopted
• 27:04
  Speaker 2: into strife. I was born into it, molded by it.
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: I didn't see peace until I was already a woman,
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: and by then it was nothing to me but boring.
• 27:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly.
• 27:16
  Speaker 4: Birth.
• 27:16
  Speaker 2: That makes Massana Batman in this situation.
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: But you know, Batman is not the hero.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: He's the billionaire. That means he can't be the hero.
• 27:26
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, he has money for systemic change and
• 27:28
  Speaker 1: instead he's using his fists. I'm just saying, but yeah.
• 27:33
  Speaker 1: So basically the conversation boils down to Masana saying I'm
• 27:37
  Speaker 1: older and wiser in the ways of all of this
• 27:40
  Speaker 1: than you, and Agwain says, let's unpack that. I'm not
• 27:44
  Speaker 1: just a child of this age. I am the current
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: living embodiment of an institution that has lasted since you
• 27:52
  Speaker 1: were put on ice. Like, we're actually not the same.
• 27:56
  Speaker 2: It's no, you fought a war, but you were raised
• 27:59
  Speaker 2: in you were raised and like how you were raised.
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: I was raised in a time of strife. Now, I'm like, okay,
• 28:04
  Speaker 2: the Two Rivers is not exactly like the worn torn countryside.
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: Of But what the Tower has survived. The Tower came
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: out of the ashes of the breaking. The Tower has
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: survived the world shrinking and being attacked by a shamel
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: every thousand years, right, Like the Tower has had had
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: a rough in a lot of ways. And she says
• 28:26
  Speaker 1: even here, like even to an extent, experience is irrelevant,
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: Like I am an institution, I am not a person,
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: and you don't have that. You're an avatar or you're
• 28:36
  Speaker 1: an agent of the dark One, but you're just some bitch,
• 28:39
  Speaker 1: you know.
• 28:41
  Speaker 2: Right, And I sit in the office of the amberln,
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: I'm you know, not just the person.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, she's a living goddess. Right, She's not just a priest.
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: She's the actual Like the spark is in me for
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: this lifetime. And Massanna does not have something of equal
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: import to push back with. She just has her own
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: sense of entitlement, which again, yeah, like you said, it's
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: from an age of indolence, of from an age of
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: quote unquote utopia, Like it's not the same.
• 29:11
  Speaker 2: Trust me, I grew up in a world that you
• 29:14
  Speaker 2: might call utopia and spoiled, and now I live in
• 29:16
  Speaker 2: this hell hole. It's not easy to deal with, you know.
• 29:23
  Speaker 2: I feel like these young kids are like, yeah, this
• 29:25
  Speaker 2: is you know, the Internet's always been this shitty and
• 29:27
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what, No, the Internet's a place of hope
• 29:30
  Speaker 2: and joy.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: Right right, Yeah totally.
• 29:35
  Speaker 2: But yeah, do you want to read The Breaking of Massana?
• 29:38
  Speaker 2: I think you should read that.
• 29:39
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so good because I love Agwain, I love Massana.
• 29:44
  Speaker 1: It's yeah, two women gazes matched. Agwain stopped breathing. She
• 29:50
  Speaker 1: did not need to breathe. All was focused on Massana.
• 29:54
  Speaker 1: Sweat trickled down Agwain's temples, every muscle in her body
• 29:57
  Speaker 1: tense as she pushed back against Massana's will. And I
• 30:00
  Speaker 1: GWayne knew that this woman, this creature, was an insignificant
• 30:05
  Speaker 1: insect shoving against an enormous mountain. That mountain would not move. Indeed,
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: shove against it too hard, and something snapped softly in
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: the room. Agwain breathed in with a gasp. As the
• 30:21
  Speaker 1: air returned to normal, Masana drops like a doll made
• 30:24
  Speaker 1: of strips of cloth. She hit the ground with her
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: eyes still open and a little bit of spittle drippled
• 30:30
  Speaker 1: from the corner of her mouth. It's just so soft.
• 30:37
  Speaker 2: Yeah. It reminds me a little bit of the fight
• 30:40
  Speaker 2: between Ninive and Mogetian in the Palace of Tanchiko when
• 30:45
  Speaker 2: they're just staring at each other and the maid goes
• 30:47
  Speaker 2: by and they're like straining you. Now, it's using the
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: one power to try and cut each other off, but
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: in a lot of ways, it's the just will against wills,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: silently staring at each other. No big effects, no big fireworks,
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: no you know rand alph or Asmodi and destroying the
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: rude in It's not them taking down you know, punching
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: holes in the tower with the power.
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it's so esoteric and subtle. It's down to
• 31:15
  Speaker 1: just this brain pretzel. It kind of reminds me of
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: that scene in The Sandman. Did you watch that? Yeah,
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: where he's battling with Gwendolyn Christi is the devil and
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: they're doing like I am a world, I am a snake,
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: I am space, I am hope. It's kind of like that.
• 31:32
  Speaker 1: It's these brain pretzels of like who can brain pretzel
• 31:36
  Speaker 1: the hardest? Just in the most esoteric and then it
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: just soft, little snap and the whole woman's intense career, mind,
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: everything she knew, everything she was, is just lost, just.
• 31:52
  Speaker 2: Like that brain broken. Like the reality is that you
• 31:58
  Speaker 2: don't exist anymore. How that becomes permanent? Like it kind
• 32:02
  Speaker 2: of reminds me of what Mogetian said she would do
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: do uh Burgida.
• 32:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, what she did do kind of briefly and then
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: put it back. And it's almost kind of like with
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Hopper dying. It's like you're dead dead, you lost yourself
• 32:18
  Speaker 1: in the dream.
• 32:20
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, That's that's always something I wonder about. It's
• 32:22
  Speaker 2: like if your mind's broken, like does your soul? I
• 32:24
  Speaker 2: feel like the mind breaking those a very physical thing,
• 32:26
  Speaker 2: and so when your soul's reborn, you get a new mind. Yeah.
• 32:30
  Speaker 2: I for me, the mind not working at least in
• 32:33
  Speaker 2: the real time is a very physical thing, whereas the
• 32:36
  Speaker 2: soul is a metaphysical thing. And so the soul goes
• 32:38
  Speaker 2: on and it can be in a whole body.
• 32:40
  Speaker 1: Well, I guess that is the question is is this
• 32:42
  Speaker 1: a soul wound or just a mind wound? Given that
• 32:44
  Speaker 1: it happened until I run reod, does it have propagation
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: fractures into her soul.
• 32:49
  Speaker 2: I don't think so, because I mean people who are
• 32:51
  Speaker 2: who die and till I run riod if they're dreaming,
• 32:54
  Speaker 2: just die in real life. Right, It's not like a
• 32:56
  Speaker 2: permanent soul death. Right, that's just like, yep, you know
• 32:59
  Speaker 2: you got you got into a nightmare and the nightmare
• 33:02
  Speaker 2: ended you. When you're over and you're dead, and like
• 33:04
  Speaker 2: that doesn't seem to be any special unless you're there physically.
• 33:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's fair.
• 33:09
  Speaker 2: Or and I don't think she's there physic We're not
• 33:11
  Speaker 2: sure about that. Actually, no, because she's dreaming, because we
• 33:15
  Speaker 2: know she wakes up the next morning.
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, they find her. They find her just drooling and
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: pissing herself in her bed, because that's all that's.
• 33:22
  Speaker 2: Left, Danielle. Yeah, but yeah, that's different.
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: So yeah, Gwyn kind of sits there and breathes for
• 33:30
  Speaker 1: a minute and then takes her prize back upstairs to
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: show to her teammates, and they go.
• 33:36
  Speaker 2: Holy, yeah, I saw someone who encountered something that broke
• 33:42
  Speaker 2: her mind. But it was probably, you know, a nightmare.
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: Or right, one assumes that this ideal that Bear talks
• 33:47
  Speaker 1: about was, yeah, just a nightmare.
• 33:48
  Speaker 2: Standards not the distortion and reality. Yeah, and then and
• 33:52
  Speaker 2: also like it wasn't like another person she came up against, right, Like,
• 33:56
  Speaker 2: I mean could have been I suppose, but.
• 33:58
  Speaker 1: We have no idea. But yes, this is something that
• 34:00
  Speaker 1: can happen other times. There are other things that could
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: break a person until I runriod And yeah, Amy says,
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: you know what we saw on the page earlier, maybe
• 34:09
  Speaker 1: you're not an apprentice anymore. You know, we saw her
• 34:10
  Speaker 1: turn into a wise one. And Amy's just like, yeah,
• 34:13
  Speaker 1: seems like, in addition to being Omrelin and Isada, you're
• 34:16
  Speaker 1: also a wise.
• 34:17
  Speaker 2: One considering you just did something that proves that you
• 34:20
  Speaker 2: have the fortitude of mind above and beyond almost anyone.
• 34:24
  Speaker 1: Right with no trials, no sand counting, no water dripping,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: no candle blowing out and relighting like Avianda had to
• 34:32
  Speaker 1: go through. Just oh shit, you kick ass.
• 34:35
  Speaker 2: And at no point did she have to say I
• 34:37
  Speaker 2: am a wise one, right, They just said, oh, yeah,
• 34:40
  Speaker 2: you are one through your actions and you're showing it.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: Perhaps it's time to stop thinking of you as an apprentice, right, right,
• 34:46
  Speaker 1: not even calling her a wise one, just like, well,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: you're not getting kicked out of the ranks, but you're
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: not an apprentice anymore.
• 34:52
  Speaker 2: So yeah, and like and that is that she's not
• 34:55
  Speaker 2: part of their organization. So of course she's not a
• 34:58
  Speaker 2: wise one, but she is no longer an apprentice of
• 35:01
  Speaker 2: the wise Ones either. She might actually be able to
• 35:03
  Speaker 2: teach the wise Ones a thing or two.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And then she says they all agree the battle's over,
• 35:09
  Speaker 1: and Iguan says, you have very much g like so
• 35:12
  Speaker 1: much of the White Tower owes you. Now you don't
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: know the White Tower we owe you. And they say
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: it's such a shame that we lost. You would have
• 35:20
  Speaker 1: been really cool if you could actually be a wise
• 35:22
  Speaker 1: one instead of just a parallel to us in a
• 35:26
  Speaker 1: different organization.
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: Right, it's not pretty cool if you were. Yeah.
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 35:30
  Speaker 1: Everyone basically does a handshake and says good game, and
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: they go home, and we pov switch and we're still
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: in Tarvallan still until I run Riod.
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: I will say. There's that one moment where she's like,
• 35:40
  Speaker 2: they couldn't have Swan says that the people who fled
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: couldn't have gone far. I'm like, they could have just
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: woken up. That's what fleeing means. They don't have to
• 35:48
  Speaker 2: go far, they don't have to be still be until
• 35:50
  Speaker 2: I Runriod thought that was a little bit of a miss.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well it's because like the others have gone Massana
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: ordered them to flee. Well they can't have gone far.
• 35:58
  Speaker 1: Well regardless, we're done. They could have woken up. Maybe
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: the dome's gone away, Like we're done. This was enough
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: fighting for one night.
• 36:05
  Speaker 2: Are there in hiding in various rooms in the White
• 36:07
  Speaker 2: Tower that you'll never really suss them out because they're
• 36:09
  Speaker 2: just like in hiding.
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's it's it would be a waste of resources
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: at this point. And yeah, they could just wake up
• 36:16
  Speaker 1: and then you're just hanging out here not sleeping, like
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: it's no good.
• 36:21
  Speaker 2: But yeah, you're right that POV switch to paren in
• 36:24
  Speaker 2: a nightmare.
• 36:38
  Speaker 1: Like this is still mid climax battle for him, Right,
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: we've had this this come down from mcgway's battle, but
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: now we're rejoining Parent and he's still like right in
• 36:47
  Speaker 1: the thick of it, he has just plunged his battered
• 36:50
  Speaker 1: self and Slayer into a nightmare and is trying to grapple.
• 36:53
  Speaker 2: With it and he's wounded as fuck. Right, He's definitely
• 36:56
  Speaker 2: like he can't really physically take Slayer anymore because of
• 37:00
  Speaker 2: his wounds. So he's using deception essentially by blending into
• 37:06
  Speaker 2: the background. Literally.
• 37:09
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, he changes his appearance. He imitates the actions
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: of the people in the Nightmare while still maintaining his
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: own sense of realities. Walking quite the tight rope, but
• 37:19
  Speaker 1: at least it's not a physically strenuous one, because yeah,
• 37:22
  Speaker 1: he's bleeding profusely.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: And Asi al Thorne is named for Anthony Azi's Nice
• 37:30
  Speaker 2: Nice who won the grand drawing prize in the Fundraiser
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight, and we've actually seen him.
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I thought the name was familiar, but he got
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: to be used a couple times.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: In Towers of Midnight chapter ten. He's walking with Grady
• 37:45
  Speaker 2: and Elias, so he's just sort of in the background.
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: Okay, So that's why he's one of the faces that
• 37:49
  Speaker 1: paren would think of, because he's been seeing this guy
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: around camp.
• 37:52
  Speaker 2: He rode with Daniel gall as he and Will went
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: with him to his trial later we're not quite there yet,
• 37:59
  Speaker 2: but he will be in the crowd watching him forge
• 38:02
  Speaker 2: his hammer and he'll carry his banner in the end
• 38:07
  Speaker 2: of this one. But yeah, so he's mentioned many times
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: in sort of the background and then used his face
• 38:14
  Speaker 2: is used here.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: But he's not immediately killed. So wait to be a
• 38:17
  Speaker 1: fan insert who's not a red shirt?
• 38:19
  Speaker 2: Let me see hold on what encyclopedia is incomplete sometimes
• 38:24
  Speaker 2: but no, it looks like he does survive. I don't
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: see any Yeah, there is no death scene for as ease.
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: Nice interesting last thing. He's the al It's not quite
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: al Thorn. It's al Thor.
• 38:38
  Speaker 1: Al Phone, I think is how the audiobook says it.
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Alphone is was al Thor, but a very similar
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: sort of name.
• 38:45
  Speaker 1: That's how language evolves, I guess.
• 38:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah. So, yeah, there's the hint. You know, there's lava.
• 38:50
  Speaker 2: This is this is one of those like I assume
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: it's a nightmare of like an apprentice in the in
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: the White Tower or something who's like, I'm gonna be
• 38:58
  Speaker 2: stuck in the last battle and Lava is gonna come
• 39:00
  Speaker 2: out and we're going to be, you know, basically screwed.
• 39:02
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it does very much feel like the nightmare of
• 39:04
  Speaker 1: someone who's lived in this town their whole life, and
• 39:07
  Speaker 1: like this is how the world ends. Is the mountain
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: that was always quiescent finally erupts right right.
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: It's sort of like us imagining like mount Hood going
• 39:15
  Speaker 2: out finally.
• 39:16
  Speaker 1: Right, Yeah, if you're going to have a nightmare about
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: a volcano going off, it's either going to be a
• 39:19
  Speaker 1: total fantasy volcano or it's going to be Mount Hood.
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: No other real world mountains are likely to fill that
• 39:25
  Speaker 1: slot in your mind.
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm. But yeah, you've got this moment where he's
• 39:29
  Speaker 2: like desperate and aching, and but Parent's like really good
• 39:33
  Speaker 2: at controlling how far into the dream he's drawn, right, Like,
• 39:37
  Speaker 2: he doesn't just like in or out. He can do
• 39:39
  Speaker 2: these sort of half INDs where it can be the
• 39:41
  Speaker 2: people but not really be fully drawn into the nightmare itself.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: Yeah, he doesn't get the sucked in reset thing, and
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: that's what he gets to. That's what he manages to
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: pull on Slayer, Right, He manages to get Slayer fully
• 39:51
  Speaker 1: sucked in and then pretend that he's in there and
• 39:55
  Speaker 1: like interact with Slayer as though he's just part of
• 39:58
  Speaker 1: the nightmare. Ha ha ha.
• 39:59
  Speaker 4: Very right.
• 40:00
  Speaker 2: And so Slayer ignores him like you ignore a servant
• 40:03
  Speaker 2: or ignoring you know that level.
• 40:04
  Speaker 1: Of there's like a hundred scared faces around you, why
• 40:07
  Speaker 1: would that one stand out?
• 40:08
  Speaker 2: And so Parent essentially uses the world of dreams to
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: be somebody else in a nightmare.
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: While bleeding out, freaking out about Hopper being desperately afraid
• 40:19
  Speaker 1: of what happens if this doesn't work. It's amazing he's
• 40:21
  Speaker 1: able to maintain the mental control to pull this off.
• 40:24
  Speaker 1: But I guess, you know, desperation sharpens your focus. I'm
• 40:28
  Speaker 1: going to kind of like mentally imagine this is roughly
• 40:30
  Speaker 1: around Wenegwayne is having her deepest moment of panic. Like
• 40:34
  Speaker 1: the two of them are both just like reaching its
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: deep into their souls as they've ever reached for this fortitude.
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: I like him being like, oh, yeah, I can probably
• 40:42
  Speaker 2: take advantage of the fact that this guy you know
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: is skilled to tell around and would never voluntarily jump
• 40:48
  Speaker 2: into a nightmare, right, Like that'd be dumb to do,
• 40:51
  Speaker 2: even though I've been doing it.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's a bit of a gamble on his part,
• 40:54
  Speaker 1: but it does fit with Slayer's arrogant personality, and it
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: seems to work. I mean he does. Slayer does pop
• 40:59
  Speaker 1: the nightmare pretty quickly once he realizes what's happening, so
• 41:03
  Speaker 1: clearly he hasn't spent no time practicing with these things.
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: But yeah, he's avoided them more than he's engaged with them.
• 41:10
  Speaker 1: Because Parent's been trying to speed run where a Slayer's
• 41:12
  Speaker 1: been doing this for what twenty years.
• 41:14
  Speaker 2: Or so, no one will assume.
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: Yeah, so he's like inevitably had run ins he couldn't
• 41:18
  Speaker 1: get out of. But he also didn't training montage on them.
• 41:21
  Speaker 1: But yeah, Paren grabs the dreamespike and then makes a
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: knife in his hand. Again, it's like this is this
• 41:29
  Speaker 1: is when Agwayne is stabbing people. They're both having their
• 41:32
  Speaker 1: fight climaxes around the same time, and he gets a
• 41:35
  Speaker 1: knife and he stabs Slayer, which is good because he
• 41:39
  Speaker 1: hasn't managed to really hit him properly since book.
• 41:42
  Speaker 2: Four right right, which he also stabs him in the
• 41:46
  Speaker 2: stomach as the same thing as he hits in the
• 41:47
  Speaker 2: stomach of the arrow.
• 41:48
  Speaker 1: Is it the chest?
• 41:49
  Speaker 3: I think?
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: Oh?
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: Is it? Yeah?
• 41:51
  Speaker 1: I think he's hit more in the like upper the chest.
• 41:54
  Speaker 1: Still the trunk Either way, Parent keeps hitting him in
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: the trunk and giving him immediate life threatening injuries.
• 41:59
  Speaker 2: And then yeah, the rift opens up next to him.
• 42:01
  Speaker 2: It's almost the world being like throw it in here.
• 42:04
  Speaker 2: It's like literally the most convenient thing to happen.
• 42:07
  Speaker 1: Ever, well, he is Tavern and he is Wolfboy, so
• 42:10
  Speaker 1: the world of dreams is probably not gonna be able
• 42:13
  Speaker 1: to help itself from bending to help him.
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: It's like, here you go, here's the place to destroy it.
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: And he's like, oh, okay again, we got that clue
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: earlier where Slayer's eyes sort of flicked to dragonm Ount
• 42:25
  Speaker 2: when he talked about destroying it, and so that was
• 42:27
  Speaker 2: the idea of.
• 42:28
  Speaker 1: Like dragon mat comes to him.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: Yeah, Dragon Mount came to him, and the sort of
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: duplication of it, and like then you got the idea
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: also from Hopper that like dreams, the nightmares of men
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: are strong, strong enough to destroy something that may even
• 42:44
  Speaker 2: like exist in the real world, which I don't know.
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: I feel like things that like come to the world
• 42:48
  Speaker 2: of dreams that are real or almost more vulnerable.
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: It's it feels kind of like a glass cannon situation,
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: right right right up on one the more down you
• 42:59
  Speaker 1: go on the other.
• 43:00
  Speaker 2: M hmm.
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah. But it also makes sense to me that something
• 43:03
  Speaker 1: as powerful as the dream spike could be taken out
• 43:06
  Speaker 1: by a nightmare, because a nightmare is more than one person, right,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: Like a nightmare has a lot of minds behind it.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: There's a lot Well they're kind of sent me sentient, right,
• 43:16
  Speaker 1: they can break off from a person and live on
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: their own for a bit.
• 43:19
  Speaker 2: I suppose, Yeah, But I always thought of them more
• 43:21
  Speaker 2: as like bubbles of evil from people. The bubble of
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: evil is essentially that I always think of them as
• 43:26
  Speaker 2: the dark to kind of rise up. And because the
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: real world is the world of dreams to the dark one,
• 43:34
  Speaker 2: that's why it's his prison, right, Like, it's just that.
• 43:37
  Speaker 1: The dream really is good at making things realistic, and
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: nightmares do that. I guess that's that's just really where
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: it's at.
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: Yes, but no, oh god, Yeah, I love the idea
• 43:47
  Speaker 2: of the dark ones the bubbles of evil just being
• 43:49
  Speaker 2: like dark ones nightmares or dreams.
• 43:52
  Speaker 1: Dreams, fond day dreams. But no, I mean that the
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: analogy works really well actually, so yeah, manages to huck
• 44:01
  Speaker 1: it into the lava for just long enough before Slayer
• 44:03
  Speaker 1: makes the lava go away that it does break the tarangryol,
• 44:08
  Speaker 1: it does kill the dome, and then we get to
• 44:10
  Speaker 1: have a psychic goodbye with Hopper while Slayer goes for
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: the kill shot and Parent gets out in the actual
• 44:17
  Speaker 1: nick of time.
• 44:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a sad death to see Hopper die. It is,
• 44:22
  Speaker 2: I don't know though, a little cliche here to have
• 44:23
  Speaker 2: him like I'll beat the bad guy at the last minute,
• 44:27
  Speaker 2: I can hang on and give you a final message.
• 44:29
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It just it's not my favorite death,
• 44:31
  Speaker 2: I'll be honest. Like, Hopper's first death was so emotional
• 44:34
  Speaker 2: and so hard, it's hard to beat.
• 44:37
  Speaker 1: You don't kill the dog, and if you do, you
• 44:39
  Speaker 1: don't kill him twice.
• 44:41
  Speaker 2: Right, right, There's a reason you brought him back in
• 44:43
  Speaker 2: the world of Dreams because, like, killing him was unconscionable.
• 44:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I'm I'm not a fan of permanent killing
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: the dog. I'm not a fan of the death scene
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: being psychic. I just I don't really like any of it.
• 44:56
  Speaker 1: And I don't like the cryptic final answer with the
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: dying breath. It's such an overused trope and the answer
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: is so obvious and so basic, and it's just.
• 45:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and I don't feel like that it fits the
• 45:12
  Speaker 2: character of Hopper. He wouldn't have held this information until
• 45:15
  Speaker 2: he was dying. He wouldn't have been like, oh, you know,
• 45:17
  Speaker 2: that's a very human thing to do, which is to
• 45:20
  Speaker 2: keep secrets until the last minute when you realize you're dying.
• 45:22
  Speaker 1: He's been corrupted by his approxy, by his association with
• 45:25
  Speaker 1: paren I guess to be more human, like I.
• 45:27
  Speaker 2: Don't I guess, Yeah, I don't know. But yeah, not
• 45:31
  Speaker 2: my favorite death scene of the heroes just just it
• 45:36
  Speaker 2: didn't feel It felt like a failure on parents' part
• 45:39
  Speaker 2: to rescue him, rather than Hopper dying for any particular reason.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's it. I could have lived with it if
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: he had like taken Slayer out and sacrificed himself to
• 45:50
  Speaker 1: do it. But instead it's just, oh, yeah, you left
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: me behind on the battlefield bleeding and you didn't get
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: back to me in time.
• 45:57
  Speaker 2: Eh, or like you caught me from the fall, but
• 46:01
  Speaker 2: somehow Slayer shot me through me and into your leg
• 46:05
  Speaker 2: at the same time. And yeah, yeah, it's just again
• 46:09
  Speaker 2: I feel I do feel like this chapter is doing
• 46:10
  Speaker 2: a little bit of just like checking off certain characters
• 46:13
  Speaker 2: to be like, oh, yep, dealt with that one.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: Like this.
• 46:15
  Speaker 2: There's a lot of that more, especially in the next book,
• 46:17
  Speaker 2: there's a lot of that where I'm like, I'm glad
• 46:21
  Speaker 2: that we have a final chapter on this character, but
• 46:24
  Speaker 2: it really did feel like you were checking them off
• 46:26
  Speaker 2: a list.
• 46:27
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I am unhappy that Hopper did that. Didn't need
• 46:30
  Speaker 1: to happen. Hopper could have been like, this is the
• 46:33
  Speaker 1: last time I'm helping you, goodbye, and then you know,
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: fucked off to heal at Wolf Hospital and been fine.
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: I've been fine with him leaving the story at this point,
• 46:41
  Speaker 1: but not permit dying.
• 46:42
  Speaker 2: Mm hm.
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: Anyway, with that very lackluster ending.
• 46:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and maybe some like your risks are too human
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: or I don't think I can teach you anymore because
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: you are, you know, in some way a wolf brother or.
• 46:58
  Speaker 1: The power the Creator compels me to never talk to
• 47:00
  Speaker 1: you again.
• 47:02
  Speaker 2: Right right, I don't know. Yeah, I'm trying to come
• 47:03
  Speaker 2: up with something that's like legitimate, but like, yeah, maybe
• 47:05
  Speaker 2: he's going.
• 47:06
  Speaker 1: To go to like Hero of the Horn processing and
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: that's going to take sixty earth years, so right.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Right, Yeah, I think that's that's the thing is, like
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: we want Hopper to be like a Hero of the Horn,
• 47:15
  Speaker 2: and if he's perman dead, like he kind of can't
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: be because he can't hang out until everyone riot anymore
• 47:20
  Speaker 2: with the heroes.
• 47:20
  Speaker 1: Maybe this is the only way he can fulfill his
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: true destiny, being reborn as a human, because everyone wants
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: to be human.
• 47:26
  Speaker 2: Not a human a bird. Yeah, he wants to fly.
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I don't know. I don't know how I want
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: this to be.
• 47:33
  Speaker 2: Because Hopper wasn't like he didn't want to jump. He
• 47:36
  Speaker 2: hopped because he wanted to fly.
• 47:38
  Speaker 1: He wants to soar. Specifically, it's supposed to be like
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: a raptor. He doesn't want to be a little like
• 47:42
  Speaker 1: tweetybird that lives in a bush. He wants to get
• 47:45
  Speaker 1: up there and see the land, big.
• 47:47
  Speaker 2: Old albatross, right like, never touch.
• 47:50
  Speaker 1: Totally, totally can imagine Hopper as a sea bird weeks
• 47:57
  Speaker 1: just flying over the open ocean.
• 47:59
  Speaker 2: I think love it.
• 48:00
  Speaker 1: I mean, honestly, he probably totally would so.
• 48:02
  Speaker 2: But yeah, that was a you know, fun destruction of
• 48:05
  Speaker 2: a tarrangreoal that do you think it would have survived bailfire?
• 48:10
  Speaker 2: So that's that's the thing. Right, So here's what I
• 48:13
  Speaker 2: have to ask. If Parrin somehow could harness the bailfire
• 48:17
  Speaker 2: shot at him and so be like I'm absorbing it
• 48:19
  Speaker 2: temporarily and then ejecting it back.
• 48:21
  Speaker 1: Out return fire for the missile return.
• 48:23
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly. If somehow he harnessed bailfire or had the
• 48:28
  Speaker 2: thing and brought it to the battle and someone shot bailfire,
• 48:31
  Speaker 2: and he like tossed it into the stream of bail
• 48:32
  Speaker 2: fire or something like that, right, Like, because we've seen
• 48:35
  Speaker 2: other objects of power survive bailfire.
• 48:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that's what I was thinking. And it's not just quandyar, right,
• 48:40
  Speaker 1: it's arrungrioal.
• 48:41
  Speaker 2: But that's the question, is it always Can we say
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: that those arranug greil were made out of quendyar.
• 48:47
  Speaker 1: No, because the sad bracelets are not quandyar and they
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: drop out of the beam.
• 48:52
  Speaker 2: Mm hmm.
• 48:53
  Speaker 1: We don't know what the sad bracelets are, but I
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: assume they aren't.
• 48:56
  Speaker 2: Some things they cannot be destroyed by bailfire. Quenyar is
• 48:58
  Speaker 2: one of them, but there are other things.
• 49:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: I suspect that if he had tried to shoot bailfire
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: out of his hand, I don't think it would have worked.
• 49:06
  Speaker 1: I think that the tarangiral would have fallen out of
• 49:09
  Speaker 1: the beam and just been like ha, try again.
• 49:12
  Speaker 2: You think that even though lava was capable of destroying it,
• 49:14
  Speaker 2: bailfire would not.
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: Be Yeah, because lava is a natural phenomena, whereas bailfire
• 49:19
  Speaker 1: is channeling. Right, It's that crispy human comes from only
• 49:24
  Speaker 1: a certain kind of thing, whereas lava like exists even
• 49:28
  Speaker 1: in a world with no humans, lava still exists. It's
• 49:31
  Speaker 1: one of the realest things. It's like early Earth is
• 49:34
  Speaker 1: just a ball of lava.
• 49:36
  Speaker 2: So figures the geologist would respect the power of lava.
• 49:39
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, pew pw with your mind is great
• 49:43
  Speaker 1: and all, but this is the power of Earth.
• 49:45
  Speaker 2: You two were once made out of lava exactly.
• 49:48
  Speaker 1: I mean literally, the Earth was a ball of molten
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: stuff before it got a crust, like before there was magma.
• 49:55
  Speaker 1: There was lava, magma magma.
• 49:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and so with the death of Hopper, we can
• 50:03
  Speaker 2: pov switch because we don't want to hang out with
• 50:06
  Speaker 2: anyone who's in actual grief.
• 50:07
  Speaker 1: Nope, nope, you paren can just go deal with that.
• 50:11
  Speaker 2: And he's doing the thing that I suggested the other eyes,
• 50:13
  Speaker 2: like he ran away, he woke up. That's how you
• 50:15
  Speaker 2: get away in these situations, which is what I assume
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: all the Black Aja did.
• 50:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, one assumes that when they were given the order
• 50:21
  Speaker 1: to retreat, that meant wake up, not relocate into a
• 50:25
  Speaker 1: different part of the city. And yeah, now Agwayin is
• 50:29
  Speaker 1: leaving the battle, waking up, coming back to the real world,
• 50:32
  Speaker 1: like really sitting pretty feeling pretty good about herself, you know,
• 50:35
  Speaker 1: patting herself on the shoulder, and why is that smell?
• 50:39
  Speaker 2: She does have a splitting headache, which you know she doesn't.
• 50:42
  Speaker 1: Have headache since Oh yeah, yeah.
• 50:44
  Speaker 2: I was trying to make a connection there, but I
• 50:46
  Speaker 2: don't think I can find anything.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: I think she just worked her brain really really hard.
• 50:49
  Speaker 1: I think that that breaking someone's brain is going to
• 50:51
  Speaker 1: take it out of you for a minute.
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: Yeah, a little bit of recoil on.
• 50:54
  Speaker 1: That one, exactly, exactly.
• 50:56
  Speaker 4: That was.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: Even if you have the butt of the gun right
• 50:59
  Speaker 1: next your shoulder, like kick, that heart is gonna hurt.
• 51:02
  Speaker 1: So yeah, she wakes up thinking everything's good, and then
• 51:05
  Speaker 1: as soon as she turns the light on, you know,
• 51:07
  Speaker 1: uses the power, to.
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: Which she's like, what I thought I left the light on?
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: The light gets mentioned a bunch of times, right, She's like,
• 51:13
  Speaker 2: she leaves the light on before she goes to sleep,
• 51:15
  Speaker 2: and then.
• 51:15
  Speaker 1: It's a comfortably dark room, and it's like, wait, it's
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: not supposed to be comfortably dark, and.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: Why does it smell like pennies?
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then as soon as she gets the light on,
• 51:24
  Speaker 1: it's like she's in the middle of a murder scene.
• 51:27
  Speaker 1: Just like the most like slasher film, slaughter room. Like
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: it's really nasty. And then in the middle of all
• 51:35
  Speaker 1: that sticky grossness there is her would be husband.
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: It's got a little bit of Godfather horsehead in the
• 51:40
  Speaker 2: bed sheets. Yeah, like you get like, what's that warmth
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: and slipperiness. You're like, oh, I'm covered in somebody else's blood.
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: That's horrific.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it's definitely waking up having already been grossly assaulted, right, right,
• 51:53
  Speaker 1: but all the bodies are on the floor, right, the
• 51:55
  Speaker 1: fight's over. She's waking up in the aftermath of her fight.
• 51:58
  Speaker 1: Also in the aftermath of god Gowan's not dead yet,
• 52:01
  Speaker 1: but the fight is definitively.
• 52:02
  Speaker 2: Over, and she ignores the poor guard, who may also
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: be alive and suffering, and goes over to help Gowan.
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean, there's some guy she's never seen before,
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: and there's the guy she wants to bone. I mean,
• 52:14
  Speaker 1: this is not a hard choice.
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: I'm just saying, you could have at least, you know,
• 52:18
  Speaker 2: triage the other guy a little bit made sure, Like
• 52:21
  Speaker 2: Gollin's clearly suffering and dying. What was the other guy
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: dead or was he beheaded or something? Am I am
• 52:27
  Speaker 2: I missing the obvious, like he's there without a head.
• 52:29
  Speaker 1: He's not beheaded, but he does die like he has
• 52:33
  Speaker 1: like stabbed in the back, Like he doesn't crawl across
• 52:35
  Speaker 1: the floor throughout the fight. Right, there's no indication that
• 52:37
  Speaker 1: he has anything other than an insta kill, insta death.
• 52:41
  Speaker 1: But yeah, no, I mean, you're right. But I'm just saying,
• 52:44
  Speaker 1: if I wake up and there's several bodies on the
• 52:45
  Speaker 1: floor and I only know one of them, I am
• 52:47
  Speaker 1: going for that one first to assess what's what para
• 52:50
  Speaker 1: parah And so, yeah, she's yelling for help, and he's like,
• 52:52
  Speaker 1: don't bother right, Like there's no one coming, Like I've
• 52:55
  Speaker 1: done the yelling that would have gotten people right, right.
• 52:59
  Speaker 1: She's trying to heal him. It's not working, and so
• 53:01
  Speaker 1: she pulls in a lane.
• 53:02
  Speaker 2: Because she's is now. And this was something I always forget.
• 53:05
  Speaker 2: She says she's not very good at healing, but I
• 53:07
  Speaker 2: don't remember if that's always been true. I thought she
• 53:09
  Speaker 2: was pretty good at it.
• 53:11
  Speaker 1: I think she was like pretty good at picking up
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: the basic stuff when they were novices, but she never
• 53:16
  Speaker 1: really advanced much beyond that.
• 53:18
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I guess she was always much more in the
• 53:20
  Speaker 2: combat because of the Sean Chan training, which always made
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: her very powerful in combat and like using elements and
• 53:27
  Speaker 2: finding elements, being uniquely.
• 53:29
  Speaker 1: Good at Earth. But yeah, I mean she had enough
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: adaptitude to do some healing, and like that was impressive
• 53:33
  Speaker 1: when she had only just been at the tower for
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: a few months, and it's less impressive now that she's
• 53:37
  Speaker 1: omrelin same skill level. And so yeah, she's basically you know,
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: patching him up a little tiny bit. But it's not
• 53:43
  Speaker 1: working right. It's like when Niniva was working over Brigida
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: and like, this isn't working. This isn't working, and it's like, Okay,
• 53:48
  Speaker 1: add magic healing, like not just magic repair, but add
• 53:51
  Speaker 1: this other thing, add the water bond, and that will
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: give them the strength to survive healing the normal way essentially.
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: And we have that moment where she kind of is like,
• 54:01
  Speaker 2: oh my god, what would have happened if I'd been
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: killed and Masana would have gone free and then the
• 54:05
  Speaker 2: battle would have been lost, And it's like on and
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: on and on and on. It's like, yeah, you were
• 54:10
  Speaker 2: you were at risk in the physical world and that
• 54:11
  Speaker 2: could have caused all sorts of problems.
• 54:13
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and Gowan gets in and I told you so,
• 54:16
  Speaker 1: right right, He says, Look, I'm sure whatever you're doing
• 54:19
  Speaker 1: was good, but these were not the forsaken. These people
• 54:22
  Speaker 1: I killed and basically died killing clearly not the forsaken.
• 54:26
  Speaker 1: So I told you so, and I love that for him.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: And so what I what I wanted to happen here, right,
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: which is she bonds him. The chapter ends, we cut
• 54:36
  Speaker 2: to the next chapter. The bond wasn't enough.
• 54:38
  Speaker 1: He died anyway, That's would have been so much more
• 54:42
  Speaker 1: devastating and satisfying. And uh huh, that's what That's what
• 54:45
  Speaker 1: we needed, was her being like, well, I had five
• 54:48
  Speaker 1: whole minutes of having a order, and now I am
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: destroyed for the next year.
• 54:53
  Speaker 2: And that's why you end up with again again in
• 54:55
  Speaker 2: because that's how you heal from the bond, the bond
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: being destroyed, however, briefly with Gowin.
• 55:01
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and then it actually means something because literally it
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: was a five minute bad decision. And then Againan's just like, no, girl,
• 55:06
  Speaker 1: you're not killing yourself.
• 55:07
  Speaker 2: I'm here now, right, I will save your life, right yeah.
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: And in that moment when she goes to sacrifice herself
• 55:13
  Speaker 2: on the battlefield a Guinan's like no, instead of like
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: releasing a Gainan and doing it anyway, It's like, no,
• 55:17
  Speaker 2: a Guinan's here to like comfort you and be like, girl,
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: I've gone through.
• 55:21
  Speaker 1: It too, right, yeah, exactly exactly. Baiale Doman knocks the
• 55:25
  Speaker 1: Omorlance seat out for her own good.
• 55:28
  Speaker 2: Right exactly that level of yeah yeah, because again this
• 55:34
  Speaker 2: is the bonding between a Guinan and Elaine just again
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: feels like checking off a box rather than.
• 55:41
  Speaker 1: Because we had that dream from a bajillion years ago,
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: it needed to go somewhere. It was such a good
• 55:45
  Speaker 1: foreshadowing crumb and then it amounts to freaking nothing.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: Nothing because I don't feel like he did a good
• 55:52
  Speaker 2: job of having Agwayne address the trauma of the Shawan Chan,
• 55:55
  Speaker 2: Like it feels like you kind of get a little
• 55:57
  Speaker 2: bit of that in this moment, but it's not an No.
• 56:00
  Speaker 1: She needed to have a long period of coming to
• 56:03
  Speaker 1: trust Eggion and Lylewyn. We're going with a proper name,
• 56:06
  Speaker 1: but like it needed to be a long process instead
• 56:09
  Speaker 1: of just some whiplash like what we get but instead
• 56:13
  Speaker 1: we get Godwin. We'll live from this and we can
• 56:16
  Speaker 1: pov switch to the other aftermath.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: Right, And this is where like, yeah, wounds, wounds come in,
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: everybody's getting healed. One thing that I thought was interesting
• 56:38
  Speaker 2: is like we don't really see a lot of paren
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: having unhealed wounds of teleron Riod, right, because in early books,
• 56:45
  Speaker 2: wounds from tellerroun Riod don't always heal the same way.
• 56:49
  Speaker 1: And he never takes a scar from it once.
• 56:51
  Speaker 2: No, that's why, like Nemive has like the wounds in
• 56:54
  Speaker 2: her palms from the blackthorns in the testing, because that's
• 56:58
  Speaker 2: part of the world of dreams.
• 56:59
  Speaker 1: Parent's got the scar on her arm. Carlinya's hair I
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: think gets literally burned off in that nightmare.
• 57:05
  Speaker 2: Well it's not really a scar, but yeah.
• 57:07
  Speaker 1: Still, I mean, like we have inconsistent amounts of effects
• 57:10
  Speaker 1: except for parent. Parent has a consistent effect of none.
• 57:13
  Speaker 2: Right, because he's taking a fair amount of number of wounds. Remember,
• 57:16
  Speaker 2: like you got well they did say that, like the
• 57:19
  Speaker 2: I believe the first wound Slayer gave him, right, remember
• 57:22
  Speaker 2: the bolt that was in him for a long time.
• 57:24
  Speaker 1: I thought that was a trollic bolt.
• 57:26
  Speaker 2: Oh that was a trollc bolt.
• 57:27
  Speaker 1: You're right, But yeah, he's just been laying here having
• 57:29
  Speaker 1: wounds just sort of open up on him as everyone
• 57:32
  Speaker 1: looks on in horror.
• 57:34
  Speaker 2: Mm hmmmm. You always wonder, You always wonder how that
• 57:37
  Speaker 2: looks in the real life. They never get a description
• 57:38
  Speaker 2: of someone watching someone get wounded in real life? Is
• 57:40
  Speaker 2: it the actual wounds open up? It seems like it.
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: Sure seems like it. Yeah, it says the wounds in
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: his leg and across his chest closed, so like at
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: some point they opened.
• 57:49
  Speaker 2: Yeah, And I always wondering, is that like when you
• 57:51
  Speaker 2: wake up? Is that when they must be when they happen.
• 57:53
  Speaker 1: It has to be when they happened, because like his
• 57:54
  Speaker 1: head is in Faiyo's lap, they've been standing around waiting
• 57:57
  Speaker 1: Daras had been preventing them from healing him or telling
• 58:02
  Speaker 1: them it wouldn't work, or like they hadn't been able
• 58:05
  Speaker 1: to make it work. And She's like, no, it wouldn't
• 58:06
  Speaker 1: have worked anyway. It's just not a thing you can do.
• 58:09
  Speaker 1: Your soul isn't in your body, the healing won't take
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: for whatever reason, which.
• 58:14
  Speaker 2: Again I feel like that's him sort of again closing
• 58:16
  Speaker 2: a little bit of a not necessarily a plot hole,
• 58:18
  Speaker 2: but like, why don't you just heal somebody who's getting injured?
• 58:21
  Speaker 2: In the world of dreams. Why don't you just have
• 58:23
  Speaker 2: someone sitting there healing them the whole time? Right, Like,
• 58:25
  Speaker 2: why wouldn't that fix the problem? And because you can't
• 58:28
  Speaker 2: hear yourself in the world of dreams when you're in there,
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: But if you had somebody on the outside healing you,
• 58:32
  Speaker 2: wouldn't that solve the problem? And then you could just
• 58:34
  Speaker 2: like be in the world of dreams and then like
• 58:38
  Speaker 2: be fighting and just be healed, be like, hah, I
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: took that injury, and then they'd just heal up and
• 58:42
  Speaker 2: you'd be like, daha, does somebody healing me in the
• 58:45
  Speaker 2: real world?
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: Right?
• 58:46
  Speaker 1: But no, there's there's a rule. There's a metaphysical.
• 58:48
  Speaker 2: Rule that that doesn't work. I don't know. I kind
• 58:51
  Speaker 2: of like the idea. I think that would be a
• 58:52
  Speaker 2: fun way to play with the rules a little bit
• 58:55
  Speaker 2: and have parent be likely be like why can't why
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: aren't these wounds taking him and being like, I've got
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: nicide in the real world healing me.
• 59:03
  Speaker 1: It would still be draining his body of energy though,
• 59:05
  Speaker 1: unless they had the second age healing techniques. As long
• 59:09
  Speaker 1: as he's using third age healing techniques, it would be
• 59:11
  Speaker 1: tiring him out.
• 59:12
  Speaker 2: Well, one would assume that they have the special because
• 59:15
  Speaker 2: he's got the Aschaman and they have the special healing.
• 59:17
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, totally totally. But yeah, so if
• 59:20
  Speaker 1: i Yiel lets him know, you know, most of the
• 59:22
  Speaker 1: camp is through, We're like literally the last tent. You know,
• 59:24
  Speaker 1: this is the last unit of the camp because the
• 59:26
  Speaker 1: gateways have been working again.
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Which again feels rude to me because I thought he
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: destroyed it and then almost immediately left time Differently, Yeah,
• 59:38
  Speaker 2: is he unconscious for a while between when he I.
• 59:41
  Speaker 1: Always thought that was an instant transition. That feels like
• 59:44
  Speaker 1: an anachronism.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: Right, because like I wanted to bring that up because
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: like he destroys it, he gets kicked a couple of times,
• 59:52
  Speaker 2: he flees to the real world. That can't be more
• 59:55
  Speaker 2: than what five seconds, ten seconds, He gets healed the
• 59:58
  Speaker 2: second he leaves the world, he wakes up right after
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: the healing.
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 3: I don't know. That feels weird.
• 1:00:04
  Speaker 1: Oh yeah, it does say that Adara stopped them from healing,
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: and like they couldn't even they didn't even get to
• 1:00:08
  Speaker 1: the point of trying. Adara's just like don't bother, which
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 1: I'm surprised that fai Yiel didn't stab her but.
• 1:00:14
  Speaker 2: Okay, sure, Yeah, the timeline just doesn't work for me.
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 2: That like, how could he have gone from being in
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 2: the dream five and then five seconds later he's out
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: of the dream having destroyed it, And she's like, oh,
• 1:00:26
  Speaker 2: everybody's already left.
• 1:00:28
  Speaker 5: What.
• 1:00:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah, that doesn't make sense.
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 2: That doesn't make sense at all. There's no way.
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 1: I guess that five seconds in the dream was more
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 1: like fifty minutes in the real world. Like, I don't know,
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 1: that's that doesn't make any sense.
• 1:00:41
  Speaker 2: No, it doesn't make any sense, especially with him like
• 1:00:44
  Speaker 2: being on the edge ready to heal in the second
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: he left the world of dreams.
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 1: Yeah, maybe it did take him a while to wake up.
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 1: Maybe there was a period of like comatose sleep between
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 1: leaving and getting Like our assumption of instantaneous transition is wrong.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: Editing a radia here, I realized as I was editing
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 1: this that the answer is that the camp is nowhere
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 1: near tarvallin right.
• 1:01:06
  Speaker 6: The beginning of the whole fight is him taking the
• 1:01:10
  Speaker 6: dome off of the camp so that they can make gateways.
• 1:01:15
  Speaker 6: By the time that the dream spike is being destroyed,
• 1:01:18
  Speaker 6: it's already been out of effect the whole time.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 1: I can't believe we didn't think of that anyway. But yeah,
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: he wakes up and says, we got to get out
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: of here. I got rid of the one thing, but
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 1: the trap still exists. I don't trust it. We still
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: need to leave. So they do, and he tells Fayo
• 1:01:37
  Speaker 1: that he lost Hopper again, and she actually knows what
• 1:01:39
  Speaker 1: that means. She actually understands the depth to which that
• 1:01:43
  Speaker 1: is a problem. It's not like, oh, he was just
• 1:01:45
  Speaker 1: a pet, or he was a wolf that you named. Like,
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: she knows who Hopper is as a person to paren.
• 1:01:51
  Speaker 2: One of my favorite moments is here where he tries
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 2: to make the sweat disappear on his forehead and he's like, oh, yeah,
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: I'm not in the world of dreams anymore. I can't
• 1:01:57
  Speaker 2: just alter reality. And I feel like, especially when I
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: say the astronauts come back from space and they do
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: things like just set a pen in the air in
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: front of them and it drops, and like, oh, yeah, right,
• 1:02:07
  Speaker 2: I'm I'm the different rules apply, and your brain has
• 1:02:12
  Speaker 2: to make that switch from one to the other. You
• 1:02:14
  Speaker 2: don't necessarily do it consciously. So I thought that was
• 1:02:17
  Speaker 2: pretty funny of like, instead of wiping his brow, he thought,
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 2: I'm just making disappear, and it didn't.
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: And Adara like catches it somehow, she like catches his
• 1:02:25
  Speaker 1: little like moment of readjustment. And so we were talking
• 1:02:30
  Speaker 1: earlier about you know, how parent just sleeps through the
• 1:02:34
  Speaker 1: battle and how is there not you know some guy
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: just being like man, parent just doesn't do anything like during.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: Battles and stuff.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 1: But we see the maidens here like raising their shields
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 1: and bucklers and like banging on them in a sign
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 1: of approval. So at least part of his army is like, no,
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 1: he was doing stuff. We get it.
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 2: No, Yeah, that's a little sarcastic because like, yeah, obviously
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: he's going in. They understand that the world dreams exists.
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: The wise ones have explained it, right like, and.
• 1:02:58
  Speaker 1: This is still the a yield. This isn't the two
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 1: rivers people. But at least one time he gets acknowledgment
• 1:03:03
  Speaker 1: that there is great g in sleeping for a battle.
• 1:03:05
  Speaker 2: Well, and of course it's Bane and Chiat, right like,
• 1:03:07
  Speaker 2: of course it's those two. Yeah it's not.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 1: Well, they're right there holding lanterns, but they're not maidens
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 1: right now, their guys shine.
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: The oh good point yep, yep, Yep, yep.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: They would be, but it would be inappropriate them to
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 1: touch weapons at this point in the timeline. And yeah,
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 1: he thinks about how the air smells like the plight
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 1: and he thought that that was an effect of the dome,
• 1:03:26
  Speaker 1: but it's not. It's something else. And I wanted to
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 1: know if you think that this is like a ninive
• 1:03:33
  Speaker 1: can tell storms are coming vibes thing, or is he
• 1:03:35
  Speaker 1: literally smelling the downwind of a trollic camp as the
• 1:03:40
  Speaker 1: portal is opening up and like literally bringing a new
• 1:03:44
  Speaker 1: atmosphere into the space.
• 1:03:46
  Speaker 2: I kind of hate that line. Yeah it is. It's
• 1:03:51
  Speaker 2: just like, yes, no, because like they're coming through the waves,
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: so it shouldn't smell like the Blight's No, they're.
• 1:04:01
  Speaker 1: Coming through portalstones.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 2: Oh okay, it's a portal stone. Yeah that's a good point.
• 1:04:06
  Speaker 2: So yeah, I guess if you're if you're doing the
• 1:04:08
  Speaker 2: whole phasing in and out, there could be some of
• 1:04:10
  Speaker 2: the blight could be like phasing with you, right because like.
• 1:04:13
  Speaker 1: Or it just literally like the collective exhalations of like
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 1: thousands of trolks.
• 1:04:19
  Speaker 2: I don't think they're there yet, right because I think
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 2: they start getting flashed in when the trap has spread.
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 1: Okay, so then the air can't have been smelling of
• 1:04:27
  Speaker 1: the transit. If they haven't started transitting, then the smell
• 1:04:30
  Speaker 1: that's been bothering him for days can't. That can't be. Yeah,
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 1: I thought I found an explanation.
• 1:04:36
  Speaker 2: Damn it because I again I don't because I because
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 2: remember how his male channels are saying, oh yeah, we
• 1:04:41
  Speaker 2: can feel like the pulsing of the power is there,
• 1:04:44
  Speaker 2: like and every pulse springs in another group of trolks
• 1:04:48
  Speaker 2: because we can feel them channeling.
• 1:04:49
  Speaker 1: Oh that does happen in the fight with the White
• 1:04:51
  Speaker 1: Cloaks later, right, I think? Yeah, No, that was something
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 1: we've already seen in Maradon. I know you've verified it.
• 1:04:57
  Speaker 2: No, No, I haven't verified it.
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 1: No, that wasn't thing we saw in Maradon because I
• 1:05:00
  Speaker 1: don't know anything that's coming up yet. I only know
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 1: things that have happened.
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 2: You're ruining the title of this chapter in this podcast.
• 1:05:10
  Speaker 1: There are no spoilers anymore.
• 1:05:12
  Speaker 2: That's true. It's really hard to have spoilers this late
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 2: in the series. Significant ones.
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 1: Anyway, It's like it, Yeah, it can't be the truck,
• 1:05:18
  Speaker 1: because he would know if he was literally smelling trollics
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 1: he would know, And yeah, it can't be the portal
• 1:05:24
  Speaker 1: stone wafting because it's not a thing in play yet
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 1: it gets triggered at the end of this chapter, so
• 1:05:31
  Speaker 1: it's got to be closer to a nine eve with
• 1:05:34
  Speaker 1: the storms and the vibes thing. But that doesn't make
• 1:05:37
  Speaker 1: any sense because he's not a channeler, and she attributes
• 1:05:40
  Speaker 1: channeling to her ability to be a weather vein of
• 1:05:43
  Speaker 1: the future. Where's the evil smell coming from?
• 1:05:47
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that to me just feels like vibes, all right, unsatisfying,
• 1:05:52
  Speaker 2: But okay, well, I mean it's certainly coming from the trap, right,
• 1:05:56
  Speaker 2: And as to what aspects of that trap exist, I
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 2: don't know. Oh, I don't know, because it doesn't feel
• 1:06:01
  Speaker 2: like there's anybody there who could be creating.
• 1:06:05
  Speaker 1: That smell proximity to buy Our if you're within a
• 1:06:08
  Speaker 1: ten foot or a ten mile radius, then buy Our
• 1:06:11
  Speaker 1: just stinks. I don't know.
• 1:06:13
  Speaker 2: It feels like just like Wolf insynct. You know, Spidey
• 1:06:16
  Speaker 2: sense almost right, Wolf he sense it doesn't make it,
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 2: but it doesn't make sense.
• 1:06:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it doesn't, it doesn't at all. Okay, fine, I
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 1: have the world is in book friggin thirteen. It's fine,
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 1: But Yeah, they get out of there. They're in and
• 1:06:29
  Speaker 1: or they're near White Bridge. The air smells good. Everyone's
• 1:06:32
  Speaker 1: safe and Paren is uneasy but happy, and we can
• 1:06:37
  Speaker 1: be a be switched to Grandall who is uneasy and unhappy.
• 1:06:41
  Speaker 2: Yeah, she's pissed because Paren escaped. Right, that's the a again,
• 1:06:45
  Speaker 2: he's out of the trap. Right, that's she's the source
• 1:06:48
  Speaker 2: of the smell. If you want to whatever she's doing,
• 1:06:50
  Speaker 2: maybe she's gate weighing into Scout and she's gate weighing
• 1:06:53
  Speaker 2: in from the blight because that's where Mordan's headquarters is.
• 1:06:57
  Speaker 1: That's actually a good point periodic, like these puffs of
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 1: blightwaft And yeah, she is talking to a servant, but
• 1:07:05
  Speaker 1: it's Slayer right loaned her. Yeah he's under control, but
• 1:07:10
  Speaker 1: barely he knew he was unique, So it's like, okay, yeah,
• 1:07:12
  Speaker 1: that's Slair. He's been working for her for a while
• 1:07:14
  Speaker 1: to try to make this all go and he is
• 1:07:18
  Speaker 1: aware that his failure will be reflected on her, but
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 1: she can't punish him even she has to just move
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 1: forward with the plan, just like Massana. She is like, well,
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 1: I'm losing, but I'm going to adapt because I can't.
• 1:07:29
  Speaker 1: I don't have another go around at this. I have
• 1:07:32
  Speaker 1: to move forward with this version of the plan.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 2: And I think she's depending on Parent rescuing the white cloaks.
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 2: You do, I do? Oh? I don't think her goal
• 1:07:41
  Speaker 2: is to destroy the white cloaks, right, Her goal is
• 1:07:45
  Speaker 2: to position the white Cloaks so that she can use
• 1:07:47
  Speaker 2: the one tool left to her, which.
• 1:07:50
  Speaker 1: Is by r Well, that's her adaptation now, like she
• 1:07:53
  Speaker 1: did want him to fight the white cloaks before.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 2: Yes, Now what she's saying is I've got she's got
• 1:07:59
  Speaker 2: one tool left to her. She had positioned very carefully
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 2: once she prepared for this moment such as this. We
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 2: know that's by our.
• 1:08:06
  Speaker 1: Yes, yes, okay, So that's when she says spring the trap. Anyway,
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 1: she says, well, if we spring it, he'll rescue the
• 1:08:12
  Speaker 1: white cloaks, and well, okay, all right.
• 1:08:14
  Speaker 2: And then there's a chance for buyer to be in
• 1:08:15
  Speaker 2: position to kill him. The goal here is not to
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 2: wipe out the white.
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 1: Cloaks, sure, sure, yeah. The white Cloaks are to distract Parent.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 1: So yeah, I guess it doesn't matter if he's distracted
• 1:08:26
  Speaker 1: by killing them or saving them. Either way, his eyes
• 1:08:29
  Speaker 1: on a different ball than by our right, So Buyer
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 1: was always her final plan. It was just going to
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 1: be on a battlefield versus in a aftermath of a rescue.
• 1:08:39
  Speaker 1: Either way, it doesn't matter.
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 2: Right right, Okay, I mean I think she hoped that
• 1:08:43
  Speaker 2: the White Cloak would wipe them out, but that was
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 2: never going to happen.
• 1:08:45
  Speaker 1: Well yeah, no, I mean not unless the entire legion
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 1: rules in at twenties, like it's not happening.
• 1:08:50
  Speaker 2: And then she was going to spring the trap on
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 2: Parent after he fought the White Cloaks in a weakened
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 2: position hurt. Now, I think it was ridiculous because you
• 1:08:57
  Speaker 2: think you would have wiped the White Cloaks out with
• 1:08:59
  Speaker 2: a heart, you know, breaking us sweat, and then the
• 1:09:02
  Speaker 2: trap would have been sprung, and then Paren would have
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 2: been at a disadvantage.
• 1:09:07
  Speaker 1: But like, not that much of one. This is a
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 1: really it seems like her original plan probably wouldn't have
• 1:09:12
  Speaker 1: worked much better than the way the adapted plan goes.
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 1: This is not much of a downgrade as plans go.
• 1:09:18
  Speaker 1: This is sort of just a lateral move.
• 1:09:20
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, Parent does position himself so he can
• 1:09:22
  Speaker 2: just bombard the trolks with arrows and the one power
• 1:09:26
  Speaker 2: and like if he was ambushed. I think it would
• 1:09:28
  Speaker 2: be a slightly different situation.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: It's true he gets out of this with like one
• 1:09:32
  Speaker 1: guy that gets hurt or something.
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 2: Like that, right, yeah, or something almost nothing.
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 1: Yet that's so interesting. I do like that Grandall has
• 1:09:38
  Speaker 1: the layers of defenses. It just feels like her initial
• 1:09:41
  Speaker 1: plan here with the trap is not that much more
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 1: clever than the adaptation that she moves to.
• 1:09:46
  Speaker 2: No, it's it's just the like, Hey, maybe they didn't
• 1:09:49
  Speaker 2: think about the fact that we can move tronks with
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: portal stones, and so we can kind of spring a
• 1:09:54
  Speaker 2: waygate type trap. But we use portal stones when you
• 1:09:57
  Speaker 2: think you're safe, and that's the cleverness. But then and
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: then if that doesn't work and we've got the white
• 1:10:02
  Speaker 2: cloaks here is sort of like, oh, rescue them, be
• 1:10:06
  Speaker 2: friendly with them, yes, get stabbed in the back by them, excellent.
• 1:10:10
  Speaker 1: Right, right, turn your back on them because now that
• 1:10:13
  Speaker 1: you're allies and.
• 1:10:14
  Speaker 2: Ha yeah, And then you got Buyer to do his thing.
• 1:10:17
  Speaker 2: And if it wasn't for Born Haled, you know, he
• 1:10:20
  Speaker 2: could have stood aside and let buy our kill parent
• 1:10:23
  Speaker 2: and that would have been the end of it.
• 1:10:24
  Speaker 1: And I guess that's why we needed the trial is
• 1:10:26
  Speaker 1: because the trial is when Bornhold gets convinced that he
• 1:10:30
  Speaker 1: needs to change his worldview.
• 1:10:33
  Speaker 2: Okay, so that's that's all about stopping this trap from Grendel.
• 1:10:38
  Speaker 1: I mean, and it's a good plan in the sense
• 1:10:39
  Speaker 1: that she's right that the only way to get to
• 1:10:41
  Speaker 1: him is in the middle of a tempest. Right, you
• 1:10:43
  Speaker 1: can't throw one thing at him and have it work.
• 1:10:45
  Speaker 1: You have to throw seventy things at him and hope
• 1:10:47
  Speaker 1: that one gets through.
• 1:10:49
  Speaker 2: And I like that metacognition of being like, he's severe
• 1:10:51
  Speaker 2: and he's got plot armor. How do you get around
• 1:10:53
  Speaker 2: plot armor? And you have to make things.
• 1:10:55
  Speaker 1: Chaouts the pattern?
• 1:10:57
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly right. Yeah, it makes so that like it
• 1:11:00
  Speaker 2: it's trying to fight off all these other things that
• 1:11:01
  Speaker 2: are trying to kill him, and so that then you
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 2: can do a deliberate strike in the right moment.
• 1:11:06
  Speaker 1: Why does she call him fallen Blacksmith? What has he
• 1:11:09
  Speaker 1: fallen from?
• 1:11:10
  Speaker 2: That is a reference to a dark prophecy.
• 1:11:14
  Speaker 1: Right with the one that Morden shared with her, Right
• 1:11:16
  Speaker 1: that was a set between her and mord And when
• 1:11:18
  Speaker 1: we got that prophecy that was.
• 1:11:20
  Speaker 2: Towers of Midnight chapter five, Parna Borrow, he is important,
• 1:11:24
  Speaker 2: Grendel said, the prophecies. I know the prophecies, Morden said softly.
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 2: He did not turn. How would you do it? My
• 1:11:30
  Speaker 2: spies have located his army. I've already set some plans
• 1:11:32
  Speaker 2: of motion regarding him, just in case I retain the
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 2: group of shadows spawn given to me to cause chaos,
• 1:11:37
  Speaker 2: and I have a trap prepared. His men have gateways.
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 2: He will escape you. So that's where he gives her
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 2: the tron Real gives her the dream spike. Here's where
• 1:11:49
  Speaker 2: he gets lent. She gets lent slayer. Where did these
• 1:11:52
  Speaker 2: prophecies come from? They have been long known to me,
• 1:11:55
  Speaker 2: Morden said, softly, but not to many others, not even
• 1:11:58
  Speaker 2: the Chosen. The women and men who who spoke these
• 1:12:00
  Speaker 2: were isolated and held alone. The light must never know
• 1:12:04
  Speaker 2: of these words. We know of their prophecies, but they
• 1:12:07
  Speaker 2: will never know all of ours. But this, she said,
• 1:12:10
  Speaker 2: rereading the passage. This says a Barro will die. There
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 2: can be many interpretations of any prophecy, but yes, this
• 1:12:18
  Speaker 2: fore telling promises that a Barro will die by our hand.
• 1:12:21
  Speaker 1: No, it's at the back of the book. That's where
• 1:12:23
  Speaker 1: the full thing is. That's where the actual thing. So
• 1:12:26
  Speaker 1: here's the relative, the relevant part in that day when
• 1:12:30
  Speaker 1: the one eyed fool travels the halls of Mourning, and
• 1:12:33
  Speaker 1: the first among vermin lifts his hand to bring freedom
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 1: to him, who will destroy the last days of the
• 1:12:38
  Speaker 1: fallen Blacksmith's pride shall come yea, And the broken d Wolf,
• 1:12:42
  Speaker 1: the one whom death has known, shall fall and be
• 1:12:45
  Speaker 1: consumed by the Midnight Towers, and his destruction shall bring
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 1: fear and sorrow to the hearts of men, and shall
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 1: shake their very will itself.
• 1:12:52
  Speaker 2: And that, in a lot of ways is the title
• 1:12:54
  Speaker 2: of the book, right, that's the reference because it's the.
• 1:12:56
  Speaker 1: Yes Towers of Midnight Midnight Towers, the broken Wolf, who
• 1:13:01
  Speaker 1: death has known, has and fell off of the tower.
• 1:13:04
  Speaker 1: Sounds like Hopper to.
• 1:13:05
  Speaker 2: Me, I believe, yes. I think that the broken Wolf,
• 1:13:08
  Speaker 2: the one who death has known, right because Hopper has
• 1:13:10
  Speaker 2: died once, shall fall and be consumed by the Midnight Towers.
• 1:13:14
  Speaker 1: He falls off a tower and goes to the ultimate
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 1: abyss m hm.
• 1:13:18
  Speaker 2: However, I do think it could be No as well.
• 1:13:23
  Speaker 2: I've argued this before. No marks as a broken wolf. More,
• 1:13:27
  Speaker 2: he was under Morgan's control, who is death, and he
• 1:13:30
  Speaker 2: falls by the Midnight Tower, one of those towers tower
• 1:13:33
  Speaker 2: of Genjai no Nol Nol Sorry.
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 1: Okay, I was like, what the fuck? Death didn't no
• 1:13:39
  Speaker 1: No aside people.
• 1:13:41
  Speaker 2: In his life because we referenced.
• 1:13:44
  Speaker 5: Reardless Nol So I think right, because he he's often
• 1:13:49
  Speaker 5: described as an old wolf, right, like and so, and
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 5: he's broken, Death has known him because like, so, that's
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 5: one of those things where canonically.
• 1:13:57
  Speaker 2: It refers to hop Right, I believe it's actually even
• 1:13:59
  Speaker 2: confirmed Brandon, he refers to Hopper.
• 1:14:02
  Speaker 1: Well, I mean it's even in the line after fallen Blacksmith,
• 1:14:04
  Speaker 1: which is parent, which is how we got here. So,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 1: but I like that there is a double layer where
• 1:14:09
  Speaker 1: you could be like nol is. But yeah, so the
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 1: point of all this was to get to fallen Blacksmith.
• 1:14:14
  Speaker 1: Why is he called fallen blacksmith? At what point has
• 1:14:17
  Speaker 1: he fallen? Aside from the aforementioned falling off of a tower.
• 1:14:20
  Speaker 2: He's not a blacksmith anymore. He's a fallen blacksmith.
• 1:14:23
  Speaker 1: Oh but see, but he's been elevated in social status,
• 1:14:26
  Speaker 1: so how could it be falling? Oh no, you're right,
• 1:14:29
  Speaker 1: You're right, okay, okay.
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 2: Because he's failed as a blacksmith he's.
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 1: A fall like my pyramid shaped brain programming has done me.
• 1:14:36
  Speaker 2: To him saying I'm not a blacksmith or I'm not
• 1:14:39
  Speaker 2: a I'm just a blacksmith. No, you're not parent. You
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 2: failed at that.
• 1:14:41
  Speaker 1: You're a fallen black You've upgraded to more than that,
• 1:14:45
  Speaker 1: which means you have fallen from the exalted ranks of
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 1: blacksmith into the pits of leadership.
• 1:14:50
  Speaker 2: It's kind of like calling rand a fallen sheep urder.
• 1:14:54
  Speaker 1: Okay, sure, sure, that's not how I would have gone
• 1:14:56
  Speaker 1: with it, but yeah, no, you're right.
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: It's like an insult. It's like, oh, yeah, you can't
• 1:15:01
  Speaker 2: even be a good blacksmith.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:15:03
  Speaker 1: And he's admitted he's not a blacksmith really or not
• 1:15:06
  Speaker 1: admitted it, but he's admitted he's a leader at this point, right,
• 1:15:09
  Speaker 1: he at this point and when Hopper has died, as like, fuck,
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 1: I am a leader, damn it.
• 1:15:14
  Speaker 2: And really, what is Paren's struggle? He has to struggle
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: with the fact that like, he doesn't get to go
• 1:15:19
  Speaker 2: back to being this is his pride. His pride is
• 1:15:21
  Speaker 2: he thinks he can go back to being a blacksmith.
• 1:15:23
  Speaker 1: Yy.
• 1:15:25
  Speaker 2: So these are the last days of the fallen blacksmith's
• 1:15:28
  Speaker 2: pride these last days when he still thinks he can
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: go back to being a blacksmith. Yeah, and it's like
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: the words sound negative, but it's like, oh, and when
• 1:15:36
  Speaker 2: he realizes he actually has to come around and be
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: an actual leader, which is a good thing.
• 1:15:41
  Speaker 1: That is a really good reframe. I wo was just
• 1:15:44
  Speaker 1: blew right on by that, but you're totally right. You're
• 1:15:47
  Speaker 1: totally right.
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's reading the dark prophecies are so fun because
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: they describe the same events in what appears to be
• 1:15:55
  Speaker 2: a very negative way, but you're looking at it being like, oh,
• 1:15:57
  Speaker 2: so you're describing the heroes actually like coming into their
• 1:16:00
  Speaker 2: uh huh.
• 1:16:01
  Speaker 3: Yeah, totally totally.
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 1: And that's why people that are hateful and stupid and
• 1:16:07
  Speaker 1: shrinking are just looking at the information the wrong way.
• 1:16:09
  Speaker 1: You just got our reframe, and then the very same
• 1:16:11
  Speaker 1: information is actually much more hopeful and awesome.
• 1:16:13
  Speaker 2: Now, Yeah, I'm not really sure why. The destruction of Hopper,
• 1:16:18
  Speaker 2: you know, brings fear and sorror to the hearts of men,
• 1:16:20
  Speaker 2: and she'll shake the very will itself. That's one thing
• 1:16:24
  Speaker 2: I struggled with a little bit.
• 1:16:26
  Speaker 1: It does shake parents' confidence in himself and as a
• 1:16:30
  Speaker 1: leader of men. It kind of ripples through his army
• 1:16:33
  Speaker 1: for a bit, but it doesn't like seriously kick the
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 1: stuffing out of them. It's just a sort of bummer
• 1:16:39
  Speaker 1: of a week.
• 1:16:41
  Speaker 2: It does kind of lead to him creating Mahalinar, and
• 1:16:43
  Speaker 2: with that wolf on the side, I wonder if Mahalonaar
• 1:16:46
  Speaker 2: is imbued with the spirit of Hopper because it's this
• 1:16:49
  Speaker 2: moment where he says what happens to the soul of
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 2: Hopper And part of me is like, did he put
• 1:16:54
  Speaker 2: it in Mahalina.
• 1:16:55
  Speaker 1: Well, we do know that there's no recreating moll in here.
• 1:16:58
  Speaker 1: We know that that is a one off weapon and
• 1:17:00
  Speaker 1: all of the lessons learned from that will never recreate
• 1:17:02
  Speaker 1: that specific weapons.
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 2: So yeah, And I think that's because it has the
• 1:17:08
  Speaker 2: soul of a wolf in it, of the real and like,
• 1:17:10
  Speaker 2: you can never recreate that bond between Hopper and parent
• 1:17:14
  Speaker 2: and recreate that weapon because you can never put the
• 1:17:16
  Speaker 2: soul of a wolf back into Mahalinar.
• 1:17:19
  Speaker 1: Yeah, at least not that wolf. You have to have
• 1:17:21
  Speaker 1: a whole other or with a whole other.
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 2: Wolf exactly exactly exactly. That's why, Like, and it's unique
• 1:17:27
  Speaker 2: because it's created in unique circumstances. I like that idea
• 1:17:30
  Speaker 2: that that's where Hopper's soul ended up, and that's why
• 1:17:33
  Speaker 2: it's a unique weapon, above and beyond other power wrought weapons.
• 1:17:37
  Speaker 1: And again to fit with the prophecy, his destruction brought
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 1: fear and sorrow to the hearts of men and ship
• 1:17:43
  Speaker 1: the very will itself, meaning when this weapon got created,
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 1: when the soul got brought down in, when the lightning
• 1:17:51
  Speaker 1: was called down into the bottle, and paren got this weapon,
• 1:17:53
  Speaker 1: it really helps the army get it shipped together, brought
• 1:17:56
  Speaker 1: their morale together, helped him do his leadership thing. Was
• 1:17:59
  Speaker 1: the opposite of the loss of morale or their loss
• 1:18:02
  Speaker 1: of their very will itself. So it's just these people
• 1:18:05
  Speaker 1: are just looking at all the stuff in a really
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 1: like negative light. They have the opposite of rose colored glasses.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: Basically, they have tainted glasses, tainted colored glasslasses. Oh boy,
• 1:18:22
  Speaker 2: everything's looking a little brown, smeary. No, And it's just
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: it's a fun I really like the dark prophecy. I
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 2: think that's a good way for Brandon to write prophecy,
• 1:18:33
  Speaker 2: which is just basically by reframing stuff that's said in
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: the good prophecy in a negative way. I think that
• 1:18:38
  Speaker 2: was a really clever way for him to write prophecy
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: without really writing new prophecy, because he's just describing things
• 1:18:42
  Speaker 2: that have a lot of things that have already happened
• 1:18:44
  Speaker 2: or we know will happen. Right, the confrontation between random
• 1:18:47
  Speaker 2: the dark one and reframing it and saying, oh, what
• 1:18:50
  Speaker 2: if I make it all look bad? I can do
• 1:18:53
  Speaker 2: a clever bit of writing there.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 1: It's like when you go to a fancy restaurant and
• 1:18:56
  Speaker 1: they've taken the napkins and like made napkin art out
• 1:18:58
  Speaker 1: of it instead of just having it a basic square fold.
• 1:19:01
  Speaker 1: It's like that was unnecessary. I'm going to have a
• 1:19:03
  Speaker 1: napkin either way. But it's pretty cool you made it
• 1:19:05
  Speaker 1: look like a flower instead like a boat or something.
• 1:19:11
  Speaker 1: And yeah, with that, we've concluded a really really epic
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 1: set of action sequenced plot conclusions, character developments, notable moments.
• 1:19:22
  Speaker 1: We've now done. It's just a week. We've conquered the
• 1:19:25
  Speaker 1: moment in which it just a weave happens. And that's
• 1:19:29
  Speaker 1: a big deal.
• 1:19:30
  Speaker 2: And you thought this was going to be a shorter
• 1:19:31
  Speaker 2: recording than last week. This is why we split a lot. Yeah,
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 2: you did not need a three hour recording.
• 1:19:39
  Speaker 1: Yes, even though I've been doing this for a long time,
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 1: you have been doing it longer.
• 1:19:46
  Speaker 4: I feel like I.
• 1:19:47
  Speaker 2: Have a little bit of an intuitive sense based on.
• 1:19:50
  Speaker 1: You consistently make a better call on how long a
• 1:19:52
  Speaker 1: thing will take than me. I'm consistently wrong. You were
• 1:19:54
  Speaker 1: consistently mostly right, never perfectly right.
• 1:19:58
  Speaker 2: But yeah, I again a lot. Encyclopedia is a boon
• 1:20:02
  Speaker 2: because I can kind of because they have the facts
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 2: only please on there, I can look through that very
• 1:20:09
  Speaker 2: quickly and see how long the facts only are. Because
• 1:20:11
  Speaker 2: sometimes the longer chapters have super short summary, and that
• 1:20:14
  Speaker 2: gives you a proxy, and that gives me a secondary
• 1:20:17
  Speaker 2: piece of information other than just looking at the length
• 1:20:19
  Speaker 2: of the chapter. There's also what happens in it and
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 2: the length of what happens in it. And so if
• 1:20:24
  Speaker 2: it's a long chapter with a short summary, I'm like, okay,
• 1:20:26
  Speaker 2: well we can do two of those, you know, but that's.
• 1:20:31
  Speaker 1: A really good uh yeah that makes sense. And then yeah,
• 1:20:34
  Speaker 1: it feels like it's a short chapter but it's long summary.
• 1:20:38
  Speaker 2: But it's long, or even if it's like a big
• 1:20:40
  Speaker 2: significant thing that has a lot of metaphysical stuff to it,
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 2: not just a straight action.
• 1:20:46
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we didn't even tangent that hard. We were quite
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 1: engaged with this material.
• 1:20:49
  Speaker 2: We were it was a lot of POV switches, you know,
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 2: and like there was some tangents, but there were tangents
• 1:20:54
  Speaker 2: about other things in the book.
• 1:20:55
  Speaker 1: So yeah, they're in world tangents. They weren't the Dear
• 1:20:58
  Speaker 1: God make it stop tangents.
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I can throw a couple of those
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 2: in there if you want.
• 1:21:03
  Speaker 1: We had twenty minutes of that at the beginning.
• 1:21:05
  Speaker 2: I want to get to Carl fair enough. All right, Well,
• 1:21:10
  Speaker 2: thank you so much for joining us on Wheel of Time,
• 1:21:13
  Speaker 2: and please don't forget to check out our other podcast,
• 1:21:16
  Speaker 2: Dungeon Crawler Carl First Time Reader Podcast. If you haven't
• 1:21:20
  Speaker 2: read the books, please join us because you can read along.
• 1:21:26
  Speaker 2: And you know, the first book is I think like
• 1:21:29
  Speaker 2: free on Amazon unlimited audio audible book, so I think
• 1:21:33
  Speaker 2: you can go out there and you just get it
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 2: for free.
• 1:21:35
  Speaker 1: You can also get it from a library probably or
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 1: a library.
• 1:21:38
  Speaker 2: Please get it from a library if you can, and like, yeah,
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: just join us on that journey, right, like if you're
• 1:21:43
  Speaker 2: still if you're still listening to us after all these years,
• 1:21:48
  Speaker 2: all of these years that I'm willing to bet you
• 1:21:51
  Speaker 2: would also like us on our other podcast, podcasted Donut
• 1:21:56
  Speaker 2: is the name of the podcast.
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 1: Yep, it's a good time. And yeah, we're going to
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 1: take a quick break and go record my the last
• 1:22:03
  Speaker 1: episode of the first book. I've concluded my first volume
• 1:22:07
  Speaker 1: of the series and I'm very excited.
• 1:22:08
  Speaker 2: So has read one of the books now, so only
• 1:22:11
  Speaker 2: six more to go, I know, right, And and there
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: are certainly I of the world isms in book one
• 1:22:17
  Speaker 2: that we'll discuss as we sort of get past them.
• 1:22:19
  Speaker 2: But in a lot of ways, because the way that
• 1:22:21
  Speaker 2: those books are written, they grow.
• 1:22:24
  Speaker 1: I mean that's how every Dungeon campaign, that's every D
• 1:22:27
  Speaker 1: and D campaign starts out with the one world building
• 1:22:29
  Speaker 1: and then whatever chaos evolved so that it feels very
• 1:22:32
  Speaker 1: and keeping with the camp feels right.
• 1:22:34
  Speaker 2: Yeah. And I think one of the big differences in
• 1:22:37
  Speaker 2: Dungeon Crawler Carl is in a lot of books you have,
• 1:22:40
  Speaker 2: you know, a checkof gun. In Dungeon Crawler Crawl, you
• 1:22:42
  Speaker 2: have Chekhov's arsenal like and he doesn't necessarily use them,
• 1:22:47
  Speaker 2: all right, and so you get a lot of these
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: things where you're like, man, this could be really clever.
• 1:22:52
  Speaker 2: I'm curious to see what he does with it and
• 1:22:55
  Speaker 2: how much trying to say it makes the world feel
• 1:22:57
  Speaker 2: a little more lived in that like, not everything, you know,
• 1:23:00
  Speaker 2: not everything is going to get used. He's got shit
• 1:23:02
  Speaker 2: in his inventory. You're like, I don't know how he's
• 1:23:03
  Speaker 2: going to use that, and he doesn't either, and I
• 1:23:05
  Speaker 2: don't think the author knows either.
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 1: Well, that's kind of like what I liked about nicholas
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 1: death in the section of just like, not everyone with
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 1: main character syndrome was going to get a meaningful death.
• 1:23:14
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you just step on an ied five minutes into
• 1:23:16
  Speaker 1: the mission and that's it. That's your deployment.
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, the first guy to die in D Day
• 1:23:23
  Speaker 2: who like they lower the barriers and bang, you're dead,
• 1:23:26
  Speaker 2: and it's like you were still there and assault it.
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: It doesn't feel like you did anything, but you took
• 1:23:31
  Speaker 2: that first bullet and that like somebody had to and
• 1:23:34
  Speaker 2: that was you, and it's like, oh my god, that's
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: terrible and awful but realistic.
• 1:23:39
  Speaker 1: So you know, doing that in the story building context
• 1:23:42
  Speaker 1: of the world has turned into a murder dungeon feels appropriate.
• 1:23:45
  Speaker 1: And with that, can we turn this recording offs? We
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 1: can turn that recording employees.
• 1:23:49
  Speaker 2: No, I want to say one more thing, just to pause.
• 1:23:55
  Speaker 2: All right, thanks guys, dooining to see and see you
• 1:23:57
  Speaker 2: next time.
• 1:24:37
  Speaker 1: Turn recording on and continue bitching about the concept of adaptations.
• 1:24:41
  Speaker 1: How do you get not bitching about them complimenting the
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 1: ones that are good, the.
• 1:24:44
  Speaker 2: Ones that are good. Yeah, and we were saying that, like,
• 1:24:47
  Speaker 2: you know, Asthma is very hard to adapt, even though
• 1:24:51
  Speaker 2: his stuff is foundational to the sci fi genre and
• 1:24:53
  Speaker 2: the same way the Tolkien is to the fantasy genre.
• 1:24:55
  Speaker 1: Yeah. I was honestly so surprised that my favorite plot
• 1:24:58
  Speaker 1: in Foundation was not from a off because it seemed
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 1: so like mid century speculative sci fi. And then it
• 1:25:04
  Speaker 1: was like, oh, they made that up for the show.
• 1:25:05
  Speaker 1: I guess I have no sense of what vintage sci
• 1:25:07
  Speaker 1: fi looks like that I thought that felt very vintage.
• 1:25:10
  Speaker 2: But whatever, Well, they know what you think is going
• 1:25:13
  Speaker 2: to be vintage, and they played up that stereotype.
• 1:25:15
  Speaker 1: I don't like being predictable.
• 1:25:18
  Speaker 2: I got news for you. The algorithms are on point.
• 1:25:22
  Speaker 2: They predict us very very well.
• 1:25:24
  Speaker 3: No, it's true.
• 1:25:25
  Speaker 1: Sometimes I have to remind myself that targeted advertising is
• 1:25:28
  Speaker 1: actually a blessing in disguise, because then I don't have
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 1: to wade through a bunch of shit I didn't want.
• 1:25:32
  Speaker 1: I'm only looking at a curated selection of the things
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 1: that I was going to look for anyway. Like, if
• 1:25:37
  Speaker 1: I'm in the market for a product, targeted advertising is
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 1: actually it helps me speed run the process.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 2: On some level. But I found the quality of the
• 1:25:46
  Speaker 2: products I'm getting advertised has dropped significantly.
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 1: That is definitely a problem for sure. Also, it's really
• 1:25:54
  Speaker 1: funny having people in your life that have like very
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 1: specific hobbies and then that becomes your ad feed. Yeah,
• 1:26:00
  Speaker 1: you know, I have a friend who's recently got into
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 1: leather working and is buying all kinds of cool leather
• 1:26:04
  Speaker 1: tools and like researching stuff and dah da da da,
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 1: and like suddenly I have a lot of like desk
• 1:26:09
  Speaker 1: ponies or whatever these things are for stretching and holding
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 1: it while you'd stitch. And I'm just like, I have
• 1:26:14
  Speaker 1: no interest in leather working. But this is fine. I
• 1:26:16
  Speaker 1: don't mind the algorithm wondering if I'm into leather working.
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 2: This is okay, the algorithm. Algorithm algorithm thinks I would
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 2: love sports betting because apparently I watch so many sports
• 1:26:27
  Speaker 2: and it's my goworkers right. I think the some of
• 1:26:30
  Speaker 2: the people I go to work with sports bet on
• 1:26:32
  Speaker 2: the weekends quite a bit, probably while at work on
• 1:26:35
  Speaker 2: their phones, and uh yeah, They're like.
• 1:26:38
  Speaker 1: You're I piece the same, You've got the same demographic profile.
• 1:26:40
  Speaker 1: Why would you not be into this. It's like me
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 1: getting hit with true crime advertisements all the time, and
• 1:26:45
  Speaker 1: I'm like, I listen to Behind the Bastards and I'm
• 1:26:48
  Speaker 1: a white woman on the Internet, but I hate true crime.
• 1:26:51
  Speaker 1: I want not the true crime advertisements give me the squick.
• 1:26:54
  Speaker 1: They give me so much creep and squick, just the ads,
• 1:26:57
  Speaker 1: and I like, stop, please. I know I'm a white
• 1:26:59
  Speaker 1: woman on the internet, but like, stop it.
• 1:27:02
  Speaker 2: Can I tell you something? My ads also think I'm
• 1:27:05
  Speaker 2: a white woman on the internet.
• 1:27:09
  Speaker 1: It's unfortunate, but I don't know why.
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 2: But I mean, for fuck's sake, like especially my TikTok,
• 1:27:16
  Speaker 2: my TikTok thinks I'm oh, my lesbian.
• 1:27:19
  Speaker 1: I just want to like craft home.
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 2: Exactly well, and we joke as my wife definitely, you know,
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 2: has some of the more masculine energy. Sometimes she likes
• 1:27:33
  Speaker 2: to drive when we get in the car. We were
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 2: sitting this morning talking and I was kind of like
• 1:27:39
  Speaker 2: folded up with my knees together, my legs off to
• 1:27:41
  Speaker 2: the side, and my hands kind of like under my chin,
• 1:27:44
  Speaker 2: and she's like spread out legs, you know, elbows on
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 2: the table, you know, you know that kind of like
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 2: so there's there's a little bit of that role switching.
• 1:28:02
  Speaker 1: It almost like these these ideas and standards and stereotypes
• 1:28:06
  Speaker 1: are just basic, don't actually capture the nuance of her experience.
• 1:28:11
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and she's the one, like I'm the clean one,
• 1:28:13
  Speaker 2: she's the messy one. Like all these things. I watched
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 2: these like you know videos where I'm like, I can't
• 1:28:17
  Speaker 2: believe my husband left me this mess. I'm like, oh yeah,
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 2: I never left me, like three times that mess this morning, right,
• 1:28:25
  Speaker 2: the piles and stuff like that. It's always just funny
• 1:28:27
  Speaker 2: to me where it's like people get on their their
• 1:28:29
  Speaker 2: husbands for doing these things, and I'm like, yeah, right,
• 1:28:34
  Speaker 2: right anyway. But at the same time, I can't find shit, right,
• 1:28:42
  Speaker 2: I'm like, honey, where's the my I literally on my
• 1:28:44
  Speaker 2: way upstairs, where's my laptop? I just had it three
• 1:28:46
  Speaker 2: seconds ago. It's like it's on the counter by your
• 1:28:48
  Speaker 2: left hand where you set it down thirty seconds ago.
• 1:28:51
  Speaker 1: I'm like yeah, I am the finder of the phones
• 1:28:55
  Speaker 1: and the glasses for sure. This is this is uh
• 1:28:58
  Speaker 1: definitely the thing.
• 1:28:59
  Speaker 2: Well's funny I find her glasses and she finds my stuff.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 1: Ah.
• 1:29:02
  Speaker 3: So it's just.
• 1:29:05
  Speaker 2: I am I think I need reading glasses. I'm at
• 1:29:08
  Speaker 2: that point, old man. Not all the time, but if
• 1:29:12
  Speaker 2: I'm at all tired. Also, I'm finding like just looking
• 1:29:16
  Speaker 2: at little details on things to be a little more difficult.
• 1:29:21
  Speaker 2: I think I'm on that edge of like I'm not
• 1:29:22
  Speaker 2: sure it's worth getting glasses yet because I can just
• 1:29:25
  Speaker 2: sort of like focus and figure it out pretty quickly.
• 1:29:27
  Speaker 2: It's coming, but it's coming, it's coming. And this is
• 1:29:31
  Speaker 2: like I said, my mom got glasses when she was forty.
• 1:29:32
  Speaker 2: I'm forty four now, like you know, yeah, yeah, And
• 1:29:36
  Speaker 2: I don't expect to lose my normal vision. I just
• 1:29:39
  Speaker 2: expect to need reading glasses, which is almost more inconvenient
• 1:29:42
  Speaker 2: because then you're like, all right, right, let me pull
• 1:29:44
  Speaker 2: out my reading glasses, put them on, look at the thing,
• 1:29:47
  Speaker 2: put them away. You know. It's like instead of just
• 1:29:50
  Speaker 2: being like, yeah, I need glasses all the time.
• 1:29:52
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah.
• 1:29:53
  Speaker 1: It was like the last time I got my glasses updated,
• 1:29:55
  Speaker 1: they were like, oh yeah, you need to have a
• 1:29:57
  Speaker 1: prescription in your right eye for the first time, I've
• 1:29:59
  Speaker 1: only ever had plenty glass and now prescription on both eyes.
• 1:30:03
  Speaker 1: And it's like, huh, it's even me and my almost
• 1:30:06
  Speaker 1: perfect vision is going to go some kind of downhill.
• 1:30:11
  Speaker 1: But also if you take my glasses away, like after
• 1:30:13
  Speaker 1: a day, like I don't even notice the muscle adjustment,
• 1:30:15
  Speaker 1: like I don't, it doesn't make a difference, all.
• 1:30:18
  Speaker 2: Right, you want to get into these books, anything personal
• 1:30:21
  Speaker 2: stuff to talk about.
• 1:30:23
  Speaker 1: I feel like every week, in the middle of the week,
• 1:30:25
  Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, next time we sit down and record,
• 1:30:27
  Speaker 1: I'm going to talk about this, this and this, and
• 1:30:28
  Speaker 1: then I don't write it down, or if I do
• 1:30:30
  Speaker 1: write it down, I don't put it anywhere near my
• 1:30:31
  Speaker 1: recording station. So I have no idea if I had anything.
• 1:30:36
  Speaker 3: Someday.
• 1:30:37
  Speaker 2: Someday, someday I'll remember. I'm back on day shift, so
• 1:30:43
  Speaker 2: I don't know if anybody cares, but I'm working six
• 1:30:46
  Speaker 2: am to six pm instead of twelve am to twelve
• 1:30:49
  Speaker 2: pm or twelve pm to twelve am, whatever, noon to midnight,
• 1:30:53
  Speaker 2: which everyone I can never remember which one's.
• 1:30:55
  Speaker 1: A yeah, am is the one that reasonable people are
• 1:30:58
  Speaker 1: asleep for gotcha. Yeah, for whatever reason, that's how THEE
• 1:31:02
  Speaker 1: that he decided, like PM is the one that everyone's
• 1:31:05
  Speaker 1: awake and functioning at.
• 1:31:07
  Speaker 2: Because it's eleven fifty nine fifty nine it's still am right,
• 1:31:11
  Speaker 2: and then twelve, which is really zero, right, that's the
• 1:31:14
  Speaker 2: thing is, it's the zero.
• 1:31:15
  Speaker 1: Yeah, And this is why twenty four hour time zero.
• 1:31:17
  Speaker 2: Is neither positive or negative, right, exactly? Totally. Yes, I
• 1:31:22
  Speaker 2: want to sigh. I think I would also do better
• 1:31:25
  Speaker 2: at the night shift. My request to move has been denied.
• 1:31:30
  Speaker 2: And you know, some things are definitely harder if you're
• 1:31:33
  Speaker 2: on night shift, for sure, but I was getting paid more,
• 1:31:38
  Speaker 2: which was nice, and uh because it's differential if you're working.
• 1:31:42
  Speaker 1: Night shift, or because it's a pain in the ass.
• 1:31:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's a pain in the ass. And uh yeah,
• 1:31:46
  Speaker 2: and there was fewer engineers, like the engineers are stressed.
• 1:31:50
  Speaker 2: Oh my god. I had the engineer is stressed and
• 1:31:53
  Speaker 2: trying to do you know, a pretty simple task. But
• 1:31:57
  Speaker 2: the machine had an extra valve you had to turn off.
• 1:31:59
  Speaker 2: That's not stand on most of them. So he kind
• 1:32:01
  Speaker 2: of he started to do the task and just got
• 1:32:03
  Speaker 2: sprayed down with water and so and he was like yeah, yeah, unfortunately.
• 1:32:08
  Speaker 6: That.
• 1:32:09
  Speaker 2: Yes, the machines I work on are pretty safe in
• 1:32:12
  Speaker 2: terms of the materials we work with, no toxics. My
• 1:32:15
  Speaker 2: gases are nitrogen and ar gone, which are both inert.
• 1:32:18
  Speaker 2: We work high high electricity, but that's always shut off
• 1:32:20
  Speaker 2: when you're working on a tool.
• 1:32:21
  Speaker 1: You won't get sprayed with electricity from a loose valve.
• 1:32:24
  Speaker 1: That's not how electricity works.
• 1:32:26
  Speaker 2: So and then trying to like turn off the water,
• 1:32:27
  Speaker 2: he emowed the tool, which you're not supposed to do
• 1:32:30
  Speaker 2: emergency off EMO and so that takes some effort to reset,
• 1:32:34
  Speaker 2: and so then he took like an hour or two
• 1:32:36
  Speaker 2: to reset it. So like this he was this tool
• 1:32:38
  Speaker 2: he was rushing on to try and get working again.
• 1:32:40
  Speaker 2: I had to come in and like, you know, if
• 1:32:42
  Speaker 2: he'd just done it right the first time, I could
• 1:32:44
  Speaker 2: have been done in like twenty minutes, you know, and
• 1:32:46
  Speaker 2: instead it was because you rushed too, and I had
• 1:32:48
  Speaker 2: to go and fix it. Yeah, so one of those
• 1:32:50
  Speaker 2: which is like, I mean, he's pretty minor for me.
• 1:32:52
  Speaker 2: I went into I did the twenty minute job right,
• 1:32:54
  Speaker 2: but yeah, it was. It was pretty funny. So that's
• 1:32:58
  Speaker 2: why the night shifties here is easier because you don't
• 1:33:01
  Speaker 2: deal with the engineers who go and they're like, this
• 1:33:03
  Speaker 2: needs to be up right away, and it's like this
• 1:33:04
  Speaker 2: factory runs twenty four to seven, but for some reason
• 1:33:06
  Speaker 2: it's very important it's running during the day because that's
• 1:33:08
  Speaker 2: when the engineers are paying attention and the higher ups
• 1:33:11
  Speaker 2: are paying attention, right but like at night. But then
• 1:33:14
  Speaker 2: of course what happens. The night shift ends up always
• 1:33:17
  Speaker 2: putting out more work because they don't have the engineers
• 1:33:19
  Speaker 2: and the higher ups coming in there and fucking things
• 1:33:21
  Speaker 2: up and making changes like how do we how do
• 1:33:24
  Speaker 2: we optimize this thing so it works better?
• 1:33:26
  Speaker 3: Yet of the way?
• 1:33:27
  Speaker 2: Yeah, get out of the way, is basically with the answer.
• 1:33:29
  Speaker 1: Yeah, sometimes you got to stop optimizing and just like
• 1:33:32
  Speaker 1: let the experts do their thing. Like this is something
• 1:33:37
  Speaker 1: my mom was telling me about the early steamstresses of
• 1:33:40
  Speaker 1: the Space program. Was like they were a lot of
• 1:33:43
  Speaker 1: them were like had never gone to college, had no
• 1:33:46
  Speaker 1: idea how to write a blueprint or a technical paper.
• 1:33:49
  Speaker 1: And the engineers at NASA were like, we can't work
• 1:33:53
  Speaker 1: with this material unless there's a stack of documentation that
• 1:33:56
  Speaker 1: comes with it. So the seamstress department, the people who
• 1:33:59
  Speaker 1: are in charge of that ended up hiring a team
• 1:34:01
  Speaker 1: of like engineers to translate. They didn't actually design the materials.
• 1:34:06
  Speaker 1: They didn't. They simply created blueprints to describe what these
• 1:34:10
  Speaker 1: you know, artisanal housewives who just figured shit out with
• 1:34:13
  Speaker 1: their mechanical intelligence. And it's like, no, it just works.
• 1:34:16
  Speaker 1: I can't explain why or how, like, Okay, give it
• 1:34:19
  Speaker 1: to these engineer guys. They will turn it into engineers speak.
• 1:34:22
  Speaker 1: So that way NASA is able to intake the materials
• 1:34:25
  Speaker 1: and do the job.
• 1:34:26
  Speaker 2: Mmmmm. They'll look at the tentile strength of the material,
• 1:34:29
  Speaker 2: the permeability of the material, the size of the material,
• 1:34:32
  Speaker 2: the dimensions.
• 1:34:33
  Speaker 4: And the right.
• 1:34:34
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it was just a language thing, right because
• 1:34:36
  Speaker 1: there's like the mechanical hands on the material intelligence and
• 1:34:39
  Speaker 1: then there's the here's a blueprint that we can like
• 1:34:42
  Speaker 1: look at and like just just they're both valid, but
• 1:34:45
  Speaker 1: they are not talking to each other well.
• 1:34:47
  Speaker 2: And to me how much, you know, I hate documenting things, right,
• 1:34:52
  Speaker 2: Like it's such pain in the butt. But if you're
• 1:34:54
  Speaker 2: not working alone, the only way to be sure that
• 1:34:58
  Speaker 2: something is done and they don't I have to go
• 1:35:00
  Speaker 2: back and redo it and verify it is to document it.
• 1:35:03
  Speaker 2: And so the work might as well not be done
• 1:35:05
  Speaker 2: the lessons documented, because otherwise it just has to be redone.
• 1:35:09
  Speaker 1: Yeah, or this is the other cool thing. She was
• 1:35:11
  Speaker 1: telling me today about the Kilbowie plant in Scotland that
• 1:35:15
  Speaker 1: was the biggest Singer manufacturer plant. They kind of he
• 1:35:20
  Speaker 1: literally came up with the idea of the thing that
• 1:35:23
  Speaker 1: everyone says Henry Ford invented, Singer invented at ten years
• 1:35:26
  Speaker 1: prior to Henry Ford inventing it. And he also basically
• 1:35:29
  Speaker 1: invented the concept of having the parts from different factories
• 1:35:31
  Speaker 1: be interoperable assembly line. Thank you someone to say, yeah,
• 1:35:35
  Speaker 1: the Kilbowie plant was the first industrial company that was
• 1:35:39
  Speaker 1: like a plant that was like, we're going to make
• 1:35:43
  Speaker 1: the machines that make the parts so standard that you
• 1:35:47
  Speaker 1: can have screws coming out of different factories and they
• 1:35:50
  Speaker 1: will actually be interoperable when it comes to the finished assembly.
• 1:35:54
  Speaker 1: And that was like not a thing before. It was
• 1:35:57
  Speaker 1: just like no, like the screws that come from this
• 1:35:58
  Speaker 1: factory goes with the machines that come from this factory.
• 1:36:00
  Speaker 1: Like there's just this level of standardization on the machines
• 1:36:03
  Speaker 1: that make the screws is not good enough.
• 1:36:07
  Speaker 2: I saw always love Adam Savage on YouTube and he
• 1:36:10
  Speaker 2: was looking at a piece of armor and they're saying,
• 1:36:12
  Speaker 2: this nut goes with this screw, and that's like, this
• 1:36:16
  Speaker 2: is your handmade screws and handmade nuts, and only this
• 1:36:19
  Speaker 2: nut only fits this screw and no other screw. And
• 1:36:22
  Speaker 2: that's the level of handmade stuff you had to like
• 1:36:25
  Speaker 2: deal with before standardization and industrialization, right.
• 1:36:28
  Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly. And it was a pr problem or like
• 1:36:31
  Speaker 1: mom and I were literally putting together. She had three
• 1:36:34
  Speaker 1: different Davis vertical feed machines spread out across like a
• 1:36:37
  Speaker 1: forty year manufacturing period, and the screws were not interchangeable,
• 1:36:42
  Speaker 1: even though they were ostensibly interchangeable, Like over the course
• 1:36:45
  Speaker 1: of forty years, enough little tiny tweaks changes where in
• 1:36:49
  Speaker 1: tears had crept in that even though ostensibly they were
• 1:36:52
  Speaker 1: the same. Now you needed to keep the screws with
• 1:36:54
  Speaker 1: the correct era version of the machine head.
• 1:36:57
  Speaker 2: Well, I mean, and yeah, and it's really frustrating when yeah,
• 1:37:01
  Speaker 2: only only this bolt goes with that nut, and then
• 1:37:03
  Speaker 2: you take something apart and it's like, oh, I didn't
• 1:37:05
  Speaker 2: keep track. Here's crude, especially if they're close, because you
• 1:37:10
  Speaker 2: can almost make because most of them work. But yeah,
• 1:37:13
  Speaker 2: it's machining is interesting machine. And then I've gotten a
• 1:37:16
  Speaker 2: much closer look at it at my current job in
• 1:37:18
  Speaker 2: terms of because you know, I'm dealing with with very
• 1:37:21
  Speaker 2: large But at the same time, the machines I work
• 1:37:24
  Speaker 2: on aren't made at the scale which something like a
• 1:37:28
  Speaker 2: car or a TV or something like that has made.
• 1:37:30
  Speaker 2: It's still a manufactured, highly expensive product, but we make
• 1:37:34
  Speaker 2: so few of them that they are in a lot
• 1:37:36
  Speaker 2: of ways very custom items, right, and there is a
• 1:37:40
  Speaker 2: lot of handmade you know, you'd be amazed how much
• 1:37:43
  Speaker 2: of that stuff is you know, you know, held together
• 1:37:45
  Speaker 2: in ways that you wouldn't even want. You know, you
• 1:37:49
  Speaker 2: don't want, you know, I know, right, You're like, oh
• 1:37:51
  Speaker 2: my god, I can't believe, like modern cutting edge machinery
• 1:37:53
  Speaker 2: is being held together with like zip ties and JB
• 1:37:56
  Speaker 2: weld right, like, but it is, it is, like parts
• 1:37:58
  Speaker 2: of it are. What I've learned is that's true in
• 1:38:01
  Speaker 2: every industry everywhere.
• 1:38:03
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and it's been true since forever. Like, yeah, early
• 1:38:06
  Speaker 1: sewing machines, they were being assembled one at a time,
• 1:38:09
  Speaker 1: the parts were being made individually by hand. Eventually, someone
• 1:38:12
  Speaker 1: makes a machine that's able to make a machine that
• 1:38:14
  Speaker 1: can make the parts for a sewing machine, but like
• 1:38:16
  Speaker 1: that takes the better part of a century to go
• 1:38:19
  Speaker 1: from like, oh, yeah, we need one sewing machine so
• 1:38:21
  Speaker 1: we can make millions of these a year.
• 1:38:23
  Speaker 2: Now, there's a machine I maintained that's literally operating Windows
• 1:38:26
  Speaker 2: three point one, like before Windows ninety five or not
• 1:38:29
  Speaker 2: Windows Microsoft three point well, whatever the thing is before
• 1:38:32
  Speaker 2: Windows ninety five came around, right, the one the command
• 1:38:35
  Speaker 2: line person that computer is still it's it's yellow as
• 1:38:38
  Speaker 2: fuck because it used to be beige, right, And it's
• 1:38:40
  Speaker 2: been sitting there for forty years, and it just runs
• 1:38:43
  Speaker 2: that machine. And that machine does one thing, and the
• 1:38:46
  Speaker 2: operating system runs one piece of software, and until it breaks,
• 1:38:51
  Speaker 2: there's no point in investing another million dollars in a replacement.
• 1:38:55
  Speaker 3: Yeah, no, totally, totally.
• 1:38:58
  Speaker 1: And like lots of sewing machines out there, you can
• 1:39:00
  Speaker 1: can't find the parts anymore. But there is a part
• 1:39:03
  Speaker 1: you can find. It's just only available for industrial machines
• 1:39:05
  Speaker 1: and it's under a different name, but like you can
• 1:39:08
  Speaker 1: buy it and find it. But like they're not making
• 1:39:09
  Speaker 1: more of the original, they're just not like you have
• 1:39:11
  Speaker 1: to aftermarket fabricate, scrounge garage find like that's the only
• 1:39:16
  Speaker 1: way did you just think the song of your people
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 1: on the.
• 1:39:20
  Speaker 2: Door, Yeah, the door, my chair heading the door, the stopper,
• 1:39:28
  Speaker 2: yeah no. We do a lot of fabrication of parts
• 1:39:34
  Speaker 2: and or alterational parts using percussive force.
• 1:39:38
  Speaker 1: Uh huh. Yeah no, you just gotta get a little
• 1:39:39
  Speaker 1: groove in there and make it that groove just a
• 1:39:41
  Speaker 1: little deeper than it came. Pop this little tabout. It'll
• 1:39:45
  Speaker 1: be fine. Thank you for listening to the Wheel of
• 1:39:50
  Speaker 1: Time Spoilers podcast. Please rate and review us on your
• 1:39:54
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• 1:39:57
  Speaker 1: free episodes. Spoilers is a production of Fox and Ravenmedia.
• 1:40:02
  Speaker 1: For more podcasts from Fox and Dravenmedia, visit our website
• 1:40:06
  Speaker 1: at foxendravenmedia dot com.