Latest / The Right Time with Bomani Jones / How Tupac's All Eyez on Me launched the greatest year in rap | 02.10

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How Tupac's All Eyez on Me launched the greatest year in rap | 02.10 · The Right Time with Bomani Jones

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to The Right Time, a WAVE original.
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: My name is Beaumont E.
• 0:10
  Speaker 2: Jones.
• 0:11
  Speaker 1: Thanks for listening wherever you get your podcasts. Thanks for
• 0:13
  Speaker 1: watching us on YouTube. Subscribe, like, rate us, review us,
• 0:16
  Speaker 1: give us five stars. You only give us four stars.
• 0:18
  Speaker 1: I'm inclined to believe you are a hater. It is
• 0:21
  Speaker 1: Time Machine Tuesday. And what we are doing, we're kicking
• 0:25
  Speaker 1: off a series. This is the first episode of six
• 0:28
  Speaker 1: on the year 1996 in rap. So we're not just
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  Speaker 1: doing just like a top 10 or something like that.
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  Speaker 1: The plan is to really go through six different aspects
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  Speaker 1: of that year and then kind of bring them together.
• 0:40
  Speaker 1: So it's actually six, but it could be more depending
• 0:43
  Speaker 1: upon what my mood happens to be. So I got
• 0:46
  Speaker 1: two guests that are going to be joining us later
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: on for half the episodes. We're going to have my
• 0:50
  Speaker 1: man DJ Wally Sparks out of Atlanta. Shout out to
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: Atlanta and Chattanooga. But right now I got my man
• 0:55
  Speaker 1: Jason England. Check him out with his work at The Defector,
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  Speaker 1: a few other places. Talking about rap and really the
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  Speaker 1: world in general and.
• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Can we tell them about the other one yet, or
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  Speaker 2: are we holding off on that?
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  Speaker 3: Which, oh, the forthcoming piece?
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  Speaker 2: Yeah.
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  Speaker 3: We can hint toward it, but, you know, it hasn't
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  Speaker 3: come out yet, so, you know, I'll let it be
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  Speaker 3: a pleasant surprise, mostly.
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  Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's on the way. Be sure to check
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  Speaker 1: that out. But the first thing I wanted to talk
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: about was the year of rap, 1996.
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  Speaker 2: That, for me, and I admit....
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  Speaker 1: That I'm trying to do a little bit less of
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  Speaker 1: treating rap or music like sports, right? And getting a
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  Speaker 1: little bit too caught up in milestones and top this
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  Speaker 1: and everything.
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  Speaker 3: Else, right?
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  Speaker 2: Like I feel like in a lot of ways when
• 1:38
  Speaker 2: we do that, we, it's almost technocratic, right? Like it's
• 1:44
  Speaker 2: like we're trying to code.
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: It into something we can put into a computer instead
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  Speaker 1: of kind of letting it live as it was. However,
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  Speaker 1: I do think that if we were to do 1996
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  Speaker 1: power rankings, even if this was not the year that had,
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  Speaker 1: to me, like the best quality of albums from top
• 2:00
  Speaker 1: to bottom and regional, like maybe the first year of
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  Speaker 1: true full-on regional diversity at the upper echelons where there's
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  Speaker 1: depth from every region at the top of what was
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: going on, right? Like that's what 96 was. However, the
• 2:13
  Speaker 1: biggest thing about 96 to me was it's the year
• 2:17
  Speaker 1: of Tupac, right?
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  Speaker 2: He only lives for nine months out of this year,
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  Speaker 2: just to be clear. He's dead on September 13th.
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  Speaker 1: But even after death and before this, from the very beginning,
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  Speaker 1: before he gets out of jail, I want to say
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  Speaker 1: at the end of 95, he gets out of jail.
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  Speaker 1: He puts out an album in March of 95 for
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  Speaker 1: when he is in jail. that is an era-defining piece
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  Speaker 1: of work, even if it isn't necessarily my favorite.
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  Speaker 2: I get what it is. He gets out of jail
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  Speaker 2: and apparently lives in a studio.
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  Speaker 1: That is the only thing that could have happened because
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  Speaker 1: he puts out three discs worth of music in 1996
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  Speaker 1: and without question, I think, becomes the defining figure of
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  Speaker 1: the year.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. I hate to make this comparison, and I don't
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  Speaker 3: mean it in any spiritual way.
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: All right?
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  Speaker 3: I was sitting there looking over the Epstein files. as
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  Speaker 3: one has wanted to do lately.
• 3:09
  Speaker 2: Yeah, you gotta soften it before you start.
• 3:12
  Speaker 3: You got to. And I'm a Tupac fan, so I
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: know Tupac's fan base, and they'll come and kill me.
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  Speaker 3: But I was sitting there, and someone made a comment.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: They said, you might want to look at Cormac McCarthy's screenplay,
• 3:26
  Speaker 3: The Counselor, that was made into a movie by Ridley Scott,
• 3:28
  Speaker 3: because it's possible that the Cameron Diaz character is based
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: on Jelaine Maxwell. And I said, there's no way. Epstein
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  Speaker 3: is touching... Cormac McCarthy too? Who is he not touching?
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  Speaker 3: And did he ever sleep? He was all around the globe.
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  Speaker 3: And this was how I felt about Tupac. He said
• 3:44
  Speaker 3: he lived in a studio. He never lived anywhere except
• 3:48
  Speaker 3: on the road. He didn't have a home so much
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  Speaker 3: as he had places just to stay temporarily. But he
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  Speaker 3: was the most alive person that I ever experienced in
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  Speaker 3: hip hop. He was 25 when he passed. And like
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: you said, that nine month run that you mentioned, is
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: an impossible run to conceive of for most artists in
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  Speaker 3: terms of its cultural impact and just his productivity coming
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  Speaker 3: out of jail. But at 25, he had six albums
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  Speaker 3: and six movies in the can. That is an insane
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  Speaker 3: thing to say at 25 for a man who also
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  Speaker 3: lost part of his life to jail and was such
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  Speaker 3: a nomad wandering around this country. It was as if Tupac,
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  Speaker 3: and my therapist said this to me one time, she said,
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  Speaker 3: you're too sensitive to the world. Sometimes you turn the
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  Speaker 3: volume down on it for your own good because you're
• 4:32
  Speaker 3: Total awareness is actually psychosis. And he had too much
• 4:36
  Speaker 3: awareness and had seen too many things and had too
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  Speaker 3: much energy. It seemed like he was destined to burn
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  Speaker 3: out early as he did.
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  Speaker 1: And look, those six and six is really the stuff
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  Speaker 1: he put out.
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  Speaker 3: Right?
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  Speaker 1: Like, we're not even talking about this endless reservoir of reserves, right,
• 4:52
  Speaker 1: in the music end of it. But when you think
• 4:54
  Speaker 1: about it, he gets out of jail on bail in
• 4:57
  Speaker 1: October of 95. September 13th of 96, he dies. So
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: what we're really talking about here is 12 months, more
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: or less. It is from the second that Suge Knight
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  Speaker 1: bails him out of jail till the end is, I think,
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  Speaker 1: is a point, you know, not to steal your thunder
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  Speaker 1: on this, but a point that you made earlier when
• 5:14
  Speaker 1: we were talking, getting ready for this, was that you
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  Speaker 1: knew how this was going to end, even if you
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  Speaker 1: didn't know necessarily when it was going to end. Like
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  Speaker 1: there are various points and markers after he gets out,
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  Speaker 1: just looking around. And even I'm 15 when this happens,
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  Speaker 1: I don't have, like, I'm not world weary at this point,
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  Speaker 1: but I'm looking at it and I'm like, Oh, no, no, no, no, no, no.
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  Speaker 2: This is a short-term bargain that we are looking at, right?
• 5:37
  Speaker 1: But if we just talk about the music to start,
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  Speaker 1: he gets out and it goes straight to the studio.
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  Speaker 1: All Eyes on Me comes out in February, right? And
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  Speaker 1: for the year, I think part of what's kind of
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  Speaker 1: hard for people to conceive of also is Tupac arriving
• 5:52
  Speaker 1: at Death Row Also kind of ties into the end
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  Speaker 1: of Dr. Dre's time at death row, right? Like the
• 5:57
  Speaker 1: biggest thing at death row was not Snoop.
• 6:00
  Speaker 2: It was Drake. Cause Dre was sort of the engine
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  Speaker 2: of this.
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  Speaker 1: Now Tupac comes and everything else, you know, death row,
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: a weird situation anyway, but that first single California love
• 6:09
  Speaker 1: with the two of them, it's kind of last straw, right?
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  Speaker 1: Dre thinks he's got something for his album. It winds up,
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  Speaker 1: on Tupac's album, but it was a meeting of two
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  Speaker 1: of the biggest things going in rap at this one time.
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  Speaker 2: It's like, wait a minute, Tupac's out of jail? Wait
• 6:23
  Speaker 2: a minute, Tupac's on death row?
• 6:24
  Speaker 1: Wait a minute, Tupac got a single and a million
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  Speaker 1: dollar video with Dre that looks like Mad Max? Wait
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  Speaker 1: a minute, Tupac got all of that with Dre and
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  Speaker 1: it bangs? Like, that was where we started.
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  Speaker 3: Yeah. It's fascinating because very few people have been such
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  Speaker 3: an eclipser It's almost impossible to imagine in that year
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  Speaker 3: someone coming to Death Row Records that has Snoop, Daz
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  Speaker 3: and Corrupt to a lesser extent, Suge Knight and Dr.
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  Speaker 3: Dre and eclipsing them immediately. And there are all these
• 6:53
  Speaker 3: stories over the years where it's like dudes begrudgingly acknowledging,
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  Speaker 3: hey man, when Pac came into the room, he owned
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  Speaker 3: the room. When Pac came to a conference, I wanted
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  Speaker 3: to hate him at the conference and he came down
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  Speaker 3: the steps and nobody could stop watching. And everybody liked him.
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  Speaker 3: And that kind of energy and charisma is just, you know,
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  Speaker 3: it's hard to explain. You can only observe it. And
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  Speaker 3: I was shocked by him coming out of jail, having
• 7:18
  Speaker 3: just gone to war in his own way with two
• 7:21
  Speaker 3: serious gangsters in New York City and joining one of
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  Speaker 3: the biggest gangsters on the West Coast. And he's still
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  Speaker 3: the story at all times.
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  Speaker 4: Right.
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  Speaker 2: The story.
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  Speaker 3: Right.
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  Speaker 2: Because that's the thing about it, because part of it.
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  Speaker 1: If we're being honest with all these years, the dude
• 7:38
  Speaker 1: was also just a little bit exhausted. Like, it wasn't
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  Speaker 1: enough that you're the dude that everybody got to look at,
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  Speaker 1: and you would try hard?
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  Speaker 2: Like, why are you both?
• 7:49
  Speaker 3: This is a shout-out to Dream Hampton, who, when I
• 7:54
  Speaker 3: wrote a piece about American fiction, promoted it quite a
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: bit and was very complimentary. I haven't heard from her
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  Speaker 3: in a while, but I'm sure life is life and
• 8:00
  Speaker 3: she's very busy. But she recounted some stories about Tupac
• 8:05
  Speaker 3: when I went to a talk she gave at the
• 8:06
  Speaker 3: New Museum. And it sounded like mostly she viewed him
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  Speaker 3: as a ham who never ever turned it off and
• 8:14
  Speaker 3: that he had totally exhausted her at some point. And
• 8:18
  Speaker 3: you get the feeling when you read about the profiles
• 8:20
  Speaker 3: of Tupac and him hanging out with people and setting
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  Speaker 3: quarters on fire and putting them on their foreheads when
• 8:25
  Speaker 3: they're sleeping. Like he was just someone who was equal
• 8:28
  Speaker 3: parts irresistible, charismatic in terms of his charisma and insufferable
• 8:34
  Speaker 3: in terms of The energy that never turned off, man.
• 8:37
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like, on the back end of this, he is...
• 8:39
  Speaker 1: I feel like we talk about him in the ways
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: that people now talk about Kobe Bryant. Like, oh, now
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: everybody cool with Kobe, huh?
• 8:45
  Speaker 2: Like, no, no, no.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: You can't be a polarizing figure without polarizing people.
• 8:51
  Speaker 3: You know?
• 8:52
  Speaker 2: Like, that's how it works. Like, you can't... Not.
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  Speaker 1: People who are universally beloved truly aren't that interesting.
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  Speaker 2: And Tupac, if nothing else, was interesting.
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  Speaker 1: And now that I think about this, I'm talking about
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  Speaker 1: getting to all eyes on me, but the climb to
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: all eyes on me is interesting because he was a dude,
• 9:11
  Speaker 1: and I guess in a way that you could... build
• 9:14
  Speaker 1: a buzz around somebody back in the day that wasn't
• 9:16
  Speaker 1: quite the same that doesn't quite work the same as
• 9:18
  Speaker 1: he does now like he's in the same song video
• 9:21
  Speaker 1: with digital underground right whose big album was their first
• 9:24
  Speaker 1: one but he's on the second one he has this
• 9:26
  Speaker 1: huge showing where he comes in the video he puts
• 9:28
  Speaker 1: out his first album it's got a couple jams on
• 9:30
  Speaker 1: it but it doesn't set the world on fire Next.
• 9:33
  Speaker 2: Album, Strictly For My Niggas comes out.
• 9:35
  Speaker 1: It's got I Get Around on it, which if you
• 9:37
  Speaker 1: watch that Puffy documentary, it is very interesting. And I
• 9:40
  Speaker 1: had not noticed that I Get Around was what Puff
• 9:42
  Speaker 1: was trying.
• 9:43
  Speaker 2: To emulate to get Biggie off.
• 9:45
  Speaker 1: And the Juicy video is their version of that video.
• 9:48
  Speaker 1: But that's the all-time jam right there. That's the party song.
• 9:52
  Speaker 1: And then from there, as it's building, he goes to jail,
• 9:55
  Speaker 1: which somehow makes him bigger. Although if we look back
• 9:58
  Speaker 1: on it, making a bigger star, of someone accused of
• 10:00
  Speaker 1: sexual assault was not our finest hour um as fans
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: as men as people as anything else but me against
• 10:08
  Speaker 1: the world had that energy to it that i personally
• 10:10
  Speaker 1: could not relate to because my life was a little
• 10:12
  Speaker 1: bit better than that right but it is a raw
• 10:15
  Speaker 1: unvarnished There's an anger, but also like Can You Get
• 10:18
  Speaker 1: Away is on there.
• 10:19
  Speaker 2: So there are these kind of moments of tenderness and vulnerability.
• 10:22
  Speaker 2: Dear Mama's on there also.
• 10:23
  Speaker 1: But the defining emotion there, though, is that energy and
• 10:27
  Speaker 1: that anger that comes from it. That the world, the world,
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: not even that the world has wronged me, but the
• 10:33
  Speaker 1: world has not done anything for me.
• 10:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It's Tortured. I related to that album a lot.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: And that was introspective, tortured, angry Tupac. And then you
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: get the sort of puffed out chest, misogynist, violent, like, illogical,
• 10:55
  Speaker 3: angry Tupac on All Eyes On Me. What I will
• 10:58
  Speaker 3: do is give him some grace though. And this is what,
• 11:00
  Speaker 3: when people talk about Tupac, something that frustrates me is
• 11:03
  Speaker 3: they talk about him only as an artist. And we're
• 11:05
  Speaker 3: talking about 1996, where you're getting sort of the end
• 11:08
  Speaker 3: of a golden era, the beginning of a transition to
• 11:12
  Speaker 3: a different sort of era out of, boom bap, and
• 11:15
  Speaker 3: skills to hyper-realism and hyper-pop music and rap. What Pac
• 11:21
  Speaker 3: did was he gave us his whole life. I wish
• 11:23
  Speaker 3: he would have kept some of himself for himself. But
• 11:26
  Speaker 3: when a man is shot several times and sent to jail,
• 11:30
  Speaker 3: and whether or not you believe him believes he was
• 11:33
  Speaker 3: framed for a sexual assault charge and thinks his friends
• 11:37
  Speaker 3: have turned on him, at that point, when you get
• 11:41
  Speaker 3: him in the studio, you are going to get some lunacy.
• 11:44
  Speaker 3: You know, if he had made a regular album with
• 11:47
  Speaker 3: 12 tracks and one was about Black consciousness and one
• 11:50
  Speaker 3: was a party song, I mean, that would have been
• 11:52
  Speaker 3: strange given the circumstances, right? He's, in his mind, fighting
• 11:57
  Speaker 3: for his life. And there is something about that that
• 11:59
  Speaker 3: is so fascinating and raw to listen to. And on
• 12:02
  Speaker 3: the other hand, sometimes that sort of trauma needs to
• 12:05
  Speaker 3: be private and processed. He had no time to process.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: We're seeing him process in real time. And I think
• 12:11
  Speaker 3: that's where it is both appealing and incredibly awkward and
• 12:15
  Speaker 3: you start having your values kind of used against you
• 12:18
  Speaker 3: and in conflict, because you want to like this guy,
• 12:21
  Speaker 3: he's incredibly likable, you want to hear the story, and
• 12:23
  Speaker 3: you start feeling a little bit icky about it at
• 12:25
  Speaker 3: some points if you're a human.
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: Well, you raise some interesting points there, because I hadn't
• 12:29
  Speaker 1: thought about it in this way until now. So, and
• 12:32
  Speaker 1: you know, Thank you for stopping me from skipping over
• 12:34
  Speaker 1: a very important data point on this timeline, the whole
• 12:38
  Speaker 1: getting shot thing, right? That gets us to the Biggie
• 12:42
  Speaker 1: Smalls points that obviously we will get to a little
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: bit later. But he puts out me against the world
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: before he goes in, all right? Then he gets shot
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: and he's in jail, deals with that. You come out,
• 12:55
  Speaker 1: you get all eyes on me. And to me, the
• 12:58
  Speaker 1: brilliance of all eyes on me is....
• 13:03
  Speaker 2: Just take it for what it is. Tupac just got
• 13:06
  Speaker 2: out of jail.
• 13:07
  Speaker 1: It sounds just like somebody who just got out of jail, right?
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: The hedonism of the fact that I've been locked down,
• 13:15
  Speaker 1: now we about to go have a good time, right?
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: I imagine there's a certain emboldenedness that you have to have,
• 13:20
  Speaker 1: the fact that you survived jail at all to get out,
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: that reinforces your belief in your ability to survive. The
• 13:26
  Speaker 1: introspection that you have from being in jail, like there's
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: some great funeral dirge type tracks that are on here
• 13:32
  Speaker 1: that you get from him having come out of jail
• 13:34
  Speaker 1: just the relentless energy from the fact that he's free
• 13:37
  Speaker 1: and then add to that the fact that he came
• 13:40
  Speaker 1: out of jail even though he wasn't in that long
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: I feel like he came back to a world that
• 13:45
  Speaker 1: was not the one that he left in one very
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: important sense which is he was way more famous when
• 13:51
  Speaker 1: he got out of jail than when he went in
• 13:54
  Speaker 1: and he was associated with a crew for the first
• 13:57
  Speaker 1: time that was also super famous in that way right
• 14:02
  Speaker 1: he was the story but he they were the story
• 14:05
  Speaker 1: before he got out of jail now he's there and
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: he's with all of them and he can't stay still
• 14:11
  Speaker 1: and suge seems to love every minute of it because
• 14:13
  Speaker 1: he knows i am the most important man in music
• 14:16
  Speaker 1: right now and i just went and got I just
• 14:18
  Speaker 1: went and got a dude that was such a big
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: star that he was out here kicking it with Madonna
• 14:22
  Speaker 1: and nobody even knew it before he was even that famous.
• 14:27
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 14:27
  Speaker 2: Like like this was the world that he's trafficking in.
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: He gets shot and he pulls up on Jasmine Guy
• 14:32
  Speaker 1: because this dude.
• 14:33
  Speaker 2: Just went gold, I think, for the first time.
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: But he can pull up on Jasmine Guy after having
• 14:38
  Speaker 1: been shot because he needs somewhere to hang the whole up.
• 14:42
  Speaker 2: And now he's with us.
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: And now he's on the streets as a literal bulletproof
• 14:47
  Speaker 1: figure for the first time.
• 14:49
  Speaker 2: That's what that record sounds like.
• 14:51
  Speaker 3: I mean, he's on the tracks talking shit to the
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: FBI and DA and the COs who were in there
• 14:58
  Speaker 3: with him, locking him up. It was the defiance. It
• 15:04
  Speaker 3: was a little bit addictive to listen to. That was...
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: That was for me early morning music. And I mean, nah,
• 15:10
  Speaker 3: not anymore. Jazz is early morning music. Back then, I
• 15:14
  Speaker 3: was like 18, 19 years old or whatever it was.
• 15:17
  Speaker 3: That was like, that got me going. You listen to
• 15:20
  Speaker 3: a couple of tracks off All Eyes On Me, you
• 15:22
  Speaker 3: might run seven full courts. What's stopping me, man?
• 15:27
  Speaker 1: I mean, he starts the record with, my attitude is
• 15:30
  Speaker 1: fuck it because motherfuckers love it.
• 15:32
  Speaker 2: And it's, yeah, you're onto something here, buddy.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: Absolutely.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: Like I find so many people and it's interesting to
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: me because you live the life that makes Tupac relatable.
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: And the people who love Tupac, it's like arguing with
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: them about Allen Iverson if you want to. This ain't
• 15:48
  Speaker 1: just about what we're talking about here, right? Like you're not,
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: if you're going to try to talk them out of it,
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: there's a chance that you guys are going to be
• 15:54
  Speaker 1: talking straight past each other because you're talking about two
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: completely different things. But one of the things that is
• 16:00
  Speaker 1: a little worrisome, we talk about like, why is it?
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: that and it's points that people started connecting in the
• 16:04
  Speaker 1: last few years I've seen in a couple of documentaries
• 16:06
  Speaker 1: but what it wound up being was a certain hyper
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: masculinity right that was often toxic but very real and
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: that's what white boys related to was that part of
• 16:17
  Speaker 1: it was this is but which is kind of the
• 16:19
  Speaker 1: precursor to these angry men that are the problem right
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: now but that that brimming emotion it's It's not the
• 16:28
  Speaker 1: same as in Me Against the World because the circumstances
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: were different, but it's coming from the same flame.
• 16:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah, absolutely. And just to be clear, the life I
• 16:37
  Speaker 3: lived did help me access his music differently, but I
• 16:40
  Speaker 3: don't want anybody watching this to think I lived any
• 16:43
  Speaker 3: life like Tupac.
• 16:44
  Speaker 2: Oh, yeah, my bad, my bad, my bad.
• 16:45
  Speaker 3: I grew up in East Harlem, and my uncles and
• 16:48
  Speaker 3: cousins absolutely can be described as gangsters, some of them.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: And I was adjacent. I saw Tupac with my own
• 16:55
  Speaker 3: two eyes in East Harlem. And people have to understand,
• 16:57
  Speaker 3: East Harlem has a special love for Tupac. Little Rah-Rah
• 17:00
  Speaker 3: was two blocks away from me, who's on Me Against
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: the World at the beginning of, I can't even remember
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: the name of the song now. Probably, I think, Outlaw
• 17:09
  Speaker 3: at the end of the album. And Keisha, the woman
• 17:12
  Speaker 3: he married when he was in jail, lived one block
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: from me. He was a real presence in New York.
• 17:20
  Speaker 3: And I found him relatable in that way. Similar to him,
• 17:22
  Speaker 3: my uncle was so similar. My cousin G is so similar.
• 17:26
  Speaker 3: They can work every room. Like, you know they're scoundrels, right?
• 17:32
  Speaker 3: And you still find yourself hanging on every word and
• 17:35
  Speaker 3: wanting to pass them a bottle of liquor and understanding,
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: first and foremost, that no matter how hurtful they can
• 17:41
  Speaker 3: be in some moments, that they are suffering, that they
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: are tortured souls, and you feel this great empathy for them.
• 17:48
  Speaker 3: And you talk about Jasmine Guy and Madonna, like, Mickey Rourke,
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: Tony Danza. I saw Dennis Quaid on the actor's studio
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: talking about how much Tupac touched him. And I said,
• 17:58
  Speaker 3: this has become impossible to believe. Meaningful Tupac story. And
• 18:05
  Speaker 3: some of these were when he was not as big
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: a star. And he's still, stars are not made, right?
• 18:11
  Speaker 3: They are born. And I feel like I knew this
• 18:14
  Speaker 3: when I saw, as a child, Billy Dee Williams. I
• 18:16
  Speaker 3: knew this when I saw Magic Johnson. And I knew it.
• 18:19
  Speaker 3: From the moment I saw, in the same song, I
• 18:21
  Speaker 3: saw Tupac. Sometimes people just have that thing, man. And
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: it's a burden to have, I think. Right.
• 18:27
  Speaker 2: And he has that energy. And it comes on all
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: eyes on me.
• 18:30
  Speaker 1: And as we talk about the big things around it,
• 18:32
  Speaker 1: let us not ignore a very important thing about it.
• 18:37
  Speaker 1: It is. bangs that joints got jams like ambitions as
• 18:43
  Speaker 1: a rider as the first track is oh okay so
• 18:48
  Speaker 1: this is what we're gonna do into all about you
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: and into scandalous and in like you go through that
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: this one and you're like man it's a long time
• 18:56
  Speaker 1: before you get to a song that like I don't
• 18:59
  Speaker 1: this one I don't think has a skipper and I
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: think that is saying a lot about something with 14
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: tracks like maybe to what's your phone number joy and
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: I could kind of do it out that one.
• 19:08
  Speaker 2: Everything else, man, this thing just gold.
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: That first track, I think, I'm pretty sure Daz produced that.
• 19:15
  Speaker 3: He took the Joe Ski Love, the Pee Wee Herman drums.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: I mean, I ran that back over and over and
• 19:21
  Speaker 3: over again, right? And then the next couple songs make
• 19:23
  Speaker 3: me feel like a bad human being, how much I
• 19:25
  Speaker 3: like them. When he's telling Nate, hey, I can talk
• 19:31
  Speaker 3: about some scandals. And it's like, I'm enjoying this too much.
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: And it's a little harder to enjoy now when you're 18, 19,
• 19:37
  Speaker 3: you can give yourself... the grace of being stupid enough
• 19:39
  Speaker 3: to enjoy that. But I'm gonna push back, man. I
• 19:42
  Speaker 3: liked that Prince sample. I know most people don't like it,
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: because I've got a lot of friends who don't like it,
• 19:49
  Speaker 3: but I like what's your phone number. I think it's
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: hilarious the way they redid the chorus from 777-9311. Yeah.
• 19:55
  Speaker 3: It had Danny Boy, if you really want to fuck
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: with me.
• 20:00
  Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, like, you know, Prince samples.
• 20:06
  Speaker 2: Sensitive place for me. You know, like, I hear you.
• 20:10
  Speaker 2: Here's what I'll say about All About You, though.
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: The hook, every other city we go, every other video,
• 20:15
  Speaker 1: no matter where I go, I see the saying, As
• 20:19
  Speaker 1: I got farther along in this industry, I have a
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: much different understanding of the point that they are making.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: And they are absolutely correct. It's a whole lot of
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: old Johnny on the spot motherfuckers. They just like, yo,
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: why are you at every event that I go to?
• 20:32
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: Like wherever and wherever the stars are, you look up,
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: you be like, oh, that's that person.
• 20:36
  Speaker 2: Like the NBA is a world that is full of those. Right.
• 20:40
  Speaker 2: He's like, man, next thing I know.
• 20:43
  Speaker 1: I'm at the Million Man March, and I see old
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: girl from the Homie Nate Dog video.
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: I'm sorry. That's one of the funniest things I've ever
• 20:50
  Speaker 2: heard in my life.
• 20:51
  Speaker 3: I swear, I was about to say the same thing.
• 20:54
  Speaker 3: Snoop invokes the Million Man March twice on this album.
• 20:59
  Speaker 3: First of all, calling it a video as if it's
• 21:01
  Speaker 3: a music video. I seen it in the Million Man
• 21:02
  Speaker 3: March video. And then second of all, he said, I'm
• 21:06
  Speaker 3: going to get smart and get defensive and shit and
• 21:08
  Speaker 3: put together Million March and some games and shit. I said, oh,
• 21:11
  Speaker 3: he's just going to put together a Million March. Not
• 21:13
  Speaker 3: even a Million Man March, Million March.
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: Yes, Million March. Hey man, the bar is the bar.
• 21:19
  Speaker 3: You know what I mean?
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Daz was ready though, because you know, There's always the
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: discussion about how much Daz did on Doggy Style. And
• 21:27
  Speaker 1: the truth is, you can listen to the tracks that
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: were like old Daz that Dre got a hold of.
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: Dr.
• 21:31
  Speaker 1: Dre produced that record, right? Like, this was a much
• 21:34
  Speaker 1: more fully formed version of Daz. I think this was
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: a more fully formed version of Daz even than the
• 21:39
  Speaker 1: Dog Food record, right? And I know how people feel
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: about that one. But even over the years, Two of
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: America's Most Wanted, I did not like it when it
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: came out.
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: I came back around on it. Like after time, I
• 21:50
  Speaker 2: was like, oh, okay.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: And part of it is, I know there are a
• 21:53
  Speaker 1: lot of people who try to act like Tupac was
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: not an excellent rapper when he was an excellent rapper, right?
• 21:58
  Speaker 2: He rolled the beat as well as anybody did.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: He had a certain level of repetition and he's not,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: he wasn't going to wow you with the bars, but
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: that wasn't the point. Once he went, you were there.
• 22:09
  Speaker 1: Once he started, you were in. And he is floating
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: over all of these tracks. And I contend the first
• 22:16
  Speaker 1: person to truly Like Scarface does this. There are other
• 22:19
  Speaker 1: people that do, but the first true master, I think
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: of using emotion as a device, as a rapper, where
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: it was not simply about how, how well you could rap,
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: but I'm going to make you feel me. He was
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: the one that really, to me, like fully advanced that
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: with others also at the same time, but he was
• 22:38
  Speaker 1: the one.
• 22:40
  Speaker 3: Hearts of men. The DJ quick song is one of
• 22:44
  Speaker 3: my go-to's man. I threw that on at a dive
• 22:47
  Speaker 3: bar in Iowa City and a white dude named Daniel
• 22:51
  Speaker 3: started rapping every line next to me. It was one
• 22:54
  Speaker 3: of the greatest experiences I ever had, man. I mean, 9-1-1,
• 22:58
  Speaker 3: it's an emergency. Cowboys tried to murder me from hoods
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: to the birds. Every one of you niggas heard of me.
• 23:02
  Speaker 3: And he left out the N-word. Yes. To see him
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: hype off that, I said, listen, man, Pac had reach
• 23:10
  Speaker 3: and energy on this. And you're right, he... The thing
• 23:13
  Speaker 3: he mastered, and I think this is like, I feel
• 23:15
  Speaker 3: this way about literature. The way we talk about rap
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: sometimes is so silly in terms of whether it's like
• 23:20
  Speaker 3: a punchline thing that makes you a lyricist or intricate
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: phrasing or multi-syllables. Sometimes on some Hemingway shit, scaling it
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: down and keeping it simple makes it hit harder. And
• 23:34
  Speaker 3: he understood that. And he had what I actually, I
• 23:36
  Speaker 3: would say Scarface has, I would also say in a
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: very strange way, it's different, but most Def has it.
• 23:43
  Speaker 3: His background in acting allows him to put a spirit,
• 23:46
  Speaker 3: use a spirit into tracks that touches you. And Pac
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: had that 100%. I mean, he's got you charged up.
• 23:53
  Speaker 3: He's got you deep into his mix. The way that
• 23:56
  Speaker 3: he says certain things lets you know how much he
• 24:00
  Speaker 3: means them. You stand up and you take notice. And
• 24:03
  Speaker 3: you can rap 7,000 bars if you want and do
• 24:06
  Speaker 3: 15 clever metaphors and dad jokes. Ain't nobody trying to
• 24:10
  Speaker 3: hear that.
• 24:11
  Speaker 2: Right.
• 24:11
  Speaker 1: So like, I remember my sister is an author and
• 24:14
  Speaker 1: she talked about having studied under a poet made her
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: more intentional about every word, right? Like even if it's
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: a different thing that she does, like that's the thing
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: that you pick up. I worked with an acting coach
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: when I did game theory. I wanted somebody to help
• 24:29
  Speaker 1: me with the teleprompter and it turned out to be
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: an acting coach, right? But What I learned in that
• 24:34
  Speaker 1: was the intentionality of your expression at every point. And
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: also like a certain confidence that you have to have
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: the willingness to lean all the way in on the
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: words that you were saying at that point.
• 24:47
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 24:47
  Speaker 1: And that's something you hear in most and in Tupac.
• 24:50
  Speaker 1: They absolutely sell every syllable, every line. that they have,
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: because that is, you know what you're going for, right? Like,
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: so what is the feeling that you wish to invoke?
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: Not just, I am expressing myself. No, what do I
• 25:03
  Speaker 1: wish to say? How do I, how do I want
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: people to feel when they hear this part? And that's,
• 25:09
  Speaker 1: you know, I feel like that part of it, like
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: life goes on is the one for me. Cause look,
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: we're going to talk more about this as this goes
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: on and talk about the singles and stuff, but the
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: nineties had a lot of funeral dirges, man. And it
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: was cause a lot of people were out here getting killed.
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: Like that was, relatable content in a way that's almost
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: shameful to say out loud. But you go back and
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: you listen to the music of that time, man, people
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: were burying a lot of their friends, right? Even people
• 25:35
  Speaker 1: that you wouldn't think. Like, I had a couple people
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: that I could say, I remember when that person got killed.
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: I remember when that person got killed. And life goes on.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: It's like Tupac, interestingly, talking about, like he's talking about
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: his own death in this one. At this time, we're
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: on this record, as you say, he feels very alive
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: at every turn.
• 25:54
  Speaker 3: Yeah. Well, they kind of always went together life and
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: death with him. And I think about that again when
• 26:00
  Speaker 3: he first came on the scene in the same song video.
• 26:03
  Speaker 3: He's being carried on a chariot. And looking back on it,
• 26:08
  Speaker 3: the dudes carrying him almost look like pallbearers. It was
• 26:11
  Speaker 3: like he was always winking at death. And he was
• 26:14
  Speaker 3: resolute that he was going to die young. You know,
• 26:17
  Speaker 3: this wasn't somebody playing around and waxing morbid. And you
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: got the sense that he was planning for that and
• 26:23
  Speaker 3: he was letting you know how to feel about him,
• 26:25
  Speaker 3: that he knew he was going to burn out and
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: burn bright, right? But the funeral dirges was just like,
• 26:30
  Speaker 3: that was his thing, man. Like, how long will they
• 26:33
  Speaker 3: mourn me? It was already out, right? I can't, I'm
• 26:36
  Speaker 3: just a shoulder dam. Why'd he take another soldier? Like,
• 26:39
  Speaker 3: he nailed that aspect.
• 26:41
  Speaker 2: If I die tonight.
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: If I die tonight, oh my God. So many tears. Yeah.
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, and look, I ain't mad at you isn't
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: far away from being one of those, right? Like, I
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: ain't mad at you is, oh, okay, you're deciding to
• 26:55
  Speaker 1: do better with your life.
• 26:56
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Let me know how that goes. I wish you
• 26:59
  Speaker 2: the best.
• 27:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 27:01
  Speaker 3: And, you know, mixed in with the morning, too, you
• 27:03
  Speaker 3: take a song like So Many Tears, it's so much
• 27:06
  Speaker 3: real-time regret for the decisions that he's making. The feeling
• 27:10
  Speaker 3: of paranoia, the feeling of not being able to trust
• 27:12
  Speaker 3: the people around you. The desire to want to do better.
• 27:15
  Speaker 3: I remember reading a short story I related to very
• 27:17
  Speaker 3: strongly by some corny white author. And it was about
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: the suburbs. But it was about how these people would
• 27:24
  Speaker 3: get together at the end of every month and have
• 27:26
  Speaker 3: this one party where everyone would play Jenga and karaoke
• 27:28
  Speaker 3: and everything else. And it was just miserable to him.
• 27:31
  Speaker 3: And he got outside the house to go back home.
• 27:34
  Speaker 3: He saw a deer run across the yard. It stopped
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: him in his tracks. And in that moment, a woman
• 27:38
  Speaker 3: grabbed him back in, gave him a tequila and kissed him.
• 27:41
  Speaker 3: And he was right back in the party. He said,
• 27:43
  Speaker 3: I had done the best I could. I'd gotten to
• 27:45
  Speaker 3: the door, but I got pulled right back in. And
• 27:46
  Speaker 3: that's how Tupac feels to me. Like, man, I am
• 27:49
  Speaker 3: trying to get out of this, but I think this
• 27:51
  Speaker 3: is who I am and where I'm going to stay.
• 27:53
  Speaker 3: And boom, I'm right back in it.
• 27:55
  Speaker 1: Right.
• 27:56
  Speaker 3: And that's a feeling I think a lot of us
• 27:57
  Speaker 3: can relate to on a small scale, maybe not in
• 27:59
  Speaker 3: the same context, same circumstances, but You know, we get
• 28:02
  Speaker 3: stuck in our routines and we do think that a
• 28:05
  Speaker 3: single path sometimes becomes a singular path and we really
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: wish that it hadn't and that we could transcend our circumstances, right?
• 28:12
  Speaker 3: And that's something beyond the depth that I think we
• 28:14
  Speaker 3: all can relate to.
• 28:15
  Speaker 1: But it's also interesting because I feel like this too
• 28:18
  Speaker 1: is a lot of him projecting that idea of doing
• 28:20
  Speaker 1: better with your circumstances, right?
• 28:22
  Speaker 2: Shorty want to be a thug, wonder why they call
• 28:23
  Speaker 2: you bitch.
• 28:24
  Speaker 1: Now it's he doing.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: This right here. I don't know. I think he think
• 28:30
  Speaker 2: he was trying to be helpful, right?
• 28:33
  Speaker 3: Hey, I love you like a sister, but you died
• 28:36
  Speaker 3: too quick. And that's why they called you bitch. Yes.
• 28:40
  Speaker 3: It's a very lamentable line. Yeah. That's one of those
• 28:45
  Speaker 3: songs when I run the album every once in a while.
• 28:47
  Speaker 3: Very quickly, skip.
• 28:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah, he's like, hey, hey.
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: Another thing about this, too, though, that's interesting is that
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: it starts with Can't See Me, which is, I think,
• 28:58
  Speaker 1: the last Dr. Dre beat on there other than the
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: other California Love. And Can't See Me bangs. But it
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: is very interesting how Dre is such a, as much
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: as them having that single was a big deal and
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: the idea of him being on Death Row bang, Dre
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: is such a secondary figure on here. He's got his
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: couple of tracks, but none of them, even California Love,
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: no matter how many commercials they put it in, It's
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: not the song you think about when you think about
• 29:18
  Speaker 1: the rest of it.
• 29:20
  Speaker 3: No, and it's also, it's generic Dre to me. It's
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: not like in the club or something where you're like, oh,
• 29:26
  Speaker 3: he reinvented his sound again. This is like, didn't I
• 29:29
  Speaker 3: hear EPMD flip this sample? That's that kind of Dre
• 29:32
  Speaker 3: that we're hearing on this. Now, it sounds great because
• 29:35
  Speaker 3: the beats are so well mastered. It's like he's a
• 29:38
  Speaker 3: master in the studio. and these are great samples to
• 29:41
  Speaker 3: flip and Pac's energy is on them. But it felt
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: like this was like, we got a couple throwaway Dre tracks.
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: And he skated.
• 29:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: This too got some cruising joints too, right? Thug passion,
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: picture me rolling, even all eyes on me. the joint
• 29:59
  Speaker 1: with Richie Rich. It's just like, you know, it's again,
• 30:02
  Speaker 1: it's another low hanging fruit sample situation with the Bootsy Collins.
• 30:06
  Speaker 1: But with all the energy and everything else, there are
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: still like your required West Coast cool out jams on here.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: Checkout time too. They took it a little too far
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: when they flipped Piece of My Love on the chorus
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: for me. You can run the streets with your thugs, Boots. Yes.
• 30:27
  Speaker 3: That was goofy. But you know what I loved about Bob?
• 30:30
  Speaker 3: There were a couple things. One was he didn't cheat
• 30:32
  Speaker 3: you on a feature. If he showed up on a
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: soundtrack or on a random single with the Mexicans or
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: something like that, which was their group, I'm not saying
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: a group of people, he was going to give you
• 30:44
  Speaker 3: a Tupac verse. And the other thing on the flip
• 30:47
  Speaker 3: side is if he was doing a major project, he
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: was going to be a legend in the Homeboy Hall
• 30:53
  Speaker 3: of Fame. Drew down, come over here. Big Psyche, you
• 30:57
  Speaker 3: on one of the biggest songs here. And you're hearing
• 30:59
  Speaker 3: these verses like, man, this does not sound up to par.
• 31:02
  Speaker 2: I'm like, what?
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: Come over here. Whoa, man. He's got everybody on this album.
• 31:11
  Speaker 3: He's like, hey, it doesn't matter. It's going to bang. Like,
• 31:14
  Speaker 3: that's Michael Jordan confidence. Just get in the corner, Bill Whittington.
• 31:18
  Speaker 2: I got you.
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: He Jimmy Butler. I'm playing with them. The third string.
• 31:23
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• 31:24
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• 31:26
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• 31:31
  Speaker 1: And then he wraps it up with Heaven Ain't Hard
• 31:33
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• 31:36
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• 31:38
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• 35:48
  Speaker 4: All right.
• 35:48
  Speaker 1: Back with Jason Englund talking about the year of Tupac 1996.
• 35:52
  Speaker 1: And I think once we get out of all eyes
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: on me, that's when we really start.
• 35:57
  Speaker 2: You know, we had the vibe interview when he was
• 35:58
  Speaker 2: in jail.
• 35:59
  Speaker 1: But now we really start getting a whiff of, man,
• 36:01
  Speaker 1: he really mad at them bad boy dudes.
• 36:03
  Speaker 2: Like that's not that's.
• 36:05
  Speaker 1: Not something that really runs through all eyes on me
• 36:08
  Speaker 1: in that way. But now the interviews and everything and
• 36:11
  Speaker 1: it's like, oh, he's really, really mad at them. And
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: let me look up exactly when he decided to do
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: this because I don't know the date. I want to
• 36:20
  Speaker 1: say the date was in March. And no, it was
• 36:24
  Speaker 1: released on June the 4th. And that is when Hit
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: Em Up came out. And guys, I just don't know.
• 36:32
  Speaker 1: Here's what's so wild about Hit Em Up coming out.
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: And I want to know if you can relate to
• 36:35
  Speaker 1: this part of the experience. It's not like it came
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: out on the radio. Like you heard that it was
• 36:41
  Speaker 1: out and then somewhere you stumbled upon it and brother,
• 36:44
  Speaker 1: he was mad.
• 36:46
  Speaker 3: Never heard anything like it in my life. I'm not
• 36:47
  Speaker 3: going to say it's the best diss record of all
• 36:48
  Speaker 3: time because I don't think you can even categorize that.
• 36:50
  Speaker 3: And there was so many, there've been so many great,
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: that's a genre of rap that I adore when it's
• 36:55
  Speaker 3: done right. It became a little ubiquitous, right? In formulaic
• 36:59
  Speaker 3: after a while, but I had never heard anything like it.
• 37:02
  Speaker 3: And I was in New York city and it was
• 37:04
  Speaker 3: playing out of every third car. And I thought to myself,
• 37:08
  Speaker 3: what must it be like to be someone, and I'm
• 37:11
  Speaker 3: not new to Sean Combs, right? Like people in Harlem,
• 37:15
  Speaker 3: a lot of people in Harlem did not like Sean
• 37:17
  Speaker 3: Combs because they felt he was an outsider who was
• 37:20
  Speaker 3: pretending to be from Harlem, right? I know how much
• 37:23
  Speaker 3: he wants the adoration and approval of New York dudes
• 37:27
  Speaker 3: and especially Harlem dudes. And to have cars driving around
• 37:31
  Speaker 3: blasting that every day for months, celebrating this.
• 37:40
  Speaker 1: Like it's so mad it's hilarious like he comes off
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: the top can you imagine like what it had to
• 37:47
  Speaker 1: be like being in the booth and you and you
• 37:50
  Speaker 1: are recording him right but you feel like he need
• 37:53
  Speaker 1: to try to do something a little bit different.
• 37:55
  Speaker 2: Like you can't, you can't tell them stop.
• 37:57
  Speaker 4: Right.
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: Like there can't be any versions of that verse that
• 38:00
  Speaker 1: went through with the producer being like, hold on, hold up,
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: do it from the top.
• 38:03
  Speaker 2: No, no, no. Just gotta, gotta just let them ride. Just,
• 38:06
  Speaker 2: just let them ride.
• 38:07
  Speaker 1: Like what is, what it was like for the first
• 38:09
  Speaker 1: person to be like, yo, Pac just recorded something.
• 38:11
  Speaker 2: Let me hear it. They press play. That's why I
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: fucked you.
• 38:17
  Speaker 3: Whoa, whoa, whoa. You know, one of the things that
• 38:21
  Speaker 3: I appreciate about him, I appreciate about him, too, and
• 38:22
  Speaker 3: I think his theatrical nature obviously plays into this. He's
• 38:26
  Speaker 3: one of the great interviews of all time. You know,
• 38:28
  Speaker 3: they were bootlegging and actually pressing up real copies of
• 38:31
  Speaker 3: his interviews. I think it was his interviews with Sway.
• 38:34
  Speaker 3: But I used to listen to those on repeat. I
• 38:36
  Speaker 3: couldn't believe how great of a ranter he was. And
• 38:38
  Speaker 3: I appreciate a good ranter. And his rant at the
• 38:41
  Speaker 3: end to hit him up, where he does it. He
• 38:43
  Speaker 3: just lost himself in the rant. I don't even know
• 38:46
  Speaker 3: what he's saying. He said, I should just go triple
• 38:48
  Speaker 3: and four quadruple. I said, I don't even, that's a
• 38:51
  Speaker 3: new term for quadruple quadruple.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: My faux faux makes show all your kids don't grow.
• 38:59
  Speaker 1: Bob Deep, don't one of y'all got sickle cell or something?
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: Oh my God. You have a seizure, a heart attack.
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: What are we doing right now?
• 39:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, whoo. It was a moment.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: I mean, it was, and like you say, like, no Vaseline,
• 39:18
  Speaker 1: I felt like, at that point, was the gold standard of,
• 39:22
  Speaker 1: I'm just really mad right now, diss records, right?
• 39:27
  Speaker 2: Like, I hate these people. And that was just... over
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: some money.
• 39:31
  Speaker 1: Tupac had convinced himself that Biggie had him shot. Now look,
• 39:36
  Speaker 1: it was some, I think we all generally agree, Puff
• 39:39
  Speaker 1: did a lot of things.
• 39:40
  Speaker 2: He may have had him, he may have eventually had
• 39:42
  Speaker 2: him shot.
• 39:44
  Speaker 1: But at that point, we got a pretty good handle
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: on who the dudes were that had Tupac shot. It
• 39:49
  Speaker 1: was not big. That did not matter to him. He
• 39:54
  Speaker 1: was so mad. And I think we don't talk about
• 39:57
  Speaker 1: this enough. I think Pac looked at himself as, hey, man,
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: I'd be helping this big old fat motherfucker out. You
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: know what I'm saying? Ain't I a good dude? He fat,
• 40:08
  Speaker 1: but he can rap, and he's my friend. And then
• 40:12
  Speaker 1: he's just like, oh, okay, that's what this is? And
• 40:14
  Speaker 1: the first thing he started with is, you fat motherfucker.
• 40:18
  Speaker 1: That was like, we can't, Tupac was not, Tupac was
• 40:22
  Speaker 1: not too much to be a little, they call it
• 40:25
  Speaker 1: fat phobic, but.
• 40:25
  Speaker 2: You understand what I'm saying.
• 40:27
  Speaker 3: When he said, remember when I used to let you
• 40:29
  Speaker 3: sleep on the couch?
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: Sleep on the couch.
• 40:30
  Speaker 3: And beg a bitch to let you sleep in the house.
• 40:33
  Speaker 3: And that was all about Versace?
• 40:36
  Speaker 1: Yes.
• 40:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah. In one of those interviews, he said, Versace, that's me!
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: That was the biggest surprise for him getting out of jail.
• 40:47
  Speaker 3: Like, wait, what?
• 40:48
  Speaker 1: Because, look, if we think about Tupac like we think
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: about other people in those circumstances, right?
• 40:54
  Speaker 2: He out here, like, I'm the illest, right? He's still
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: a rapper.
• 40:57
  Speaker 1: Y'all telling me that this cat that I was rolling with,
• 41:00
  Speaker 1: you telling me that this cat is iller than me, right?
• 41:04
  Speaker 2: You can't tell Ready to Die Was me against the world, which.
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: Eh, I see why he would think that.
• 41:12
  Speaker 3: I think that also we are able to access an
• 41:16
  Speaker 3: objectivity that we would not be able to were we
• 41:21
  Speaker 3: in those circumstances. Yes. Is it clear probably that Biggie
• 41:25
  Speaker 3: had nothing to do with that shooting whatsoever? And they
• 41:27
  Speaker 3: don't mention this in 50 Cent's Netflix stuff. They really
• 41:31
  Speaker 3: leave out the gangster's who were behind that, right? Jimmy
• 41:36
  Speaker 3: and Haitian Jack, who allegedly were behind that. I don't
• 41:39
  Speaker 3: want no problems with them. Even though one of them's deported,
• 41:41
  Speaker 3: don't put me on your radar. But if you got
• 41:45
  Speaker 3: shot around your home, boys, and then went to jail,
• 41:50
  Speaker 3: and nobody came to visit you, and they still hang
• 41:52
  Speaker 3: with those people, and now you're out with big records
• 41:57
  Speaker 3: mimicking my videos, dressing like I dressed, Yeah, I don't
• 42:02
  Speaker 3: think I would come back objective like, you know, I
• 42:04
  Speaker 3: don't know if he's responsible for this. Everybody got to
• 42:08
  Speaker 3: get it. Every single motherfucker around has to get it.
• 42:12
  Speaker 3: And I don't think very many of us would be
• 42:14
  Speaker 3: above feeling that way if we had been in no circumstances.
• 42:20
  Speaker 5: I haven't, but I can imagine things might change about
• 42:23
  Speaker 5: my perspective.
• 42:24
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I just don't know.
• 42:25
  Speaker 1: I'm just so curious how many of them.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: That song is so wild, right? Like, imagine, hey, Tupac
• 42:33
  Speaker 2: made a song off your beat. Oh, wait, let me
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: check it out.
• 42:35
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 42:36
  Speaker 2: Oh, hey. Oh, Chino XL.
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Although, did Chino imply that Tupac got in jail?
• 42:42
  Speaker 2: Was that his?
• 42:43
  Speaker 3: I think that was one of the things a lot
• 42:46
  Speaker 3: of people were saying, and also that he shot a
• 42:48
  Speaker 3: testicle off or something. They were trying real hard, you know,
• 42:52
  Speaker 3: to demean his manhood, but You still Chino XL, rest
• 42:55
  Speaker 3: in peace to Chino. But- Yeah, but.
• 42:57
  Speaker 1: Out of nowhere, when Chino XL got his Fuck You.
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: It was like- Yeah, yeah. 2006 was when his first
• 43:04
  Speaker 3: album came out. Hey, and look, Chino cracked me up too.
• 43:07
  Speaker 3: He said, you ain't never seen drama. Fuck you and
• 43:10
  Speaker 3: your dope fiend mamas.
• 43:12
  Speaker 2: That's a hell of a thing to say.
• 43:16
  Speaker 3: Yeah. But it was a little drop in a big bucket, man.
• 43:19
  Speaker 3: It didn't matter.
• 43:19
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:20
  Speaker 1: Like, Bob Deep, I felt like they kind of caught
• 43:23
  Speaker 1: a straight.
• 43:23
  Speaker 2: Like, that was, I.
• 43:25
  Speaker 1: Guess what, their thing was, it was thug life, we
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: still live in it, which.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:30
  Speaker 2: Okay. I guess we've got that. And, well, they want LA, LA, right?
• 43:36
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 43:36
  Speaker 2: That feels secondary. I don't think Pac was riding for
• 43:39
  Speaker 2: the honor of LA in that way.
• 43:40
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: The thug life, we still live in it. Ooh.
• 43:43
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 43:45
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: Which is, you know, also like, those are two dudes
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: surrounded by a lot of street dudes, but I don't
• 43:50
  Speaker 3: know how much thug life, havoc, and prodigy was living.
• 43:54
  Speaker 1: I look, man, as someone once told me, be as
• 43:57
  Speaker 1: short as a constant fight for credibility.
• 43:59
  Speaker 2: And those dudes are shorter than, were shorter than short people.
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: You're getting all Gary Newman on me. Short people got
• 44:06
  Speaker 3: no reason.
• 44:07
  Speaker 1: What's so interesting to me about people with Mobb Deep
• 44:09
  Speaker 1: is they talk about listening to Mobb Deep and then
• 44:11
  Speaker 1: being so surprised to find out that they were little guys.
• 44:14
  Speaker 1: And I listen to the Infamous, and maybe it's a
• 44:16
  Speaker 1: confirmation bias that already existed, but they sound like little
• 44:19
  Speaker 1: short dudes to me on there.
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:22
  Speaker 1: Like, they don't sound that fearsome to me on The Infamous.
• 44:25
  Speaker 1: They just sound like it's a hood-ass record.
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: Yeah. They sound like a lot of people I grew
• 44:29
  Speaker 3: up with. They sound like people who rolled around in crews,
• 44:32
  Speaker 3: and those crews disguise the fact that one-on-one, things might
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: be a little bit different, right?
• 44:36
  Speaker 2: Yes.
• 44:37
  Speaker 3: Yeah. It has the energy of de-individuation. When you're part
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: of the mob, you feel like you can say and
• 44:41
  Speaker 3: do anything. When the mob goes away, you wrote some
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: checks that your ass couldn't cash, and here's Keith Murray.
• 44:48
  Speaker 3: You know what I'm saying?
• 44:50
  Speaker 1: And the worst part about it is to think Tupac
• 44:52
  Speaker 1: and Prodigy could have done.
• 44:54
  Speaker 2: A dance thing together. You know what I mean?
• 44:57
  Speaker 1: Those were two guys. Tupac, who, by the way, wasn't
• 45:00
  Speaker 1: blocking nobody's shot himself. He said, don't y'all got sickle
• 45:05
  Speaker 1: cell or something? And you can hear it in his
• 45:08
  Speaker 1: voice that he's making the face. Don't one of y'all
• 45:11
  Speaker 1: got sickle cell or something?
• 45:13
  Speaker 3: I got to tell you a quick story. I have
• 45:16
  Speaker 3: temper issues myself, so I try to keep my temper
• 45:18
  Speaker 3: in check. And it's really from my family. We communicated
• 45:21
  Speaker 3: it in intense ways in my family. I recall a
• 45:26
  Speaker 3: time when I was working in another state and I
• 45:29
  Speaker 3: came home at night at two in the morning from
• 45:32
  Speaker 3: having some drinks. And I thought I heard someone in
• 45:34
  Speaker 3: my house and my dumb ass ran toward the problem.
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: And there was a white boy climbing into my kitchen
• 45:39
  Speaker 3: and his feet were in my sink. And I took
• 45:41
  Speaker 3: his head and I bashed it against the cabinet. I
• 45:43
  Speaker 3: put him up against my fridge. I pulled him through
• 45:44
  Speaker 3: the window and I punched him in the face. And
• 45:47
  Speaker 3: he said, don't kill me. And I said, you're not
• 45:49
  Speaker 3: going to make me the criminal in this case. You
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: are the criminal here, right? So a couple of weeks later,
• 45:55
  Speaker 3: I'm recounting this to my ex-girlfriend. And she says to me,
• 45:59
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry to belittle the situation for you, but I'm
• 46:02
  Speaker 3: going to need you to think about his perspective. He
• 46:05
  Speaker 3: came into a house in Iowa City. of one of
• 46:07
  Speaker 3: the only black men that lived in the city who
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: happens to be 6'6, 250 pounds. What do you think
• 46:13
  Speaker 3: was going through his head when he saw you come
• 46:16
  Speaker 3: in the house? And that's what I wanna know about
• 46:19
  Speaker 3: the people who got dissed on him. What was the
• 46:22
  Speaker 3: experience like for you to sit down and hear that
• 46:26
  Speaker 3: for the first, second, third, and 10th time, the way
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: he was going at you? Because I don't think anybody's
• 46:30
  Speaker 3: ever talked to any of these people that way on
• 46:33
  Speaker 3: a record, in person or otherwise.
• 46:36
  Speaker 1: Well, also imagine being the outlaws where Pac is like,
• 46:39
  Speaker 1: all right, now y'all go.
• 46:41
  Speaker 5: Whoa, whoa, whoa.
• 46:43
  Speaker 2: I ain't really got no problems with these. All right,
• 46:46
  Speaker 2: give me the pin. And they jumped on like they
• 46:49
  Speaker 2: was in it.
• 46:50
  Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah. The poor outlaws, man. So many of them
• 46:55
  Speaker 3: have died. I mean, that's like, and imagine going from
• 46:59
  Speaker 3: rolling with an almost like Moses and Jesus figure of
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: hip hop And every moment you live is charged with
• 47:08
  Speaker 3: a momentous, important energy. And then suddenly, you're just some
• 47:13
  Speaker 3: cats who tell stories on a video blog.
• 47:17
  Speaker 2: Yo, it was a hell of a six months.
• 47:20
  Speaker 3: It's a crazy run.
• 47:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, it was a crazy, intense relationship.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: It was a hell of a six months.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: So we get hit him up and that leads us to,
• 47:30
  Speaker 1: like I say, in this series, we'll talk about Biggie,
• 47:32
  Speaker 1: who is the most interesting thing about Biggie. We'll get
• 47:34
  Speaker 1: to this later, is that he's the one guy that
• 47:37
  Speaker 1: didn't put out an album this year.
• 47:39
  Speaker 2: Everybody else did.
• 47:40
  Speaker 1: Like he is an omnipresent figure all over the year
• 47:43
  Speaker 1: and he's on some verses, but he didn't put anything out.
• 47:46
  Speaker 3: Right.
• 47:46
  Speaker 1: But we didn't get the Machiavelli record until after Tupac died.
• 47:51
  Speaker 1: I don't know exactly how you feel about the Machiavelli record.
• 47:54
  Speaker 1: I like it more now than I did when it
• 47:56
  Speaker 1: came out. When I came out, I just found it
• 47:59
  Speaker 1: to be just so all over the place and mad
• 48:01
  Speaker 1: and in some ways a touch silly.
• 48:03
  Speaker 2: And I don't love the beats necessarily.
• 48:06
  Speaker 1: But when people talk about DMX in 1998 and they're like,
• 48:09
  Speaker 1: he had two number one albums. Yeah, but that was
• 48:11
  Speaker 1: a little bit of a contrivance, right? That second number
• 48:14
  Speaker 1: one albums because Def Jam wanted to hurry up. They
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: recorded it in a month. Just wanted to hurry up
• 48:18
  Speaker 1: and put something out. But Flesh of My Flesh, Blood
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: of My Blood, is not an impactful album in the
• 48:22
  Speaker 1: history of rap to me.
• 48:25
  Speaker 2: They just both went number one on the charts. Machiavelli mattered.
• 48:28
  Speaker 1: Those were two records that year that are two of
• 48:31
  Speaker 1: the most important records that anybody ever put out.
• 48:33
  Speaker 3: Yeah. How I feel about the record is I loved
• 48:36
  Speaker 3: it from day one. And a big part of it is, again,
• 48:39
  Speaker 3: he was the guy who transitioned us in rap to
• 48:42
  Speaker 3: this sort of hyper-realism look at my life. And I
• 48:44
  Speaker 3: was addicted to the show. My best friend at that
• 48:49
  Speaker 3: time had been shot and killed execution style. I mean,
• 48:52
  Speaker 3: right before that album came out. And my cousin, who
• 48:55
  Speaker 3: was like my brother, was in jail. And I felt
• 48:58
  Speaker 3: that I had lost people. I felt a rage. I
• 49:01
  Speaker 3: did not know how or where to direct. And man,
• 49:05
  Speaker 3: that anger on that record was electric. It felt revolutionary
• 49:10
  Speaker 3: to me. I'm not saying I was right. That is
• 49:12
  Speaker 3: how it felt. When he was just coming right out
• 49:15
  Speaker 3: the gate, being so reckless and dismissive of everybody and
• 49:19
  Speaker 3: letting them know, I'm here to stand on this. Yeah, man,
• 49:22
  Speaker 3: I found it incredibly appealing. Now, there's some tracks that
• 49:24
  Speaker 3: I thought were really lamentable on that one. Like automatic skips,
• 49:29
  Speaker 3: all right? And I didn't even like, I don't love
• 49:32
  Speaker 3: the Live and Die in L.A. anthem. I don't like
• 49:36
  Speaker 3: LA music that much because he's not an L.A. guy.
• 49:40
  Speaker 3: He's a lot of things, but he went to LA late.
• 49:43
  Speaker 3: So the anthems don't feel the same as like old
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: school is an anthem that he devotes to New York.
• 49:50
  Speaker 3: Anytime he raps about the Bay, that feels real. That
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: didn't hit for me. But the ones where he was
• 49:56
  Speaker 3: just so razor sharp and intense, that rage resonated with me.
• 50:01
  Speaker 3: I'm ashamed a bit to say, and it still does
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: to this day.
• 50:05
  Speaker 1: So I think Live and Die in L.A., I fucks
• 50:09
  Speaker 1: with it. And I think part of why I like
• 50:11
  Speaker 1: it is... Now, I agree with you. The idea that.
• 50:17
  Speaker 1: Like, I guess this is the difference for me. It
• 50:20
  Speaker 1: doesn't come across to me as though he is like
• 50:23
  Speaker 1: dyed in the wool LA, right? It comes across to
• 50:26
  Speaker 1: me as a dude and most of.
• 50:29
  Speaker 2: Us who have done some LA time have felt this way. Brother,
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: I'm out here. The sun is shining.
• 50:34
  Speaker 1: I just rolled down with the homies and got some tacos.
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: They the best tacos I've ever had, right?
• 50:39
  Speaker 1: And like when you watch the video, it is in
• 50:41
  Speaker 1: the midst of all this chaos. There's something to be
• 50:44
  Speaker 1: said about the fact that there was still a moment
• 50:46
  Speaker 1: for him to simply enjoy the fact that, man, we
• 50:50
  Speaker 1: out here in LA and it's these girls and it's
• 50:52
  Speaker 1: this sun shining and it's like this all the time.
• 50:57
  Speaker 1: It was a bit of a respite in the midst
• 51:00
  Speaker 1: of all the rest.
• 51:01
  Speaker 3: I thought you didn't like the Prince samples though. Isn't
• 51:03
  Speaker 3: that Prince?
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: Is that a Prince sample?
• 51:06
  Speaker 3: Isn't it Do Me Baby? It might be that they're sampling,
• 51:10
  Speaker 3: is it Melissa Morgan who covered it?
• 51:12
  Speaker 2: I think that's what happened. I had never peeped that
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: until you said it.
• 51:16
  Speaker 3: I don't know that for a fact, but I just
• 51:18
  Speaker 3: heard it in my head, and I was like, isn't
• 51:19
  Speaker 3: that Prince Do Me Baby?
• 51:21
  Speaker 2: No, you are correct.
• 51:24
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 51:25
  Speaker 2: It's that bass. Okay. Well done.
• 51:28
  Speaker 1: Here's the thing there's a difference between taking a print
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: sample and like I know exactly what's going on.
• 51:36
  Speaker 3: Here yeah I feel you I'm going to give you
• 51:41
  Speaker 3: some added context too like I think I'm like 19
• 51:44
  Speaker 3: years old and I'm about to drop out of college
• 51:45
  Speaker 3: man and they cut my meal plan.
• 51:47
  Speaker 1: Off you ain't feeling this happy-go-lucky shit.
• 51:52
  Speaker 3: Right now against all odds was really speaking directly to
• 51:55
  Speaker 3: me I mean, look, I'm calling home. I ain't got
• 51:58
  Speaker 3: no money. I'm like, this is the realest shit I
• 51:59
  Speaker 3: ever wrote.
• 52:02
  Speaker 1: I mean, he came off the rip on this joint
• 52:04
  Speaker 1: with Bob first.
• 52:05
  Speaker 3: Yes.
• 52:06
  Speaker 1: Bob first is the first sound that you hear on
• 52:09
  Speaker 1: the second song is Hail Mary.
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 52:12
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 52:12
  Speaker 1: Like Hail Mary to me was interesting because nothing had
• 52:15
  Speaker 1: really sounded like it. I don't love Hail Mary as
• 52:17
  Speaker 1: much as other people do, but nothing had, I remember
• 52:19
  Speaker 1: when it came out, I don't recall anything ever sounded
• 52:21
  Speaker 1: like Hail Mary.
• 52:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: Yeah. What?
• 52:24
  Speaker 3: You know, I need to read more about the album.
• 52:27
  Speaker 3: The album was so intense in real time to me that,
• 52:30
  Speaker 3: and this is kind of like my close friend who
• 52:32
  Speaker 3: got killed. I don't go back to him. It took
• 52:35
  Speaker 3: me years to go back to really thinking about it
• 52:38
  Speaker 3: in a way that was like technical, you know? I
• 52:42
  Speaker 3: don't go back to this album in a technical way.
• 52:44
  Speaker 3: But it was produced, I think, largely by the dude
• 52:47
  Speaker 3: from Above the Law. It almost feels like a secret album.
• 52:51
  Speaker 3: What was this album exactly? How did this come to fruition?
• 52:55
  Speaker 3: It has a very clear vision. It has a consistent sound.
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: What made him sit and make this album with these producers,
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: with this dark? Castlevania sound that it has.
• 53:07
  Speaker 1: Yeah, like, it doesn't really sound like any other album
• 53:09
  Speaker 1: I can think of, and it is not where All
• 53:12
  Speaker 1: Eyes On Me has a bit of a West Coast
• 53:13
  Speaker 1: all-star runner producer. So, like, Quick's on there. Like I say, Drake, Quick.
• 53:17
  Speaker 1: DJ Pooh's on there. Daz is on there. QD3, you know,
• 53:21
  Speaker 1: he did Live and Die in LA, too.
• 53:23
  Speaker 2: But, like, it's got.
• 53:24
  Speaker 1: It's got guys whom you would expect to turn up
• 53:27
  Speaker 1: on it. Even Devontae is somebody that you expect, especially
• 53:31
  Speaker 1: because that was their weird Joey C.
• 53:33
  Speaker 2: Death Row interplay at the time.
• 53:35
  Speaker 1: But, like, it made sense. This right here, honestly, I'd
• 53:38
  Speaker 1: be forgetting the names of them above the law dudes.
• 53:40
  Speaker 1: But I look at the credits, and I'm like, yeah,
• 53:42
  Speaker 1: I don't fully know who all of you guys are
• 53:45
  Speaker 1: on here.
• 53:46
  Speaker 2: Like, Daz is not on here.
• 53:48
  Speaker 3: Right?
• 53:48
  Speaker 2: Right. Um, it's also has me and my girlfriend on it.
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: And that is pop.
• 53:52
  Speaker 1: It's not the most subtle metaphor in the world, but
• 53:54
  Speaker 1: it's also not the most obvious one either.
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: Um, now I think it gets us into that. I
• 54:00
  Speaker 2: gave you power.
• 54:01
  Speaker 1: Organized, confusing, straight bullet being standing there being like right here, dog,
• 54:07
  Speaker 1: right here.
• 54:07
  Speaker 2: But me and my girlfriend, Jay, that bang.
• 54:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah. The only thing I couldn't deal with it was
• 54:12
  Speaker 3: the foul-mouthed chick on it representing the gun.
• 54:15
  Speaker 1: You know, she was like a secretary in the office
• 54:18
  Speaker 1: who had a baby with Eric B.
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: Yes, I saw. I saw her reemerge, man. I don't
• 54:24
  Speaker 3: know how they even found the baby who inspired Brenda's
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: Got a Baby.
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: Yes, my buddy Jeff Perlman did that.
• 54:31
  Speaker 3: That is incredible. You know, it just never stops. The
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: stories and the history and the way that we were
• 54:37
  Speaker 3: talking about Pocky clips and people in real time. He
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: continues to eclipse people as a main character, 25, 30
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: years after his death or whatever. I don't understand how
• 54:47
  Speaker 3: this is possible that the stories keep giving.
• 54:51
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 54:51
  Speaker 1: Like Against All Lies is the last track of this record,
• 54:55
  Speaker 1: which to me is, it's the last track of his
• 54:59
  Speaker 1: actual factual career, right? Like this is a posse miss album,
• 55:02
  Speaker 1: but this was going to come out like this. This
• 55:03
  Speaker 1: was the plan. We had heard about this for a while. Um,
• 55:07
  Speaker 1: it is a hell of a capper to what it was.
• 55:09
  Speaker 1: Cause this was where he was when it ended.
• 55:13
  Speaker 3: This was, I don't think we'd ever heard anything like this.
• 55:17
  Speaker 3: And then we, you know, now we hear a lot
• 55:19
  Speaker 3: like this, right? That hyper-realism, look at my life sort
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: of thing. I'm challenging real life gangsters on record. Like
• 55:26
  Speaker 3: when he was on there, listen while I take you
• 55:28
  Speaker 3: back and lace this rap, a real loud tale about
• 55:31
  Speaker 3: a snitch named Haitian Jack. I was like, wait a minute,
• 55:34
  Speaker 3: you're not supposed to mention that. people like this on
• 55:37
  Speaker 3: a record. Like you, you are not going to live long, homie.
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: Well, here was the thing, man.
• 55:43
  Speaker 1: He was a combination of, I thought he, after, I
• 55:46
  Speaker 1: thought on one level, after he survived the other, but
• 55:48
  Speaker 1: he thought he couldn't be killed.
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: On the other level, he wasn't afraid to die.
• 55:51
  Speaker 3: Yeah. He was a fearless dude and something that makes
• 55:55
  Speaker 3: me bristle because I've definitely had, you know, I'm from
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: where I'm from, so there were plenty of people who
• 55:59
  Speaker 3: chose sides in this. I never chose sides. This was
• 56:02
  Speaker 3: not my battle. I was a very big fan of him.
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: But they would say, you know, he's a method actor.
• 56:10
  Speaker 3: He never stopped being Bishop from Juice. It's like, I
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: don't know, man. I think this is real. He didn't
• 56:18
  Speaker 3: act like he shot the cops. He did.
• 56:20
  Speaker 2: That's what I was about to say.
• 56:21
  Speaker 1: If he was a method actor, he went so far past.
• 56:25
  Speaker 1: Like if he's a method actor, it's a movie. It's
• 56:27
  Speaker 1: like the next level of the deep cover movie, right?
• 56:29
  Speaker 1: Like I am now actually become the drug dealer.
• 56:33
  Speaker 2: He shot at the cops and got away with it.
• 56:36
  Speaker 5: Yeah, you are the character. You're not in character. You're
• 56:38
  Speaker 5: doing the shit, man. You got to give someone credit.
• 56:42
  Speaker 5: He didn't get shot. He was at war with people.
• 56:44
  Speaker 5: He was screaming on people. He was, to his demise,
• 56:47
  Speaker 5: running up on gangsters and snuffing them in casinos. Yes,
• 56:51
  Speaker 5: this was not a man who seemed to possess a
• 56:53
  Speaker 5: lot of fear. Or as he said in one of
• 56:55
  Speaker 5: those interviews, I got the heart of a motherfucking lion.
• 56:58
  Speaker 5: That's what makes it so great to watch me being
• 57:00
  Speaker 5: little and fearless. It was what made it so fascinating.
• 57:03
  Speaker 5: I don't know that I could do that.
• 57:05
  Speaker 3: When he shot the cop and he was in court,
• 57:07
  Speaker 3: face to face with the cop he shot and stared
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: him down. I said, something's wrong with this man.
• 57:14
  Speaker 2: And then did a little hoppity hop on the way out. Yeah.
• 57:21
  Speaker 2: And you're right.
• 57:22
  Speaker 1: Him being so photogenic is such a big discussion of
• 57:25
  Speaker 1: it because the song changes that came out after he died.
• 57:29
  Speaker 2: I don't love.
• 57:31
  Speaker 1: The video was, to me, a top five all-time rap video.
• 57:35
  Speaker 1: Because it is, like, why was this a big deal? Like,
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: when the last dance came out with Jordan, I was like, okay,
• 57:40
  Speaker 1: so now you guys can understand why it's like this. Like,
• 57:43
  Speaker 1: I get why you don't get it. In four minutes,
• 57:45
  Speaker 1: I feel like that changes video. You run through that
• 57:47
  Speaker 1: and you're like, oh, that's what's going on here.
• 57:50
  Speaker 2: Yeah.
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: A really smart friend of mine, college professor, he was
• 57:55
  Speaker 3: telling me one day that for all of James Baldwin's
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: intellect and insights, Maybe the most significant thing is that
• 58:02
  Speaker 3: he was the first Black intellectual to really understand and
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: embrace the power of the camera, right? And that's part
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: of what made his legacy live on. Pac was somebody
• 58:13
  Speaker 3: who understood the theater of everything. And it didn't help,
• 58:19
  Speaker 3: or I should say it helped a lot, depending on
• 58:21
  Speaker 3: what side you're on, that he was charismatic and photogenic.
• 58:25
  Speaker 3: And it's always strange with these fans, and this is
• 58:27
  Speaker 3: where I veer away from them, My fandom for him,
• 58:32
  Speaker 3: I try to keep away from the homoerotic aspect of it.
• 58:35
  Speaker 3: I think a lot of people are fans of some
• 58:36
  Speaker 3: of these rappers when they actually are, they find them handsome.
• 58:40
  Speaker 3: And that helped them with the women. And strangely, it
• 58:43
  Speaker 3: helped them with the men. They were captivated by this dude.
• 58:47
  Speaker 3: And it does, when you are photogenic and you understand
• 58:50
  Speaker 3: the power of the camera and you lean into it,
• 58:52
  Speaker 3: because there were a lot of intellectuals on James Baldwin's level.
• 58:55
  Speaker 3: Maybe not with his precise insights, but plenty of smart
• 58:58
  Speaker 3: Negroes back then. But understanding the camera is what makes
• 59:02
  Speaker 3: your legacy live on the way it has. For both
• 59:05
  Speaker 3: of those people, for decades after you pass, people can
• 59:09
  Speaker 3: always revisit you and be reinvigorated by your presence.
• 59:13
  Speaker 1: And, Pac, sometimes you know when you're in the presence
• 59:16
  Speaker 1: of that dude, right? Like, I remember when Odell Beckham
• 59:21
  Speaker 1: was in his rookie or second year, and I saw
• 59:23
  Speaker 1: something that was him on the field, and he was like,
• 59:25
  Speaker 1: kicking around a football like a soccer ball. And he
• 59:28
  Speaker 1: looked like he could have been on a World Cup
• 59:29
  Speaker 1: soccer team.
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: And I was like, oh, he's one of those guys, right?
• 59:32
  Speaker 2: And he was like, what do you mean? He's good
• 59:34
  Speaker 2: at everything and he'll take your girl too.
• 59:38
  Speaker 1: Sometimes you just know when you're like, hey man, there's
• 59:40
  Speaker 1: something different that's going on over here with this guy and.
• 59:44
  Speaker 2: You got to respect it.
• 59:46
  Speaker 1: You can hate on it if you want, but it's
• 59:48
  Speaker 1: silly because you never had the potential to do what's
• 59:51
  Speaker 1: going on over there because they only made a couple
• 59:53
  Speaker 1: of these.
• 59:54
  Speaker 2: That was the thing with Pac.
• 59:56
  Speaker 1: Big was a different story because it's just like, wow,
• 59:58
  Speaker 1: you must be really good at rap, brother.
• 1:00:00
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: You know what I'm saying?
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 1: Like to pull all this off. The only way you
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 1: could do this is by being the dopest rapper we'd
• 1:00:07
  Speaker 1: ever seen. If Tupac was not one of the dopest
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 1: rappers we'd ever seen, it'd have been something else.
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: It'd have been this thing. It'd have been that thing.
• 1:00:13
  Speaker 1: He might've been infamous for something terrible by the time
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 1: it was over. But if it wasn't going to be
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 1: this one thing, it was going to be something else.
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 1:00:20
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 1:00:21
  Speaker 3: I will give this to Big. He was an incredibly
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 3: charismatic person too.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 2: He was.
• 1:00:25
  Speaker 3: Some of those interviews don't do him justice when he's
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: looking like a beached whale and he's like, you know
• 1:00:30
  Speaker 3: what I mean? But on the day-to-day when people were
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: hanging with Big, it was very obvious to me that
• 1:00:36
  Speaker 3: he was the center of everything, you know? And the
• 1:00:39
  Speaker 3: fact that, as he said, hard throb never, black and
• 1:00:42
  Speaker 3: ugly as ever, but he owned that and had no
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: insecurity about that. That was visible, right? And that kind
• 1:00:49
  Speaker 3: of confidence is pretty cool.
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: Can't even lie. And this ain't even, you know, we
• 1:00:53
  Speaker 2: on the Tupac.
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 1: Episode, but still, Big was helpful for me to understand
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 1: that they like a lot of different things, brother.
• 1:01:01
  Speaker 2: They like a lot of different things.
• 1:01:02
  Speaker 1: There's no easy, big out of fighting over him in
• 1:01:05
  Speaker 1: the studio, fighting over him in the street, right?
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 2: You can't tell who he looking at. But they like
• 1:01:13
  Speaker 2: a lot of different things.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: If you're on Earth this big, you're worthless, kid.
• 1:01:19
  Speaker 2: He was so good.
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 3: There's a lot of territory out there. Beautiful verse, man.
• 1:01:24
  Speaker 1: Yo, I've been trying to figure out, well, like I say,
• 1:01:26
  Speaker 1: we're going to get into Big a little bit later
• 1:01:28
  Speaker 1: in this series, but man, he was something else.
• 1:01:31
  Speaker 2: But hey, man, this is Jason England. Google the man.
• 1:01:34
  Speaker 2: Check him out. Check out a lot of the stuff
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 2: he's written at The Defectors.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 3: Really good.
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: You can check him out at The Chronicle of Higher Education.
• 1:01:38
  Speaker 1: Lots of other places. And one big piece coming out soon.
• 1:01:42
  Speaker 1: I'll let you guys know when it comes out. He'll
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: be back with me for two more of these episodes.
• 1:01:46
  Speaker 1: DJ Wally Sparks is going to be with me for
• 1:01:48
  Speaker 1: three of these. And I'm going to be honest, man.
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: I may come up with more along the way because
• 1:01:52
  Speaker 1: this one was such a good time that I feel
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 1: like we got something going on here.
• 1:01:55
  Speaker 2: So, brother, I appreciate you joining us.
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 3: Always a pleasure, man. Love to rock with you.
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 1: Hey, man, appreciate it. And ladies and gentlemen, thanks so
• 1:02:01
  Speaker 1: much for joining us here on The Right Time. We
• 1:02:03
  Speaker 1: do this three, four, excuse me, four times a week.
• 1:02:06
  Speaker 1: Ryan Brumley handles everything behind the scenes.
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: Thank you, sir.
• 1:02:09
  Speaker 1: Hit the voicemail line 323-596-7767. Remember, follow The Right Time. Subscribe, like,
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: rate us, review us, give us five stars. You only
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: give us four stars. I'm inclined to believe you are
• 1:02:20
  Speaker 1: a hater. We'll talk to you guys in a couple
• 1:02:22
  Speaker 1: of days.
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: Take it easy.