Latest / IB Unplugged / Behind IA Moderation and Curriculum Review w/ Paul La Rondie

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Behind IA Moderation and Curriculum Review w/ Paul La Rondie · IB Unplugged

• 0:00
  Welcome to IB Unplugged, a Kognity podcast for IBDP educators,
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  that tackles your submitted challenges and questions by connecting you with
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  a community of educators ready to learn, laugh, and thrive in your IB journey.
• 0:35
  Hi everybody!
• 0:35
  Welcome to another episode of IB Unplugged.
• 0:38
  We are super excited for this one because this episode
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  we're going to be welcoming back to the show
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  Paul La Rondie, who of course is a IBDP math teacher,
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  and works here at Saint Logan International School with me.
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  But actually beyond that, he does all sorts of stuff with the IB.
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  He's a principal moderator.
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  He's, curriculum review team.
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  And so today we want to talk a little bit about the IA moderation process.
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  We want to talk about curriculum review,
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  kind of pull the curtain back on those sort of things.
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  Yeah I think he's a great person to talk to one
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  because he's a great guy, two because he really works
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  in some of these parts of the IB where it does feel like for some people,
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  there is a bit of a curtain that does need to be peeled back.
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  So we are going to talk about the IA process of what happens
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  after you submit your IA’s, but also what happens before.
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  What do you do during the curriculum review?
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  What are the
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  what are the things happening behind the scenes to make sure that this is
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  as great of, and fair of a process as possible for all of your students?
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  Yeah, really glad you're here and we hope you enjoy the show.
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  Paul, welcome back to IB Unplugged.
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  We're really happy to have you come back.
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  One of our repeat guests.
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  And, I'm a little bit sad that we don't see the green headphones
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  from your, from your son.
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  I think that was one of the biggest comments
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  we saw in your first recording.
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  I certainly heard a lot from my sons about it.
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  I can tell you that.
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  Yeah.
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  But, you know, obviously, the first time we had you around,
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  we were talking the MYP to DP transition and that sort of thing.
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  But now I'm really excited to have you on
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  talking about the maths curriculum in a little bit more detail, giving us kind of,
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  like pulling back the curtain in terms of what happens to the maths curriculum
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  once we send things off. Right?
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  Yeah.
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  Well, maths
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  has always been kind of my first love, I guess, away from everything else.
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  So it's nice to talk about maths for a change.
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  Great.
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  Well, we've already asked you different
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  warm up questions last time, so this time we thought
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  we would move into a different direction.
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  And, we have a special request from our producer, Katie of
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  what is it like actually having to work with John Patton?
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  Wait a second. That's not on the. We have that on here?
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  Yeah.
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  Do you have any beans to spill?
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  I mean, that sounds like a John Patton question.
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  To be honest, he doesn't like to make things about himself slightly. So.
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  Oh, John Patton.
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  Well, you know, he's he's a he's a good guy to me, to work with.
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  Should I leave for this?
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  You're okay. I can say nice things.
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  Actually, we sit in a lot of meetings now together, a lot of meetings together.
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  And, we've kind of learned not to look at each other
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  because we we we know what each other's thinking.
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  We've got to that point in our relationship
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  where we know each what each other's thinking.
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  It's a special bond. Exactly. Yeah.
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  And, yeah, that's it's, it's important we don't look at each other.
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  Otherwise we make each other laugh. So.
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  Well, I mean, I have I have tremendous respect for you in many, many areas.
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  And especially you bring such
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  a wealth of knowledge and such a good insight to maths.
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  You know, not only all the other hats
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  you wear at the school, but just maths itself.
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  And so I'm kind of interested with how has your experience behind the scenes,
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  you know, principal examiner involved in curriculum review, that sort of thing.
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  How does that change your approach to teaching maths for our students?
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  Well, I mean, I think it's the first thing I would say.
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  I think any involvement in the IB, I’ve been and work that people do,
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  it's the best PD you can do.
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  You can go in all the workshops you want, but to do anything, you know,
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  I’ve been to do any
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  examining curriculum review, anything like that.
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  It's the best, best PD and
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  and I take so much I mean, the students were asking me
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  because I've been away for the last few days on curriculum review,
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  and the students are asking me what what I was doing,
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  you know, what it was,
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  and they're really interested in it, and they're really excited about the fact
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  that they're teachers involved in it and that that
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  that they they think they're going to get some sort of advantage out of it, which,
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  yeah, they're not really I mean, I'm not and I'm not going to do that, but
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  but they do they do kind of sparkle.
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  Right? And like, oh, you know, you're on the inside.
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  Yeah. You know stuff and that's good. And
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  yeah.
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  Yeah.
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  So, so that's, that's the thing I think I take into the classroom
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  what I learned there, learn doing these things and that's good.
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  Yeah. Yeah, I like that.
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  And through that experience, is there anything that you wish that all
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  IB teachers knew about this kind of curriculum and assessment process?
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  Yeah.
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  I mean, I think the main thing that the teachers need to know
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  is that it's teachers who are doing that.
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  It's teachers who are doing
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  the moderation, it's teachers who are doing curriculum review.
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  It's teachers who are going around schools and evaluating them.
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  All the IB and members there, they're just regular teachers.
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  And, you know, we all hold down our, our day jobs as well.
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  But it's it's a really kind of key part of the, the whole process.
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  It's not IB men sitting up on high,
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  kind of looking down on you and ordering you around.
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  It's it's teachers who are sitting in rooms
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  and having intelligent conversations about intelligence stuff.
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  And it's good.
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  And it's that's I think that's
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  what I'd like people to know and and and you know, shout out get involved.
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  Yeah.
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  I think that's so important because there's so many times
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  where you'll hear it in classrooms where teachers are just be like,
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  well, the IB has decided to do this or the IB this.
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  And it's like, that's us. Yeah.
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  When we say the IB, that's that's us, the teachers here.
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  And so I really appreciate you calling that one out. Yeah. Cheers.
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  Well I know we've got kind of
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  two main areas we want to get into with with our chat today.
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  And the first one we want to look at is like the IA moderation process.
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  Right? Like just peeled this back a little bit.
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  I know so many teachers.
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  You know they send off their ideas that kind of follow the details.
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  They follow the rubric, they market, they, you know, do everything they can.
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  And then it's kind of like, I'm not exactly sure what happens
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  next, but suddenly I get some information that comes back.
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  I've been moderated down.
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  I get a feedback report that sometimes it's hard for me to interpret.
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  So I'm excited to kind of get into that a little bit more.
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  And I wonder if you can just sort of set the scene for us first.
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  What actually happens when a student's IA is submitted for moderation?
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  Okay, yeah, it's a big question actually, and I think
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  I'm actually gonna take it a step back from there.
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  And what happens before the student submits their IA,
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  that this is the process that goes on behind the scenes is is it starts,
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  well, I mean, it's starting this month for the May session for the
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  for the for the principal moderator like me and then my team,
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  because we are getting scripts
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  that are being submitted by schools, schools who submit them early,
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  and we're already taking a look at those scripts and looking at
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  which ones of those might become good,
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  training scripts for the markers
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  who are going to be marking in in the May session.
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  So we are finding scripts and we, we are looking at those
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  and they're either going to be scripts that the, the teacher will qualify on
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  to become a session
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  or they will, become seeds.
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  Seeds which are the scripts which are kind of interspersed
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  in the regular marking and
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  generally a teacher gets about 10% of their, their marking is a seed.
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  And these the seeds are basically to make sure that the examiner is marking
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  to the standard. Right?
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  It's like staying within tolerance. Exactly.
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  So we're setting the standard as a team.
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  And with me as principal, we're setting that standard as a team.
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  And and
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  teachers mark that standard.
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  And if they don't if they're out of tolerance,
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  out of tolerance means that they're kind of two, over two marks away
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  from what the team thinks is the is the mark for that.
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  Then then they will have the marking reviewed.
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  So when they say when a so when a student submits their,
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  their IA’s, when the school submits the student's IA’s,
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  then that's what's happening.
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  The teachers are marking those, those scripts, the moderators
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  marking those scripts and marking them as best they can with the seeds.
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  Then if they're out of tolerance, then we know that maybe they need to kind of
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  revisit revisit some of the, training materials.
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  How do you determine what is going to be seed
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  sort of worthy?
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  Like you said you're kind of looking at the stuff as early submitted.
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  I guess men should know like what are you really looking for?
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  What's like hey this is going to be a great training one?
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  Or are you also looking for like this is kind of what
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  what fits the grade seven grade descriptor kind of thing?
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  Like what are you looking for?
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  A complete range. It's a complete range.
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  Everything from low marks to high marks to
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  but but we try and keep them to to relatively regular scripts.
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  You don't
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  you wouldn't want a seed to be a script, which is kind of out of the ordinary,
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  because it's kind of a little bit unfair to, to to deal with that.
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  We, we do get out of the ordinary scripts.
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  And there's a different thing
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  that you would do with those, you know, an out of the ordinary would be one where,
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  perhaps they have
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  written to, to the old, the old marking criteria or they've,
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  the student has or the teacher is marked to the old marking criteria or the or the,
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  you know, it just doesn't it doesn't fit the process that we, we were expecting.
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  You wouldn't want one of those as a seed.
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  But there are procedures in place to deal with those sort of things.
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  But for seeds, it's regular scripts where you can just check.
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  And I mean, it's a it's, it's it's a good, good process.
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  I mean, it's, it's the idea that we, we want to check that,
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  the marker is marking correctly.
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  Right.
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  Is a is a is definitely a good thing. And
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  there's temptations obviously
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  to, to mark really quickly and just agree the teachers marks.
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  Yeah. Agree
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  the teachers marks.
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  I mean that's the first guidance. Right?
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  Absolutely, agree the teachers marks.
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  But agree with the teachers marks when the teacher's marks
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  are there to be agreed with.
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  That's why we the big shout out for this is why we really encourage teachers
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  to put their, their comments
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  and their and their and their reasons for the marks that they're giving
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  because it really, really helps us to kind of confirm the teachers marks.
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  So it's better for if I'm a teacher, I want to give kind of the best chance
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  for my students.
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  It's like I should be adding comments justifying my grade as much as possible.
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  Yeah, yeah.
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  It's the I've marked hundreds and hundreds of scripts.
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  I mean literally hundreds and hundreds of them.
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  I really like that. Yeah.
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  And, and
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  the frustration is when a teacher either doesn't say anything or they tell me
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  what the they just write back the, the, the, marking rubric back to me.
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  And I already know that because I've
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  marked hundreds of scripts, so I don't need to know that,
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  what I want to know is why the, you know, the justification for the marking, it's
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  it really, really helps that it genuinely, genuinely helps.
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  I mean, you may not be able to share this, but if I'm listening in
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  and it sounds like there might be a slight advantage for schools who submit early?
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  Because there's a higher chance that a principal
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  like examiner or that team is going to see it.
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  Is that true? I wouldn't say so.
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  I mean, it's this that I wouldn't say there was any numerical advantage in it.
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  Maybe,
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  maybe the feedback could end up being better at that stage
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  because you haven't, you know, it's like 400 scripts into into it.
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  But I wouldn't say there was any, any market advantage.
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  No, no, but I mean, get them in early anyway.
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  I think it's, I think it's good for the school, you know, to,
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  to not leave all of these things until the last moment.
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  You're nodding knowingly here.
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  No, I’m not. That has never happened.
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  Yeah.
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  So yeah, just get get, get get them in when they're done and leave them be.
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  And let us, let us take over basically.
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  And so for the moderators, you were talking about the seeds
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  that kind of help hold with accountability.
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  But even before they start marking, what is the process
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  to make sure that a moderator is good at moderating?
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  Yeah. I mean, we have we have,
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  these, these qualification scripts that it,
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  that a teacher needs to, moderator needs to do
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  and the they, they have to pass
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  and if they don't pass, then there's another set of qualification scripts and,
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  and you just need to pass to be one of the markers.
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  I mean, there are two I think I'm, I'm,
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  I think I think you said standard level maths analysis.
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  Just one of the four courses is their principal moderator.
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  We have 200 markers in the team.
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  And so I have myself and,
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  and then I have a standardization team which has, which has four of us.
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  There's a French, equivalent to me,
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  a French and a Spanish, principals.
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  And then just like teams and teams and teams of people and,
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  and the great system, I think that the, the what really helps is
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  there's team leaders and underneath them there's the, the moderators,
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  and there's a process way.
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  And if you're marking a piece
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  and you have a query, you have something that you want to do.
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  You don't you don't quite understand.
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  You go to your team leader. The team leader is unsure.
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  Then you know they will go to one of the one of us principals and we
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  we can help each other out.
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  It's a very it's almost collegial, you know,
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  in the way that the way that that's done.
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  And there's no shame in getting a script and saying,
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  I don't know what to do with this one.
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  I'm really unsure.
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  And if we don't know what to do with it, then it's generally there's,
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  you know, you send it to
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  to the quality team in, in the IB and they, they take a look at it.
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  And, and so there's also that process whereby you know if there's
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  plagiarism suspected for example or something
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  so out of the ordinary or like notation isn't
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  showing in the papers because it's been uploaded badly.
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  Then, then there's processes that we go through.
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  We have places that we can send them.
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  Okay. Yeah.
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  I'm curious a bit on the nitty gritty for maths, specifically in the IA,
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  which part of the process is kind of where you see
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  the most discrepancy between where teachers are marking and,
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  moderators. Yeah, yeah.
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  I mean, we'll get onto to curriculum review in a moment, which is where
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  we've been working on kind of new criteria.
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  Because they are criteria, you know, they've lasted for I mean, it's
• 14:58
  coming up to 14 years, I think it was when I was first involved in them.
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  And, they,
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  there's they
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  there's a one particular strand in there which is one particular
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  objective in there, which is the, the personal engagement
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  which has always caused a little bit of, difficulty with people understanding
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  exactly what that means for, for a, for a math script, personal engagement.
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  Yeah.
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  It's clear in my mind, but, but, it's clearly not clear on paper.
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  So that's something that we, you know, we have to keep on clarifying.
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  Personal engagement is the idea about making an exploration
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  your own as a student and collecting data or thinking creatively
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  or in some way, making it more
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  than just a, kind of a standard report.
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  It belongs to the student.
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  There's got to be an element to which, like,
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  you have to trust the teachers comments on that too, right?
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  There's only I don't know, it seems like a student
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  can only write so much about like, I'm interested in this thing because,
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  I mean, how much do you kind of rely on the comments from the teachers
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  to justify that?
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  That is surprisingly not at all, because, personal engagement has to be visible,
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  so it needs to be visible in the, in the, in the paper.
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  It's like criteria E is demonstrating,
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  your mathematical understanding.
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  You have to be able to show your mathematical understanding.
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  Right? It's not so similar.
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  I have to show my engagement in the piece.
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  So it's not an effort piece. It's not.
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  You know, this student worked really hard in, in really difficult circumstances
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  to write this paper.
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  It's personal engagement is exactly the asking the right questions.
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  I wonder if that's actually
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  the one that has the most teacher bias, because they're the one.
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  That's the one where they have the most context
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  and they're like, oh, but I know what he means.
• 16:44
  Yeah, yeah, he really cares about this thing or whatever.
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  Yeah. And it's difficult to get rid of that bias, honestly.
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  You know, there's, I know, a lot of schools where,
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  you know, you would never mark your own student's
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  work for exactly that reason, because you can carry so much.
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  Yeah.
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  You don't mean to, but it just shows up.
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  You know, you have this relationship with a student
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  over a year and a half or more, depending on when you're doing your IA.
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  And so you see, like,
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  I know how much they work for this and I'll just, you know.
• 17:13
  Yeah, yeah.
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  You don't mean to, but it just shows up. So. Yeah. Sure.
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  Yeah.
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  Hence why that like internal moderation or as you're saying,
• 17:18
  like don't mark your own students like pass around the team. Right?
• 17:21
  Yeah. The internal moderation is something that we
• 17:24
  obviously can't happen in every school.
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  In small schools, for example, do they find that very difficult.
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  But I think internal moderation, if you can find a way to do that
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  even within the maths department, even if you're teaching different courses
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  or, or kind of looking for your region in, within your regional group.
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  Yeah.
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  Of schools perhaps to, to, to try and find.
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  Yeah.
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  Moderators to or other teachers to, to work with and moderate that way.
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  I think that's the sort of thing. We've relied on some with,
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  you know, we're part of ACEs association, Central European IB schools
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  and just that sort of regional group.
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  That's been a huge benefit to say, like we only have, for example, one
• 18:00
  global politics teacher here reaching out to other schools.
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  Anybody else have a politics teacher
• 18:04
  in which we do some, you know, moderation bodies?
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  I mean, I think that's a big advantage of being part of a group, right?
• 18:09
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
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  Would you say like that's is it
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  the how to interpret the work or how to moderate the work?
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  What would you say is like the most common misunderstanding
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  that teachers have about the IA’s and how they're marked?
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  Yeah.
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  What's their common misunderstanding?
• 18:27
  I think one of the main issues that teachers have with
• 18:32
  IA’s is the feedback they get when their marks change.
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  And it's a complaint
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  because they don't get it or they don't get enough.
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  And I'm not trying to explain that away, but
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  in many ways our hands are tied as moderators because
• 18:53
  we're told by the IB to not
• 18:56
  talk about individual pieces of work, right?
• 18:58
  We can't name a piece of work and say, this is what went wrong on this one.
• 19:02
  They have their reasons for that.
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  But I can't name a piece of work.
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  So the feedback I'm trying to give it's kind of
• 19:09
  hinting at issues which are within papers without naming a paper, for example.
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  And that's not an easy task.
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  And also not every school gets feedback,
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  because if you're marking within tolerance,
• 19:24
  if we're agreeing with the school, then we're not giving feedback.
• 19:28
  So we're agreeing with you.
• 19:29
  And I think that that can sometimes be frustrating as well because
• 19:33
  even if you're doing it well, you want to be told,
• 19:37
  what have you done? What have I done?
• 19:38
  What do I do differently this year than I didn't do
• 19:40
  last year, and this one I've got it right?
• 19:45
  I can know the frustrations.
• 19:47
  And I think that's probably kind of one of the biggest
• 19:50
  kind of kickbacks that we get.
• 19:52
  I do know that, you know, I received a kind of email
• 19:57
  in the last couple of weeks from the IB
• 20:01
  talking about feedback
• 20:04
  and giving more examples of feedback to teachers,
• 20:08
  to moderators of the types of things that schools might find useful.
• 20:11
  So hopefully that's something that we can work on.
• 20:13
  Yeah.
• 20:14
  But yeah it's definitely a frustration. Yeah.
• 20:17
  What about with academic integrity?
• 20:19
  I think that's also something that teachers
• 20:21
  don't necessarily know how it's handled in the moderation process.
• 20:25
  Yeah.
• 20:25
  So so if it's respected then we know where to send it.
• 20:30
  There's a academic in honesty.
• 20:34
  It’s on top my head.
• 20:36
  I can't remember what it's called, but I've got a, you know,
• 20:38
  we raise an exception for the script that we've seen.
• 20:41
  What the state will then do is then obviously investigate it.
• 20:44
  And it could be a very quick investigation.
• 20:46
  I mean, if a student kind of mis cites something or doesn't
• 20:50
  cite a single thing, then it will get thrown back in.
• 20:53
  It'll be remarked.
• 20:54
  And, and generally, you know, it's seen as a genuine error.
• 20:59
  But but obviously if it feels like the piece has been IA produced,
• 21:04
  AI produce sorry or has
• 21:07
  kind of like the hallmarks of, of,
• 21:11
  you know, I've marked a piece,
• 21:13
  oh, a couple of years ago, which was just the same
• 21:16
  as one of the exemplars that we had.
• 21:21
  I mean, honestly,
• 21:22
  don’t do that and those things get sent to..
• 21:26
  And then it's out of our hands.
• 21:27
  I mean, there's a,
• 21:28
  you know, that's not our job to do anything more than to raise the exception.
• 21:32
  They that the that the IB, the,
• 21:35
  the academic honesty guys will then investigate
• 21:39
  and when I say get in touch with a school and, you know, and I and
• 21:44
  I was having a conversation the other day about this and,
• 21:47
  I was saying how, how much more frequently I believe that,
• 21:52
  they're getting in touch with schools and having having, you know,
• 21:55
  for having calls with them and saying, can you show us the evidence of the work
• 22:00
  that's been produced?
• 22:01
  I mean, that's such a great thing.
• 22:03
  I mean, it's it's hopefully a big warning to people that,
• 22:06
  that, that, that they take these things seriously.
• 22:08
  And they're going to follow up on them and say, you know,
• 22:11
  DP coordinators tell you, tell your students,
• 22:13
  you know, this is this is happening and you you lose your diploma over it.
• 22:17
  Yeah.
• 22:17
  Well, and your teachers in building your process
• 22:20
  in your, in your practices such that you are in a place where you can defend
• 22:24
  defend them is the wrong word, but you can support your students
• 22:27
  when there is an investigation that comes into play
• 22:29
  and you know, the number of times we've
• 22:31
  and we both were friends with Matt Glanville and number of times
• 22:34
  I spoke with him and you know, it comes into, well, we want to trust
• 22:37
  that you are not submitting anything that you know is inauthentic.
• 22:41
  And so you've got to have a robust process
• 22:44
  that makes sure that what we're submitting is an academically honest piece of work.
• 22:47
  Yeah.
• 22:48
  And so therefore when that investigation comes into play, hopefully DP
• 22:51
  coordinator feels like we've got the stuff we need to to make this work.
• 22:54
  Yeah, yeah I want to return to the to the feedback just briefly because yeah,
• 22:59
  I've been in that situation
• 23:00
  where there have been a few times where for example, we've been spot on
• 23:03
  and we haven't had any feedback come our way because, yeah,
• 23:05
  they've agreed with us.
• 23:06
  And then the next year it's like, well, we got pulled out of
• 23:10
  and we look at the feedback, you go, well actually
• 23:11
  I wrote all those things like I already kind of took those
• 23:14
  and we got it right last year.
• 23:15
  Yeah, yeah, I got it right last year.
• 23:17
  And this year,
• 23:17
  like I'm already digging the student because they said that thing
• 23:20
  where we're getting sort of pulled back a bit more.
• 23:22
  And you know, sometimes they just say that
• 23:23
  feedback can be a bit of the frustrating bit.
• 23:25
  So I wonder, can you expand a little bit more on like
• 23:28
  how the feedback report is generated?
• 23:29
  You kind of alluded to it a little bit earlier.
• 23:31
  You can't, you know, identify specific piece of work.
• 23:34
  But how does like a school get their own specific feedback?
• 23:37
  Yeah.
• 23:38
  So as we as we're marking, we obviously we're writing on on scripts
• 23:44
  where we are awarding levels or so.
• 23:47
  We tend to tend to concentrate on where levels change.
• 23:50
  So again, it's, it's, it's not necessarily helpful if, if it's staying the same,
• 23:55
  but it, but concentrating on where levels are, where levels are changing.
• 23:59
  And so so what would happen is
• 24:02
  a moderator gets three scripts from a school.
• 24:06
  So they get those three scripts from the school.
• 24:08
  And if those scripts are within tolerance, if the if the moderator agrees with them
• 24:14
  essentially then the schools marks will stay the same.
• 24:18
  And no feedback is is given.
• 24:21
  If the three scripts, one of them is out of tolerance,
• 24:24
  or at least one of them is out of tolerance, then up to ten,
• 24:28
  making up to a another ten, depending how many students there are.
• 24:31
  All of the other scripts are sort of given over to ten to the same.
• 24:35
  Yeah.
• 24:36
  It's our sample was given over and, and so, so those are marks, you know,
• 24:40
  it might be the all of the rest are okay.
• 24:42
  And it was just this one that was.
• 24:44
  In which case the moderating factor would be very small or zero.
• 24:48
  What the mark by which you would change.
• 24:51
  And it could be that a number of them are.
• 24:53
  So as you're marking
• 24:54
  these additional scripts, then you are kind of making a judgment
• 24:58
  on, on on those and what's, what's going, what's going awry.
• 25:02
  And it's not actually until you get to the end of the process,
• 25:06
  and you go into the,
• 25:08
  and I'm asked to produce feedback that
• 25:10
  I realized that these ten scripts were all from the same school.
• 25:13
  Up until that point, I didn't even know.
• 25:15
  Yeah. You know, I I've just marked I'm just marking. I'm just marking.
• 25:18
  So I'm not having any sort of, like, kind of conscious bias over the fact I got
• 25:24
  this school was terrible in the last scripts there is for it's
• 25:27
  probably going to be terrible in this script or, or or anything like that.
• 25:31
  It's just basically when I get to the end and then I know that I have marked
• 25:34
  ten from this, and then I can go and have a look at the marks
• 25:37
  and have a look at the scripts and say, okay,
• 25:40
  criteria C
• 25:41
  there, you know, that's where mistakes being made.
• 25:44
  Most often that's the feedback I'm going to give to the,
• 25:47
  to the, to the school that that's probably where they need
• 25:49
  to concentrate their practices in the next year and, and recommend some.
• 25:53
  Is that decision at team leader or is that a principal moderator?
• 25:57
  Because like as a IA moderator
• 25:59
  I just kind of mark them straight through and go through that.
• 26:02
  Yeah.
• 26:02
  Who's kind of making that judgment I guess?
• 26:05
  The judgment about about the final.
• 26:08
  Yeah.
• 26:08
  This is all criteria C
• 26:10
  is where you needed
• 26:10
  to, we should.. In the feedback that you're giving to the school
• 26:13
  that the moderator will give that feedback to the school.
• 26:16
  And then I, I as principal, I kind of get feedback
• 26:20
  from all of the team, all of my team leaders.
• 26:25
  And from that that's where the subject report is, is generated.
• 26:29
  So if we have noted that in this session there has been a general misunderstanding
• 26:34
  of criteria C,
• 26:36
  for example, then that's something that we can bring into the subject report.
• 26:39
  And again big shout out for subject reports.
• 26:41
  I think that that really, really important,
• 26:44
  part of the process for schools teachers should be reading them
• 26:47
  and, and particularly just before they're about to introduce the,
• 26:51
  you know, an IA for example, they should or again when they go to mark them.
• 26:54
  Yeah. Exactly. Yeah.
• 26:55
  It's just yeah it's it's a
• 26:58
  yeah.
• 26:59
  It's a, it's a big, big process and
• 27:02
  but but it kind of, I mean, I kind of make sense.
• 27:05
  Yeah. Kind of makes sense to me. Anyway. Yeah.
• 27:07
  When you're a teacher and you're giving a lot of feedback
• 27:10
  to a student, you kind of have a certain idea
• 27:11
  of what you hope the student will take from it. Yeah.
• 27:14
  The expectations versus reality are sometimes really different,
• 27:17
  and I'd imagine it's the same with also giving feedback on IA
• 27:20
  moderation to the teachers.
• 27:25
  Sounds like some personal experience.
• 27:26
  No, it's just the number of times I've written on a, on a, on a feedback
• 27:30
  saying, please provide comment on the script.
• 27:34
  You know, it's just like, most people would listen.
• 27:37
  Yeah. Okay.
• 27:38
  So step one, please write comments on your IA’s.
• 27:43
  Great.
• 27:43
  Step two how in a perfect world, you hand over a bunch of feedback to a school?
• 27:48
  Maybe especially one that has a really big deviation.
• 27:51
  What would you hope that that school would do with the feedback?
• 27:57
  Because it does take you guys a long time to give that kind of feedback.
• 28:00
  Yeah, sure.
• 28:02
  Well, training I guess would be I mean, either internally to,
• 28:05
  to to reflect as a department and look back over those scripts.
• 28:09
  I mean, you can you can request them back from the,
• 28:11
  from the IB as well and have a look and see, you know,
• 28:15
  maybe you don't entirely agree, but it's good to have the discussions.
• 28:18
  It's it's a maybe get that get those discussions going within the department.
• 28:24
  And workshops are available as well.
• 28:28
  If it's, you know, if you feel like it's a kind of a serious issue.
• 28:32
  So I think that there's, there's, you know, there's training, training
• 28:36
  that can be done.
• 28:37
  And sometimes, you know, it can be just a minor tweak.
• 28:40
  It doesn't it's not it's rarely,
• 28:44
  I'm making it sound pretty bleak.
• 28:45
  I mean, it's not in the majority.
• 28:47
  The majority majority of schools are intolerant, right?
• 28:51
  It's a we're all and you're talking about those ones that aren't right?
• 28:54
  And of course those are the most kind of those the ones you hear about the most.
• 28:58
  That's the those are the ones who are on Facebook
• 29:00
  forums and, and various, places who are saying,
• 29:04
  and I know I'm always moderated, you know, maybe there's a reflection there.
• 29:07
  It's also the part that I at least from my experience, we've done
• 29:10
  a lot of different webinars
• 29:12
  on different things that Kognity about either the IA’s or the exams or whatever.
• 29:16
  And there is nothing that lights a fire like a group of teachers
• 29:21
  who get in front of a moderator, especially a principal, and be like,
• 29:27
  well, three years ago I had a student and I got this and I got marked out it.
• 29:31
  There's really a, like a deep frustration or misunderstanding that comes
• 29:36
  I noticed, especially with the IA’s. I probably get it wrong
• 29:40
  occasionally I hold my hands up, you know, or moderators probably gets it wrong
• 29:43
  occasionally, but we are genuinely like honest
• 29:47
  and doing our jobs, you know, and
• 29:51
  and not trying to I think I think, you know,
• 29:54
  I have a great team in my in stand level maths.
• 29:58
  And I think we've really got this understanding that, that
• 30:01
  we want to agree with the teacher and we want the student to do well.
• 30:05
  And we, and I think that we have a really realistic understanding of what
• 30:09
  we expect of a standard level analysis
• 30:13
  student and, and, and, and that's really helpful.
• 30:16
  So having a great team really helps.
• 30:20
  Becoming a better IBDP
• 30:22
  educator is a daily practice informed through reading, research,
• 30:25
  personal experience, and episodes from IB Unplugged,
• 30:28
  like the one you're listening to right now.
• 30:31
  But sometimes the show can go a bit too quickly,
• 30:33
  or we simply forget some of the key points
• 30:35
  once we're out of the car or back from our walk.
• 30:37
  So to revisit the content in a condensed version, you can download
• 30:41
  the episode summary at kognity.com/ibunplugged.
• 30:45
  You'll find useful links to other resources and exciting
• 30:48
  bits of information that you can use immediately in your daily practice.
• 30:52
  So, now back to the show.
• 30:55
  Thanks so much, Paul.
• 30:57
  It's good to peel back the IA a little bit and kind of understand.
• 31:00
  I know we're talking maths specifically, but you can see how this applies
• 31:03
  to every other subject really in the IA process.
• 31:05
  And so that's really quite useful.
• 31:07
  I mean, you know, you bring like I said at the start,
• 31:10
  you bring such a wealth of experience and knowledge,
• 31:12
  not just in maths but of course with an AIB as well.
• 31:15
  And I know let's maybe pivot over to the second thing
• 31:17
  we want to talk about today, which is of course curriculum review.
• 31:20
  And I know you've kind of just come back from part of that curriculum view
• 31:23
  and some of those things that you were doing.
• 31:24
  So, you know, I'm interested in if we can kind of clarify
• 31:27
  this a bit more for people.
• 31:28
  What is the curriculum review process and how does that look like?
• 31:31
  So yeah, can you just kind of walk us through that?
• 31:34
  What is that curriculum review process
• 31:35
  look like from initial research to then final publication?
• 31:39
  What are you looking for?
• 31:40
  How do you kind of work through it?
• 31:41
  Yeah, I mean, it's it's a seven year process.
• 31:43
  I kind of got involved in curriculum review to what,
• 31:48
  I mean, my third one now, and it was because I was an examiner and,
• 31:53
  as an examiner, I,
• 31:56
  was marking IA’s
• 31:58
  and they, the,
• 32:01
  the IB put out a kind of an advert saying,
• 32:05
  is anybody interested in being into, in curriculum review?
• 32:08
  Right. I can't remember what it was.
• 32:09
  Again, you know,
• 32:10
  if it's 200 words on what you think
• 32:12
  of the current IA structure or something like that.
• 32:15
  And you didn't hold back.
• 32:18
  Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, exactly.
• 32:19
  And so you fill in, you know, fill in a form and and, and said what I felt.
• 32:24
  And good things, bad things.
• 32:25
  And I felt I probably came across as reasonably reasoned on this and,
• 32:30
  well, okay.
• 32:30
  That's somebody
• 32:31
  and so I, I ended up being invited, invited along, as was 20, 20 years ago.
• 32:36
  Something around that, invited along to that one.
• 32:40
  So it was quite a youngish teacher, you know, not hugely experienced and,
• 32:46
  and that felt good, you know, that felt good to me professionally and,
• 32:49
  and also it made me realize when I walked into a room and there were people from
• 32:55
  literally around the world,
• 32:57
  from big school to small school to to
• 33:00
  a state school to private school, to every single
• 33:03
  kind of walk of life is represented in the room, every type of school.
• 33:07
  And that's so deliberate.
• 33:08
  By the way, the IB, that process of curriculum
• 33:11
  review being representative,
• 33:14
  and that was an amazing kind of thing to start being being part of.
• 33:18
  And it's actually through that that I ended up
• 33:19
  becoming principal moderator as well. You know.
• 33:21
  So yeah, so that, that, that process of, of getting people to write in
• 33:27
  and give the, the current opinions is literally where we start.
• 33:31
  So when we walk into curriculum review, then there is,
• 33:35
  you know, sheets of or kind of emails full of, of, of all of the feedback
• 33:40
  that's happened and whether that be from, I mean, this current curriculum review,
• 33:45
  that was the usual kind of teacher feedback on the current IA, plus,
• 33:50
  alumni and, teacher survey and
• 33:55
  principal moderators had written in and they had done independent research.
• 34:01
  Looked into various different
• 34:04
  systems around the world and so on.
• 34:06
  And so it's a massive kind of like..
• 34:08
  There's a reason it takes years to do it. Yes.
• 34:12
  You get that collection of data and that's our effort.
• 34:14
  That's literally the first hour or two hours is just kind of digesting
• 34:17
  what is the current feeling.
• 34:20
  Then on top of that, there are
• 34:23
  kind of IB things that we are told about, you know.
• 34:28
  So for example, there's no secret I think (I think).
• 34:32
  We can edit it out.
• 34:36
  You know, the IB diploma
• 34:39
  program can be a stressful, stressful experience for students.
• 34:43
  It comes across as a stressful experience for students and
• 34:47
  again, the IB
• 34:48
  don't want that to be their kind of guy thing, right?
• 34:52
  They don't want to be associated
• 34:54
  with students talking about it being like a hellish experience.
• 34:57
  Exactly.
• 34:58
  And rightly so.
• 34:59
  They, you know, they they
• 35:01
  so constantly looking for ways that that might be kind of alleviated.
• 35:05
  And that was definitely one of the focuses the,
• 35:07
  you know, from, from now is that the student experience
• 35:11
  needs to be a nice experience.
• 35:14
  You know, not not a stressful experience.
• 35:17
  Somebody went on the Reddit, threads of the IB with the students.
• 35:21
  Yeah. Okay.
• 35:23
  So then again, so when we are and I was only concentrating on the IA
• 35:27
  side of things, there's a whole curriculum review going on with the curriculum,
• 35:31
  you know, with the teaching curriculum, which I wasn't involved in.
• 35:34
  So it's just for the IA part of it, you know,
• 35:37
  how does this IA that we're doing,
• 35:40
  how does that add to the student stress levels and pressure and so on?
• 35:45
  And what can we do about it?
• 35:46
  You know, and and then there's the teacher stress levels
• 35:49
  and how kind of like frustrated they might be.
• 35:52
  You know, as you mentioned about some of the feedback or the or the,
• 35:57
  or the
• 35:57
  inconsistencies that might come out of the marking,
• 36:00
  is that the fault of the criteria?
• 36:01
  So what can we do? How can we make those more valid?
• 36:04
  And how can we kind of make that a better system as well?
• 36:07
  So we have to we have to kind of consider what else is going on.
• 36:12
  So I might you know,
• 36:13
  I've been as I said,
• 36:14
  I've been involved in this IA curriculum review for a number of years.
• 36:17
  So, you know, I feel kind of like
• 36:20
  responsible for it.
• 36:22
  I should hope so, Paul.
• 36:23
  Yeah. Yeah, yeah.
• 36:25
  If anyone would.
• 36:26
  I've got skill in the game. Right?
• 36:27
  You know and, and so when we're standing, sitting in a room,
• 36:31
  it feels, you know, you feel kind of like, okay..
• 36:34
  I got the weight on my shoulders. Yeah. And.
• 36:36
  But it's not just that.
• 36:37
  It's like, I think the IA that we've just, you know, the system
• 36:40
  that we're going through at the moment is a good it's a good IA. And,
• 36:45
  but, you know, we have to be critical.
• 36:47
  I have to be critical of myself
• 36:48
  and be critical of the process, and I gotta try and make it better.
• 36:51
  And, and so it's, it's it's been
• 36:55
  it's been it's been a fantastic experience just to go through it again.
• 36:58
  Well, and I mean, presumably,
• 37:00
  I think the thing about the IA that most teachers can appreciate is it's
• 37:03
  a way to assess parts of this curriculum that can't be assessed in paper.
• 37:07
  Right?
• 37:07
  If they're gonna sit this paper at the end of the program,
• 37:10
  what are how am I going to be able to demonstrate the skills
• 37:12
  and the other sort of knowledge that somebody might be able to have?
• 37:15
  How can I figure out their analysis and evaluation, for example?
• 37:20
  But I can't necessarily assess in the paper. Yeah. Yeah.
• 37:22
  It's absolutely the, the one of the again, one of the starting points for this
• 37:26
  particular IA
• 37:30
  is the criteria changing.
• 37:32
  It's it's in the curriculum review report.
• 37:34
  So I don't you know, I'm not giving any secrets away that the,
• 37:37
  the set up is there's a problem specification section.
• 37:41
  There is a abstraction computation and then interpretation, which is,
• 37:46
  you know, basically the inquiry cycle. So
• 37:50
  and strong.
• 37:51
  That's strong.
• 37:52
  You know, because the inquiry cycle is such an important part of of,
• 37:55
  of, of, education.
• 37:59
  Problem specification
• 38:01
  can't be examined, you know, put on a paper.
• 38:04
  There's no, you know, how the problem specification is done by the exam, right?
• 38:09
  It's not done by the student.
• 38:10
  You can do abstraction, you can do computation,
• 38:13
  you can do a substation on the paper, but you can't do problem specification.
• 38:15
  Right?
• 38:16
  So that belongs in an IA.
• 38:18
  So an IA has to exist.
• 38:19
  If we want to to assess that side of things
• 38:23
  then we need an IA and so problem specification
• 38:27
  becomes such an a massive part of what the IA is going to be.
• 38:30
  Yeah.
• 38:31
  And that's, you know, that's some of the, the, what we've been working
• 38:34
  on is, teacher support, materials
• 38:37
  that will help schools to deliver,
• 38:43
  strong problem specifications from their students
• 38:45
  or students to deliver strong specifications.
• 38:48
  You've mentioned it, before, and I know I'm going to get it wrong,
• 38:51
  but it's when you look at something like the this curriculum needs a review,
• 38:56
  it needs a refresh, it needs to revise something along those lines, I guess.
• 39:00
  And so when you when you evaluate, you know, the past seven years
• 39:03
  of this curriculum and you're like, how are we going to update this one here?
• 39:06
  Is that kind of a.. I know I got that model wrong.
• 39:09
  Yeah.
• 39:09
  But is it that sort of idea like okay, what do we need to do.
• 39:12
  We need to rewrite this entire thing?
• 39:14
  Yeah, it does come down to that.
• 39:15
  It's, you know, it's it's
• 39:17
  that's done in the early I think we're on like development meeting.
• 39:21
  I don't know what it is now seven or something.
• 39:22
  But in the early days that's what it is.
• 39:25
  What do we need to change and and how much do we need to change.
• 39:28
  Is it a complete rewrite.
• 39:30
  And with the maths one, the curriculum itself,
• 39:35
  the content,
• 39:37
  is only being reduced, nothing's being added and it's not being changed.
• 39:42
  It's, it's being that it's just being reduced to the, the quantity
• 39:46
  that will hopefully help again with that.
• 39:48
  You know those kind of the students feel more comfortable with it.
• 39:53
  The frameworks worked upon,
• 39:56
  how that's going to be delivered, where the focus is going to be.
• 40:00
  There is a desire to focus on inquiry, for example, this time.
• 40:04
  So there's a little bit of work that's required around.
• 40:06
  Well, what does that look like in a DP classroom?
• 40:08
  You know, MYP classroom,
• 40:10
  I feel pretty comfortable with inquiry.
• 40:12
  The DP classroom, I think teachers are less and less comfortable with it.
• 40:16
  And so what does that look like?
• 40:18
  And and how can we,
• 40:20
  how can we help with that?
• 40:23
  The IA is probably the part from the maths curriculum
• 40:26
  that has going through the biggest change is still the same kind of idea
• 40:30
  of an exploration, but it's the criteria are completely different
• 40:34
  because they're written with this inquiry cycle in mind.
• 40:37
  Yeah.
• 40:38
  So I mean, with the inquiry that I got, obviously that has completely changed
• 40:41
  the criteria.
• 40:42
  What other kind of changes have you seen
• 40:45
  and what other reasons have you seen this for kind of,
• 40:49
  making all of these evolutions over time with the way that the IA is structured?
• 40:54
  With the IA, the AI is obviously a big influence.
• 40:59
  It's, it kind of raises its head in almost every conversation that we have.
• 41:03
  And I liked the IB approach when we talked about this in a recent meeting,
• 41:09
  around the around the IA that these words
• 41:11
  confusing, IA, AI.
• 41:14
  And don't bring in academic integrity.
• 41:17
  Sure. And applications and interpretation.
• 41:19
  Right?
• 41:20
  But yeah.
• 41:21
  So, yeah.
• 41:22
  Conversations happened around this, around AI
• 41:26
  and I like it because it's not it's it's been this
• 41:29
  I mean, you've had
• 41:30
  I know you've had podcasts about this, but the idea that it's not,
• 41:33
  you know, we're not banning it.
• 41:34
  We are trying to write an IA which allows it in and allows it
• 41:40
  in, in a way that, that that is, is useful to the student productive.
• 41:45
  And the way that students would you should, should be using it.
• 41:48
  And so, you know, people may be surprised that
• 41:53
  IA’s even exist anymore.
• 41:55
  You know, it was an opportunity that was an opportunity to go no.
• 41:58
  Right?
• 41:59
  Because you could, you know, literally plug it in and out pops an IA.
• 42:03
  But but,
• 42:06
  but we don't want that.
• 42:08
  We expect schools to control that.
• 42:11
  And we expect them to, help the students to produce something
• 42:16
  which is using AI is one of the many tools there that that are available to them.
• 42:22
  And, and I think that that's, a strength.
• 42:24
  It's a strength. And, and
• 42:27
  okay, if it's abuse, then, you know,
• 42:31
  then the schools need to find systems to beat that.
• 42:35
  And, and we'll probably pick it up.
• 42:38
  And I don't really I mean, do I stay on that really.
• 42:40
  But that's but that's definitely one of the, one of the kind of
• 42:45
  it wasn't an elephant in the room because we talked about it a lot,
• 42:47
  but it was always there. Right?
• 42:49
  And, and it just needs to be kind of approached
• 42:53
  well in school. Yeah.
• 42:55
  It's, it's incumbent upon schools and the teachers
• 42:58
  because we are the student facing part of the IB.
• 43:00
  And we mentioned earlier where it's like,
• 43:02
  you know, it's teachers that are involved in all the IA processes.
• 43:04
  And instead of assigning the IB accepting like, that's me,
• 43:08
  I am I am the IB for these, you know, this experiences me.
• 43:13
  It's me in the classroom.
• 43:14
  And so I think it's maybe easy or attractive for a teacher
• 43:18
  to kind of expect the IB to make a rule and hand it down,
• 43:22
  and you will then do this sort of thing with it.
• 43:24
  But ultimately, I think it's up to us to help students understand
• 43:28
  you're making something meaningful here,
• 43:30
  and to offload that misses the point.
• 43:35
  It misses what you're really going to gain from this.
• 43:37
  And I think really we have to be the ones that do that
• 43:39
  because we're we're student facing and we have to help them understand that.
• 43:42
  Like it's not what you're
• 43:44
  producing in terms of the knowledge that doesn't necessarily need to be made.
• 43:48
  It's not like you're adding to our world of knowledge right now.
• 43:50
  It's what changes in you when you do that.
• 43:52
  Like when you go through the process and you do the research
• 43:55
  and you come up with something
• 43:57
  big things happen on the inside of you that make you a better person.
• 44:00
  And if you offload that, you really miss out.
• 44:02
  I mean, the the difficult bit is that we know that, right?
• 44:05
  Are you trying to suggest I'm ineffective in my messaging?
• 44:08
  No, not at all.
• 44:10
  Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yes.
• 44:12
  You're sitting here, you've got a, you know, you've got a forum
• 44:14
  and it's an important message is hugely important message.
• 44:16
  And it's one that you know, you know that we have conversations
• 44:20
  in the school and we, you know, there's it's there.
• 44:24
  And the IB are having conversations
• 44:26
  and they talk about it at conferences and so on.
• 44:28
  But so it is so important that that, that integrity
• 44:31
  is just a huge part of everything that we do.
• 44:34
  A student, when we say to our students, but it's a teacher as well,
• 44:38
  I know we'll we'll know which colleague I'm talking about.
• 44:40
  But, you know, if you ask the question around here,
• 44:42
  what's the most important thing we can teach our students?
• 44:44
  First thing they would say is be have integrity.
• 44:47
  You know, be honest.
• 44:49
  I think one of the things that I,
• 44:51
  I've talked to, a lot of people have been in part
• 44:53
  of the different curriculum reviews and there's like the common
• 44:56
  themes are always like almost no one thinks that.
• 44:59
  They're like surprised that they got on the curriculum review.
• 45:02
  I was like,
• 45:03
  I really am surprised they picked me,
• 45:05
  which I think is a really good thing because like you said, it does give like
• 45:08
  a really diverse group of opinions that are coming together.
• 45:12
  The other is I understand why it takes this many years to get a new syllabus out.
• 45:18
  Every time they're like, this is the amount of data gathering
• 45:21
  that happens.
• 45:21
  But also like democracy's hard,
• 45:25
  and people, their opinions really do matter.
• 45:28
  And there are a lot of opinions.
• 45:29
  And getting that narrowed down to something that everyone's
• 45:34
  at least compromised on does take a massive amount of time.
• 45:38
  And then the third is always that there is
• 45:41
  this kind of blue sky,
• 45:45
  in a perfect
• 45:46
  world idea of what they wish the curriculum looked like
• 45:50
  and what they wish the IA’s and the exams looked like.
• 45:53
  And then there gets to a point where it's like, but it has to be scalable
• 45:57
  and authentic and really get to this point
• 46:00
  where it works in real life, not in our development
• 46:06
  meeting number 75. Exactly.
• 46:08
  And is there anything that has stood out in that kind of last piece there
• 46:13
  that has been either like a hard compromise to make or something
• 46:17
  that you actually feel really good, that you found a workaround for?
• 46:20
  It's a minor anecdote, but, but, but back at the foot
• 46:22
  in the first curriculum review I did, I remember
• 46:24
  we worked for a long time because it was a complete change in the,
• 46:28
  the IA that in the first one, you know, went from five portfolio pieces.
• 46:33
  I mean, people remember that, I don't know,
• 46:34
  but if you have five pieces to this one single IA and,
• 46:38
  we were working on the criteria and we, you know, we nailed it.
• 46:41
  Yeah. Well, how good away.
• 46:42
  And then it got sent off to assessment and they got sent off to to somebody
• 46:47
  who came back as a no. Sorry. Can't do that.
• 46:49
  It doesn't translate, right?
• 46:51
  And it's like, okay, what do you mean by that?
• 46:54
  And it's like,
• 46:55
  well in in I can’t remember a language, it was in Spanish that this,
• 46:59
  this would mean something completely different.
• 47:01
  This is not you know, this is this would be interpreted in a different way.
• 47:05
  And anyway. Okay.
• 47:07
  You know, that's, that's that's a serious problem.
• 47:10
  We're going to have to revisit that.
• 47:12
  So it's it is always
• 47:15
  being conscious of people
• 47:18
  in different walks of life, different schools, different cultures.
• 47:21
  You know, it's it's it's amazing.
• 47:23
  People in The Hague this week who come from very,
• 47:27
  very different backgrounds from me and, and and just so,
• 47:30
  so good to be able to talk and understand people's contexts and,
• 47:34
  but people I guess I want to reassure people that we do
• 47:38
  do that, you know, that we do concentrate on, on on those sort of things.
• 47:43
  You know, it's not just kind of
• 47:46
  middle aged white guys sitting in a room and making making these things.
• 47:50
  It's, you know, it's it's a proper, constructive, conversation that happens.
• 47:55
  Well, I want to kind of connect what we've spoken about so far.
• 47:57
  I mean, obviously we've got the IA,
• 47:59
  we've got the curriculum itself and those sort of things.
• 48:02
  And I think you've shared so many really valuable things for anybody
• 48:05
  who's listening.
• 48:05
  And again, it's it's kind of maths focus, but not really what we're talking about
• 48:09
  I think applies to all different areas of the curriculum.
• 48:13
  And so I guess I'm wondering, you know, how can teachers
• 48:16
  stay aligned with the evolving intentions, you know, with, with curriculum review,
• 48:21
  with the IA and that sort of stuff, and avoid outdated practices?
• 48:24
  I mean, you mentioned
• 48:25
  sort of the odd IA’s that come in sometimes where it's like,
• 48:28
  okay, they're clearly on the old criteria, not on what's going on now.
• 48:32
  What what are the most effective ways that teachers can be like, I'm on point,
• 48:37
  I know what's going on.
• 48:37
  Yeah.
• 48:38
  I mean the the for curriculum review,
• 48:41
  a report is written after the curriculum review meetings and read them.
• 48:45
  I mean, the stay and there's always an appeal at the bottom
• 48:48
  saying any comments, anything you want to say about where
• 48:51
  we're up to at the moment, please send it in
• 48:53
  and there's your email address to send that to.
• 48:55
  And as I say, those are then read by people us when we're in curriculum review.
• 48:59
  So be a part of it.
• 49:01
  Even if you're not in the room, then you can still be in the room with the
• 49:05
  with your comments.
• 49:07
  And being on the forums, being on the,
• 49:10
  exchange and being in any of the,
• 49:14
  and any of the sort of situations
• 49:16
  where you can kind of post a question or give your opinion.
• 49:19
  We often get forms sent out,
• 49:22
  as coordinators that,
• 49:25
  that ask for feedback, ask for things, fill them in.
• 49:29
  Yeah. I mean, you know, just be part of the process. Yeah.
• 49:31
  So so that would be my kind of like, suggestions people is,
• 49:35
  is is be part of the process.
• 49:38
  Don't sit back and and say
• 49:40
  it's all been, you know, it's all it's all rubbish.
• 49:44
  Be part of be part of it and give the feedback and and and help.
• 49:49
  Don't forfeit your voice. Right? Exactly.
• 49:51
  Yeah.
• 49:52
  Paul, it is always a pleasure to have you on the show and really,
• 49:55
  really thankful that you took the time to talk with us today. And I'm
• 49:58
  glad we could get into this thing about, you know, IA’s and curriculum review.
• 50:02
  Yeah, a real pleasure.
• 50:02
  And I'm really glad we got to share a little bit more of your insight
• 50:05
  and your professionalism with what you get to do in this part of the role, too.
• 50:07
  So really, really appreciate you taking the time.
• 50:09
  Thank you very much.
• 50:11
  Wait for my next invite.
• 50:13
  Thank you. Yeah, thank you very much.
• 50:17
  IB Unplugged is a Kognity podcast
• 50:19
  hosted by John Patton and Courtney Marline and produced by Katilina Gaffney.
• 50:23
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• 50:27
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• 50:30
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• 50:33
  Let's keep the conversation going
• 50:34
  and support each other in teaching with confidence, creativity, and joy.
• 50:38
  See you next time.