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Empowered Women: Bridging Divides through Connection & Interracial Sisterhood · No Shrinking Violets Podcast for Women

• 0:05
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets.
• 0:07
  Mary: I'm your host, Mary Rothwell, licensed therapist and certified integrative mental health practitioner.
• 0:13
  Mary: I've created a space where we celebrate the intuition and power of women who want to break free from limiting narratives.
• 0:20
  Mary: We'll explore all realms of wellness, what it means to take up space unapologetically, and how your essential nature is key to living life on your terms.
• 0:30
  Mary: It's time to own your space, trust your nature, and flourish.
• 0:34
  Mary: Let's dive in.
• 0:35
  Mary: Hey Violet, welcome to the show.
• 0:41
  Mary: I grew up in a rural white town.
• 0:43
  Mary: Today, about 78% of the population is white non-Hispanic, which, to be honest, is surprising because I would have thought it was closer to 90%.
• 0:52
  Mary: I've worked in both a community college setting and at the second largest campus of a major university, Penn State.
• 0:59
  Mary: At the latter, white students were the minority, yet when I left, 100% of the counseling staff was white, with the exception of a black administrative assistant.
• 1:08
  Mary: The staff and faculty ethnicity overall did not reflect the student body.
• 1:13
  Mary: As a hiring manager at the community college and a frequent chairperson of search committees at the Penn State campus, I experienced the lack of applicants of color in every search of which I was a part.
• 1:25
  Mary: However, I didn't have the leverage or honestly the power to push and find out more about why that was the case.
• 1:31
  Mary: However, I did often need to address the imbalance with students.
• 1:35
  Mary: When I work with students of color, often from inner cities here in the US or internationally, I put the fact that I was a middle-aged white woman front and center of our early discussions.
• 1:45
  Mary: Students often responded with visible relief from naming the issue, or they responded with wariness.
• 1:52
  Mary: For some, it took a long time to not only untangle the impact of racism and prejudice on the therapy process for both of us, but often from their lived experience overall.
• 2:03
  Mary: One time I had a black female coworker claim that none of us, as the rest of the staff was white, should even bring up race or ethnicity in our conversations with students of color.
• 2:13
  Mary: I was both speechless and inwardly scrambling to figure out what I had done to cause this claim.
• 2:21
  Mary: We'll unpack more of that with my guest today, I think, because it created in me one of the issues that my guest so often helps white women to address.
• 2:28
  Mary: So anyway, the great thing about Penn State was that an education about diversity of all types was baked into training for the counseling staff.
• 2:36
  Mary: That did not change my worry that I wouldn't inadvertently say or do something that was unintentionally hurtful or prejudiced or just, well, clueless.
• 2:45
  Mary: After having been away from this environment now for three years, that feeling has only intensified.
• 2:51
  Mary: So I'm looking forward to this discussion with my guest today with many emotions, chief among them humbleness and a bit of awe for the path that my guest has taken.
• 3:01
  Mary: As I truly believe that life is a path we walk along a thousand doors that swing open along the way, I believe this conversation will be an important doorway into learning for me.
• 3:11
  Mary: I hope it will serve to help you step more fully into your own space or encourage you to walk through an unfamiliar door that might swing open on your own path.
• 3:20
  Mary: Adjacent to that is a common theme in many of my episodes, how we as women are positioned by society to interact with each other.
• 3:29
  Mary: Is it support or is it from a place of scarcity or competition?
• 3:33
  Mary: I believe the bond of female friendship is a force, and that women, whether through friendship or any connection, can empower each other in a way that is itself uniquely powerful.
• 3:44
  Mary: My guest today is Karen Fleshman.
• 3:46
  Mary: Karen is the founder of the Interracial Sisterhood Coalition and of Racy Conversations.
• 3:52
  Mary: She is an anti-racism educator and retreat facilitator, community builder and single mom and caregiver to her own mom.
• 4:00
  Mary: She helps women heal racial divides by facilitating transformative conversations, interracial sisterhood retreats, and workshops on race and gender dynamics.
• 4:09
  Mary: She creates spaces for healing, trust building, and collaboration, helping women foster authentic conversations and solidarity across differences.
• 4:18
  Mary: Welcome to No Shrinking Violets, Karen.
• 4:21
  Karen: Thank you so much, Mary.
• 4:23
  Karen: It's such a pleasure to meet you and to be invited to your show.
• 4:27
  Karen: And thank you so much for those uh prefacing comments.
• 4:31
  Karen: There's just so much going on inside my mind right now.
• 4:35
  Mary: Yeah, I think we have plenty to talk about today.
• 4:38
  Mary: So I'm gonna start the way I do pretty much with every guest.
• 4:42
  Mary: If you could talk first a little about you, like what are your flashball moments as you look at your own history?
• 4:48
  Mary: How do you think sort of your issues or learning experiences transpired to get you to where you are today in the work that you do?
• 4:58
  Karen: Yes.
• 4:59
  Karen: Well, similar to you, and similar, I would say, to the vast majority of white people in this country, I grew up in an almost entirely white community.
• 5:10
  Karen: The town I grew up in had been a sundown town.
• 5:14
  Karen: And there were thousands of sundown towns all throughout the United States with the intentionally created all white communities.
• 5:22
  Karen: So um there was a sign on the outskirts of town, welcome to Loveland, a great place to raise a family.
• 5:29
  Karen: And underneath it was a hand-painted sign that said, We practice Jim Crow laws here.
• 5:35
  Karen: So this was a way of um making it clear that black people, people of color, were welcome to come into the town and work during the day.
• 5:46
  Karen: But by sundown, they had to be out.
• 5:49
  Karen: They could not rent, they could not own a place, they could not stay in a hotel overnight.
• 5:55
  Karen: Um, and in addition to sundown towns, there were other intentionally created all-white communities.
• 6:01
  Karen: I would imagine perhaps the community that you grew up in, uh, which are red-lined and green-lined neighborhoods.
• 6:10
  Karen: So we I think a lot of us are familiar with the concept of redlining, where banks and the government drew lines around certain black uh people of color neighborhoods and said, do not make housing loans here, do not uh make business loans here.
• 6:27
  Karen: But we're not as familiar with the green lines they drew around primarily white communities and said, yes, offer mortgages in these places, sell homes in these neighborhoods exclusively to white people.
• 6:42
  Karen: And I raise all this to say that I think this intentionally created residential and educational segregation is a big part of why everything you just said happens.
• 6:57
  Karen: So, so coming back to my story, in my uh small town that was, you know uh blonde, blue-eyed, Christian, like everybody went to church on Sunday.
• 7:10
  Karen: It was a very homogeneous town.
• 7:14
  Karen: Came when I was 10 years old, a family of refugees from the former Soviet Union.
• 7:21
  Karen: And they were the first refugees, you know, the first Jewish people, the first um different people um to come to my elementary school.
• 7:34
  Karen: Their daughter became my best friend, and that family just opened me up to the wider world.
• 7:42
  Karen: They were into jazz, they were into art, they were into travel and nature and all this stuff.
• 7:49
  Karen: And so they really inspired me to open myself to the wider world, and it taught me how important it is to have friendships with people who are different from you.
• 8:03
  Karen: And and I was also became an activist at a very early age.
• 8:08
  Karen: In in my town, um, conservative parents tried to ban Judy Bloom books, and I was like, oh, hell no, you know, and this was when I was in sixth grade, and I organized on my um on my elementary school playground.
• 8:26
  Karen: I I collected signatures on a petition, and then I presented the petition to the school board with an impassioned speech about how important Judy Bloom books were for our health and well-being as as children.
• 8:41
  Karen: And lo and behold, the school board voted to keep the books on the shelves.
• 8:46
  Karen: And I and Judy Bloom sent me a very sweet letter.
• 8:50
  Karen: The governor of Colorado sent me a letter.
• 8:53
  Karen: It was just a really amazing experience.
• 8:56
  Karen: And I think also the victory at an early age was also a very affirming experience.
• 9:03
  Karen: Like I don't know if the school board had said, no, we're keeping, we're taking the books away, you know, would I have still considered continued down this path?
• 9:13
  Karen: But from that, I became an activist, you know, against apartheid, against US involvement in Central America.
• 9:21
  Karen: I'm talking about when I was still in high school, you know, and then that set me on the path my whole life um toward anti-racism.
• 9:31
  Karen: And and it's um another interesting aspect of my life is that although I grew up in an all-white community, throughout my career, I have through or throughout my adult life, I've lived in majority, global majority.
• 9:48
  Karen: So I don't I don't like to use the term minority.
• 9:51
  Karen: Um the correct term Rosemary Campbell Stevens coined is global majority.
• 9:57
  Karen: Um, so um Austin, Texas, New York City, now San Francisco.
• 10:05
  Karen: And I always worked in majority, global majority organizations.
• 10:11
  Karen: So I was I had to learn how to show up in an in an organization where I was the minority.
• 10:20
  Karen: Uh, and then I almost entirely worked for women of color leaders who were extraordinary leaders, and they gave me very direct feedback on the things that I was doing well and the areas of improvement.
• 10:37
  Karen: And they also just role modeled for me what it is to see the humanity in every person, what it is to deeply listen and respect and honor people and be able to connect with people from all different backgrounds all over the world.
• 10:57
  Karen: And I am so lucky to have had those experiences.
• 11:02
  Karen: And I also had the experience, the turning point for me when I really wanted to go into anti-racism was when I worked for a workforce development organization called Year Up.
• 11:15
  Karen: And I was partnered with many young adults of color to be their mentors as they began working in corporate America.
• 11:24
  Karen: And it's so interesting you raised Penn State because one of our students, a brilliant, brilliant, brilliant uh young woman from Puerto Rico, had gone to Penn State on a scholarship, and someone had written racial slurs on her door.
• 11:43
  Karen: Um her financial aid package got all messed up, and she wound up having to leave Penn State, but still owing a lot of money to the institution.
• 11:56
  Karen: And she was extremely depressed because at a very early age she had had this horrible experience, and it was also, you know, she was in a financial hole at this point, and just listening to that story.
• 12:12
  Karen: I had always been the higher education for everybody person, but I heard so many of these stories of of young people of color going to these uh higher education institutions and having terrible experiences, and it was through listening to these stories that I realized I needed to stop preparing young adults of color for the workforce and start preparing the workplace for young adults of color.
• 12:43
  Karen: And that's what motivated me to go in this direction.
• 12:48
  Karen: And to your point about friendship, I do believe the interracial friendship, interracial uh exchanging of stories, is how we get out of the situation that we're in because they use the the people who profit from racism and patriarchy use stories to divide us and pit us against each other and fill our heads with nonsense lies.
• 13:25
  Karen: And we really need to, we have so much more power because there's so many more of us.
• 13:32
  Karen: Um, but we need to have solidarity with each other.
• 13:36
  Karen: And I do believe that solidarity begins with empathy and exchanging of stories.
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 13:43
  Karen: So that's that's kind of a long, long-winded reply to your well, okay.
• 13:49
  Mary: There's 3,000 threads I want to pull out of there.
• 13:51
  Mary: Well, but and I think the one thing, so that this is what I found interesting on my journey.
• 13:56
  Mary: And I am such a neophyte, like I am so at the beginning of my journey, even though I'm I'm pushing 60.
• 14:02
  Mary: But I think, you know, I've talked to people about you mentioned redlining, and I don't think many people do know what that means because we're not taught it.
• 14:10
  Mary: That's the alternate version of history.
• 14:14
  Mary: So when I was talking to someone about this, and this was probably two years ago, the response was that didn't happen.
• 14:23
  Mary: And so I think this is where it's very interesting.
• 14:27
  Mary: One of the many interesting things, and I'm going to use a nature um analogy because I use nature all the time.
• 14:33
  Mary: I feel like you're standing in the forest, and all you see are the trees.
• 14:38
  Mary: You're so close to the trees, you only see the trees that look like you.
• 14:41
  Mary: But if you could somehow levitate and look at the whole ecosystem, you would be like, my God, there's like a thousand different kinds of trees.
• 14:51
  Mary: And they all in nature actually work together and support each other.
• 14:56
  Mary: So we forget that.
• 14:58
  Mary: But anyway, I think we just have this very uh myopic view of things.
• 15:04
  Mary: And when it is something uncomfortable, I think, and I'm gonna own this too.
• 15:10
  Mary: I think the first thing is like, well, then I'm not gonna look at it because, first of all, how could anybody intentionally do something that hurtful?
• 15:17
  Mary: And so it's probably not true, but you keep looking in the face of it.
• 15:22
  Mary: Like you at a young age, I think we're able to say, wait a minute, this is what's really happening here.
• 15:27
  Mary: I'm gonna call this out.
• 15:30
  Karen: Yeah, um, so many things.
• 15:32
  Karen: And and I think that the reason why white people want to look away is because we have intergenerational trauma too.
• 15:47
  Karen: We we talk a lot about the intergenerational trauma that people of the global majority, in particular uh people whose ancestors uh were enslaved by white ancestors experience, right?
• 16:05
  Karen: Um but we don't talk as much about the secondary vicarious trauma that we, the descendants of the enslavers, experience.
• 16:19
  Karen: And some people are like, oh, well, I didn't have anything to do with slavery.
• 16:23
  Karen: There was only a small group of Americans who were slave owners.
• 16:28
  Karen: Well, guess what?
• 16:29
  Karen: All white Americans participated and benefited from slavery in some way, whether they were in the north and they were um employed in textiles or or uh slavery-related industries, or whether they were in the south, where literally every single white man had to spend several weeks or months of the year on runaway slave patrols in order to maintain the whole system.
• 17:01
  Karen: And all white people were expected to enforce the racial hierarchy in every interaction, whether they owned enslaved people or not.
• 17:12
  Karen: And they also had to um police and punish.
• 17:18
  Karen: This was particularly the function of white women, and as we learned from Stephanie Jones Rogers' book, um, they were her property, is to maintain control of all the dynamics and report any infraction to uh white men to to um to inflict violence.
• 17:41
  Karen: So all of that causes us to be traumatized.
• 17:46
  Karen: And that is something that we, of course, when we hear about something, we don't, we would rather pass over it because it was very painful to our ancestors to have done this.
• 17:59
  Karen: It it affects them.
• 18:01
  Karen: And whether they directly did it or they witnessed someone do it, there was this uh demand of white solidarity that you would never defy this system.
• 18:15
  Karen: And in fact, if you did defy this system, you would likely be hanged or raped or some other terrible violence inflicted upon you.
• 18:26
  Karen: And I'm not saying this to legitimize um why more people didn't defy the system, they certainly should have.
• 18:35
  Karen: And in every generation, there was a handful of people who did.
• 18:38
  Karen: I'm just trying to say why this thing was so diabolically and meticulously designed that there was very little incentive for people to do so.
• 18:50
  Karen: And so it became like our survival mechanism to maintain this.
• 18:55
  Karen: And one of the things that's become really clear to me is that part of the reason we're in this situation as women, is that women of the global majority survival depended on them getting as far away from violent white men as possible, and white women's uh survival depended on our getting as close as possible to violent white men.
• 19:24
  Karen: And so that's why we have these different trauma responses, right?
• 19:29
  Karen: That that women of the global majority, not to not to completely stereotype, but they do have uh a trauma response that's more aligned with fight or flight.
• 19:41
  Karen: And white women's trauma response is more aligned with fawn, um, fawn and flop.
• 19:52
  Karen: And I'm trying to think of the other one.
• 19:54
  Karen: Maybe freeze, yes, freeze, 100% freeze.
• 19:58
  Karen: I'm actually freezing, trying to think of your brain froze.
• 20:02
  Karen: Exactly, exactly, and so we are polarized, yeah.
• 20:09
  Karen: Okay, and and then white women continue to inflict the violence that our ancestors inflicted onto women of color in the workplace, in the community, and other white women who see that happening and are morally opposed to it are frozen and and unwilling to hold the white women who are doing it to account.
• 20:40
  Karen: And this keeps happening and happening and happening, and now we you know, the United States was determined to be the most dangerous country for um for women uh by you know international uh feminists and scholars of of what is going on.
• 21:04
  Karen: We have the highest maternal mortality rates, we have the highest rates of domestic violence, we have all of these things, right?
• 21:14
  Karen: And I was blown away recently to learn that in Norway, I think their maternal mortality rate last year was zero.
• 21:23
  Karen: It is possible, yeah, it does not have to be like this, but it's so incredibly profitable for a small group of people, and it's becoming even more profitable today, right?
• 21:40
  Karen: It's just unbelievable the amount of wealth that is being accumulated in the hands of a few and how they keep us all perpetuating this is by dividing us and making us hate each other.
• 21:57
  Mary: Yeah, and I think that historical um information or where where things sort of fit, I think it's important.
• 22:05
  Mary: And, you know, I'm gonna again go back to sort of the analogy of the ecosystem that when you talk about monocropping, which is having one crop because you have to spray and you have to you do all these things, it is the most unhealthy way to grow food or you know, have a system because you're also killing all of the beneficial pollinators.
• 22:25
  Mary: And you know, I am totally a plant and a nature nerd.
• 22:28
  Mary: But I think we so often don't look to nature.
• 22:31
  Mary: So here's what I, you know, one of the things that I would like people listening to think about.
• 22:37
  Mary: If if you feel an in, so first of all, this is not bashing white people.
• 22:41
  Mary: This is not a doing anything about, you know, this is better than this, or it's this is informational.
• 22:49
  Mary: And I think if there is an internal sense of like, wait a minute, is this really true?
• 22:56
  Mary: I would say be curious about that because we all have a history.
• 23:01
  Mary: And when you really start to think about, for instance, epigenetic, epigenetics, like our genetics are affected by the experiences of our ancestors.
• 23:14
  Mary: And it's not necessarily a genetic change physically, but what epigenetics does is it keeps us from expressing certain parts of our genetic code.
• 23:26
  Mary: So if that is more of this idea of shrinking, and I'm gonna go directly to no shrinking violets, women shrink to stay safe, which is legitimate.
• 23:36
  Mary: But I think it's also now what you're saying is you kind of walked through this door to say, okay, this is gonna be uncomfortable, but there's so much growth that can happen here.
• 23:50
  Mary: So I want to talk a little bit about you said in your workplace that you were kind of informed about some things, like Karen, maybe you want to think about this, or you know, it sounds like you had some really honest conversations with coworkers or supervisors.
• 24:07
  Mary: What was that like for you?
• 24:09
  Mary: Because I alluded to a situation where, you know, something happened in the workplace and I reacted sort of, I was stunned.
• 24:16
  Mary: Like there's that freeze reaction.
• 24:18
  Mary: I was like, what is going on?
• 24:20
  Mary: So how did you navigate that?
• 24:24
  Karen: Well, I I tried to listen, you know, I I made myself open.
• 24:30
  Karen: Now there weren't I I'm not trying to say every single time.
• 24:34
  Karen: There were times when things happened that I was literally could not believe what was happening.
• 24:42
  Karen: You know, it took me a beat.
• 24:45
  Karen: And and um even now I talk about how I've experienced sexual harassment, wage gap, uh glass ceiling from white men in the workplace.
• 24:59
  Karen: But by far the most psychologically harmful behavior I experienced in the workplace came from white women who perceive me as a threat to their proximity to the white men in power.
• 25:13
  Karen: And they would reach out to me as like mentors and friends and confidants and try to get me to open up about things, and then they would take things I told them that I thought was in confidence and use it to squish me like a little bug.
• 25:29
  Karen: Okay.
• 25:29
  Karen: My experience with the women of color leaders who I reported to was very different, very different.
• 25:39
  Karen: They really saw in me someone who could be developed into someone better, and that was the that was their approach to me.
• 25:52
  Karen: Um, they wanted me to um to grow and they gave me tons of opportunities.
• 25:59
  Karen: I mean, that literally up until like 2014, every job I had was because a a woman of color reached out to me and said, I want you to come work here, or they're opening up a position here and you should go, you should go do this.
• 26:18
  Karen: Literally every single job I had.
• 26:20
  Karen: I did not apply for jobs, I was recommended and recruited in.
• 26:26
  Karen: Um, so they saw in me someone, you know, who could be developed, let's say.
• 26:32
  Karen: And they remain my most incredible mentors, and and um, I'm just so lucky that I got exposed to all of that.
• 26:43
  Karen: But I think it's really important when we receive feedback, even feedback that's extremely hard to hear, that we receive it with grace.
• 26:55
  Karen: And the most important words to say when someone gives you feedback is thank you.
• 27:01
  Karen: Okay, because that is already a sign of trust that they even shared that feedback with you and did not withhold it from you, okay?
• 27:11
  Karen: Because that shows that they know that they can give you that feedback without you retaliating or or um escalating.
• 27:20
  Karen: Okay.
• 27:21
  Karen: But then you need to really break down the feedback.
• 27:25
  Karen: And I don't I don't think it's a good idea to ask the people who gave you the feedback to educate you about why that feedback was given, at least not initially.
• 27:37
  Karen: If you don't understand the feedback, I highly recommend going to other people who are in a similar position to you who are further along in their journey to help you understand why that feedback was given.
• 27:53
  Karen: Now, you may want to go back to the person who gave you the feedback and say, hey, I've been doing a lot of um unpacking of what you said to me, and because I really want to understand it.
• 28:06
  Karen: And this is what I have, I have sort of uncovered through that.
• 28:11
  Karen: And I I just wanted to share that with you because I would love, I welcome your feedback.
• 28:17
  Karen: Is this what was underlying what you were saying, or is it something else, right?
• 28:24
  Karen: So you don't want to put them, you don't want to make them do that emotional labor or put them in a position where they feel like you're asking them to give that emotional labor unless you yourself are are doing that.
• 28:38
  Karen: And always, of course, give them the option.
• 28:40
  Karen: If you don't want to respond to this, I completely respect that and I totally understand.
• 28:46
  Karen: But I'm just I really do want to improve and I really want to understand what you were saying.
• 28:51
  Karen: Um, and so that's why I'm asking you if that makes sense.
• 28:56
  Karen: And it's also important to know that people, the global majority, are not a monolith either, right?
• 29:04
  Karen: What one person's experience, viewpoint, etc., is maybe very different from someone else's.
• 29:14
  Karen: But I think it's extremely important to read, to follow the many black women, anti-racism educators, authors, organizers, really read and follow and read their books and follow them on social media and listen to what they are saying.
• 29:37
  Karen: Um, go to hear them when they talk, you know, buy them a coffee, do all you can to support their work, go go to their workshops, etc.
• 29:47
  Karen: Um, because those are the folks who can really help you understand what is going on, what is going on in the ways that we need to change.
• 29:57
  Mary: Yeah.
• 29:58
  Mary: And I want to go back to This idea of emotional labor, because I think that may also sort of be a new term.
• 30:04
  Mary: So when we want to have these deeper connections, we really want to be authentic, we really want to open those lines of communication, which is a lot of the work that you do.
• 30:14
  Mary: Explain a little bit how someone can start.
• 30:17
  Mary: Because I think there's fear, and I think there's also this idea of, well, you have an opinion.
• 30:23
  Mary: So tell me your opinion and tell me why.
• 30:26
  Mary: And we want to start to mine that as the um we go on the offense.
• 30:32
  Mary: You know, like tell me, here's what I want to know.
• 30:34
  Mary: And I think you're talking about that's what the emotional labor is, right?
• 30:38
  Mary: Putting someone in a position to be your teacher.
• 30:41
  Mary: So I think that can create this sort of um uncertainty.
• 30:46
  Mary: Like, well, how am I supposed to start this if I have to be careful about what I'm asking of someone?
• 30:53
  Karen: Yeah, yeah.
• 30:53
  Karen: That's a that's a very good question.
• 30:55
  Karen: Well, this is literally why I created the interracial sisterhood coalition, because I saw there was a need for an opt-in, safe, generative space outside of the workplace for us to begin to listen to each other's stories.
• 31:17
  Karen: So no one has to be there.
• 31:19
  Karen: You only come if you're open to it, if you are a willing participant, if you see the power of um interracial sisterhood and solidarity, and you want to support that.
• 31:36
  Karen: Okay.
• 31:36
  Karen: So how do we begin to bridge that divide?
• 31:44
  Karen: And it's so important too, because we are very socially isolated from each other.
• 31:51
  Karen: So the social science research tells us that uh on average, white Americans' social networks are 90% white.
• 32:00
  Karen: I'm talking about our our friendship um social network, 90% white, and 67% of white Americans' friendship network is 100% white.
• 32:14
  Karen: So that means we're only hearing the stories of other white people, we're only exchanging our social capital with other white people, and that is harming everybody because when I say social capital, I'm talking about job leads, I'm talking about um investment opportunities or where to send your kids to school.
• 32:38
  Karen: All those types of conversations were only exchanging with other white people.
• 32:43
  Karen: So I think there is an incentive um to have these conversations for all parties because we could all benefit from having more racially integrated social circles.
• 32:59
  Karen: Um that's what I would say a good place to start is in a place like the Interracial Sisterhood Coalition where everyone comes to it because they want to be there.
• 33:12
  Karen: They're open to the conversation, and we create an environment where people can share their stories and listen to each other and ask questions, and we do role plays and we we figure things out so that we can go forward better together.
• 33:31
  Karen: We also break down, you know, what happens in interracial interactions that cause them frequently to leave both parties feeling terrible and what white people can do in those interactions because we have the most power to determine the outcome of the interaction, to put our best selves forward in these interactions so that they don't derail.
• 33:58
  Karen: Now, that does not mean that sometimes at the interracial sisterhood coalition events that sparks don't fly, you know, it they do, but when they do, we stay in the room and we work through that together, and that is also something that we need to learn how to do is how to repair when something goes wrong, and that's exactly the work that we do.
• 34:28
  Karen: I truly believe that interracial friendship is a huge part of the solution.
• 34:38
  Karen: But if you Google the words interracial, there's all these resources for interracial dating, interracial families, interracial marriages, blah, blah, blah.
• 34:50
  Karen: There's there's nothing about interracial friendship.
• 34:53
  Karen: Um, and that is that is the space that the interracial sisterhood coalition occupies.
• 35:02
  Mary: Yeah.
• 35:02
  Mary: Well, and it's interesting too that we put so much effort into working out um relationships with like a heterosexual relationship, you know, and and I think sometimes I feel like men just think differently, but we spend so much energy on that trying to understand like what's the difference is, or regardless, it could be a same-sex uh partnership.
• 35:30
  Mary: Everyone is different, but and we spend a lot of time and invest a lot of time into, you know, trying to maintain that and understand where someone else is coming from and adjusting our behavior if we need to and being a better partner.
• 35:45
  Mary: And I would say, what if we brought that spirit to trying to connect to people that we like we sort of see them as different than us, you know?
• 35:56
  Mary: What would that, how would that change?
• 35:58
  Mary: Because I know for me, like sometimes I think about even if you just look at different types of food from different countries and the awesomeness of experiencing all of those flavors.
• 36:10
  Mary: And, you know, even when I did work at Penn State, and I will go back to your comment from before, it was not a perfect institution.
• 36:17
  Mary: I mean, I saw situations of sexual assault that the response to that dragged on and on and on and on.
• 36:23
  Mary: And, you know, so there, I think in any huge institution like that, there's going to be, you know, issues that's just like even with you said in your sisterhood coalition, there can be conflict.
• 36:34
  Mary: And it's really like, how do we improve that?
• 36:37
  Mary: But I think trying to go into spaces that are going to enrich us.
• 36:42
  Mary: And I know there are people listening thinking, I don't need to do this.
• 36:45
  Mary: I'm happy with my friendships.
• 36:47
  Mary: I'm happy with, but for the people that are thinking, okay, I want to expand in this way, and maybe the Interracial Sisterhood Coalition, maybe that is, they see that as a bridge way, way too far at this point.
• 37:00
  Mary: How would you suggest someone starts to gain some comfort in going into spaces where they are not the majority?
• 37:14
  Karen: Great question.
• 37:15
  Karen: Because it is true that white people, we are gonna have to be the ones to initiate because people of the global majority are not gonna come seeking us out to be their friends.
• 37:29
  Karen: Okay.
• 37:29
  Karen: Uh so, and I am someone who has a very racially diverse friendship network, and I have been the one to initiate those friendships by putting myself in a space where those friendships can get started.
• 37:52
  Karen: So, for example, going on hikes with the black hiking group or going to a black professional network uh event, et cetera, et cetera.
• 38:04
  Karen: Now, when I enter these spaces, I have to be very mindful of my energy, right?
• 38:12
  Karen: Because people think that racism is about racial slurs or or things like that.
• 38:20
  Karen: But so much of racism is about body language, it's about facial expressions, um, the overall energy you bring to the space.
• 38:31
  Karen: So I would not recommend doing this unless and until you have worked on some of those elements and you can be your nervous system can be totally calm and you're not too overly eager, and you're just, you know, a calm, kind, accountable, relational, respectful person.
• 38:56
  Karen: Um, and then I would seek those opportunities out.
• 39:01
  Karen: And maybe you're maybe you're more of a um introverted person, and the idea of going to a networking event or even a hike where you don't know anyone is extremely overwhelming.
• 39:13
  Karen: Uh, then I would say just think about who do you know from your daily life?
• 39:19
  Karen: Maybe it is someone in your workplace or someone in your house of worship or whatever that you see on a regular basis, but you've never really had a meaningful conversation with.
• 39:32
  Karen: Ask that person, hey, could we could we get coffee sometime?
• 39:35
  Karen: I'd just like to get to know you a little better and see how they respond.
• 39:40
  Karen: Um, and from there, I think we can start to build a bigger social network.
• 39:47
  Karen: The other thing is is obviously social media.
• 39:50
  Karen: I mean, social media is terrible in many ways because I believe these tech companies are definitely profiting off of division and trying to design the algorithm so that we would be in conflict with each other.
• 40:06
  Karen: And it is also super useful to meet people that you otherwise would not have met by finding people who share common interests.
• 40:16
  Karen: So maybe you've met someone online.
• 40:19
  Karen: Um, and you can just say, hey, would you be open to having a virtual coffee sometime?
• 40:25
  Karen: Or I'm gonna be in your city.
• 40:27
  Karen: Could we maybe get together and go for a walk, whatever the case may be?
• 40:32
  Karen: But you're gonna have to be the one to initiate, mind your energy, don't interrogate, you know, just let the conversation flow and and don't be extractive, just let the conversation flow.
• 40:48
  Karen: And I can tell you so many funny stories ranging from my um one of my closest friends and collaborators, Colette Lucky, who I met on a black hiking group excursion, and it was a long hike.
• 41:04
  Karen: I think it was like, I don't know, it was like six miles in, six miles out.
• 41:09
  Karen: And we we started talking very early on, you know, we had just so much to talk about, and we were having this great conversation, and then we were we were on the way back out like hours later, and she was literally like, Hey, well, you know, we're almost to the parking lot.
• 41:28
  Karen: You better go find the people you came here with.
• 41:31
  Karen: And I was like, What do you mean the people I came here with?
• 41:34
  Karen: And she's like, Well, this is a black hiking group.
• 41:39
  Karen: You better go the whole time.
• 41:43
  Karen: She thought that I had been with other white people just hiking, and like somehow I got broken off from them, and then I found her somehow, and we started talking with each other, and that caused me to get distracted from being with the being with my group, and I was like, this is my group.
• 42:03
  Karen: I came here to be part of this group, and she thinks that story is so funny because she herself is an anti-biased educator, right?
• 42:13
  Karen: So she's like, it really showed me how I have biases too.
• 42:16
  Karen: You know, we all we all do have biases, yeah.
• 42:21
  Mary: And so I would say, you know, stay curious, which I think that this really comes from a place of curiosity and open, like try openness.
• 42:29
  Mary: Picture yourself being open.
• 42:31
  Mary: And there will be things that I think are uncomfortable and being able to sit with that in the sense of like you're growing from that.
• 42:39
  Mary: Like anytime you travel right to another country.
• 42:42
  Mary: I remember the first time I went to Italy and I went with an educational group.
• 42:46
  Mary: So there was this whole list of things.
• 42:49
  Mary: Like, you know, there's no lines in Italy, like somebody's gonna push in front of you and order the coffee if you're not getting up there and ordering.
• 42:56
  Mary: And that's not rudeness in that culture.
• 42:58
  Mary: And I think, you know, we would interpret it through our lens.
• 43:02
  Mary: Look how rude these Italians are.
• 43:04
  Mary: It's like, no, you don't, like that's just how it works.
• 43:07
  Mary: Or you go into a store and you don't touch the clothing.
• 43:10
  Mary: There's different just cultural things.
• 43:12
  Mary: And I think you get expanded so much by having those experiences.
• 43:19
  Mary: It also helps our brain, by the way, because it's new neural pathways.
• 43:23
  Mary: But I think anything that we do new like this, it's going, there's going to be fear because I think, and I'll circle back to this idea of how women were socialized.
• 43:33
  Mary: A lot of us, as the pleasers, as the connectors, we're worried we're gonna offend someone, we're gonna say something wrong, we're gonna be embarrassed, we're gonna embarrass someone else.
• 43:42
  Mary: So before we even open our mouths, there is all of this stuff.
• 43:46
  Mary: And I will remember, I remember when I was, I was pretty young.
• 43:49
  Mary: It's one of my first jobs.
• 43:50
  Mary: And I said something to one of the women about her hair.
• 43:53
  Mary: And later somebody, it was a black woman, and later somebody said, You don't ever talk about a black woman's hair.
• 43:58
  Mary: And I'm like, what is happening?
• 44:00
  Mary: Like, I don't.
• 44:01
  Mary: So there's also sort of these ideas that people put out there where you don't know, like, is that really true?
• 44:07
  Mary: And so then I felt like, oh gosh, do I address this?
• 44:11
  Mary: So I think there are so many things along the way that when we run up against a situation where we feel like we did something wrong, then we want to fold in and be like, I'm not even gonna go there.
• 44:25
  Mary: And so that just deepens the divide, regardless of all the history and all of this stuff that we talked about in the beginning.
• 44:33
  Mary: I think anytime there's a difference, that can then become an excuse to not engage because it's safer to stay small and just put that to the side.
• 44:45
  Karen: Yeah, yeah.
• 44:46
  Karen: It's interesting about the hair thing.
• 44:50
  Karen: Um, I think it's totally fine to say, oh my gosh, you look so beautiful.
• 44:54
  Karen: I love your hair like that.
• 44:56
  Karen: It's very different to be like, oh, your hair looks totally different.
• 45:02
  Karen: Is that your real hair?
• 45:05
  Karen: How did you do that?
• 45:06
  Karen: Like, don't interrogate people.
• 45:08
  Karen: Yeah.
• 45:09
  Mary: Right, right, right, which I didn't, but I think it was still that idea of like, there's here's the thing, I don't have the playbook.
• 45:17
  Mary: Like, we think we know this is how we interact.
• 45:20
  Mary: It's again, it's like going to another country.
• 45:22
  Mary: There's stuff you don't know.
• 45:24
  Mary: And I think when you step in it and you're like, oh shit, like I didn't know that, then you're sort of like, what do I do with this?
• 45:32
  Mary: So I think it's really important to just keep that openness of like, okay, I hear that, I'm gonna file that away, but I'm not gonna use it as an excuse to put a barrier up and stay small and stay safe and not venture into that part of the world because it was too uncomfortable.
• 45:55
  Karen: I love that.
• 45:56
  Karen: That is so important.
• 45:57
  Karen: And going back to the example of visiting Italy, this is what Audre Lourde taught us.
• 46:05
  Karen: Like we are going to have to teach ourselves patterns of relating across differences as equals because nobody role models for us what that is.
• 46:17
  Karen: We are gonna have to be the ones to initiate those neural pathways.
• 46:22
  Karen: And it is gonna be awkward, but we've only ever seen in society this hierarchical good, bad binary of like this way of behaving, this way of being in the world is good and that way is bad.
• 46:37
  Speaker 2: Yep.
• 46:37
  Karen: But what is it like if I have one worldview and cultural practices and this person has their worldview and cultural practices, what is it like for us to see each other as equals, even though we have very different um underlying beliefs?
• 46:56
  Karen: And I do want to go back to talk a little bit about the intergenerational trauma of white women in particular and why it relates to what you're saying about the silencing, why we don't speak out.
• 47:12
  Karen: So my mentors, several of my mentors were like, Karen, you really need to go back and learn about the history of white women.
• 47:22
  Karen: And I was so resistant to that idea.
• 47:24
  Karen: I was like, white women, we are the oppressors.
• 47:27
  Karen: I don't want to know anything about white women, I want to learn more about you, I want to learn more about women of the global majority and all this stuff.
• 47:37
  Karen: And they're like, listen, you really need to do this.
• 47:40
  Karen: So when so many people tell you the same thing, you start to be like, oh, perhaps I should do this.
• 47:47
  Karen: And when I went back and studied the history of white women in Europe and how, you know, before capitalism, we had collective power.
• 48:03
  Karen: We had, you know, we tended crops together, we tended animals together, there wasn't this idea of monogamy, you know, it was much more free-spirited, and we had we held power as healers and as midwives, as ale makers, as faith leaders, etc.
• 48:26
  Karen: And so then when they were like, okay, now you all have to be sharecroppers, and you each have to be on your own little parcel of land, and you gotta give almost everything you raise to the Lord who owns everything.
• 48:44
  Karen: And oh, by the way, men are superior to women, and um, you gotta get married, and you gotta stay with one person in your little isolated abode.
• 48:54
  Karen: The women who were like, Uh, I don't want that, I reject that.
• 49:00
  Karen: I want to go back to the old ways, they called them witches, and in a very public spectacle of violence, they would parade them through the town.
• 49:10
  Karen: Sometimes they were naked, and humiliate them, either by dunking them in water repeatedly, or by putting a um metal clamp on their tongue and a whole mask on their face to prevent them from talking, or to burn them at the stake as witches, like throw them in the water, and if they drowned, they weren't a witch, and if they floated, they were a witch, and then they could be burned at the stake, and they would put their children in the front row to watch them burn.
• 49:47
  Karen: So think about what that did, and the entire town would participate in these displays of violence.
• 49:55
  Karen: So again, it was if you speak out, if you disrupt, this is what will happen to you.
• 50:04
  Karen: Instead, we want everyone to come out and cheer.
• 50:08
  Karen: We want you to point fingers at her and make her, she is the bad one, we are the good one, we the violent ones are the good one.
• 50:18
  Karen: And you want to be part of the good ones to in order that you be spared of violence.
• 50:25
  Karen: Come with us, which is absolutely absurd on its face, but I believe those same dynamics are exactly what is happening in the workplace and in the community today.
• 50:39
  Karen: You be the whistleblower, you are the bad one.
• 50:42
  Karen: You do anything to contradict the dominant power, you are the bad one.
• 50:50
  Karen: You are the pariah.
• 50:51
  Karen: Don't be like her.
• 50:54
  Mary: Yeah, I think it's fear versus love.
• 50:56
  Mary: And we think hate versus love, but it really either you're functioning from a place of fear in the world or you're functioning from a place of love.
• 51:03
  Mary: And that love is yourself, loving yourself, loving the world, loving other people, just loving the idea of connection to other people, or you allow fear to be your driver.
• 51:16
  Mary: And I think starting to think in terms of that.
• 51:18
  Mary: And the other thing is, and to to wrap it up, I'm gonna bring it back to nature.
• 51:23
  Mary: If you look not only at history, like you're talking about, and I would challenge people that internally might feel like, wait a minute, that doesn't sound that sounds like that might not be fully true.
• 51:34
  Mary: Do your research and find out.
• 51:36
  Mary: But I think the other thing is if you look at nature, the power of the female in nature.
• 51:43
  Mary: So I like to talk about honey bees.
• 51:45
  Mary: So in the honeybee world, the females are the workers.
• 51:48
  Mary: They gather the pollen, they make the honey.
• 51:51
  Mary: They, of course, there's a queen and they tend all the female bees.
• 51:55
  Mary: The female bees then mate with the males, which are called drones, and then they kick them out of the hive.
• 52:00
  Mary: So I'm not saying we do that, but I think if you look at the power of the female in the world, in nature, I think that gives you an idea of, you know, the power that I believe women have to be connectors and of course bring life and nurture and all of these things that we sometimes I think paint as a weakness are actually tremendously strong.
• 52:28
  Mary: And so I would say, you know, do one thing this week that's gonna connect you to your female energy, to other females, to maybe if you're gonna make a quick judgment on social media, just let someone be who they are, like be that, let them be that person.
• 52:47
  Mary: We don't have to agree with each other, but I think we all can connect to this idea of at the core, we have the female energy and we just want to be connected to something and belong to something.
• 53:03
  Mary: And so I think if we can open ourselves up to more of that connection, the world is supposed to be diverse, that anything that is mono anything is typically the beginning of the end for it, because you have to then, you know, support it with things that are not nature.
• 53:22
  Mary: So that's kind of my check point.
• 53:24
  Mary: You know, I sort of look at, well, how does nature handle this?
• 53:27
  Mary: And I think when we feel that fear of something diverse or something different, open your heart and be curious because I think that's the way the connection happens.
• 53:37
  Karen: Yes, I love that so much, Mary.
• 53:40
  Karen: And I would add two books I highly recommend everyone read: The Caliban and the Witch by Silvia Federici, Italian Marxist uh feminist historian, and Erased, What American Patriarchy Has Hidden From Us by Dr.
• 53:59
  Karen: Anna Malaika Tubbs.
• 54:01
  Karen: These will help you to really understand the dynamics that um I've been talking about.
• 54:08
  Karen: And um, and I love the idea of nature and the diversity within nature and all of that.
• 54:16
  Karen: So, so deeply, deeply inspiring.
• 54:20
  Karen: And that desire to connect.
• 54:23
  Karen: So when you feel threatened by another woman, just take a beat and ask yourself, why am I feeling threatened by her?
• 54:33
  Karen: And and come back to that place of self-compassion.
• 54:36
  Karen: That is what we work on in my work with white women, is the compassion for the self is the foundation for our compassion for others.
• 54:48
  Karen: And when we feel good and strong about ourselves, that is how we're we're not threatened by other people.
• 54:57
  Karen: We don't we don't fear them because we feel good and confident right now.
• 55:05
  Mary: So let's end with having you remind us where people can find you to connect.
• 55:11
  Karen: Yes.
• 55:11
  Karen: So you can come to Interracial Sisterhood Coalition.com.
• 55:16
  Karen: Um, you can download our guide, subscribe to our YouTube channel, um, learn about our upcoming retreats, um, join our online membership community.
• 55:30
  Karen: We have a very robust interracial sisterhood coalition, um, online membership that is not on social media.
• 55:40
  Karen: So we, you know, vet who is in there, we have community agreements, and it's really a place where we can come together and um and learn about each other and have a lot of fun um in a place that is safe and generative.
• 55:58
  Karen: And I also have a uh cohort for white women.
• 56:02
  Karen: I do small group coaching for groups of white women.
• 56:06
  Karen: And if anything I said today sparked something in you, I encourage you to join our next cohort.
• 56:12
  Karen: It's called Becoming Trustworthy.
• 56:15
  Karen: And you can learn about that at Interracial Sisterhood Coalition.com.
• 56:19
  Karen: And my main social media is LinkedIn.
• 56:22
  Karen: So find me on there at Karen Fleshman.
• 56:26
  Mary: All right, and I'm gonna link all that.
• 56:27
  Mary: I will also um put the books that you mentioned into the show notes so that everything is there that anybody wants to dig into anything.
• 56:35
  Mary: So thank you, Karen, so much for taking the time to be here.
• 56:38
  Mary: What a great conversation!
• 56:40
  Karen: Yes, thank you so much, Mary, and for all you're doing to bring healing and growth in this world.
• 56:47
  Karen: I really appreciate this opportunity to speak with you and your wonderful questions.
• 56:54
  Mary: And I want to thank everyone for listening.
• 56:56
  Mary: I would love to call on y'all to help me out with something.
• 56:59
  Mary: My first book draft is getting prepped to go to the editor.
• 57:02
  Mary: So if you would like to be a member of my launch team, basically you'll get the physical book it costs six weeks before it's officially in the world, plus some super secret insights and maybe an audio snippet of the book and a couple freebies.
• 57:16
  Mary: Simply click on the link in the show notes to sign up.
• 57:19
  Mary: This does not obligate you for a thing.
• 57:21
  Mary: You'll only get emails related to my book launch unless you want to opt in for my weekly emails.
• 57:26
  Mary: I would love to have you on my team.
• 57:27
  Mary: And until next time, go out into the world and be the amazing, resilient, vibrant, violet that you are.