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Unlocking the Potential of Adult Learning in the Fire Service: Strategies for Growth and Engagement · B Shifter

• 1:03
  Speaker 2: Hello and welcome to B Shifter Thanks John Vance, nick Brunassini and today Jeffery King is here and Jeffery takes care of our curriculum for Blue Card and when you see either new CEs come out or updates to the program, jeff's the one who does that work.
• 1:22
  Speaker 2: And today we thought we'd have Jeff on to talk about adult learning and really how Blue Card complements adult learning and how adults learn more specifically.
• 1:35
  Speaker 2: So if you're in charge of learning, either for your department, your region, your organization, however you're delivering training, this will be a good podcast for you to talk about that and hopefully learn a little something.
• 1:46
  Speaker 2: I'm sure I will.
• 1:47
  Speaker 2: So good day, jeff.
• 1:49
  Speaker 2: Good to see you, good to see you.
• 1:51
  Speaker 2: So let's talk about adult learning and specifically, we'll get to how it relates to Blue Card as we go on the show.
• 2:02
  Speaker 1: So let's talk about adult learning and how you can learn a little bit more about the way you train adults.
• 2:08
  Speaker 1: Well, that's a pretty big question.
• 2:09
  Speaker 1: There's a lot of theories out there on adult learning, but I think the best way that you can do it and you look at the training of adults is to engage all the different domains of learning.
• 2:24
  Speaker 1: So, whether you're talking about the cognitive, they're really the ways you want to engage the adult learners and make sure that you're able to get them the content they need and the mechanism they need it to really be able to embrace and understand it.
• 2:36
  Speaker 2: And what are some of those methodologies that we would?
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: love to have.
• 2:40
  Speaker 1: Well, when you start looking at cognitive and especially as it applies to what we do here is the cognitive represents all those things that you've really got to learn, the knowledge you have to acquire.
• 2:48
  Speaker 1: You get into the psychomotor.
• 2:51
  Speaker 1: That becomes the manipulative learning, those hands-on skills that you've got to do.
• 2:54
  Speaker 1: For us it's when we take them into the CTC and start practicing simulations, and then that effective domain is really understanding why they're doing it and being able to put everything to work for themselves.
• 3:05
  Speaker 1: So being able to engage the adult learner on those levels really helps them out a lot.
• 3:11
  Speaker 2: How do adults best learn?
• 3:12
  Speaker 2: What's the best methodology?
• 3:14
  Speaker 2: Is it lecture?
• 3:16
  Speaker 2: Is it reading?
• 3:17
  Speaker 2: Is it actually them doing the skill?
• 3:20
  Speaker 2: How is it best for an adult to let it soak in?
• 3:26
  Speaker 1: I think there's a couple of ways to look at it.
• 3:28
  Speaker 1: When you look at it from Dale's cone of learning and Edgar Dale was a PhD student, went to work for the Kodak Eastman Company at one point and really wanted to study how people learn through film and other mediums And what he recognizes is that there are certain percentages, when we engage our senses that allow us to learn.
• 3:49
  Speaker 1: One of the things that he told us is that adults generally remember about 10% of what they read, that they retain about 20% of what they hear, 30% of what they see, 50% of what we hear and see together, we retain roughly 70% of what is said and then ultimately repeated, and then 90% of what we say and do at the same time.
• 4:12
  Speaker 1: So the more of those senses we can engage when we start talking about being able to see and hear and say, we really do a good job of engaging all those different learning influences.
• 4:24
  Speaker 2: And how does that relate to BlueCard, with the way that the training system is set up for our adult learners who are going through?
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: the program.
• 4:32
  Speaker 1: I think it aligns exactly with both aspects of the program.
• 4:36
  Speaker 1: You've got really two big components that we deal with here.
• 4:39
  Speaker 1: We've got the online programming.
• 4:40
  Speaker 1: That's roughly 40 hours of content that really engages all those as well.
• 4:45
  Speaker 1: The student has to go in, they have to read a little bit, they've got to listen a little bit, they get to see videos and they get to put it all together in real time and make decisions.
• 4:53
  Speaker 1: When you come out of that experience and you get into the certification labs, then you get to really do the hands on manipulative piece where we start showing videos, having conversations, talking about an experience.
• 5:06
  Speaker 1: When you can engage, learning as it applies to experiences in their real life, their retention is a lot higher.
• 5:12
  Speaker 1: From a simulation standpoint, everything we do was you start talking about that, what we say and do at the same time.
• 5:19
  Speaker 1: That's the simulation work.
• 5:20
  Speaker 1: That's 90% retention.
• 5:22
  Speaker 1: So we've built on the 10, the 20, the 30, the 50, the 70, and when we're in the SEM lab, you're talking about 90% retention rates and that's how you maximize the opportunity with your students.
• 5:34
  Speaker 2: So you're also a training chief.
• 5:37
  Speaker 2: You train people at your fire department.
• 5:40
  Speaker 2: So, as you're going through that process and you're designing a program that they're going to learn from what, what would be an ideal setup for a training officer and what would you recommend to like a new training officer on how they set up their their learning process for their people?
• 5:56
  Speaker 2: because we just don't want to check boxes right, and you say it all the time.
• 5:59
  Speaker 2: We were just not there to check a box where they're for meaningful learning, so how do we make it that way?
• 6:04
  Speaker 1: I think that's the biggest problem with the fire services that we have a lot of box checkers, that we live in a world where we think training is a finite skill set, that we have a problem, we address the problem, we create a program for it and then we walk away feeling satisfied that we've done something significant.
• 6:22
  Speaker 1: And the truth is that there's very little retention in the one time training program.
• 6:26
  Speaker 1: Everything's a perishable skill set.
• 6:29
  Speaker 1: Unless we go back to it and review it, we're never going to work through those stages that really apply kind of.
• 6:34
  Speaker 1: What most people are familiar with is that idea of the of the Peter principle.
• 6:39
  Speaker 2: And for those not familiar, what is the Peter principle?
• 6:43
  Speaker 1: It's a really simple concept that there's four stages of learning that you go through with the adults and that most people in any given system that they're going to promote to their highest level of competence.
• 6:52
  Speaker 1: If you take them one step past that level of competence they become incompetent and there's different levels there.
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: What you're looking at, the first level that you talk about, is that unconscious incompetence.
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: The problem with those learners is that generally they're unaware of what they don't know.
• 7:09
  Speaker 1: They don't know what they don't know.
• 7:10
  Speaker 1: So that becomes the first hurdle you have to overcome to get to that next level of that conscious incompetence.
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: That helps them transition to go okay, now I see where my hole is, i see my blind spot and now I've got to create program to help me get to that next level.
• 7:27
  Speaker 1: Then you take them to the conscious competence piece where now they are actively thinking their way through situations.
• 7:32
  Speaker 1: They know the problem and they can work through it on a conscious level.
• 7:36
  Speaker 1: It's not something that's just instinctive or intuitive at this point, but it's still something they're doing at the conscious level And the highest level you can get to is that unconscious competence And that's where you can do it without thinking And that's where you know we have the conversation about Malcolm Gladwell in the 10,000 hours.
• 7:53
  Speaker 1: That's where you've put your time in into the training.
• 7:55
  Speaker 1: It's been reinforced And now it's just kind of second nature in part of who you are.
• 8:01
  Speaker 2: So it's set then that 10,000 hours, a lot of sets and wraps and doing it over and over again, so at three o'clock in the morning, a just second nature, absolutely.
• 8:10
  Speaker 2: How do we institute that?
• 8:12
  Speaker 1: What's some examples I think the biggest example when you start talking about BlueCard is that as you get through the certification lab, you can probably take just about anybody from that unconscious incompetence up to a conscious competence.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: We can get them to that level.
• 8:26
  Speaker 1: But if you want to have them transition, to put the hours in to get to that unconscious competence, well then that takes additional sets and reps, that takes additional continuing education classes, that takes additional checking off on your occupancy types.
• 8:41
  Speaker 1: Those are the things that you have to engage with on a regular basis.
• 8:45
  Speaker 1: You're trying to undo in a lot of situations years, decades of institutional or cultural behavior, and you're having to undo a lot of that and build a new system in its place.
• 8:56
  Speaker 1: And that doesn't happen overnight.
• 8:57
  Speaker 1: This isn't going to flip a light switch.
• 9:00
  Speaker 1: So if you want there to be permanence with what you're doing, with your training program, you have to invest the time to repeat it over and over and over again.
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: That's the beauty of the sets and reps, that's the beauty of our certification process And then the recertification process that we go through every three years.
• 9:16
  Speaker 2: Nick John, you've been involved in training adults for a long time.
• 9:22
  Speaker 3: Now, these shifters, these The B shifters.
• 9:26
  Speaker 2: Definitely, the Peter principle probably applies to a lot of them.
• 9:28
  Speaker 2: What's been your experience with training and some of these methodologies that Jeff's talking about?
• 9:34
  Speaker 2: Well, it follows what Jeff said, is you?
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: got the cognitive in the front end.
• 9:37
  Speaker 3: So they need to understand it to this degree so they can actually physically do it.
• 9:43
  Speaker 3: The psycho motor piece, and then the your third phase is your beliefs, your, your core, fundamental beliefs, that I have learned something that has changed what I think about the way this work should be done.
• 9:56
  Speaker 3: And you're right, we started teaching blue card, i don't know, probably like 2008, like the formal, where the cognitive was online.
• 10:06
  Speaker 3: We would show up and do the psycho motor piece, the five, what was the six day cert lab in the beginning.
• 10:11
  Speaker 3: So everything Jeff said is what I have experienced over my life is you would show up to a place and we would have a talk, and so it was a talk and they would learn nothing And we would fight for two to three days.
• 10:26
  Speaker 3: Right, and that's what you're doing is they're?
• 10:28
  Speaker 3: they're giving you their beliefs.
• 10:29
  Speaker 3: They're deeply held cultural beliefs of being a firefighter, which it lives very high in their it, in their brain.
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: It's up there with their family and everything else.
• 10:40
  Speaker 3: So this isn't like, oh, some other work related thing that they could give a shit about.
• 10:45
  Speaker 3: This is like no, this is who I'm.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: Ambit the core.
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: I work on a ladder and this is what ladders do, or safety officers or whoever it is, the ops chief.
• 10:54
  Speaker 3: So we would argue and fuss and do all of our nonsense or be shifterism, and then, like you said, jeff, when we get to the SIM lab, the psycho motor piece of it is where.
• 11:06
  Speaker 3: That was the proof of the pudding.
• 11:09
  Speaker 3: And then there would be a transformation on about Wednesday.
• 11:11
  Speaker 3: As they would start, the discussion would go into a different way, as you weren't fighting anymore, you were more like a sponsor, let's, yeah, an advocate for them then and said no, no, no, no.
• 11:31
  Speaker 3: And so it worked, i think, because they recognized that I was as screwed up as they were And the system had had a pretty good effect on me.
• 11:42
  Speaker 3: So they accept you as one of their own and then they would progress with it.
• 11:48
  Speaker 3: So by the time you leave Friday, man, you were hugging and kissing and exchanging contact info in the parking lot And in fact sometimes they're telling you things they shouldn't tell you.
• 12:00
  Speaker 3: You know they're felonies and things.
• 12:04
  Speaker 3: And then I don't need to know this part of it.
• 12:06
  Speaker 3: I come from a fire department.
• 12:08
  Speaker 3: I've done the same thing So, and really that has been a very fruitful journey for me, because our relationships are built on us becoming better.
• 12:19
  Speaker 3: So it's fun to watch because they come into the system then, and some of them have been in here for a long time 10, 12 years now And then they come back and we're all on the same page and then they make suggestions to make the program better And it's like have you thought about this or doing this?
• 12:36
  Speaker 3: And you're like, oh no, we haven't.
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: That's an excellent idea.
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: So that's where the changes come from.
• 12:42
  Speaker 3: In fact, for a long time, what happened is we would go on the road and they say this is a Phoenix fire department volume two that you're teaching us.
• 12:50
  Speaker 3: And you're like, nah, it ain't that anymore.
• 12:52
  Speaker 3: Well, 15 years later, it isn't, it's blue card, and the people that change blue card are the people that have been doing it for the last 15 years.
• 13:03
  Speaker 3: So blue card has evolved into its own system.
• 13:05
  Speaker 3: In fact, we have had people from my former department come to workshops and they would say this is a blue card And you're like, yes, it's in the blue card building.
• 13:15
  Speaker 3: We're teaching blue card.
• 13:16
  Speaker 3: You're doing something else where you work than what we do here now, because it's 15 years old, it's changed, it's evolved, it's gone.
• 13:24
  Speaker 3: We've heard this before.
• 13:28
  Speaker 3: If you ain't moving forward, you're falling back in the world.
• 13:31
  Speaker 3: And so you see fire departments to stop training or say we've got it figured out now.
• 13:36
  Speaker 3: Now what they're doing is every day they get up and they take a step back in the future five more years every time.
• 13:42
  Speaker 3: So to stay at the front edge of this, you got to keep looking and changing.
• 13:49
  Speaker 3: The system always has to be going positive repair.
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: The blue card is not perfect.
• 13:56
  Speaker 3: It never will be, and it will continue to make these incremental changes where it's better and better and works more effectively for all of us.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: With blue card.
• 14:05
  Speaker 2: There is ongoing continuing education, there's refresher, there's continuous measurement annually on whether or not you have the skills We so often.
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: And you hit on it, get sucked into the one and done.
• 14:20
  Speaker 2: Oh, i went to an extrication workshop, right, and you never do that skill again And you're no good at it because you're not refreshing the skill.
• 14:30
  Speaker 2: So how do we?
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: how do we battle the one and done syndrome and and get through to the people who maybe we need to get through to at the fire department?
• 14:39
  Speaker 3: Well that's you'd use the excellent example extrication.
• 14:42
  Speaker 3: I was an extrication professional.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: I was.
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: I freaked out on extrication while I worked on a ladder truck a hundred years ago.
• 14:50
  Speaker 3: I could, i could do extrication blindfolded.
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: So I have a competence in it.
• 14:56
  Speaker 3: I stopped doing it because I'm so good at it.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: What happened to cars in the last since then?
• 15:02
  Speaker 3: They're electric, they're different safety systems.
• 15:05
  Speaker 3: So it's the world changes.
• 15:07
  Speaker 3: If we're not looking at how that affects our processes and the way we do our business, then we're always going to be behind that.
• 15:15
  Speaker 3: So if you're the extrication guru in your fire department is you have to look at new cars all the time and say I can't cut the rocker panel by the post here because if I do it's going to blow up the batteries or it's going to snip a pressure cylinder for an airbag.
• 15:32
  Speaker 3: So you have to.
• 15:35
  Speaker 3: We live in an occupation where it's always changing.
• 15:37
  Speaker 3: Buildings are changing, cars are changing, fire changes.
• 15:41
  Speaker 3: What burns changes.
• 15:42
  Speaker 3: Fire doesn't change.
• 15:43
  Speaker 3: The world is the universe, but the stuff on fire changes.
• 15:47
  Speaker 3: So that kind of changes, that dynamic.
• 15:49
  Speaker 3: So if you're not always looking at that and cooking that back into your incident operations, your incident operations will slowly grow out of date and then stagnant and then out of date in the fire service, becomes unsafe at the fire service.
• 16:05
  Speaker 3: So we expose ourselves to unnecessary risk because we refuse to educate ourselves to the hazards that we deal with and face every day.
• 16:15
  Speaker 1: No, I agree 100%.
• 16:16
  Speaker 1: And not only do we, we fail to evolve their, their organizations out there right now that actively know that they have policies, procedures, guidelines, SOPs that are out of date, aren't exercise or don't align with current practices.
• 16:31
  Speaker 1: You're setting yourself up for failure If you are not evolving, if you are not improving, you are working towards your own extinction And unfortunately, we live in one of the more dynamic industries that you have to work And if you don't stay on top of it, you are going to fall woefully behind and get your people seriously hurt.
• 16:50
  Speaker 3: Here's an excellent example.
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: We were in a place here not too long ago and we're doing a blue card class and it's new for this particular fire department And there's people that have been doing things in a traditional way for a long time and they're attached to that and the rest of it.
• 17:05
  Speaker 3: So we're going back and forth and we're talking about, you know, on deck and it mayday operations and all the rest, and they're like well, we do this and we do this, and blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah, and you're like, oh, yeah, okay, that's fine, i understand what you do.
• 17:17
  Speaker 3: I used to do this too.
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: So there was somebody in the group and they, they, they made the comment to everybody and they said what SOPs do we use today for those operations?
• 17:28
  Speaker 3: And the people, the students, said we use the Phoenix fire department, volume two.
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: We went there in 2002 and Jimmy, the shift commander, went.
• 17:39
  Speaker 3: He brought the volume back and we tore it apart and you know, we, we applied it to our thing and that's where we're at.
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: And so the person looks at you and says, okay, you were from there, right?
• 17:50
  Speaker 3: And I said, yeah, i was.
• 17:51
  Speaker 3: In fact, i wrote some of that 2002 you took back home and that was it.
• 17:55
  Speaker 3: He said thank you.
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: He says okay, so we have a problem doing this incident operation.
• 18:02
  Speaker 3: We use this old system that this idiot was part of way back when, and now his fire department stopped doing it because it didn't work for him.
• 18:12
  Speaker 3: One day And you know we've kind of talked about what that looked like Why are we arguing with the person who we took the shit from initially about the new stuff?
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: He says this doesn't make any sense to me.
• 18:25
  Speaker 3: He's like well, yeah, it really doesn't, but we're the fire service and firefighters.
• 18:29
  Speaker 3: If there's not a fire, we're going to continue fighting And we'll fight over whatever it is that you put on the table.
• 18:35
  Speaker 1: That's all this is.
• 18:36
  Speaker 1: I think that ties back exactly to the whole adult and order piece is that they are so wrapped up in self concept And within the fire service, that self concept is tied directly to our identity and our identity for some reason is also intertwined with our culture.
• 18:52
  Speaker 1: So how we do things is how we identify and see ourselves, and when you come and say something that is counter to how I see myself, i have to react, and sometimes it's not.
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: It's not a positive way because I've got to work through all those feelings.
• 19:07
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's silly, the things we hold the darest.
• 19:10
  Speaker 3: So you thought, well, why don't we change this?
• 19:12
  Speaker 3: I mean like we were paid this much last year and we got paid a little extra this year.
• 19:18
  Speaker 3: We're okay with that.
• 19:19
  Speaker 3: That was a change.
• 19:20
  Speaker 3: That was a change we all could stand behind.
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, we got an extra day off or whatever it was.
• 19:27
  Speaker 3: But I think you're right.
• 19:28
  Speaker 3: It's like no, no, no, no.
• 19:29
  Speaker 3: If I don't go to the roof and do X, y and Z, or I don't go to the back and do LMN and O, but every time I go to a fire, this is what I have to do for us to be successful.
• 19:40
  Speaker 3: This is the way I was trained.
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: And I think we get lost in the forest and we're like, well, why is?
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: are we still doing that?
• 19:47
  Speaker 3: That doesn't work.
• 19:48
  Speaker 3: If you do this, it eliminates the need to do those three things, whatever it is.
• 19:53
  Speaker 3: But I think there are those third rails with firefighters that you don't screw with certain things.
• 20:00
  Speaker 3: We went from 100 strokes per minute for CPR to 200 that fast.
• 20:06
  Speaker 3: It was like one day There wasn't a picket line or a wildcat strike over that.
• 20:12
  Speaker 3: Nobody cared.
• 20:13
  Speaker 3: No, yeah, but you said we're going to do this a little different on the next house fire.
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: Oh no, we're not.
• 20:19
  Speaker 3: You're like no, no, no, no, this isn't okay.
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: No, absolutely not.
• 20:25
  Speaker 1: I think the EMS analogy is absolutely on point.
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: It used to be priority to get an airway and sure breathing, that the compressions was something that was secondary after we made sure all those things were there.
• 20:37
  Speaker 1: And then they come in on a moment's note and say you know what?
• 20:40
  Speaker 1: We got it wrong.
• 20:41
  Speaker 1: The most important thing for us to ensure that we got compressions, that we've got a cardiac signal moving up and down this person's body, we've got to circulate blood.
• 20:48
  Speaker 1: We can't walk in and change a fire SOP like that because everybody gets in an uproar.
• 20:54
  Speaker 1: because we've identified with what we do.
• 20:56
  Speaker 1: We know the simple task that we do, and to ask us to change task is asking me to be vulnerable for a few minutes because I may not be as good as I am at these three things you're asking me to do.
• 21:09
  Speaker 3: So, Jeffrey, let me get this straight In your fire department, when you changed EMS protocols, you didn't have paramedics standing on the table screaming over my dead body.
• 21:18
  Speaker 3: No Mine either.
• 21:21
  Speaker 1: Nobody's banging on the table, nobody's throwing up an uproar.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: You're going.
• 21:24
  Speaker 1: You know what.
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: We're assuming that the people who are making this decision know what they're talking about.
• 21:28
  Speaker 1: I think that's one of the things that becomes the most incredible conversations about.
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: The on deck piece is that most of the fire service adopted a RIT model that came from Phoenix And then Phoenix exercised it, had a problem with it, saw it in real time and goes.
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: You know what?
• 21:42
  Speaker 1: We're going to spend the next five to six years figuring out if this works for us following the Tarver incident.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: And then you came back, says you know what This is not the most effective way to deploy.
• 21:51
  Speaker 1: Came back with a new model, tested that new model over and over again to say this is it.
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: And now you're going back to departments and departments were wanting to say no, no, no, we do RIT.
• 22:01
  Speaker 1: Hey man, the person who taught you RIT is telling you it's a failed system.
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: How we can't listen to that, i don't understand.
• 22:10
  Speaker 3: Yeah.
• 22:12
  Speaker 2: And we hear it every single class we do.
• 22:15
  Speaker 2: What about RIT?
• 22:16
  Speaker 2: We need a dedicated RIT.
• 22:18
  Speaker 2: Even though you show them, less than 10 percent ever get rescued by a RIT team.
• 22:23
  Speaker 2: And you know, in the words of the former ops chief of Phoenix, rapid intervention isn't rapid.
• 22:29
  Speaker 3: But well, just as they hear that they still believe in RIT.
• 22:33
  Speaker 3: Well, when you really look down that hole, if a RIT team saves you, there's a 50% chance the RIT team's going to have their own Mayday during that rescue, because the fact that it took an outside team to come in and get you is a sign that something is haywire in the thing.
• 22:52
  Speaker 3: So I mean, those were the discussions that I don't know.
• 22:56
  Speaker 3: for 10 years You could pull a string in my neck.
• 23:00
  Speaker 3: when I got there, it was the same set of questions of why it wasn't questions that was no, no, no.
• 23:06
  Speaker 3: now wants your question, basically.
• 23:08
  Speaker 3: And so you'd fight with them and you get I figured out.
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: if we get till Wednesday, we do a couple simulations, you're done, you'll see what it is and that's what happens.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: You said it, jeff, when they do the psycho motor, that is what did it.
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: When the program was brand new, there were some senior BCs that went through it the online piece and they came out and they said I understand what you're talking about.
• 23:33
  Speaker 3: finally, and they all said I don't need to simulate, i know what you're talking about.
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: I have lived through this and there's your solutions.
• 23:42
  Speaker 3: It was the younger ones that like okay, that was good, but no, it was the Sims where I really could figure out.
• 23:48
  Speaker 3: this is where it met the road.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: So, depending on the experience level of the person, they would have a different engagement at different parts of it Absolutely And you can.
• 23:58
  Speaker 1: as instructors, we start to be able to see it in the classes that we're teaching And you have these kind of stages that that student goes through and one of the first things that they go through is that you start to get their attention.
• 24:09
  Speaker 1: You have the students who are kind of withdrawn.
• 24:12
  Speaker 1: They're leaning back, their arms are crossed, their nonverbals all negative.
• 24:15
  Speaker 1: Then you start talking a little bit.
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: They start to trust what you have to say.
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: The arms come on cross, they start leaning into the conversation, they start engaging with you.
• 24:24
  Speaker 1: Once you've got their attention, then what happens is the information starts to alter their mindset a little bit.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: And once you've altered the mindset and they start them thinking and going down a different path, that leads to a whole new perception of understanding for them.
• 24:39
  Speaker 1: And once they've got that new understanding, that's when things start to change.
• 24:43
  Speaker 1: We start to see that it modifies our short term, our long term memories And over time, when we continue to apply this over and over, that's when we see the behavior modification.
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: And really all we're talking about training is really behavior modification.
• 24:58
  Speaker 1: How do we take somebody who's engaging in an action, a behavior, an activity that we want to move to something a little bit different.
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: We're behavior modification specialists.
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: That's what we do with adult training, especially as we're training on the fireside.
• 25:11
  Speaker 1: We've got to take somebody who's not wanting to engage, get them to not only want to engage but then want to pursue it on their own, and that's a pretty special thing that this program has done a wonderful job with over the last 40 years.
• 25:25
  Speaker 2: So when we did Instructor 1, 30 years ago or whenever, when a lot of us did it, you know there were the enabling objectives and you need to have the enabling objectives in order to.
• 25:35
  Speaker 2: But, in your view, how do you positively motivate an adult learner?
• 25:40
  Speaker 2: Because you know all day long, if you use the word mandatory, we all know how that goes over like a lead balloon with certain groups.
• 25:46
  Speaker 2: So how do we give positive motivation for them to lean into it and or even get them over that hump where they have some objections and we work through that?
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: One.
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: We have to recognize that we are all flawed human beings.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: We're all going to make mistakes and we can't make mistakes punitive.
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: We have to look at mistakes as an opportunity to learn and to improve the whole after action reporting system, the ability to go through these events and say, ok, here are the things that we did, here are some things that went well, here are some things that we can improve on.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: Here's how we improve.
• 26:23
  Speaker 1: If we use it in a positive way and we've spent it with a positive light, say here's what we can do and we showcase those that are doing well.
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: The fire service, if anything, is incredibly competitive.
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: You may not want to weaponize their success or, you know, set them up in a way to say you're competing against somebody else, but that's innately who we are.
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: We're always trying to show that our company is better than this company or this side of town finds better than that side of town.
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: If we can set it up and say, look, this is an excellent job, the next company comes up and goes I'm going to beat that, we're going to do this better.
• 26:58
  Speaker 1: And then you just keep this process where it is, continuing to churn out positive behavior, because you're in reinforcing positive behavior.
• 27:07
  Speaker 3: You know, vance, you said you know people's motivations for taking this Early on in the program is because promotional exams are so competitive, especially as you get into more bigger fire departments is on the West Coast and California.
• 27:21
  Speaker 3: Some of the first blue card folks were people that were taking company officers exams and they're looking for a leg up.
• 27:29
  Speaker 3: They're like, okay, if I get promoted, if I can move up the list eight positions, i'm going to make $25,000 more this year.
• 27:37
  Speaker 3: So they've got a financial motive for doing this.
• 27:40
  Speaker 3: So some kids and engineer some smaller to midsize California department on the coast I forgot which one, but it's part of the collective there He goes through the online program and he takes the captain's test and he scores top on the tactical.
• 28:00
  Speaker 3: He calls me to let me know Hey, you did, to thank me.
• 28:04
  Speaker 3: Basically, this is blah, blah, blah.
• 28:06
  Speaker 3: And so I'm talking to him.
• 28:07
  Speaker 3: I said, how'd that go?
• 28:08
  Speaker 3: And he says, oh, it was the greatest training I ever took.
• 28:11
  Speaker 3: I've been in fire service 10 years and I have never been to anything or done anything that explained it like this.
• 28:16
  Speaker 3: Does this make sense to me now?
• 28:17
  Speaker 3: And he says in fact, it made so much sense And I did so good on the test.
• 28:22
  Speaker 3: I ended up in the ops chief's office and I asked them why did I do a random search online and find the best training I ever took for the job I do?
• 28:30
  Speaker 3: here He says why is that?
• 28:32
  Speaker 3: So the ops chief called me and he called to ask me to no longer sell our service to his firefighters because he wanted to go to the program himself.
• 28:44
  Speaker 3: And I thought, well, i can't do that, i'm not going to, i wouldn't know how to start doing that.
• 28:50
  Speaker 3: If they're going to do it, they're going to do it.
• 28:51
  Speaker 3: I'm sorry, but he says no, it's going to screw up me implementing it.
• 28:55
  Speaker 3: Here I thought, well, you know, really, if you think about it, if the workforce is going to do it ahead of you, why would you stop them?
• 29:01
  Speaker 3: I said they're doing your job for you.
• 29:03
  Speaker 3: And he got kind of pissed off and hung up and I haven't talked to him since, but I think his department's doing blue card now, or has been, so I think that's a.
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: I think we look back and I can even reflect on my short time in the fire service, you know, relatively speaking, especially with the folks in this room, and I can say that there was a time, especially incident command was one of those things that it was a proud and protected knowledge And if you had that you weren't sharing it because it puts you as part of an elite group.
• 29:31
  Speaker 1: You were an exclusive club And for those of us who wanted to learn incident command, we turned on the radio of a working fire.
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: We said the words that were coming over the radio And then, when it was our time in the seat, we said those words.
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: We said them at this time and we made sure that we wanted to make sure everybody be advised to what we were saying.
• 29:49
  Speaker 3: And we see this path of response to everybody downstairs to say the exact same thing.
• 29:53
  Speaker 3: You know, my old man used to tell the story.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: He said the guy I don't know who wrote it, but the guy who wrote the New York City ladder manual which was like the Bible for the, maybe still is for the American fire service, that gentleman who wrote that they had to hide because they wanted the ladder.
• 30:11
  Speaker 3: People in New York wanted them dead because he let the secrets out.
• 30:14
  Speaker 3: Everybody knows.
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: It's almost like you're a wizard and you get.
• 30:19
  Speaker 3: If you give that away, then the gods will punish you or something.
• 30:23
  Speaker 3: And it's like no, you train it to everybody.
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: Come on.
• 30:28
  Speaker 1: This is the one piece that ties on every incident scene.
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: If you're not all competent at incident command, then your scenes are going to devolve into, so hopefully that is not something that is unsafe or hurt somebody.
• 30:41
  Speaker 3: Yeah, i hear you, true that.
• 30:46
  Speaker 2: So how do we measure, then, success when it comes to learning?
• 30:50
  Speaker 2: What is, what is the best methodology to figure out?
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: Okay, you've got it, you absorbed it, you're ready to go put it into?
• 30:58
  Speaker 1: action, the honest, the honest truth.
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: If we want to measure success, we've got to look at how we perform operationally.
• 31:05
  Speaker 1: We can give test, we can give cognitive tests to say talk, oh, test over a ladder manual.
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: Did you get all the stuff?
• 31:12
  Speaker 1: Do you understand what you were talking about?
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: Sure, yeah, i got my paws, like you know.
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: I've got my how you're and I know how to tie it off.
• 31:18
  Speaker 1: I'm good, awesome, you did a pass the test.
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: What we have to be able to see is our training in action.
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: If you have training people who aren't tied back into the operation side of the field, if they're not out there actually seeing the fruits of their labor come to fruition on the fire ground, then you don't have a real mechanism.
• 31:35
  Speaker 1: What you see is reductions of injuries, reductions of accidents, less driving problems.
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: You know, you start to see through training, because we don't have as many opportunities, you start to see the collective come together a little bit better.
• 31:49
  Speaker 1: So for me, measuring the only measure of success is seeing operational performance improve and how that impacts our life, safety of our members moving forward.
• 32:00
  Speaker 3: You know, we did a podcast yesterday and we talked about ops chief versus training chief Those two, you know, because that's the deal man, it is, it's one or the other.
• 32:10
  Speaker 3: And one of the things that we end up doing with Crazy Old Man at the end there as part of this recovery process is the operations division took over operations training for incumbent firefighters again, and we did it to the point that we were paying visits to the training academy and saying you got to stop this and this and this.
• 32:35
  Speaker 3: As an example, you would watch probationary firefighters on the fire ground work beyond their air supplies, and they would do it all the time because that's the way they were trained in the academy to be a true man.
• 32:47
  Speaker 3: True man don't need the air in that bottle.
• 32:49
  Speaker 3: You keep working, son.
• 32:50
  Speaker 3: So no, no, no, no, no.
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: That is counterproductive, it is ineffective and it is unsafe.
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: Knock it off.
• 32:57
  Speaker 3: And so there was like some range wars going on there at the end between us and the training division.
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: They don't tell us what to do, they come out It's ours, it ain't yours anymore.
• 33:07
  Speaker 3: So we became very territorial with who got to train in operations, as you just didn't let the same whistleblowers loose in that field, they would screw things up And in fact, doing blue card.
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: As long as we've had, we have had phone calls from fire departments who brought in a group of freelance incident command specialists.
• 33:30
  Speaker 3: And then they call a week or two later and saying, hey, our shift commanders are getting out of the car.
• 33:35
  Speaker 3: I said, well, when you bring people in to teach them that that's what they're going to do, yeah, well, we need them back in the car.
• 33:42
  Speaker 3: Well, i guess you're going to run them through the program again.
• 33:45
  Speaker 3: But quit, when we had training, that's the other thing.
• 33:48
  Speaker 3: I got training money.
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: I'm going to bring somebody in.
• 33:51
  Speaker 3: You better vet who you're bringing in that they're going to teach what your SOPs are.
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: Just this glad hand fraternity thing that we're going to have Sigma high from California come, no, no, no.
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: No, all training is not good training.
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: No, you need to know, you need to understand your why as an organization, what youth, those things you find valuable, what those things matter to you.
• 34:14
  Speaker 1: And you need to understand culturally what you're trying to accomplish.
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: And if you have people who are engaging in training programs that are offering a message that is contrary to what you want to do, then it's not valuable, it's not going to help you out.
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: I think, what to speak to what you're saying?
• 34:29
  Speaker 1: what we see all over the country, and probably the scariest piece, is that training is not only not tied to operations.
• 34:37
  Speaker 1: In so many places they're on a completely separate side of the house where they never get back to.
• 34:42
  Speaker 1: They're a box checking community who help people do the things that need to get done, but they have no operational say in what's going on.
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: It makes zero sense Training and operations if you want to have the chicken and the egg conversation, that ops chief didn't get there without training.
• 34:58
  Speaker 1: Those things go hand in hand.
• 34:59
  Speaker 1: They need to be on the same side of the house seeing and doing the same sets of behaviors.
• 35:04
  Speaker 1: If they're not, it's going to create a disjointed fire service.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: Exactly.
• 35:09
  Speaker 3: Well, you get back to that.
• 35:10
  Speaker 3: Ems example is you know you don't have paramedics saying I won't do this.
• 35:14
  Speaker 3: Well, it's common for to listen to tacticians to stand up and say proudly, i don't believe in any science.
• 35:22
  Speaker 3: The science is ridiculous because it runs counter to my tactical thing that we've been doing for 5,000 years.
• 35:28
  Speaker 3: You're like well, the world has changed in 5,000 years.
• 35:32
  Speaker 3: The one tactic that hasn't changed.
• 35:36
  Speaker 3: If you want to hang on to it water on the fire, absolutely.
• 35:39
  Speaker 3: But tattoo that on your heart and I'll die with you.
• 35:43
  Speaker 3: But all the rest of it until they have some replacement for water, that's just going to be a truth.
• 35:51
  Speaker 3: The rest of the stuff we do is all up for review.
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: You know, if we went downstairs and did a show of hands and just did a simple survey is Pluto a planet?
• 36:02
  Speaker 1: Everybody in that room downstairs would say yes, yes, i was taught.
• 36:07
  Speaker 1: Pluto is a planet.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: Only because it is Yeah, yeah, and then all of a sudden they say well, well, nope.
• 36:12
  Speaker 1: Then they tell you, nope, it's not a planet anymore.
• 36:13
  Speaker 1: Well, how do these things change?
• 36:15
  Speaker 1: And we just fundamentally reject it.
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: You know, we saw that over the last couple of years, a lot People just saying that they didn't believe in math, they didn't believe in science.
• 36:25
  Speaker 1: It goes back to that self-concept, it goes back to that identity.
• 36:29
  Speaker 1: This is how I see myself, and if you're challenging how I see myself, then I've got a problem, because I don't know how to react to that.
• 36:37
  Speaker 3: You know, maybe the problem is that we shouldn't be connecting those things, that that's how we see ourselves, Like I'm going to take this thing that is separate from me and I'm going to make it a foundational element of me.
• 36:52
  Speaker 3: So if this thing's wrong, then I'm wrong Absolutely, And you think.
• 36:56
  Speaker 3: Well, no man, why do we make life more complicated than it needs to be?
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: And why is that small piece of who we are become the whole of who we are?
• 37:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we are so much more than the job that we do or the craft that we engage in.
• 37:11
  Speaker 1: We are a whole and complete people And when we reduce ourselves.
• 37:15
  Speaker 1: Our language is so reductive that I am this, I do these things.
• 37:18
  Speaker 1: Oh, you've limited yourself to a lifetime of pain.
• 37:22
  Speaker 2: Yeah, exactly So.
• 37:24
  Speaker 2: we came up through, you know, going to school, going to class even our post-secondary education, everything we did was going to class.
• 37:33
  Speaker 2: And now we're in a new era of learning where there's a lot of self-directed learning.
• 37:37
  Speaker 2: you know, even with Blue Card it's self-directed learning.
• 37:40
  Speaker 2: A lot of it's at your discretion.
• 37:41
  Speaker 2: There's a deadline.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: You have to finish it within a year, but it's up to you to really make your schedule and get it done.
• 37:49
  Speaker 2: How does that work And is that better?
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: I mean, is self-directed learning better than what we came up with?
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: I don't know that it's better.
• 37:59
  Speaker 1: I think each learner has a way that they want to acquire information.
• 38:03
  Speaker 1: I think for some, self-directed is less threatening I don't have to engage with the class and see myself in a reflection of others that I can, with my own insecurities, go through something and end up where I want to end up.
• 38:14
  Speaker 1: But I think it's a way of it's.
• 38:16
  Speaker 1: We always talk about, especially in the classes, having a tool in the toolbox.
• 38:20
  Speaker 1: This is a tool.
• 38:22
  Speaker 1: These are all mechanisms we can use to deliver information And if we're not evolving and engaging all these, then we might be missing out on a group of learners who learn exclusively that way.
• 38:33
  Speaker 1: We are going to have to embrace the fact that we now have generations of firefighters who almost live their entire life through social, through training, education.
• 38:44
  Speaker 1: Everything they do is through their phone And if we don't find ways to tie in the information and knowledge we want through that medium, we may miss them.
• 38:52
  Speaker 1: So this is this is our moment to evolve, and if we don't do it, then we're failing the next generation like we were failed from time to time as well.
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: Do you have anything else you want to cover on this or any points that you want to pass on to folks?
• 39:08
  Speaker 1: You know we get a lot of questions.
• 39:09
  Speaker 1: We get a lot of questions with the program, all of the instructors.
• 39:13
  Speaker 1: We can probably speak to the exact same things.
• 39:15
  Speaker 1: What we see coming out of classes is you've got a lot of folks who say the same thing I want to get the instructor stuff for Fire Studio.
• 39:24
  Speaker 1: I want to be able to be able to make my own Sims, i want to go back and create that.
• 39:28
  Speaker 1: And I think the problem with that is is what they're trying to do is what Nick spoke to in the very beginning.
• 39:34
  Speaker 1: They want to be able to say that if X building catches on fire, that we're going to do Y, z, w.
• 39:41
  Speaker 1: Here's what's going to happen.
• 39:42
  Speaker 1: And the problem with that is is BlueCard is about a system.
• 39:46
  Speaker 1: It's about a process.
• 39:47
  Speaker 1: It doesn't matter what the object is in front of you, it doesn't matter what the occupancy type is.
• 39:52
  Speaker 1: It's engaging a system in a process to solve the problem.
• 39:56
  Speaker 1: The fire doesn't give a damn about what you think it's supposed to do in a building or where it's supposed to go.
• 40:02
  Speaker 1: It doesn't go to class to learn how to be a fire.
• 40:05
  Speaker 1: That doesn't happen.
• 40:06
  Speaker 1: You've got to show up to any given situation.
• 40:09
  Speaker 1: Look at those critical factors and put a plan together to address that.
• 40:13
  Speaker 1: That's the system.
• 40:15
  Speaker 1: Exercise and practice the system.
• 40:17
  Speaker 1: Don't worry about the occupancy you're building.
• 40:20
  Speaker 1: There's 50 plus Sims that you can get through in this program 50 Sims and every time you run one Sim you can get a slightly different version.
• 40:29
  Speaker 1: Practice the system, execute the skills and you'll be okay.
• 40:34
  Speaker 3: Yeah, once you get good at that and you get your department certified.
• 40:39
  Speaker 3: And now you need to keep them up to speed.
• 40:42
  Speaker 3: That's where I would start to pull in my own tactical challenges And I would do it as more of a size up thing, not like when the ACME building burns down, we're going to do one, two, three, four, five and we're good.
• 40:55
  Speaker 3: It's like, no, no, no, we're going to do what's based on the critical factors and that's so we can practice an ACME, and we did that when I worked for the government.
• 41:04
  Speaker 3: It wasn't uncommon for us to do simulations and then have fires in those buildings or buildings very similar to them later on, and it was odd how much smoother they went after you had practiced them.
• 41:17
  Speaker 3: I think that you would find, like, if you looked at athletics as an example, the team that probably has the most effective practices not the most, just the most effective they're going to win.
• 41:29
  Speaker 3: They have the best, they have the best staffing, they have the most effective practices and they win the championship.
• 41:34
  Speaker 3: That's the way that looks.
• 41:37
  Speaker 1: I love sports, i grew up with it my entire life And I tell you to add to what you're saying and take it to one step further.
• 41:44
  Speaker 1: The teams that are most successful and whether you want to acknowledge them.
• 41:47
  Speaker 1: I look at the Popovich's in basketball.
• 41:50
  Speaker 1: I look at Steve Kerr, you know.
• 41:52
  Speaker 1: I look at whether I want to acknowledge it.
• 41:56
  Speaker 1: As a Texans fan, i have to acknowledge what the Patriots have done.
• 41:59
  Speaker 1: Those are teams who can show up at halftime, look at the critical factors, make the necessary adjustments and then come out and kick your ass.
• 42:08
  Speaker 1: Those are the teams that you want And those are the ICs that we want that they're not locked into a certain thing.
• 42:15
  Speaker 1: They're allowing the critical factors, they're learning the language, they're learning to listen and they take what it's telling them and they create a plan to solve that problem, not the problem they came here to try to solve.
• 42:26
  Speaker 1: That's it.
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: Well, that's a good spot to leave it.
• 42:30
  Speaker 2: It's been a minute since you've been on with us and it's really good to have you here.
• 42:34
  Speaker 2: Jeff, Would you like to do a timeless tactical truth?
• 42:38
  Speaker 1: Absolutely.
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: All right Time was tactical truth from Alan Brunassini.
• 42:50
  Speaker 2: And these are the cards that you can get at the B-Shifter store.
• 42:54
  Speaker 2: We draw one at random and we talk about it, We share it and today it's the Ace of Clubs.
• 42:59
  Speaker 2: And the Ace of Clubs from AVB says offensive operations are our strategic mode of choice.
• 43:08
  Speaker 2: Again, offensive operations are our strategic mode of choice.
• 43:14
  Speaker 2: I think that's interesting because so often we hear how you know, BlueCard is an aggressive, BlueCard is very aggressive.
• 43:22
  Speaker 2: Alan Brunassini was very aggressive.
• 43:25
  Speaker 2: Let's share our thoughts on this one.
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: Well, if you look at the safety systems that, the task level safety systems that all of us operated with and still do, they're built for offensive operations.
• 43:38
  Speaker 3: I mean Jeff King's here from the Houston Fire Department, the most well known for offensive operations is they.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: They took the turnouts to a whole new level there.
• 43:48
  Speaker 3: So that is just kind of who we want to be, that that's the way it's set up.
• 43:52
  Speaker 3: I mean, i think, to validate that is the NFPA's statistic that 50% of all structure fires in this country go out with one attack line flowing less than 300 gallons of water.
• 44:07
  Speaker 3: So that, in my mind, is an offensive firefight.
• 44:10
  Speaker 3: So 50%.
• 44:12
  Speaker 3: Well, i was a.
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: I was a command officer about the last 13, 14 years of my career.
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: If I got to the scene first, i would only transfer command about half the times because when I got there the fire was out.
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: They had all clear and under control.
• 44:24
  Speaker 3: There's nothing to take command of.
• 44:26
  Speaker 3: So it's the initial operation, the first four companies.
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: You change the tactical priority to fire control because fire control is how we protect life and property And the first four units are going for fire control.
• 44:40
  Speaker 3: I do not know anybody that is more aggressive than somebody that uses that approach is when I get here, the first four crews are going to have their shit on and we're going to engage the problem indoors at some point sooner than later, and this thing is going to last one, two work cycles.
• 44:56
  Speaker 3: In 15, 30 minutes We're done So and that is a typical blue card incident operation.
• 45:03
  Speaker 3: The fire department's going to blue card recently or finding that out.
• 45:08
  Speaker 3: They're like this is not anything of what I thought it was.
• 45:11
  Speaker 3: No, in fact, my biggest concern when I retired is we are getting too good at late stage offensive conclusions And we're doing after action reviews.
• 45:20
  Speaker 3: You hit the building and the whole thing falls over.
• 45:22
  Speaker 3: Yeah, this is boys we're going to have to.
• 45:25
  Speaker 3: I don't know what to do now.
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: I'm going to retire and teach to everybody.
• 45:33
  Speaker 1: No, i think look offensive as hard as this is to say, because for us to get to do it somebody has to suffer a loss.
• 45:42
  Speaker 1: But the offensive fires are what we live for.
• 45:46
  Speaker 1: That's what we train to do.
• 45:47
  Speaker 1: We talked about extrication earlier.
• 45:49
  Speaker 1: Extrication is fun because it's easy to set up and easy to do.
• 45:52
  Speaker 1: Forcible entry is easy to set up, easy to do.
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: To set up real live fires that equate to what we're doing on the fire ground is really hard, and when we get to show up and perform our craft, that ties back to who we are and our identity.
• 46:06
  Speaker 1: It just makes us feel good.
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: But I take exception to the piece that that aggressive and safety are these mutually exclusive terms.
• 46:15
  Speaker 1: I will stand by this for the entirety of my life.
• 46:20
  Speaker 1: You have an organization, you have a battalion, a district, a group of folks who understand the incident command system, that understand modern fire behavior and those tactics that would follow.
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: With that You can put them into a situation and aggressively solve more problems than those that think that they're outside with their boots on the ground trying to solve another problem.
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: This is, we can be safe and we can be aggressive at the exact same time, and this gives us a platform and a program which allows us to do it.
• 46:51
  Speaker 2: Excellent, jeffrey.
• 46:52
  Speaker 2: Thanks for being here.
• 46:53
  Speaker 2: Thank you, it's really good to see you again.
• 46:55
  Speaker 2: It's always fun to teach with you and your wealth of knowledge.
• 46:58
  Speaker 2: I'm going to put your information in the show notes So if anybody has a question about what we're talking about today and forthcoming, you're going to have a continuing education module on adult learning and some of the things that we talked about, so folks should look for that too.
• 47:11
  Speaker 2: Absolutely All right.
• 47:12
  Speaker 2: We'll talk to you soon.
• 47:13
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to B shifter.
• 47:16
  Speaker 2: If you have not already, please subscribe.
• 47:19
  Speaker 2: We need you to do that so we know that you're listening and you don't miss an episode until next time.
• 47:25
  Speaker 2: Thanks for listening to the B shifter podcast.