Latest / The Unfiltered Engineer / Ep 8: Sketch Before You Code feat. Joy (Johanna Mesa Ramos)
Transcript
- Vishakha (Vish): Hello and welcome to the Unfiltered Engineer. My guest today is Joy, a senior software engineer, tech lead, digital artist, lifter, and a professional anime binger. She spends her time bouncing between code, bodybuilding, drawing, and whatever anime has hijacked her soul that week. She finds joy in figuring out how complex things work, whether that's software, anatomy, or building a physique. Her life basically exists somewhere between code. barbell, sketchbooks and anime and the common theme is they're all painful. today we are talking about visual thinking as a skill. Welcome Joy to the episode Where Are You Tuning In From? Joy: Thank you so much. That was a lovely intro. And I just have to show my bulbasaur. I'm sorry. That's like the cutest thing I have next to me. Isn't he cute? And if you can see the stickers Vishakha (Vish): Yeah Yeah, super good. Joy: in my laptop, you'd understand the anime I watch. My laptop is just decked in cool stickers. So I'm Vishakha (Vish): It's Joy: tuning in from London where I know it's deceitful. It might look like it's sunny. It's not. Vishakha (Vish): Okay. Joy: That's just some kind of reflection from the cloud. And it's so untrue because it's actually quite cold. And grey. Like I don't understand why Vishakha (Vish): yeah. Joy: that is in the camera it looks like I'm shining in light. That's not true. It is grey as can be. It is not. It is Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Actually the window feels like here there is sun reflecting. Joy: an absolute lie. Which is terrible. It is absolutely grey. I don't know where that sign of whatever light is coming from. Ridiculous. Vishakha (Vish): Either way, you look beautiful. So I love that you're shining Joy: thank you. Vishakha (Vish): through this and we will get Joy: Yeah. Vishakha (Vish): started. So tell us a little bit about before we dive into some like real detailed questions, give us some insights, some context on what is it as a visual artist, like when you think about visual thinking, what comes to mind first? Joy: So one of the things that actually I found quite in common with all of that is that I the way my mind works, it needs to deconstruct the problem. So whether that is lifting or code or drawing, I need to have first of all a well definition of my goal, which tends to be either the resolution of the problem, and then I need to deconstruct it so that I know that as I follow the steps of that deconstruction, I can reach the final destination. And with visual drawing, for example, I can tell you that if I tend to define the kind of emotion I want to elicit with a piece. And based on that, I use all the features I have available within visual storytelling to achieve that. That's whether it's through composition or colors or whatever else. And I find that approach for me works across all the hobbies and skills I try to acquire. Vishakha (Vish): I'm also a visual thinker. Like sometimes you read so much stuff, but as soon as it's depicted visually, it makes it a lot more easier to digest the problem or the solution that I'm going with. if we were to say like, do you ever sketch or storyboard a technical problem before you touch code? Like what happens when you actually do that? Joy: So I don't usually do that for problem solving. I do do that when well actually that's not true. So when I do the you know the rubber duck technique, I usually end up bringing out either a piece of paper or in the screen itself because I have my tablet so I can draw with a stylus. And drawing out what I'm saying helps my brain, w whether it's whether I'm talking to my team in as a technical matter or to myself. And that can be and I'm not talking about UMLs, which are very technical. I'm literally talking, I draw a server and then I draw like ours. Like this is what we want. Here's the problem when I don't know when there's like a a sinking inadequacy between two services. How do we achieve so it's just those little drawings as you explain. And to and more than anything is to have a visual history of everything I've said verbally within the canvas. Because then people it's a lot easier when I do this a lot when explaining things to either because I have or I'm stuck in a problem and I'm talking to another senior and we're trying like they're trying to help me out or I'm talking to fellow team members in my team. It helps have that visual pinpoint because it can point to it and say, hey that right there, I don't understand that. Or That right there, I I don't comprehend how we would sync those two services. Or that right there, I don't know how they communicate. Versus if you don't have that visual canvas for them to point to a physicality, you are relying on them to be able to remember everything you've said verbally and then come back to like as if it were some kind of bookmark that you can just, you know, rewind to that. So I find that extremely helpful with the rubber duck technique. As well as when communicating whether it's something I'm trying to solve for myself or explaining to somebody else. Vishakha (Vish): I would love to see if you have something that you have drawn. Maybe we can see if we can share it here. yeah. Joy: no, nothing those are things that you just delete once a conver you you feel like, no, I would like instant deletion. instant deletion. There's Vishakha (Vish): Roskitch. Yeah, okay. Joy: no but like we never say that because at the end of the day is those are for work in progress things and they change. They're not. So Vishakha (Vish): Change. Joy: when you Yeah, there's more for the thinking process. Vishakha (Vish): Awesome. the you mentioned rubber that technique. Could you explain briefly about it and then we can go dive into the next piece of this topic? Joy: Right. So I was this I learned this way back in college where sometimes your brain is just stuck on the problem. You just cannot see another way to solve it. And you also have run out of things to try. Because as developers, you know, we we change something and we'd like hit run again, it's like it doesn't work. Hit run again, it doesn't work. And we change minor things and sometimes it comes to a point where you're like your brain is so saturated because you've been swimming in that water for so long you can not longer distinguish between up and down or left or right. The rubber dog technique is a phenomen a phenomenal way to refresh your brain and help you look through a new perspective. I equate it to this I find it very funny because when drawing one of the first tips that they give you is to flip the canvas. It's the same problem. So when you're drawing for a very long period of time your brain adjusts to whatever crap you're doing and you no longer see the mistakes. So I could be drawing a f I'm sorry, can I say battle words here? so I apologize for that thing. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Joy: I am I will warn you and and my team has already told me plenty of times. I have a terrible pirate talk because English is a very easy way for me to say bad words and I for some reason default Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: to that when I become like expressive. So I will apologize for that beforehand. Vishakha (Vish): Unfiltered. Right. It's unfiltered. Joy: Sorry. so in the drawing part, for example, when you're drawing a full figure person, there's usually some basic defaults where like you do like the superhero figure with like seven or eight heads, and you know, like you have landmarks so that the hand reaches the hips or whatnot. But if you've been drawing that for two, three, four hours, I promise you, your brain starts to merge everything together and it looks good. And that's that's when you're in murky waters. The moment you flip the canvas, which is like looking previously when we know when we didn't have the digital because I'm a digital illustrator, when you didn't have the paper, what traditional illustrators would do is that they they would use a mirror so that the viewpoint could be flipped. And the moment you do that, your brain's like, holy shit, this is completely wrong and it looks awful. So the robber dog technique is exactly the same. The moment you start getting out of your head. And explaining the problem to another developer as you voice it out loud to let them comprehend what you're going through. Usually, along the way, you go, fuck, that's the problem. Usually you end up resolving it yourself. Now, if you don't have a fellow human to talk to, I were I'm I'm a freelancer, I work a lot remotely. I promise you it's not, it might be like super stupid the first time. This is the reason why I have my ballbus are here. I literally just I just stick it there and I just I just talk to it out loud. the first times it was very weird, but after that you're fine. Like you'll get used to it. Vishakha (Vish): Okay. Joy: Talking about it out loud and trying to because the moment you try to the moment you start to explain the problem you're trying to solve with words out loud, you have to start to define in a manner that's not in your brain. And usually that's where you encounter the where you see the hurdle that you fell in that you didn't see before. And it's a phenomenal technique that I recommend everyone who's extremely old, very classical. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, I like that. there are so many times that I probably have done that already. And now that you speak about it, it's almost like, that's how I got to the to the solution, right? Like I was Joy: Mm. Vishakha (Vish): stuck with it on my desk doing the thing that I was doing, and it took me a whole day, wasted. Joy: Exactly. Vishakha (Vish): And then the minute you go to your theme and you say, I need some fresh eyes on it, and it's almost like How did I miss that? It was right there all the time, but it makes so much sense that that there is actually a technique that has a name. Joy: The amount of times I've actually done that in Slack channels where I've because you know, one of the things I absolutely love about my job is the remote asynchronicity asynchronity of it? I might have mispronounced that. And you can Vishakha (Vish): You said that right, yeah, asynchronicity. Joy: you can write, right? And at some point somebody else will return with a reply. And the amount of times I've spent crafting a beautiful message, defining the irresolvable problem. Like this is impossible to solve. We're never gonna get it. And then as soon as I send it, I go, shit, I know how to solve it now. And then it's me, the same thread going, Never mind guys, I solved it. Vishakha (Vish): Okay. Joy: It's always like that. Vishakha (Vish): This also reminds me that this is a technique that you have to train people to when they're Joy: Hm. Vishakha (Vish): coming in new. There were times when I had interns and I kind of found them being like repetitively asking the same questions. And then I realized that, hey, can you send me a message so we can go back to it and look at it? But part of them, it wasn't to create accountability, but it was more so like when you will write it, you will see it. If you will start to look at it a little bit differently. But I love this idea. There is also the pieces of like drawing something, and you said that about people can remember, like you're expecting them to remember when you've said some things just verbally, like dump it on them almost, and then with a diagram, it's like you they can point out and say, I don't understand this, or how are Joy: Exactly. Vishakha (Vish): we actually going to dive deep into this? Joy: Exactly. Vishakha (Vish): This is like so much more interesting in a way that when you're in a meeting room, you almost always need a whiteboard. You almost all always like Joy: Hundred percent. Vishakha (Vish): something like remote. do you have a software that you use? Like if you're working with somebody remotely, what's your easiest go to? Joy: My easiest thing the the whatever program the operating system my computer has and allows me to draw. Like it's like for me the tool is irrelevant as it you you don't need fancy Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, yeah. Joy: things. You just need something that lets you literally draw and that is it. You can even go as low as having a mouse and it takes you forever to like do the line. Doesn't matter. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: Like whatever I the pro the only solution I have is give me something that I can draw and there's like a background to it. I don't really have any go to's. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. I love that. I love that because sometimes we get so hung up on these other things that I have to learn. Joy: Yeah. Over yeah, yeah, that i that is the the pitfall of over optimizing things and you're like what tool should I Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: use and all the features that it can give me. No, you just need something unless you draw, it doesn't matter. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, we c it could be just a pen and paper and as long as you're explaining it to somebody, yeah. Yeah. Joy: A literal pen and paper. Vishakha (Vish): So I I think that's amazing. Like he said that tool is irrelevant that I think people should take it in a way that, you know what, the actual skill here is communicating visually versus figuring out what what and where am I going to show it. So we'll move on Joy: Exactly. Exactly. I mean Vishakha (Vish): to go for it. Joy: Yeah, I was gonna say, even at i i sometimes even if you don't have a stylus or you don't feel comfortable, Vishakha (Vish): huh. Joy: even with text, like you can literally just like write little words and be like, Okay, we start here and do the little arrow and we're here and then even with that in bullet points, 'cause I've done that as well. They all d your goal is simply to have a verbal dump of everything you've been saying so that people have a physical thing to point to and say, Hey, I don't understand that. Can we go back to that? instead of just dumping verbally and then assuming somebody can go back to it and be I think I have terrible be fair, to be fair. It's a very selfish thing I do because I warn my entire team every time. I have have you seen find do you know finding Nemo? Dory? Yeah, Vishakha (Vish): Yes, yes. Joy: that's that's the equivalent of my RAM. That's it. Like within five minutes I Vishakha (Vish): Ha ha ha. Joy: will forget what I said. So essentially this is also to save my own ass and be like make sure that Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: you portray everything so that if they ask you something 'cause I won't remember. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: It's like, I did say that. Let me let me like sh double check. Vishakha (Vish): It's the easiest way to build context also. Like I bet as a freelancer, you're probably working on multiple projects, and then it's Joy: Yeah. Vishakha (Vish): easy for you to go back and forth between two things or just going back to something you said maybe three days ago, right? So and Joy: Exactly. Vishakha (Vish): I absolutely want to highlight, you said something about it could be a text and pointing arrows, and it could just be a verbal dump. And I want people Joy: Literal. Vishakha (Vish): to identify like this was one of the things that I felt like visual thinking means it has to have circles, rectangles, and beautiful things, but it's more so organizing your thoughts in a way where when you're presenting it to somebody, it forces you to think a little more sequential in a way that the other person would understand. So it's not if you're writing, it doesn't mat like it doesn't matter. It's Just write it in a way that is easy to comprehend, I guess. Joy: Hold on. It's exactly that. the moment that you that I start drawing it, I also have to make sure I portray it in a clear manner. That forces you to be clear in communication. And honestly, that is the hardest thing to get through is communication and making sure that whatever's going up here doesn't get lost as it comes out here. And then on top of that, it doesn't get lost as it goes in through here through the other person. So like three hurdles you have to get through. Vishakha (Vish): In there are so many steps to getting from a problem. Joy: There's so many yeah, yeah, yeah. They you have so many doors for things to go wrong. So you just you're just trying to make sure you have a clean you know, give yourself Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: the best chance with that. I found I've done I've been using it for years and I love it. It's my the best way I have for explaining things. Vishakha (Vish): I I how do you sort this is something that I find a little bit that I struggle with in a way that how do I explain my technical decisions to non-technical people? and this is one of the things where I know visual thinking could be immensely helpful, but there is still a piece about communicating in a way that they understand. So I'm just wondering, do you go through steps like, okay, this is my technical visual thing and then how do I translate it to a non technical person? Joy: no. Yeah, no, that's easy. That's so that I've never f I didn't really have a problem with that one. But it does have one KVAT, which I find it's a good feedback. It's an out of feedback for yourself. If you cannot explain that what your solution is to a non technical person, that means you cannot abstract it enough. That means you don't know it enough. One of the definitions for me to state that I know something means that I can explain it in multiple levels. What do I mean by levels? But technical person, absolute details, nitty gritty. Down to the like belowest below. Abstract a little more, maybe to a product manager who's a little more used to like the technical side and abstract it all the way to a stakeholder who has zero knowledge of difference between what a printer does and what a phone does. They just want it to work. And you have to be able to manage to get that information to them. So the different levels require different abstraction. For you to be able to do that, it means you really understand the problem. If you're not able to do that, then my guarantee is that there's something in there that you don't know. You should be able to abstract it. So what I usually do for stakeholders are not technical, I abstract the information that is absolutely relevant to them. So they don't give two craps if I'm doing this in JavaScript or I'm doing this in PHP or if I'm doing this with Laravel or if I'm doing this in Python. Like they don't care. They just want it to work, right? So that's what you go to. You abstract. You explain, well, the reason why we need to do it this way is because we have two different services. What they're like what language they're programmed on, they don't care. And then you explain. Well, in order for them to communicate, like they speak different languages. So I need to have like a middle service in between, so that is like the translator, blah, blah. So you try to abstract it in metaphors and you try to connect it to everyday life things that when you explain to them, they go, yeah, that makes sense. You just have to connect it to their level. That's it. And if you can't, that means you don't understand the problem that you're trying to explain. Vishakha (Vish): But I I find that I was overthinking this piece the minute you were saying Joy: Mm. Vishakha (Vish): it, like overthinking in a sense that okay, but how do I tell them that there are two services that they are not able to communicate? But I think the the part that you said about like connected with the everyday things that Joy: Exactly. Vishakha (Vish): they're using, which is the piece that I feel like I was missing when I was communicating Joy: Mm. Vishakha (Vish): with other people, and I'm like Okay, sit me down with an engineer, I can explain in details what we are going to change, what's going to happen, but that abstraction level, and also to understand, right? Like this is a person who won't understand or who doesn't care about those details. So a part about it is Joy: They don't care. Vishakha (Vish): no, yeah, knowing how much they need to know and how much do I need to convey, and then abstracting on top of it, and it's not that hard, I think. I would want to challenge myself to understand that just use the terms that they are using and that's how you would speak the language. Like I love that. And Joy: We go. There we go. So like an is a tea tip that I use is that if I start using a lot of jargon, which is very technical words that only a fellow developer would know. So for example, rubber dog technique. You say that outside of the context of technicals, and people are like, what the hell is that? The moment I I if I catch myself or I hear myself using very specific, you know, jargon, technical words, I'm like, ooh. Ooh, then they're probably not gonna understand that. And you have to like they're not you can't expect everyone to ask you if it's not clear for them. so I'd rather make it as clear as I like to explain as I like to be explained. So whenever I ha I have another senior developer explain something to them, the first thing I tell them is I'm stupid. Like I'm I'm down ha like I'm downright a dumbass. So explain it to me like if I was a baby and you're like Bone feeding me the information so I can comprehend it. And I think that's the best way to do it. I do the same way with anyone that I have to explain things to. I think it's just the best scenario. Vishakha (Vish): That's a wonderful way to like getting the information across because if you were to go with the idea that they don't know anything, you you will end up doing your own research at length, plus communicating that research or that information to them. That in case you made some assumptions, those also Joy: And then Vishakha (Vish): come out clearly in that. And a Joy: Mm-hmm. Vishakha (Vish): part of it definitely is visual thinking. Like you put things in order for them to Take it in, like bite sized maybe. Joy: And something that I've been applying, I think, for the past maybe it's ye no, maybe more than a year. I remember reading where I read it. Well, there goes my Dory memory. I don't remember it. I don't remember if it was a book or it was a YouTube video. I don't like the the the what I got from it was fantastic. I am sorry whoever gave this advice that I'm not giving you the you know, the adequate thank you. And I hope karma doesn't come by me. But it was to state that because I used I I I committed that I I don't want to say mistake, but that default behavior, which was when I explained something, in my effort to ensure that they comprehend it, I would say, is that clear? Do you understand that? And I always got, yeah, yeah, I get it. And sometimes mm it was clear they didn't, but they were answering Vishakha (Vish): You can tell. Joy: positive to my question. And then I I remember reading was said, No, you don't ask that because first that puts the other person on the spot. And if they're not comfortable saying they don't understand, they might not even be able to tell you what part they don't understand. So it's like, huh. So I can't use that. So instead of asking in open-ended is that clear? during the process of the explanation, you usually summarize a little bit again. And in the mirror and in the middle of the summary, you go, Well, if I do this, what do you think is gonna happen? And if they're able to connect that dot. That means they understood everything I explained Vishakha (Vish): I think. Joy: because they're able to th they they they don't need me to tell them what the subsequent action is. So I say, Well if we do this, after I've explained this, you know, you you just like what do you think happens next? And then you go, Well, this happens. And then if they get it, it's like great, they understood the problem. And if they don't, based on how they respond, you can tell what part of the information they didn't get and you can go back to it and clear it up again. I found that a phenomenal tool. Hm. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Like I like the flip. It's almost like seeing it from the other side again. The Joy: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. Vishakha (Vish): just like no a yes. I almost feel like a yes and no question almost never gets you the information that you want. You have to frame your question in a way where it doesn't Joy: All right. Vishakha (Vish): it it makes it doesn't make them feel on the spot, but it also gives room for them to explore and be vulnerable and tell you that this isn't this doesn't quite feel right. Be it technical or non-technical person, I think it applies both ways. Joy: Yeah, yeah, I use that I use that in I actually have been using that in all aspects, including my parents when I talk to them and I'm explaining like because I'm big on supplements and I try to get my mom to like get her like stuff and and then I try to explain to her what it does and then instead of asking, is that clear, I go, Well, you know, you want to do this. And it works. It works. And it it helps with fluid information to see where the like where maybe some piece of data is missing for the other person and you can make it clear for them. It's a it's a great technique. Vishakha (Vish): And it and it's easy for us to miss out on also, like because we come with our own set of assumptions and we've been like for example, the the same thing, supplements, like if you've been taking long enough, you might already know the side effects or the food reactions and things like that, but you may Joy: Mm-hmm. Vishakha (Vish): not have conveyed and this this kind of builds it up, like it gives them a structure to ask the things that they might not know. is there Joy: Yeah, exactly. Vishakha (Vish): is there a principle from like from your visual sketch noting that you actually use when writing or reviewing code? Joy: can you can you rephrase that because maybe I'm not comprehending the question very well? Vishakha (Vish): So we talked about like the abstraction layer or maybe the designing a system part, right? Like if Joy: Mm-hmm. Vishakha (Vish): we went granular when you're actually implementing, is there something that you use as a visual thinking mechanism to translate what you had into code? Like are there more steps to it, I guess, if I wanted to put it in a way. Joy: No, more steps, no. So it's usually the the very generic explanation that I gave, which is first I need to understand the problem. Because if I don't understand what the problem is, hell knows what kind of solution I'm gonna create. So I really need to come. So that's usually my steps. Number one, understand the problem. Number two, as a human, how do I solve the problem? What does this mean? you know, I need to do A, B, C, D, E, F. And when all those are done together, either in parallel or sequentially, I get to the solution. And then the next step is what part of that can I translate to code? Right? Because those actions get translated to code. And then you start to see what can be done. and then once that's translated to code, the next step is how do you optimize that? Because usually the first solution you come to is like the most like you know, idiot, Vishakha (Vish): Basic implementation. Joy: idiot one. So you can definitely optimize that. Things are going well, if we did it this way, maybe we can bench A, B, and C together in parallel while the other ones get done and only two steps are actually sequential and you save a lot of time. Stuff like that. So it's for me, that is the gradu that is the gradual way of doing it. Do I actually write it down? That is the question I believe for visual feedback. I do not. I've done it for so long that is just there's no other way I problem solve. It's just that is I am essentially stuck in that manner right now and I don't even think about it. That's just it's just the way my brain goes one, two, three, four. I don't have to write it down. That's just the way I comprehend it and do it. Vishakha (Vish): Fuh. Joy: I do write it down if I get stuck in a problem and I talk to a fellow senior and then we're discussing things. And because usually when two seniors talk, there's a lot of information going back and forth. you can do this. We'd also optimize that. And usually we go off on branches like, maybe in a different ticket we do this. That's when I start to just jot down because they it becomes a huge to do. And it also helps to say, Well, I'm gonna do this on this one, like on this merge request and these other ones I will not do. And within this merge request, I need to watch out for these things and further like you know, farther like improve or clean up these tiny steps. But that's more of a me having shit memory. That's my to do list, Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: but not in the process of implementing. No, I've never done it visually. Like that's just the mode I work through. Vishakha (Vish): That's I think that's great. Like as long as but that also contributes that you understood the problem initially so well that it's o automatic. Like if there is Joy: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, no, but it's it's just I so that is a one thing. So for example, I've pair programmed he he's my senior, but he's also he he's a fun I he's a good friend as well and we do work together. And there were there have been a few times where we've pair programmed together where he's worked and and just I was, you know, getting used to the new project and the repo and stuff. And the way we go at attacking things is just black and white. So I'm more of a like this and like this and like stare at the air and Vishakha (Vish): Ha ha ha. Joy: stare at like my leaves and like because I've got I have I have tons of plants around me. I just love so Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: I stare at the leaves, I touch the leaves, I look at my like collection of like whatever. That's how I think, right? So this is not so the way I code is like eighty percent of the time is just me going like this inside my brain and thinking. And then when I have it clear, the rest of the time is actually coding. No, no, no. So this is this my friend, the other senior that I work with, he's like 5% like this. And then 95%, he starts typing and he thinks while he types. And I remember the first time we pair programmed together, that just frustrated me because I was like, but Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: wait, like what are you, what's your plan? It's like, I don't know, we'll see where it goes. I'm like, what do you Vishakha (Vish): Claire. Sim. Joy: mean we see where it goes? What are you talking about? So it's it's a di he has a huge difference and he's phenomenal Vishakha (Vish): Mm. Joy: because he cut he's I I I I go to him for a lot of help because he's got great architecture and design. Just that his brain works completely different from mine. It's very Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: stressful to see. but it's just you know, it's a good fun. Vishakha (Vish): I can imagine. Yeah. Joy: So that's why I said it's kind of funny because I I have my way of doing things and I'm stuck in it and it works for me. And what I'm trying to portray with that is that there really is no correct or one way of doing it. We all work differently. We all develop and program Vishakha (Vish): Okay. Yeah. Yeah. Joy: different and problem solve differently. There's not only one route. If you force me to do it the way he does, I would cry. I would cry because I I Vishakha (Vish): Mm-hmm. Joy: I can't like my brain would just go like this and be like, like, bitch, I can't do both. Like either you think and code or you know the other one. And if you Vishakha (Vish): Which we can yeah. Cold. Joy: forced my friend to do it my way, he'd fall in depression because he'd like I Vishakha (Vish): Yes. Joy: Like his brain doesn't think that way. He just Yeah, yeah, he starts doing. And it's y Vishakha (Vish): I gotta do it to see it. Yeah. Yeah. Joy: that's what I'm just trying to pretend that there's no right way. Like everyone does it differently. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: It's just this is the way I found works for me. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. And it also gives you the I feel like it also portrays that when you're explaining to people like this, there could be both types of people in the room. Joy: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. Vishakha (Vish): And then you have to find out your way where you can start, you can begin. And there is a learning process to all this. You probably will meet different kinds of people throughout your career and you have to be okay with presenting your ideas. In a variety of ways, right? And visual thinking is just one tool that you could use to portray your solution. And if that doesn't work for the person who actually goes and just does the code, maybe prototype is the way to tell them that this is what I have, right? And it's just being flexible in understanding and being open to this idea that people think differently. Joy: Flexible is the right way to go in pretty much everything in life. It'll help you a lot. Vishakha (Vish): Ha ha ha. Joy: It'll make your life so much easier if you're a little bit more flexible with things. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, I love that. the the one thing that I was curious about, like I know that I learn visually a lot more easier, but Joy: Hm. Vishakha (Vish): if you had if you met an engineer who you can see that they love visual thinking or they're able to understand it more, but if they wanted to build this as a skill, what would you recommend? How can they go about this? Like I know you've done this for a long time, but thinking back when you were first starting to do this and you were figuring it out, like how can they begin? Joy: If they so just to make sure I I comprehend the question, so this is someone that doesn't naturally default to this. This is something they want to add as a skill so that they're able to portray it visually Vishakha (Vish): Yes. Skill. Yeah. Joy: to another person. Vishakha (Vish): Yes, yes. Joy: The first way to do it is get a paper, get a pencil, Vishakha (Vish): Do it. Yeah. Joy: and don't be afraid to start doing weird scrolls on it. I'm explained to yourself. So that you're not because ideally usually the the hurdle that you'll find is first of all thinking that you have to draw a pretty bullshit line. You just have to do squiggles enough that you can understand. That's it. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Yeah. Joy: And essentially is for me, so for me came naturally. So doing circles. And doing like little arrows. I think it just I don't really have to think about it. It just comes. So if I were Vishakha (Vish): Yes. Joy: to do it as a skill, I would start practicing. Usually, if I'm on like if I suggest that if you're on the phone with someone and they're talking and they're telling you things, try to try to do a little scheme of what they're telling you. Like if Vishakha (Vish): Sketch it out. Yeah. Joy: your friend is explaining to to you, I went to like the the dealership and I had to like I don't know, renew my lessons and they were being a pain and there was like two lines and there was only one person serving the two lines and the two like you didn't know who who would go first because you had the two lines but it was only one person here and you were sort of like, Do you go? Do I go? And just try to jot it down and try to how would you like p like how would you paint that with little figures to explain it to somebody else if, for example, they couldn't hear you and you were only able to talk through paper signs because whatever there's some kind of Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: no you know, noise cancelling thing and nobody can talk and now you can only talk through little papers. Vishakha (Vish): Papers, yeah. I love that because I find that this is there is perfectionism that comes into picture when Joy: Mm. Vishakha (Vish): you think about dra drawing. But I love that you took like such an informal example that it doesn't before even going to the place that I have to explain this visually to probably my C suite, before that you just do it in your own desk, like do the same thing with informal things and maybe like even explain it to a kid, I guess, like and then test it out. Joy: No, but then not just that, just even to yourself, like you can you pick up the paper and look at it like, yeah, that's sort of understandable what I wrote. pretty good. I mean Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: usually these things so just as a K Vat, usually these papers if you take out of context and show to someone, people will be like, Whoa, what the hell? That's fine, because Vishakha (Vish): But yeah. Yeah. Joy: those papers are not to be meant to be substitute to the conversation. They're a supplement. There's a big difference between substitute and supplement. Vishakha (Vish): Yes. Joy: You you it's a comp so you need the vocal accompaniment to the what you're drawing for it to be comprehensible. It's not meant to substitute you, or it's not meant to be sent along on its own as a single unit and be like, well, whoever gets that, like whoever you know gets it, they'll understand when they read it, it's like, no, they won't. Because that's kind of Vishakha (Vish): No. Yeah. Joy: true. It's informal. It's not it's not a PowerPoint presentation. It is a complement. to your verbal explanation so that people have a visual feedback to refer to as well as to whatever additional information you're adding through the ears. I I that's why I'd like to like that I'd like to make that emphasis there. Vishakha (Vish): I thank you so much because that just opened up my mind Joy: No. Vishakha (Vish): and why? Because there was this article that I was reading and I was like, there is so much goodness in this article. And I was trying to dump all the information and it felt like I'm taking all the information and repeating the same thing that's in the Joy: Uh-huh. Vishakha (Vish): article. And I'm like probably duplicating the whole thing. But in my head, I think there are few things that I would want to take away and I would want to draw them out or pull it. Point, but when you said it's a supplement, that pulled off so much pressure out of me. Like it's like you're not trying to write down every single thing that Joy: Mm. Vishakha (Vish): matters, it's just the big points, which is where your smaller like bullet points or the arrows or like smaller text dumps that come in, and I I find that so refreshing because even for books I'm trying to retain the knowledge and I'm like, my god, this is so good, this is so good and you're like, Might as well like, you know, k yeah. Joy: Yes. Yes. You don't need the whole yeah, c yeah. They're so the explanation is definitely a supplement. It's a complementary to whatever it is you're explaining, verabely not much more than that. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, I love that. I love the distinction that you made, like the supplement piece. because it like I'll tell you, I have been trying to build this skill in a way that I want it to be natural. And there are so many times that I speak with people Joy: Mm. Vishakha (Vish): and it's not so much as I have difficulty speaking, but I find that it they can pull it in more and for longer if I have something visual to show it to them. Right. So and it keeps the conversation a little bit more interesting in that way too. Joy: think I mean and also if if also you have your you're doodling something and then you're explaining, you Vishakha (Vish): Mm-hmm. Joy: also remove that awkwardness of staring at each other and be like, blah, blah, blah, blah, do you get it? Blah blah just staring at each other's eyes. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. But yeah. Joy: Like, huh so if if you have both something c like a common thing to look at and it's the doodling and the stuff, it it like also feels a little more informal. And Vishakha (Vish): Relaxed. Yeah. Joy: there's that is one thing I really like to do when I So whenever I meant to lead or host meetings, within the first minute, I try to relax, relax the atmosphere because we're all human and when you're more relaxed, like communication Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: is a little better, we we think a little nicer and we're able to focus on the problem that we want to solve versus on on how we're being portrayed to the rest of the humans in that meeting. And if you can live relax that, that's better. And that also goes with conversations and explaining. The doodling also helps me very selfishly relax. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, absolutely. I I hope that people take take this from from Joy: Right. Vishakha (Vish): here. Like it's not just drawing, it's text stumps. It's like the small things that you can have, I guess like a third piece in your conversation. Like even right here, right now, right? We met for the first time and I just felt that there was an energy where we could talk easily, but let's say if that wasn't the case, right? It puts that attention to that third Joy: Pressure. Vishakha (Vish): tool. Yeah, right. And you can Joy: Mm. Vishakha (Vish): remove that essentially to this third piece of tool and allow them to even contribute to that white paper. So I love that. I very curious to know how do you put this skill you said you you do for your bodybuilding or like for your gym, Joy: Yeah. Vishakha (Vish): for your workouts. I'm so curious to hear how do you implement that in your yeah Joy: It's it's the same way. It's exactly the same way. So rather not visual, definitely not visual, but Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, yeah. Joy: at least the problem solving part, which is where do I wanna take my body? So what parts of my body do I want to change and what's the overall figure I wanna end up reaching. So based on that, that's the problem I'm solving. So now that I know what I'm trying to attain, I'm able to go to the next step, which is how do I get there? So then I can you know, look at videos and learn about hypertrophy, how hypertrophies done, how the exercises are done, et cetera, et cetera. And then from that is building my workout program, the weeks, the cuts, what I can do, the nutrition, et cetera, et cetera. So at least the structure of what I told you is the same across art, bodybuilding, all this like all the hobbies I might have. Just define the problem, deconstruct how I can get the solution to the solve that problem. And then just it the you know, the destructure, I need to like I need to des de gloss, you know, I need little Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: moving parts rather than a generic some solution. So I I need like little steps. And that's what I do with everyone. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: Rather than visually though, it's not a visual pen and paper thing, but I struggled. So there's this thing in bodybuilding called mind to muscle connection. And what that essentially means is if I'm doing a squat, that squat should be working out my quads. If I feel it on my lower back or if I'm feeling it on I don't know, on my abs, then I'm doing something wrong. And I find I found that at least for a few of the exercises that I did were atrocious. So I love building chest. I love building like the legs. And there's a Romanian deadlift, which is you have to Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: like there's a lot of moving parts to like make sure you don't injure yourself, like Strong back, rib cage kind of like tensing, Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Yeah. Joy: make sure you're pulling with the hamstrings, not with your back. It's a lot of Vishakha (Vish): With yeah, thank. Joy: moving parts that I was like, I I I'm getting this wrong because every time I did RDL I would get pain back. So what I do is Vishakha (Vish): Well. Joy: visualize the movement in my head. Because I can't draw that out, it would take forever. It makes no sense. But I would try to so like I try to close my eyes and at home without any weight, do the movement. with my eyes closed and try to I have if you want to know exactly what I'm visualizing in my brain is it's me as a little figure at inside here and I'm trying to highlight the muscle that I'm supposed to be touching within that figure inside my head. But I'm if I'm doing the RDL movement, so it's like stick your butt like sticking your butt out like like that and then you go down. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Yeah. Just Joy: But you're supposed to hinge with the hip, not with the back, because that's when Vishakha (Vish): No. Joy: you're like engaging your back. So it's then I would just close my eyes and be like, okay, highlight the hamstring. I know where the hamstring in my body is. But because it's not a muscle I'm used to flex like if I flight like if I do this, I know what it is. Like if I move my fingers, I know what the I know what that feels like. Flexing your hamstring is not common for me. So I would do the movement slowly and be like, Okay, I sort of feel it. I sort of don't and go back up. And I had to do that for ages before it finally clicked. Like the RDL is one of my favorite movements now. Took me like a Vishakha (Vish): Ooh. Joy: freaking year to get that thing to work. I used to like just get pain back all the time. Same with my shoulders. Like my shoulders developed a lot from chest workouts because I don't know what the hell I do wrong, but it became a shoulder workout instead of a peck workout. Took me forever to get it working. But it's usually that. So instead Vishakha (Vish): Uh-huh. Joy: of paper, it's the the vi the like the visualization happens inside my head. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: and I try to p like at home practice the the movement itself and try to connect it visually by highlighting that muscle and within the figure of myself. That's mapped out inside my brain. And that's what helped me anyway. Vishakha (Vish): I I can connect with this so much. I used to do CrossFit and I had instructors Joy: Ooh. Vishakha (Vish): and they were like they were so they would point out, they're like, No, you're not doing it right. I'm like, how do you know? Like they could tell. Joy: Right here Vishakha (Vish): I'm like, how do you know? Especially with deadlifts, it was so easy that they would say, You Joy: Yeah. Vishakha (Vish): are going to hurt your back. Please don't do that. Joy: Yeah. Vishakha (Vish): And I would I would be like, How? How did you know? Like, how did you know? Joy: You can see it you can see it on the hinge. Yeah, yeah. You can see it whether you're hinging at the hip or you're h like pulling with your with your back. It's not easy. It's not e Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Yeah. And they corrected me so much. Yeah. They corrected me so much. And and now that I do it, I can totally I can totally tell. Like if my back hurts, I can easily tell this was a wrong rep. Like I didn't I need to put my focus in there and get it like exactly visually imagining. Joy: Exactly. Vishakha (Vish): I can tell it hurts here. It hurts on the places that it's supposed to, I guess. It's not. Hurting as well. Yeah. Joy: It hurt is gonna exactly it's gonna hurt everywhere, but you want it to hurt at least in the muscle you're working out. And CrossFit's like I I'm dumb nah, I don't like it. It's a lot of cardio. It's raw. CrossFit is hard. No. Vishakha (Vish): But yeah. Yeah. And I learned all my Olympic lips there. So it was almost Joy: Mm, yeah. Vishakha (Vish): like they were my instructors were so amazing, but also so strict about it. They're like, we don't want you to get hurt. Please don't take it the wrong Joy: Yeah, yeah. Vishakha (Vish): way. It's just that because you're doing it for the first time, it's difficult for you to realize that these muscles are what should get affected. So We hope that you understand Joy: It is. Vishakha (Vish): and they would like make me keep lifting in an in a front squad, like keep bending and they'd be like, Is it hurting here? That's where it's supposed to. If it's hurting anywhere else, like you're not doing it right. That made it so Joy: So then you go back. Yeah, yeah. It it's it's Vishakha (Vish): funny. Joy: it's funny because It's small this not muscles that you're used to. and and making sure that that's what's getting worked out is such a Yeah, you you need mental cues, I think, for that. Vishakha (Vish): Yes. Joy: And so that's that that's another visual aspect of it. I watch a lot of so I got all my knowledge for the bodybuilding from YouTube channels. So one like Vishakha (Vish): Mm-hmm. Joy: the a huge one is RP strength and huge names like Vishakha (Vish): Okay. Joy: like Dr. Micus Rattel and Jared Feather and I think Horheb I forgot his l his last name. He's got a great Instagram page. Dr. I Vishakha (Vish): Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm. Joy: think Derek Woolcox as well. They've got phenomenal But I call verbal cues that help you. the one that helped me the most was one for the RDL. and the verbal cue is the verbal cue was as you're going down, picture, god, picture your your butthole pointing to the corner of the room. And that helps you like put your butt up so that you're stretching the hamstring as you go down. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Yeah. Joy: And it sounds silly, Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: but the moment that you visualize, okay, it's like if I have like if I need to point my butthole to the corner, like to the ceiling of like then you know as Vishakha (Vish): See you. Yeah. Joy: you go down, it's like, okay, it works, like it's my butt's now up and like all the forces Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: on the hamstring as you go down. That's that would be the vi the equivalent of of visual portraying with those Vishakha (Vish): Yes. Joy: cues to help you with that. And I found like I've made like those small verbal cues that I've gotten from those the the either Instagram pages or YouTube channels. Those are the ones that have helped me the most and like do the the exercise and be like, that's where it's supposed to feel. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. And it's going to be different for different people. Like I s Joy: Yeah, Vishakha (Vish): I hear the so so many instances, even when I'm doing yoga, it's like so many people would say it differently, but then one instructor would say something or one YouTube video would say, and Joy: Until it clicks. Yep. Vishakha (Vish): you'd be like, that's how it's like now I can feel where am I supposed to be Joy: Exactly. Vishakha (Vish): in this pose. And I absolutely love that. There was one more thing I think you'd mentioned. like you don't know, you cannot understand the muscles initially. But there was one piece my instructor also said that your body finds the way to least resistance, like wherever it's easier to go, it goes, but you have to be conscious to bring it back. And I think that's where Joy: Yes. Vishakha (Vish): all of these pieces come together that it's your responsibility to figure out what works for you and communicate Joy: Mm-hmm. Vishakha (Vish): it in that way, whether it's for yourself. or for other people. So I absolutely love Joy: Definitely. Vishakha (Vish): that. And Chuya, this was such an amazing episode. I loved all pieces of it, but I like to ask these three questions to all of my guests. The first one is if there was one takeaway that people would take from our conversation, what would you like that to be? Joy: Mm. Communication is a skill. And it's a skill that if you if it's not very honed on you right now, it doesn't mean it can't be. You have to practice it. And you have to figure out what part in your communication is lacking. So it's not just a generic thing. So if your communication is because you're too detailed technically, and you need to learn how to abstract, then learn how to abstract. If you need to learn to summarize, learn to summarize. There's also people that communicate with a lot of tangents. So instead of like sticking to the point. They tell you so many tangents along the way that you're like you lo you lose like you lose your audience. And by the time you're trying Vishakha (Vish): Yes. Joy: to get your message, like they're completely lost. Communication is an absolute skill that works phenomenal, not just professionally, but it's gonna help you in all areas of your life. So Vishakha (Vish): Areas of life, yeah. Joy: I would say find a way to help you with that because the visual part of me, like the technique for drawing, it was one of my hopes to be able to communicate w better. both with fellow seniors and with other with team members or with juniors that I mentor. And that was the way I found help me in that communication. Vishakha (Vish): I love that. And I like that you gave some examples on summarizing or tangents. Like that gives Joy: Mm. Vishakha (Vish): people it's not just speaking English, it's Joy: Generic. Vishakha (Vish): also sticking to the to the topic, what the other person Joy: Mm. Vishakha (Vish): wants to hear. I love that. The second question that I have for you is is there a podcast or a show or a book that you've been loving or anime? Joy: Oof Vishakha (Vish): Please go on with your list because I can totally see. Joy: Girl, I with that you have no idea. I could just I could have an entire episode of all the podcasts. I just binge. The first one, Vishakha (Vish): Really? Joy: yeah, I'm a I'm incredibly addicted to podcasts. and it's it's a whole gen like Let me just get my phone because my my I Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, yeah. Joy: just one second, because my name like the way I won't remember all of So for obviously for health, and this is just the sciencey, so it's not just health. It's probably one of the first podcasts I fell completely in love with. And that's the like doc the Huberman Lab podcast from Dr. Andrew Huberman. So it's if you like episodes that are very scientific with a lot of details and explanation where they don't just give you protocols for things, well they actually explain the problem and why this works and the solutions along the way. That would definitely be one of them. So it'd be the let me see podcasts. It you can say my stickers by the way. That's how much I love anime. Like if you don't have stickers on your phone, you guys are not living. Vishakha (Vish): I love that. Lily. Joy: I swear. So one of them, so the Huberman lab one. for exercise. it's not a podcast, it's a YouTube channel. That'll be the RP strength channel. The science so it's it's it's called science oof science lifting. So I rather than I guess vibe lifting. So it's science science proof lifting. That one along with Jeff Nippert's YouTube channel, ten out of ten, both of them, that's where I've gotten all my like all my knowledge for knowing what to do in the gym. Then there's also another phenomenal one, Modern Wisdom by Chris Williamson. And it's it's phen that podcast it the plethora of topics you can find there's just ridiculous. You'll find something you like and even if it's episodes that I've I've gone into episodes where the topic is not something like one of them was something about history or something like that I was like Vishakha (Vish): You think? Yeah. Joy: Like I I'm not really into that, but l let me just listen to it for a little bit and then I'm like, whoa, that was extremely cool and something new that I learned. So definitely that one is one I'd absolutely go for. the other one is probably very well known, Diary of a CEO. They're kind of similar, they're interview so all these podcasts, what they have in common is that they interview very well known people in their areas. So they they are outstanding people within their field of research. And they give you a summary of what they know within that area of of their knowledge. That's what I find so so cool. So they're they tend Vishakha (Vish): So yeah. Joy: to be just rather interviews. I'll give you one more because I have if I mean, I'm I'm not kidding. I have like Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: That I I I can't tell you all of them because it's ridiculous, but there is one that's just entertainment and I do have to give them a shout out because this is probably one of the first podcasts I absolutely binge watch and it's called the no, Ross and Carrie. And this is just pure entertainment. So this the like their friendship chemistry is just beautiful to listen to, but they tend to go on these little adventures so that you don't have to and they they sort of take a a bit of a scientific approach to it and then they report the results to it. So for example, they said, let's see if ear wax like you know the technique of ear waxing, like you pour wax into your ear and Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, yeah. Joy: sort of like clear something or not. They go approach a scientific this is what's supposed to solve, let's try out. They actually try it out try it out and they come back with the results and tell you. And I and they have such a sweet approach to it. And it's just extremely entertaining. And I mean Yeah, I I just I could go on and on. There's just so many. But I I think I'll stop there. Those those Vishakha (Vish): Okay. Joy: other ones I'd get too. Yeah. At least for podcasts. And it i Vishakha (Vish): I love it. Joy: if I have to say a list on anime, it just Vishakha (Vish): They may. Joy: I would I would not end. But if I can say just two, it would be My Hero Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: Academia. I absolutely love that show. I think it's our like this I suppose Gen Z's version of Naruto for Naruto was for millennials, my hero academia, that's what it Vishakha (Vish): Mm. Yeah, yeah. Joy: Gen C. And the other one right now that I'm enjoying Demon Slayer, that's the other one. And the third Vishakha (Vish): yeah. Joy: one is Jujutsu Kaisen. God, it's so good. I think I have yeah, so this one here is Jujutsu Kaisen, and this is Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: Bakugo from my hero academia, and this is also Bakugo from Hero Academia. But that character I absolutely disliked at the beginning of the series because if I saw a lot of me and him, a lot of that anger. I was like, I don't like this guy. And his story arc is so phenomenal. But by the end I just I I fell in love with that character. Just that's Vishakha (Vish): No. Joy: just how good the writing is. So those would be the two Vishakha (Vish): I love it. Joy: like the two really fast recommendations here for podcasts and anime. Vishakha (Vish): I love it. Thank you so much for sharing because I feel like when I hear it from people who are so into it, that's when I can like, you know, pick up the podcast. But if I want to go and search by myself, I think the diary of a CEO, I haven't bookmarked, but I haven't gone and listened to it. But now Joy: there Vishakha (Vish): that I heard like hear it, hearing it back from you, and by Joy: It's really good. Mm. Vishakha (Vish): the way, like the Huberman, Andrew Huberman's podcast, somebody like Joy: That's one of my I love that one. I love it. Vishakha (Vish): like my previous guest has actually also recommended that you'll see it and I'm now I'm like two people saying it. Joy: no, no, it's phenomenal. No, no, no. I am absolutely obsessed with that podcast so much that Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: it's probably one of the few podcasts I'm up to date with, and I've loved it so much that I have gone back to previous episodes of it just to re Vishakha (Vish): Episodes. Yeah. Joy: listen. And the protocol, so I like quite my I quite like because he tends to give direct applicable protocols to your life for that and Vishakha (Vish): Mm-hmm. Joy: One of the biggest changes I've done are through his podcast. Like my friends make fun of me because they say that my flat at night looks like you know the red district in Amsterdam? Do you know what the red district is? Right. So there Vishakha (Vish): No, I don't know. Joy: So in Amsterdam there's there's there's a there's a well known known street where people tend to go as tourism because y you have a woman providing sexual services very openly and agreeably and that tends Vishakha (Vish): yeah, yeah. Joy: to be connected to red lights. That's the because everything is with red lights. Yeah. So at Vishakha (Vish): Red light. Ye yeah. Joy: night my entire house is now it has LEDs. So it changes as soon as the sun goes down, everything is red. And when I say everything, I mean everything. Every single lamp is just r a shade of r from red to slightly orange so it's nice and warm. 'Cause I tend to program at night and I don't want it to hurt my like sleeping schedule. Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Thanks. Joy: And if you look from the outside, it it looks exactly like if it was the redistrict yesterday. Vishakha (Vish): So funny. But thank you Joy: Yeah. Vishakha (Vish): so much for sharing such sweet detail about your home, about your personal life. I love it. last question I have for you was essentially like we talked about the takeaway, we talked about the show that you recommend, and lastly, what do you do to decompress? Like, is is it podcasts or Joy: You know, I I f I think that's a very the the a common theme with with people that program and develop is that that when they bite onto a problem it's it's really hard to let go and it just stays in your head. And I found that at the beginning of my professional career it used to affect my my mood. So if if Vishakha (Vish): Mm-hmm. Joy: I was in a problem that I couldn't solve by two or three in the afternoon, it would really affect me emotionally. And I would just stay there in the computer to the point of physically I'm in discomfort because I I'm just Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Yeah. Joy: and it's worse because for some reason when you're debogging, like you you hunch and your face gets closer to the screen as as if that's gonna help you figure out where it's wrong. And Vishakha (Vish): That's yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Joy: I could I couldn't let go of it. And closing the laptop to maybe read or or look at an anime, I just couldn't because my my There was something in my like the cogs in my brain, there they were still grinding and grinding and grinding. I wouldn't let go. Sports. Vishakha (Vish): Yes. Yes. Joy: Sports is the only thing that lets me go. And like it it frees me. And usually I lift after a work day and it's it's equivalent. It's like if I have like if I have back water in my head the moment I do Vishakha (Vish): Mm-hmm. Joy: sports, it's like somebody puts in fresh water inside my head. It's like it's nice and clean and it's no longer like murky. It's like if you were cleaning out the fish tank of your fish, it's nice and transparent. Vishakha (Vish): And yes. Yeah. Joy: And it's like, and then I can come back and I can actually like like it's the only thing that helps me let go. Then usually a solution comes in for the next day, or I can at least relax and then I come back to the house and for fun reading. Definitely Fridays are anime watching after the gyms, like that's this is something Vishakha (Vish): Yeah, yeah. Yeah. Joy: I love to do. And podcast is something I usually listen to in the gym during my Vishakha (Vish): Mm. Joy: workout. That's why I like Vishakha (Vish): Okay. Joy: lifting 'cause it's a solo sport. It's a very Vishakha (Vish): Yes. Joy: y you don't need to particularly listen to music to be pumped up about it. sometimes I listen to music if I need that a little extra perk, but usually Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: I listen to podcasts, there are audiobooks and it it just it's it's the way I l can let go, for sure, a hundred percent. Vishakha (Vish): Thank you so much, Joy, for sharing. And I absolutely loved your different takes on communication, the different reframes that you provided. And I'm going to take them in my real life. But that's all I have for you. I hope you enjoyed this conversation. And I'll yeah, I'll see you in the next one. Bye. Yes. Yeah. Joy: I did, I did. I thought it was lovely. I guess. And I'll see you soon in the conference as well. So it'll be nice to meet up and catch up and have some coffee. And you'll get to see my stickers. So I'll definitely look. I was gonna Vishakha (Vish): I would. The laptop too. Joy: say Yeah, no my yeah, my laptop has strictly my Hero Academy stickers and on the front it has I can't I can't show it because obviously I've seen camera. There Vishakha (Vish): Yeah. Joy: are Japanese their stickers I took from my trip to Japan. And there's supposed to be luck for like muscles. It's a cat, it's like a muscular cat that's supposed to bring me luck for muscles. And I just stuck it in the in the laptop. Yeah. This was lovely. Thank you so much. I had a great time Vishakha (Vish): I love it, I love it, thank you. Joy: and I look very much forward to seeing you in New York. Vishakha (Vish): See you look. Joy: Bye-bye.