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Calcinatio and the Alchemy of Honest Suffering · This Jungian Life Podcast

• 0:02
  Speaker 1: Welcome to This Jungian Life. Three good friends and Jungian analysts,
• 0:06
  Speaker 1: Lisa Marciano, Deborah Stewart, and Joseph Lee, invite you to
• 0:10
  Speaker 1: join them for an intimate and honest conversation that brings
• 0:14
  Speaker 1: a psychological perspective to important issues of the day.
• 0:19
  Speaker 2: I'm Lisa Marciano, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Philadelphia.
• 0:23
  Speaker 3: I'm Joseph Lee, and I'm a Jungian analyst in Virginia Beach, Virginia.
• 0:28
  Speaker 4: I'm Deborah Stewart, a Jungian analyst in Cape Cod.
• 0:43
  Speaker 3: Jung was introduced to alchemy in the 1920s after he
• 0:47
  Speaker 3: was running into symbolic imagery in his patients' dreams like
• 0:52
  Speaker 3: mandalas and transformative images and mystical unions that bore a
• 0:59
  Speaker 3: very strange and uncanny similarity to the illustrations in a
• 1:05
  Speaker 3: Renaissance alchemical text. And the turning point came when his
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: friend Richard Wilhelm, who is a German sonologist and translator
• 1:14
  Speaker 3: of the I Ching, gave him a copy of the
• 1:17
  Speaker 3: 16th century Rosarium Philosophorum. And what he focused on were
• 1:24
  Speaker 3: these woodblock prints that provided a sequence of images of transformation.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: And Jung came to realize that the alchemists who believed
• 1:36
  Speaker 3: that they were transforming matter, were actually projecting their own
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: inner psychological processes onto their work, which was unconsciously mapping
• 1:47
  Speaker 3: an inner transformative process. So when Jung discovered alchemy, he
• 1:55
  Speaker 3: saw that it was a system that was much older
• 1:57
  Speaker 3: than modern psychology that mirrored the stages of individuation. And
• 2:03
  Speaker 3: these stages of are often summarized as the negredo, albedo, citronatus,
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: and rubedo, with various other transformative descriptions in between. And
• 2:17
  Speaker 3: this illuminated the archetypal nature of the unconscious, and this
• 2:20
  Speaker 3: became central to his later theories of the self, archetypes,
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: and the integration of opposites. And this reinforced his connection
• 2:30
  Speaker 3: of psychology with myth, mysticism, and this deep symbolic language
• 2:36
  Speaker 3: of the soul. And since there are many stages in alchemy,
• 2:41
  Speaker 3: we've decided to do a series of episodes breaking each
• 2:45
  Speaker 3: one down, explaining it, and also providing some very practical
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: examples of it. Today, we're going to talk about calcinatio. Aha,
• 2:58
  Speaker 3: the fire. The fire.
• 3:00
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, and it's often considered to be the first
• 3:06
  Speaker 2: operation in alchemy, although not always. Nothing is hard and
• 3:10
  Speaker 2: fast in alchemy.
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  Speaker 4: What happens with these various operations, as they're called, one
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  Speaker 4: of which is the fire, calcinatio, is it's an image
• 3:23
  Speaker 4: or a metaphor for what happens in the psyche. What
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  Speaker 4: gets ignited? What gets burned away? What eventually turns to ash.
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  Speaker 4: And often fire is equated with desire, with libido, with passion,
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  Speaker 4: and of course, you know, with all kinds of things
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  Speaker 4: that have to do with fire and instinct. And that
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  Speaker 4: is the matter that is in each of us, the
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  Speaker 4: prima materia, that is to be transformed into by these
• 4:00
  Speaker 4: various operations, one of the first of which is Calcinadio.
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  Speaker 4: So the matter gets tortured. We have to experience the
• 4:10
  Speaker 4: frustration and all that goes with these kinds of alchemical
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  Speaker 4: processes as metaphors for what we encounter.
• 4:21
  Speaker 2: In our lives. Yes, and of course, Deb, just building
• 4:25
  Speaker 2: on that, the idea of alchemy in essence was to
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  Speaker 2: find the philosopher's stone, which was a substance that could
• 4:31
  Speaker 2: turn lead into gold, among other things. And that whole
• 4:36
  Speaker 2: idea of lead into gold is a profound metaphor for
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  Speaker 2: kind of a psycho-spiritual transformation. To take something that's base
• 4:48
  Speaker 2: and doesn't have much value and the idea that you
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  Speaker 2: could turn it into the thing that is of everlasting value, right?
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  Speaker 2: Because gold is incorruptible. You know, that's quite a metaphor.
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  Speaker 2: And one of the things that so excited Jung about alchemy,
• 5:06
  Speaker 2: and he was very excited about alchemy, was these images,
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  Speaker 2: these metaphors show up in this completely different place in
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  Speaker 2: the culture The alchemists, most of them, Jung believed, had
• 5:20
  Speaker 2: no idea that that's what they were doing. Most of
• 5:23
  Speaker 2: them really thought they were working to change lead into gold. Some,
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  Speaker 2: Jung suspected, understood that they were engaged in a kind
• 5:32
  Speaker 2: of psycho-spiritual endeavor. But it sort of makes that point, right,
• 5:38
  Speaker 2: that without even realizing it, we're always working at these problems.
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  Speaker 2: We're always striving to toward individuation, even when we think
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  Speaker 2: we're doing something else.
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  Speaker 4: And these are operations that are metaphors for experiences. How
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  Speaker 4: do we understand our experiences of everything, in this case,
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  Speaker 4: that has to do with fire, with power, with instinct,
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  Speaker 4: with heat? How do we experience calcinatio? And all of
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  Speaker 4: these operations are processes and lived opportunities, if we can
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  Speaker 4: see them that way, for our own individuation process of
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  Speaker 4: transforming our own unconscious or base instinctual nature into consciousness
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  Speaker 4: and wholeness.
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  Speaker 2: So Calcinadio gets its name from limestone, from the heating
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  Speaker 2: of limestone. And the idea of calcination is to heat
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  Speaker 2: something up, heat up a solid until all the water's
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  Speaker 2: gone and just a fine, dry, often white powder remains.
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  Speaker 2: And doing this to limestone, turning limestone into what's called quicklime,
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  Speaker 2: is kind of the principal image, I think, in this
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  Speaker 2: operation of calcinatio.
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  Speaker 4: And what is it that is being calcined? In essence,
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  Speaker 4: it's affect, intense affect of how do we experience feeling
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  Speaker 4: without being identified with it? What do we do with
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  Speaker 4: intense affect? And that is what can get burned away,
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  Speaker 4: especially our sense of entitlement or rightness, desire, what we
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  Speaker 4: really crave. And the fire can be a way of
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  Speaker 4: refining us, of redeeming something and turning it to the
• 8:01
  Speaker 4: white ash of awareness.
• 8:03
  Speaker 3: Hello.
• 8:05
  Speaker 4: Hello.
• 8:06
  Speaker 2: Podcast listeners are invited to join me for a Vital
• 8:09
  Speaker 2: Spark book club event on Monday, August 4th at 6 p.m.
• 8:14
  Speaker 4: ET.
• 8:16
  Speaker 2: All you have to do is read some or all
• 8:18
  Speaker 2: of my book, The Vital Spark, reclaim your outlaw energies
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: and find your feminine fire, and then join me with
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: a glass of something cold to discuss it on Zoom.
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: This will be a relaxed, informal event with plenty of
• 8:32
  Speaker 2: time to ask me all of your questions. Find the
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: link in the show notes to buy The Vital Spark
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: and to register for the book club event. I hope
• 8:40
  Speaker 2: to see some of you there.
• 8:42
  Speaker 3: I found myself just wanting to pick up a thread, Lisa,
• 8:46
  Speaker 3: that you had put down, and then we can jump
• 8:48
  Speaker 3: back to that subjective. How important it is, this idea
• 8:52
  Speaker 3: of transformation, because so much of what we are vulnerable
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: to do is rejecting and cutting away. And this was
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: Freud's great discovery. is that people were, or his patients,
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: were in this intractable tension. He was focused mostly on
• 9:13
  Speaker 3: sexual repression. And they were in great conflict about their sexuality,
• 9:19
  Speaker 3: but rather than seek to transform the conflict, they were
• 9:23
  Speaker 3: cutting it off and pushing it into the unconscious and
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: becoming deeply symptomatic. Often the Christian theological perspective was about rejecting,
• 9:35
  Speaker 3: cutting away, suppressing, that in the general attitude of the
• 9:42
  Speaker 3: world at that time, in the 1920s, for instance, and
• 9:46
  Speaker 3: 30s and 40s, this idea that human beings could transform
• 9:52
  Speaker 3: was actually really quite new. And so Jung was really
• 9:57
  Speaker 3: offering a very different perspective where who we are at
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  Speaker 3: any given moment none of it is disposed of but
• 10:09
  Speaker 3: all of it could be held and worked in a
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  Speaker 3: particular way that it could exhibit more and more refined
• 10:18
  Speaker 3: potentials So the idea of transformation, which I think we
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  Speaker 3: take for granted now in many psychological systems and even
• 10:27
  Speaker 3: in modern parlance, that was a quite new idea for Jung.
• 10:33
  Speaker 3: So for him to find this ancient sequence, which was
• 10:37
  Speaker 3: highly symbolic, that seemed to match the images he was
• 10:42
  Speaker 3: seeing in people's dreams, really gave him this hope that
• 10:47
  Speaker 3: change on an ever heightening arc was possible and that
• 10:53
  Speaker 3: the Rosarium woodcuts were a map. Now coming back to
• 10:57
  Speaker 3: what Deb had said about this first stage of fire
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  Speaker 3: or submitting the substance to fire has much to do
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  Speaker 3: with intensity of feeling or affect. And one of the
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  Speaker 3: ways that this is seen in all of our lives
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  Speaker 3: and sometimes often in therapy is through frustration that whenever
• 11:22
  Speaker 3: we're moving in a direction psychologically or physically road rage
• 11:27
  Speaker 3: is a great example of this you're driving along you
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  Speaker 3: want to get to work the traffic stops you dead
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  Speaker 3: in your tracks and you feel this upwelling of heat
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  Speaker 3: and maybe rage and maybe you're even howling hopefully in
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  Speaker 3: the container of your car which is like an alchemical vase.
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  Speaker 3: And you're fussing and punching the windows. By the way,
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  Speaker 3: there are these alchemical images of dragons captured in glass vessels,
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  Speaker 3: roaring and belching fire, which is really what you look
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  Speaker 3: like when you're road raging, by the way. You become
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  Speaker 3: a little dragon. And interestingly enough, if you don't jump
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  Speaker 3: out of the car and start menacing the other people,
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  Speaker 3: that are in the traffic jam, but you actually sit
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  Speaker 3: in your car and you just let yourself catch on fire,
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  Speaker 3: there's a kind of arc that happens. And often, people
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  Speaker 3: move from belching fire in the vase to something else,
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  Speaker 3: which might be resignation. Or suddenly you find yourself thinking
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  Speaker 3: of a solution, like, next time, I'm not going to
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  Speaker 3: take the Long Island Expressway. I'm going to take the
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  Speaker 3: train because this is a bad choice. It's not working
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  Speaker 3: for me. So the frustration can lead to innovation. It
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  Speaker 3: can lead to self-examination. God forbid your spouse is in
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  Speaker 3: the passenger seat plastered against the door, frightened of the
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  Speaker 3: dragon you have become. And then we turn and realize
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  Speaker 3: the effect we're having on our passenger. And then we
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  Speaker 3: have this determination to do something about all this fire
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  Speaker 3: that comes up when we are frustrated. That's an example
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  Speaker 3: maybe we can all relate to. But the truth is,
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  Speaker 3: life is a series of frustrations inasmuch as a directional
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  Speaker 3: energy rises up inside of us and very often the
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  Speaker 3: way forward to the satisfaction of your interests is fraught
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  Speaker 3: with obstacles of one kind or another.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah.
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  Speaker 2: And the thing about calcinatio is, you know, Deb, you
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  Speaker 2: said that the feelings are the thing that needs to
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  Speaker 2: be calcined, and that's true. But it's also the intense
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  Speaker 2: feelings that provide the heat, that provide the fire, So
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  Speaker 2: there's a way that they kind of consume themselves, these feelings.
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  Speaker 2: They transform themselves in a manner that you were just describing, Joseph. Yeah.
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  Speaker 4: And if it can be contained in the alchemical vase
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  Speaker 4: of the car, then something else has happened. The ego
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  Speaker 4: has been worked on of, I need to get to work.
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  Speaker 4: I can't stand this ridiculous traffic jam. all that material
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  Speaker 4: that we're all familiar with that kind of thing. But
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  Speaker 4: that's my ego. I want it to be different. I
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  Speaker 4: want a good, smooth ride. I just want to get there. Ah,
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  Speaker 4: what do we do when the fire comes up? And
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  Speaker 4: we have to deal with that feeling. And if we
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  Speaker 4: can get to resignation or acceptance or just simply calm down,
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  Speaker 4: it is a real victory. We have grown. And I know,
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  Speaker 4: you know, parents do this all the time with children
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  Speaker 4: of the child that is so upset and so angry
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  Speaker 4: because of all the things that kids experience, frustration of,
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  Speaker 4: you know, I can't tie my shoe.
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  Speaker 3: It won't tie. I can't make it happen. I lived
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  Speaker 3: that moment, by the way.
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  Speaker 2: I know you did.
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  Speaker 4: I was thinking of you because you told that story once.
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  Speaker 2: On the podcast.
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  Speaker 4: But You know that somebody is reassuring or calming or
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  Speaker 4: containing to say, yes, you can. Just sit down for
• 15:47
  Speaker 4: a sec. Just breathe for a minute. You know how
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  Speaker 4: to do it. That is a way of containing and
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  Speaker 4: transforming the affect of frustration into something else, depending on
• 16:03
  Speaker 4: the age and stage and situation.
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  Speaker 3: So what's transformed? in the end, is an attitude. So
• 16:12
  Speaker 3: in the story that you were alluding to, I remember
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  Speaker 3: it being maybe three or two years old. I'm standing
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  Speaker 3: at the top of the stairs barefoot, and I'm like
• 16:22
  Speaker 3: barking for my mother. Like literally, I'm like, ah, I'm
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  Speaker 3: gonna pull out my shoes!
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  Speaker 4: Intense affect.
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  Speaker 2: Intense affect.
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  Speaker 3: And so my mother comes and she's steps down one
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  Speaker 3: step and is, you know, kind of has her, my
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  Speaker 3: shoes in her hands. And then she, I remember this
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  Speaker 3: so vivid, she pauses, she looks at me and she
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  Speaker 3: kind of squints her eyes a little bit and she says,
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  Speaker 3: you can put them on yourself. And I had a tirade,
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: howling and screaming and, and then she handled this really well.
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  Speaker 3: She just kind of sat there. And then she walked away.
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  Speaker 3: And then I calmed down and put the shoes on. Now,
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  Speaker 3: the real transformation was the attitude from I can't put
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: my shoes on to I can put my shoes on.
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  Speaker 3: So I'm not, I mean, I can't remember my theory
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  Speaker 3: of personality at two. I'm sure it was particularly sophisticated.
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  Speaker 4: Oh, I'm sure it was.
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  Speaker 3: I'm sure it was. But I actually calmed down. I
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: kind of knew I could put them on. I did
• 17:36
  Speaker 3: put them on. And also, I never asked anyone to
• 17:40
  Speaker 3: ever tie my shoes again. So it really was a
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  Speaker 3: permanent change of attitude. And my mother in that moment
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  Speaker 3: was the vase. I became the little dragon. She appropriately just,
• 17:56
  Speaker 3: and somewhat benevolently, just held the moment. And then she
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  Speaker 3: stepped away and my attitude shifted, which of course was
• 18:07
  Speaker 3: greatly beneficial to me because then I could put my
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  Speaker 3: shoes on and go outside without like a whole rigmarole.
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  Speaker 2: Right.
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  Speaker 3: So as you were saying, Deb, kids go through these
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  Speaker 3: all the time. Parents provide the container instinctively. But the storminess,
• 18:24
  Speaker 3: this is where Jung came in. The storm in that moment,
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  Speaker 3: which my mother didn't interfere with. She didn't try to
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  Speaker 3: calm me. She didn't punish me. She just watched while
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  Speaker 3: I stormed, and in the storm, discovered I didn't need
• 18:42
  Speaker 3: her to put my shoes on. Fast forward, we're in
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  Speaker 3: the car, storm, storm, storm, and then any number of
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  Speaker 3: new attitudes might emerge, like, you know, I'm going to
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  Speaker 3: take a different route, or I have got to get
• 18:58
  Speaker 3: on the road an hour earlier or I'm being an
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  Speaker 3: asshole and I need to calm down, which I have
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  Speaker 3: told myself sometimes. But the goal of the frustration is
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  Speaker 3: to realize that however, whatever attitude I'm using in that
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  Speaker 3: moment doesn't seem, it's kind of hurting me. It's not
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  Speaker 3: working very well.
• 19:20
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. So just wanting to kind of link this
• 19:24
  Speaker 2: back to alchemy, I thought I would read, because the
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  Speaker 2: thing about alchemical texts, if anyone has ever tried to
• 19:33
  Speaker 2: read one, is they're very, very difficult to understand. And Jung,
• 19:39
  Speaker 2: by the way, had a very impressive library, apparently, of
• 19:43
  Speaker 2: alchemical texts from the Middle Ages. So let's just start
• 19:47
  Speaker 2: with an image of Calcinadio. as would be described. So
• 19:52
  Speaker 2: this is like an alchemical cookbook, all right? So it's
• 19:55
  Speaker 2: telling you what to do. And it's from The Twelve
• 19:59
  Speaker 2: Keys of Basil Valentine. And here's the recipe. Take a
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  Speaker 2: fierce gray wolf which is found in the valleys and
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  Speaker 2: mountains of the world, where he roams almost savage with hunger,
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  Speaker 2: cast to him the body of the king, and when
• 20:16
  Speaker 2: he has devoured it, burn him entirely to ashes in
• 20:20
  Speaker 2: a great fire. By this process, the king will be liberated,
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  Speaker 2: and when it has been performed thrice, the lion has
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  Speaker 2: overcome the wolf and will find nothing more to devour
• 20:31
  Speaker 2: in him. Thus, our body has been rendered fit for
• 20:35
  Speaker 2: the first stage of our work. So this is the
• 20:37
  Speaker 2: preparation for the work. Now, what the heck does that mean?
• 20:41
  Speaker 2: So this is the kind of language, and there's an
• 20:44
  Speaker 2: accompanying illustration, by the way, of a fire and a
• 20:48
  Speaker 2: wolf eating someone. And there's incredible, like these beautiful woodcuts
• 20:57
  Speaker 2: of these bizarre images. But what on earth is that about?
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  Speaker 2: So if you think about this passage chemically, and I'm
• 21:06
  Speaker 2: I'm relying here on Edward Edinger and his book, The
• 21:11
  Speaker 2: Anatomy of the Psyche. So the wolf is assumed to
• 21:16
  Speaker 2: be antimony, which was sometimes called the wolf of metals.
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  Speaker 2: And it was used to purify molten gold because I
• 21:23
  Speaker 2: guess the impurities would kind of like be drawn out
• 21:26
  Speaker 2: or would stick to the antimony in a chemical process
• 21:32
  Speaker 2: that I cannot explain to you. And so the antimony
• 21:38
  Speaker 2: was sometimes called the balneum regis, the bath of the king.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: So from a strictly chemical reading of the text, this
• 21:48
  Speaker 2: is instruction on how to purify gold, at least as
• 21:51
  Speaker 2: I understand it. But then what does it mean psychologically?
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  Speaker 4: Well, one of the reasons that the alchemists phrase things
• 22:03
  Speaker 4: in such a totally incomprehensible way to our rational mind
• 22:08
  Speaker 4: is that they were subversives and they were not really
• 22:14
  Speaker 4: part of and were challenging a lot of the tenets
• 22:18
  Speaker 4: of Christianity. So they developed code that only other initiates,
• 22:25
  Speaker 4: only other alchemists could understand. So they were kind of
• 22:29
  Speaker 4: covering their tracks in that way. And the wolf represented
• 22:35
  Speaker 4: just unbounded, raw, instinctual voraciousness of the devouring attitude of
• 22:43
  Speaker 4: the wolf. And the king often represents sort of the
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: dominant ego ruling attitude. And so here is instinct devouring
• 22:56
  Speaker 4: the ruling attitude.
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  Speaker 3: And so what that means in, let's say, an analytic...
• 23:01
  Speaker 3: process is that it's not uncommon for somebody who is
• 23:07
  Speaker 3: very cut off from their instincts to have to rediscover
• 23:12
  Speaker 3: them and when they are reclaimed and re-experienced they can
• 23:17
  Speaker 3: be extremely intense they can temporarily dominate the personality but
• 23:23
  Speaker 3: because the instinctive layer of the psyche is the original
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: layer i mean The first breath you take, in utero
• 23:32
  Speaker 3: for that matter, you are ruled by these ancient instincts.
• 23:39
  Speaker 3: So if we have fallen far away from our natural personality,
• 23:44
  Speaker 3: sometimes the transformative process involves having our instincts roar upward,
• 23:51
  Speaker 3: gobble us up for a little while, and we're returned
• 23:54
  Speaker 3: to kind of squalling instinctive creatures, which gives us an
• 24:01
  Speaker 3: enormous amount of energy. And then we have the much
• 24:07
  Speaker 3: longer task of reweaving a personality that includes more of
• 24:13
  Speaker 3: our instinctive clarity. So the wolf sometimes will eat the
• 24:18
  Speaker 3: king in an alchemical metaphor. Sometimes the wolf will eat
• 24:22
  Speaker 3: the sun, which is another metaphor for consciousness, for being
• 24:27
  Speaker 3: wide awake as we are in the daytime.
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  Speaker 4: Yeah, I'm really back on how important it is of
• 24:36
  Speaker 4: that first resurgence of some kind of affect that has
• 24:44
  Speaker 4: had to be shut down, closeted away. And what a
• 24:49
  Speaker 4: surprise it can be when it comes roaring out with
• 24:54
  Speaker 4: Such heat and such voraciousness. And people will say, I
• 24:59
  Speaker 4: don't know. I wasn't myself. I don't know what came
• 25:02
  Speaker 4: over me. Your example of road rage is a great
• 25:05
  Speaker 4: example of that all of a sudden you're stuck in
• 25:09
  Speaker 4: traffic and this huge surge of feeling comes up out
• 25:13
  Speaker 4: of nowhere, pounding the steering wheel. I personally can remember
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: a time when, of course, I was much, much younger.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: But I was an adult, and I was late to
• 25:27
  Speaker 4: pick up my children and stuck in traffic. And I
• 25:32
  Speaker 4: remember screaming and yelling and hitting the steering wheel. And
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: then afterwards going, what was I doing? You know, that, yes,
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: it was frustrating, and I didn't want to be late.
• 25:46
  Speaker 4: But that surge of wolf-like excitement wild, untamed feeling, I
• 25:54
  Speaker 4: think is an experience that most everybody has had.
• 25:57
  Speaker 3: We hope so. Well, because it is central. And what
• 26:04
  Speaker 3: we see in cultures that disallow a reasonable palette of
• 26:09
  Speaker 3: emotional expression is that people become unwell. And what Freud
• 26:15
  Speaker 3: was coming across is that people would become unwell to
• 26:19
  Speaker 3: the degree that their bodies would not function correctly because
• 26:22
  Speaker 3: of the incredible stress of this repressed and cut off
• 26:28
  Speaker 3: instinctive layer. Freud was the first psychologist of instinct. Adler
• 26:34
  Speaker 3: was the first ego psychologist. It was dealing with, you know,
• 26:38
  Speaker 3: basically cognitive psychology is what he created. And Jung was
• 26:43
  Speaker 3: the first psychologist of the transcendent. And of course, they cross-pollinated.
• 26:48
  Speaker 3: each other all the time.
• 26:49
  Speaker 1: Yeah.
• 26:50
  Speaker 2: And I want to go back to this idea about
• 26:52
  Speaker 2: frustration because, I mean, I think we've sort of been
• 26:54
  Speaker 2: saying this again and again, but it's really important. It's
• 26:57
  Speaker 2: that you have the desirousness, kind of the wolf. And
• 27:01
  Speaker 2: then for whatever reason, you're frustrated, you're in traffic, or
• 27:05
  Speaker 2: you have never tied your shoes before. And it's the
• 27:09
  Speaker 2: frustration that is the change element. It's the frustration that
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: in the alchemical metaphor, is the transforming fire. You know,
• 27:21
  Speaker 2: fire as a metaphor is a very profound one. Jung
• 27:25
  Speaker 2: spent a lot of time in Volume 5 talking about
• 27:28
  Speaker 2: fire symbolism. And fire symbolism comes up all over the
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: place in religious symbols and in myths and fairy tales,
• 27:39
  Speaker 2: of course. I mean, we could just come up with
• 27:41
  Speaker 2: a dozen off the top of our heads, I'm sure, including,
• 27:44
  Speaker 2: you know, kind of Prometheus stealing fire. But fire is
• 27:50
  Speaker 2: interesting because when you burn something, it goes through a
• 27:53
  Speaker 2: complete chemical transformation. If you add water to salt, that's
• 28:02
  Speaker 2: a mixture, and there's a chemical term for that that
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: I cannot remember from 11th grade chemistry. Solution? Is that it? Anyway.
• 28:10
  Speaker 3: I think you're right. Yes, solution, soluteo.
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: But you can separate them, right? You can evaporate the
• 28:17
  Speaker 2: water and what is left is salt. They haven't been
• 28:20
  Speaker 2: fundamentally changed. It's a chemical reaction that will change a substance.
• 28:27
  Speaker 2: And fire is an example of that. If you burn something,
• 28:31
  Speaker 2: it ain't never gone back to the way it was before.
• 28:34
  Speaker 2: So it's psychologically a very profound image. And it goes
• 28:40
  Speaker 2: along with this idea of transformation and change. It goes
• 28:44
  Speaker 2: along with this idea of, you know, kind of burning desire.
• 28:48
  Speaker 2: It is used in sacrifices. You make something sacred by
• 28:55
  Speaker 2: sacrificing it, often by burning it. And then the smoke
• 28:59
  Speaker 2: goes up to the realm of the gods. So the
• 29:03
  Speaker 2: fire of frustrated desire... is a powerful psychological change agent.
• 29:11
  Speaker 3: In service to that, I want to circle back to
• 29:14
  Speaker 3: the idea of the burning of lime, the burning of
• 29:18
  Speaker 3: limestone particularly. So the first alchemists, we think, were really
• 29:24
  Speaker 3: the progenitors to chemistry. These were people that just had
• 29:30
  Speaker 3: a natural fascination with matter and the natural world. And
• 29:37
  Speaker 3: as Deb was saying, the later alchemists developed a philosophical alchemy.
• 29:44
  Speaker 3: So there were the philosophical alchemists and then there were
• 29:48
  Speaker 3: the concrete alchemists. But the first ones were the physical experimenters.
• 29:55
  Speaker 3: And also, because there was not a scientific language of chemistry.
• 30:00
  Speaker 3: It simply didn't exist, which meant that the alchemists needed
• 30:05
  Speaker 3: to either borrow common terms from their culture or create
• 30:10
  Speaker 3: a kind of poetic language to try to infer or
• 30:15
  Speaker 3: capture what it was that they were observing. So if
• 30:21
  Speaker 3: we look at Calcinatio, and the reason why this is
• 30:25
  Speaker 3: important that it's relative to limestone and lime, is that
• 30:29
  Speaker 3: this is something that humans discovered thousands and thousands and
• 30:34
  Speaker 3: thousands of years ago, and it became an important tool
• 30:38
  Speaker 3: for a civilization. So when you burn, when you grind
• 30:43
  Speaker 3: and burn limestone, what happens is it drives off the
• 30:49
  Speaker 3: carbon dioxide. And then it leaves, it goes from calcium
• 30:54
  Speaker 3: carbonate to calcium oxide, which is a kind of powder
• 31:00
  Speaker 3: or quicklime. Now this quicklime becomes a very important substance
• 31:08
  Speaker 3: that then is used in all of these different ways,
• 31:12
  Speaker 3: which I think lends something to the metaphor that lime
• 31:15
  Speaker 3: is mixed in with sand or powdered sand and water.
• 31:25
  Speaker 3: And then as the water is added, it reabsorbs the
• 31:29
  Speaker 3: carbon dioxide, and that's what you use to coat the
• 31:33
  Speaker 3: inside of your house. It's called drywall. It's called plaster.
• 31:37
  Speaker 3: Mixed with very coarse sand, it becomes mortar. And the
• 31:43
  Speaker 3: fascinating thing about cement, for instance, which the Romans used
• 31:47
  Speaker 3: to great effect, is that the integration, the reintegration of
• 31:53
  Speaker 3: the carbon dioxide and the changes in the cement, it
• 31:58
  Speaker 3: continues to harden for thousands of years. It actually remains active.
• 32:05
  Speaker 3: And this is one of the reasons that there are
• 32:07
  Speaker 3: still Roman roads that are still used in certain parts
• 32:13
  Speaker 3: of Europe because this remarkable capacity to take what was
• 32:20
  Speaker 3: reduced to ash and then apply it, which is so fascinating.
• 32:27
  Speaker 3: So it becomes mortar or plaster or cement. You put
• 32:32
  Speaker 3: it onto acidic soil and it raises the pH level,
• 32:37
  Speaker 3: which also releases nutrients and promotes microbial activity, which plants
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: need to be able to access what's in the soil.
• 32:45
  Speaker 3: Incredible metaphor. It also has a disinfecting property. Quicklime is
• 32:52
  Speaker 3: sometimes added into your water treatment plants because it will
• 32:56
  Speaker 3: neutralize sewage and purifies drinking water, which goes to this
• 33:03
  Speaker 3: idea of what do we do with the negrito, with
• 33:06
  Speaker 3: the shadow? You can mix it with quicklime. And it
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: also is added into molten metals to remove impurities. So Iron,
• 33:18
  Speaker 3: for instance, would be ground up and quicklime would be added,
• 33:23
  Speaker 3: and it would remove phosphorus and sulfur and silica, and
• 33:28
  Speaker 3: then it would leave slag. And that was incredibly important
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: because without that, then iron wouldn't be hard enough. And
• 33:36
  Speaker 3: the iron age we talk about in history wouldn't be possible.
• 33:40
  Speaker 3: If somebody hadn't figured out, if you burn limestone, this crazy...
• 33:47
  Speaker 3: Ash is there. And then somebody thought, well, I don't know,
• 33:49
  Speaker 3: let's start adding that ash to a bunch of different
• 33:52
  Speaker 3: things and see what happens. It's added to copper. It's
• 33:55
  Speaker 3: added to lead. Again, over and again, it removes sulfur.
• 34:01
  Speaker 3: And sulfur is also associated with calcinedio often because the
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: calcinedio process involves the removal of sulfur. And sulfur burns very, very,
• 34:15
  Speaker 3: very hot. It also preserves food in certain cultures. Lime
• 34:22
  Speaker 3: was essential. You would starve if you couldn't preserve food
• 34:27
  Speaker 3: with lime. So lime has all of these really interesting properties,
• 34:36
  Speaker 3: which was possibly known by the philosophical alchemists who could
• 34:42
  Speaker 3: think metaphorically in his depusaying. created a kind of psychological
• 34:48
  Speaker 3: and religious understanding of the soul, which, as you were saying,
• 34:53
  Speaker 3: was heretical. So amongst their own initiates, they developed a
• 34:59
  Speaker 3: secret language, which Jung tried very hard to penetrate.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: That's a wonderful example of how much truth there was
• 35:14
  Speaker 4: for the old alchemists and the fascination that these physical
• 35:20
  Speaker 4: operations had. Imagine that you could do this and you
• 35:25
  Speaker 4: add it to this or you grind it up or
• 35:28
  Speaker 4: it turns into that, turns into plaster, turns into concrete,
• 35:33
  Speaker 4: it turns, it fertilizes soil, it does all these things.
• 35:38
  Speaker 4: And without the sort of science and equations that I
• 35:43
  Speaker 4: associate with chemistry, it must have had a really incredible,
• 35:49
  Speaker 4: numinous quality to it of look what matter transformed can do.
• 36:00
  Speaker 4: And then, as you were saying, of the physical operations
• 36:05
  Speaker 4: of alchemists, also became a hugely intricate, incredible symbolic language.
• 36:12
  Speaker 4: Images in alchemy are mysterious and weird. Some of them
• 36:17
  Speaker 4: are astonishingly detailed, magnificent paintings with chariots and dragons and
• 36:24
  Speaker 4: flowers and decorations, and it goes on and on. Take
• 36:27
  Speaker 4: one look at this, and you can spend, as we have,
• 36:31
  Speaker 4: an entire afternoon at a seminar on one image. because
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: there is so much symbolism in it. But I want
• 36:41
  Speaker 4: to take us to all the different kinds of fire
• 36:46
  Speaker 4: or fire symbols and uses of that as a symbol
• 36:52
  Speaker 4: that there are. We've got the wolf as one of them,
• 36:57
  Speaker 4: but I'm thinking about all kinds of religious imagery. Lisa,
• 37:03
  Speaker 4: you've mentioned the sacrificial fire. There is divine wrath. Zeus
• 37:12
  Speaker 4: famously could hurl a thunderbolt at somebody. There's fire as punishment.
• 37:20
  Speaker 4: One of the early transgressors in Greek myth was named Ixion,
• 37:27
  Speaker 4: who had made the big mistake. He tried to seduce Hera,
• 37:32
  Speaker 4: Zeus's wife. as if strapped him to a wheel of
• 37:36
  Speaker 4: fire where he circles forever, ever after. Of course, there's hellfire,
• 37:43
  Speaker 4: you know, we all know about that. And we have
• 37:47
  Speaker 4: all kinds of phrases around fire, like baptism, baptism by fire.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: So I'm just curious about opening up all these images
• 37:58
  Speaker 4: that we take for granted, I think, sometimes, but how
• 38:01
  Speaker 4: important this operation, metaphorically speaking, of Calcinadio is. We know it.
• 38:10
  Speaker 2: One of the big themes, I think, about this chemical operation,
• 38:15
  Speaker 2: both chemically and also symbolically, is purification, right? Fire is
• 38:21
  Speaker 2: a purifier. There's the idea of the refiner's fire. Is
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: that a metallurgical concept? I think it might be. but
• 38:32
  Speaker 2: it's where you drive off the impurities and you get
• 38:36
  Speaker 2: down to the basics. So purification is a key theme
• 38:42
  Speaker 2: in this. And, you know, Edinger says something in this
• 38:46
  Speaker 2: chapter that really, really struck me, and I think it's
• 38:51
  Speaker 2: kind of central, is that when we first have an
• 38:55
  Speaker 2: upwelling of a kind of instinctual desire, it's contaminated. And
• 39:02
  Speaker 2: the first time it appears, it will be kind of
• 39:06
  Speaker 2: conflated with like an ego power drive, for example. But
• 39:11
  Speaker 2: if we assume that that desire is something of value,
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: rather than just repressing it and saying, well, I shouldn't
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: want that, if we let alchemy into our life, And
• 39:25
  Speaker 2: we apply a calcinatio, which maybe comes from the frustration
• 39:30
  Speaker 2: of that desire, then we can allow it to become
• 39:36
  Speaker 2: purified so that it then manifests in its higher form,
• 39:43
  Speaker 2: which would be an expression of the self. So to me,
• 39:48
  Speaker 2: that is That is a huge insight because I do
• 39:52
  Speaker 2: find that many people in treatment come in and feel
• 39:56
  Speaker 2: shy about what they want. They feel maybe a little
• 39:59
  Speaker 2: bit ashamed about wanting something. And it is often the case, again,
• 40:05
  Speaker 2: that when that first impulse arises, it is a little awkward.
• 40:09
  Speaker 2: It does feel like it's connected, for example, with a
• 40:12
  Speaker 2: power drive. But if you can stay with it and
• 40:16
  Speaker 2: work with it, then it transforms. So I want to
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: see if I can come up with an example. You know,
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: if I have someone come in, let's say, and they
• 40:27
  Speaker 2: have an aspiration to, oh, I don't know, become a
• 40:31
  Speaker 2: Jungian analyst, but they feel very shy about that. You know,
• 40:36
  Speaker 2: they feel shy admitting it to me. They don't have
• 40:40
  Speaker 2: a background in mental health. They It sort of feels
• 40:44
  Speaker 2: like this kind of wild thing to say. They're worried
• 40:47
  Speaker 2: I'm going to laugh at them. But maybe they have
• 40:50
  Speaker 2: the courage to say, well, part of why I'm here
• 40:52
  Speaker 2: is I think I want to do this. And yes,
• 40:57
  Speaker 2: initially it has a kind of inflation to it, right? Like,
• 41:01
  Speaker 2: you know, you think you can do this and yet
• 41:02
  Speaker 2: you've never been tested in any way and you maybe
• 41:05
  Speaker 2: have a kind of grandiose vision about how this is
• 41:08
  Speaker 2: going to go or how easy it's going to be
• 41:10
  Speaker 2: or whatever. But if you sit with it, which means sometimes,
• 41:16
  Speaker 2: by the way, tolerating the frustration when you don't get
• 41:20
  Speaker 2: into training the first time or it takes much longer
• 41:24
  Speaker 2: than you thought or it's more expensive, it becomes something different.
• 41:30
  Speaker 2: It becomes purified of those ego power drives of that inflation.
• 41:36
  Speaker 2: It becomes something you can really rely on. This also
• 41:41
  Speaker 2: makes the point, Deb, you were talking about kinds of fire.
• 41:44
  Speaker 2: There is a kind of terrestrial fire that burns us
• 41:50
  Speaker 2: up that might be sexual desire or that kind of thing.
• 41:54
  Speaker 2: But then there's also the fire of the Holy Spirit
• 41:58
  Speaker 2: or ethereal fire. And so can we allow one to
• 42:03
  Speaker 2: transform into the other? And there's just a really amazing
• 42:07
  Speaker 2: quote from Jung. When you indulge in desirousness, whether your
• 42:12
  Speaker 2: desire turns toward heaven or hell, you give the animus
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: or anima an object. Then it comes out into the
• 42:19
  Speaker 2: world instead of staying inside in its place. But if
• 42:23
  Speaker 2: you can say, yes, I desire it and I shall
• 42:26
  Speaker 2: try to get it, but I do not have to
• 42:29
  Speaker 2: get it. If I decide to renounce it, I can
• 42:32
  Speaker 2: renounce it. Then there is no chance for the animus
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: or anima. Otherwise, you are governed. by your desires. You
• 42:39
  Speaker 2: are possessed. But if you have put your animus or
• 42:43
  Speaker 2: anima into a bottle, you are free of possession, even
• 42:46
  Speaker 2: though you may be having a bad time inside. Because
• 42:49
  Speaker 2: when your devil has a bad time, you have a
• 42:51
  Speaker 2: bad time. Of course, he will rumble around in your entrails,
• 42:55
  Speaker 2: but after a while, you will see that it was
• 42:58
  Speaker 2: right to bottle him up. You will slowly become quiet
• 43:02
  Speaker 2: and change. Then you will discern that that there is
• 43:06
  Speaker 2: a stone growing in the bottle. Insofar as self-control or
• 43:11
  Speaker 2: non-indulgence has become a habit, it is a stone. And
• 43:15
  Speaker 2: when that habit becomes a fait accompli, the stone will
• 43:20
  Speaker 2: be a diamond.
• 43:22
  Speaker 3: So I'll add to what you just said from another commentary,
• 43:27
  Speaker 3: although I'm not going to quote it, I'll have to
• 43:29
  Speaker 3: paraphrase it. And where Jung gives us yet a little
• 43:34
  Speaker 3: insight additional way to imagine that exact same process. I
• 43:40
  Speaker 3: think it's the ninth Rosarium image where the king and
• 43:46
  Speaker 3: the queen, their bodies have begun to merge. They're in
• 43:51
  Speaker 3: the bottom of the fountain in the alchemical vessel. The
• 43:56
  Speaker 3: soul is hovering above, ready to reanimate the substance. In
• 44:03
  Speaker 3: front of this bed or sarcophagus, there is one black
• 44:09
  Speaker 3: bird that's popping its head out of the soil. There's
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: another black bird standing on the ground, looking down at
• 44:20
  Speaker 3: the bird whose head is popping up. And there's a
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: commentary that Jung offers about that. And he says that
• 44:28
  Speaker 3: if we take our desires, as he was saying, Lisa,
• 44:31
  Speaker 3: and we contain them containing them is not the same
• 44:36
  Speaker 3: as repressing them or attacking them or maligning them. What
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: it means is that we allow ourselves to have a
• 44:46
  Speaker 3: full experience of the desire and we elect not to
• 44:52
  Speaker 3: act upon it externally, but we allow it to generate
• 44:58
  Speaker 3: the fantasies that it normally does. watch the fantasies for
• 45:07
  Speaker 3: a while and frustrate their outer expression, the fantasies begin
• 45:14
  Speaker 3: to transform and depersonalize. And what he says is very interesting,
• 45:23
  Speaker 3: is we begin to feel that the desire has its
• 45:28
  Speaker 3: own independent life. that the desire is a separate autonomous
• 45:37
  Speaker 3: image inside of us, and once it is purified of
• 45:42
  Speaker 3: our personal associations, it begins to reveal its own fantasy.
• 45:52
  Speaker 3: So I want to rest into that, that your desires
• 46:00
  Speaker 3: actually have their own independent psychological processes and their own fantasies,
• 46:09
  Speaker 3: regardless of your preferences. And when the desire is united
• 46:17
  Speaker 3: with its fantasy, not yours, it creates an ouroboros. It
• 46:23
  Speaker 3: creates a circle where the flighted bird takes the, the, um,
• 46:29
  Speaker 3: unflighted bird holds the tail of the flighted bird, and
• 46:35
  Speaker 3: the flighted bird reaches down and holds the tail of
• 46:38
  Speaker 3: the unflighted bird. And then the desire and its own
• 46:42
  Speaker 3: fantasy begin to circulate, generating vitality in the psyche that
• 46:47
  Speaker 3: could then be applied to any number of different things.
• 46:52
  Speaker 3: So one practical way that we do this, and Deb,
• 46:57
  Speaker 3: I'll turn this over to you, as you've said this
• 47:00
  Speaker 3: many times, is a client comes in and begins to complain.
• 47:04
  Speaker 3: and the thing that they're complaining about is never the thing.
• 47:09
  Speaker 4: It's such a mantra for me. And I think I
• 47:12
  Speaker 4: got the phrase from Jim Hollis, who is a Jungian
• 47:16
  Speaker 4: analyst and one of our teachers and a noted author,
• 47:20
  Speaker 4: and I can recommend his books to everybody. But what
• 47:25
  Speaker 4: he said very early in training, he said, what it's
• 47:28
  Speaker 4: about is not what it's about. And what you see,
• 47:33
  Speaker 4: is compensation for what you don't see. And I was
• 47:38
  Speaker 4: totally gobstruck by that. And so there it is. The
• 47:44
  Speaker 4: thing is my terrible boss, the city that I live
• 47:51
  Speaker 4: in that I just hate. I mean, the list goes
• 47:54
  Speaker 4: on and on. And yes, that is what we call
• 47:59
  Speaker 4: the presenting problem. That's very real. You know, your boss
• 48:03
  Speaker 4: is difficult. You would rather live in the country than
• 48:07
  Speaker 4: in the city, et cetera, et cetera. But what else
• 48:11
  Speaker 4: is it about? And then how do we take that
• 48:15
  Speaker 4: and hold it within? And we talk about it. We
• 48:19
  Speaker 4: walk around it. We kind of kick the tires. What
• 48:24
  Speaker 4: is it in you? that is being lit up in
• 48:29
  Speaker 4: the calcining fire about your boss or about any one
• 48:36
  Speaker 4: of a number of life issues because that's the part
• 48:42
  Speaker 4: we can work with. Oh, we're not going to change
• 48:46
  Speaker 4: your boss. What does it stand for? What would it
• 48:51
  Speaker 4: mean to you to leave the city and live in
• 48:54
  Speaker 4: the country? We're dealing in the symbolic realm and that
• 49:01
  Speaker 4: part that you were talking about, Joseph, where the it
• 49:05
  Speaker 4: has its own life. The unconscious has independence. It has
• 49:11
  Speaker 4: its own direction. It has its own energy. So when
• 49:16
  Speaker 4: it appears in the symbol of one's boss or a
• 49:21
  Speaker 4: preferred location to live in, we need to really get
• 49:26
  Speaker 4: curious and be like the alchemists with a system where
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: we can phrase things and look at things symbolically. Like,
• 49:38
  Speaker 4: what if this is my inner wolf? What's it trying,
• 49:42
  Speaker 4: what does it want? What's it trying to tell me?
• 49:46
  Speaker 3: So that's that same principle right in the consulting room
• 49:49
  Speaker 3: and right in your conversation with friends because when somebody
• 49:53
  Speaker 3: comes in and says, I hate my boss, I hate
• 49:54
  Speaker 3: my boss, and we listen to it for five, 10,
• 49:57
  Speaker 3: 30 sessions, at some point we say, wait a minute,
• 50:03
  Speaker 3: let's look at you. And the first thing you'll see
• 50:06
  Speaker 3: is the client gets really frustrated. He doesn't like it. Like,
• 50:10
  Speaker 3: they want to bitch about their boss. They want to
• 50:13
  Speaker 3: lift the lid off the pot and let the steam out.
• 50:17
  Speaker 3: And as soon as we put the lid on it
• 50:18
  Speaker 3: and say, whoop, whoop, whoop, whoop, yes, it's about your boss,
• 50:21
  Speaker 3: but let's look at you, you can almost immediately see that,
• 50:26
  Speaker 3: you know, building up inside of them.
• 50:30
  Speaker 4: You know, I still have, that comes up in me
• 50:33
  Speaker 4: all the time, that something happens and it's out there.
• 50:39
  Speaker 4: and I would like somebody to please let me let
• 50:43
  Speaker 4: off some steam, vent to a certain extent about this
• 50:49
  Speaker 4: or that particular frustration that was caused by someone or
• 50:54
  Speaker 4: something in the external world.
• 50:56
  Speaker 2: It's not in me.
• 50:58
  Speaker 4: I know that.
• 50:58
  Speaker 2: Oh, rats.
• 51:01
  Speaker 4: Is it actually? You know that, yes, the event occurred,
• 51:06
  Speaker 4: but the reaction that I had, unfortunately.
• 51:10
  Speaker 2: Belongs to me. You know, ultimately, alchemy, whether we're talking
• 51:16
  Speaker 2: about the prototype of modern chemistry or its psychological understanding,
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: is about change, and it's about transformation. And it incorporates
• 51:29
  Speaker 2: into it the idea of telos, because you're always trying
• 51:33
  Speaker 2: to turn that lead into gold. There's a place that
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: you're going And every alchemical operation contains this idea of change.
• 51:43
  Speaker 2: The substance that we're working on, which of course, as
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: we know, is really the psyche, is changed in each
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: of these operations.
• 51:53
  Speaker 4: That's really wonderful and worth repeating. This is about transformation.
• 52:01
  Speaker 4: It's not about behaving better or seeing it differently. And
• 52:06
  Speaker 4: the calcinatio, image is perfect for that, because as you
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: said before, Lisa, once something is burned, it's never going back.
• 52:17
  Speaker 4: And we see this developmentally, and we see this, you know,
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: in kids all the time. Once that child knows how
• 52:26
  Speaker 4: to ride a two-wheel bike, you know how to ride
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: a bike for the rest of your life, even if
• 52:31
  Speaker 4: you haven't ridden one for 20 years. These are things
• 52:37
  Speaker 4: where there's Change that stays, change that lasts, change in
• 52:42
  Speaker 4: our substance. You knew how to tie shoes, Joseph. So
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: there's something to be gained here. It's not just tough
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: it out, you know, or as they say, suck it
• 52:55
  Speaker 4: up and just deal with it. We're gaining something from
• 52:59
  Speaker 4: each of these operations, like the one we're talking about today.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: So I'm going to paraphrase something that I think is so,
• 53:06
  Speaker 3: just really great bare bones. And bones are associated with
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: calcinatio too, because let's say in the funeral pyres, bones
• 53:15
  Speaker 3: are what's left. You know, when I took my father's
• 53:18
  Speaker 3: ashes back from the crematorium, which I'd never done before,
• 53:22
  Speaker 3: I peeked in the box. It's full of ground-up bones.
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: It's the calcination process. Jung says something, again, I'm going to,
• 53:33
  Speaker 3: not quote it, but paraphrase it, that in the calcinatio,
• 53:38
  Speaker 3: all super fluidities are consumed in the fire and the
• 53:44
  Speaker 3: basic facts emerge. And boy, that is something that happens
• 53:51
  Speaker 3: in analysis and also a very self-confrontive journaling process is
• 53:56
  Speaker 3: that we spend a lot of time kind of throwing
• 54:00
  Speaker 3: confetti in the air and talking about it, which disperses
• 54:06
  Speaker 3: the change process. It makes it much less competent. But
• 54:11
  Speaker 3: being able to find out the facts inside of us
• 54:16
  Speaker 3: and the facts outside of us, and I think, Deb,
• 54:20
  Speaker 3: you may have used this phrase, which I've taken on,
• 54:22
  Speaker 3: facts are friendly, which I think is a Gestalt-y phrase.
• 54:27
  Speaker 3: And that the end result is the observing ego, which
• 54:32
  Speaker 3: is that experience some of us have in dreams as
• 54:35
  Speaker 3: third-person perspective. I am watching myself go about this little
• 54:40
  Speaker 3: theater of a dream, and I'm somewhere else quietly just watching.
• 54:45
  Speaker 3: So there are no longer the earlier ego make-believes, but
• 54:54
  Speaker 3: a string of hard facts. And that is the ash
• 54:59
  Speaker 3: of the prima materia that is burned off with all
• 55:03
  Speaker 3: of the irrelevant, defensive storytelling that we wrap the facts in,
• 55:10
  Speaker 3: which disguises the issue, going to what you were saying, Deb.
• 55:14
  Speaker 3: And we see this, particularly the difference between free association
• 55:22
  Speaker 3: and disciplined associations. And Jung felt very strongly about it,
• 55:29
  Speaker 3: that when people would just lay on the couch and
• 55:32
  Speaker 3: say whatever came to mind, it was such a dispersing process.
• 55:38
  Speaker 3: But when we're looking at the dream, let's say, and
• 55:41
  Speaker 3: we're doing tight associations and we're staying with the image
• 55:46
  Speaker 3: and the things that are tightly connected to the image,
• 55:52
  Speaker 3: that we then begin to surmise some of the facts
• 55:58
  Speaker 3: underneath the image which actually has a healing property to
• 56:06
  Speaker 3: it and again what we see in analysis as analysts
• 56:12
  Speaker 3: is when we start to take hold of the session
• 56:15
  Speaker 3: and we try to keep the client from going off
• 56:19
  Speaker 3: into the stratosphere and we keep bringing them back to
• 56:23
  Speaker 3: this to this to this you'll see the frustration being built,
• 56:28
  Speaker 3: and it'll look like they're frustrated with you. But really,
• 56:32
  Speaker 3: it is that you're holding them closer to the issue,
• 56:38
  Speaker 3: and their psyche is generating heat, which is necessary to
• 56:45
  Speaker 3: reveal the thing that is hidden. And then I want
• 56:48
  Speaker 3: to tell you a funny story. So one of my
• 56:52
  Speaker 3: old dear friends that used to be a roommate, she, uh,
• 56:58
  Speaker 3: wound up with breast cancer that was successfully treated. And
• 57:01
  Speaker 3: as part of winding up with this terrible problem, she
• 57:04
  Speaker 3: went into therapy, not analysis. And the therapist was this
• 57:10
  Speaker 3: really salty, tough battle axe of a, um, social worker.
• 57:18
  Speaker 3: And my friend and I were both struggling actors, um,
• 57:23
  Speaker 3: So we're all wonderfully theatrical and histrionic. So she told
• 57:28
  Speaker 3: me this. She says she loved this therapist. So she
• 57:32
  Speaker 3: would start to tell a story. And then it would
• 57:36
  Speaker 3: get bigger and bigger and bigger. And the therapist would
• 57:39
  Speaker 3: lean in and go, actress, actress, come on, wake up,
• 57:44
  Speaker 3: wake up, wake up. What are you talking about? What
• 57:46
  Speaker 3: are you talking about? So there's a finger snapping, wake
• 57:51
  Speaker 3: the hell up. you know, honey, and stop performing the
• 57:58
  Speaker 3: drama of the moment and get to the meat of
• 58:01
  Speaker 3: the substance. And however she was able to do that
• 58:05
  Speaker 3: with my friend, she actually kind of delighted in it.
• 58:08
  Speaker 3: And it was the thing she needed. And that's a
• 58:12
  Speaker 3: kind of salty, calcinatio-inducing thing.
• 58:17
  Speaker 4: I want to pick up on something that you've said.
• 58:23
  Speaker 4: about developing an observing ego and that this sort of
• 58:28
  Speaker 4: dispersing or throwing confetti in the air that we go
• 58:32
  Speaker 4: on and on and we take ourselves further and further
• 58:36
  Speaker 4: away from ourselves. So it's, what is it about? You know,
• 58:42
  Speaker 4: we want to find the what is it really about
• 58:45
  Speaker 4: place and be able to look at it So I
• 58:52
  Speaker 4: am feeling, I always pick the example of the boss,
• 58:57
  Speaker 4: all those poor supervisors out there, that this is what
• 59:00
  Speaker 4: happened and I went in and then I did this
• 59:03
  Speaker 4: and he did that. And then when I said this,
• 59:05
  Speaker 4: he did that or she did that. of what is
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: it really about, but how also can I look at
• 59:13
  Speaker 4: it more objectively? Of like, oh, to let the dross
• 59:20
  Speaker 4: of my subjectivity, my involvement, my hurt, my justifying it,
• 59:29
  Speaker 4: my outrage, let that burn away and kind of go, huh,
• 59:36
  Speaker 4: that was weird. I'm really interested in this. I mean,
• 59:39
  Speaker 4: just all I did was I said this or that.
• 59:42
  Speaker 4: Then you can, as we do in our consulting rooms,
• 59:48
  Speaker 4: analyze it. Once we have burned away the intense feelings of,
• 59:56
  Speaker 4: of our own frustration or anger or disappointment or, you know,
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 4: all of those kinds of things. Then we can see it.
• 1:00:05
  Speaker 4: We have something to work with. We have the ash
• 1:00:10
  Speaker 4: that gets mixed in with all those things you talked
• 1:00:12
  Speaker 4: about earlier, and now it's useful.
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 3: Yes, it becomes a mortar for the new personality at
• 1:00:18
  Speaker 3: some point. So the calcination is the ego's mortification, mortar, right?
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 3: Ego's mortification. So a life crisis creates heat in the personality,
• 1:00:33
  Speaker 3: a shattering loss, discovering one's shadow, intense shame, the collapse
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 3: of a worldview that was cherished. And they burn away
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 3: the ego's inflated pride, exposing the prima materia of the
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 3: real self and often And Alisands come in in this
• 1:00:55
  Speaker 3: negrado depression where their former values have been turned into ash.
• 1:00:59
  Speaker 3: And then that's the precondition for the new attitude. And
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 3: the goal, and this is very different from modern therapy,
• 1:01:08
  Speaker 3: very different. The goal is not to rescue the ego
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 3: from the fire too soon, but to let the process complete.
• 1:01:21
  Speaker 3: this is a phrase from von Franz, sitting in hell
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 3: and roasting, there is what brings forth the philosopher's stone.
• 1:01:29
  Speaker 3: So cautioning us, even in supervision we got this caution,
• 1:01:35
  Speaker 3: as analysts, don't offer false comfort that would pull somebody
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 3: out of their transformative pain prematurely, because individuation is foraged
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 3: in the fires of honest, suffering and confrontation with the unconscious.
• 1:01:53
  Speaker 3: Honest suffering.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 2: That's beautifully put. You know, on that, I want to
• 1:01:59
  Speaker 2: bring in a dream, and this is a dream that
• 1:02:02
  Speaker 2: someone submitted a while ago. We're also going to do
• 1:02:05
  Speaker 2: our usual dream at the end, but You know, we
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: went through our dreams and found a couple that relate
• 1:02:10
  Speaker 2: to fire just to kind of show how this works
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: in the psyche. And I think, Joseph, you know, what
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: you said before about sort of, you know, confronting the
• 1:02:19
  Speaker 2: what is. And then what you said about honest suffering
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 2: and just kind of the collapse of something. And then
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 2: what do we do with that? And this dream, it's
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 2: very moving. So I'm just going to read it. So
• 1:02:32
  Speaker 2: this is a woman who is a therapist and she's
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 2: 48 years old and she called her dream escape from destruction.
• 1:02:40
  Speaker 2: She said, I dreamed I was observing myself living in
• 1:02:43
  Speaker 2: some kind of city that was potentially going to be
• 1:02:45
  Speaker 2: under siege. These were not peaceful times. I was getting
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 2: married to a soldier having an actual wedding. Not sure
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: I was in love with him. Then a friend of
• 1:02:55
  Speaker 2: mine was singing in an open air cafe. She was
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: very good. I had a feeling a huge attack by
• 1:03:02
  Speaker 2: the United States government was coming. Then I saw military
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 2: planes and a fleet of naval ships approaching to lay
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 2: waste to the city. An orca had gotten caught in
• 1:03:12
  Speaker 2: some kind of rope attached to one of the boats
• 1:03:14
  Speaker 2: and was being dragged. I felt sorrow for it. I
• 1:03:18
  Speaker 2: urged my friend, the singer, who was now holding a
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 2: small dog in her arms, to come to the subway
• 1:03:23
  Speaker 2: with me and leave the city via train. She declined.
• 1:03:27
  Speaker 2: I went down into the subway and got onto the train.
• 1:03:31
  Speaker 2: As it sped away, I saw a fireball enter the station.
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: I knew the people in the city, including my friend,
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 2: had been incinerated from the bombing. And for context, she says,
• 1:03:43
  Speaker 2: I'm going through a separation and divorce. The reason for
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 2: the divorce was disagreement about having a child and so
• 1:03:50
  Speaker 2: the dream of having a family of my own has
• 1:03:53
  Speaker 2: been lost as well. I'm trying to reconfigure my life.
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 2: So here is a real trial by fire, a real
• 1:04:02
  Speaker 2: calcinatio and very honest suffering. And we're at that moment,
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 2: you know, it's so telling to look at dreams and
• 1:04:14
  Speaker 2: see what happens at the end with the resolution or not.
• 1:04:17
  Speaker 2: There's no resolution here. There's just kind of catastrophe. That's
• 1:04:21
  Speaker 2: what we're left with. We don't know what happens next
• 1:04:24
  Speaker 2: because that's where she is in her life. She is
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 2: in this moment of honest suffering and self-confrontation that can
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: become the crucible for transformation. 100%.
• 1:04:38
  Speaker 3: And the dream maker offers these achingly poignant images with
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 3: which the dreamer can then access the deep feeling that
• 1:04:52
  Speaker 3: she may not be able to feels a great compassionate
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 3: ache for herself. So when she sees the orca being
• 1:05:02
  Speaker 3: dragged around by the boat, helpless and flailing and hurting,
• 1:05:06
  Speaker 3: that it conjures a feeling that's already in her, but
• 1:05:11
  Speaker 3: it conjures it in front of her, conjures it into
• 1:05:16
  Speaker 3: her own waking mind by remembering the dream. So the
• 1:05:22
  Speaker 3: dream offers a kind of... language of feeling, which is
• 1:05:25
  Speaker 3: something you've said many times, Deborah, that we can analyze
• 1:05:29
  Speaker 3: dreams as images of feeling states that we couldn't access otherwise,
• 1:05:35
  Speaker 3: and that our best friends or even our analysts couldn't
• 1:05:38
  Speaker 3: provide the metaphor. Like, I couldn't imagine, you know, you're
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: feeling as if you've seen an orca being dragged helplessly
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: behind a fleet of boats. Like, that's incredible. Who would
• 1:05:49
  Speaker 3: think of that other than the dream maker?
• 1:05:51
  Speaker 2: Mm-hmm. And by the way, if you want to learn
• 1:05:55
  Speaker 2: how to work with your dreams, you want to invest
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 2: more in this incredible tool for self-understanding, remember that we
• 1:06:02
  Speaker 2: have Dream School where you can dive in and take
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 2: these brilliant metaphors provided by the dream maker. You can
• 1:06:10
  Speaker 2: take them. It's an invitation to take them more seriously.
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 2: So do check that out on our website, thisunionlife.com.
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 4: And I want to add to that that What we
• 1:06:22
  Speaker 4: say about dream school is to understand your dreams better.
• 1:06:27
  Speaker 4: But I think I want to change that language a
• 1:06:30
  Speaker 4: bit to pick up on what you just said, Joseph.
• 1:06:33
  Speaker 4: That if we said to somebody, oh my gosh, you
• 1:06:36
  Speaker 4: must feel like you're being dragged around by a boat
• 1:06:39
  Speaker 4: like an orca, people would kind of go, what? But
• 1:06:42
  Speaker 4: when we have a dream, it is an experience. It
• 1:06:46
  Speaker 4: is a lived experience of poignance. and empathy and sorrow
• 1:06:55
  Speaker 4: for this magnificent creature that is a part of you,
• 1:06:59
  Speaker 4: but you know it experientially. And being able to relate
• 1:07:04
  Speaker 4: to it that way, just as what we're talking about
• 1:07:09
  Speaker 4: today about alchemically, is these are life experiences. Without that,
• 1:07:16
  Speaker 4: we just have language and concepts and, you know, It's
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 4: a little dry, it's conceptual, it's valid in its own realm.
• 1:07:25
  Speaker 4: But we're living a whole other life in our dreams
• 1:07:31
  Speaker 4: that is encoded like the alchemist's symbols in special imagery
• 1:07:37
  Speaker 4: that we can access by learning what these dreams mean
• 1:07:44
  Speaker 4: experientially and then using them. for our own growth and
• 1:07:49
  Speaker 4: development of going, oh my God, that orca, yes, I
• 1:07:54
  Speaker 4: get it. That was part of me.
• 1:07:56
  Speaker 3: I felt it.
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 4: I lived it.
• 1:07:58
  Speaker 2: Yeah, there are so many images of suffering in that dream.
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: And that dream school, our dream school, can give you
• 1:08:07
  Speaker 3: the support to see your dreams as transformative processes. Your
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 3: dreams are trying to get you to the place that
• 1:08:19
  Speaker 3: you were meant to be, even that you were longing
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 3: to be, that you didn't even know you were longing for.
• 1:08:24
  Speaker 3: And that's just not a hyperbolic statement. That is what
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 3: dreams can do. And frankly, the three of us have
• 1:08:32
  Speaker 3: not found any other program that does what our dream
• 1:08:36
  Speaker 3: school does. And I don't say that to brag. I
• 1:08:40
  Speaker 3: just think it hasn't been done before. And an important
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 3: element of that is there's a community of other students,
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 3: some of which who have been working in dream school
• 1:08:51
  Speaker 3: for years, some of which are brand new, so that
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 3: you have cohorts, you have other travelers on the path.
• 1:09:00
  Speaker 3: to help analyze your dreams. You have opportunities to offer
• 1:09:04
  Speaker 3: insights about their dreams, to comment on these often very
• 1:09:08
  Speaker 3: arcane concepts, which once they open, they bloom inside of
• 1:09:15
  Speaker 3: you and change you. It's remarkable. So remarkable opportunity and
• 1:09:21
  Speaker 3: dream work is a kind of medicine that you just
• 1:09:25
  Speaker 3: cannot find anywhere else.
• 1:09:27
  Speaker 2: And Deb, I think you were sort of referring to this,
• 1:09:30
  Speaker 2: you know, that the very strange images that we see
• 1:09:35
  Speaker 2: in alchemy, they arise from the same part of the
• 1:09:39
  Speaker 2: psyche as dreams, right? So there is something very kind
• 1:09:43
  Speaker 2: of dreamlike about these alchemical texts or these alchemical images.
• 1:09:48
  Speaker 2: And it is so fascinating, I think, and this is
• 1:09:51
  Speaker 2: one of the reasons why we wanted to do it.
• 1:09:53
  Speaker 2: We wanted to go back and find a fire dream
• 1:09:56
  Speaker 2: and say, okay, how is this a calcinedio? To repeat
• 1:10:00
  Speaker 2: something that I said toward the beginning, it's Jung's insight
• 1:10:04
  Speaker 2: about the universality of these experiences and the fact that
• 1:10:08
  Speaker 2: they appear in our dreams or in our imaginations and
• 1:10:12
  Speaker 2: fantasies in the same language. that they have for other
• 1:10:16
  Speaker 2: people who lived in totally different times and places. So
• 1:10:19
  Speaker 2: we have the alchemist talking about calcination. We have them
• 1:10:25
  Speaker 2: talking about the king being consumed in a great fire.
• 1:10:29
  Speaker 2: And here is a modern woman struggling with something very painful.
• 1:10:34
  Speaker 2: And what shows up in her dream is this image
• 1:10:37
  Speaker 2: of destruction in a great fireball. So Time and again,
• 1:10:42
  Speaker 2: we see this incredible insight of Jung's play out that
• 1:10:46
  Speaker 2: there is something universal about these images and the way
• 1:10:52
  Speaker 2: we experience things. It's so moving to be reminded of
• 1:10:58
  Speaker 2: the universality of these kinds of bedrock experiences of being human.
• 1:11:03
  Speaker 4: And transformation. That's the whole point of our series here.
• 1:11:11
  Speaker 4: which we'll do on an occasional basis, not every single week,
• 1:11:15
  Speaker 4: but it's about transformation or what Jung called individuation. That's
• 1:11:23
  Speaker 4: why it matters. And, you know, we went off on
• 1:11:28
  Speaker 4: a riff about dreams, but that's where we see these strange,
• 1:11:35
  Speaker 4: powerful things at first about very perplexing images, is it's
• 1:11:41
  Speaker 4: inside us. It's inside you. It's inside me. So alchemy
• 1:11:45
  Speaker 4: and the unconscious and dreams are all fellow travelers.
• 1:12:02
  Speaker 3: Today's dreamer is a 26-year-old male, who works as a
• 1:12:06
  Speaker 3: marriage and family therapist intern, and titles this dream, She
• 1:12:14
  Speaker 3: Chooses to Stay. I had a dream where I was
• 1:12:19
  Speaker 3: visiting a real amphibious dinosaur at an aquarium. I was
• 1:12:25
  Speaker 3: there because the aquarium wanted me to help find this
• 1:12:28
  Speaker 3: dinosaur a mate. We would play certain sounds to attract
• 1:12:32
  Speaker 3: a mate, but we weren't making progress. During this time,
• 1:12:36
  Speaker 3: I'd stick my head in the water to observe her,
• 1:12:39
  Speaker 3: but I now realized that was wildly dangerous. Since we
• 1:12:43
  Speaker 3: weren't making any progress, I decided to go talk to her.
• 1:12:48
  Speaker 3: I had to go down these stairs to this dark
• 1:12:50
  Speaker 3: yet comfortable place where there was a window much deeper
• 1:12:55
  Speaker 3: in her tank. Instead of appearing as a dinosaur, she
• 1:13:00
  Speaker 3: appeared differently, but strangely. Her skin was snow white. She
• 1:13:07
  Speaker 3: had beautiful light blue eyes, and she was completely hairless.
• 1:13:12
  Speaker 3: Her personality was vibrant and friendly. I commented on how
• 1:13:17
  Speaker 3: beautiful she looked, and she laughed with amusement, because she's
• 1:13:21
  Speaker 3: beyond human flattery. When I asked about the mating process,
• 1:13:26
  Speaker 3: she told me that all she truly desired was free will.
• 1:13:31
  Speaker 3: I woke up suddenly feeling genuinely terrified, because I realized
• 1:13:35
  Speaker 3: that she could break out of that aquarium any time
• 1:13:37
  Speaker 3: she wanted. The only reason she hadn't is because she
• 1:13:42
  Speaker 3: chose not to. For context, he writes, Due to academic
• 1:13:48
  Speaker 3: and career responsibilities, I've been unable to find the time
• 1:13:52
  Speaker 3: to date, even though it weighs on my mind. I
• 1:13:55
  Speaker 3: seek romantic relationships to add to my collection of self-knowledge.
• 1:14:01
  Speaker 3: He says his main feelings in the dream were curiosity, enchantment,
• 1:14:06
  Speaker 3: and genuine terror. And he offers a few associations. The
• 1:14:12
  Speaker 3: only association I have is that the aquarium looked similar
• 1:14:15
  Speaker 3: to one I used to visit as a child frequently.
• 1:14:19
  Speaker 2: Well, how much do I love this story?
• 1:14:22
  Speaker 4: And isn't this, you know, a perfect extension of Amplification
• 1:14:30
  Speaker 4: of what we were talking about earlier about the importance
• 1:14:32
  Speaker 4: of dreams. Look what a dream can do. Now, is
• 1:14:37
  Speaker 4: it absolutely crystal clear right from the outset?
• 1:14:40
  Speaker 2: No. Is it important?
• 1:14:43
  Speaker 4: Is it meaningful? Does it have a certain luminosity? Yes.
• 1:14:48
  Speaker 2: So if we start off right at the top with
• 1:14:52
  Speaker 2: this dream... It's an amphibious dinosaur at an aquarium. So
• 1:14:58
  Speaker 2: that right there is such a fulsome image because dinosaurs,
• 1:15:02
  Speaker 2: of course, are extinct. There are these generally enormous creatures
• 1:15:08
  Speaker 2: that kind of have a big archetypal jolt to them
• 1:15:12
  Speaker 2: because they're essentially, you know, kind of monsters. But here's
• 1:15:17
  Speaker 2: one that is alive. And it's contained in an aquarium.
• 1:15:24
  Speaker 2: So this would be an, sort of, if this happened
• 1:15:26
  Speaker 2: in real life, wow, it would be a really rare thing.
• 1:15:30
  Speaker 3: Jurassic Park.
• 1:15:31
  Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, there you go, Jurassic Park, which there's a,
• 1:15:34
  Speaker 2: the new movie is out, and I, am I gonna go?
• 1:15:38
  Speaker 2: I always go to this. But, so it's really highly unusual.
• 1:15:45
  Speaker 2: It's something from an ancient, ancient time, so you could
• 1:15:48
  Speaker 2: even think about it sort of like phylogenetically, the dinosaur
• 1:15:52
  Speaker 2: part of us is very, very old, and we still
• 1:15:56
  Speaker 2: have that part of us in our kind of limbic
• 1:15:59
  Speaker 2: system in the brain, our emotional system. So this is
• 1:16:04
  Speaker 2: really ancient, important, valuable, and contained in this, you know,
• 1:16:12
  Speaker 2: an aquarium, a place that you take little kids, you know,
• 1:16:15
  Speaker 2: for entertainment.
• 1:16:17
  Speaker 4: And amphibians live in two realms. They live in the
• 1:16:21
  Speaker 4: water and they live on land. And building on what
• 1:16:25
  Speaker 4: you said about really, really old, Jung talked about the
• 1:16:28
  Speaker 4: three million year old man in each of us, that
• 1:16:32
  Speaker 4: our phylogenetic memory, if I can call it that, goes way,
• 1:16:36
  Speaker 4: way back. So here we are with this incredible initial image.
• 1:16:44
  Speaker 4: of the amphibious dinosaur who is contained. The dinosaur wants
• 1:16:51
  Speaker 4: a mate.
• 1:16:53
  Speaker 3: No, actually, she doesn't. The dream ego thinks she needs
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 3: a mate.
• 1:16:57
  Speaker 4: Oh, the aquarium wants the dream ego. So we have
• 1:17:04
  Speaker 4: an organization, the aquarium, meaning the administration of this aquarium,
• 1:17:11
  Speaker 4: wants the dream ego. to help the dinosaur find a mate.
• 1:17:18
  Speaker 4: And they weren't making any progress despite playing certain sounds
• 1:17:23
  Speaker 4: that were purportedly to attract a mate. So he'd stick
• 1:17:28
  Speaker 4: his head in the water, then realizes that's dangerous. And then,
• 1:17:35
  Speaker 4: as I don't know how many mythological examples tell us,
• 1:17:41
  Speaker 4: Our dream ego has to make a descent.
• 1:17:45
  Speaker 2: Before we get to the descent, though, let's talk about
• 1:17:48
  Speaker 2: this image of him sticking his head in the water.
• 1:17:52
  Speaker 2: On the one hand, I think it shows a desire
• 1:17:55
  Speaker 2: on the part of the dreamer to have an encounter
• 1:17:58
  Speaker 2: with something in the unconscious. But it's also a little hubristic.
• 1:18:03
  Speaker 2: It's like, I'm going to go into her world, and
• 1:18:07
  Speaker 2: as the dream ego realizes, that could be very dangerous.
• 1:18:11
  Speaker 2: So what I might wonder about, for example, is, you know,
• 1:18:16
  Speaker 2: someone who's like, I want to have a groovy experience
• 1:18:19
  Speaker 2: of the unconscious and I'm going to do a lot
• 1:18:21
  Speaker 2: of acid. Well, you're going to have an experience with
• 1:18:25
  Speaker 2: the unconscious. And for some people that could be too much,
• 1:18:28
  Speaker 2: like that can be dangerous.
• 1:18:30
  Speaker 3: I can vouch for that.
• 1:18:34
  Speaker 2: So you don't want to do it just for fun.
• 1:18:36
  Speaker 2: You don't want to do it casually. So he's being
• 1:18:40
  Speaker 2: a little bit too casual. And then I think he
• 1:18:43
  Speaker 2: gets to the point where you were going, to, where
• 1:18:45
  Speaker 2: he realizes he has to make a kind of intentional
• 1:18:48
  Speaker 2: dissent that honors that she lives in her own realm.
• 1:18:54
  Speaker 2: I mean, you don't want the archetypes coming alive and
• 1:18:57
  Speaker 2: joining you at your desk because that's psychosis. You want
• 1:19:04
  Speaker 2: that big, strong, plexiglass wall or whatever it is, those
• 1:19:09
  Speaker 2: aquarium walls, between you and the archetype. You want to
• 1:19:13
  Speaker 2: honor the power of the archetype by making sure that
• 1:19:16
  Speaker 2: there is, that you recognize that you don't belong in
• 1:19:21
  Speaker 2: that world. You don't belong in that world.
• 1:19:24
  Speaker 4: There's separation. The observing ego.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 2: Once again.
• 1:19:28
  Speaker 3: But I find myself leaning into, and boy, I wish
• 1:19:34
  Speaker 3: this person was here, When I asked her about the
• 1:19:37
  Speaker 3: mating process, she told me that all she truly desired
• 1:19:41
  Speaker 3: was free will. Boy, that term free will can mean
• 1:19:45
  Speaker 3: so many different things to so many different people. But
• 1:19:49
  Speaker 3: that's the revelation. Like, that's the oracular moment of the dream,
• 1:19:53
  Speaker 3: is that there is... That's the new discovery. Yes, there's
• 1:19:57
  Speaker 3: a misinterpretation about what is needed. And then the thing,
• 1:20:03
  Speaker 3: which is just what we're talking about, The instinct reveals
• 1:20:06
  Speaker 3: its own fantasy, its own desire, which is languaged in
• 1:20:12
  Speaker 3: the dream as free will. Like I said, that's a
• 1:20:15
  Speaker 3: very complicated process and phrase. So it's difficult to know,
• 1:20:22
  Speaker 3: but clearly he's a marital and family therapist intern. The
• 1:20:28
  Speaker 3: psyche is thinking, you need a mate. It's all about
• 1:20:30
  Speaker 3: the mate. Find a mate. If they just got a mate,
• 1:20:32
  Speaker 3: got married, then we could do therapy with the two
• 1:20:35
  Speaker 3: of them and make it all really work. You know,
• 1:20:37
  Speaker 3: dinosaur therapy is the thing. But something inside says, it's
• 1:20:44
  Speaker 3: not all about the marriage. It's not all about the mating.
• 1:20:48
  Speaker 3: But there's this other thing called free will that is
• 1:20:52
  Speaker 3: more desired. And Perhaps that would be quite a new concept,
• 1:20:59
  Speaker 3: which he finds terrifying, but a new concept that might
• 1:21:02
  Speaker 3: be relevant to his development as a marriage and family therapist,
• 1:21:07
  Speaker 3: which is where is free will in the system of
• 1:21:12
  Speaker 3: doing couples counseling and family therapy?
• 1:21:15
  Speaker 2: I want to, while we're in that place, just lift
• 1:21:18
  Speaker 2: up a few things. First of all, clearly, this is
• 1:21:22
  Speaker 2: a wallop of an anima image. So she is a dinosaur,
• 1:21:27
  Speaker 2: but she's so clearly female, and her skin is snow white,
• 1:21:30
  Speaker 2: and she has beautiful light blue eyes, and she's hairless.
• 1:21:34
  Speaker 4: And don't forget vibrant and friendly.
• 1:21:37
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes. So not a human anima, but I think
• 1:21:41
  Speaker 2: that's definitely the realm that we're in. It reminds me
• 1:21:44
  Speaker 2: a little bit about that film, The Shape of Water.
• 1:21:47
  Speaker 3: I was thinking about that.
• 1:21:50
  Speaker 2: Yes, which we did a podcast on way, way back.
• 1:21:55
  Speaker 2: But in any case, Joseph, yeah, I think what you're
• 1:21:58
  Speaker 2: saying is really important. This is the revelation. This is
• 1:22:00
  Speaker 2: the kind of new information. And then, of course, he
• 1:22:04
  Speaker 2: feels really terrified because he realizes she's much more powerful
• 1:22:09
  Speaker 2: than he. She cannot be contained. And that is true.
• 1:22:14
  Speaker 2: The anima can't be contained. The anima is not there
• 1:22:16
  Speaker 2: for your enjoyment and entertainment.
• 1:22:20
  Speaker 4: It's not a pet.
• 1:22:22
  Speaker 2: It's not a pet. A dinosaur is not a good pet.
• 1:22:26
  Speaker 2: And one of the things that came up for me
• 1:22:28
  Speaker 2: with this dream, so I talked a little bit about
• 1:22:33
  Speaker 2: the hubris of putting his head in the water. There's
• 1:22:35
  Speaker 2: another place where I think hubris shows up in this
• 1:22:38
  Speaker 2: dream text, and that's in the associations. He says, I
• 1:22:43
  Speaker 2: seek romantic relationships to add to my collection of self-knowledge. Well,
• 1:22:49
  Speaker 2: A romantic relationship will certainly teach you more about yourself.
• 1:22:53
  Speaker 2: But if you're going in because you want to learn
• 1:22:58
  Speaker 2: more about yourself.
• 1:22:59
  Speaker 3: Looking for specimens.
• 1:23:01
  Speaker 2: Yes, yes. So that is a hubristic attitude. Really what's
• 1:23:06
  Speaker 2: going to happen when you fall in love is you're
• 1:23:08
  Speaker 2: going to get the psychic shit get kicked out of you.
• 1:23:11
  Speaker 2: That's what happens when you fall in love is It
• 1:23:13
  Speaker 2: isn't about, oh, this is very interesting and I'll learn
• 1:23:17
  Speaker 2: a lot from it. You have to, you submit to
• 1:23:20
  Speaker 2: a force greater than yourself. And I think that's where
• 1:23:24
  Speaker 2: this dream is going. I think that's the medicine in
• 1:23:27
  Speaker 2: the dream is for the dreamer, both as you said, Joseph,
• 1:23:30
  Speaker 2: to realize it's not about, you know, the maid, it's
• 1:23:33
  Speaker 2: about free will, but also you are in the presence
• 1:23:36
  Speaker 2: of something larger than you and you have to kind
• 1:23:40
  Speaker 2: of drop this really egoic attitude that You're going to
• 1:23:44
  Speaker 2: be in control of it. You're going to set the agenda.
• 1:23:47
  Speaker 2: You're going to be able to contain it.
• 1:23:51
  Speaker 4: Not. And it's right there in the dream of exactly
• 1:23:58
  Speaker 4: mirrors this, that the aquarium wants our dream ego to
• 1:24:04
  Speaker 4: find the dinosaur mate. That is the diktat coming forth
• 1:24:09
  Speaker 4: from the powers that be. That's the solution. This is
• 1:24:13
  Speaker 4: what we're after. But then when he actually encounters this
• 1:24:18
  Speaker 4: wonderful dinosaur, she says, oh, oh, I don't want a mate.
• 1:24:25
  Speaker 4: I just want free will. I want to be myself.
• 1:24:30
  Speaker 4: I want to express myself. And that is the anima
• 1:24:36
  Speaker 4: and animus. And it's also what Jung said, over and
• 1:24:39
  Speaker 4: over again about the unconscious. It has its own direction.
• 1:24:43
  Speaker 4: It has its own energy. It has its own agency.
• 1:24:48
  Speaker 4: And so kind of be careful what you wish for
• 1:24:52
  Speaker 4: in thinking that your romantic, I'm repeating or reiterating what
• 1:24:56
  Speaker 4: you've said, that a romantic relationship is something you can
• 1:25:01
  Speaker 4: have versus it will have its own energy. It will
• 1:25:06
  Speaker 4: have its own direction. It will have plenty of intense feeling.
• 1:25:12
  Speaker 4: So the caution here is the old R-E-S-P-E-C-T that we
• 1:25:19
  Speaker 4: got from Aretha Franklin.
• 1:25:21
  Speaker 2: So I do want to say, I think this dream
• 1:25:26
  Speaker 2: is a little poke. It's a bit of a corrective.
• 1:25:30
  Speaker 2: But I also, and this is a young man, and
• 1:25:34
  Speaker 2: it also signifies to me, that he has quite an
• 1:25:40
  Speaker 2: ability to have a relationship with the unconscious.
• 1:25:44
  Speaker 4: Yes.
• 1:25:45
  Speaker 2: So I imagine that he will make a very fine therapist. Yes,
• 1:25:49
  Speaker 2: this is a gift of a dream.
• 1:25:51
  Speaker 4: This is a real gift that the dream maker has said,
• 1:25:56
  Speaker 4: you're worthy of this kind of a wondrous dream. And
• 1:26:02
  Speaker 4: a relationship... maybe not the way you're currently conceiving of it,
• 1:26:07
  Speaker 4: but a relationship with this wonderful, vibrant, friendly power in
• 1:26:12
  Speaker 4: the unconscious.
• 1:26:15
  Speaker 3: It's also, I hope, reinforcing the idea that if you're
• 1:26:19
  Speaker 3: doing marital therapy, learning what Jung had to say about
• 1:26:23
  Speaker 3: the anima and animus is central to understanding couple dynamics.
• 1:26:29
  Speaker 3: And if that's a new concept, There's a very accessible
• 1:26:34
  Speaker 3: book called Invisible Partners. I can't remember the author at
• 1:26:39
  Speaker 3: the moment, but if you type that into the search,
• 1:26:42
  Speaker 3: it'll come forward, which is a great introduction to the
• 1:26:46
  Speaker 3: way that our inner representations of the romantic other influence
• 1:26:52
  Speaker 3: our outer relationships. The idea that this powerful archetypal force
• 1:27:00
  Speaker 3: could break out of the aquarium is and then go
• 1:27:03
  Speaker 3: about its independent business is frightening. It gives us an
• 1:27:08
  Speaker 3: important sense of where the work lay relative to also
• 1:27:13
  Speaker 3: becoming a couples counselor, is that boxing the couple into
• 1:27:21
  Speaker 3: a prescribed way idea about what coupling should look like
• 1:27:27
  Speaker 3: or what the family should look like can be quite difficult.
• 1:27:31
  Speaker 3: And we find, as Virginia Satir did with her family
• 1:27:36
  Speaker 3: therapy work, is that every family has its own unique
• 1:27:42
  Speaker 3: structure and dynamic, and it can't be put into an aquarium.
• 1:27:47
  Speaker 3: It can't be put into a single frame, although we
• 1:27:51
  Speaker 3: have to learn about this initially in a structured way.
• 1:27:55
  Speaker 3: But you're right. Who you are as a marital and
• 1:27:59
  Speaker 3: family therapist and the families themselves will have to break
• 1:28:03
  Speaker 3: out of the aquarium to reveal their true and full nature.
• 1:28:08
  Speaker 3: And as an intern, I remember being a social work intern,
• 1:28:12
  Speaker 3: that's a scary proposition that it's not going to line
• 1:28:15
  Speaker 3: up with all of the tidy theories that we learn
• 1:28:18
  Speaker 3: in school.
• 1:28:19
  Speaker 4: And that's the good news.
• 1:28:21
  Speaker 2: Really?
• 1:28:22
  Speaker 4: That's the good news.
• 1:28:24
  Speaker 3: It makes it much more interesting, right? Exactly. Much more
• 1:28:26
  Speaker 3: fascinating and unpredictable.
• 1:28:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah. Thanks for listening. To submit a dream, suggest an
• 1:28:33
  Speaker 2: episode topic, or join our mailing list, visit our website, thisunionlife.com.
• 1:28:39
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• 1:28:42
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• 1:28:56
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