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Maya Badham: How Domestic Abuse Impacts Pets · Paws Between Us - Pet Stories, Welfare and Building A Bond

0:00
Welcome to the Paws Between Us podcast, co-hosted by our best friends Natalie
0:04
and Sasha. We're lifelong animal lovers and proud pet parents,
0:08
and between us we share our lives with cats Murray and Weaver and Betty
0:12
the pug. In each episode, we'll dive into the joys and challenges
0:15
of living with our furry companions, sharing honest stories,
0:18
laughter, and maybe sometimes a few tears. We'll also
0:22
bring in special guests who are making the world a better place for pets,
0:25
who'll be offering expert-backed tips and proven practices for keeping your own
0:29
pets happy, healthy, and loved. Please note some may touch on sensitive topics
0:33
or contain strong language. Listener discretion is advised.
0:38
Hey, Sash. Hey, Nat. How are you?
0:42
I'm all right, thank you. I'm all right. This is one of those episodes that
0:45
may be touching on sensitive, well, is touching on sensitive topics this week.
0:50
So, we just do need to let people know what's coming a little bit.
0:53
So, yeah. Yeah, we do, don't we? I think this
0:58
is one of those topics that is close to our hearts, just based on some
1:01
of our own experiences. Experiences and other people that
1:05
we've connected with over time. So yeah, it probably requires
1:09
a little bit of explanation, I would say, about why
1:13
we think it's an important topic. And also
1:16
we want to just share some signposts for anyone who may
1:20
be listening today and can relate to what we're saying
1:24
or know someone who is in a similar
1:27
situation who may need some help. So we thought we'd also do things
1:32
a little bit differently today and share some signposts for people that
1:35
might want them. Good call. Yeah. So yeah, we're going to be
1:39
speaking to Maya Badham. We came across her, people may remember,
1:43
we quoted some of her research a few months back. She was
1:46
talking about dogs and their emotions. And she is actively on
1:51
LinkedIn with her dog Podrick, talking about
1:54
what they do, where they're going, but also some of the work, very important work
1:58
she does, which is around safeguarding and abuse and coercive
2:02
control and other sort of support for humans, like homelessness and other
2:06
kinds of things. She's, um, Very prevalent in that area
2:09
of work. And we wanted to invite her on to share some of her insights
2:14
because safeguarding and obviously abusive
2:18
relationships, um, is a very difficult subject matter.
2:22
Um, and one we thought would benefit a lot of people, but also interesting
2:26
to talk about how the pets and the animals are involved
2:30
in that. So people can kind of have their eyes open to that sort of
2:33
that world and kind of where those things might come into play.
2:38
Yeah, 'cause I, you know, I think we're very aware that any individual
2:43
or family experiencing domestic abuse may have
2:47
pets, so they might have cats or dogs or
2:50
other pets that, like you say, are impacted in
2:54
different ways and are involved in some of those, those scenarios.
2:58
And yeah, there are lots of links between domestic abuse and
3:02
animal abuse as well. So it's very sensitive,
3:06
but something that we feel is is important to talk about
3:10
and is important to spotlight. And yeah, so we've
3:14
invited, um, Maia on today just to kind of talk to us
3:18
a little bit more about that as someone who's done lots of research in this
3:21
space and is very experienced in working in the past with
3:24
people who have experienced abuse as well.
3:28
Yeah, she's got lots of life experience as well as working towards changing
3:33
things and improving the support for people and their pets,
3:36
which is quite inspiring, which I know she'll tell us a little bit about too.
3:40
Yeah. I mean, something that we're very passionate about, aren't we, Nat, as well,
3:43
um, that we would like to see change here in the UK is
3:47
that often people who have, um,
3:49
experienced domestic abuse and then make a decision to
3:53
leave that situation, and if they have pets, they're often unable
3:57
to take them with them, as most temporary housing does not allow pets.
4:01
And in many cases, the research shows that that actually stops people from
4:05
leaving those situations, which, yeah,
4:08
it's It's quite sobering to hear that. And I know that that's something
4:12
that you and I are very passionate about and would really like to see
4:16
change. Yeah, it's really hard, isn't it?
4:20
Because I can, you can totally see that because, you know,
4:23
depending on your bond with that animal, it's gonna be, you know,
4:27
it's difficult enough. And then the thought of either having to leave
4:31
the animal behind or worry about where it's going
4:34
is gonna add. A whole heap of extra concerns,
4:38
pressures, thoughts, decisions. Yeah, we were
4:42
looking a little bit about how maybe give some reassurance to people who may be
4:46
affected by some of the issues we're going to talk about. But there are,
4:49
there are systems, support services in place that can
4:54
provide some temporary housing for your
4:58
animal if you are in that circumstance. It's not brilliant.
5:01
And I would agree, Sasha, what you said, like, I would love to see that
5:05
barrier removed. I understand that animals
5:09
and pets, especially if you've got big dogs that may be loud and barking and
5:11
maybe traumatised themselves, having them in a hostel with other
5:15
people who are going through that difficult time could be
5:19
a frightening experience. You know, it doesn't help, but there needs to be a solution.
5:22
They absolutely should lower that barrier because it needs to
5:27
be as easy as possible for someone to leave and start a new life,
5:30
particularly with their animal family member.
5:35
Yeah, no, definitely. And I know there are charities
5:38
out there that are always looking for people to do short-term
5:43
foster of pets so that you know that if you are
5:47
planning to leave that situation that you are in,
5:51
and there is someone out there who will be able to foster your
5:55
pet temporarily while you can, um,
5:58
escape and get you on your feet. So yeah, that's, that's good to know as
6:01
well. I've thought about doing fostering myself
6:06
or people in those situations before. So, something to look into.
6:10
But I think it's important to say that if you need support because you
6:13
are experiencing domestic abuse or you're worried about someone, you can
6:17
contact 24-hour National Domestic Abuse Hotline
6:22
on 0808 2000 247.
6:25
And we'll put that information also in the, um,
6:29
podcast chat. There's also a Respect Men's advice
6:33
line on 0808 8010
6:37
327. And if you are in an emergency, then do
6:41
call the police. And in terms
6:45
of any charities out there that
6:48
will also support you if you do have
6:52
a pet and you are worried about what
6:55
may happen to your pet if you leave. There are several
6:59
organisations. So one is the Cat Protection Lifeline, which is a free confidential
7:04
cat fostering service for people fleeing domestic abuse. There's also
7:08
Freedom, which is a specialist service by the Dogs Trust, and they
7:11
also provide a free and specialist fostering service for
7:15
those escaping abuse. There's also Endeavour, a pet service
7:19
which covers the Northwest specifically. So if you are in that area
7:23
and you are looking to escape a situation and need access into a
7:27
refuge or temporary accommodation. Endeavour can offer a pet
7:30
foster service, and then there's also Refuge for Pets, which does
7:35
the same, but it's focused on Devon and Cornwall.
7:38
Yeah, there are support services out there. I think I
7:41
even did a quick Google search, a ChatGPT
7:46
search, any of them, for local support,
7:49
and a few came up even in my area. So if people are
7:53
looking for those, there'll be other refuges and temporary
7:57
fostering places for your pets as well in your local
8:01
area. There should be other things if you want to have a look for those
8:03
too. Yeah.
8:07
So, one of the other reasons why we wanted to explore this topic today
8:11
is linked to a survey that was conducted in 2019
8:16
called the Pets and Domestic Abuse Survey, which was Run
8:20
by Freedom, the specialist survey for The Dogs Trust that I, I talked
8:25
about a moment ago. And they have done lots of work
8:28
with professionals who support survivors of domestic
8:33
abuse and have seen the firsthand impact that abuse can
8:36
have on dogs. And of course they also have seen how
8:41
much dogs mean to their owners and how much comfort and companionship that they,
8:45
they offer through really, really, really difficult situations.
8:49
And as I know, you know, from my experience, is that my dog
8:54
is my lifeline just for anything in life. And so,
8:57
yeah, I think they can kind of really see how that sort of warmth and
9:02
love is there. And actually, you know, the impact that domestic
9:06
abuse can have on pets
9:10
is, is, you know, is actually really, really significant.
9:13
Many pets do suffer. So,
9:18
They have said that 9 out of 10 survivors will not
9:22
leave their home without knowing that their pet would be safe. And that's something we've
9:26
just sort of talked about. But in terms of some of the survey findings that
9:30
they did uncover, that 89% of professionals
9:34
were aware of domestic abuse cases where pets had also been abused.
9:40
And 97% of professionals believe that threats
9:44
to pets are used as a tool to attempt to coerce and control someone.
9:48
And 89% of professionals knew of cases where pets had been used
9:52
as a tool for emotional abuse. Yeah. Really, really,
9:56
really sobering. But it is an important topic
10:00
that we felt, didn't we, Nat, that we wanted to explore with a, with a
10:04
professional who has, um,
10:07
lots of insight and expertise and,
10:10
um, knowledge of this, this topic. And can talk to us, tell us
10:15
a bit more. Yeah, she'd been working in the space for many years,
10:18
um, and has got lots of expertise around this.
10:21
And, uh, with her own company setup, she's making progress,
10:26
uh, into improvements around some of the services that
10:30
are there to support people and some of the, um, flagging systems.
10:34
So let's bring her in. Yep, indeed.
10:39
Welcome to the Pause Between Us podcast, co-hosted by our best friends, Natalie.
10:44
And Sasha. We're lifelong animal lovers and proud pet parents,
10:47
and between us, we share our lives with cats Murray and Weaver and
10:51
Betty the pug. In each episode, we'll dive into
10:54
the joys and challenges of living with our furry companions, sharing honest stories,
10:58
laughter, and maybe sometimes a few tears. We'll also bring
11:01
in special guests who are making the world a better place for pets,
11:05
who'll be offering expert-backed tips and proven practices for keeping
11:08
your own pets happy, healthy, and loved. Please note, some episodes may touch on sensitive
11:13
topics or contain strong language. Listener discretion Hey,
11:18
Sash. Hey, Nat. How are you?
11:21
I'm all right. Thank you. I'm all right. This is one of those episodes
11:24
that may be touching on sensitive, well, is touching on sensitive
11:28
topics this week. So, we just do need to let people know what's
11:32
coming a little bit. So, yeah. Yeah, we do, don't we?
11:36
I think this is one of those topics that is close
11:40
to our hearts, just based on some of our own experiences and
11:44
other people that we've connected with over time. So, yeah, I think it's important.
11:47
So, yeah, it probably requires a little bit of explanation,
11:51
I would say, about why we think it's an important
11:54
topic. And also, we want to just share some signposts
11:58
for anyone who may be listening today and can relate
12:02
to what we're saying or know someone who is in a
12:07
similar situation who may need some help. So, we thought we'd also do things
12:11
a little bit differently today and share some signposts for people that
12:15
might want them. Good call. Yeah. So yeah, we're going to be
12:19
speaking to Maya Badham. We came across her, people may remember,
12:22
we quoted some of her research a few months back. She was talking
12:27
about dogs and their emotions, and she is actively on LinkedIn
12:31
with her dog Podrick, talking about what they do,
12:34
where they're going, but also some of the work, very important work she does,
12:37
which is around safeguarding and abuse and coercive
12:41
control and other sort of support for humans, like homelessness and other kinds
12:46
of things. She's, um, very prevalent in that area of work.
12:49
And we wanted to invite her on to share some of her insights
12:54
because safeguarding and obviously abusive
12:57
relationships, um, is a very difficult subject matter.
13:02
Um, and one we thought would benefit a lot of people, but also interesting
13:05
to talk about how the pets and the animals are involved
13:10
in that. So people can kind of have their eyes open to that sort of
13:13
that world and kind of where those things might come into play.
13:18
Yeah, 'cause I, you know, I think we're very aware that any
13:21
individual or family experiencing domestic abuse
13:25
may have pets, so they might have cats or dogs
13:29
or other pets that, like you say, are impacted
13:33
in different ways and are involved in some of those, those scenarios.
13:38
And yeah, there are lots of links between domestic abuse
13:41
and animal abuse as well. So it's
13:45
very sensitive, but something that we feel is important
13:49
to talk about and is important to spotlight. And yeah,
13:53
so we've invited, um, Maia on today just to
13:56
kind of talk to us a little bit more about that as someone who's done
13:59
lots of research in this space and is very experienced in working
14:03
in the past with people who have experienced abuse as
14:07
well. Yeah, she's got lots of life experience as well as working
14:11
towards changing things and improving the support for
14:15
people and their pets, which is quite inspiring, which I know she'll tell us a
14:18
little bit about too. Yeah. And I mean, something that we are very passionate about,
14:21
aren't we, Nat, as well, um, that we would like to see change
14:25
here in the UK is that often people who have,
14:28
um, experienced domestic abuse and then make a decision
14:32
to leave that situation, and if they have pets,
14:35
they're often unable to take them with them, as most temporary housing does
14:39
not allow pets. And in many cases, the research shows
14:43
that that actually stops people from leaving those situations,
14:46
which, yeah, it's, yeah. It's quite sobering to hear that.
14:50
And I know that that's something that you and I are very passionate
14:54
about and would really like to see change.
14:58
Yeah, it's really hard, isn't it? Because I can, you can totally see that
15:02
because, you know, depending on your bond with that animal, it's gonna be,
15:06
you know, it's difficult enough. And then the thought of either having to
15:10
leave the animal behind or worry about where it's
15:14
going is gonna add a whole heap of extra concerns,
15:17
pressures, thoughts, decisions. Um,
15:21
yeah, we were looking a little bit about how maybe give some reassurance to
15:24
people who may be affected by some of the issues we're gonna talk about.
15:28
There are, there are systems, support services in
15:31
place that can provide some temporary housing
15:36
for your animal if you are in that circumstance. It's not brilliant.
15:40
And I would agree, Sasha, what you said, like I would love to see that
15:44
barrier removed. I understand that animals
15:48
and pets, especially if they've got big dogs that may be loud and barking and
15:51
maybe traumatised themselves, having them in a hostel with other people who
15:55
are going through that difficult time could be a frightening experience.
16:00
You know, it doesn't help, but there needs to be a solution. They absolutely should
16:03
lower that barrier because it needs to be as easy as possible for someone
16:08
to leave and start a new life, particularly with their animal
16:12
family member. Yeah, no, definitely.
16:16
And I know there are charities out there that are always looking
16:19
for people to do short-term foster of
16:23
pets, so that you know that if you are planning to
16:27
leave that situation that you are in, and there
16:31
is someone out there who will be able to foster your pet temporarily
16:35
while you can, um, escape and get you on
16:39
your feet. So yeah, that's, that's good to know as well.
16:42
I've thought about doing fostering myself for people
16:46
in those situations before, so that makes sense to look into.
16:49
But I think it's important to say that if you need support because you are
16:53
experiencing domestic abuse or you're worried about someone, you can contact
16:57
24-hour National Domestic Abuse Hotline on
17:01
0808 2000 247,
17:04
and we'll put that information also in the, um,
17:08
podcast chat. There's also a Respect Men's
17:12
advice line on 0808 8010
17:16
327. And if you are in an emergency,
17:20
then do call the police.
17:23
And in terms of any charities out there
17:28
that will also support you if you do have
17:31
a pet and you are worried about what may
17:35
happen to your pet if you leave. There are several
17:39
organisations. So one is the Cat Protection Lifeline, which is a free confidential
17:43
cat fostering service for people fleeing domestic abuse. There's also
17:47
Freedom, which is a specialist service by the Dogs Trust, and they
17:51
also provide a free and specialist fostering service for those
17:55
escaping abuse. There's also Endeavour, a pet service which
17:58
covers the Northwest specifically. So if you are in that area and you
18:02
are looking to escape a situation and need access into
18:06
a refuge or temporary accommodation. Endeavour can offer a pet foster service,
18:10
and then there's also Refuge for Pets, which does
18:14
the same, but it's focused on Devon and Cornwall.
18:17
Yeah, there are support services out there. I think I even did
18:22
a quick Google search, a ChatGPT search, any of
18:25
them, for local support, and a few
18:30
came up even in my area. So if people are looking for those,
18:33
there'll be other refuges and temporary fostering places
18:38
for your pets as well in your local area. There should be other things if
18:42
you want to have a look for those too.
18:44
Yeah. So, one of the other reasons
18:48
why we wanted to explore this topic today is linked to
18:52
a survey that was conducted in 2019
18:56
called the Pets and Domestic Abuse Survey, which was Run
18:59
by Freedom, the specialist survey for The Dogs Trust that I,
19:03
I talked about a moment ago. And they have done lots of work
19:07
with professionals who support survivors of
19:11
domestic abuse and have seen the firsthand impact
19:15
that abuse can have on dogs. And of
19:18
course they also have seen how much dogs mean to their owners and how
19:22
much comfort and companionship that they, they offer through really,
19:26
really, really difficult situations. And as I know,
19:30
you know, from my experience, is that my dog is my lifeline just
19:34
for anything in life. And so, yeah, I think
19:38
they can kind of really see how that sort of warmth and love is there.
19:42
And actually, you know, the impact that domestic
19:45
abuse can have on pets is, is,
19:49
you know, is actually really, really significant.
19:54
Many pets do suffer. So,
19:58
They have said that 9 out of 10 survivors
20:01
will not leave their home without knowing that their pet would be safe. And that's
20:04
something we've just sort of talked about. But in terms of some of the survey
20:08
findings that they did uncover, that 89%
20:13
of professionals were aware of domestic abuse cases where pets
20:16
had also been abused. And 97%
20:21
of professionals believe that threats to pets are used as a tool to attempt
20:25
to coerce and control someone. And 89% of
20:29
professionals knew of cases where pets had been used as a tool for emotional abuse.
20:34
Yeah. Really, really, really sobering. But it
20:38
is an important topic that we felt, didn't we, Nat, that we wanted to
20:42
explore with a, with a professional who has,
20:46
um, lots of insight and expertise and,
20:50
um, knowledge of this, this topic and can talk to us, tell us
20:54
a bit more. Yeah, she'd been working in the space for many years,
20:58
um, and has got lots of expertise around this. And, uh,
21:01
with her own company setup, she's making progress,
21:05
uh, into improvements around some of the services
21:09
that are there to support people and some of the, um,
21:12
flagging systems. So let's bring her in.
21:16
Yep, indeed.
21:21
Okay, here we are. Welcome everybody. So as we said,
21:24
our guest today is Maya Badham, um, the founder and
21:28
lead trainer at Loop Safeguarding. Maya works to
21:32
explore and educate around the connection between domestic abuse and animal
21:36
cruelty. She's a trauma-informed practice expert, a family dog mediator,
21:40
and a certified canine trauma expert. Um,
21:44
she'll tell us a little bit more about that soon, but we'll be speaking to
21:48
Maya about safeguarding abuse and abusers and how both animals and humans are
21:51
deeply affected by this awful thing. And we'll
21:56
touch on how we as pet lovers and pet professionals potentially can spot those
21:59
warning signs to help protect everybody, including our
22:03
animal friends. You came to my attention, Maya,
22:07
we touched on one of your posts on LinkedIn a few weeks ago on one
22:11
of our podcasts actually about how dogs experience trauma
22:15
as well. So we kind of covered that, and some of the listeners might,
22:17
might have remembered some of your sort of research and interest. So that's what brought
22:21
us to find out more about you. So welcome, thanks for coming on.
22:26
Thank you for having me, really appreciate it. So like,
22:29
yeah, Maya, tell us a little bit about like you and your sort
22:33
of fur family background and kind of what, what, what your kind of— why you
22:37
came into the world with animals. I know a lot of it is about safeguarding
22:40
get humans as well, but what's the animal side? Why, why has that come into
22:43
your life? How did that come about? So I've always loved
22:47
animals and I grew up with, with animals being kind of my closest
22:51
friends, I suppose. But really it wasn't until 2019
22:55
I got my dog, uh, Podrick, who you probably have seen.
22:59
And I got him as a puppy and I
23:03
was just really interested in What is he thinking? Why is he
23:07
doing that? So really, at first, I was interested in the behavior element
23:12
of him. And although he hadn't come from a
23:16
background of trauma or harm or anything like that, what I
23:19
realized quite quickly was how I would interact with him
23:23
and kind of teach him, I suppose, or kind of find
23:27
out who he is, was very similar to how I would work with survivors
23:31
of domestic abuse when I worked frontline. So like you talked about,
23:35
in the intro about trauma-informed, that gentle kind of parenting
23:39
in a way. So I really consciously came from,
23:42
I want to raise my dog and live with my dog,
23:46
um, in a way that is non-harmful
23:50
as much as possible. Um, and so some of the skills that I was
23:54
using there, and I worked a lot with young adults as well,
23:57
really transferred into kind of working with him. And then because
24:01
I got really into the behavior, kind of canine behavior world
24:05
and kind of applied zoology and applied ethology, um, I met
24:09
behaviourists and trainers and became good friends with some people in that space.
24:13
And I realized that they didn't have a good understanding of safeguarding.
24:18
And a lot of that is because they are self-employed. They don't have an HR
24:22
team. They, they work with whole families. They go into homes.
24:26
They work in fields a lot of the time or on their own a lot
24:29
of the time. So when I first started working at the intersection,
24:33
it was in that community specifically because I had concerns
24:37
about their kind of role. And then after,
24:42
I was invited to speak at an outdoor event at the House of
24:46
Parliament on that, and I got kind
24:50
of inundated with contact. So I set up Loop to
24:54
kind of focus more in on that intersection between animal
24:58
cruelty and interpersonal violence and abuse, but obviously with a specialism in coercive
25:03
control and domestic abuse. Um, and he's my, my third family.
25:06
So I have Podrick, he's a Border Collie. He's just, well, in May he
25:10
turned 7, so he's not a puppy anymore, sadly.
25:14
He's still very cute, um, and just
25:18
like a massive part of my life. And then I have a cat as well,
25:21
Strudel. She's a tortoiseshell rescue Um,
25:25
cat and I got her in September, probably coming up
25:29
to 2 years ago now after my, my other cats sadly both passed
25:33
away. Do the 2 get on well together? Are they good friends? Pod grew up
25:37
with cats, so I was lucky that he's used to cats and
25:41
there wasn't a great long period between my last cat passing and,
25:45
and Strudel coming. So he hadn't kind of, I guess, lost his understanding.
25:50
Of cats, but it did take, um, obviously Strudel came from a rescue,
25:54
so didn't know her background with dogs, um, and how she
25:58
would be with him. So it did take, the first 3 months
26:02
was very managed. So they were never left alone together. I mean,
26:06
the first 6 to 8 weeks, it was always
26:09
through a barrier. Always. They would see each other, we'd do scent swaps,
26:13
we would do eating on other, you know, sides of the barrier.
26:16
I slowly would reduce that, uh, that management down.
26:20
But even now, I, I never leave them alone, uh,
26:24
not because I don't trust one or the other, just if anything, if I wasn't
26:28
here and say Pod accidentally walked
26:32
too fast past Rudolph, it's not even like,
26:36
you know, you just don't know how she would react and then he would react
26:39
back. So, um, it's just safer for me and in my mind to just,
26:43
when I'm not here, they don't, and I close feel between them. But they
26:48
get on fine in, in, in terms
26:52
of they've never had a negative interaction. They are very
26:56
happy to be in each other's spaces. They're not best friends,
27:00
and that's fine. In fact, it was how it was with my other cats as
27:03
well. So they don't like sleep together or interact at
27:07
all other than space sharing if they both want me at the same time kind
27:10
of thing. But they're both really good at like sharing space now and
27:14
not being scared of each other. And to me, that's how it kind of should
27:18
be. That's kind of the best you can aim for, because only a small percentage
27:22
of the time will you ever get kind of that true movie friendship
27:26
between a cat and a dog where they'll play together and they'll sleep together.
27:30
That's like not really very realistic in the real world.
27:33
So that's interesting. Yeah, it's interesting you said that because that was
27:37
what my aspiration was when I was younger— a kitten
27:41
and a puppy together that would become best friends and sleep together. Yeah, I think
27:43
it's Statistically, having both as
27:47
younglings would potentially help.
27:51
But then the thing with that is dogs go through an adolescent period and
27:55
they might decide at that point they don't really like the cat. You'll never know.
27:59
That's the thing. You'll never, uh, and I think it's just really down to the
28:02
personalities of each, that, that kind of give and take.
28:06
But yeah. Fascinating. Yeah. They kind of, kind of get on.
28:18
And with your safeguarding work then through Loop Safeguarding, is that mainly
28:22
working alongside families with cats and dogs, or is it all
28:25
types of animals and pets? So I don't work
28:29
frontline anymore. I used to work with survivors
28:33
of domestic and sexual abuse, and animals would kind of feature
28:36
within that to some extent. Knowing what I now know, I think I would
28:40
practice differently if I could go back in time. Um, but there's a lot of
28:44
learning there, isn't it, of improving practice the
28:48
more you kind of know. Yeah. Um, so, so it's Loop in the Center for
28:52
Animals' Lives and Safe Garden. We, we exist to close
28:56
loopholes in knowledge, policy, and practice across sectors and,
29:00
uh, globally to kind of create a safer
29:04
society for everyone regardless of species. So we mainly
29:08
do that through training and education. So I work with the human
29:11
people to get them to think more about the animals. I work with the
29:15
animal people to get them to think more about the humans that they're interacting with.
29:19
And, uh, so, and I, we deliver training and education to a
29:23
range of different people. So statutory organizations like social
29:27
services and policing, um, voluntary sector. So what I used
29:31
to do in terms of frontline domestic abuse support, for example, or,
29:34
or take those working with unhoused or those with drug and alcohol needs,
29:39
support needs. Um, and, and then, yeah,
29:43
we train, like I say, pet professionals or those working with animals.
29:46
So that could be vets, could be behaviorists and trainers, physiotherapists,
29:50
grooming, greeneries. So anyone who's coming into contact with kind of
29:54
an animal and a person, which is most people working
29:58
with humans and/or animals, are going to be working Um, people that interact.
30:02
Um, and then we also do consultancy work. So for example,
30:06
I've just been commissioned to, by a service, to look over their
30:10
kind of policies, um, and look at how they become more inclusive
30:14
in their practice, um, across a range of different things like risk
30:18
assessment, their mental health, um, assessment, their safety planning,
30:22
and their accommodation services, for example. Or like policing
30:26
would be, how are you including young women in work when you're supporting
30:30
or looking to prosecute, um, kind of interpersonal violence.
30:33
So I work a lot at the kind of domestic abuse course of control,
30:37
but it crosses over into other crime types. So for example,
30:41
human trafficking, um, drug trafficking, people trafficking,
30:45
gang violence, you know, it, uh, it crosses over into kind of every sphere
30:50
of crime. There's likely to be an animal abuse somewhere.
30:53
Yeah. Yeah, so, and then I do research,
30:57
so I'm doing my PhD at the moment. So in
31:01
a couple of years we'll have some data. Gosh, a lot on your plate.
31:04
A lot. Yeah, that's a big role, very varied,
31:08
probably very challenging. I think we're going to come on to that, um, yeah,
31:11
in a bit, aren't we? Um, about some of the challenges that
31:15
you're dealing with. But if for people that aren't familiar with the term animal inclusive
31:19
safeguarding, what does that mean? So it means
31:22
including animals within kind of systems and processes
31:26
that were originally human-centric or designed to be
31:30
human-centric, which is the majority of society, um, because how,
31:34
um, kind of how society, I guess,
31:37
has developed over time, um, and are not
31:41
all of us, but our kind of general priorities being related
31:45
to humans. And also understanding that if we want
31:49
to keep people safe, safe, by default we must also be looking at
31:52
how we keep animals safe. And if we're looking at how we're keeping animals safe,
31:56
we must also look at how we keep people safe, because the 2 issues are
32:00
so closely intertwined that you're never
32:04
going to be successful at doing this if you don't do that, or that if
32:08
you don't do this. And so a big part of the work that I do
32:12
is around encouraging people to think— there's a phrase
32:15
in my it's called the whole family approach, but normally
32:18
that doesn't include animals, or there's no thought around animals within
32:22
that. So either you're not doing a whole family approach or a whole
32:26
systems approach if you're not thinking about how animals feature within,
32:30
uh, within that. And then it's also about understanding
32:34
that in their own right, animals can be impacted
32:39
by violence and abuse. So seeing them as survivors
32:42
in their own right, separate from being used as a tool to harm
32:46
a person. Yes, that's true. But then we kind of reduce
32:51
them down to a tool, right? Yeah. When actually the impact on them
32:55
is significant or can be significant so that they also
32:58
deserve species-specific needs-led kind
33:03
of support that recognizes the unique impact on
33:06
them as specific specific species and also specific individuals.
33:10
So, you know, thinking about dogs and cats that we just talked about,
33:15
when I got Strudel, um, and I kind of like, you kind
33:19
of anecdotally know, you know, not every animal is the same,
33:22
but 2 cats I had before were brothers, so personality-wise
33:26
they were pretty similar. Um, and she's so
33:30
different to them in so many ways. Like,
33:32
she's cat, yes, so she does cat things, but her,
33:35
like, who she is is very different to Hector
33:40
and Hummus, who are my 2 other cats. So really what I want people
33:44
to do is not just think, you know, yes, dogs as victim survivors
33:47
need dog things to support them, but also that specific
33:52
dog will have their own way of coping different to another dog.
33:55
And that's also potentially breed-specific, but also how
33:59
they've been abused may be different as well, and therefore their needs may
34:02
be slightly different. So that includes animal-inclusive safeguarding. Really,
34:06
it's about protecting everyone from harm.
34:10
Yeah. And not being kind of only humans or
34:14
only animals. I love that actually. It's really inspiring and encouraging to
34:18
have people like you out there wanting to,
34:22
for like, push the recognition of the impact our
34:27
lives have on animals, the impact animals have on our lives. And,
34:31
and I mean, we've been, as we've been doing the podcast, I mean, I've been
34:34
learning more about like the sort of one medicine, one health, and like that
34:38
kind of holistic approach that animals do play a huge role
34:42
in our lives. They are a piece of the family puzzle. You know,
34:45
the interactions between us in many different facets is very
34:49
important. And I think me and Sasha were talking this morning about some
34:52
of the feelings that people may have around animals and not wanting to talk about
34:56
them in the way that they are a family member. And there's a little bit
34:59
of not, I don't know if bit shame or stigma. I don't know. Like,
35:01
you know, you talk about your baby, you talk about your brother, your sister.
35:04
You may not necessarily gush as much over your pet
35:08
with someone else who may, particularly if they don't have a pet.
35:11
And I love the fact that there are more professionals out there and there's
35:15
new pushing this to include them within that, a different side
35:20
of life, a sort of a more difficult sort of tragic
35:24
side of life, I think is, is wonderful to me. It's like, it's, it's what
35:28
we should all be doing as humans. And, and, and looking
35:32
at, at where we touch each other and how that world
35:36
can be improved. So yeah, love that. Thank you.
35:40
Yeah. Yeah. Thank you for sharing. And I mean, just clearly we, we, you know,
35:44
this topic can be a little bit upsetting for people, so we don't want to
35:47
go too much into the detail, but I think
35:51
just from an awareness raising perspective,
35:54
it is sort of important, I think, just to touch on how maybe
35:59
abuse can play out. Um, either, I think you talked a little
36:03
bit about abuse directly to the animal
36:06
in the home, but then also maybe as a tool where, um,
36:10
abusers are exploiting the sort of the human-animal bond.
36:14
So yeah, there's clearly two sides to the coin
36:18
there, but it'd be good just for you to sort of maybe just touch a
36:22
little bit on, on what that kind of sort of how that plays out,
36:24
what it looks like day to day.
36:35
Yeah, so it's, it's useful firstly to kind of give
36:39
a bit of a breakdown of what domestic abuse actually is because
36:42
it's very poorly understood by the general public.
36:46
So if I give you the, the definition of domestic
36:50
abuse under the law that we have in the UK, it's any incident or
36:54
pattern of incidents of violence, abuse, or conduct
36:58
which controls, coerces, or threatens between persons
37:02
aged 16 or over who are or have been intimate
37:06
partners or members of the same family,
37:09
regardless of gender or sexuality. So it's
37:13
what we call it kind of a wide-encompassing definition. So one
37:17
of the biggest myths is that it only happens between intimate partners, So as I've
37:20
just said, it covers family members. So that could be adult child
37:24
to elderly parent. It could be, um,
37:28
um, obviously adults to children. And often child abuse crosses
37:32
over with domestic abuse fairly commonly. It could be ex-partners as
37:36
well. So they've extended the definition to include any
37:40
acts, attempts to control or abuse someone after you've separated
37:44
from them. So for example, things like stalking, harassment, use of
37:48
family court. And the other biggest myth around domestic abuse is that it's physical
37:52
violence only. There are some instances of domestic abuse where no
37:56
physical violence occurs ever. What is the hallmark of domestic
38:00
abuse is coercive controlling behaviour, which is also illegal in and
38:04
of itself. And that's conduct where the
38:08
perpetrator is attempting to maintain complete power
38:11
and control over another person. So it often looks like
38:15
isolating them from friends, family, or the workplace, or studying.
38:20
It can look like controlling what they wear,
38:23
see, who they see, what they do, what they read,
38:27
when they can use the bathroom sometimes, you know. So, and it's
38:31
about lowering someone's self-esteem. So there's a lot of psychological and emotional
38:35
abuse that goes into domestic abuse. And the idea there is to
38:39
keep the person dependent, on the perpetrator,
38:42
which is often why you see economic abuse coming in. So controlling
38:46
the money, controlling whether the person can work, or,
38:50
you know, changing their hours, you know, all these kinds of things. Often you'll see
38:53
children being weaponized there. So someone may deliberately
38:57
kind of impregnate someone multiple times so they can't go back to work,
39:01
or it inhibits their ability to work as much, because they're
39:05
then mainly the sole caregivers, because the perpetrators
39:08
in domestic abuse often are not involved in kind of child raising.
39:13
So, um, that's kind of an overview of what domestic
39:17
abuse is, just a myth bust first of all. That,
39:20
and then how animals can be used. So again,
39:24
it's as varied as anything can be. So perpetrators
39:28
will not— no 2 perpetrators are the same in how they
39:31
choose to abuse. There are some kind of key tactics
39:35
that they'll use, which I've kind of just talked about, but they might not do
39:38
all of them. So those are just examples. And it's the same with how they
39:41
may, may use animals. And again, some may and some may not. So,
39:45
but if they do use animals, it could be physical violence.
39:48
So that could be threatening to physically harm. So one of the things,
39:52
the biggest, one of the biggest things that they will do is they'll threaten
39:56
to harm your child, your animal, your friend, your family member to
40:01
get you to comply with what they want you to do. And that's an extremely
40:04
effective tactic, especially for those of us who have an animal.
40:08
You know, they don't have to physically harm your animal. They just have to say
40:11
they're going to, for you to kind of fall in line.
40:15
And then if they did go on to physically harm, obviously that crosses a range
40:20
of different types of physical harm up to sadly kind of killing the
40:23
animal. But it could also look like neglect, which obviously does link to physical
40:28
kind of abuse in terms of the impact, the physical impacts of neglect. So that
40:32
could be, does the animal have access to fresh food and water? Do they
40:36
let the victim-survivor clean out the enclosures, or access
40:41
to veterinary treatment? Do they allow them to access, to go to the vet,
40:43
or flea and worm treatment? So neglect is often,
40:48
in fact, when you look at children within domestic abuse settings, child neglect
40:52
is the biggest kind of typology
40:56
of abuse or harm. Within that setting rather than direct
41:00
physical violence. There's lots of neglect that goes on.
41:03
And then obviously emotionally harming the animal. So that could be,
41:07
and that could be directed at the animal or directed towards the
41:11
human. So that could be they use tone or body language
41:14
that emotionally frightens or harms the
41:18
animal in some way. They might threaten to call RSPCA and
41:22
report the victim survivor for animal cruelty. That's a really common one they'll
41:26
do with children as well. So they'll, they'll threaten to call social services and report
41:30
the victim survivor for child abuse. They may claim
41:34
ownership of the animal, which links with economic abuse. If they
41:39
do end up in a kind of custody disagreement around the animal,
41:42
ownership of the animal, that may mean they have to use a small claims court,
41:45
which you have to pay to access those kind of services. And they
41:50
might prevent which is quite a common one. So the human-animal
41:54
bond is such a strong source of
41:57
comfort and love and non-judgment. And perpetrators
42:01
don't like victims, survivors to have access to that, right?
42:05
So they may not allow the person to interact with their
42:09
animal or be in the same room as their animal. And that is going to
42:12
emotionally harm both the human and the animal. So the duality of the
42:16
impact. Act, um, is there. And again, that's what we recognize a
42:20
lot. And it can look like things like selling or rehoming or abandoning
42:24
the animal, or blaming the animal for the reasons
42:27
why they're treating them that way. So for example,
42:32
they might leave the, say, the dog alone for extended
42:36
periods of time in the house. The dog then rips up a cushion or something
42:40
like that, and Which is understandable because they're frustrated.
42:44
They probably haven't been walked. They may be in pain.
42:47
They may have not been fed enough. So they're expressing
42:50
their internal emotion in a, in a practical way.
42:54
And that they might get physically harmed as
42:58
a result of them doing that natural behavior.
43:02
So that's an example, uh, kind of emotionally.
43:06
We've touched on economics that again, like maybe are they allowed to
43:10
get pet insurance, or does the person cancel the pet insurance without
43:14
them knowing? Or, uh, as we talk about paying for, say, veterinary treatment
43:18
or flea and worm prevention or things like that, paying for
43:22
food, toys, bedding, accessing behavioral training support
43:27
classes. So part of their
43:31
economical financial abuse may include elements of the animal.
43:34
And then the last one I normally talk about is stalking behaviors. So stalking
43:38
is obviously a pattern of behavior where someone will, um,
43:42
with the aim of it, of causing fear or distress.
43:45
So many people, when they think about stalking, might think about someone, you know,
43:49
watching through a window or following someone. And absolutely,
43:52
that can be a form of stalking. Nowadays, a lot of it is done digitally.
43:57
A lot of stalkers now don't even have to be in the same country as
44:01
the person they're stalking to cause extreme kind of distress.
44:05
And harm, which impacts that person's daily kind of life.
44:09
Um, but where animals may come into stalking is monitoring.
44:13
So they might time how long someone's out for a dog walk,
44:16
or they might say, you've only got 20 minutes, 10 minutes to go out with
44:20
the dog, you have to be back by this time. They might use the pet
44:24
GPS trackers, so that are kind of marketed as if your dog
44:28
was to get lost or stolen, you can kind of or your camera,
44:31
you know, track where they are, they can be repurposed by perpetrators
44:35
to go, okay, you know, this is the route I expect you to take.
44:39
If you don't take it, I'll know. Or they may not even,
44:42
the other person may not even know that they're watching or tracking where
44:46
they are either. And because they're quite small, you can sometimes hide them,
44:49
and the person may not even know that they've got a pet tracker
44:53
on them. They might not even put the pet tracker on them.
44:57
On the animal. Um, so think about dogs. If you're someone like me
45:00
who, I wear a massive coat when I go dog walking with bits, many pockets
45:05
full of dog stuff. I, I have a bag. They could hide that
45:09
anywhere and I probably wouldn't know. So they'll,
45:13
that's a potential way of stalking using kind of the GPS.
45:17
If they know which vet you use, they might stake out the vets,
45:21
uh, or the grooming salon or the dog training classes.
45:24
If you go to class, mask at 10 AM on a Saturday every week,
45:28
then they'll know kind of where you are. So there's, so it's kind
45:32
of just some examples of kind of the breadth and depth of the
45:36
ways in which animals can be used. And like you say,
45:40
Maya, like when I've heard these examples before,
45:44
because some of them I'm aware of through news and TV
45:48
and stuff, or even like films, you see the impact on the
45:52
human actually. And you haven't had
45:56
chance to think about the connection and the impact on the animal actually
46:00
at the end of it. And like, you know, you're talking about, so yeah,
46:05
the person says you can only go out for 20 minutes. The dog is then
46:08
affected by either a shorter walk or no walks or the same walk
46:12
that may not give them the stimulation they need. And not only
46:16
is the person being kind of controlled, I hadn't didn't
46:20
until you talking through it now and me kind of processing, thought about the response
46:24
then that the animal is, is feeling as well.
46:28
Interesting. And like, we, we're talking about like,
46:32
uh, how the dogs and how animals are impacted and the sort
46:36
of that sort of high stress, chaotic kind of abusive
46:40
environment that they're, they're exposed to. What are
46:44
like some, some of the common sort of trauma responses that animals will express?
46:48
Like you said earlier, like biting the, chewing the
46:52
sofa, and then it's seen as bad behaviour. So like for some pet professionals,
46:56
I know they will look at
47:00
if there's illness and take them to the, say, you know, recommend going to the
47:03
vet, but may have not thought about these other things. So what are some of
47:06
the, what are some of the things around that you could talk to us about?
47:10
Well, some of the ways in which animals and dogs or mammals specifically are
47:15
impacted by abuse actually is quite similar.
47:18
So, um, you know, we all, us and dogs and
47:22
cats, for example, have similar nervous systems, similar brain
47:26
structures. So how we process trauma is similar
47:31
to some extent. So thinking about kind of hypervigilance,
47:34
it's a very, very common one working with survivors.
47:38
Um, there is for like walking on eggshells. They always feel
47:42
like, um, they have to be on high alert. You know, their cortisol
47:46
levels are higher, they're fearful generally, which is chronic stress.
47:50
And, and that impacts not just our behaviour, but our physical health.
47:53
So, um, some of the things we might see in dogs in terms of physical
47:57
signs of stress or injury. So obviously broken
48:01
bones and bruises and cuts, they're the kind of typical ones people
48:05
think about. But actually, you know, So disrupted
48:09
sleep is a massive one for both humans and animals
48:13
impacted by trauma, and getting kind of restful sleep
48:17
is important. And there has been some research around like nightmares and dogs
48:21
specifically, and it's obviously really hard because they can't tell us, I'm definitely having
48:25
a nightmare. Yeah, but we, we've given their similarity
48:30
to other mammals, including humans, we assume potentially they have
48:34
nightmares. So, and that's going to impact your behaviour. So all of us
48:38
at some point, Nat, you've just said you're outlasted. So when you're
48:42
tired, your behaviour is impacted. We're more likely maybe
48:47
to be snappy. So the dog may have
48:51
that kind of behavioural impact of not having enough rest or sleep.
48:56
They might have chronic pain, which we know now in
49:01
a high percentage of behaviour cases coming to you for behavioural support
49:05
is there's pain underneath there somewhere. And that could be
49:09
an, you know, an ill-healed
49:12
injury, past injury from an abuse incident.
49:16
It could be that they've not been able to go to the vet. So they
49:19
might have, say, this is just all speculative, but say they've not been able
49:24
to go to the vet, then they're, say, reactive or aggressive or doing doing behavioural
49:27
things which is minimised down or as bad behaviour, like you said, but actually
49:31
there might be a reason underneath. Um, things like skin issues,
49:36
tummy problems, all can relate to stress.
49:39
And then in terms of behaviour, it could be things like hyper-attachment
49:44
to the caregiver, so the victim-survivor, so following them around,
49:48
distress when left alone, so going really into separation anxiety.
49:52
It could be that they avoid places or people
49:56
or situations. So we think that dog,
50:00
I'm talking dogs specifically, have triggers. So human beings definitely
50:04
have triggers. So some of the survivors I worked with, they might have fear
50:08
of, or, you know, a certain smell makes them have flashbacks
50:12
or a certain sound reminds them of what's happening.
50:15
And one of the questions in my PhD research is
50:18
going to ask about about, do you notice anything triggering your
50:22
animal? So that could be people that look like
50:26
the perpetrator. So if the perpetrator wore glasses, do they seem to avoid or have
50:30
a stress response to people with glasses? Did that— did the perpetrator
50:34
abuse the dog when they were drunk? So maybe alcohol,
50:38
smelling alcohol triggers a behaviour in the dog. If you're someone
50:42
that talks with your hands, does the dog flinch or run away? And that might
50:46
be because they They are used to raising hands being for
50:50
something else. So there's lots of different kind of ways in which the behavior—
50:54
I put touch sensitivity. So, um, obviously again, if there's pain
50:58
involved, but also they might just have an extremely fearful response
51:02
to being touched in certain areas if they're, you know, if there's a
51:06
previous injury. Social withdrawal. So they might, you know,
51:09
they might not have as a happy demeanor. And they
51:13
might not look to socialize as much with people or
51:17
animals. And sometimes it can be like anticipatory. Mm-hmm.
51:21
And that happens with children as well. You know, you are not a safe person,
51:25
or you don't look like a safe person, or I don't know you, so anticipate
51:29
that you may harm me, and therefore I'm going to do X, Y, and Z
51:31
behaviors, which could be aggression, reactivity to say really
51:35
clearly, you know, don't come near me. Stay away.
51:39
I don't want you in my space, for example.
51:52
Oh, just, I mean, just hearing some of this, I mean, it's, yeah, it's quite
51:56
profound, isn't it? Around what, what humans and animals experience
52:00
and how that does then show up. And I'm very conscious there
52:04
is a lot of trauma-informed support, trauma-informed therapies
52:08
for humans out there, but does anything exist
52:12
to help pets' recovery? I'm just thinking if someone's adopted
52:17
an animal and who has been in this situation and,
52:21
you know, there are some sort of difficulties there, do you think, is there stuff?
52:24
Do you think there is enough? Do you think there could be more? If there
52:27
is stuff, where can people go to kind of get trauma-informed
52:31
support for their pets, 'cause it's not something I've heard of, but obviously very
52:34
conscious of it in humans. And there's definitely a move
52:38
towards that more now with different therapies and
52:41
different kind of recoveries options available for humans. But what about
52:45
pets? Yeah, so I don't think anything's really been necessarily
52:50
marketed in that way. We are seeing a shift
52:54
in dog behaviorists and trainers or animal behaviorists
53:00
more generally towards kind of trauma-informed. So lots of the animal world
53:04
tends to follow the human kind of shifts, but the problem we have
53:08
in terms of the dog world is that we still have a large majority of
53:11
people using aversive training methods. So what I've
53:15
seen, because I'm mainly, I'm in the positive spaces, I've seen those
53:18
particular behaviorists and trainers learning and looking at understanding
53:23
trauma-informed practice a bit more. I think some of the things that can be
53:28
already being kind of pitched as good
53:32
for dogs generally as a species can be
53:36
used with abused animals. So I'm thinking about ACE free
53:40
work. So Sarah Fisher, who's sadly passed now, but still down
53:44
at Tilly Farm, um, the kind of free work. So lots of,
53:48
uh, giving animals choice space and agency and freedom
53:52
to move at their own pace. And in terms of exhibiting
53:56
natural behaviours, so for dogs, sniffing, licking,
53:58
chewing emotionally regulates them. For cats, obviously things like scratching
54:03
is really central to their wellbeing, as well as having
54:06
safe places up high and where they can hide.
54:10
So I think some of the trauma-informed stuff comes from what we already know
54:14
is best practice with animals. Animals. But in terms
54:18
of specifically to, um, kind of animals
54:21
coming out of chronically traumatic or long-term
54:25
kind of stressful environments, I think there could be a lot more out there.
54:29
So one of the projects we're running, we're piloting in October,
54:33
is called the Pause Pact project, and that is for survivors
54:37
who have left the perpetrator but they are remained with
54:41
their animals. So some people who flee necessarily they have to separate. So they might
54:45
have to put that animal into fostering, or they might have to
54:48
rehome that animal, or, you know, a friend or family may have that animal with
54:52
the hope of reunification down the line. But a lot of survivors,
54:55
you know, they remain with their animal either in their home
54:59
or they move to a different place, but they remain with their animal. And I
55:02
really saw there was a gap for what, what do
55:07
these animals get that can help them
55:11
Um, not just cope themselves post-trauma, but try and help reconnect with their human
55:15
survivor and strengthen that bond that's already there that may have been fractured
55:20
intentionally or unintentionally by the perpetrator. So within the PAWS PAPS are
55:25
kind of physical products. So there's pet remedy
55:28
products in there, which you're probably familiar in terms of the pheromones,
55:32
um, natural scenting behaviors to regulate emotions
55:36
and create a calming environment. So that was donated by Pet Remedy.
55:40
And we've got licky mats in there. So we're piloting the dog version first,
55:44
and then we're hopefully going to have a cat version, a small furry version,
55:48
a horse version, and then we'll see how far we can get.
55:52
Um, because there will be obviously differences in some of the things. And so
55:56
there's more products, physical products for the animal, and then there are kind of
56:00
some helpful guides for the human victim survivors. So some
56:04
information on the impact of trauma on animals, because we
56:08
call that kind of psychoeducation, so boosting their understanding of why their animal might
56:12
be acting the way they are. Um, but also information
56:15
about food banks, which you talked about earlier, Sasha. So most people
56:19
who leave domestic abuse often leave less
56:23
financially stable than when they entered that relationship due to perpetrator's behaviour.
56:27
So information about food banks, there's information around,
56:31
you know, kids around dogs. They also donated a kind of coloring
56:34
book for children of domestic abuse to learn more about dog behavior,
56:39
um, um, you know, because of the potential for aggression
56:43
or bite risk there just from a stress perspective. So that's one
56:48
kind of service that we're hoping to plug a gap.
56:52
So as I said, we're piloting And then if that's successful,
56:55
hopefully we'll get funding to roll it out more generally.
56:58
And obviously then create some more species-specific ones.
57:02
Yeah. Yeah. Please do keep us informed on how that pilot's going.
57:06
It sounds really, really useful and definitely needed. We're hoping that
57:10
people, general public, will be able to like sponsor a pack. So if you are
57:13
someone that say you can sponsor a dog one or a cat one, or if
57:17
you don't wanna do a whole bag, we can could, okay, I want to buy
57:20
a looking map, which will go in there. So there'll be lots of different options
57:23
on how to support the project post-pilot. So I can definitely
57:27
keep you kind of in the loop with that. Yeah, please do.
57:31
Because I did design a dog-focused colouring book, which I had printed,
57:35
and I'd be happy to donate a load of copies of that. So colouring
57:40
books, if you want them, you're more than welcome to have some.
57:43
So that'd be excellent. Yeah. I mean, that sounds such a worthwhile
57:47
project and, you know, on the surface sounds actually quite simple, just putting together
57:51
some little bits and bobs here and there, but make a massive impact.
57:55
And like that sort of just sort of subtle learning to
57:59
the people, the humans around them that are dealing with the same situation
58:03
or kind of trying to reconnect. So well done. That's so amazing.
58:07
And, and like moving on to sort of like, it's a bit of a bigger
58:11
pie in the sky picture. I don't know, but like, where would
58:15
you like to see sort of animal welfare develop, like in your, in your your
58:19
sort of sector, the way you're working, what's your dream for the future for our
58:22
companion animals? Yeah, I think one of
58:27
the big— one of our big focuses around, you know, currently animals,
58:31
pets are seen as property still under the law,
58:35
and that creates massive issues for, uh,
58:38
kind of, and limitations on safeguarding processes,
58:42
especially when it comes down kind of ownership and how you own
58:46
an animal. And really, an animal is not the same as a phone
58:50
or a table or a book, you know. It's— it, it should
58:54
be— animal cruelty should be seen as, um,
58:57
you know, a significant violent act or kind of abusive act
59:01
or harmful act, and it should be recognized as animals
59:05
needing that support in, in their own right. So for
59:09
me, that was one of the biggest ones that we need to start changing
59:13
the kind of narrative. And then that will hopefully help cascade down into frontline
59:17
responses. So for example, in policing,
59:21
a lot of the time animal cruelty is actually recorded as criminal
59:25
damage because again, animals are property.
59:28
So when we try and find statistics, we can find like,
59:31
say, criminal damage, but that's like breaking a
59:35
window or smashing up your living room or You know, so it doesn't tell
59:38
us, it doesn't always break down animal cruelty within
59:42
that kind of wider criminal damage. So hopefully we were able to separate
59:45
that out, that would make— Have you, have you got like
59:50
networks and people on board with that? Are you like, are you, do you feel
59:54
like you're making progress? Because that would be a great thing to get involved with.
59:57
Like, that would be something I think I can see how that would open
1:00:01
so many opportunities and doors for like, say, legal changes and
1:00:05
different record keeping to learn more about what's actually happening and get better
1:00:09
rights for, um, our animals as well?
1:00:12
Have you— is there like a movement happening? Can you see
1:00:15
that? Yeah, so there's a campaign, uh, going on at the moment.
1:00:19
I can't remember his name, but he,
1:00:22
uh, he started a petition to get it heard
1:00:26
at— in the House of Parliament, because that's the first stage to changing anything,
1:00:29
is you have to public opinion, public signatures,
1:00:33
then it goes for debate. And then hopefully if,
1:00:36
if passed, it goes on and on to hopefully then change the legislation.
1:00:40
So I can certainly give that link,
1:00:44
you know, after the episode, if you want to pop it in the description.
1:00:47
Separate from that, obviously some of the training education
1:00:51
we do is, is, is shifting practice already.
1:00:56
So we deliver training to policing, although they can't change
1:00:59
their systems easily without, uh, you know,
1:01:02
the, the go-ahead from a person way above, above the people I'm
1:01:06
speaking to. But in terms of kind of how they're taking notes,
1:01:11
where they're keeping notes, there is a shift,
1:01:13
hopefully seeing a small kind of shift towards that
1:01:18
recognition. What pains me somewhat is I have
1:01:22
the most success when I pin it with human needs.
1:01:25
Which I just sometimes feel we reduce
1:01:30
animals down to what they can do for us or what they mean to us
1:01:34
rather than beings in their own right. So a
1:01:38
lot of it is, if you spot signs of animal cruelty,
1:01:41
we can prevent further harm to people. You know, that's the
1:01:45
kind of— and that is important, obviously, and I care about that deeply, but that's
1:01:49
the strategy at the moment that we're having to go down to get people involved.
1:01:53
Yeah, I understand. Yeah, yeah, I know.
1:01:57
Yeah, that's, I think, where I— you've got, you've got to sort of play the
1:02:00
game a little bit at some point before you can kind
1:02:04
of shift the thinking to actually helping people to realize. And I think
1:02:08
that's kind of, Sasha, we were talking about the podcast about kind of, you know,
1:02:11
we want to sort of, we want to encourage that human-animal bond and help people
1:02:15
understand that animals deserve our love and our respect
1:02:19
as their beings, as you said, and they are people,
1:02:23
they are other things on this planet with us that bring a lot of,
1:02:26
add a lot of addition to our lives, but also we to them.
1:02:30
And they deserve much more from us as a human being.
1:02:33
Yeah. I, I understand where you're coming from, but I really like what you said
1:02:37
about that and that it does pain you to have to kind of think about
1:02:40
it that way. It's really interesting as well, because sorry, Sasha, I knew you were
1:02:44
going to come in. You were talking about the systems of recording,
1:02:47
because I've had a bit of a beef about some social media and
1:02:51
being able to flag issues that I'm seeing around animals on there,
1:02:54
rightly or wrongly, you know, I may be making a judgment,
1:02:58
but their systems don't allow you to flag
1:03:01
animal cruelty or concerns about animals
1:03:05
unless it's under some of the categories you mentioned before,
1:03:09
which doesn't help a user flag their
1:03:13
concerns because they don't know what category to look for. They're not looking for criminal
1:03:16
damage, for example. And I'm, I'm quite passionate about
1:03:19
trying to push that a little bit and, and help the
1:03:23
recording flagging system not be a barrier to general people.
1:03:28
So it kind of plays hand in hand actually. Yeah. I mean, that's a
1:03:32
really interesting point because we in the UK now we have the Online Safety Act,
1:03:36
which passed, um,
1:03:39
a year, at least a year ago. Um, and they included
1:03:44
kind of animals within that Online Safety Act and around
1:03:48
preventing mainly children and young adults from seeing,
1:03:51
viewing kind of animal cruelty
1:03:55
imagery. But what I find really interesting is that I'm not sure how
1:03:59
they classified animal cruelty in that because it
1:04:03
can— animal cruelty can be really obvious. So like beating a dog.
1:04:07
But I see videos all the time of a very pervasive training
1:04:11
methods, which I would say I don't want children to be seeing
1:04:15
that. I don't even want to be seeing that. Yes. And that is harm.
1:04:18
That's, that's animal abuse in my opinion. Um,
1:04:22
I need you to look at kind of what animal abuse
1:04:25
is. I think it would, would meet that definition, but that seems to also be
1:04:29
permissible. Yeah. Yeah. So I think it's
1:04:33
a really interesting point and a big change that needs to happen for Yeah.
1:04:38
Sasha, you were gonna say something? No, I was just gonna come in and say,
1:04:42
I think, you know, in terms of shifting the dial on this,
1:04:45
it's probably not people with pets and animal
1:04:48
lovers that we need to convince. It's the people that don't have
1:04:52
them and don't understand often the bond,
1:04:55
but also the importance, the role that animals play
1:04:59
and yeah, like how they are viewed and judged. I know I have some family
1:05:03
members who have very old-fashioned views about out ways to take care of a dog,
1:05:06
which are very different to mine, you know, as treating Betty
1:05:10
as a key part of the family. So it's, yeah, how you do
1:05:14
that. But it, you know, it sounds, um, Mae, you're doing some great work in
1:05:17
kind of educating some of the organisations that you work
1:05:20
alongside, like the police and social services and things like that. So I just
1:05:24
want to say, you know, keep up the amazing work that you're doing.
1:05:28
It's such a, yeah, it's so needed, so worthwhile,
1:05:31
and also just, you know, really interesting to hear you today talking about some
1:05:35
of the things that you're researching and, and,
1:05:38
you know, the ways you're supporting people. Yeah, I think unless—
1:05:43
I think the only thing was to ask, like, because people
1:05:47
talk about this, like, the compassion fatigue, like, how, how do you look after
1:05:51
yourself? Because your subject matter is really heavy and probably
1:05:55
quite traumatic at a lot of times, like What do you do to
1:05:59
switch off and look after yourself?
1:06:02
Yeah, it's a good question. I, I don't pretend to be an expert at
1:06:06
that, doing that well. I think, you know, my own relationship
1:06:11
with my, with my animals plays like a daily role
1:06:16
in, or even like an hourly, minute, minute role,
1:06:19
you know, because I can be doing something really intense on,
1:06:23
on the laptop And Strider will come. She often sleeps or hangs
1:06:27
out here. And you know, just that presence of her is,
1:06:31
is, is kind of calming. And then obviously, um, being outside with,
1:06:35
with Pod is great. I've recently got into kind of lake
1:06:39
swimming. So there's a, um, a lake near me, which is, it's like a proper
1:06:43
swimming one. It's not just a random, random one.
1:06:47
Uh, but like swimming outside has just done something for me as well. It's like
1:06:51
different. Different to that kind of pool sterile type. I love that.
1:06:54
But I, I will say I'd mainly float in the lake.
1:06:59
If you're someone that's into swimming,
1:07:01
obviously, you know, yeah, pool is probably great for that. But yeah, the lake is
1:07:05
mainly just— and then, and then just reading.
1:07:09
And, you know, I had written down when you asked this question before, I think
1:07:14
having hope is such a powerful motivator.
1:07:19
Um, since I set up— so we set up Loop in 2023,
1:07:23
but I've been working in the sector like 11 or 12 years
1:07:27
now in a variety of different roles. And I
1:07:30
think specifically in the last couple of years, we have seen shifts.
1:07:36
Great. What we're seeing, kind of campaigns for new laws,
1:07:39
which are probably all likely to go through. We've seen changes
1:07:43
in kind of statutory guidance, you know, the people coming
1:07:46
on my training from around the world, you know, we had, we've had
1:07:51
Australians, we've had people from Denmark. It's kind of random,
1:07:54
but yeah, Denmark police came. And I
1:07:58
think every time you see even a slight change,
1:08:01
it's re-energizing because you can see that
1:08:05
it is working. It's not just me, it's a collective effort as,
1:08:09
you know, our colleagues across sectors and
1:08:13
countries, all of us working together. And I
1:08:17
really do feel hopeful that we'll see more change
1:08:21
sooner rather than later. It won't be perfect,
1:08:24
but we'll get there. But it's a start. Yeah.
1:08:27
It's a start. And hopefully you can come back in time to come
1:08:31
and we can talk about those changes that you've seen.
1:08:34
Let's, let's hope so. Right. Well, thank you
1:08:38
so much, Maya, for coming on. Thank you so much for sharing your insights and
1:08:41
your expertise with us and also telling us about your lovely little fur
1:08:45
family as well. It's been a real pleasure. So thank you so much
1:08:49
and have a great day. Thank you. Thank you for having me. Thank you.
1:08:51
Bye. Take care.