Latest / North Meets South Web Podcast / Fast Laravel with Jason McCreary

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Fast Laravel with Jason McCreary · North Meets South Web Podcast

• 0:00
  -Hey, I'm Michael Dyrynda. -And I'm Jake Bennett.
• 0:02
  -And I'm JMac. -And welcome to episode 194 of the North
• 0:07
  Meet South Web Podcast. [upbeat music] Ah, this is what happens when we don't plan.
• 0:12
  Yep, 194 is the episode number. We've got our good friend, Mr. Jason McCreary, JMac,
• 0:19
  with us on the air. JMac, tell the people hi.
• 0:21
  -Hello. -Welcome. Nice to have you here.
• 0:23
  Yay, there we go. Yeah, so we've been trying to get Jason, Jason on the show for
• 0:27
  a couple weeks. Um, we talk about Jason, I feel like, on a pretty regular basis.
• 0:33
  -I- -Michael, would you agree? I feel like
• 0:35
  JMac's name is said at least every other podcast.
• 0:37
  -Yeah. Well- -So...
• 0:38
  Every other podcast, every other, like, we, between this podcast and the, and the
• 0:42
  Laravel News one, he gets a, he gets
• 0:44
  a lot of airtime, I think.
• 0:47
  I appreciate it. Well, I'm, I'm glad to actually be on air. Sorry, I'm old now.
• 0:52
  -[laughs] -I, I can't stay up much past 10:00
• 0:54
  -anymore. -I know. You messaged me last week, and
• 0:55
  -you're like, "So can we- -No worries
• 0:56
  ... can we record?" I said, "We've been trying to organize this for about six
• 1:00
  weeks now, and you've always been the one to bail." But you've had good reason for
• 1:03
  -it, between, you know- -Yeah
• 1:04
  -... young kids that don't sleep- -You know, I-
• 1:06
  -... and sickness and- -I apologize
• 1:07
  -Yeah, sickness -... that's all right.
• 1:10
  Yeah, I think I was, I think the first night the lines got crossed, and then I
• 1:13
  think the second time, yeah, it was just, like, we were getting some of the daycare
• 1:17
  -crud. -Mm-hmm.
• 1:18
  Yeah.
• 1:19
  That's how it is, you know. You get the kids, and then everybody bring, they bring
• 1:21
  home all their fun sicknesses, and we get to enjoy the, uh, benefits of stronger
• 1:26
  -immune systems, I suppose. I don't know. -The climb.
• 1:28
  -That's the- -That's the climb
• 1:28
  ... that's the only way to spin that one that I can f- yep, exactly.
• 1:32
  -Yeah. -Silver lining, if you will.
• 1:33
  -Excellent. -Uh, well, the astute observer will notice
• 1:37
  that I am actually not in my typical location. Uh, as Andy Hinkle would say,
• 1:41
  the f- the, uh, infamous, uh, what is it? What do they call that? Like, the white
• 1:46
  -slat- -Shiplap?
• 1:46
  ... walls. What's that called? I'm losing my mind.
• 1:49
  Shiplap. He's like, "The infamous shiplap wall." He came to my house-
• 1:53
  -[laughs] -... you know, not too long ago, and was
• 1:54
  like, "Oh, the shiplap wall." I'm not in front of the shiplap wall today. I am on
• 1:58
  the road. I am traveling in Wisconsin. Um, Jason says I am becoming a tall Eric
• 2:04
  -Barnes- -[laughs]
• 2:05
  -... because I'm on the road- -Super tall
• 2:06
  ... for a golf trip for the, for the company. Yeah, so, um, anyway, that's
• 2:10
  where I'm at, and so I brought my equipment. I, I'm the rare, you know, I
• 2:14
  -hardly ever remember my equipment- -Mm
• 2:16
  ... when I'm at home, and I somehow remembered to bring it on the road with
• 2:18
  me. So Michael, just before we pressed the record button, you said you were gonna
• 2:21
  -ask me something. What was the question? -I was gonna ask you something, 'cause you
• 2:23
  said you're here, you're not working. Like, is this time off work, or is this
• 2:27
  work time?
• 2:28
  -This is work time. So this is like- -Right
• 2:30
  ... we are here for visiting a client. So I'm sort of doing some work in the
• 2:34
  evenings and things like that, but during the day, like tomorrow, we have, like, a
• 2:37
  -tee time at 9:45. -Okay.
• 2:39
  We'll be golfing for half the day. We've got a little, like, um, event tomorrow
• 2:42
  night for the, for the golf outing that we're here for. So yeah.
• 2:45
  -Mm-hmm. -It's time, I'm on the clock, but I'm
• 2:47
  getting to have fun while I'm on the clock, so it's great.
• 2:49
  Okay. Well, that's all, that's all good then. I, I just,
• 2:53
  'cause you were, you know, you had Memorial Day weekend last week, so you
• 2:55
  were away for that, and then a few weeks before that-
• 2:57
  -That's right -... you were away somewhere else. Like, I
• 2:58
  feel like you take a lot of vacation time, and I'm just trying to figure out-
• 3:03
  -Oh, no -... how much vacation time you have, and
• 3:05
  how much of this is just loosey-goosey Jake's been at the same company for 15
• 3:09
  -years, so he just- -[laughs]
• 3:11
  -... ticks off whenever he feels like. -Oh. Well, okay, so let me put, let me put
• 3:14
  this in perspective though, right? So I was up until 2:00 AM doing a deployment
• 3:17
  -last night, because it's- -Mm
• 3:19
  ... you know. So, I, I mean, it all sort of evens out, doesn't it? I mean, like,
• 3:23
  -the- -Yeah
• 3:23
  ... the application that I was working on couldn't be down during regular hours, so
• 3:27
  you're up late doing stuff. So it's like,
• 3:29
  I, I get what you're saying. Um, it was Memorial Day, so that was not PTO. That
• 3:33
  was just a normal sort of, like, you know, we have the day off sort of thing. But
• 3:37
  the summers are a bit different. I feel like I don't take much time off at all
• 3:40
  -during the regular year. -Mm-hmm.
• 3:41
  But the summertime, like, is when I get all my vacation in. So JMac-
• 3:46
  -Yeah -... doesn't necessarily have this problem,
• 3:48
  because JMac is a business owner, and is, uh, what I would rank as unemployable.
• 3:54
  He's not unemployable. I think you told me that one time, Jason. You were like,
• 3:57
  "Yeah, I could never go back to a normal job again."
• 4:00
  I think, I think to Dyrynda's point, I couldn't go to a job that I was like, "Can
• 4:05
  -I take next Friday off, please?" -[laughs]
• 4:08
  I just don't think I could do that.
• 4:10
  Um.
• 4:11
  You know, the, the lucky thing for you is that you would get, like, a, a millennial
• 4:15
  as a boss these days. So someone that is younger than you would be-
• 4:18
  -Yeah -... your boss, and most of them don't
• 4:19
  -care. -Which I don't know if I could take that
• 4:20
  -either, in fairness. -They're like, "Sure, take whatever time
• 4:21
  -you need." No. -Yeah.
• 4:23
  -No. Well, I- -Yeah
• 4:24
  ... my current head of engineering,
• 4:26
  when he was,
• 4:27
  he was working somewhere else, and I'd worked with him years ago, and we were
• 4:31
  both engineers on the same team. And so we went our separate ways and did our own
• 4:35
  things for a few years, and he said, "Have you got any jobs where you are at the, at
• 4:38
  the moment?" And I was like, "Well,
• 4:39
  I don't think we're looking specifically at the moment, but I'll put you in contact
• 4:42
  with, with the right people, and you can have a chat, and if something comes to
• 4:45
  that, you know, something can come of that." And
• 4:48
  he, um, he's a, he's a few years younger than me, and he came to my daughter's
• 4:53
  second birthday, and we were just talking, you know, how did it go. He's like, "Oh,
• 4:55
  I've had some conversations, but they're not really sure," you know. And then the
• 4:59
  following Monday,
• 5:01
  the people that he had conversations with, they're like,
• 5:03
  "So Sam's starting, and, uh, he's gonna come on board as head of engineering." I
• 5:06
  was like, "Whoa, whoa, whoa, pump the brakes. Did I just get my mate a job as my
• 5:10
  -own boss? What is happening?" -[laughs] So is that what happened? You got
• 5:15
  -him a job as your boss? -Yeah, yeah. So yeah, he's-
• 5:17
  -Okay. Wow -... yeah, so he's, he's head of
• 5:18
  engineering. He's been at, at the company with me for probably three-ish years now.
• 5:23
  -Oh, wow. -Maybe coming up four.
• 5:25
  -And you, and you- -Yeah
• 5:25
  ... and you told him, "You're gonna sign my referral check, buddy."
• 5:28
  -[laughs] -Yeah, right. [laughs]
• 5:29
  For your position.
• 5:30
  -There are, there are two points, though- -Yeah, we-
• 5:32
  ... on, on that. The,
• 5:34
  to, to
• 5:35
  the point of more vacation time in the summer-
• 5:39
  -Mm-hmm -... uh, I actually, I do see that in
• 5:41
  Shift. It is funny. May and December are my, my lowest usage months by far.
• 5:48
  -Mm. -Uh, and I think-
• 5:49
  -Mm -... as probably being 60% US market,
• 5:52
  like-You know,
• 5:54
  as Jake's saying, everyone's off in May. You're off school. You're taking your
• 5:58
  -first- -Yeah. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm
• 5:58
  ... of your summer vacations. You know, Christmas, same thing. You're two weeks
• 6:01
  -off probably- -That's right
• 6:02
  ... around Christmas time in the US typically,
• 6:05
  uh, your kids or something. So I, I definitely see seasonality, low
• 6:09
  seasonality for Shift. So I'm kind of on the, while I can take a vacation, I
• 6:13
  suppose, whenever I want,
• 6:15
  uh, you know, the business is affected actually by other people taking vacation,
• 6:20
  -right? -Yeah.
• 6:20
  -They're not in the office- -Mm-hmm
• 6:21
  -... running shifts- -That's a good point
• 6:22
  ... upgrading their apps.
• 6:24
  Yeah, which sort of... I'm gonna loop back to this because
• 6:28
  I, I tend to assume that people know who you are because you've been in the
• 6:31
  community for such a long time. Uh, take this opportunity to say thank you for all
• 6:34
  you've done for the Laravel community, but for those people who have not yet met you
• 6:39
  or have not been to a Laracon where they've, they've been able to hear you
• 6:41
  speak or whatever, can you just tell us kind of what you do, uh, you know, what
• 6:46
  you've created, a couple different things that, that, you know, maybe something
• 6:48
  we're gonna talk about today as well. But just give us your intro. Who are you? What
• 6:51
  do you do?
• 6:52
  Yeah. So Jason McCreary is the full name. Uh, I've gone by JMac for a long time, so
• 6:57
  I think most people in the Laravel community know me as JMac. That nickname
• 7:00
  predates Laravel community actually, 'cause I, I just... No matter where I
• 7:04
  worked, there were, there was always another Jason. I think at one job, there
• 7:07
  was four other Jasons on our, like, 20-person team. So it was just... We al-
• 7:11
  -always had- -Wow
• 7:12
  ... a nickname.
• 7:13
  JMac's the one that stuck, Jason McCreary. So,
• 7:17
  uh, again, in Laravel, I think most people probably know me as the creator of Shift,
• 7:21
  uh, for a little stint there, and they might have known me as, like, a test
• 7:24
  evangelist. That was probably my most recent, like-
• 7:26
  -Mm-hmm -... Laravel Talks.
• 7:29
  Um, occasionally I make a course. You know, I think over the years people have
• 7:32
  picked those up the longer they've been in the community. Uh, I typically make a
• 7:36
  course where I feel like there's a gap of knowledge, and honestly, it's-
• 7:41
  -Mm-hmm. Yeah -... sometimes it's in my own,
• 7:43
  like, my own knowledge gap, so the, the most recent one-
• 7:46
  -Mm -... Fast Laravel.
• 7:47
  You know, I was familiar with page caching back... You know, I've, I've been doing
• 7:51
  web development for almost 30 years now, so, like,
• 7:54
  I remember page caching back in, like, 2007, right? To, like, these big-
• 8:00
  -Mm-hmm. Mm-hmm -... when I worked at, like, Fortune 100
• 8:01
  com- 100 companies. They, like,
• 8:04
  needed to cache and, like, to, to up their page ranks in Google. Like, your last bit
• 8:08
  of eking things out was, like, a fast page, right?
• 8:12
  And I just felt like with serverless and all these other things, it kind of became,
• 8:16
  like, a little bit of this lost art. But yet, like, Cloudflare's on the scene-
• 8:19
  -Mm-hmm -... and it has all these, like, free
• 8:21
  services, and it's, it's big one being edge caching is kind of its initial claim
• 8:25
  to fame. It's, it's obviously has so many services now. Uh, but I think the big part
• 8:29
  of it initially was, like, you know,
• 8:32
  the edge, uh, you know, caching, the DNS, the pro- the proxying that happens.
• 8:37
  -So about a year ago, yeah- -Yeah
• 8:38
  ... I just dug deep into that. So that's kind of the most recent course. But
• 8:41
  there's been other ones, you know, like old school knowledge, Git knowledge,
• 8:45
  testing. Um,
• 8:47
  I kind of make them for me. They're not, like, huge Adam Wathan, like, splash style
• 8:52
  courses.
• 8:54
  -[laughs] Um- -Yeah
• 8:54
  ... but, you know, they're still fun to make. It's kind of just me turning the
• 8:57
  camera on and, and revealing what I've discovered, so...
• 9:01
  -I love that. -Which is the next one's cache.
• 9:02
  I think the first one...
• 9:04
  Yeah, absolutely it is. I, it's like you have the perspective of the beginner at
• 9:08
  that point. It's all still fresh, and so, you know, it's the, uh-
• 9:10
  -Mm-hmm -... opportune moment to sort of share that
• 9:13
  -information. -Yeah. I think the beginner to
• 9:15
  intermediate's, like, kind of an underserved market maybe is... You know,
• 9:18
  if you're super beginner, like Laracasts or just you're gonna YouTube stuff,
• 9:21
  whatever, it's gonna work. But that, that kind of, like, early intermediate and
• 9:25
  mid-intermediate, I think is just, like, a big, a big underserved market.
• 9:31
  Yeah, and I think the very first thing that I remember seeing you for was getting
• 9:35
  -Git. I think that was early, early on. -Yeah.
• 9:37
  -Um- -That was my first course ever
• 9:39
  ... and so that was a, that was a great... Yep, that was a great course. I remember
• 9:42
  watching that and learning a lot from that. Um, and you've had base code. You've
• 9:46
  had a lot of, a lot of different items along the way. Of course, you've had a lot
• 9:50
  of blog posts that have been influential and helpful to me personally. So, um, yep,
• 9:54
  Laravel Shift. I actually... Before we jump into Fast Laravel, I would love to
• 9:57
  just talk about
• 9:59
  what sort of differences you've noticed as AI and agentic coding and things like
• 10:05
  that have come on the scene, and even with, you know, the latest, uh, upgrade to
• 10:09
  -Laravel 13, which I've gotta say- -Yeah
• 10:11
  ... we are doing a slew of those right now. Um, just what's changed on your side?
• 10:16
  Tailwind, you know, has obviously had to, like, pivot. They've had a bunch of
• 10:18
  changes, so open source stuff has been affected greatly. Um, even Jeffrey Way
• 10:23
  with Laracasts has been putting out a bunch of things, just like, "Hey, here's
• 10:25
  how AI ef- is affecting our business." How, how have you felt that impact as a
• 10:29
  business owner?
• 10:31
  Yeah.
• 10:32
  I think with Laravel 13,
• 10:35
  for me, it probably clearly signaled the beginning of the end for Shift, at least
• 10:40
  as far as future, the future of the business goes, probably much-
• 10:45
  -Mm -... like Tailwind talked about earlier in
• 10:47
  the year. Like,
• 10:49
  and Shift's a little bit different in the sense that, like, there's no real strong
• 10:53
  pivot. Like, I think Tailwind can find some other pivots, you know, into, like,
• 10:57
  this UI.sh. I've noticed they're kind of looking into, like... They're integrating
• 11:02
  more of their design skills, like, into AI to offer kind of, like, this paid service
• 11:08
  in a way. I think they're exploring that anyway. But the point is, is like-
• 11:12
  Mm
• 11:13
  ... I don't know how much Shift has that avenue,
• 11:17
  uh, 'cause it's... Shift's kind of got a double whammy, 'cause, like, for about
• 11:20
  three releases now, Laravel has really marked everything, like, completely
• 11:26
  optional. You know, they've, they've kind of touted it as, like, no breaking
• 11:29
  changes, and I think there's truth to that statement.
• 11:33
  Um, but it's a l- it's a little... From my perspective, it's a little bit dangerous.
• 11:37
  Um, the prime example is, is, like,
• 11:40
  let's say you just run Composer Upgrade, and, and this has been the problem, the
• 11:43
  challenge with Shift since the very beginning. A lot of people go in, they
• 11:46
  just run Composer Update. It works,
• 11:49
  -and they just keep- -Mm-hmm
• 11:50
  ... going on, right? And you can do that, maybe you do that year after year, version
• 11:54
  -after version. -Mm.
• 11:55
  I think there were pivotal points in Laravel's history where the wheels fell
• 11:58
  off of that really, really hard.After like two versions.
• 12:02
  -Mm-hmm. -You know, way back in like 5.6, 5.7, 6.0,
• 12:05
  big, big changes.
• 12:07
  But they're not...
• 12:08
  That's not really so apparent anymore until you go to the docs, and this, this
• 12:13
  is kind of the last piece of evidence [laughs] other than people just saying,
• 12:17
  "Well, JMac, you're just trying to sell me, you know, a Shift. You're trying to
• 12:20
  sell me an upgrade."
• 12:22
  -Mm. -That's not really true. I mean, I, I
• 12:23
  genuinely just want you to be running the latest version, and we can kind of come
• 12:28
  back to why.
• 12:30
  But to stick with the point, like,
• 12:32
  let's say you wanted to add a new piece of middleware and you're coming from Laravel
• 12:35
  10, and you've only ever done composer update.
• 12:37
  -Mm-hmm. -Because if you go look at the upgrade
• 12:39
  guide, it kind of says, "Oh, all this other stuff's optional, just run composer
• 12:42
  update."
• 12:44
  Well, you're gonna have your old kernel file. Y-
• 12:46
  -if you go to the docs- -Mm
• 12:48
  ... to register a piece of middleware or to disable CSRF, and you've never
• 12:53
  done any of those, quote unquote, "optional changes," like now you're
• 12:56
  digging around the docs trying to figure out what to do. You're in, you're in no
• 12:58
  -man's land. You, you're running- -Mm-hmm
• 13:00
  ... Laravel 13, but you really have a Laravel, you know, 10, 11, or 12 app. It's
• 13:04
  just not the same.
• 13:06
  And I think if you work on an app every day, that creates a lot of drag.
• 13:11
  Um,
• 13:12
  so I think that's kind of one side of it, is that
• 13:16
  there hasn't been the strong need, quote unquote, "for Shift" in recent versions,
• 13:21
  because
• 13:22
  the upgrade guide just says, "Oh, it'd take you five minutes. All you gotta do is
• 13:25
  bump these three dependencies." And it's like-
• 13:27
  -Yeah -... true,
• 13:29
  but it's not the full story. Um, and it's kind of-
• 13:31
  -Yeah -... hard for developers to see that, that
• 13:33
  maybe have already been kind of doing that over the years anyway.
• 13:37
  Shift has like a 93%, like, user retention rate. Like, if you use Shift, you get its
• 13:43
  -value. Like, you understand why. -Yeah, yeah.
• 13:45
  But I think it's becoming very, very difficult for me to convince... Because of
• 13:48
  recent years of upgrades, it's very difficult for me to, like, go out and
• 13:52
  -convince or market this upgrade. -Mm.
• 13:55
  Not only because Laravel's saying it easy,
• 13:57
  but now because you can also jump in AI and say, "Hey, upgrade my app." And,
• 14:02
  you know, that may, that may or may not do more-
• 14:05
  -Yeah -... than the upgrade guide. You know, that
• 14:06
  really just depends on the model. It depends on h- how much context you give
• 14:11
  it. It depends on if you're using things like Boost or the internal upgrade tools
• 14:14
  or, or those things. Like,
• 14:16
  it... And as we know, it's AI, it's kind of luck of the draw that day on how
• 14:19
  -thorough it's actually- -Yeah
• 14:21
  -... gonna be. -Might have worked for one app-
• 14:23
  -Yeah -... it might not work for the next one.
• 14:24
  Yeah, you're just not gonna get the same results.
• 14:25
  Well, not in the same way at least. Yeah, yeah.
• 14:28
  So...
• 14:29
  -Yeah, and I think that's always- -You know, yeah
• 14:30
  ... been the benefit. And, and, you know, it's, it's the conversation that, that
• 14:34
  you've had
• 14:35
  this year, especially with, you know, the proliferation of AI and with all of this,
• 14:40
  um, tooling, that, yes, you can just do a composer update, and yes, you can,
• 14:47
  um, use the, the tools that Laravel provides to do the upgrade, like they've
• 14:51
  -got the skill now, I think. -Yeah.
• 14:52
  But to your point, you know, that you just made,
• 14:56
  whether or not it is actually a Laravel 13 application, and that has always been a
• 15:00
  very strong,
• 15:02
  um, positioning of Laravel Shift, is that it's to make it look like you are always
• 15:06
  running that version. Which, you know, the docs, all of that kind of... Like, I,
• 15:10
  even now,
• 15:12
  yes, I go through the Shift, I use the AI, um, 'cause you provided some snippets-
• 15:17
  -Some prompts, yeah -... some, some prompts that you could use
• 15:20
  -to- -Yeah
• 15:20
  ... to, like, coach the, the final cleanup, which was very useful. And then I
• 15:25
  go, and at least I know that when I look at the docs for the latest version, that,
• 15:29
  as you say, this is where you go and do this thing, and it's clear and it's
• 15:32
  consistent, which is not,
• 15:34
  not been the ca- In, in my head, I'm still running, you know, Laravel 10. But I go,
• 15:38
  "Oh, no, that's, that's not where this is anymore." So it's good to know that you
• 15:41
  can look at the docs and, and just go and do that process and just trust that it's
• 15:44
  -all- -Yeah
• 15:45
  ... gonna behave itself. It makes it easier if you bring on someone newer into
• 15:48
  a team environment as well,
• 15:51
  that they've only used Laravel 12 or they've only used Laravel 13. It's like,
• 15:54
  "Here is our Laravel 13 application." There's no question about it.
• 15:57
  -Yeah. -Now they don't get lost trying to figure
• 15:59
  -out what's, what's where and- -Yeah, truly-
• 16:01
  -... all that kind of stuff -... Laravel 13. Like, sure, you can, you
• 16:04
  can be compatible, and I think that's what the upgrade guide, its, its goal and its
• 16:07
  -focus- -Yeah
• 16:08
  ... is compatibility. And why, why the hell would Laravel go out and be like,
• 16:12
  "This is gonna be the most difficult upgrade ever?" Like, when-
• 16:15
  -Yeah. -Why would they say that? You know what I
• 16:17
  -mean? Like- -Yeah
• 16:18
  -... there's no incentive for them- -Yeah
• 16:19
  ... to give you every tiny little thing that ever got changed over the year-
• 16:24
  -Mm-hmm -... of, of changes that they do. You know,
• 16:27
  they do an annual release, so they're, they're not gonna cover every single one.
• 16:30
  -And- -Yeah
• 16:30
  ... that's not to say that Shift does either per se, but, but it definitely goes
• 16:34
  much deeper. And, and to the point, the goal is, is, is, is much different. I want
• 16:39
  it to look and feel like it's always been 13, 'cause that's what I would want of
• 16:43
  -the product, right? -Yeah. Yeah. Yep. And I've noticed that
• 16:47
  too. So like, what's... Like, in our most recent upgrades, um, okay, so I'll give
• 16:52
  two example, well, three. Number one was all the annotations that it put onto my
• 16:56
  models now. So like unguarded or guarded or like, uh, different things like that,
• 17:01
  that I normally would not have taken the time to do myself, which are now just-
• 17:06
  -Sure -... the default. So that's how, that's how
• 17:07
  it kind of how it works. And so it's like, great. That's not something I
• 17:10
  would've taken the time to do previously, something I knew that was an option now,
• 17:14
  but now it's just done, and it's, it's already handled. Another thing that was
• 17:17
  -interesting, which I would not- -Mm
• 17:18
  ... have caught ever, is the config changes for cache prefix and, um-
• 17:24
  -Yeah -... I think cookie name and whatever,
• 17:27
  which sounds so innocuous. It's like, okay, well, it's no big deal, the defaults
• 17:31
  are changing, but literally it's changing from an underscore to a dash. Who's going
• 17:34
  to catch that, that that's an underscore to a dash?
• 17:36
  -It looks- -However- Yeah
• 17:37
  ... it looks tiny, but it's actually huge impact. Yeah.
• 17:40
  It is. Yes. Yeah, and the reason why, and for those of you who might not know, the
• 17:46
  Redis prefix, for example, is a great ig- is a great one because it actually, if you
• 17:50
  follow it through, like, the three files, it's defined in database.php. It's also
• 17:54
  -defined in queue. Queue p- .php uses- -Mm-hmm
• 17:57
  ... the database connection, and then horizon.php uses the queue connection,
• 18:01
  which uses the database connection. Like, good luck chasing that all the way
• 18:04
  through, but if you don't change that Redis prefix and you just let the defaults
• 18:08
  cascade, you're gonna lose any jobs that were not completed by the time you did the
• 18:12
  -upgrade. They're gone. -Yeah.
• 18:13
  That, that prefix is not going to match for Horizon.
• 18:16
  -And session change too, so- -They're just gonna be orphan jobs out
• 18:18
  -there -Yeah.
• 18:19
  Yep. You're gonna d- invalidate all your sessions. And so those are the sorts of
• 18:22
  things that get surfaced that are like, I would never have caught that in the
• 18:26
  upgrade guide, number one. And number two, even if I would have, it would not have
• 18:30
  said, "Hey, by the way, this has changed three times in the last five releases."
• 18:34
  -Yeah. -"You might wanna consider just adding this
• 18:36
  -as a default moving forward." Like- -Yeah
• 18:38
  ... those are the sorts of things that could cause a lot of headache, that are
• 18:42
  surfaced for me in the top comment of the thing. Like, "Hey, these are changes
• 18:46
  you're really gonna need to be aware of," and then the rest of the comments in the
• 18:49
  shift are just like, "These are optional. Take a look if you want to, but they're
• 18:52
  not, they're not a big breaking change." The last piece of that, though, is it sort
• 18:56
  of
• 18:57
  m- melt, like melds together this idea of like, we're gonna do the automated
• 19:01
  portions of it, but if you want to have your agent do this, here's an example
• 19:06
  prompt for what you could push in if you just wanna use your own tokens to, to
• 19:10
  handle this portion. And so it's not necessarily one or the other, it's a, it's
• 19:14
  -a both/and, which I really appreciate. -Yeah. A- and I think that's going back to
• 19:18
  kind of that tailwind thing. I think that's my effort to integrate with AI. I
• 19:23
  -don't wanna make it Shift versus AI. -Yeah.
• 19:25
  I use AI, too. I'm a developer. Like, I, I use it actually now probably to write a
• 19:29
  majority of my code.
• 19:32
  Um, you know, so it's one of those things where I'm, I'm not trying to be like,
• 19:35
  "Shift is better than AI," or make it competitive. And honestly, I said that
• 19:38
  even before I knew about any of this, like Laravel 13, you know, its own little
• 19:43
  skill and all that kind of stuff. Like, I was saying that back in January, 'cause I
• 19:47
  just don't think that's the right path, you know? It, it's like trying to fight
• 19:50
  -the ocean- -Yeah
• 19:50
  ... or something. Like, it's [chuckles] not gonna work.
• 19:51
  -You're not gonna... Yeah, exactly. -Um-
• 19:53
  -Yeah -... you know, so it's one of those things
• 19:55
  where, yeah, I've done a lot of features to make it more integrated with AI, which
• 20:01
  I think is also, again, kind of that tailwind approach. Like, we're not gonna
• 20:04
  -be able to fight this. Let's, you know- -Mm
• 20:07
  ... let's... And we're not probably gonna outlast this, so let's kinda get on board
• 20:12
  with it, but give it our own little sprinkle-
• 20:15
  -Mm-hmm -... um, our own little flavor.
• 20:16
  -Mm-hmm. -And that's really what I've done with
• 20:17
  those AI prompts. They're much more contextual. They're in the comments. You
• 20:21
  know, these areas that I've always felt like, man, I wish I could automate that,
• 20:24
  but it just wouldn't be 100%, like, Shift standard reliable.
• 20:30
  But now I can give you the details like you're talking about, and then have this
• 20:33
  nice little dropdown prompt.
• 20:36
  If you're using AI, copy it. If not, the information's still there as a human. But,
• 20:40
  like, you copy this, you drop it in, and it's gonna do the right thing for you, and
• 20:44
  it's gonna take it that last mile locally with a better context. You know?
• 20:48
  -Yeah. -'Cause it's got access to your ENV files.
• 20:50
  You might not commit those, for example. Um, so it's just-
• 20:53
  -Right -... not something Shift can reliably do.
• 20:56
  Uh, so I'm glad for that integration. And then the other one, you know, just posted
• 21:01
  on Laravel News today, um, I put... I, I think I tweeted about it last week. But
• 21:06
  Matt Stauffer made this review skill,
• 21:08
  um, 'cause, you know, he's at Titan. He's using-
• 21:10
  -Mm-hmm -... Shift. He's got a subscription. He's
• 21:12
  using Shift for the dozens or hundreds of clients they manage to upgrade thing. He
• 21:17
  built this little dashboard and, you know, vibe coded.
• 21:20
  But then he built a skill where actually he can give it, you know, to Claude and
• 21:24
  say, "Okay, here's the PR number. Go, you know, use the GH commands and go review
• 21:28
  this thing," looking at the comments and treating-
• 21:30
  -That's cool -... Shift as a source.
• 21:33
  -Mm-hmm. -I, I kinda slept on that for a couple
• 21:35
  weeks, kinda like the podcast. [chuckles] And I finally met with him-
• 21:38
  -[laughs] -... I finally met with him, like, two or
• 21:40
  three weeks ago, and he showed this to me, and I was like,
• 21:43
  "Oh my God, I immediately built like four other skills now." So now there's a set of
• 21:47
  skills that are Shift kind of branded,
• 21:51
  um,
• 21:51
  to do everything from analyze your project to figure out what Shift should be run,
• 21:56
  to actually running it and then reviewing it as Stauffer, you know, his command
• 22:00
  kinda did.
• 22:02
  -But now there's also a refactor thing- -Mm
• 22:03
  ... that ties into the workbench, which was always kind of a sleepy feature of
• 22:07
  Shift as well. But now you can do all that from the prompt. You don't even have to
• 22:11
  open your IDE. You really don't even have to open GitHub. Like,
• 22:14
  -you can- -Mm
• 22:15
  ... you can trigger, run, and review, and merge a Shift
• 22:19
  all from your AI. Like,
• 22:21
  -I was upgrading it- -Didn't know that. That's pretty sick
• 22:23
  -... last week in, like, seven minutes. -Yeah.
• 22:24
  And I never even opened the IDE.
• 22:27
  -Yeah. -Oh my gosh.
• 22:28
  -It is- -That's wild
• 22:28
  ... it is crazy how much everything has kind of just,
• 22:32
  um, what's the word? Like, consolidated on the agent,
• 22:38
  the CLI being the, the one place where you do everything.
• 22:41
  -Yeah. -Like, I, I very... Like, I've still got my
• 22:44
  Vim terminal, 'cause, you know, you'll pry that from my cold, dead hands. But
• 22:47
  -I've got everything. -[laughs]
• 22:48
  I can, I can connect to the Nightwatch MCP. I've, I built an MCP for, um, the,
• 22:54
  the application that's managing, like, the Laracon stuff, where we did all the CFPs.
• 22:58
  So I can go and look at, and look at and analyze the feedback from speaker talks
• 23:04
  and submissions. When they say, "Hey, I'd like some more feedback," I can go and,
• 23:08
  and collate everything that all of the,
• 23:12
  um, all of the different reviewers said, and present that back to the speaker to be
• 23:16
  like, "Hey, if you were submitting again at another event, or to Laracon AU next
• 23:19
  year, here's the kinds of things we're looking for." So it's, it's just
• 23:21
  interesting how in a very, very short space of time, this has all changed,
• 23:26
  where, you know, we had people using PhpStorm and VS Code and, and Vim and, and
• 23:31
  whatever else, and now it's like, no, the single interface to literally everything.
• 23:35
  We don't Google search anymore. We don't... Like, everything is just in our
• 23:38
  little Claude code CLI.
• 23:41
  -It's crazy. -Yeah.
• 23:43
  Yeah, it is.
• 23:44
  Um, so maybe that's, maybe that's a good spot to sort of wrap on the Laravel Shift
• 23:47
  sorta things. Um, we're, like I said, we're using it extensively right now,
• 23:51
  getting all of our stuff upgraded. You know, we have
• 23:54
  90-some repos in our org, and, you know, I know at least, like, 30 of them are ones
• 23:58
  we're gonna have to use Laravel Shift on. So, um, if I have anything to give
• 24:02
  feedback on, I will give it in the next little bit here. But-
• 24:05
  -Sure -... that being said-
• 24:06
  -Always welcome -... uh, the other item... Yeah.
• 24:08
  -Yeah -The other item that we're looking at is,
• 24:11
  uh, this Fast Laravel, which we talked about on the Laravel News podcast for
• 24:14
  quite some time. Uh, there was-- Uh, I feel like it was almost like a,
• 24:19
  um, a serial blog sort of idea, where it was like you were sort of figuring out new
• 24:23
  -things and then releasing- -Mm-hmm
• 24:25
  ... things, and then you're like, "You know what? Why don't I just kind of...
• 24:27
  Instead of making people go read 5, 10, 12 blog posts or whatever, like, why don't I
• 24:31
  just put this together into a series and, and put this out there for the world?"
• 24:35
  And so,
• 24:36
  um, I'm curious, you know, you, you kind of gave us a little bit of a taste, right?
• 24:40
  Of like, here, here's kind of what it is, is we're talking about caching. Um-
• 24:44
  -Mm-hmm -... and that's a unique challenge with,
• 24:47
  with something like Laravel, because Laravel is a server-side language. And so
• 24:51
  the, you know, with some of these, uh, languages that are-- Or sorry, these
• 24:55
  frameworks that are using like Node and things like that, it seems like maybe the
• 24:58
  caching is a little bit easier, 'cause you don't have to invoke the server in order
• 25:01
  -to, um- -Yeah
• 25:02
  ... you do, I guess. But it just seems easier for some reason when you're on that
• 25:06
  side. You got a SPA, you know, you're pulling it all down and you cache it, you
• 25:09
  know, cache the thing. But with, with PHP, it's not quite as easy. And so, um-
• 25:14
  -Yeah -... you know, this idea of let's use
• 25:16
  Cloudflare to cache stuff is cool, but there's a lot of gotchas along the way.
• 25:21
  And, and sort of in the blog posts that we had read, the sentiment that you
• 25:25
  expressed is there was two big blog posts that you looked at to sort of figure out
• 25:29
  how this works, and both of them were either like out of date or sort of
• 25:34
  insufficient. So, um, give us like a little bit of a,
• 25:39
  like insight into how that works. You know, I'm not asking you to... Obviously,
• 25:42
  you're not gonna be able to like teach us everything in a, you know, 30 minutes. But
• 25:45
  like, what's the sort of-- What were some of the challenges that you ran into with
• 25:49
  that, and what are some of the interesting solutions that you came across on your
• 25:52
  way?
• 25:54
  Yeah.
• 25:55
  Yeah, so Fast Laravel, fastlaravel.com, uh, it's the most recent course I've made
• 26:00
  kind of Laravel related. Uh, and it was, again, it was kind of another thing I'd
• 26:04
  slept on, you know. I feel like in the last 18 months, or at least probably six
• 26:08
  months ago,
• 26:10
  you know, 18 months prior to that, people were just really talking about Cloudflare.
• 26:13
  I host with Cloudflare, I do this with Cloudflare, you know, set up Cloudflare.
• 26:16
  It just seemed like it was getting kind of this background buzz of where people
• 26:21
  were, were hosting or serving, you know, their sites out of, um... Or at least, at
• 26:26
  least their DNS was being handled through it as kind of this proxy.
• 26:30
  Uh, and again, kind of being an OG web developer, I remember messing with page
• 26:34
  caching a long time ago, so I really wanted to like figure out, like
• 26:38
  can I make a Laravel application,
• 26:41
  you know, faster? You know, there was a big push to like serverless and Octane and
• 26:45
  -all these. -Mm-hmm.
• 26:45
  And of course you can, we can throw CPUs, we can increase requests per second and,
• 26:50
  you know, we can talk about all that. But like, you're never gonna beat
• 26:55
  a, a static HTML page served directly from your browser. I mean, this is how HTTP
• 27:01
  -works- -Mm-hmm
• 27:01
  ... right? This is how it was built. It was built to be cached across networks
• 27:06
  locally, literally on your browser,
• 27:08
  to just be fed directly to you in a millisecond. So it just-
• 27:13
  -Mm-hmm -... anything else you ever wanna talk
• 27:15
  about, it just pales in comparison to just loading directly from disk,
• 27:20
  -right, on your local machine. -Yep.
• 27:22
  It cuts out all of the network layer, it cuts out all of the requests, the DNS, the
• 27:27
  routing. And then forget that, then it cuts out the fact that it's actually
• 27:31
  spinning up in your web server. It's, it's interpreting the PHP. It's loading-
• 27:36
  -Mm -... tens of thousands of lines of PHP code
• 27:39
  for Laravel just to boot,
• 27:41
  and then it spits out your view that's got nothing in it but static, you know, copy,
• 27:45
  -right? [chuckles] Like- -Yeah. Yep, yep
• 27:48
  -... it's just a little bit silly. -Exactly, yeah.
• 27:50
  Right? So the... So it's a, you know, it's a silly, you know... I'm making it silly,
• 27:53
  but the point is, is that I think even on a Laravel application,
• 27:57
  a percentage of most applications, especially in front of a login screen,
• 28:04
  are truly that. They're static for... I mean, look at laravel-shift.com, for
• 28:08
  example. I've got a product page, and yeah, that's fed from the database. It's
• 28:11
  fred, fed from product models, right? Product all. But like,
• 28:17
  I don't add products
• 28:18
  all the time. I mean, once a year, Laravel 13 shifts.
• 28:21
  -Mm-hmm. -Maybe I build a couple others during the
• 28:22
  year. But the point is, maybe once a quarter that page is actually changing. So
• 28:26
  yeah, it's dynamic, it's built with Laravel, it's pulling from a database,
• 28:30
  but its content is static.
• 28:32
  So that was kind of the genesis of like
• 28:35
  I know, again, in my OG web developer brain, that this page could be cached. I
• 28:39
  just kinda never messed with it, and it finally just got to this place where, like
• 28:43
  I had a little time to explore. Typically, you know, after Laracons is
• 28:47
  kind of my really slow season in the back half of the year. I'm not preparing for
• 28:50
  the new release. I'm not preparing to like give a talk necessarily. I'm, I've got
• 28:54
  some time.
• 28:55
  So I started messing with it last September, and I was just
• 29:00
  amazed at kind of the results. But to your point, I definitely found two or three
• 29:05
  gotchas, like right out of the box, and, and these are blog posts on Laravel News.
• 29:09
  -Mm. -Like you said, I tweeted about them at the
• 29:10
  time. I did little videos, um, in my livestreams.
• 29:14
  So just to kind of recap a couple of those, um,
• 29:17
  the first one is, you know, Laravel's a web framework,
• 29:20
  so out of the box
• 29:21
  it gives you state. Uh, it does so through cookies,
• 29:25
  um, cookies and sessions. So even though if you're not using or writing or doing
• 29:29
  anything with the session or these cookies, it's gonna send those back in the
• 29:32
  response right away, and you can see these as like out of the box. You'll see
• 29:35
  them as like Laravel_session, right? This cookie is just being used. Um,
• 29:42
  well, Cloudflare is built dynamically to look at the headers on the response, and
• 29:47
  even if you enable caching, it's going to see a cookie header and it's gonna bypass
• 29:52
  its internal cache. And you'll see this in the headers. You'll see-
• 29:55
  -Hmm. Interesting -... a CF status, cache status, and it says
• 29:58
  -bypass. Sometimes it'll say dynamic- -Mm
• 30:01
  ... uh, again, if the, if, if the cookie or other headers are, exist. So even if
• 30:06
  you set a header saying, "Oh, this page never changes," and you're not using
• 30:10
  session or doing anything weird on your page,
• 30:13
  um, or anything dynamic-Uh, you're still gonna get this bypass in the cache.
• 30:19
  So that sent me down the road of like,
• 30:21
  okay, well, how do we turn this off? Well, it's not so easy, um, 'cause again, this
• 30:25
  is built into Laravel out of the box. Laravel expects-
• 30:28
  -Yeah -... to have state out of the box. It, it
• 30:31
  uses it in the request. It uses it, you know, session facade, of course. It
• 30:34
  encrypts and decrypts cookies on every request.
• 30:38
  So I found the simplest way to do that was basically just to add a separate
• 30:41
  middleware group. You can think of it much like the API middleware group, um, which
• 30:45
  really has nothing on it either. It has no state. That's the whole point.
• 30:49
  -Um, but you still- -Yeah, right
• 30:49
  ... want a few small things to load, right? So again, this... I go deeper into
• 30:53
  it in the blog, but that was kind of the first, um, hurdle, was to kind of turn
• 30:57
  that off.
• 30:58
  Um, that puts you in a place where now if your pages are truly static,
• 31:04
  -you know, you can- -I was gonna ask if it's worth
• 31:06
  distinguishing between the idea of cache that lives, like,
• 31:13
  in the user's browser and also a cache that lives at Cloudflare.
• 31:18
  -Yeah. -Um, because some of the advantage that you
• 31:21
  get with using Cloudflare too, is that they are also doing their own cache layer
• 31:26
  -on your content that you're returning- -Yeah
• 31:28
  ... um, at the edge, meaning like at a node that's closest to-
• 31:33
  -Mm-hmm -... the user that's getting the traffic
• 31:34
  served to them. So can you speak to that just a little bit and kind of help us
• 31:38
  understand the difference between... Or, I mean, there's really both of those things
• 31:42
  happening, but how exactly that works and what, what that, what that is?
• 31:46
  Yeah, I think that was kind of the second hurdle. Uh, so, so yeah, once you have the
• 31:50
  -static page and you're- -Okay
• 31:51
  ... you're actually caching it,
• 31:53
  the second hurdle is, is, yeah, I think especially when we, in modern senses, and
• 31:58
  especially as Laravel developers, we hear cache and we're thinking like cache
• 32:01
  facade, right? We're not thinking we're caching a database query.
• 32:05
  -Mm-hmm. Yeah. -We're thinking of what you would consider
• 32:06
  as the application cache, right? Um, so this lives beyond that. What we're talking
• 32:11
  about here are, are two things, to your point. We're talking about a, now a
• 32:15
  network layer cache, and that's Cloudflare. So Cloudflare has its own
• 32:19
  little bucket, its cache bucket, that it's now going, if you tell it with headers
• 32:23
  and, and you have all the appropriate response headers in the HTTP,
• 32:28
  and you've enabled it on Cloudflare, which is a free service from them. I don't pay
• 32:31
  for anything for Cloudflare, and I've got all my sites cached to the tilt. But like,
• 32:37
  now they're going to cache it. And then you can even go further than that. You can
• 32:40
  actually go so far as to say the browser on the user's local machine to cache it as
• 32:46
  well. So you kinda create, in caching, what they call like this Russian doll
• 32:50
  technique,
• 32:51
  where like you have these little Russian dolls where like this outer layer's got a
• 32:54
  cache, and then you open it up and there's a little doll inside that, and then you
• 32:57
  open it up and there... And then you keep going all the way down, right? And
• 33:01
  you can do the same thing with your web responses. Um, we can cache them all the
• 33:06
  way down.
• 33:07
  Yeah, the, the Russian doll thing is, is interesting. I know that, uh, DHH when
• 33:11
  they, they were talking about like caching in the Rails ecosystem, they were big on
• 33:15
  the whole, like, don't cache the whole page 'cause you wanna cache like sections
• 33:19
  of it because, you know, this thing never changes, but,
• 33:22
  or, you know, the other part, or the, the whole of the page very-
• 33:25
  -Yeah -... rarely changes, but the inside is
• 33:27
  dynamic. You know, you're listing your products, so that stuff has to change
• 33:29
  quite frequently. And
• 33:32
  your products, no, but like there are bits of the page that will change.
• 33:35
  -Mm-hmm. -Like a blog. On, on my blog, for example,
• 33:38
  it doesn't change often, but when it does, if that blog index-
• 33:41
  -Sure -... is cached,
• 33:42
  you gotta bust the whole thing just to get-
• 33:44
  -Yeah -... the content to update-
• 33:45
  -Yeah -... so you can see the new post is up.
• 33:46
  So in the course, I explore ways to actually cache partials,
• 33:50
  partial pieces of the page as well. And of course,
• 33:52
  as, as Laravel and the community, we ha- we already have a lot of tools that kind
• 33:56
  of
• 33:57
  get us into this partial idea. Even on a Blade level, we can think of partials in
• 34:02
  the page, right, um, being included.
• 34:05
  Uh, but you know, we're also familiar with Livewire, we're familiar with Alpine,
• 34:08
  we're familiar with React, Vue, Inertia, all these things that are probably already
• 34:12
  breaking up the page in a way
• 34:14
  that either is already very, very cacheable or at least make components of
• 34:19
  it, um, cacheable or fragments of that HTML that's being returned cacheable.
• 34:24
  Um, so there's a lot of options. Again, I, I go deep into all that. Um, there's more
• 34:29
  blog posts, but
• 34:32
  the whole point is, is again,
• 34:34
  you're not gonna get anything, it's not just Laravel, you're not gonna get any web
• 34:38
  application any faster than caching, you know, at the edge, and the edge can be all
• 34:44
  the way up to and including the user's actual browser.
• 34:49
  But Cloudflare, to Jake's point a minute ago, Cloudflare-
• 34:52
  -Yeah -... you know, it's distributed across the
• 34:54
  entire world with nodes everywhere. So like if you go to laravel-shift.com and
• 34:59
  you inspect the headers, you'll see what's called a CF-Ray in the response,
• 35:04
  and typically you'll notice that these are,
• 35:07
  you know, geographically close to you. So when it does actually request,
• 35:13
  -it doesn't even- -Yeah
• 35:13
  ... go so far as like to US West. It's going to Nashville-
• 35:19
  -Yeah -... which is only like, you know, 100
• 35:21
  miles away from me, you know, speed of light.
• 35:23
  -Yeah. -Right? So it's just even when it's-
• 35:26
  -Yeah -... not coming from the browser-
• 35:27
  -Yeah, that's right -... it's still coming back to me in things
• 35:29
  like 23 milliseconds. I'm seeing my page load.
• 35:33
  Yeah. Well, we've got, we've got, uh,
• 35:35
  three, I think, Cloudflare...
• 35:38
  -Last time I looked- -Melbourne, I think
• 35:39
  ... we had three Cloudflare POPs in Australia. One of them is-
• 35:42
  -Mm-hmm. -Yeah, there's Melbourne, there's Sydney,
• 35:44
  there's Adelaide, and if it's in Adelaide-
• 35:46
  -Yeah -... I assume Brisbane and Perth have got
• 35:48
  one as well at this point. But like, to your point, yeah, it's, if it's not cached
• 35:53
  -in my browser, it's cached- -Sure
• 35:55
  ... one millisecond away at the data center that's-
• 35:57
  -Yeah, I mean, if you- -... 12 and a half kilometers down the
• 35:59
  -road. -Yeah. I mean, eight months ago-
• 36:00
  -So it's- -... if you went to laravel-shift.com,
• 36:02
  you're, you're coming all the way to Virginia.
• 36:04
  You know what I mean?
• 36:05
  -So y- you in, in Australia- -Mm-hmm. Yeah
• 36:08
  -... are, are- -Yeah
• 36:09
  ... you know, pinging probably 100 milliseconds just to come to Virginia.
• 36:13
  -Then it's running- -Yeah
• 36:15
  -... Laravel. Again, not necessarily slow. -Yeah.
• 36:17
  PHP is fast in my opinion,
• 36:19
  but, you know, tens of thousands of lines of code on my little shared server host
• 36:23
  -box, $5 box. Like it's, you know- -Mm-hmm. Yeah
• 36:27
  ... you're probably seeing my page in a second and a half, and that's ridiculous
• 36:31
  in 2026.
• 36:33
  Yeah.
• 36:35
  -It's basically instant now, which is- -So, yeah
• 36:36
  -... which is great. -Well, the cool news, too, is like, you
• 36:39
  know, if that does... And so you- if you have something that hits, like, Hacker
• 36:41
  News front page, and you have everything cached at Cloudflare-
• 36:44
  -Yeah -... it doesn't even matter.
• 36:45
  -That's right. -Like, you're not gonna take your box down
• 36:47
  either, like, 'cause it's not even touching-
• 36:48
  -Yeah -... your box. It's, it's totally bypassed.
• 36:50
  It's never gonna hit-
• 36:51
  -Exactly -... my origin-
• 36:52
  -Yep, exactly -... unless I busted it.
• 36:53
  -Yeah. -Yeah.
• 36:54
  Right. So I was gonna say, too, like, well, so two things. Number one,
• 36:58
  uh, like, what sort of cache coverage, if we wanna use that sort of term, have you
• 37:03
  -been able to achieve on Laravel Shift? -Mm.
• 37:07
  And then secondly,
• 37:09
  do you feel like this is still, like, a proper strategy or something that's even
• 37:12
  achievable for something that is a heavily, like, changing content site? It's
• 37:16
  -a bit of a leading question- -Yeah
• 37:17
  ... because I've heard from Eric Barnes that you've been working with him a lot-
• 37:21
  -Yeah -... on, like, his blog-
• 37:23
  -Yeah -... and getting that cached up. And so I'm
• 37:25
  curious just, like, if there's been any different strategies you've employed or
• 37:28
  whatever. So two questions, kind of just to flesh that out a little bit.
• 37:31
  Yeah, yeah. I'll actually throw in a, a third answer real quick, too. But, so the,
• 37:35
  the for- the format of the Fast Laravel course is actually me basically recreating
• 37:40
  from scratch,
• 37:42
  taking laravelshift.com from 6% cache when I first signed up at Cloudflare,
• 37:47
  straight Laravel out of the box, you know, tall stack kind of thing,
• 37:52
  uh, to 99% cached. And if I, if we screenshotted Cloudflare right now, you'd
• 37:57
  -probably see 98.6%. -My gosh.
• 37:59
  It's been steady that way for the last six months.
• 38:03
  So yeah, 90, 99% cache, basically. On the weekends, it's 100% cache, because
• 38:08
  basically that 1% are my users actually logging in to custom user dashboards. And
• 38:14
  -I could go- -Mm
• 38:15
  ... that far if I wanted to, but, like,
• 38:17
  99%, let's, let's, let's have a little fun, right? Let's get $5 worth-
• 38:21
  -Yeah -... out of that box.
• 38:22
  -For what reason? Yeah. -Um.
• 38:24
  So first question, yeah, 99%. Uh,
• 38:28
  is that achievable by every kind of site? No. Some more than others. I think some
• 38:32
  could be 100%, easy. Um,
• 38:36
  -but the point is 99%- -Mm
• 38:37
  ... of your traffic, I mean, Laravel Shift is not an unused site. I mean, I think I
• 38:41
  get 100,000
• 38:43
  requests maybe every couple days, every 48 hours, I think, just kind of looking off
• 38:48
  the charts. So I mean, it's not,
• 38:50
  it's not a huge site, but it's not a small one either.
• 38:54
  Um,
• 38:55
  Laravel News, though, I wanna do more case studies-
• 38:57
  -Yeah -... is kind of to your, your second
• 38:59
  leading question.
• 39:00
  And so over the last kind of month or two, you know, when we have time, Eric and I
• 39:04
  have met and increased his caching on Cloudflare.
• 39:07
  Um, I think he started around 17 or 18%. In fairness, he was already doing some
• 39:13
  pretty heavy image caching and, and video caching based on, of course, his, his news
• 39:18
  kind of content.
• 39:20
  Uh, but none of his page was, pages were actually-
• 39:22
  -Mm-hmm -... being cached. So this, it was a really
• 39:24
  fun case study. I think he's got a lot of video content he wants to release. I'm
• 39:27
  gonna do, of course, a, a deeper blog post.
• 39:29
  But I think right now he just, he's caching the homepage and the article page
• 39:33
  for the last few weeks. Today, he just deployed Decat, caching his blog,
• 39:38
  um, links and, um,
• 39:41
  or his archive page, I think.
• 39:44
  I fully expect he'll hit
• 39:46
  -70 to 80%- -Mm. Okay
• 39:48
  ... after this, um, in the next few days. And again, we could keep going if we
• 39:52
  -wanted, because he has no user login- -Yeah
• 39:55
  ... on the front side. But what he does have is complexity in his-
• 39:58
  -Mm-hmm -... scheduling, right?
• 39:59
  -Right, right. -He releases blog posts-
• 40:01
  -Yep -... every couple hours-
• 40:02
  -Yeah -... or when he wants. So we did have to
• 40:04
  build in some things, some jobs, some events. And again, Laravel gives you all
• 40:08
  these hooks. Oh, hey, some, you know, blog article got updated, you know, eloquent
• 40:13
  event fire. Okay, clear cache for its page, its slug page. It's all achievable.
• 40:19
  -Mm-hmm. -Um-
• 40:19
  -Mm-hmm -... you know, so that's been really,
• 40:22
  really fun.
• 40:23
  Yeah. Um, yeah, that... I, I spoke to you about this just before we, we started
• 40:27
  recording, was, you know, the Laracon website has just went live and, you know,
• 40:32
  the speakers are not gonna change now. They're, they're live. That's, that's the
• 40:35
  list of speakers. Um,
• 40:37
  all of the content, the details is, is kind of set in stone. So to be able to
• 40:41
  cache that whole, whole public-facing site would be ideal. The issue that I ran into
• 40:47
  -[chuckles] was- -Mm
• 40:48
  ... I wanted to go to sleep at a normal time at, on Sunday night,
• 40:52
  and for the, the, that, the website to just update itself at midnight on the 1st
• 40:56
  of June.
• 40:57
  -And- -Yeah
• 40:58
  ... th- but when the page is cached, there's no way, like,
• 41:01
  it's, it's finding... 'Cause, you know, when you update an article or I update a
• 41:05
  speaker bio or something, you can fire the event, you can trigger the cache update,
• 41:09
  -you know, clear the- -Yeah
• 41:10
  ... cache on the, the speaker list, clear the cache on that speaker. Perfect. But,
• 41:15
  but when it's, like, a scheduled thing that you want to happen in the future,
• 41:18
  you know, it's a, it's a different thing. You've gotta,
• 41:21
  you've gotta go and figure out what, what will publish.
• 41:23
  -Yeah. -And that might change in different places.
• 41:25
  For, for me, it's quite, quite simple. But you've gotta go, "Okay,
• 41:28
  -every minute with your-" -Yeah
• 41:29
  ... "scheduled task, does anything need to be busted? Does everything, anything need
• 41:32
  to be busted?" And then go and fire the, the cache clear.
• 41:36
  That's one of the questions in Fast Laravel I, I, I kind of present right
• 41:39
  away. Like, if you're gonna get into caching, you, you have to immediately kind
• 41:43
  of ask yourself the question, like, are you comfortable serving stale content,
• 41:50
  right? And if, if you're not comfortable with that at all, then you probably can't
• 41:55
  really cache the page. Even if you technically could cache the page, like
• 41:59
  from a business or a personal, you know, standpoint, you just, you have to kind of
• 42:03
  -say no- -Mm
• 42:03
  ... or you have to set a TTL, or maybe you can't do browser caching, 'cause, you
• 42:07
  know, again, the farther away the cache is from you, the harder it is to control,
• 42:11
  right? I can't reach in and clear out Jake's, you know, bla- browser cache,
• 42:16
  like, and I don't need him calling me. I don't need my users calling me at 2:00
• 42:19
  -a.m.- -Yeah
• 42:19
  ... saying, "Oh, I'm seeing yesterday's page."
• 42:22
  Um, so there's some things to consider there.
• 42:25
  -Yeah. -But you-
• 42:25
  -Yeah -... you do have a good point. Like, you
• 42:27
  wanna make sure... There's probably some, some area for me to cover there, and I
• 42:31
  know JT, um, guy I've been kind of pairing with, JT Smith,
• 42:36
  uh, you know, he kind of helped with the course, uh, you know, content and, and
• 42:40
  kind of researching. He built some packages around it.
• 42:44
  Um,
• 42:45
  you know, I wonder if there's something in there where-You know, you can,
• 42:50
  you can set a schedule or something. You can, you can pre-enter an artisan command
• 42:56
  that, like, is, "Okay, run this command at this time and it..." But to your point,
• 43:01
  like at the end of the day, it's...
• 43:02
  -Yeah, yeah, yeah. -Even if it's like a delayed queue job,
• 43:04
  maybe. You know, if you set a future date on something, it's like-
• 43:07
  -Yeah -... just go and queue this thing to
• 43:08
  -trigger the- -There's definitely ways
• 43:10
  ... the cache bust at that day and time, so. I mean, now that everything's...
• 43:13
  Yeah, there's probably... Y- there's always, you know, in, in anything that we
• 43:17
  do, there's more than one way to, to achieve an outcome. And I think, like now,
• 43:21
  like I said, everything's static. It's all set.
• 43:24
  All the speakers are not changing. There's none of the content's gonna change. We
• 43:27
  might, you know, when, when tickets sell out or we move through our-
• 43:31
  -Sure -... allocations, we might change those
• 43:32
  pages. But for the most part, we could probably just go and, like, blanket cache
• 43:36
  -everything- -Yeah
• 43:36
  -... and, and leave it. -You do have-
• 43:37
  -Leave it at that -... it is, it is a layer of complexity in
• 43:40
  the, in the, you know, in the joke, you know, the age-old joke, uh, you know,
• 43:45
  cache invalidation is hard, right? Like,
• 43:48
  you do have to remember, "Oh yeah, cache this page." [laughs] You know, when you're
• 43:51
  sitting... If you go down this road, like when you're sitting there-
• 43:53
  -Yeah, that's right -... refreshing a thousand times-
• 43:54
  -Why is- -... you're like-
• 43:55
  -Yeah -... "Why the hell am I not seeing-"
• 43:56
  Yeah. Refreshing. Why is nothing changing?
• 43:58
  -"... when I think it's deployed?" -Yeah.
• 43:59
  -You know? Oh yeah, it's cached- -Yeah
• 44:01
  ... in my browser. Oh yeah, it's cached in Cloudflare.
• 44:04
  Yeah.
• 44:05
  -That's right. -The good news is on like Cloudflare too,
• 44:07
  -is- -Yeah
• 44:08
  ... yeah, y- they have like an emergency bypass mode in Cloudflare though, too. You
• 44:11
  -know what I mean? So you can say like- -Oh, yeah, they-
• 44:13
  ... "No, I'm in dev mode." I don't even know if that's what they call it, but it's
• 44:15
  -something like that- -Yeah
• 44:16
  ... where you're like, "I'm actually trying to see the real thing right now."
• 44:19
  -Mm-hmm. -"Please stop caching."
• 44:20
  -Yeah. -And now you locally at least are gonna say
• 44:22
  like, "Hard refresh, like clear out my browser cache." But then Cloudflare's
• 44:26
  -gonna be like, "Okay, I'm-" -Yeah
• 44:26
  "... serving you whatever version is actually currently live right now." So it
• 44:30
  just kind of bypasses its own stuff. Um, so yeah.
• 44:34
  As with anything, it's, yeah, it's just something to put into your workflow,
• 44:37
  right? You know, you just have to get used to it, so.
• 44:40
  -Yeah. -The, the area-
• 44:43
  It does also make it easy to clear or, or to... Yeah, it does, it also makes it very
• 44:47
  easy to bust the cache of specific pages through the UI, which is what I ended up
• 44:51
  doing for my blog, was just like, go and bust the blog list, go and bust that
• 44:56
  article page, and then, and then it's done. So it'd just be nice to, to automate
• 45:01
  -the process- -Yeah
• 45:01
  ... which is, you know, not hard. It's just, you know, "Claude, go and, [laughs]
• 45:05
  go and make sure that when this, this content changes, you fire the- [laughs]
• 45:08
  -Yeah -... the cache bust command."
• 45:09
  Yeah, I think, I think there's an opportunity for that package to, to maybe
• 45:12
  explore that a little bit. But, um,
• 45:15
  yeah.
• 45:16
  -I think- -Mm
• 45:17
  ... I think the area that's interesting for me, and I just saw a PR into Laravel
• 45:21
  on this, uh, from,
• 45:23
  from Devin, one of the core, the core cloud team members, um,
• 45:27
  uh, uh, who I met at Laracon AU last year,
• 45:30
  uh, at the nice dinner that, that Dorinda took us out to, the steak, steak dinner.
• 45:35
  Um,
• 45:36
  but yeah, he, he opened one up kind of, uh, you know, slightly inspired by Fast
• 45:40
  Laravel to, to bring some of the techniques that I have in the course first
• 45:45
  party into the framework. So, for example,
• 45:48
  um, this route static method. So you could just say route stat, kind of like you say
• 45:51
  route view or route get. You could say route static,
• 45:55
  and this would dis-
• 45:58
  it's an effort to disable some of the things that make it stateless, and
• 46:01
  therefore allow it to be cached. Laravel's very interested in this for kind of
• 46:06
  selfish reasons, because they are really tackling with cloud. You know, you can see
• 46:11
  they're heading this direction where hibernate, and they're trying to spin you
• 46:15
  up, and, you know, these sub, sub-second, you know, 100 millisecond kind of thing.
• 46:21
  So if you pair the best of both of these worlds, right, uh, you could start to
• 46:24
  think that,
• 46:26
  okay, if Laravel actually did kind of adopt or, or make this strategy kind of
• 46:32
  modern again, right, gave it its own little spice of, of caching,
• 46:37
  and Laravel Cloud gives you edge caching built in, 'cause they sit on top
• 46:40
  Cloudflare, all this can be built in.
• 46:43
  But then even when you do
• 46:46
  go through the cache or need to do something actually that spins and boots up
• 46:49
  Laravel,
• 46:50
  you can come out of hibernation mode in 50 milliseconds, right?
• 46:56
  You can see how that starts to get really, really interesting and, and you can see
• 47:00
  how it's this wonderful mix of new and old strategies that kind of forge the future
• 47:06
  a bit. So I'm really, really interested to see where that goes and, and in a way,
• 47:12
  um,
• 47:14
  it's fun for me to, to see. You know, I kind of stumbled into this area that I
• 47:19
  thought was just kind of this old technique that I was seeing how it worked
• 47:22
  in the modern world,
• 47:24
  but we're kind of seeing even actually Laravel
• 47:27
  Cloud specifically kind of give a little more weight to edge caching, 'cause it
• 47:32
  relates to their hibernation. If they can-
• 47:35
  -Yeah -... if they can cache something for
• 47:36
  longer, then you can hibernate for longer. If you can hibernate for longer-
• 47:39
  -Yeah -... then you're lower server cost.
• 47:41
  -Yeah. -If we have to spin you up and we can do
• 47:43
  -that faster- -Yeah
• 47:44
  ... then it's not a big toll that you're paying, right, to, to cache more-
• 47:49
  -Right -... and stay hibernated longer.
• 47:52
  So.
• 47:54
  Yeah. I definitely think a lot of the stuff that they've done recently, um, th-
• 47:59
  I was just talking to some people about this before we recorded, and the pricing
• 48:03
  is not
• 48:05
  ideal
• 48:06
  for any of their stuff. I mean, the, the CP- uh, the, the compute is like, you
• 48:11
  know, you're capped at this amount per month. But if you look at,
• 48:14
  um, like the managed queues that they just released, it's like $0.000000178
• 48:21
  -per, you know, per second or something. -Yeah.
• 48:23
  It's like, what does that mean? But,
• 48:27
  -um, where, where other platforms of- -Mm-hmm
• 48:30
  ... a similar pedigree,
• 48:32
  they, you know, they didn't have cost controllers, they didn't have this, they
• 48:35
  didn't have that. You know, you hear, I mean, probably not recently, but you've
• 48:38
  heard all these horror stories of the past. It's like, "I was on Hacking News
• 48:41
  -and I woke up- -Yeah
• 48:41
  ... and I've got a $30,000 bill for my, my thing."
• 48:44
  -Yeah. -The, the, the concern I think that
• 48:48
  we, we heard when Cloud was announced and when it was launched and all of the stuff
• 48:53
  around the Excel funding, that is gonna lead to, you know, the enshittification
• 48:58
  and, and whatever else of Laravel, I don't think that hasLike I, I didn't
• 49:05
  -think it was gonna be an issue. -Yeah.
• 49:05
  But I don't think we've seen it come to fruition. Everything that they're doing at
• 49:09
  the moment,
• 49:10
  you know, as you said, they're trying to get your, your servers to spin down as
• 49:14
  often as possible, spin up as quick as possible,
• 49:17
  and, and run for as little as possible. Like, all of this stuff is cost
• 49:21
  optimization, it's cost minimization. If we can, if we can cache it at the edge,
• 49:27
  you know, whether it's the Cloudflare cache that they run or it's your own stuff
• 49:32
  that's on top, like all of these things, whilst the pricing is
• 49:37
  not human-friendly to reason about, like I understand why it is, because they're
• 49:41
  -char- they're on charging- -Mm-hmm
• 49:43
  ... what they're billed by their providers. Makes sense.
• 49:46
  But
• 49:47
  the fact that those numbers are so tiny, and that they're doing so much work in
• 49:51
  public and, and into the products to make sure that you are actually consuming as
• 49:56
  little of those resources as possible,
• 49:59
  um, is, is really good to see,
• 50:01
  you know, two and a half years down the road-
• 50:03
  -Yeah -... from when Cloud was announced, so.
• 50:05
  It's nice because there's aligned incentives there, right? Like, that's not
• 50:08
  always the case, where, you know, sometimes you have misaligned incentives,
• 50:12
  and like it's actually to the benefit of the provider to make the things run for
• 50:15
  -longer or whatever. -Right.
• 50:16
  Like, they wanna have more billable minutes or whatever, right? And for them,
• 50:19
  it's like because they own the VPS stuff, that, well is a V- yeah, because they own,
• 50:23
  like, some of the hardware. Own, quote unquote, right?
• 50:26
  -It's- -Mm
• 50:27
  ... to their benefit to be able to say, "No, let's let it hibernate. Like, charge
• 50:31
  you less, but then we don't, you know, they don't have to pay as much to the
• 50:33
  -provider either." So anyway, um- -That's right
• 50:34
  ... I think it's, uh, yeah, it's interesting. It's a... And they, they've
• 50:37
  -been working- -It is interesting
• 50:38
  ... really hard on it, obviously. Doing a great job. Yep. Yep, yep.
• 50:41
  Yeah. They, I mean, they get charged less, so they charge you less, but it also
• 50:45
  means they make less because they're not, you know. So all of these factors that I'm
• 50:49
  -sure that their- -Yeah
• 50:50
  ... finance people figure out. But net result is that the people using the
• 50:55
  platforms are getting something that is, you know, as has always been,
• 51:00
  from, from my perspective, you know, at the heart of everything Taylor does, it's
• 51:03
  to the developer experience. And so far,
• 51:07
  -that has- -Mm
• 51:07
  -... that has held true. You know? -Yeah. Yeah. I think it, I think it's
• 51:11
  really interesting. Um, and I, I'm glad to see them kind of going down that road,
• 51:15
  not just from the edge caching, but, but the hibernation. I, I think that was
• 51:19
  always an appeal,
• 51:21
  you know, even when they first launched, and it, it might not have been, like you
• 51:25
  said, exactly what was expected at first, but I think they're, you know, they're
• 51:29
  filling those gaps as quickly as they can. Um, so it's cool to kinda see it come
• 51:34
  -together- -Yeah
• 51:35
  ... uh,
• 51:36
  quickly. So anyway.
• 51:39
  -Jason, where can, uh, where can people- -Oh
• 51:42
  -... find the course? -All right.
• 51:43
  Uh, if they're looking to purchase it, where's the best place for them to go, and
• 51:47
  what's the cost? Uh, give me the rundown.
• 51:49
  Yeah. FastLaravel.com. Uh,
• 51:52
  I, I sh- I mean, I think there was an early access price for a very short amount
• 51:58
  of time. I wanna say it's, I wanna say, like, it's 199
• 52:02
  right now.
• 52:03
  Um, but kinda to the point we were just talking about, like if you end up caching
• 52:08
  99% of your site, and everything it uses is free Cloudflare services, so it's not
• 52:12
  like you buy this course, then you gotta go buy, like, a $20 a month-
• 52:15
  -Mm-hmm -...
• 52:16
  Cloud, Cloudflare or even Laravel Cloud anything.
• 52:19
  -Um- -Right. Right
• 52:20
  ... everything that is in this course
• 52:23
  is designed to show you how to spend less on server costs, which are basically
• 52:27
  infinite. So, like-
• 52:29
  -Yeah -... yeah, there's, there's a cost to the
• 52:31
  course, but, uh, I would really believe that you would, you would make that back,
• 52:36
  uh, over time. [laughs] Uh, not even a very long amount of time.
• 52:40
  -Um- -Agreed
• 52:40
  ... you know, kinda going back to the Laravel news thing-
• 52:42
  -Mm -... like, that was kind of the part of the
• 52:44
  case study and why I wanted to work with Eric, is 'cause I know he moved to cloud,
• 52:48
  and I know they're working on Hibernate, and I wanna prove this out. I wanna prove
• 52:51
  -if we can cache him 70%- -Yeah
• 52:53
  ... can we also, like,
• 52:55
  kinda just silly math, like can we reduce his server cost by 70%? You know what I
• 53:00
  -mean? -Right. Yep.
• 53:00
  Like,
• 53:01
  -I think this is a real- -Yeah
• 53:02
  -... thing, right? -Yeah.
• 53:02
  If you're Jeffrey Way and you're on the $200 a month box,
• 53:07
  but you, we go and you cache your site, can we get you down to, you know, the $60
• 53:12
  a month box? I think we probably could. It's a comfort thing, but I think we
• 53:16
  -could. Um- -Mm. Yeah. Yeah
• 53:18
  -... so to the point, then, then it- -Yeah
• 53:20
  ... just paid for the course.
• 53:21
  Um,
• 53:22
  so yeah, FastLaravel.com. Otherwise, of course, laravel-shift.com. I'll be at
• 53:26
  Laracon US. Uh,
• 53:29
  I live stream every Wednesday, mostly every Wednesday. Uh, you know, the five
• 53:33
  people that are in there, I appreciate you. And, uh-
• 53:36
  -[laughs] -... of course, I appreciate you guys. But
• 53:38
  yeah, I think,
• 53:40
  yeah, I think if Shift doesn't work out, I'll, you know, I'll probably just open up
• 53:43
  -a tree-cutting service and, uh- -There you go
• 53:46
  ... maybe a woodworking shop and-
• 53:48
  -Make some tables. Yep -... you know, just try to stay active.
• 53:50
  -Yeah. -Mm-hmm.
• 53:51
  It's...
• 53:53
  -[laughs] -I've, I've got a pepper tree growing over
• 53:55
  -the fence that I need cut down- -On the plane
• 53:57
  ... if you wanna... Might be a bit hard to-
• 53:59
  -It'll be the most expensive tree- -... bring your equipment [laughs]
• 54:00
  ... they've ever cut down in your life.
• 54:03
  -Um- -I don't know how TSA handles chainsaws.
• 54:05
  -Absolutely. -Checked luggage or whatever, you know. I
• 54:07
  -don't know how that typically works, so. -Well, I'll ship it. It'll be there in two
• 54:10
  -weeks. -Yeah, we'll find out, I guess.
• 54:11
  So.
• 54:12
  -But yeah, it, uh- -Amazing
• 54:13
  -... it's good. -Amazing.
• 54:15
  -There we go. -Well-
• 54:16
  Dorinda, what episode are we on, this one?
• 54:18
  -194. -194. Everybody, thanks so much for hanging
• 54:22
  out with us on episode 194. You can find show notes for this episode at
• 54:25
  northmeetsouth.audio/194. Hit us up on X if you have any questions at
• 54:30
  michaelDorinda, at jacobBennett, at goneDark is JMax handle, uh, there as
• 54:35
  well. Uh, I mean, is there any other places where the people need to get in
• 54:38
  touch with you? You already mentioned them, so we'll just, we'll leave it at
• 54:40
  -that. -You can email me.
• 54:41
  -But, uh, if you- -I'm old.
• 54:42
  If you liked the-
• 54:43
  -[laughs] -... email you. Okay. That works, too. Is,
• 54:46
  what is the... I'm trying to remember the name of the domain now. What is, uh,
• 54:50
  what's the email that they can email you at?
• 54:52
  Well, you can, you can, you can email, you know, laravel-shift, right?
• 54:56
  -support@laravel-shift.com. -I gotcha.
• 54:58
  -It's me. It's always- -Okay. There we go
• 55:00
  -... it's always me. -support@laravel-shift.
• 55:00
  It is funny when people send something there-
• 55:02
  -It's Jason -... and they're like, "Hey, hey, Shift
• 55:03
  team. Hey. Oh, you're..." And it's, like, always me.
• 55:06
  -[laughs] -It's always me, forever.
• 55:08
  Yeah. "Hey, team."
• 55:09
  -Yeah. -That's funny.
• 55:10
  -It's kind of flattering, right? -Um,
• 55:12
  yeah. Right. They, like, they think it's a whole organization behind this one
• 55:15
  -product. It's just- -Mm-hmm
• 55:16
  ... the guy, the one guy, the Laravel garbage man.
• 55:18
  -It's me. -Yeah.
• 55:19
  -The garbage man. -So anyway, Jason, thanks so much f- thanks
• 55:22
  so much for, uh, coming on the show, though. Looking forward to hanging out
• 55:24
  with you at Laracon. Um, might be grabbing the, uh, same hotel you're gonna be, so
• 55:29
  -we'll see. We're gonna see- -Oh, yeah
• 55:30
  -... if we can line that up, but, um- -I'm at The Moxy, yeah
• 55:32
  ... still gotta reserve hotels, so The Moxy. Yeah, exactly. So look forward to
• 55:36
  -seeing you in Boston. -All right. Well, thanks very much. And,
• 55:39
  uh, if I don't speak to you beforehand, I'll see you in Boston.
• 55:41
  We'll see you guys.
• 55:42
  [outro music]