Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #148: Label Shocker: Study shows Mandatory Labeling IMPROVED Support for GMOs!

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Episode #148: Label Shocker: Study shows Mandatory Labeling IMPROVED Support for GMOs! · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: In Vermont, when the mandatory labeling happened, it actually led to a decrease in their opposition to genetically engineered foods.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_01: To be specific, it was a 19% decrease in opposition toward genetically engineered foods.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_00: Hi, everybody.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: Welcome to another episode of the Beyond Labels Podcast with yours truly, Farmer Joel Salatin and our favorite researcher, Dr.
• 0:29
  SPEAKER_00: Cena McCullough, who has uncovered a very interesting thing.
• 0:33
  SPEAKER_00: I'm really fascinated to see what she's uncovered this week.
• 0:36
  SPEAKER_00: I hope she will be too.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_00: You know, we've all heard that, well, just label it.
• 0:40
  SPEAKER_00: If you just label it, label it, then you know, people will understand and they'll they'll shop accordingly on a label.
• 0:46
  SPEAKER_00: There's all sorts of uh of lobbying, you know, to get to get labels to say all sorts of things.
• 0:53
  SPEAKER_00: And and so Cena has found a study uh that that starts to question uh how powerful labeling is as a as a behavioral tool and so or as a marketing, you know, as a marketing technique.
• 1:13
  SPEAKER_00: And so I'm gonna turn the ball over to her court and let her kind of tell us what she's found here, and then we'll we'll uh talk about talk about the ramifications.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_00: So you know.
• 1:26
  SPEAKER_01: Thanks, Joel.
• 1:27
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, I had to share this study because I was actually surprised at the results.
• 1:33
  SPEAKER_01: So the this study was published in um Science Advances um in 2018.
• 1:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um and if you recall, this was just after Vermont's law was passed to um passed and implemented, where their state was requiring mandatory labeling of foods made through genetic engineering, right?
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_01: Or foods containing genetic, uh, genetically modified ingredients.
• 2:03
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a huge uproar amongst consumers about genetically engineered foods and were they safe to eat, and we want them to be labeled, right?
• 2:15
  SPEAKER_01: And if you remember in 2016, in that legislative session, there were 70 bills that were introduced in 25 different states that were addressing this labeling issue of should we actually label these genetically engineered foods?
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_01: Vermont was the only state that actually passed it.
• 2:33
  SPEAKER_01: They passed it in 2014.
• 2:35
  SPEAKER_01: This uh mandatory labeling of GMOs was implemented in 2016.
• 2:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then, of course, it was later um superseded, right, when Obama signed that federal legislation into law um in later July of 2016.
• 2:50
  SPEAKER_01: But here's the thing: there is a study conducted to see how the consumer's attitude towards genetically engineered foods changed before the mandated label and after the mandated label.
• 3:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:07
  SPEAKER_01: And what this study actually found was that in Vermont, when the mandatory labeling happened, it actually led to a decrease in their opposition to genetically engineered foods.
• 3:22
  SPEAKER_01: To be specific, it was a 19% decrease in opposition toward genetically engineered foods.
• 3:31
  SPEAKER_01: So it for me, I'm thinking, well, gosh, that's the opposite of what I would think, right?
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: Like now it's labeled.
• 3:38
  SPEAKER_01: Now you see how many foods actually have genetically engineered ingredients in it.
• 3:42
  SPEAKER_01: And that awareness, shouldn't that bring uh you know a feeling of, oh, I don't want to eat those foods?
• 3:48
  SPEAKER_00: Well, so Cena, so just to make sure I'm I'm following you here on the on the argument, um, this decrease in opposition, this 19% decrease in opposition, how did they measure that decrease in opposition?
• 4:00
  SPEAKER_00: In sales or uh what letters to the editor, or you know, uh, how was that opposition?
• 4:07
  SPEAKER_00: How was that decrease measured?
• 4:08
  SPEAKER_01: That's a great, great point.
• 4:10
  SPEAKER_01: So, this study, the reason I bring it up is because there's been hypothetical models for years about because the debate has been so strong, right?
• 4:19
  SPEAKER_01: Because predominantly the people who are for GMOs, they didn't want the stuff labeled because they were presuming it would be off-putting to the consumer and they would lose sales, right?
• 4:31
  SPEAKER_01: And then you got us who want to know what we're eating.
• 4:34
  SPEAKER_01: We want the transparency, we want it labeled.
• 4:35
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a there's been a huge debate, and there's been all these theoretical models put forward um supporting both sides.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 4:43
  SPEAKER_01: This was the first study that actually examined the real world impact of the consumer attitude towards these GMO foods.
• 4:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, the first study to examine the real world impact, and this is how they did it.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_01: They conducted phone surveys.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_01: They conducted them in Vermont and the rest of the United States.
• 5:04
  SPEAKER_01: And the phone surveys were done five times, three time periods before the mandatory labeling took effect, and then two time periods after the mandatory labeling took effect.
• 5:20
  SPEAKER_01: So they did it, they started in 2014 and they ended in 2017.
• 5:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and they also did this to correct for different demographics, they also used um five different models too.
• 5:36
  SPEAKER_01: Once they got the data, they tried five different models, um, and and the effect remains stable over all five of these models.
• 5:46
  SPEAKER_01: And what they saw was that based on these real world experiences, they say the study provides evidence that just a simple disclosure, and by simple disclosure, and this is really important, what they mean by that is on the label, it will say either produced using genetic engineering or produced a partially produced using genetic engineering.
• 6:14
  SPEAKER_01: So this is what's called a simple disclosure, and that's what Vermont voted to have on their food was a clear, simple disclosure.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 6:23
  SPEAKER_01: So this study says this study provides evidence that a simple disclosure is not likely to signal the consumer that genetically engineered foods are more risky, unsafe, or otherwise harmful than before label exposure, and in fact, could do the opposite.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: So what they said was this study could not identify why the change happened.
• 6:51
  SPEAKER_01: So they seem pretty surprised too that all of a sudden there's in Vermont, right?
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_01: And they even point that out in Vermont, potentially the most educated state on genetically modified organisms, the one who passed the law, once it was labeled, there's less opposition.
• 7:09
  SPEAKER_01: And they're like, why is this happening?
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: And the study says, we can't um, we can identify why this change occurred, but the findings are consistent with previous research suggesting that labels give consumers a sense of control, which has been shown to be related to risk perception.
• 7:27
  SPEAKER_01: Whether labels improve a sense of control, improve trust, or operate by some other psychological mechanism is a question that we leave to future research.
• 7:39
  SPEAKER_01: Here we showed that in the real world exposure to genetically engineered disclosure, attitude toward genetically engineered foods improved.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I thought this was fascinating.
• 7:51
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm sitting here and I'm thinking, why would this happen?
• 7:53
  SPEAKER_01: You know, and so this is what I came up with.
• 7:56
  SPEAKER_01: I was like, okay, maybe it has to do with informed consent, right?
• 8:00
  SPEAKER_01: The vote, the voters in Vermont, they wanted it to be labeled, they wanted the transparency.
• 8:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now that it's labeled, maybe there's less like negative emotion associated with the GMOs because they're assuming that if it's labeled, then there's less chance that they're gonna get duped into eating a genetically modified food, right?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_01: Because if it if it's labeled, then it's like, okay, that's that food.
• 8:27
  SPEAKER_01: The food that doesn't contain the label is safe for me to eat, right?
• 8:31
  SPEAKER_01: So I'm thinking maybe maybe that's why there's more of a, you know, less of a opposition to it.
• 8:36
  SPEAKER_01: So here's the thing: I tell my husband that, right?
• 8:40
  SPEAKER_01: Like we like to debate these things.
• 8:41
  SPEAKER_01: So I tell him my rationale.
• 8:43
  SPEAKER_01: And this, I wrote, I actually wrote down his quote.
• 8:46
  SPEAKER_01: This is what my husband said to me.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_01: I think it's so cute.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_01: Like my theory, right?
• 8:52
  SPEAKER_01: He thinks my theory is so cute and not at all what's happening.
• 9:00
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, he said he said that I'm a little too naive in my cute theory there.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_01: So this was his theory.
• 9:07
  SPEAKER_01: He said that maybe what happened was some of the consumers may have been scared or a little leery of GMOs.
• 9:15
  SPEAKER_01: Then the GMOs got labeled.
• 9:17
  SPEAKER_01: So then they're seeing it on all the foods that they've been eating for years.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then they think, well, if I've been eating it for a bunch of years already, and I feel fine, it's not a big deal.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_01: So it must not actually harm me.
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_01: So they just keep eating it.
• 9:34
  SPEAKER_01: Another theory he had is there, so both of these are rationalizing, right?
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_01: So another theory he said is, well, the person probably thinks like subconsciously, it's in everything that I eat, and I'm not changing every single thing that I eat.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_01: So it must not be all that bad, right?
• 9:51
  SPEAKER_01: I can see that scenario too, you know.
• 9:54
  SPEAKER_01: So so what I started to think was, okay, maybe he's right, you know, and then I started to think of well, well, this study ended in um in 2017, right?
• 10:08
  SPEAKER_01: And 20 2016 was when Obama signed that legislation into law where GMOs had to be labeled on a national level, right?
• 10:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that went into effect in 2022.
• 10:28
  SPEAKER_01: So I started thinking, is there data to show what's happened now?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 10:34
  SPEAKER_01: We're now into 2024.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_01: Now, not just Vermont, but there's this national requirement to label.
• 10:43
  SPEAKER_01: So has our nationwide attitude toward genetic engineering also improved, right?
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_01: Have we decreased the opposition?
• 10:54
  SPEAKER_01: And here's one thing that I was I was looking at.
• 10:57
  SPEAKER_01: In the Vermont study, it was very important that it was a simple disclosure, right?
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly stated on the label, derived from genetically engineered um ingredients, right?
• 11:10
  SPEAKER_01: Or produced using genetic engineering, produced using genetic engineering.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_01: Very simple disclosure.
• 11:16
  SPEAKER_00: But what we got in this Cena, just for those for those of us who aren't who aren't uh scientists in the in this community, what would be a complex disclosure?
• 11:26
  SPEAKER_00: If that's a simple disclosure, give me an example of a complex disclosure.
• 11:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, perfect lead in because a complex disclosure is what we got on the national level, right?
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_01: So so when Obama signed that into law, there was actually uh, and we talked about this in a podcast previously, that people were rejoicing.
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_01: Oh, wow, we won.
• 11:51
  SPEAKER_01: Now GMOs have to be labeled, right?
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_01: And Joel, I remember, I don't know, a couple years ago, maybe we broke this down.
• 11:58
  SPEAKER_01: It's actually not a very, it's not simple whatsoever.
• 12:03
  SPEAKER_01: They don't even call it genetic engineering.
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_01: It's like um, I think it's called bioengineering now.
• 12:09
  SPEAKER_01: And there's different ways in which a manufacturer manufacturer can label the product.
• 12:18
  SPEAKER_01: So you don't even have to say GMOs or genetically modified organisms on it.
• 12:23
  SPEAKER_01: You could just says bioengineered.
• 12:25
  SPEAKER_01: You can have a little label, like a it's it's a little like green and white, um, or I think it can also be black and white, but it's a little um picture.
• 12:35
  SPEAKER_01: You can also put a phone number on there where somebody has to text in order to find out the answer.
• 12:44
  SPEAKER_01: You can also put like one of those QR codes on it, so you have to scan it with like your smartphone and then figure out the answer from scanning it, right?
• 12:56
  SPEAKER_01: So it's not um, so that's a complex label.
• 12:59
  SPEAKER_01: When you can't just look at it and it says produce using genetic engineering, when you have to follow it a trail, when you got to text something, when you got to scan it on your phone and figure it out, you know, when you have to look for a different name now, that's a complex, um, that's a complex label.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: It's not clear.
• 13:17
  SPEAKER_00: Of course, all of us love to do that kind of thing because it'll dump you into another database so you can get advertising in your email and on your uh phone apps uh because now you've you've you've expressed interest in a certain uh uh kind of thing, and so those algorithms go out there into the universe and suddenly you get besieged by more um junk junk marketing.
• 13:46
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yeah, and you know, and and you get on the lists, yeah, yeah, right.
• 13:52
  SPEAKER_01: Which I'm on many of those based on what I research, right?
• 13:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yes, yes.
• 13:57
  SPEAKER_01: So so that was my interest.
• 13:59
  SPEAKER_01: How has our national disposition changed now that we have this label?
• 14:04
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and so lo and behold, there's a new study that did come out in 2023, and um actually one of the authors is the same for both study, both studies, and um they're looking at uh similar results.
• 14:20
  SPEAKER_01: Um they they did combine some of the results from Vermont.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_01: So what they did was they studied between 2018 and 2023.
• 14:31
  SPEAKER_01: Same thing.
• 14:32
  SPEAKER_01: They looked at like 3,000 respondents, and they looked at um people in the state of Vermont, and they're looking again to see did your support change over time?
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: And what they also did this time, Joel, that was really interesting, is they broke out different categories of genetically engineered foods.
• 14:52
  SPEAKER_01: So they broke it into like crop resistance to pest and weeds.
• 14:58
  SPEAKER_01: And then a second group was resistance to drought or viruses.
• 15:01
  SPEAKER_01: A third group was resistance to browning, like that apple.
• 15:05
  SPEAKER_01: Remember the non-browning apple that we got and the non-browning potatoes.
• 15:09
  SPEAKER_01: The fourth group was superior growth in fish.
• 15:12
  SPEAKER_01: Remember aqua bounty, the salmon?
• 15:14
  SPEAKER_01: So that was the fourth category.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_01: So this time they asked for their overall attitude towards GMOs and also these individual categories to see if there is a difference.
• 15:26
  SPEAKER_01: And there actually was a difference.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_01: I want to let people know right off the bat, like appease people here, that the study said many consumers remain more opposed than supportive of the use of GMO technology.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so we still have more people opposed than we have support.
• 15:47
  SPEAKER_01: However, in that time period from 2018 to 2023, there was an increase in overall support for the use of genetically modified foods.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: The increase was um a 35% increase when you're looking at the average scoring.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a decrease in opposition in that time period.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_01: Now the um the main opposition remains towards the engineering of fish, right?
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_01: That was a big one.
• 16:26
  SPEAKER_01: People do not want their animals messed with.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_01: So that one people are least in favor of.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_01: It did show that support to prevent drought and viruses had a positive support.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: So this is the one that changed the most, okay?
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_01: People don't want their, like I said, people don't want the fish messed with their animals messed with.
• 16:49
  SPEAKER_01: They did have an increased support for the preventing the drought and the viruses.
• 16:54
  SPEAKER_01: That moved up to a positive support.
• 16:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it still overall was between neutral and somewhat supportive.
• 17:02
  SPEAKER_01: So all the other categories, even though there's an improvement in support, it was still categorized as neither support nor oppose.
• 17:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so so basically indifferent, but this one category of preventing drought and viruses has moved to between neutral and somewhat supportive.
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: And that may be in part to um, and they they talk about this in the study, that may be in part due to COVID, right?
• 17:31
  SPEAKER_01: And having food scarcity, the virus thing, but having fear that your food may actually run out, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but anyhow, overall they said there's been a movement toward being more supportive.
• 17:45
  SPEAKER_01: It peaked in the COVID year, but it's still higher than it was in 2018.
• 17:50
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's increased overall, with the exception of not wanting to support these aqua bounty fish.
• 17:58
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I thought this was fascinating.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_01: One of the when they looked over here, they were trying to figure out why this is happening.
• 18:06
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:07
  SPEAKER_01: And so uh I'm loath to say that Donnie was correct.
• 18:11
  SPEAKER_01: I was wrong.
• 18:13
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they say on here that one of one thing that they think happened is that people have experienced products that contained ingredients made from these crops without experiencing individual harm.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_01: That gives you increased familiarity, right?
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_01: It leads to this positive consumer habituation and less opposition.
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, they're seeing that it's in all these foods that they're already eating.
• 18:36
  SPEAKER_01: They're don't they don't chalk it up as they're sick or they're feeling bad, right, Joel?
• 18:41
  SPEAKER_01: Because sick is the new norm.
• 18:42
  SPEAKER_01: So even though I would say they, you know, most likely they're having symptoms, they're on the autoimmune continuum, they don't think they're sick because sick is the new norm.
• 18:52
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're gonna go ahead and continue eating them because they've habituated to it.
• 18:57
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 18:58
  SPEAKER_01: Another reason why is that they're saying that uh consumers may actually be more accepting of the newer gene editing techniques.
• 19:09
  SPEAKER_01: So they're calling these things like gene editing, right?
• 19:13
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of like genetic engineering or genetic modification.
• 19:17
  SPEAKER_01: And oftentimes they're not referring to them at all as GMOs.
• 19:21
  SPEAKER_01: So what they're saying is people, they say people may not make the distinction between the semantics of genetic modification versus gene editing.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 19:32
  SPEAKER_01: This is the same thing I was just saying, where this label is now complicated and it's less transparent because instead of saying it's bio, you know, like it's it's gene, it's genetic engineering or it's GMOs, genetic modification, the new label is bioengineered.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_01: That when you what they've done there, Joel, is they've taken out genetics, they've taken out genes, right?
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_01: It's no longer genetic engineering um or genetically modified organism, which people can actually relate to that.
• 20:09
  SPEAKER_01: It does tend to trigger more of a fear response because we've all heard of genes.
• 20:14
  SPEAKER_01: We all know how important genes are, and we talk about genetically, you know, diseases being passed down on our genes.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: And we love engineers because engineers give us, you know, highways and cars and indoor plumbing.
• 20:30
  SPEAKER_00: Exactly.
• 20:31
  SPEAKER_01: Bio doesn't sound harmful, bio is like biology, right?
• 20:35
  SPEAKER_01: So it's bio-engineered, and it actually makes it more natural.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: Bio is biology, it's a more natural thing.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_01: So bio-engineered, they they basically made it into what sounds like more of a catch-all group, right?
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_01: It is a larger, larger, broader category.
• 20:51
  SPEAKER_01: So that has also seemingly quelched some fear amongst people.
• 20:56
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and so they're more receptive, less in opposition to GMOs.
• 21:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and now this is another one, two more that I want to share, and then I'm gonna toss it over to you.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_01: They did say that that um there could be information overload, right?
• 21:15
  SPEAKER_01: Like on the on the food.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_01: I have one right here.
• 21:17
  SPEAKER_01: You look at this box of this um, this is grain-free cassava elbow pasta.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: There's all these labels all over it.
• 21:27
  SPEAKER_01: Every single part of this has wording on it.
• 21:30
  SPEAKER_01: Everything has wording all over this box, you know?
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And like moms do most of the shopping.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_01: And if we're in that grocery store with our kids, I tell you what, Joel, when I'm in there with my three year old, I'm just trying to prevent her from grabbing glass containers and dropping them off the shelves, you know?
• 21:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like I'm not, I'm not a luxury to sit there and and read every single thing that's on each label.
• 21:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so what they're saying is even if you could sit there and read the whole label of this product, it could be.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: information overload that leads to quote confusion over risks, benefits, reasons to support, et cetera.
• 22:07
  SPEAKER_01: So um this is really true.
• 22:10
  SPEAKER_01: I wanted to bring up actually this this example specifically because this is one that I missed.
• 22:18
  SPEAKER_01: When I looked at this, I was like, oh, okay, these are organic and they're grain free.
• 22:24
  SPEAKER_01: And they have the trio that we talk about.
• 22:27
  SPEAKER_01: They have the USDA organic label.
• 22:29
  SPEAKER_01: It has the non-GMO project label and it has the um glyphosate residue free label from the detox project, right?
• 22:37
  SPEAKER_01: It's got my trio right there.
• 22:39
  SPEAKER_01: And then when I looked at the ingredients, it's just organic cassava flour and water.
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 22:45
  SPEAKER_01: And so I'm like score this is something that I can eat.
• 22:48
  SPEAKER_01: I can feed my family.
• 22:50
  SPEAKER_01: It should it should be clean.
• 22:51
  SPEAKER_01: No glyphosate no GMOs okay but check this out um there's actually if you flip the box over to the other side there's actually this little warning box consuming this product can expose you to lead which is known to the state of California to cause birth defects or other reproductive harm.
• 23:14
  SPEAKER_01: Cassava is a tuberous root that naturally pulls lead from the soil.
• 23:20
  SPEAKER_01: So I looked it up I was like what?
• 23:24
  SPEAKER_01: Because cassava is used in a lot of grain free baking right I mean it's used it's because it makes things bendy so it's great for noodles it's great for tortilla shells for instance and I didn't actually see that right I looked for my trio I read the ingredient label score I got it put it in my cart.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_01: It wasn't until my girlfriend said oh my goodness I just saw there's a lawsuit for some cassava producers because kids are getting sick from the heavy metals in it.
• 23:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm like are you kidding me?
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: So I took this out looked at the label it's right there on the label and I didn't notice I got duped by that.
• 24:07
  SPEAKER_01: So when this when this study is saying hey there could be information overload on these products I'm thinking yes yes there is and I mean thank goodness because they they triggered me to that because here you go we're not eating that anymore.
• 24:22
  SPEAKER_01: And then the the last reason why is something that they're calling leakage.
• 24:27
  SPEAKER_01: There can be leakage from acceptance of a particular novel concept to another to further you know to further support the decrease in the resistance to GMOs.
• 24:38
  SPEAKER_01: This is exactly what you and I talked about with the purple tomato right that's what one of the like it was like the VP or something I don't know if you a CEO one of the heads of that operation remember we quoted and he was saying that if we can get them if we can get people to like the fact that this genetically modified organism actually provides them with a personalized nutritive benefit it will open the door to other products in the future that's exactly what this study is citing here and that's called leakage.
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 25:17
  SPEAKER_01: I mean it's crazy.
• 25:19
  SPEAKER_01: And then I did find they cite this other study I'm gonna toss it to you Joel to see what you think about this because I thought to myself okay there's all these reasons they're coming up with but how many people are actually looking at the labels right I mean how many people do you know actually read the labels so there is these there was another study that came out just recently it piggybacked on this study looking at these Vermont um the the Vermont consumer again right the very well educated consumers in the food supply this study said that only about a third of everybody who they studied actually saw the label.
• 26:01
  SPEAKER_01: Only a third of them saw that GMO part on the label and other studies have cooperated that it's somewhere around 30% of people actually see that label.
• 26:11
  SPEAKER_01: Okay now when they looked further into it for 96% of the people the label didn't matter it didn't make uh a difference in terms of their decision to buy it or to not buy it so that means only there was only four percent of people who saw the label and paused okay of those four percent two percent said I'm not gonna eat that genetically engineered food the other two percent said I don't care I'm gonna eat it anyway okay so now we're down to a third of people are actually using the label they're actually seeing it and only two percent have changed their purchasing based on that label like what right like what happened to the power of the label and and this is why we say you have to go beyond the label anyway like there are people most people aren't even paying attention to the label.
• 27:13
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah it's so um this is this is really good stuff you know because um yeah it it it comes down to well to you know to assumptions obviously you know we we just some things seem so obvious it just seems obvious that if people have more information they'll make better decisions that that you know that just seems axiomatic how how can you say and be me I mean look at look at censorship I mean you know you and I are both extremely opposed to censorship um I'm I'm so opposed to it I even think I don't think there should be any um no reason if somebody if somebody wants to put up how to build how how to build a bomb on the internet fine you know um if somebody wants to put up hate speech fine at least you know they're prejudiced okay I mean that that's how far I am on it um but but um you know this this uh this label thing that just you know how much do you have to disclose and when does it become just so much clutter clutter in your life that even subconsciously you say enough already um and and and is almost like death by a thousand cuts you know you you you just you just keep keep loading on loading on loading on information to where people just get you know get overloaded and and and that's why you know I I can tell people if you ever look at a a polyface label it doesn't say anything it makes no claims doesn't say anything why because we we understand that ultimately we either make decisions because we don't know anything or we make decisions because we know a lot and we trust and we trust an outfit so we we rely on you know on on non-label relational information and story to be able to um you know to be able to to get people to to buy but um I I think all four of these they certainly all make sense to me and especially especially the well I haven't been sick yet so it must be okay and I mean that remember the there's a there's a long lag on these kinds of things I mean take take mad cow you know bovine sponge deform encephalopathy that took that took about 30 you know 30 years from and I know there'll be maybe some people that want to debate me on whether it was really caused by cows eating dead cows.
• 30:03
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know I don't know but but that I mean that's the official narrative so let's just go with the official narrative it took roughly 30 years for that practice that brand brand new practice to show up you know in in in health uh take ddt you know how long did it take to link ddt to eagle eagle eggs that wouldn't crack that wouldn't hatch um it took you know 25 30 years and and so there you know nature's very forgiving actually it it it it it wants life it wants you know it it wants to perform uh I mean this is a the you know the the the nature's nature's theater is a great big play that wants to succeed and uh and there's a there's a long lag time but boy as a as a as a study in human behavior and psychology and messaging uh this is a this is a fascinating uh um fascinating whatever finding you know uh people put so much faith in a label that boy that's gonna that's gonna change our whole uh society and um yeah most moms are just trying to keep their kids out of the from knocking a jar off the shelf and you know that's the reality of our lives and then and then we're so besieged I mean we don't you know we don't even have time to read our emails anymore because we get so much junk and you're trying to figure out which ones to delete delete delete delete oop I've just deleted that one I didn't want to delete that one now I got to figure out how to keep it get it back and we're we're just in this this frenzied you know frantic uh hurried harried kind of um kind of mentality that that keeps us from being able to slow down stop make an intentional decision about something because we have to quickly get on to something else yeah you know another reason recently that came to my attention for why there might be some like decrease in opposition for genet toward genetic engineering is inflation you know I have a lot of friends that they're opposed to GMOs but now with inflation you know food prices going up everything seems to be more expensive and they're at a point where they're in the grocery store and they're seeing those prices and they can't afford it.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're having to make an exception here or an exception there.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_01: Like to instead of choosing the organic they're having to choose the conventional and you know when you're faced with that situation where you're like well I I literally just can't afford to feed my family if I unless I buy the conventional one you do start to kind of rationalize it in your mind right you get it's just gonna be one product it's just one product and the rest all get organic.
• 33:15
  SPEAKER_01: Well then you guys eat that one product and it's like oh we we're okay we saved money and we we seem to be okay.
• 33:22
  SPEAKER_01: So then they go to the store the next time I'm just gonna get two products because look at how much more money I saved by getting that product.
• 33:28
  SPEAKER_00: And this is happening in real time with with a lot of my friends and like and I don't say that with judgment there's no judgment you know you got to do what's right for your family you know what it what you can afford um but it is kind of that slippery slope and so through that rationalization process you they are be developing less opposition to the GMOs kind of out of survival you know yeah yeah and and so so I think you'd agree with me that the real answer if you if you start looking at what's the real answer it is um buying way less processed food uh get in your kitchen get in your kitchen and use whole foods I didn't say the whole foods grocery I meant the whole you know whole unprocessed foods and um I mean right now right now you can buy you can buy one of our whole chickens for less than boneless skinless breast at Walmart yeah and and and so so when you start when you start looking at um you know at processed food and especially ultra processed food you start looking at that that pricing um I mean my favorite was uh years ago I've shared I don't know if I've shared this story on on our Beyond Labels podcast or not but one of my one of my favorite stories I was I had just written folks this ain't normal and I was up on a book tour in New York City and I asked um the the editor of the book she and I were together I said she wanted to take me down to the green markets the green markets in New York arguably it's the most there this is the most expensive farmer's market in the world uh middle of New York City green market so she says sure sure we'll go down so went down to the green markets I said I know what I want you to do um her name was Kate I said Kate take me to the most expensive potato in the New York City green market she says oh I know just the guy so we're winding through you know the people and we go to this farmer's stand and it was like a work of art it was like a sculpture he had about 30 uh credenzas with all these different kinds of potatoes yellow ones red ones blue ones green ones white ones different shapes and sizes and all this and he had prices on each one of them you could reach in and you know and get and get potatoes out of whatever little box little credenza you wanted to reach into and uh so I'm looking and looking at and so I found the most expensive one it was like$1.50 a pound and it was a Peruvian a Peruvian blue potato it looked all gnarly and all this you know it was like something out of a a hobbit house and uh and and it was a blue gnarly potato and and and so this thing is$1.50 a pound most expensive potato in the most expensive market in the world and across the street was a grocery store and they had you know 50 feet 50 feet of multi-tiered shelving holding potato chips that are$1.99 a pound and trust me they probably sell more potato chips off those shelves in a day than this farmer sells you know Peruvian blue potatoes in a year.
• 36:51
  SPEAKER_00: And then if you went down to his cheapest potatoes the cheapest ones were you know I don't know uh 69 cents a pound 79 cents a pound whatever I mean we're talking about you know 35% the price of potato chips well with a little bit of ingenuity and a and a deep a deep fryer and a little bit of yard law yard lard and uh and a you know and a slicer dice or uh gizmo from cuisin art um you can quickly make potato chips your kids will die for oh yeah they're actually nutritional and they're great food and your kids will jump up around the counter to watch the magic of a homemade potato chip made and and I think you and I are on the same page ultimately that's that's where we want to go then we then we go clear past the whole label thing we go clear past and and we've now we've now saved a huge amount of money because we're actually leveraging our our techno glitzy kitchen gadgets and our own culinary skill and making exciting theater in our home I love that I'm gonna start calling my house this is the exciting theater over here like here's the matinee price for you know that's right it's true my we make our own potato chips and my kids love it.
• 38:19
  SPEAKER_01: They think I mean and it tastes so much better right like hot out of that oil it tastes so much better than the ones in the bag but we've done the same like with inflation happening happening um our diet has actually gotten even healthier because we're eating just more and more whole foods and I'm just telling my kids well here like showing them the budgeting like you just broke it down you know like the price per pound or the price per ounce when needed uh so you're teaching them math at the same time and budgeting skills um and and so they're seeing why we're making these different decisions instead of just you know saying we're not buying that anymore we're buying this right and so my kids have gotten on board with it because we're explaining the why and because we're making it fun in the kitchen.
• 39:03
  SPEAKER_01: I mean they're in there now every day helping me make different crock pot dinners and whatnot.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't worry about the label the genetically engineered label because I'm not you know I'm not buying those foods and well not anymore now that there's heavy metals in that cassava noodle right so I told the kids I'm like I'm sorry your noodle's gone they were really upset about that because they like that's like the noodle that they like but I told them I was like you know we can just create our own we'll create our own we're gonna do I told them we're gonna do spaghetti squash and they're like so that's our next thing like but they do like how it looks right to come out when you make the spaghetti squash it comes out as noodles anyhow I I think it's it's fascinating but um but the point is with this one to me it was think of all the time I I know we're trying to wrap up here too but think of all the time that people spend on on these even just the genetically engineered labels not not just behind creating the label right and all our tax dollars that went toward the bureaucracy creating the regulation behind this non-transparent label with all these loopholes oh goodness we didn't even get into the loopholes Joel but that's on a different podcast check that out if you want like you know I mean we go through like if if it's the third ingredient on that label it doesn't have to even if it has GMOs it doesn't have to be labeled like all the nuances right non-transparent label all of that time effort tax dollars that went into that but also all the time and effort and money that's spent on both sides debating the labels right we don't we want it labeled we don't want it labeled like and to come to find out it's not really even making a difference like it's not making a difference and there's still loopholes in it so you're still going to be getting some foods that contain genetically modified ingredients even though they don't have to disclose it like what a waste you know like yeah well Cena that that that's exactly where I am with the whole uh or organic uh standard program I said you know what if the amount of of time and investment and energy jet setting across the country and having all this brouhaha about a uh an organic labor all of that if all of that had been devoted to freeing up farmers like me to be able to sell directly to to consumers from our farm uh without all the you know the the the regulatory structure um I think we'd be way farther along in in a in a sustainable food system than we are today but that's probably another topic for another podcast all right we're gonna end we're we're gonna end here with um I think you're gonna pose a question uh for our for our I like I like where you were going with that I was just gonna say Joe that's our community question for the week you you pose it that's a great question okay so so so the the so the question is so the question is if all of the time and effort that had been that been that was expended and it was it was massive Cena I mean I mean I watched this happen I lived through it um the all the the meetings and the jet trips and the everything uh to get the organic label if if all of that effort had been devoted to creating a a simple parallel universe to let me you know butcher a chicken and sell it to a neighbor or sell a glass of raw milk to a neighbor or make a chicken pot pie and sell it to a neighbor without wrapping it in a$2000 uh you know government permitted facility where would we be where would we be in our food system right now if we had embraced a more liberty oriented marketing strategy for neighbor to neighbor food commerce rather than another government agency to create another level of licensing and compliance for the organic sector.
• 43:15
  SPEAKER_01: I like time management questions always looking at how I can be more efficient and effective um so I can have more time to play and rest.
• 43:24
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah there you go good thanks for bringing these studies to our our our attention here Cena and uh fascinating fascinating discussion on on labels wow this is really profound uh we thank all of you for uh joining us again for another Beyond Labels podcast if you like this if this is exciting for you uh tell your friends and um and and let our let our community and let our um uh let our dialogue grow to other people we think we think that this is beneficial for our culture especially right now and uh we're glad to invade your space you letting us give permission to invade your space uh once a week to do this and if you think this might be helpful to a friend uh please pass it on to them thanks for joining us on the Beyond Labels podcast we look forward to seeing you next week