Latest / We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits / 558. How It's Built: Impactful + Modern Websites for Our Organizations - David Hartstein

Transcript

558. How It's Built: Impactful + Modern Websites for Our Organizations - David Hartstein · We Are For Good Podcast - The Podcast for Nonprofits

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: Hi friends, welcome back to how it's Built, a series where we explore the intricate and often overlooked elements that go into crafting impactful change brought to you by our friends at Allegiance Group and Pursuant.
• 0:12
  Speaker 3: Yes, they're fueling nonprofit missions with innovative solutions in digital ads websites technology, analytics, direct mail and even digital fundraising too, if you need a partner in amplifying your brand, expanding your reach and fostering that unwavering donor loyalty.
• 0:39
  Speaker 1: Visit teamallegiancecom and be more for the causes that improve our world.
• 0:42
  Speaker 2: We're here to learn with you from some of the best in the industry, bringing the most innovative ideas, inspirational stories, all to create an impact uprising.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: So welcome to the good community.
• 0:52
  Speaker 1: We're nonprofit professionals, philanthropists, world changers and rabid fans who are striving to bring a little more goodness into the world.
• 1:02
  Speaker 3: So let's, get started, becky, what's happening?
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: Favorite human alert in the house right now.
• 1:09
  Speaker 3: I love when we stack the deck, not with just somebody that's completely brilliant about the topic, but somebody that has poured into this community, that has a huge heart for community, that is literally like living and breathing all of this work and he's sharing all of his knowledge on LinkedIn too.
• 1:22
  Speaker 3: So it is a huge honor today to introduce you to David Hartstein.
• 1:26
  Speaker 3: He's the co-founder over at Wired Impact and if you're not following what Wired Impact's doing I mean they're honed in on building websites specifically for nonprofits.
• 1:33
  Speaker 3: They're based in St Louis.
• 1:34
  Speaker 3: They were just hosting an impact up in St Louis.
• 1:37
  Speaker 3: We got to talk about that and celebrate that a little bit too, my friend.
• 1:39
  Speaker 3: But let me tell you a little bit about David.
• 1:41
  Speaker 3: He is Wired Impact's strategy and measurement guy.
• 1:45
  Speaker 3: You know we love people that come into this work with strategy knowing what the real, bigger, better question is.
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: So he spends a lot of his time developing marketing strategies aimed at turning casual visitors into active supporters.
• 1:56
  Speaker 3: He's a firm believer that good marketing doesn't exist in a vacuum Thank you so much and he works to uncover opportunities within websites to help missions do more in their community.
• 2:04
  Speaker 3: He's also a self-professed data nerd.
• 2:10
  Speaker 3: He enjoys spending time sifting through data and determining what's working well.
• 2:12
  Speaker 3: So, friends, this is a how it's Built episode.
• 2:13
  Speaker 3: So we've asked David not only because he's this amazing community rallier in our space, but because he's going to walk us through how do you build a really effective, impactful website?
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: If you're looking at this, this needs to be on your radar.
• 2:25
  Speaker 3: But, friends, we're also going to have David connect a little bit of his story, because not only does he have a degree from WashU that's his undergrad this journey took him around the world.
• 2:33
  Speaker 3: He went to South Africa, he made this documentary that we're going to ask him about as well, but also he had a career, a master's degree in early childhood education that took him to Brooklyn.
• 2:43
  Speaker 3: So he's had all these really interesting experiences.
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: He's planted back in St Louis.
• 2:47
  Speaker 3: He's pouring into the community there, he's got this beautiful family and he loves the Cardinals, of course.
• 2:52
  Speaker 3: So we got to talk about all the things, david to have you in the house means the world.
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: Good to see you, my friend.
• 2:57
  Speaker 3: Welcome to the we Are For Good podcast.
• 2:59
  Speaker 4: Thank you so much for inviting me and all the kind words.
• 3:02
  Speaker 4: That means truly the world to me, so I'm very excited to be here today with both of you Well thanks, my friend.
• 3:07
  Speaker 3: It's been great getting to know you the last few months and just how you showed up for the St Louis.
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: I got to just really point it out, like the only way the impact up happened is because people raised their hand and said, hey, I'm willing to do this.
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: You're you know that is not your main job.
• 3:21
  Speaker 3: You're doing this because you wanted to connect community and that's the kind of human that you are.
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: So really thank you for the way you've poured in and I just want to get to know you on it the podcast community, to get to know you today.
• 3:30
  Speaker 3: Take us a little bit to your story.
• 3:32
  Speaker 3: You know what led you to the work that you're doing today.
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: Take us back.
• 3:47
  Speaker 4: I feel, like most people in the, to have amazing role models of what it meant to be philanthropic and open-minded and big-hearted.
• 3:55
  Speaker 4: And I remember one of my grandmas just always volunteering her time and really sharing with us as kids why she was doing that and why these causes meant so much to her.
• 4:05
  Speaker 4: And another one of my grandmas, my baba, was the first woman to be president of her synagogue and my folks were just always welcoming and open-minded to people that were different and that just really wove that into the fabric of our upbringing.
• 4:20
  Speaker 4: And I think all of that, coupled with having just amazing role models as teachers, which influenced my ultimately getting into education.
• 4:29
  Speaker 4: It just sort of instilled in me this idea that you don't need an invitation to change your piece of the world, to wait for someone's permission.
• 4:41
  Speaker 4: You can just go out and try and solve it.
• 4:44
  Speaker 4: And I think that, coupled with, I as a kid, grew up with just some chronic illnesses that were the type of thing that weren't always present but would sometimes flare up and sometimes really impact my life and, you know like sometimes to the point where I wouldn't be able to walk that well or get dressed on my own.
• 5:06
  Speaker 4: And the reason I mentioned that is.
• 5:07
  Speaker 4: I think a lot of people have these sort of health scares at points in their life where it really puts things in perspective and makes them appreciate the little sort of everyday things.
• 5:17
  Speaker 4: And I feel like in a lot of ways, I was fortunate to have that when I was eight and so I've just sort of carried this perspective of not only appreciating the moment but also wanting to use however long I have here in this life to do something that I feel like matters and is meaningful.
• 5:34
  Speaker 4: And you know, I just I think that that has really shaped a lot of my worldview and so just kind of out here trying to do that in whatever way I can.
• 5:44
  Speaker 4: So, like I mentioned, taking a lot of different twists and turns over the years, been involved in a variety of amazing nonprofits and social good organizations and then taught kindergarten for a little while in Brooklyn, like you mentioned, and today that's really happening at Wired Impact.
• 6:00
  Speaker 4: So just trying to just fundamentally change the way that nonprofits build websites and just make website technology easier and less daunting and more accessible.
• 6:12
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, I know we're going to get into the website side of things a whole lot more in the conversation ahead, but that's kind of a brief overview of my winding journey to the social goods space.
• 6:21
  Speaker 4: My winding journey to the social good space.
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: David, you share that story and I just really sit in the awe of it and just I'm sitting here thinking in my head like we are so lucky, john, that we have a platform to meet humans like David and there are so many of you out there.
• 6:41
  Speaker 1: I'm sure there's so many heads nodding as David's telling his story going.
• 6:45
  Speaker 1: Yeah, that really resonates.
• 6:46
  Speaker 1: I kind of went through that too.
• 6:47
  Speaker 1: I mean, my grandma, my Nona, lived in St Louis, you know, and did so many of those same things, and you know, I struggled with some chronic health issues when I was a kid as well, and I just I think that when we're vulnerable, when we follow our nudges, when we live this sort of authentic life and we lean into that nudge of, oh, I can change this.
• 7:13
  Speaker 1: Right now, I'm like really fixated on this point of if you see something, be that change, like anyone can do it with such little random acts, and so I think we're going to have such a brilliant conversation.
• 7:26
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're coming for the websites you're getting the humanity is icing on the cake.
• 7:29
  Speaker 1: But I want to dive into this topic of websites and want to give a shout out to Allegiant and Pursuit Group, who sponsored this incredible series and really appreciate that we can have these conversations and share them for free on this platform.
• 7:44
  Speaker 1: But before we get into the super tactical and break down this playbook, we really want to talk about impact, talk about the opportunity that exists for organizations today regarding our websites, because they're not just these monolithic, standalone things that stand in the virtual space.
• 8:04
  Speaker 1: They are the literal connection tools to our stories, to our people.
• 8:10
  Speaker 1: It is the way we onboard someone into the movement, into the mission, and they're critical and vital.
• 8:17
  Speaker 1: Walk through that opportunity for us and tell us what's kind of there for the taking that you see.
• 8:22
  Speaker 4: I mean you're so right, becky, that they are these critical moments in people's journeys with our causes.
• 8:29
  Speaker 4: A lot of times the way I sort of think about it is you don't know at what point in the journey someone is going to end up on your website, but that first moment that they do is often what I call a linchpin moment, just a really, really important moment in their journey of connecting with your cause.
• 8:46
  Speaker 4: And the challenging thing is websites are very much a choose your own adventure type of experience right, you don't know who they are.
• 8:55
  Speaker 4: You don't know what page they're going to land on, you don't know what challenge brought them to your site today, but we have to meet them where they're at and we have to engage them and we have to share what makes our movement so beautiful so that they are moved to get involved.
• 9:11
  Speaker 4: And so, in terms of what makes websites so important, I mean you hear it all the time, right, that your website is your storefront to the world, but for so many non-profits, they are so busy out there actually changing the world that that website ends up as sort of a backburner project and I would say even marketing efforts more broadly.
• 9:31
  Speaker 4: Right, and I totally get why it happens.
• 9:33
  Speaker 4: There's no judgment in this, I totally understand it.
• 9:37
  Speaker 4: But it becomes one of those we'll get to it when we have more time kind of projects and, as we all know, there's never more time.
• 9:44
  Speaker 4: The illusion of more time existing down the road just doesn't often pan out in the social good space, and so oftentimes folks put their website project down until things get really dire.
• 9:56
  Speaker 4: You know their website is hacked or something breaks or they have a big event coming up and they're to the point where they're embarrassed to even share their website.
• 10:06
  Speaker 4: It's actively like working against them engaging their community and we hear it.
• 10:15
  Speaker 4: we hear it all the time.
• 10:16
  Speaker 4: So many of the conversations we're having with folks is we have this big campaign coming up and I can't even send my website to a visitor because it doesn't do our cause justice.
• 10:25
  Speaker 4: We're doing this amazing work and that's not reflected on the website.
• 10:31
  Speaker 4: And to go back to that sort of storefront, to the world analogy, if you had a physical space, you would sweep it, you would clean it, you would replace broken lights and broken windows and make sure everything looked nice for visitors.
• 10:46
  Speaker 4: And we just often don't really do that with our websites.
• 10:49
  Speaker 4: And so you know, I think part of the first step in really getting the most out of our sites in general is just changing our mindset around the way that we build websites, the way that we maintain websites and the critical role that they're going to play in our visitor journey and then really just kind of committing to treating it as that, that ongoing um, flexible tool in our toolkit, that I should say that that dynamic tool in our toolkit, one that's going to adapt with the way that we serve our community and really should be changing all the time as our um, as the way that we engage with our community, evolves.
• 12:07
  Speaker 3: David, I mean you were such a great teacher.
• 12:09
  Speaker 3: I feel the care that wraps around the way that you walk.
• 12:13
  Speaker 3: You know folks through this process because I'm not going to lie, I literally told somebody yesterday I was like we will fix our website in like a couple of months.
• 12:22
  Speaker 1: That's why I felt, seen it was so funny.
• 12:24
  Speaker 3: Like it's just so relatable what you're saying and I think I want to, before we go into like the playbook.
• 12:30
  Speaker 3: I think this is such a great time to say what are the questions that we could be asking ourselves.
• 12:34
  Speaker 3: When is it ready for just like an evolution of our website?
• 12:38
  Speaker 3: When do we need to scrap the old one and start a new?
• 12:40
  Speaker 3: What are some good questions that can lead us to that?
• 12:44
  Speaker 4: It's a great question and it's a bit of a challenging one to answer, but there is a framework that we sort of operate within.
• 12:52
  Speaker 4: That at least helps us know where to start that conversation, and the way I think about it is coming at it through the lens of in an ideal world, what role should a website be playing in our organization?
• 13:03
  Speaker 4: And the three areas that a website should really actively be helping you is, first, it should be driving traffic or awareness for your cause and the work that you're doing.
• 13:14
  Speaker 4: Second is it should be driving conversions or meaningful actions from your visitors, engaging your community once they're on your website.
• 13:22
  Speaker 4: And the third and honestly one that's often overlooked is that it should be saving you time.
• 13:28
  Speaker 4: It should be saving your visitors time, it should be saving your organization time, and so we can dive into each of those in more depth and talk about how to do those things.
• 13:38
  Speaker 4: But where I like to start the conversation is really asking is our website helping to drive awareness?
• 13:44
  Speaker 4: Is our website engaging visitors?
• 13:46
  Speaker 4: Is our website saving us time?
• 13:49
  Speaker 4: And if the answer is no to any of those things, there's at least room for improvement, and that can be a nice jumping off point to know where you need to focus.
• 13:57
  Speaker 4: Maybe you're getting a bunch of traffic, but that traffic isn't converting.
• 14:00
  Speaker 4: Well, it sounds like you have an engagement problem.
• 14:02
  Speaker 4: Let's start focusing there.
• 14:03
  Speaker 4: Or we're getting traffic, people are engaging, but man, it just is a slog every time we need to make changes in our site.
• 14:14
  Speaker 4: Look for ways to really use it as a tool that's going to save us time and help us unlock more operational capacity within our organization.
• 14:21
  Speaker 4: So you know, if to your to your question about do we need to build a new website or improve our existing site, a lot of it comes down to how close you are to getting to a yes on those three questions.
• 14:37
  Speaker 4: If you're not that far away, you could probably improve your existing site and extend the lifetime of it.
• 14:45
  Speaker 4: If you're further away, it might end up being more cost-effective and time-effective to just start over and really be thoughtful about it from the ground up.
• 14:55
  Speaker 4: So a lot of it really does depend on the unique circumstances of each organization and where their website is, but hopefully that's a helpful framework to at least think about how to dive into answering that question.
• 15:08
  Speaker 1: I was today's years old when I thought about having a website that saves me time.
• 15:13
  Speaker 1: Like, literally, that is a total mindset shift, because I got to confess that I have been really wired into the second one because, as we're trying to think about how do we help missions grow movements, the engagement journey is just so important and the fact that people see themselves and they see others and there are steps along the way, the beacons that have them want to reach out and connect.
• 15:39
  Speaker 1: But, my gosh, we have to do it efficiently or we're going to burn out or we're not going to be able to do all the things.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: So I'm ready to get into this playbook, david.
• 15:49
  Speaker 1: We got our notes ready, so walk us through this roadmap that you have for how to build an impactful website for our orgs.
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: Where do we start and what are those core steps?
• 16:00
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 16:01
  Speaker 4: So first thing I would say is, if you are getting into building a new website, you're going to want to start with a roadmap.
• 16:06
  Speaker 4: First of all, be realistic about how much time and capacity you have to dedicate to the project, because a lot of picking the right approach is going to depend on not only your budget which a lot of people think about but also your capacity.
• 16:19
  Speaker 4: So I always push folks from the very outset to assign a dedicated point person who's going to be running point on the website project.
• 16:26
  Speaker 4: They don't necessarily have to do all the work themselves, but it's really important that they can do two things.
• 16:33
  Speaker 4: One is that they can carve out a meaningful chunk of their workload to actually dedicate to the website, as opposed to just dropping it on top of everything else they're already doing, because chances are they were not sitting around with a big window of time and they're wondering how do I fill this void in my workload?
• 16:52
  Speaker 4: And so carve out the time to actually dedicate to getting the website right.
• 16:55
  Speaker 4: And then the second is make sure that they have the authority to make the final call on decisions.
• 17:02
  Speaker 4: You know, it's great to involve power.
• 17:06
  Speaker 1: Yeah, well right.
• 17:07
  Speaker 4: It's coming back to impact up right.
• 17:09
  Speaker 4: It's great to involve other people on the team in writing content, in influencing decisions and design, you know, but at the end of the day, you need someone who's going to make a call, and typically it's the person that, in our experience, they should own not only the website project but also really be the one who feels like they know the community that you're trying to serve with the website, because they can make decisions not through the lens of the organization but through the lens of what our community needs from this tool that we're building.
• 17:43
  Speaker 4: So that's going to be a theme that I'm definitely going to circle back to as we thread throughout this, because, man, so many website issues are not actually tech issues.
• 17:55
  Speaker 4: So many of them are messaging issues.
• 17:58
  Speaker 4: Audience issues are just clarity of positioning within our organization types of issues that end up really being the disconnect between the website delivering the results that we're looking for.
• 18:11
  Speaker 4: One analogy that I use a lot is that the plates don't matter if you're serving steak to a vegetarian.
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: And so you really need to get a clean.
• 18:21
  Speaker 2: I think you're speaking John's language.
• 18:23
  Speaker 3: I know.
• 18:23
  Speaker 1: I actually think about you.
• 18:25
  Speaker 4: John, when I mention this sometimes because you know so many people get fixated on the plates and the tools that they're going to use.
• 18:32
  Speaker 4: But if you don't have a deep understanding of your audience and what they turn to you for and how you can help them, those plates don't matter.
• 18:42
  Speaker 4: You're not going to see the results, and so let's dive into each of those.
• 18:45
  Speaker 4: So, starting out with driving traffic, a lot of it really does come down to knowing your audience, and I always push folks to start out by identifying their primary audience.
• 18:56
  Speaker 4: I really push folks to say we're talking about one or two audiences maximum.
• 19:00
  Speaker 4: I know that's super hard, but if you're trying to speak to everyone, you end up speaking to no one, and we have seen that play out time and time again.
• 19:09
  Speaker 4: No one, and we have seen that play out time and time again.
• 19:14
  Speaker 4: You really want your most important visitors to know, without a doubt, that they've landed in the right place when they visit your website, that your movement was built with them in mind, and so getting really clear on who they are is such an important place to start.
• 19:26
  Speaker 4: You can have secondary audiences.
• 19:29
  Speaker 4: That's not to say you need to throw out all of those other folks that are really important to your movement.
• 19:34
  Speaker 4: But you just need to get really clear on primarily this is who we're building the website to target.
• 19:41
  Speaker 4: That's going to make so many other decisions that you make so much easier throughout the entire process.
• 19:46
  Speaker 4: And then, once you have those primary audiences identified, the next step is to dive really deep into their problems.
• 19:53
  Speaker 4: Just what challenges are they facing and how can you help in ways that other organizations can't?
• 20:00
  Speaker 4: This is what we call your differentiated value, and it's really what's going to help you stand out.
• 20:05
  Speaker 4: It's really what you should lean into in terms of your messaging, because these folks presumably are on your website because they're looking to make a difference in the world and are interested in your movement, and so really wrapping your messaging around here's how we're different, here's what we're inviting you to join is going to cut through the noise and really help people know yes, this is, this is for me.
• 20:28
  Speaker 4: Um, and another way that I sometimes come at this is to think what do we want to be known for?
• 20:33
  Speaker 4: And I think it can really be helpful to say not only what do we want our organization to be known for, but also our major initiatives, our programs.
• 20:43
  Speaker 4: So, for example, here at Wired Impact, we want to be known as the easiest way for a nonprofit to build a website, and that applies to the website software that we build and our approach and our processes.
• 20:55
  Speaker 4: I also say that all the time about our educational content that we're putting out there in the world, and there I really want us to be known more for making nonprofit websites less scary.
• 21:06
  Speaker 4: I want to create the most actionable content on the web when it comes to nonprofit websites and I think that helps to inform.
• 21:15
  Speaker 4: It ties to what we want to be known as an organization, but it is distinct and helps me really say, okay, if I'm creating this video, this toolkit, this blog post, it needs to be something that someone can read today and implement tomorrow.
• 21:31
  Speaker 4: And that helps push me to get clearer, to get more specific, to really make it tactical and actionable.
• 21:39
  Speaker 4: And I think organizations can do this about their programs, about resources they're putting out in the world, as well as their nonprofit as a whole.
• 21:49
  Speaker 4: So that really simple question of what do we want to be known for has really helped us shape a lot of what we're doing and what we're putting out there in the world and I think can really help nonprofits clarify their messaging and ultimately stand out online.
• 22:03
  Speaker 3: Can I just jump in here to say how I was about to say?
• 22:05
  Speaker 1: David, you know your shiz like seriously, it is so modern.
• 22:11
  Speaker 1: I didn't, I was, I was good.
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: But I go back to like what our you know, our mentor, seth Godin, has always said about marketing that a brand is not what you say about it, it's what other people say about it.
• 22:23
  Speaker 3: So if you're actually writing content that leads someone to be like man every time I come in contact with Wired Impact, it makes it so easy.
• 22:30
  Speaker 3: It's like that's how you shift.
• 22:32
  Speaker 3: It's not just you saying that, but you need to say it too.
• 22:34
  Speaker 3: But it's like people have that experience and I think what a great call, clarion call, of like how is all your content saying that?
• 22:45
  Speaker 3: How is the experience saying what do you want to be known for?
• 22:47
  Speaker 4: And just repeating that in different ways.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: It's so good man, thank you.
• 22:49
  Speaker 4: No, I, yeah, no, I.
• 22:50
  Speaker 4: Well, seth Godin I mean you'll see a lot of Seth Godin throughout a lot of what I feel like I talk about he just has very much influenced my thinking as well, um, and helped really push towards that clarity.
• 23:01
  Speaker 4: John, I love that definition of brand and a lot of the way I think about it is what do people say when you're not around, like when you are not there?
• 23:13
  Speaker 4: What are people saying about your organization, about your programs?
• 23:15
  Speaker 4: And I think the thing that I love about that definition is it really pushes for succinctness and clarity.
• 23:24
  Speaker 4: Because, if we're not clear, if we can't clearly articulate our own work, how is anyone else ever going to?
• 23:30
  Speaker 4: So jumping back into driving awareness and driving traffic.
• 23:35
  Speaker 4: The final piece here is getting really clear about traffic channels.
• 23:40
  Speaker 4: Really, where does our audience go to find solutions to those challenges or problems that we mentioned before?
• 23:49
  Speaker 4: It might be social media, it might be search engines, it might be thought leaders in the space.
• 23:55
  Speaker 4: Really, just aligning your solutions to providing value wherever your audience is looking for those answers is a major unlock when it comes to driving traffic and awareness for your cause.
• 24:08
  Speaker 4: There are a lot of ways to do this.
• 24:10
  Speaker 4: You can conduct audience research.
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: There are tools.
• 24:13
  Speaker 4: There's one called Spark Toro which I would recommend folks check out.
• 24:17
  Speaker 4: It's an audience research tool that allows you to basically say hey, where do people that visit my website hang out online?
• 24:24
  Speaker 4: What social channels do they use?
• 24:26
  Speaker 4: But, honestly, nothing is better than interviewing your supporters.
• 24:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, nothing will ever better than interviewing your supporters.
• 24:31
  Speaker 1: Yeah, nothing will ever be talking to you immediately with what you thought you knew they were going to say or how they were going to act.
• 24:39
  Speaker 4: Yes, you are.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: You're so right.
• 24:41
  Speaker 4: I mean, it is humbling.
• 24:43
  Speaker 4: It is also such an eye opener.
• 24:45
  Speaker 4: Every single time we do it, every single time someone that I've encouraged to do it does it, I just hear the same thing that it is such an eye-opener in terms of what we thought our audience needed from us and what they actually need, or what they are telling us that we can do to help them.
• 25:04
  Speaker 4: The other amazing thing about it is it can unlock this treasure trove of marketing messaging that you can use in your own marketing the content that you create.
• 25:20
  Speaker 4: So, for instance, you know what I always say is talk to your most avid supporters.
• 25:24
  Speaker 4: Ask them.
• 25:25
  Speaker 4: Ask them to describe your work, ask them to describe why they got involved in the first place, ask them what they love about your mission and your movement, and then use that language, you know, get that transcribed.
• 25:37
  Speaker 4: With AI, it's never been easier to get that transcribed.
• 25:40
  Speaker 4: You can do it for free.
• 25:41
  Speaker 4: Pull out those key moments.
• 25:43
  Speaker 4: Chances are that's going to resonate with other people like them and get them to really get excited about joining your cause.
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: Okay, that was such a brilliant pro tip because it does a lot of things.
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: When you, I mean, talk about like a twofer but it's actually like a tenfer, if that's even a word.
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: But asking your audience for honest feedback, yes, you're going to get the information that you need most to be able to move to the next step.
• 26:13
  Speaker 1: You're also deepening trust because you asked and because you cared.
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: And if you implement it, the trust is deepened even more.
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: You get stories, you get social proof of concept, you get cognitive diversity and different voices that are coming in, and it diversifies your language, your look, your brand Like.
• 26:36
  Speaker 1: I cannot overemphasize enough how important what you just said is, even as an exercise, if you don't have that as just an annual practice of let's go talk to our people, of let's go talk to our people as simple as that, the way that you can provide an authentic voice in a time such as this when we don't know what's real, especially on the internet.
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: This is where we can create real, authentic community, and I really do think the website is like the hub that spokes out to all of these things.
• 27:11
  Speaker 1: So I want to ask something super tactical, because you've been so brilliant in the strategy, but I want to know what are some common website conversion rate killers?
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: What are we doing wrong?
• 27:25
  Speaker 1: I want people to leave with a couple of these really tactical, quick changes that we could make today.
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: How can nonprofits easily fix those?
• 27:35
  Speaker 4: It's a great question and there are definitely common themes that we see coming up from nonprofits.
• 27:41
  Speaker 4: So one is what we already talked about targeting everyone, connecting with no one.
• 27:45
  Speaker 4: So again, totally get why it happens.
• 27:47
  Speaker 4: You want to cast the widest net possible, bring in as many supporters, but you end up diluting your messaging to the point where it doesn't resonate with anyone.
• 27:55
  Speaker 4: So in terms of how to fix that, I mean start by getting really clear on your primary audience.
• 28:00
  Speaker 4: Just develop that deep sense of what motivates them, what challenges they're facing, and then again outline the unique ways that you can help conduct those interviews and then just make all the decisions that you are making with regards to your website through the lens of what they need.
• 28:19
  Speaker 4: When we stop thinking about what we need as an organization and shift our mindset to what our visitors need from our website, it's just a major unlock and really changes everything we do, from the structure of our website to the content we create, to how we talk about our work, and makes it so much more likely that folks are going to get involved.
• 28:39
  Speaker 4: So you know we talked about before the lack of conversions being a major issue that folks are facing.
• 28:45
  Speaker 4: Getting clear on your messaging is such a big um, such a big step in in clearing up what we call conversion paths, those journeys that people take on our website from the moment they land to the moment they convert.
• 28:59
  Speaker 4: And, becky, to the point you brought up, it goes such a long way also in building trust when people start to see that, well, we actually can deliver on our mission, we actually can do the things that we said, that we are going to go out and change in the world.
• 29:17
  Speaker 4: That is a huge unlock and a huge way that we can build trust with our visitors to empower them to join our movement but also understand that we are sort of this enabler in helping them achieve the good that they want to see in the world.
• 29:35
  Speaker 4: One other is that your pitch isn't clear.
• 29:37
  Speaker 4: We mentioned this a little bit before.
• 29:40
  Speaker 4: But if you struggle to succinctly explain what you do and the difference that you make in the world to someone that's unfamiliar with your cause, there is no way your website visitors will understand it.
• 29:51
  Speaker 4: And in this day and age, if someone doesn't understand it, they're gone.
• 29:57
  Speaker 4: They're not going to spend time trying to pull back the layers of the onion.
• 30:01
  Speaker 4: I will say, quick aside, we need to stop blaming short attention spans for a lack of engagement on our website.
• 30:07
  Speaker 4: Attention spans are not the issue.
• 30:09
  Speaker 4: They are not the issue.
• 30:11
  Speaker 4: It's a messaging issue.
• 30:16
  Speaker 4: It's an issue with our website.
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: There are people out there.
• 30:17
  Speaker 4: Attention spans are what they are.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: They are not going anywhere.
• 30:18
  Speaker 4: They are here to stay.
• 30:19
  Speaker 4: We need to stop using that as an excuse, because there are plenty of organizations that are doing a phenomenal job of engaging the exact same people that were crying about not having attention spans, and so we need to put that aside and we need to really double down on the fact that we need to lean into clarity.
• 30:39
  Speaker 4: We need to lean into really connecting with our visitors on an emotional level and convincing them that we're a good place for them to invest their time, their energy, the big heart that they're bringing to this work.
• 30:56
  Speaker 4: It's an us issue, it's not a them issue, and we need to really double down on owning that when visitors are not engaging with our website.
• 31:07
  Speaker 3: I love that so much because, if you look across culture, it's like this is the culture, this is the generation that will binge watch an entire season of something in one night or one weekend.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: It's like it's not.
• 31:18
  Speaker 3: It's not about attention span, it's about are we captivating?
• 31:22
  Speaker 3: Are we serving a need?
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: Connecting these things are connecting yeah.
• 31:26
  Speaker 3: Right All the things.
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: I'm still in the differentiator part, because it's like we have so many nonprofits who you know help with cancer or you know support childhood cancer, and it's like, why is yours unique?
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: What makes yours different than the hundreds or thousands different you know around you?
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: And that's what we really need to hone in on.
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: And it's difficult and it's difficult to hone in on that and to get it as your self-professed long-winded, most loquacious writer speaker ever.
• 32:02
  Speaker 1: I see this deeply and I'm glad you called this out.
• 32:06
  Speaker 4: You're so right, becky, that it's really hard, and it's even harder for nonprofits than it is for most, because they have such a stratified audience.
• 32:15
  Speaker 4: Typically, they are trying to speak to a lot of people, and a lot of organizations have a lot of programs or services or ways that they engage the community, and so it is really challenging.
• 32:25
  Speaker 4: This is simply sum that up, so I don't want to come across as thinking this is easy, even if it sounds simple like it is definitely a challenging thing to do.
• 32:37
  Speaker 4: Um, circling back, though, that's why talking to your audience is so important, because they'll help you cut through the noise.
• 32:44
  Speaker 4: They'll tell you why they care right, they got involved.
• 32:48
  Speaker 4: You did something right for them to get involved with your movement.
• 32:51
  Speaker 4: So just ask like, ask what?
• 32:54
  Speaker 4: Why that?
• 32:55
  Speaker 4: Ask why they were moved to connect with your cause, and I think for a lot of organizations, you're going to hear some pretty beautiful things, um, that are going to really spark some ideas around the best ways to engage your visitors.
• 33:09
  Speaker 3: There's only good that can come from that.
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: I just love that advice because only good is going to come from you know, getting to know the people that are around your movement mission, et cetera more.
• 33:19
  Speaker 4: The reason it doesn't happen is it takes time.
• 33:20
  Speaker 4: Right, it takes time, but it's time well spent.
• 33:23
  Speaker 4: And what I always encourage folks to do and I've heard this come up in other conversations you've had with folks on the podcast is try and just weave it into more of an ongoing way that you run your marketing efforts or you run your development work.
• 33:40
  Speaker 4: You know you, you can just kind of weave in a conversation or two a week instead of instead of conducting this big audience listening project that feels really daunting.
• 33:50
  Speaker 4: Just weave it in, make it something bite-sized.
• 33:53
  Speaker 4: Pick up the phone, call someone, ask for a few minutes of their time, ask some thoughtful questions and then try and weave that into an ongoing thing that you're doing within your organization.
• 34:03
  Speaker 4: A couple of other just very quick hits we can move through.
• 34:06
  Speaker 4: One that is very common is overwhelming visitors with too many choices.
• 34:11
  Speaker 4: When visitors are faced with too many choices, people get overwhelmed and are less likely to do anything.
• 34:15
  Speaker 4: This happens all the time with calls to action on our websites and emails.
• 34:21
  Speaker 4: If you're asking folks to donate, to volunteer, to attend an event, to reach out to you, to join your email list, it's just there's too many choices.
• 34:30
  Speaker 4: You're not giving people a clear enough next step, and so I get it.
• 34:34
  Speaker 4: It comes from a very good place.
• 34:36
  Speaker 4: We want people to engage on the terms that are right for them, but it could really be killing the conversion rates on your website, and so the yeah, the way that I push folks to fix it is really, for each page of your website there should be one primary call to action and on each page, identify who's the audience for this page, what do they care about, what questions are they trying to answer and what's the next step in their journey.
• 35:05
  Speaker 4: And once we have those clearly outlined, our pages sort of write themselves.
• 35:07
  Speaker 4: It becomes a lot easier to create the content for your page when you have those sort of framing questions in mind, and then it also becomes a lot easier to write that clear call to action because you have that next step clearly articulated that connects to whatever the person reading that page is going to be interested in.
• 35:23
  Speaker 4: Some pages are going to be a little bit broader like your homepage is going to have a little bit more of an overview feel to it.
• 35:30
  Speaker 4: You can have some secondary calls to action.
• 35:32
  Speaker 4: That's totally fine, but there should still be a primary next step that you're driving visitors towards, and it should be tightly aligned to what they care about, not as much what you care about as your organization.
• 35:47
  Speaker 4: The more you can align with their needs, the more likely it is that they're going to take that next step.
• 35:52
  Speaker 3: David, I'm raising the glass to you.
• 35:54
  Speaker 3: You're talking about adding calls to action.
• 35:56
  Speaker 3: We feel like we almost lifted this as a trend this year.
• 36:00
  Speaker 3: We see so many people get us in the palm of their hand and then forget to say what's next, what's the next step that you can take, what's the right next way you can pour in.
• 36:07
  Speaker 3: So that's sage advice.
• 36:08
  Speaker 3: As we kind of thread this together, I mean you've given us so much, my friend.
• 36:12
  Speaker 3: I mean just our internal Google Docs is like exploding of, just like the wisdom that you've shared.
• 36:18
  Speaker 3: I want you to round this out.
• 36:20
  Speaker 3: You know, as we kind of start to wind down this episode, like what's some critical lessons that you would pass along to folks that are pouring into this?
• 36:27
  Speaker 3: You've worked with hundreds of organizations at this point.
• 36:29
  Speaker 3: What is a lesson learned that you've seen for folks that are pouring into growing their web strategy, looking at their web strategy this year?
• 36:37
  Speaker 4: There's a couple that jumped to mind.
• 36:39
  Speaker 4: The first one is really lean heavily into authenticity on your website in your marketing.
• 36:47
  Speaker 4: If it feels like the kind of content that someone else could have written, take it further, you know.
• 36:55
  Speaker 4: Lean harder into your unique voice, lean harder into your distinct perspective.
• 36:59
  Speaker 4: Just, you know it's it's harder than ever to stand out these days, but I also think, because of all the noise online, people are craving authenticity, like they just are looking for that genuine sense of connection.
• 37:13
  Speaker 4: And leaning really heavily into what helps you stand out from others is not only going to help you attract more attention, but also attract more of the right people who are going to, you know, raise their hand for getting involved.
• 37:28
  Speaker 4: They're going to really lean into your mission and, just you know, not only join a sort of a casual supporter, but be all in right in the movement that you're building to make the world a better place.
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: So that's one.
• 37:44
  Speaker 4: The other, which is maybe a funny thing to say as we're having a conversation about website best practices, is take best practices with a grain of salt.
• 37:52
  Speaker 4: I know it's kind of a funny thing to say, but it is so important to remember that your community and their needs are different than everyone else's out there, you know, and all of these best practices just need to be filtered through the lens of what your community cares about, what motivates them, why they come to you.
• 38:13
  Speaker 4: Best practices are a great place to start Like.
• 38:17
  Speaker 4: We talk about them all the time.
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: We share a ton of content related to best practices, but it's really important to adapt them, to test them, to find the simplest version of a test that you can run and then obviously double down on what works, but also take the time to circle back to those tests and say it's okay if it failed.
• 38:36
  Speaker 4: What did we learn?
• 38:37
  Speaker 4: What was our hypothesis that we set out to test?
• 38:39
  Speaker 4: Why didn't it work?
• 38:41
  Speaker 4: What do we want to do next time?
• 38:43
  Speaker 4: What do we not want to do next time?
• 38:45
  Speaker 4: Great, let's use that, let's adapt it into a new test and let's run that.
• 38:49
  Speaker 4: Websites are a great testing ground for things like messaging, for things like positioning, and so really encourage folks to lean into those small incremental tests and not be afraid of failure when it comes to running those types of tests.
• 39:06
  Speaker 4: So two quick things I wanted to mention that are often overlooked with websites.
• 39:10
  Speaker 4: The first, becky, is what you mentioned before about saving time.
• 39:13
  Speaker 4: I think that website technology doesn't need to be as complicated as sometimes people expect it to be.
• 39:21
  Speaker 4: You should be empowered be a tool to help you do your job better and if it's not, there are tools out there that will and so you should be empowered to make changes to your website whenever you want.
• 39:48
  Speaker 4: And then the other piece I wanted to mention is about accessibility, if I can just speak on that for a quick moment, on just why every organization should care about accessibility.
• 39:57
  Speaker 4: Okay, so, when it comes to accessibility on websites, we sometimes hear organizations say something to the effect of, like, our mission isn't in the disability rights space, and so accessibility isn't a primary focus, and I will say it comes up less than it used to.
• 40:16
  Speaker 4: But I just I would love to dispel that myth a little bit.
• 40:21
  Speaker 4: Um, so, first of all, a stat the world health organization estimated that one in six people worldwide have some sort of significant disability, so we're talking about 1.3 billion people.
• 40:33
  Speaker 4: Yeah, billion with a B.
• 40:35
  Speaker 4: Like you know, that's a whole lot of people that you're basically just excluding from using your website effectively.
• 40:41
  Speaker 4: But even if we put that aside, you've probably heard this idea before that accessibility isn't just about supporting people with permanent disabilities, that it's about supporting all visitors, which is absolutely true, but I think it's important to understand what that looks like in practice.
• 40:59
  Speaker 4: So like, take something like putting captions on your videos.
• 41:03
  Speaker 4: It absolutely helps support visitors who are deaf or hard of hearing, but it also supports people that person who's in the library and doesn't have headphones, or people that are in a loud space and can't hear your audio clearly.
• 41:17
  Speaker 1: So people laying in their bed and they don't want to wake up their husband, who goes to bed at nine o'clock which is me, by the way.
• 41:23
  Speaker 4: Exactly, exactly Right, and so not only does it open you up to more visitors, but it opens you up to more situations or circumstances, and it's more important than ever, becky, to that point of people browsing on their smartphones.
• 41:38
  Speaker 4: That's happening more and more, and oftentimes we're in situations where we're not playing audio.
• 41:43
  Speaker 4: So accessibility just sends a really clear message that everyone is welcome as part of your content.
• 41:51
  Speaker 4: It just shows that you're intentionally designing your movement to include folks who may have different needs, and I think that's something that most organizations would say that they stand for.
• 42:04
  Speaker 4: And so this is a really good opportunity to walk the walk when it comes to caring about making your movement as inclusive as possible, and you're just helping to ensure that.
• 42:17
  Speaker 4: Not only does it work today, but ability is also a fluid identity and it changes for people over time.
• 42:24
  Speaker 4: You know that's something I've experienced firsthand in my life and then, just because your major donor or your board member or your staff member is able-bodied today doesn't necessarily mean they will be tomorrow, and just building with accessibility in mind helps to future-proof your website and your marketing, to just make sure it'll stay inclusive for people already in your movement as well as welcoming new people into the fold.
• 42:49
  Speaker 3: I love that you talked about accessibility.
• 42:51
  Speaker 3: We just launched an episode as part of how it's built, Just a few back with Stephanie from the Perkins School for the Blind, where it's like how is this core to just how we show up?
• 43:00
  Speaker 3: It's so core to our mission.
• 43:01
  Speaker 3: What does that look like as we build an entire marketing strategy too?
• 43:05
  Speaker 3: So love that you lifted that and you're honestly have made me shift to a different, even bigger perspective of it.
• 43:10
  Speaker 1: I think what you've brought here is absolutely brilliant.
• 43:13
  Speaker 1: It feels tenable, like for all of us to try some of these things and honestly, I think, John, would you say that we Are For Good is totally exposed on our website right now and it's put all this.
• 43:25
  Speaker 3: Oh my gosh.
• 43:26
  Speaker 3: Yes, I'm like can I fix it before this goes live?
• 43:28
  Speaker 1: I know you're thinking about that.
• 43:30
  Speaker 1: But, david, we just adore you.
• 43:33
  Speaker 1: I'm sure the listening audience understands why we adore you after this conversation.
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: You have such a heart for this work.
• 43:40
  Speaker 1: You know how this podcast rolls, we know how many episodes you've listened to.
• 43:45
  Speaker 1: But we really want to get into story and we want to know you've had you've said it yourself a winding journey in your life and I'm wondering, in that winding journey, like, where was a real like trailhead for you of a moment of philanthropy that has stayed with you, a moment of generosity, of kindness?
• 44:04
  Speaker 1: We would love to hear it.
• 44:06
  Speaker 4: Yeah, I mean, you know we've been working with nonprofits a long time.
• 44:11
  Speaker 4: But one that just has stuck very close to my heart is the story of a 15-year-old boy named Michael Gustafson.
• 44:23
  Speaker 4: His family and his friends called him Mikey, and he was diagnosed with brain cancer when he was 10.
• 44:30
  Speaker 4: And Mikey, he loved school, he was an athlete, he was a competitive gymnast and he would actually get his cancer treatments on the weekend so that he could miss as little school as possible.
• 44:44
  Speaker 4: He just loved learning and being with his friends.
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: And after a year of battling cancer, including a major brain surgery, he actually beat it.
• 44:54
  Speaker 4: It did come back in a more aggressive form and unfortunately, like at the time, there wasn't a treatment, there wasn't really a plan, there wasn't a cure, it was just there wasn't enough known about this type of brain cancer.
• 45:12
  Speaker 4: But the moment of philanthropy, when Michael knew that he wasn't going to survive his battle with cancer, he developed what he called his master plan and his parents have this amazing video of him laying out his master plan and it was to do everything that he could so that no other child would ever have to go through what he's gone through.
• 45:35
  Speaker 4: He just wanted to help as many people as he could child would ever have to go through what he's gone through.
• 45:39
  Speaker 4: He just wanted to help as many people as he could and, you know, despite going through everything he was going through, he developed this beautiful idea that's grown into what's called the Swifty Foundation today and his parents, his siblings, his friends, they're carrying on this master plan and the work that they are doing is, I mean, just it's incredible.
• 45:59
  Speaker 4: They're organizing national tissue registries and tissue donations that are totally changing what's known about pediatric brain cancer, that they are advancing just amazing research and they're providing this just amazing community for families just going through the most heart-wrenching thing.
• 46:17
  Speaker 4: Just amazing community for families just going through the most heart-wrenching thing.
• 46:22
  Speaker 4: So I've been lucky enough to get to know the team over at Swifty over the years and for Michael's parents and his family to take just their own heartbreak and turn that into this amazing source of inspiration has just, I didn't even have kids when I got to know them and now that I have two young kiddos, the mission just hits very differently for me.
• 46:41
  Speaker 4: But seeing what they're doing is such a source of inspiration and Mikey's master plan just continues to inspire me on a regular basis.
• 46:52
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, I wanted to share the story of Mikey and his master plan.
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: Yeah, I wanted to share the story of Mikey and his master plan.
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: I mean it literally ties back to what on and get bigger and bigger, which we are 100% here.
• 47:27
  Speaker 1: For God.
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: We can learn so much from kids.
• 47:30
  Speaker 3: Of course, that stuck with you, my friend, like that's going to stick with all of us.
• 47:33
  Speaker 3: Thank you for taking us in there and just um, just surrounding that family.
• 47:37
  Speaker 3: You know that's still carrying on that mission and um, so growing the movement around Mikey's brilliant, so I just love that.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: You shared that so much.
• 47:44
  Speaker 3: As we round out man, what's a one good thing?
• 47:47
  Speaker 3: You know you listen to the podcast.
• 47:49
  Speaker 3: You know we we want to leave with something that stirred up with you.
• 47:52
  Speaker 3: It could be a piece of advice, or it could just be a mantra or something that has been meaningful to you.
• 47:56
  Speaker 3: What would you share with our audience today?
• 47:58
  Speaker 4: So over the last few years I've started just jotting down life lessons, and one that I keep coming back to is the big things become small and the small things become big.
• 48:09
  Speaker 4: So the thing I like about this is it really kind of changes in terms of what it means to me in the different seasons of my life.
• 48:18
  Speaker 4: And so right now, the first part, that big things become small.
• 48:21
  Speaker 4: So I've wrestled with anxiety in different forms over the years.
• 48:26
  Speaker 4: I'm the kind of person that like yeah right, I'm the kind of person that wakes up in the middle of the night and it's two o'clock and I just can't turn my brain off.
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: Something is racing through it, and so this reminds me that most of those things that I wake up in the middle of the night worrying about ultimately don't really matter If you stretch out the time horizon long enough.
• 48:45
  Speaker 4: Um, it's so easy, you know, to get caught up in the, the big presentations, the big events, the big conversations, the big galas, the big campaigns, whatever they are, but they almost always work out fine, or at least the world keeps on spinning right, like in the end, they just don't matter as much as it feels like they're going to in the lead up to them, and then the flip side of that, the small things become big.
• 49:09
  Speaker 4: Right now, I apply that to my kids a lot.
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: You know.
• 49:12
  Speaker 4: We have those two young kiddos at home and, like, all that matters to them is that I'm excited to see them after school, that I take the time to crawl around on the floor and play with them, and it's so easy for me to get consumed in wanting to provide them the best possible future and just thinking about you know just what's this going to look like in five years, 10 years?
• 49:33
  Speaker 4: But they don't care about any of that right now, like all, the small moments are all that they care about and it adds up to be the big thing, and it's so easy to lose sight of that.
• 49:43
  Speaker 4: And I also think we can apply this to the professional context.
• 49:48
  Speaker 4: These small, consistent ways that we show up for our teams, for our community.
• 49:53
  Speaker 4: They matter so much more than we sometimes give them credit for Just taking the time to check in with someone on the team after they go through something in their personal life, or carving out a few minutes to answer that email or that voicemail that someone from your community sent your way, even if it shouldn't have ended up on your desk, it did, and you know you responding in a thoughtful way.
• 50:16
  Speaker 4: Just, I think that stuff matters a lot more than we realize, um, and and it sends a very clear message to those people that you matter to me, Um, so I think it's so easy again to get caught up in those big events and quarterly goals and major campaigns and major campaigns, and I think the small, everyday stuff adds up to matter a lot more than we sometimes realize.
• 50:41
  Speaker 4: So, yeah, that's my, that's my one good thing that the big things become small and the small things become big.
• 50:45
  Speaker 1: You literally live this out.
• 50:47
  Speaker 1: I have to share this for like 20 seconds, Like you got on before we record and said John, thanks so much for your text.
• 50:53
  Speaker 1: You know, um, it was so kind, but I I couldn't reply back to you because I was playing cars with my son and I'm like that was the most important thing and you shouldn't have replied back because you should have been present with your son and I think I'm saying we are watching you live this out and rooting you on and it's doing beautiful modeling for the people who love you and are around you.
• 51:18
  Speaker 1: So, okay, David, people are going to want to know how to connect with you.
• 51:22
  Speaker 1: They're going to want to know how to get connected to Wired Impact, and there may be some people who have been nodding throughout this entire thing saying, okay, I need them to come rebuild my website.
• 51:32
  Speaker 1: So please tell us how to connect and do all the things, because we want more people to find you.
• 51:42
  Speaker 4: Yeah, anyone that wants to nerd out on nonprofit websites.
• 51:43
  Speaker 4: I mean, we post everything at wiredimpactcom.
• 51:44
  Speaker 4: We can actually I'll tell you what we can put up a page on our site that's, we'll do wiredimpactcom, slash good, and we can just round up all these resources that we've talked about and tools and things like that.
• 51:58
  Speaker 4: So if people want to go to wired impactcom slash good, we can make a page there.
• 52:02
  Speaker 4: Um, that'll have all these resources.
• 52:04
  Speaker 4: And then, uh, I hang out on LinkedIn.
• 52:07
  Speaker 4: These days that's really the only social network I spend any time on or I'm active on Um.
• 52:12
  Speaker 4: But I love talking about nonprofit websites and marketing and all things social good, and I also mix in some stuff about neurodivergence.
• 52:21
  Speaker 4: Just as a heads up.
• 52:22
  Speaker 4: We have a kiddo that is neurodivergent and really passionate.
• 52:26
  Speaker 1: There's the neuro spiciness Me too.
• 52:27
  Speaker 1: That's right, yeah, that's right.
• 52:29
  Speaker 4: Yeah, just carving out as much space as I can for him in this world is a real passion of mine, so you're going to have to plow through some posts about neurodivergence from time to time, but most of it's about nonprofit websites, so we'd love to connect there.
• 52:43
  Speaker 4: Just mention the podcast if you reach out, and I'll know that you aren't spam.
• 52:48
  Speaker 4: We'd love to connect.
• 52:52
  Speaker 4: The struggle is real.
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: My friend, thank you.
• 52:56
  Speaker 3: I mean Becky said this earlier you come for the websites but you stay for this community, this connection that you bring to every conversation.
• 53:01
  Speaker 3: So really grateful to have you part of this movement.
• 53:04
  Speaker 3: Thank you for what you brought today and just so much gratitude To be in that light, my friend.
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: Well, thank you.
• 53:09
  Speaker 4: I so appreciate carving out the time for us to have this conversation and, honestly, getting to spend time with both of you is a true treat, so thank.