Latest / Luke's English Podcast / S2E9 - BONUS_ - Audrey Herron_ Inside the Case _ A Cold Case Collective Roundtable

Transcript

S2E9 - BONUS_ - Audrey Herron_ Inside the Case _ A Cold Case Collective Roundtable · Luke's English Podcast

• 0:00
  Speaker 1: In Tragedy a true crime podcast, we discuss missing persons, cases,
• 0:05
  Speaker 1: violent crime, and other sensitive topics that may be difficult
• 0:09
  Speaker 1: for some listeners. Listener discretion is advised. Our show is
• 0:19
  Speaker 1: a place where every story matters and every voice deserves
• 0:23
  Speaker 1: to be heard. To support this podcast, you can subscribe
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: at www dot Tragedya Truecrime podcast dot com for early
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: access to new episodes, and join our Facebook community Tragedy
• 0:37
  Speaker 1: a True Crime Podcast for updates, discussions, and ways to
• 0:41
  Speaker 1: support the families we feature. Welcome to Tragedy a True
• 0:47
  Speaker 1: crime Podcast.
• 0:48
  Speaker 2: I'm Melissa and I'm Michael.
• 0:51
  Speaker 1: We'd like to welcome the Cold Case Collective at Spark
• 0:53
  Speaker 1: of Hudson, where thoughtful crowdsourcing helps generate new momentum in
• 0:58
  Speaker 1: unresolved cases. Today, we're gathering around the table for a
• 1:01
  Speaker 1: focused and respectful discussion on the disappearance of Audrey Herron.
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: This isn't speculation for the sake of noise. It's conversation
• 1:09
  Speaker 1: grounded in facts, perspective, and purpose. Around this table, we
• 1:14
  Speaker 1: examine what we know, question what we don't, and keep
• 1:18
  Speaker 1: Audrey at the center of the discussion. Together, we work
• 1:22
  Speaker 1: to keep these stories from being forgotten. Thank you, Jess
• 1:25
  Speaker 1: and the team for being here and welcome to the show.
• 1:28
  Speaker 3: Thank you for having us.
• 1:30
  Speaker 1: All right, we would like to get started by having
• 1:33
  Speaker 1: you tell us a little bit about what you do
• 1:35
  Speaker 1: in the Cold Case Collective, how you support your community,
• 1:39
  Speaker 1: and how you came to learn about Audrey's case.
• 1:43
  Speaker 3: Sure. So, we are a group of local community members
• 1:50
  Speaker 3: that gather every other Monday at the Spark of Hudson
• 1:54
  Speaker 3: in Hudson, New York. The Spark of Hudson is a
• 1:58
  Speaker 3: learning hub that has been opened for about the past
• 2:01
  Speaker 3: two years, and the ethos of the building and the
• 2:05
  Speaker 3: organization is being together and learning about a common thing,
• 2:11
  Speaker 3: so something that we're all interested in. And so we're
• 2:16
  Speaker 3: actually just a town over from where Audrey was last seen.
• 2:23
  Speaker 3: And so the club kind of originated a little over
• 2:28
  Speaker 3: a year ago. I have always been interested in true crime,
• 2:34
  Speaker 3: but also about victim advocacy and about keeping people's stories alive,
• 2:40
  Speaker 3: and started put out a little advertisement for a club
• 2:46
  Speaker 3: to gather like minded people to talk about cases, some
• 2:51
  Speaker 3: that maybe haven't been solved, or cases of underrepresented people
• 2:56
  Speaker 3: and communities. And so, to my amazing surprise, we had
• 3:02
  Speaker 3: so many community members come to the first meeting people
• 3:06
  Speaker 3: from all different occupations and backgrounds, all local, some and Hudson,
• 3:11
  Speaker 3: some from outside towns, and we've been meeting for over
• 3:15
  Speaker 3: a year. We've had a lot of really cool guests
• 3:19
  Speaker 3: from the community, local law enforcement. We've had a cadaver
• 3:25
  Speaker 3: dog come in to learn about that process. It was
• 3:29
  Speaker 3: really cool about using dogs in investigation. We have had
• 3:34
  Speaker 3: the Columbia County Sheriff, Jackie Salvatore come to speak with us.
• 3:39
  Speaker 3: And when we started, one of the first cases that
• 3:43
  Speaker 3: we all were really drawn to was the disappearance of
• 3:47
  Speaker 3: Audrey may Hearn, being that it's super close to where
• 3:52
  Speaker 3: we are and it's still kind of in the thread
• 3:57
  Speaker 3: of anyone here, even though she went missing, you know,
• 4:01
  Speaker 3: many years ago. At this point when you talk about it,
• 4:04
  Speaker 3: everyone has a memory of either where they were when
• 4:07
  Speaker 3: they learned about the case. I have people that I
• 4:10
  Speaker 3: know that had connections to her and her family, so
• 4:14
  Speaker 3: it still feels very fresh in this area and people
• 4:17
  Speaker 3: are still very much interested in looking for her and
• 4:23
  Speaker 3: interested in the case, and so the club itself, we've
• 4:27
  Speaker 3: been kind of investigating it and discussing it at our
• 4:29
  Speaker 3: club meetings, and then we found your podcast which covered
• 4:34
  Speaker 3: which was one of the first actual kind of newer
• 4:37
  Speaker 3: pieces of media on Audrey's case that we had found.
• 4:42
  Speaker 3: So that kind of gave us more of a jumping
• 4:44
  Speaker 3: off point and more insight from like primary sources of
• 4:48
  Speaker 3: people you've interviewed, which has been so helpful in helping
• 4:51
  Speaker 3: us learn more about the case. But yeah, Cold Case
• 4:54
  Speaker 3: Collective meets Mondays and it's really about bringing victims stories
• 4:59
  Speaker 3: to the four front.
• 5:00
  Speaker 1: I would love for you to tell us how you
• 5:03
  Speaker 1: found us.
• 5:05
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I actually found you, guys through one of our
• 5:09
  Speaker 3: other was the one who found this podcast. If you're
• 5:13
  Speaker 3: on this zoom, maybe evidently it's a mystery. Maybe this
• 5:18
  Speaker 3: is another mystery. Oh Colleen. So Colleen isn't here with
• 5:24
  Speaker 3: us on this zoom, but Colleen is a longtime member
• 5:28
  Speaker 3: who's been with us since the first meeting, and she
• 5:32
  Speaker 3: found this podcast kind of through just I think doing
• 5:37
  Speaker 3: some research about the case, and our assignment was we
• 5:41
  Speaker 3: had to listen to everything and we were immediately like
• 5:45
  Speaker 3: amazed by how much information we learned and then how
• 5:47
  Speaker 3: many more questions came up about the case, because it
• 5:51
  Speaker 3: feels like you're really being led in so many different
• 5:54
  Speaker 3: directions and there's so many different theories and unanswered questions
• 5:58
  Speaker 3: about the case. But you know, your episodes were super
• 6:01
  Speaker 3: helpful to hear from Audrey's friends and her daughter. They
• 6:05
  Speaker 3: were just amazing. So we're really happy we found you guys.
• 6:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, thank you.
• 6:10
  Speaker 1: I mean, we're still relatively new, not even coming up
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: on a year, and so I'm glad that people are
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: doing some searching and we're popping up as an option
• 6:19
  Speaker 1: because you know, the more people we have listening and
• 6:21
  Speaker 1: the more connects we can make, like we are making
• 6:23
  Speaker 1: with you, then the more our victims stories their names
• 6:27
  Speaker 1: are said, and we give their families hope one percent.
• 6:31
  Speaker 2: And so one of the things that you know, what's
• 6:33
  Speaker 2: always what's been amazing this journey we've been on is
• 6:36
  Speaker 2: this originally started out with just the case of my
• 6:38
  Speaker 2: uncle who was murdered, and we were only going to
• 6:40
  Speaker 2: do six episodes and provide that to the family. And
• 6:43
  Speaker 2: then as soon as we finished that, you know, those
• 6:45
  Speaker 2: six episodes, we started getting a phone call, and then
• 6:47
  Speaker 2: we got another and then another after that, and so
• 6:50
  Speaker 2: we kind of stumbled in to it became obvious to
• 6:54
  Speaker 2: us that there was a missing, you know, marginalized group
• 7:00
  Speaker 2: that was severely underrepresented as far as getting their names
• 7:03
  Speaker 2: out there. And one of the things I just said
• 7:05
  Speaker 2: to this on another episode the other day that hasn't
• 7:06
  Speaker 2: published yet, but one of the things that's occurred to
• 7:08
  Speaker 2: me through through this, and why it's so important, is
• 7:11
  Speaker 2: because whenever, you know, whenever you pass away or you
• 7:14
  Speaker 2: to spear, or you die, you actually die twice. And
• 7:16
  Speaker 2: what happens is you die when that happened, whatever happened
• 7:20
  Speaker 2: to you, and then you die the last person someone said, well,
• 7:22
  Speaker 2: last time someone said your name. And so the purpose
• 7:25
  Speaker 2: of this is to keep that from happening. And so
• 7:28
  Speaker 2: we're going to keep saying these people's names as long
• 7:30
  Speaker 2: as we can.
• 7:31
  Speaker 3: Totally. Yeah, we're in total agreement with that view of
• 7:35
  Speaker 3: thinking too. And yeah, it's been The podcast itself has
• 7:40
  Speaker 3: been just super super informative, and really I was shocked
• 7:44
  Speaker 3: when you guys told me you were such a new podcast,
• 7:46
  Speaker 3: because it's so it's so well done, and it was
• 7:51
  Speaker 3: so great to have something that was so local to
• 7:55
  Speaker 3: hear about, because you know, you listen to cases and
• 7:57
  Speaker 3: maybe you feel a bit moved, but when you were
• 8:01
  Speaker 3: describing locations and people and areas, you know, we painted
• 8:08
  Speaker 3: a really you painted a really good picture because we're
• 8:10
  Speaker 3: all we're all really in this area, and you did
• 8:12
  Speaker 3: a good job.
• 8:13
  Speaker 2: It's funny that you said that, because we stumbled on
• 8:15
  Speaker 2: that idea probably at our last roundtable, because remember Kate
• 8:20
  Speaker 2: said one of the things that she appreciated that we
• 8:22
  Speaker 2: did is we paint a picture of the location. So
• 8:25
  Speaker 2: it's very understandable. But what people are experiencing that even
• 8:29
  Speaker 2: just live there, and I spend a great deal of
• 8:31
  Speaker 2: time using mapping software and kind of understanding where things
• 8:35
  Speaker 2: are laid out, so when whenever we do start to
• 8:37
  Speaker 2: talk about it, we actually have something a good understanding
• 8:41
  Speaker 2: of the lay at the land, so to speak.
• 8:44
  Speaker 1: All right, Arella, are you ready to get into it.
• 8:47
  Speaker 2: Let's do it.
• 8:47
  Speaker 4: Yeah, let's do it. Okay.
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  Speaker 1: So Jess, we're going to turn it over to you
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  Speaker 1: and you can lead us from here.
• 8:54
  Speaker 3: Awesome, thank you. So we have a bunch of questions
• 8:58
  Speaker 3: that we've gathered from listening to Europe episodes and also
• 9:03
  Speaker 3: the case itself, and I'm going to invite the community,
• 9:08
  Speaker 3: the collective to start asking some of these questions.
• 9:12
  Speaker 5: So one of the first questions that we have is,
• 9:16
  Speaker 5: so this case is almost twenty four years old, and
• 9:20
  Speaker 5: I believe Audrey had a cell phone, but there was
• 9:23
  Speaker 5: no way of tracking it back then, no.
• 9:25
  Speaker 3: Way of having those towers paying. So what new technology
• 9:32
  Speaker 3: can help us, because this search is still ongoing, and
• 9:36
  Speaker 3: is there any way to use AI to search for
• 9:38
  Speaker 3: her face and older new photos.
• 9:41
  Speaker 2: That's a great question. I'll start out with some of
• 9:42
  Speaker 2: the technology then and versus now, and so I'm going
• 9:45
  Speaker 2: to date myself here. Unfortunately, because I used to have
• 9:47
  Speaker 2: a bagphone, and so a lot of people say, well,
• 9:50
  Speaker 2: it's a cell phone, it's still be tracked. But backphones
• 9:52
  Speaker 2: were actually managed by the individuals quite differently like today
• 9:55
  Speaker 2: we leave our cell phone on all the time. In fact,
• 9:57
  Speaker 2: I would say you probably when was the last time
• 9:59
  Speaker 2: you've actually turned your phone off? It just doesn't happen.
• 10:02
  Speaker 2: Back then, bagphones, they would the batteries would die pretty fast,
• 10:05
  Speaker 2: and so therefore a lot of people they only turned
• 10:08
  Speaker 2: the phone on if they were actively using it, and
• 10:11
  Speaker 2: so if you had it in the car, it wouldn't
• 10:13
  Speaker 2: actually matter because it's likely turned off and there was
• 10:16
  Speaker 2: just no there was no way to track things, so
• 10:18
  Speaker 2: it's unless they had it on. It was just it's
• 10:20
  Speaker 2: just not reasonable as far as AI one of the
• 10:23
  Speaker 2: things that we do quite a bit whenever we're deciding
• 10:25
  Speaker 2: which cases we're taking on is we use AI quite
• 10:28
  Speaker 2: a bit to kind of analyze, you know what. We
• 10:31
  Speaker 2: can find out who the family members are, where they worked.
• 10:34
  Speaker 2: It's it's actually shocking to realize what the you know,
• 10:38
  Speaker 2: what's some of them. As simple as chat GPT can
• 10:40
  Speaker 2: actually show you regarding any of these cases. And so
• 10:42
  Speaker 2: a lot of times we'll start there and then figure out, okay,
• 10:46
  Speaker 2: what's missing. And so regarding how AI is used to
• 10:50
  Speaker 2: for the more the analytical side, that's something we haven't
• 10:52
  Speaker 2: toyed around with too much. Instead, we've opted to, you know,
• 10:57
  Speaker 2: bring in some subject matter experts for instance, and so
• 11:00
  Speaker 2: like you know, if we have a nine to one
• 11:02
  Speaker 2: one call, or if we have a you know, written
• 11:04
  Speaker 2: something that was written by the victim or written by
• 11:07
  Speaker 2: what we believe is one of the people of interest,
• 11:10
  Speaker 2: we have a person that we contact and they go
• 11:12
  Speaker 2: through it and then they look for deception and so
• 11:13
  Speaker 2: therefore we kind of identify and analyze those pieces of
• 11:17
  Speaker 2: information that way. I don't know if he uses AI
• 11:19
  Speaker 2: and some capacity, and I probably should ask Jack that
• 11:21
  Speaker 2: it's actually a good question, but as far as us,
• 11:24
  Speaker 2: that's what we're doing, and there's tons of technology opportunities
• 11:28
  Speaker 2: out there. In my recommendation. What I've been telling people,
• 11:30
  Speaker 2: even funny enough at work is a lot of people
• 11:33
  Speaker 2: use chat GPT just on the surface, and you actually
• 11:36
  Speaker 2: have the ability to create your own chat bot system.
• 11:40
  Speaker 2: And so I do this for work and personal Like
• 11:42
  Speaker 2: for instance, I'm a data architect where I'm at, but
• 11:44
  Speaker 2: I'm the only data architect, and so what I've done
• 11:47
  Speaker 2: is created a chat bot that I've taught how to
• 11:50
  Speaker 2: be a data architect. And so therefore, whenever I do
• 11:52
  Speaker 2: searches with that particular bot the now suddenly I'm getting
• 11:56
  Speaker 2: much more relevant responses and much more ef frankly help
• 11:59
  Speaker 2: like talking your colleague. And so I think there's definitely
• 12:03
  Speaker 2: opportunity for that to reach out in the true crime world.
• 12:05
  Speaker 2: And now that I've said it out loud, maybe I
• 12:07
  Speaker 2: should create a chatbot for our true crime episodes, because
• 12:09
  Speaker 2: I haven't actually done that yet.
• 12:10
  Speaker 1: And this is what comes out of the roundtable. On
• 12:12
  Speaker 1: the first question, I do want to respond to the
• 12:15
  Speaker 1: question about maybe advances in technology, but from a different perspective.
• 12:20
  Speaker 1: So you all are aware that Bill McIntosh and his
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: organization and Adventures with Purpose have been up in that
• 12:26
  Speaker 1: area several times doing a lot of searches for Audrey
• 12:31
  Speaker 1: and or her vehicle. I was watching a YouTube video
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: that Adventures with Purpose just put up a couple of
• 12:37
  Speaker 1: days ago, and well, they were talking about one of
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: the reasons why they are successful when maybe law enforcement
• 12:43
  Speaker 1: isn't is because specifically about the advanced technology that Bill
• 12:48
  Speaker 1: and Adventures with Purpose have over what a law enforcement
• 12:52
  Speaker 1: necessarily may not have. And although I realized, you know,
• 12:56
  Speaker 1: it has been several years, the technology is far as
• 13:00
  Speaker 1: searching in water and topography and things like that has advanced.
• 13:05
  Speaker 1: And you all listen to our episode that we did
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: with Bill, and I do know that Bill is planning
• 13:11
  Speaker 1: coming back up there in the actual near future once
• 13:14
  Speaker 1: things thaw out. Has been speaking with several family members
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: and making a plan to go and search some of
• 13:21
  Speaker 1: the places that either Hey has searched before, but he
• 13:24
  Speaker 1: has newer technology or places that have not been accessible yet.
• 13:28
  Speaker 1: So there's advances in technology on his end as well
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: that may be supportive in some way.
• 13:34
  Speaker 3: That's really great to hear and it makes me think
• 13:37
  Speaker 3: too about how ways that we can kind of integrate
• 13:43
  Speaker 3: workshops around this topic into our collective. It makes me think, Yeah,
• 13:48
  Speaker 3: are there ways that we could get some kind of
• 13:50
  Speaker 3: local someone in law enforcement see are they utilizing it
• 13:54
  Speaker 3: at the local level or is it something that you know,
• 13:58
  Speaker 3: we'd have to find someone higher up. I'm curious if
• 14:01
  Speaker 3: that's something that we could you know, find someone that
• 14:04
  Speaker 3: could speak to us more about that at the club,
• 14:06
  Speaker 3: since we love having guests at the at the collective.
• 14:10
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, I definitely say we can connect them with
• 14:12
  Speaker 2: Bill and see if he can meet with them while
• 14:14
  Speaker 2: he's in New York because one of the conversations that
• 14:17
  Speaker 2: I thought was really compelling when we interviewed him is
• 14:19
  Speaker 2: he talked about how they've really dialed in all the
• 14:23
  Speaker 2: different technology and methods and processes that they use, and
• 14:26
  Speaker 2: that they've noticed they've been so effective at doing it
• 14:29
  Speaker 2: that they've noticed that different law enforcement agency agencies are
• 14:32
  Speaker 2: starting to mimic how their boats are set up to
• 14:35
  Speaker 2: match Adventures with Purpose.
• 14:37
  Speaker 3: Wow, that would be amazing. Yeah, we've been talking about
• 14:40
  Speaker 3: adventures with Purpose since the beginning of this case, before
• 14:45
  Speaker 3: we really had anybody else come on. Those were like
• 14:47
  Speaker 3: the first Those were truly like some of the only
• 14:48
  Speaker 3: YouTube videos besides news clips that were available, and they're
• 14:53
  Speaker 3: really really incredible, So yeah, that would be amazing.
• 14:56
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we'll make that connection.
• 14:59
  Speaker 3: Yeah, it's next question.
• 15:01
  Speaker 6: Yeah, that actually leads in pretty nicely for our next question.
• 15:07
  Speaker 6: We were reflecting on some of the information that came
• 15:12
  Speaker 6: in about a private investigator that was hired and some
• 15:19
  Speaker 6: you know, potential image or like metal detector shape of
• 15:22
  Speaker 6: a car on the golf course property. Our question is
• 15:26
  Speaker 6: sort of do we know if that ever led anywhere,
• 15:29
  Speaker 6: do we know who hired him, and sort of how
• 15:31
  Speaker 6: that process went with gut Yes.
• 15:35
  Speaker 4: I can respond to that question.
• 15:38
  Speaker 1: You will know that Marie has been our best point
• 15:42
  Speaker 1: of contact as we are working through supporting Audrey's family.
• 15:46
  Speaker 1: Marie actually gave me Gus's name several weeks ago and
• 15:51
  Speaker 1: encouraged me to reach out. And as it turns out,
• 15:55
  Speaker 1: he has had some sort of medical issue and he's
• 15:59
  Speaker 1: no longer able to participate. And so the last thing
• 16:02
  Speaker 1: I had asked Marie is if we could potentially get
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: any of the documentation that he was collecting while he
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: was doing his PI work. And I think we are
• 16:11
  Speaker 1: still working on that, but I do not have knowledge
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: of who hired him originally. He is someone that we
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: were hoping to speak to, but the circumstances just.
• 16:20
  Speaker 4: Won't allow for that kind of thing.
• 16:22
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and if we can get that documentation, then we
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: can dig further into this image of the car and
• 16:27
  Speaker 1: all those kinds of things that I know you guys
• 16:30
  Speaker 1: are asking about. We just don't have that information. That's
• 16:32
  Speaker 1: at this time cool. I think I'll go to my question.
• 16:38
  Speaker 3: So my question is, I'd love to know your opinions
• 16:42
  Speaker 3: on this Russian mob theory that's kind of been floating
• 16:47
  Speaker 3: around kind of in and out ever since we've been
• 16:51
  Speaker 3: researching the case. It wasn't something that we had originally
• 16:54
  Speaker 3: thought of, but we did bring in a local person
• 16:58
  Speaker 3: law enforcement who didn't work on the case at the time,
• 17:02
  Speaker 3: but did know of kind of like a similar or
• 17:06
  Speaker 3: looked at the patterns of the case, and it's interesting
• 17:10
  Speaker 3: they actually believed that it was a Russian mob attack,
• 17:15
  Speaker 3: and it was something that we were surprised being that, like,
• 17:19
  Speaker 3: it's not really when you're here in this area, it's
• 17:23
  Speaker 3: very calm and picturesque and there's not I guess you
• 17:25
  Speaker 3: don't really see this mob activity. Doesn't feel like a
• 17:29
  Speaker 3: place that that's where you had experience it. But apparently
• 17:31
  Speaker 3: there is, especially in Green County, which is the county
• 17:34
  Speaker 3: next to us where Audrey went missing. In Cat's Skill,
• 17:38
  Speaker 3: there is a presence of some Russian mom activity. So
• 17:44
  Speaker 3: I just love to know what you guys think about
• 17:46
  Speaker 3: that theory.
• 17:48
  Speaker 2: It's a good question. So one of the things we
• 17:49
  Speaker 2: try to be careful of is not to disparage anyone's
• 17:51
  Speaker 2: theories because at the end of the day, if we
• 17:54
  Speaker 2: knew where she was, it wouldn't be a theory, we
• 17:56
  Speaker 2: would just know, and so therefore it's hard to rule
• 17:58
  Speaker 2: a lot of things out. So one of the things
• 18:00
  Speaker 2: that I do though, is I'm very much I'm very
• 18:03
  Speaker 2: evidence driven, and so it comes from my data background.
• 18:06
  Speaker 2: So therefore with me, if there's no data to support it,
• 18:08
  Speaker 2: I can't spend too much time on it. The Russian
• 18:10
  Speaker 2: mob theory at this point, from what we've seen, all
• 18:13
  Speaker 2: the documents we've had, even the conversation we've had, there's
• 18:16
  Speaker 2: zero evidence that points in that direction. And so again
• 18:20
  Speaker 2: I'm not saying that's not possible. I understand the area.
• 18:23
  Speaker 2: I've even done some research on the Russian mob presence
• 18:26
  Speaker 2: in that area, So I do understand it, but there's
• 18:29
  Speaker 2: no key evidence, there's no speculation, there's no anything that
• 18:33
  Speaker 2: connects to that story at all. And one of the
• 18:35
  Speaker 2: things that tends to happen is as stories get older
• 18:39
  Speaker 2: and older and things get unsolved, a story itself can
• 18:42
  Speaker 2: become quite a bit, quite creative. And I get why.
• 18:46
  Speaker 2: It's because people want to know, they're trying to figure
• 18:48
  Speaker 2: it out. I'm like, Okay, well, everything we do know
• 18:49
  Speaker 2: is not possible. Let's start talking about These things are
• 18:51
  Speaker 2: a bit wilder and so it's not something we can
• 18:54
  Speaker 2: completely describe it. But it's also one of those things
• 18:57
  Speaker 2: that so far we've been presented zero evidence to even
• 19:00
  Speaker 2: connect to it.
• 19:01
  Speaker 1: I would love for you to share more if you can,
• 19:04
  Speaker 1: about what led your guest in that.
• 19:06
  Speaker 3: Direction totally, and I'll share and please any collective members
• 19:11
  Speaker 3: please jump in. Those who were there that day. So
• 19:14
  Speaker 3: we had a local law enforcement official come in, someone
• 19:16
  Speaker 3: who's been working in the area for I mean years well,
• 19:22
  Speaker 3: respecting the community. Something that she The reason she had
• 19:26
  Speaker 3: mentioned that she believed that it was a Russian mob theory,
• 19:30
  Speaker 3: in part was the fact that her car has never
• 19:34
  Speaker 3: been found. Apparently that from what she had explained that
• 19:38
  Speaker 3: that's something that is correlated with like some kind of
• 19:41
  Speaker 3: mob activity, and you know, I know very little about
• 19:46
  Speaker 3: what the mob does, but before that, I had no
• 19:50
  Speaker 3: idea that there really even was mob activity in this
• 19:52
  Speaker 3: area that was even trackable. So she kind of led
• 19:57
  Speaker 3: us to think that. So for a while, actually we didn't.
• 20:01
  Speaker 3: We kind of stopped investigating the case. I think we
• 20:03
  Speaker 3: felt like we had kind of hit a wall and
• 20:05
  Speaker 3: that like that was it, and we ended up coming
• 20:08
  Speaker 3: back to it when we met with some other experts
• 20:11
  Speaker 3: who did not believe it at all. And so I
• 20:14
  Speaker 3: think also too, there was this element of fear of like,
• 20:17
  Speaker 3: we're just a group of local investigators and we're community members,
• 20:22
  Speaker 3: and are we jumping into something that we it's a
• 20:25
  Speaker 3: little too close to home and like could be feel
• 20:29
  Speaker 3: dangerous to us. But I think we're at a place
• 20:32
  Speaker 3: now where, you know, talking more about it, I myself
• 20:36
  Speaker 3: am more in the lane that it that it isn't.
• 20:41
  Speaker 3: But nonetheless, it's been kind of eye opening to learn
• 20:44
  Speaker 3: more about this area and that there is this activity
• 20:47
  Speaker 3: that you know, I myself had no idea about.
• 20:51
  Speaker 2: Yeah, it's that's been the one thing that's been told
• 20:54
  Speaker 2: to us a few times and that was kind of
• 20:55
  Speaker 2: the justification of Oh, you know, the mob will to
• 20:58
  Speaker 2: typically disappear you in your car, and that proves it's
• 21:00
  Speaker 2: a mob hit or mob involved. And you know, I
• 21:03
  Speaker 2: can tell you just from doing this podcast that that
• 21:05
  Speaker 2: is false. We have so many cases in which a
• 21:10
  Speaker 2: person has disappeared with their car. Michael John Olsen disappeared
• 21:13
  Speaker 2: with his car. You know, Ian Rodgers disappeared. Now the
• 21:17
  Speaker 2: truck's been found, but he disappeared. Cody originally disappeared with
• 21:21
  Speaker 2: his vehicle. They found the vehicle later, and so and
• 21:24
  Speaker 2: even in the state of Florida, it's very common for
• 21:27
  Speaker 2: cars to be dumped into sinkholes here. It's a very
• 21:30
  Speaker 2: common thing here, dump into deep lakes, and it has
• 21:33
  Speaker 2: nothing to do with mob And so having having people
• 21:36
  Speaker 2: disappear all the time with their vehicle, isn't I don't
• 21:40
  Speaker 2: necessarily relate that to oh, that's proof of mob activity.
• 21:43
  Speaker 2: I would actually say quite the opposite.
• 21:45
  Speaker 7: Yeah.
• 21:45
  Speaker 3: I also find too that you know Audrey herself, and
• 21:49
  Speaker 3: the more we learn about her, just how like in
• 21:51
  Speaker 3: a much of an amazing person she was, and like
• 21:56
  Speaker 3: how like her family still speaks about her and all
• 22:00
  Speaker 3: of that, nothing really for me at least leads me
• 22:05
  Speaker 3: down that path of like it doesn't really make sense
• 22:08
  Speaker 3: as to why it would be her, of all things,
• 22:14
  Speaker 3: but you hear mob and you freak out because that's scary.
• 22:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah's And you know, one you know, one theory that
• 22:20
  Speaker 2: I thought about is the mob story may be built
• 22:22
  Speaker 2: to get people not ask questions.
• 22:24
  Speaker 3: Mm hmm. Yeah, it's good, it's good at.
• 22:27
  Speaker 1: It well, and that happens here when we're speaking about
• 22:32
  Speaker 1: Michael's uncle. He talked about the very beginning, who was murdered,
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: coming up on twelve years ago, and a lot of
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: the times it's not modulated, but there seems to be
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: this underlying thread of drugs. And very often people will say,
• 22:47
  Speaker 1: I don't want to come public because I'm afraid what
• 22:50
  Speaker 1: happened to Jody might happen to me. So it's this
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: narrative that comes up, and you know, there really isn't
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: any definite proof that there was any drugs involved in
• 22:59
  Speaker 1: his murder at this point, but that's what people believe.
• 23:02
  Speaker 1: You take ten people and nine of them won't speak
• 23:05
  Speaker 1: because they're afraid of something.
• 23:06
  Speaker 2: Yeah, we have far more off the record conversations on
• 23:09
  Speaker 2: that case than we do on the record. In fact,
• 23:11
  Speaker 2: if you go back and listen to that series, we
• 23:13
  Speaker 2: only interview really two people and we talked to twelve.
• 23:16
  Speaker 4: Yeah at least yeah.
• 23:18
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And fear can make you do yeah, it can
• 23:21
  Speaker 3: be very silent, and it's really good at that it is.
• 23:25
  Speaker 3: And to think too that, like, yeah, we had put
• 23:28
  Speaker 3: this down for a couple of months and are now
• 23:31
  Speaker 3: back at it. I'm happy that we're back investigating it.
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: I do have a follow up question. Is there someone
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: in the group here today that that leans more towards
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: the mob being involved? And if someone is in this group,
• 23:45
  Speaker 1: I'd love to hear their thoughts.
• 23:48
  Speaker 2: My opinion may just squatch that topic.
• 23:50
  Speaker 3: Anti mob now, I guess so, all right, cool.
• 23:57
  Speaker 2: I have converted another And to be fair, I don't
• 23:59
  Speaker 2: know if I'm right. Yeah, you know again, just like
• 24:02
  Speaker 2: I started the conversation, I go where the evidence leads me,
• 24:05
  Speaker 2: and I don't have any evidence that leads me that way.
• 24:07
  Speaker 4: Yeah.
• 24:09
  Speaker 3: Yeah, And it's so you know, I wonder too if
• 24:11
  Speaker 3: we can have our that law enforcement officer back and
• 24:15
  Speaker 3: kind of talk to her more about the things that
• 24:16
  Speaker 3: we've learned and maybe why that isn't the case and
• 24:20
  Speaker 3: why that could be something that maybe she could take
• 24:23
  Speaker 3: a closer look into. But yeah, it's definitely a theory
• 24:28
  Speaker 3: that makes you want to close the laptop and not
• 24:31
  Speaker 3: think about it. But yeah, cool.
• 24:37
  Speaker 7: So when Audrey left work, she would have driven right
• 24:40
  Speaker 7: past my house. So I know this area really well,
• 24:44
  Speaker 7: and I was wondering, do you know if the police
• 24:48
  Speaker 7: have searched any of the local abandoned car yards, because
• 24:52
  Speaker 7: there is a massive junk yard Post Brothers Auto Parts
• 24:57
  Speaker 7: right over by the bridge, very close to where she
• 25:01
  Speaker 7: went missing, and there's thousands of cars there and they've
• 25:04
  Speaker 7: been operating since the seventies, so they were definitely there
• 25:07
  Speaker 7: when she went missing.
• 25:09
  Speaker 2: Someone's watch making a murderer, and I agree.
• 25:11
  Speaker 4: With you, Yes, I'm making a murder.
• 25:13
  Speaker 1: It's very interesting that you bring this up, because this
• 25:16
  Speaker 1: is something that neither one of us had heard anything
• 25:18
  Speaker 1: about until we went on a podcast called Missing Persons,
• 25:23
  Speaker 1: and this is it's actually just posted this weekend if
• 25:27
  Speaker 1: you just search for Missing Persons. Mike Morford or ABJACT Entertainment.
• 25:32
  Speaker 1: He asked us about the junk yard when we went
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: on his show, and neither one of us had heard
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: about that. And so again I'm going to reflect back
• 25:40
  Speaker 1: to what Michael just said about really leaning on evidence.
• 25:43
  Speaker 1: We are waiting to get any information about in New York.
• 25:47
  Speaker 1: It's called a foil instead of a foyer, which I
• 25:51
  Speaker 1: did request. We're pushing like five or six weeks now
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: from the New York State Troopers, and hopefully if they
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: do respond to us, we'll get some piece is that
• 26:00
  Speaker 1: indicate the places that they did search, and then we
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: will have some proof. So I personally had not heard anything.
• 26:06
  Speaker 1: I think maybe Mike found it on Reddit. He did
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: a lot of digging on Reddit. I don't really ever
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: look at Reddit. So you know, obviously you guys have
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: heard about it too. So it's a theory that's been
• 26:16
  Speaker 1: going around. And if I do get some foya, I'm
• 26:19
  Speaker 1: going to do, you know, control f and see if
• 26:21
  Speaker 1: junk Yard pops up in there.
• 26:24
  Speaker 2: We've got a funny enough, we've got a decent track
• 26:26
  Speaker 2: record of getting those foye requests in. You know, we've
• 26:28
  Speaker 2: talked to other podcasters and it's amazing. We tell them
• 26:31
  Speaker 2: that we've had at least four of them responded to
• 26:34
  Speaker 2: now and provide an information. They're like, you have four.
• 26:37
  Speaker 2: We've been trying to do that for ten years and
• 26:38
  Speaker 2: gotten two and ten years. So evidently whatever Lease is doing,
• 26:42
  Speaker 2: it's working.
• 26:43
  Speaker 4: And I can ask Marie too.
• 26:45
  Speaker 1: Marie is in very close contact with Trooper Gabriel who's
• 26:48
  Speaker 1: the lead detective, and I can just ask her if
• 26:50
  Speaker 1: that is a question that he can that he can
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: respond to, or Sansia as well.
• 26:58
  Speaker 8: So, based on everything that you have learned so far
• 27:01
  Speaker 8: and all of the people that you have talked to,
• 27:03
  Speaker 8: do you feel as though Audrey might actually be found?
• 27:06
  Speaker 2: It's a good question. There's going to be the need,
• 27:08
  Speaker 2: there's going to need to be something break loose. I
• 27:12
  Speaker 2: think we at least from what I can tell, we've
• 27:15
  Speaker 2: gone through all the evidence that's available to us that
• 27:17
  Speaker 2: you know, we can get our hands on short of
• 27:19
  Speaker 2: whatever law enforcement happens. We've interviewed a lot of people.
• 27:23
  Speaker 2: I think I think it's possible to find anyone, and
• 27:27
  Speaker 2: you've had you have to just really understand, you know,
• 27:29
  Speaker 2: you have to be able to challenge your thought process
• 27:31
  Speaker 2: on what you believe happened versus what could have happened.
• 27:35
  Speaker 2: And so I think the more we do that, the
• 27:36
  Speaker 2: more we kind of color outside the lines, the more
• 27:38
  Speaker 2: likely we're going to find her. Because this point We've
• 27:40
  Speaker 2: looked everywhere that we know she's not there, and so
• 27:43
  Speaker 2: now the question becomes where else do you look? And
• 27:46
  Speaker 2: what evidence leads you to those locations? And so the
• 27:49
  Speaker 2: evidence starts getting thinner and thinner and thinner as far
• 27:52
  Speaker 2: as where we can go. But the challenge too is,
• 27:55
  Speaker 2: you know, since I'm familiar with Catskills area, there's a
• 27:57
  Speaker 2: lot of remote stuff there. It's to me it kind
• 28:01
  Speaker 2: of reminds me of the New York version of disappearing
• 28:05
  Speaker 2: in the everglades. Down here in Florida, people disappear in
• 28:07
  Speaker 2: their everblates all the time, and you have the same
• 28:11
  Speaker 2: issue in the desert in Las Vegas. People disappear in
• 28:13
  Speaker 2: the desert all the time. And so do I think
• 28:16
  Speaker 2: it's possible. Yes, But obviously the colder this case gets,
• 28:19
  Speaker 2: the more difficult that becomes.
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: I think from my perspective, it depends on what actually
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: happened to her. So if I go down the path
• 28:30
  Speaker 1: of she had an accident and went off the road
• 28:34
  Speaker 1: and the car was submerged or it's in a ravine
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: or something, then yes, I think her car and Audrey
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: will be found if that's what happened to her.
• 28:44
  Speaker 4: I mean, we do know.
• 28:45
  Speaker 1: This whole thing about cars and water was not even
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: something that I was aware of, and now that I
• 28:51
  Speaker 1: am more aware of this, sometimes cars and the people
• 28:54
  Speaker 1: who are in those vehicles when they are submerged are
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: found fifty plus years later. If we walk down the
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: path of foul play, which seems to be something that
• 29:04
  Speaker 1: came up like right away, suspicious death or suspicious disappearance,
• 29:09
  Speaker 1: I should say, I think that's what Michael's talking about
• 29:12
  Speaker 1: with something has to break loose. You know, someone knows
• 29:15
  Speaker 1: if that's what happened, if foul play was involved. Somebody knows,
• 29:19
  Speaker 1: and it's just going to take that person deciding to
• 29:23
  Speaker 1: tell what happened, or that person or people saying something
• 29:28
  Speaker 1: to someone that you know again breaks loose something and
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: leads the investigators in the direction to find her. But
• 29:36
  Speaker 1: for me, it depends what actually happened to her as
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: far as the viability of finding her and her vehicle.
• 29:43
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and the big thing that you know, we talked
• 29:44
  Speaker 2: about this one podcast quite a bit, and that is
• 29:46
  Speaker 2: people will say, well, you know, law enforcement probably already
• 29:49
  Speaker 2: knows this or this isn't important. And what we like
• 29:51
  Speaker 2: to remind people of when it comes to breaking items
• 29:54
  Speaker 2: loose like that is that is not our job. Our
• 29:57
  Speaker 2: job is to find these things and deliver than law
• 30:00
  Speaker 2: enforcement and then let law enforcement decide whether it's important
• 30:03
  Speaker 2: or not. And so therefore I'm just going to encourage
• 30:06
  Speaker 2: anyone who's listening. If you think you saw something, it's
• 30:08
  Speaker 2: something to seem suspicious, if some say something, and I.
• 30:12
  Speaker 1: Would love to I would love to ask you guys
• 30:14
  Speaker 1: the same question. What are your thoughts on what this
• 30:17
  Speaker 1: case may come to as a resolution.
• 30:20
  Speaker 8: I want to speak to the point that you made
• 30:21
  Speaker 8: about the longer the case is cold, the harder it
• 30:26
  Speaker 8: is to solve, and thinking about the fact that it
• 30:31
  Speaker 8: I wonder if it works the opposite, if it is
• 30:33
  Speaker 8: one of those trajectories where it was foul play, where
• 30:37
  Speaker 8: someone does know something, if the case becomes easier to
• 30:40
  Speaker 8: solve the more time goes on, because there's more likely
• 30:43
  Speaker 8: going to be people who no longer need to hold
• 30:46
  Speaker 8: it in, and for me, I think that's where we're headed.
• 30:49
  Speaker 2: And you could be right. I mean, one of the
• 30:51
  Speaker 2: things this again go back we talked about Bill earlier,
• 30:54
  Speaker 2: but this is something that I learned during that podcast
• 30:56
  Speaker 2: is he said when people go missing, they tend to
• 30:59
  Speaker 2: go missing in their circle of understanding, other circle in influence,
• 31:03
  Speaker 2: and when foul plays introduced, they are no longer in
• 31:07
  Speaker 2: their circle. They're in that other person circle, and so
• 31:10
  Speaker 2: it has to be what they're familiar with, what's you know,
• 31:12
  Speaker 2: what's familiar to them. And so in this situation since
• 31:16
  Speaker 2: we to me, one of the biggest compelling things about
• 31:19
  Speaker 2: the case was that night when she supposedly drove home,
• 31:23
  Speaker 2: that there was no damaged guardrails, there was no damage
• 31:26
  Speaker 2: foliage trees, there was no skid marks on the road.
• 31:30
  Speaker 2: For all intents and purposes, there was nothing that went
• 31:33
  Speaker 2: off the road, that nothing that anyone could find. And
• 31:34
  Speaker 2: so to me, that's really compelling, which is, you know,
• 31:37
  Speaker 2: either she didn't go that way or something else happened.
• 31:41
  Speaker 2: And so that's one of the reasons they've looked at
• 31:43
  Speaker 2: so many different possible directions she could have gone and
• 31:45
  Speaker 2: tried to investigate those. But even Bill says, there's tons
• 31:47
  Speaker 2: of water that's still completely unsearched, and stuff on private property,
• 31:51
  Speaker 2: things like that he hasn't given up on she's in
• 31:53
  Speaker 2: the water yet, and he still has plenty to look
• 31:56
  Speaker 2: at from that perspective regarding foul play. It's hard to say.
• 31:59
  Speaker 2: I mean, I don't know. I mean, if it's foul play,
• 32:03
  Speaker 2: you know, and I's say you buy the Russian mob theory. Yeah,
• 32:06
  Speaker 2: I don't think we'll ever find her.
• 32:08
  Speaker 3: You guys touched on a really good point too, about
• 32:11
  Speaker 3: the importance of things and information that to us or
• 32:18
  Speaker 3: us meeting you know, just an average person who may
• 32:22
  Speaker 3: have known her. I feel like you're exactly right in
• 32:28
  Speaker 3: the sense of when you we have we hold so
• 32:31
  Speaker 3: much information that we think might is just insignificant or
• 32:34
  Speaker 3: that won't does it matter. It could be, you know,
• 32:39
  Speaker 3: anything from what she had for breakfast this morning, or
• 32:42
  Speaker 3: you know, the like it all can in some way
• 32:46
  Speaker 3: be important. And I think you know, in cases that
• 32:51
  Speaker 3: other cases that I've looked at and the collectives looked at,
• 32:55
  Speaker 3: sometimes it's just been the most minor minute, just memory
• 33:02
  Speaker 3: or thing that breaks it loose. I remember I was
• 33:05
  Speaker 3: listening to the I watched the podcast of the or
• 33:08
  Speaker 3: listen to the didn't watch the podcast. I watched the
• 33:11
  Speaker 3: Netflix series of Elizabeth Smart that just came out, and
• 33:15
  Speaker 3: it was her sister who just saw it. Was flipping
• 33:19
  Speaker 3: through the Guinness Book of World Records and just remembered
• 33:21
  Speaker 3: something and was like, you know what, I know exactly
• 33:24
  Speaker 3: who took my sister, and that was just what triggered it.
• 33:29
  Speaker 3: I don't know if we'll ever find her, and I
• 33:32
  Speaker 3: want to so desperately, especially for her family and and
• 33:37
  Speaker 3: just to know because it leaves people with such an
• 33:39
  Speaker 3: unresolved openness of this case. But I hope that there
• 33:46
  Speaker 3: is something, whether it's from listening to this or something
• 33:50
  Speaker 3: that comes up where someone has a piece that they
• 33:53
  Speaker 3: didn't think was significant, but maybe it is and can
• 33:58
  Speaker 3: be that piece that gets things going again. Because you're right,
• 34:02
  Speaker 3: I feel like so many avenues with this have been
• 34:04
  Speaker 3: explored and it's gonna need to be something that's new
• 34:08
  Speaker 3: that we don't know about.
• 34:10
  Speaker 9: Correct, Agreed, I think it has potential to be solved.
• 34:15
  Speaker 9: I mean there's there's been a lot of interest in
• 34:17
  Speaker 9: the case still, but I'm also of the mindset of
• 34:21
  Speaker 9: like you need to follow the evidence, and the evidence
• 34:24
  Speaker 9: is going in so many different directions and it's like
• 34:27
  Speaker 9: little pieces that I think that there has to be
• 34:29
  Speaker 9: like that shining moment where one of these things comes through,
• 34:32
  Speaker 9: And I really hope so like for her own family
• 34:35
  Speaker 9: sit like losing someone and not knowing what happened to
• 34:38
  Speaker 9: them or where they are. If they're alive, I imagine
• 34:42
  Speaker 9: that would be really awful. So I just I hope
• 34:44
  Speaker 9: that something comes through.
• 34:46
  Speaker 3: But I yeah, I don't know. It's been such a
• 34:49
  Speaker 3: long time too.
• 34:50
  Speaker 2: It's kind of interesting. So even the evidence that we
• 34:53
  Speaker 2: do know, it can be told in different stories, and
• 34:56
  Speaker 2: one of them sounds nefarious and the one sounds totally normal.
• 34:59
  Speaker 2: Like let's talk about the tire for example. You know,
• 35:02
  Speaker 2: we all know that the tire was found outside of
• 35:04
  Speaker 2: the jeep, so she didn't have a spare tire, and
• 35:07
  Speaker 2: so you'll instantly go, as well, what if somebody killed
• 35:09
  Speaker 2: her loaded her body in the back of the jeep,
• 35:11
  Speaker 2: they had to take the tire out because that particular
• 35:13
  Speaker 2: model kept the tire inside the cab, and you know,
• 35:17
  Speaker 2: that's why the tire wasn't there, and that's a screw
• 35:19
  Speaker 2: up on whoever's part. But the same story is told
• 35:22
  Speaker 2: of she was hauling off a bunch of baby clothes
• 35:26
  Speaker 2: and that she had filled up all this all the
• 35:27
  Speaker 2: back of her jeep with these clothes. Who's to say
• 35:30
  Speaker 2: that she didn't take the tire out herself or have
• 35:32
  Speaker 2: Jeff take it out and to load up to load these.
• 35:35
  Speaker 2: I mean, that's a question we have for Jeff. But
• 35:36
  Speaker 2: you know, Jeff is not communicating with anybody. It's not
• 35:38
  Speaker 2: just us, it's anybody in the case. And that can
• 35:41
  Speaker 2: be looked at two different ways. It can be look like, Okay,
• 35:43
  Speaker 2: what was he hiding? But the other side of it
• 35:44
  Speaker 2: is he has children to protect and he's trying to
• 35:47
  Speaker 2: keep them out of the limelight. So again I can
• 35:49
  Speaker 2: argue his reaction both ways. What does it mean?
• 35:53
  Speaker 1: Well, And I'd like to bring another theory to the
• 35:55
  Speaker 1: group that we haven't discussed yet, which is about this
• 36:00
  Speaker 1: particular individual who is the son of someone who worked
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: with Audrey. And I know that you all know what
• 36:06
  Speaker 1: I'm talking about, and this person is makes some really
• 36:10
  Speaker 1: awful life choices, particularly towards women. And so this is
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: a name that's come up very frequently as potentially being
• 36:17
  Speaker 1: involved in her disappearance as well. And I would just
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: love to hear your the collective's thoughts on that.
• 36:23
  Speaker 4: Well.
• 36:23
  Speaker 5: I know that I think when the law enforcement women
• 36:29
  Speaker 5: came to our group, I think that she mentioned we
• 36:32
  Speaker 5: had asked about that, and I think she made a
• 36:35
  Speaker 5: note of saying that they had really looked into that
• 36:39
  Speaker 5: person and had gone to their house and had searched
• 36:44
  Speaker 5: sort of the property, and I think there even was
• 36:46
  Speaker 5: a body of water that they searched for the car
• 36:49
  Speaker 5: and they could not find anything. So I think that
• 36:53
  Speaker 5: they ruled it out pretty quickly, but they looked into
• 36:57
  Speaker 5: it pretty extensively.
• 36:59
  Speaker 7: From what I understand, I do think that someone of
• 37:05
  Speaker 7: that caliber, I don't know if they're smart enough to
• 37:08
  Speaker 7: have pulled this whole thing off, because people tend to
• 37:12
  Speaker 7: forget that. The reason that a lot of criminals get
• 37:15
  Speaker 7: hot is because they're not very smart, they're not very thorough,
• 37:19
  Speaker 7: they're not very intelligent. And I think that, you know,
• 37:23
  Speaker 7: when you're looking at someone who makes poor life choices
• 37:25
  Speaker 7: or has issues with drug addiction or that kind of thing,
• 37:28
  Speaker 7: for someone like that to be able to pull off
• 37:31
  Speaker 7: something like this and have her not be found and
• 37:33
  Speaker 7: have her car disappear, I think that, you know, that's
• 37:36
  Speaker 7: kind of overshooting that person's abilities a little bit.
• 37:40
  Speaker 4: That's a good point, especially the car.
• 37:43
  Speaker 2: The car becomes a problem. Yeah, you know, so that's
• 37:47
  Speaker 2: it's one thing to get rid of a body, it's
• 37:48
  Speaker 2: nothing to get rid of a whole car. But you know,
• 37:53
  Speaker 2: it's not like this is our only case where that's true. True,
• 37:56
  Speaker 2: someone's figured it out, just not me.
• 37:58
  Speaker 5: I also feel like me, somebody in that person's orbit,
• 38:02
  Speaker 5: would it have said something by now, somebody who knows
• 38:05
  Speaker 5: who if if anyone was aware if something had happened
• 38:09
  Speaker 5: between the coworker's son and Audrey. I feel like somebody
• 38:14
  Speaker 5: would have said something.
• 38:16
  Speaker 3: At this point.
• 38:17
  Speaker 2: Well, no, I agree with that.
• 38:18
  Speaker 4: That's that's kind of helped I thing very familiar, isn't it.
• 38:20
  Speaker 2: Yeah, that's That's been one of my theories on Whenever
• 38:22
  Speaker 2: you have someone that's painfully obvious that they could have
• 38:25
  Speaker 2: done it, the first question I ask is, okay, cool,
• 38:27
  Speaker 2: what piece of evidence is preventing it from their arrest?
• 38:31
  Speaker 2: And so what I typically find when we dig into
• 38:33
  Speaker 2: those types of things is we find there's this one
• 38:35
  Speaker 2: piece of evidence that completely exonerates them, gives them an
• 38:38
  Speaker 2: albi whatever. So even though you don't like that person,
• 38:41
  Speaker 2: the person's a douchebag or whatever, the problem is just
• 38:44
  Speaker 2: that being being abusive to women doesn't make you murder.
• 38:48
  Speaker 2: It just makes you an asshole. And so with that
• 38:52
  Speaker 2: you make a good point. So if they've looked in
• 38:54
  Speaker 2: this person, we haven't spent a lot of time on
• 38:56
  Speaker 2: this one. It's it's on It's on our radar for sure,
• 38:59
  Speaker 2: but I also was looking for yet another piece of
• 39:01
  Speaker 2: evidence that leads me that direction. And while I do
• 39:04
  Speaker 2: know that story, I don't have anything super solid that
• 39:07
  Speaker 2: puts me there. And I agree with you that they
• 39:09
  Speaker 2: get caught because they're not smart. In fact, one of
• 39:12
  Speaker 2: my favorite TV shows, it's mind Hunter, and they talk
• 39:16
  Speaker 2: to the guy that's played Ed Kemper. You know, he's
• 39:18
  Speaker 2: talking about these profiles that they're building for the FBI,
• 39:21
  Speaker 2: and he said basically says that your profile's flawed because
• 39:24
  Speaker 2: the profile is based on the people you've caught, not
• 39:26
  Speaker 2: the people you haven't caught. To me that as she
• 39:28
  Speaker 2: scared me when I was watching the show.
• 39:30
  Speaker 3: Cool, it's interesting.
• 39:32
  Speaker 7: Yeah, so I used to work with law enforcement, and
• 39:34
  Speaker 7: you know this is more modern, but a lot of
• 39:37
  Speaker 7: criminals they get caught because they go live on Facebook
• 39:41
  Speaker 7: or they brag about it in their Instagram story, and
• 39:44
  Speaker 7: they get caught by literally just people like me who
• 39:48
  Speaker 7: are working with the attorneys, who just happened to pull
• 39:50
  Speaker 7: up this person's Instagram and they decided to make a
• 39:53
  Speaker 7: comment or they decided to send the message on Facebook
• 39:57
  Speaker 7: and accidentally posted it probably, and so in a lot
• 40:01
  Speaker 7: of modern cases, that's how they get solved. It's not
• 40:04
  Speaker 7: necessarily really deep police work, agreed.
• 40:07
  Speaker 2: I mean, I think about how you know, you have
• 40:10
  Speaker 2: to wonder how much BTK was kicking his own ass
• 40:13
  Speaker 2: over sending a floppy disk to the Kansas Law Enforcement
• 40:19
  Speaker 2: for them just to sit there and look at the
• 40:20
  Speaker 2: serialized information and track it down to the exact computer
• 40:23
  Speaker 2: of where it was located, including IP. If he had
• 40:26
  Speaker 2: said nothing, we would not know who BTK is today.
• 40:30
  Speaker 2: He had gotten away with it and there was nothing
• 40:32
  Speaker 2: they had. They had nothing, but he couldn't help themselves,
• 40:34
  Speaker 2: couldn't help himself. Stupid.
• 40:36
  Speaker 7: But you never know, maybe they're listening, and if we
• 40:39
  Speaker 7: call them stupid enough, they'll get upset and mess something up.
• 40:43
  Speaker 2: That's a good point. Who would you like to call
• 40:45
  Speaker 2: stupid today? Is that where we're headed?
• 40:48
  Speaker 4: I don't know that we should do that.
• 40:52
  Speaker 1: I mean, this conversation is kind of making me think
• 40:56
  Speaker 1: about a particular story that we covered where you know,
• 41:01
  Speaker 1: we talk a lot about these cases and we will
• 41:04
  Speaker 1: sometimes just like you all, we speak for hours and
• 41:07
  Speaker 1: I just kind of keep coming back to you know,
• 41:09
  Speaker 1: if drugs are involved in this person's death. Somebody knows,
• 41:14
  Speaker 1: and they're going to cut a deal. You know, They're
• 41:16
  Speaker 1: going to say I know something about this so that
• 41:19
  Speaker 1: you can reduce my sentence. So I kind of think
• 41:23
  Speaker 1: in the same way that you do, and I sort
• 41:25
  Speaker 1: of like what someone said earlier about you know, maybe
• 41:27
  Speaker 1: there is this reverse kind of correlation that the longer
• 41:30
  Speaker 1: it goes, the harder it is for someone to not
• 41:33
  Speaker 1: say something, and they do kind of mess up and
• 41:36
  Speaker 1: say something true.
• 41:38
  Speaker 3: But in that case, isn't it odd?
• 41:41
  Speaker 5: I mean, it strikes me as being very odd that
• 41:43
  Speaker 5: her husband has will not speak to anybody. It's already
• 41:48
  Speaker 5: it's been such a long time. It's been over twenty years.
• 41:51
  Speaker 5: So I obviously understand wanting to protect children and protect
• 41:57
  Speaker 5: the family, But after a certain point, like where is
• 41:59
  Speaker 5: the line where it becomes now about really wanting to
• 42:05
  Speaker 5: find out what's happened?
• 42:08
  Speaker 2: I don't know. It's a really good question, and so
• 42:10
  Speaker 2: it's one that we struggle with. And funny enough, in
• 42:11
  Speaker 2: two hours we have another interview and it's with someone
• 42:16
  Speaker 2: specifically to talk about grief responses. And so because it's
• 42:20
  Speaker 2: been a question that's come up even in my case,
• 42:22
  Speaker 2: the Jodie Tilgore case, my aunt has refused talking to
• 42:28
  Speaker 2: law enforcement, and then as soon as we started publishing
• 42:31
  Speaker 2: the cases, she won't talk to me. And so I
• 42:35
  Speaker 2: lost a family member through this process. So I got
• 42:38
  Speaker 2: loose too. I got lose Jody, and I got lose
• 42:40
  Speaker 2: Susan my aunt.
• 42:41
  Speaker 1: Yeah, we're really seeking someone like a psychologist or a
• 42:45
  Speaker 1: psychiatrist or something who can speak with us about this
• 42:49
  Speaker 1: phenomenon that we are coming across, where every single story
• 42:53
  Speaker 1: that we have told, every single victims story that we
• 42:56
  Speaker 1: have told, there's someone very integral to putting the pieces
• 43:01
  Speaker 1: of the puzzle in place who will not speak with us.
• 43:04
  Speaker 1: In his uncle's case, it's his uncle's wife, and you know,
• 43:09
  Speaker 1: you all know in this case it's going to be
• 43:11
  Speaker 1: Audrey's husband. And in another case, it's the last verifiable
• 43:14
  Speaker 1: person to see Michael John Olson alive. And in another case,
• 43:18
  Speaker 1: it's these two gentlemen who supposedly spent the weekend with
• 43:22
  Speaker 1: Cody Haney before he went missing. Like, every single time
• 43:26
  Speaker 1: we can tell you someone we think would really want
• 43:29
  Speaker 1: to come forward and can move this case does not
• 43:32
  Speaker 1: speak to us. And it's a wild phenomenon. We don't
• 43:36
  Speaker 1: understand it, and we would like to have some expert
• 43:38
  Speaker 1: kind of help us talk through that.
• 43:40
  Speaker 2: Well, keep in mind too, it's not I want to
• 43:42
  Speaker 2: make sure we're clear on this. It's not us. They're
• 43:44
  Speaker 2: not speaking to any anyone.
• 43:45
  Speaker 3: Yeah, I think it's great that you're bringing on a
• 43:49
  Speaker 3: psychologist to talk about this. You know, you see it
• 43:53
  Speaker 3: in a lot of cases too. Everybody is so so
• 43:58
  Speaker 3: different in how they respond to a trauma or you know,
• 44:04
  Speaker 3: and it's hard. But it's also hard as a person
• 44:08
  Speaker 3: to not make judgment. I think it's like an inherent
• 44:11
  Speaker 3: thing that we go, oh, we would never do that,
• 44:13
  Speaker 3: or we would never act this way, And the truth
• 44:16
  Speaker 3: is we don't know what we would do when faced
• 44:19
  Speaker 3: this kind of situation. So there have been times where yeah,
• 44:23
  Speaker 3: I've been like, oh my gosh, Jeff, just you know, speak,
• 44:27
  Speaker 3: But then I also think there's another part of me
• 44:30
  Speaker 3: that wonders like, if he wasn't a part of her disappearance,
• 44:35
  Speaker 3: what he, you know, must be caring and going through
• 44:39
  Speaker 3: and why that's made him so shut off to the
• 44:42
  Speaker 3: world and people wanting to know. And I'm really curious
• 44:45
  Speaker 3: to see what the psychologist says about it.
• 44:49
  Speaker 4: We're working on finding someone.
• 44:51
  Speaker 6: Yeah, actually that reminds me of you know, you're talking
• 44:57
  Speaker 6: about the like the last people who saw someone else
• 45:01
  Speaker 6: before they went missing. The last people that Audrey saw
• 45:05
  Speaker 6: before she went missing were her coworkers, and there was
• 45:10
  Speaker 6: at least one coworker who made a statement and then
• 45:13
  Speaker 6: retracted it. And that's sort of a weird psychological thing
• 45:17
  Speaker 6: as well. Do we have any I don't know if
• 45:20
  Speaker 6: we have any more verified information from the coworkers that
• 45:25
  Speaker 6: she spoke to last But I'd also just be really
• 45:29
  Speaker 6: curious about the psychological process of that person being like, oh, yes,
• 45:36
  Speaker 6: I was following her until this road. Now, Actually I wasn't.
• 45:39
  Speaker 6: I just wanted to be a part of things.
• 45:43
  Speaker 1: Yes, I have a couple of things I can say
• 45:45
  Speaker 1: about that. I did speak over the phone very briefly
• 45:48
  Speaker 1: with someone who did work with Audrey that night, just
• 45:51
  Speaker 1: to get more of a state of mind, and had
• 45:53
  Speaker 1: worked with Audrey I think for about a year, yes, right,
• 45:55
  Speaker 1: And she indicated that things seem normal that night. She
• 45:58
  Speaker 1: is not the person who walked out with Audrey, but
• 46:01
  Speaker 1: she said she didn't see anything unusual going on with
• 46:04
  Speaker 1: Audrey that night or even leading up to that, So
• 46:08
  Speaker 1: I did have a brief conversation with her, just so
• 46:10
  Speaker 1: that we could get someone on the record who was
• 46:13
  Speaker 1: there that night's that Audrey went missing.
• 46:15
  Speaker 4: And then I mean, as.
• 46:17
  Speaker 1: Far as your other question, we were talking earlier about tips, right,
• 46:22
  Speaker 1: and we want people to say things, even if we
• 46:25
  Speaker 1: don't know what it is, but please share what you know.
• 46:28
  Speaker 1: I cannot tell you how blown up my Facebook messenger
• 46:31
  Speaker 1: is since we've started this process. People message me all
• 46:37
  Speaker 1: the time little things that they heard in a ride
• 46:40
  Speaker 1: share or something they heard at the bar, and of
• 46:44
  Speaker 1: course I always encourage them to go directly to whoever
• 46:48
  Speaker 1: is the law enforcement agency who's leading that case. And
• 46:52
  Speaker 1: you know, the unfortunate reality is, as much as we
• 46:55
  Speaker 1: keep saying we do want these tips to go, sometimes
• 46:59
  Speaker 1: law enforcement and actually doesn't want those tips. And I'm
• 47:01
  Speaker 1: not saying that in Audrey's case, but in one of
• 47:04
  Speaker 1: our stories that we have covered, we know actively that
• 47:08
  Speaker 1: one of the law enforcement people said, well, I wish
• 47:10
  Speaker 1: the podcasters would stop doing what they're doing because we're
• 47:12
  Speaker 1: just getting all these tips and they're all useless. Of course,
• 47:16
  Speaker 1: we said, hey, everybody keep sending in your tips, you know,
• 47:19
  Speaker 1: it's just like so super frustrating, But there is this
• 47:23
  Speaker 1: thing about people who just want to be a part
• 47:25
  Speaker 1: of something that I think is bigger than them. And
• 47:28
  Speaker 1: that's really again up to law enforcement to decide is
• 47:31
  Speaker 1: this credible or is this you know? Or we're going
• 47:33
  Speaker 1: to take this all the way to the end and
• 47:35
  Speaker 1: here's what we found.
• 47:36
  Speaker 3: Do we want to do our final question?
• 47:40
  Speaker 6: I guess that kind of does answer the final question
• 47:42
  Speaker 6: if you've only spoken to that one coworker, we were
• 47:45
  Speaker 6: really curious about sort of those last moments in the
• 47:48
  Speaker 6: parking lot and where she parked and how well lit
• 47:51
  Speaker 6: it was, and the coworker that she's basically spoke to
• 47:56
  Speaker 6: just before she got in her car, and what they saw,
• 47:59
  Speaker 6: what they spoke about. You don't have any more information
• 48:03
  Speaker 6: on that.
• 48:04
  Speaker 1: I do remember Mike speaking about how he had seen
• 48:07
  Speaker 1: some things on Reddit about some very grainy footage that
• 48:10
  Speaker 1: was taken from a camera in the parking lot, but
• 48:13
  Speaker 1: the footage was not didn't have enough resolution to be
• 48:16
  Speaker 1: able to determine if that was actually Audrey. Now, again,
• 48:20
  Speaker 1: this is something that I can look for in whatever
• 48:23
  Speaker 1: records that we do get from the New York State Troopers.
• 48:27
  Speaker 1: It is really amazing the things that can be taken
• 48:30
  Speaker 1: out of that. We did get one request from FOYA.
• 48:34
  Speaker 4: Again, We're going to.
• 48:35
  Speaker 1: Go back to Michael's uncle's murder. When we finally got
• 48:39
  Speaker 1: something after several several, several months, but what ninety percent
• 48:42
  Speaker 1: of it was redacted?
• 48:44
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I looked like black construction paper.
• 48:45
  Speaker 1: But there were things there that even though all that
• 48:48
  Speaker 1: was redacted, we were able to determine that there was
• 48:51
  Speaker 1: an eyewitness to a potential argument that happened in the
• 48:55
  Speaker 1: moments before his uncle was killed. We did have a
• 49:00
  Speaker 1: statement that came from the first responding officer that we
• 49:04
  Speaker 1: gave to our statement analyst, and he looked at it.
• 49:07
  Speaker 1: So like, even if a lot of it is redacted,
• 49:10
  Speaker 1: there are still things that we can go in and
• 49:11
  Speaker 1: look for and pull out. So I'm really hopeful that
• 49:15
  Speaker 1: we're able to get that response from them relatively soon.
• 49:17
  Speaker 2: Yeah, speaking of that case, one thing that's really there's
• 49:19
  Speaker 2: a piece of evidence there that we think they messed
• 49:21
  Speaker 2: up and they didn't redact properly. We found something that
• 49:24
  Speaker 2: we figured out it was an address. Then we figured
• 49:26
  Speaker 2: out that they did remove evidence or blog evidence from
• 49:30
  Speaker 2: that address, and so we tracked down the address. I'm
• 49:32
  Speaker 2: not going to say it here, but we kind of
• 49:35
  Speaker 2: understand who that address is connected to, and it's a
• 49:38
  Speaker 2: pretty well known family in this area. So you start
• 49:41
  Speaker 2: having the conversation of wood law enforcement cover that up.
• 49:47
  Speaker 2: I wouldn't think so, but it's a theory.
• 49:51
  Speaker 1: I'm wondering if there are other questions that have popped
• 49:53
  Speaker 1: up that you guys hadn't thought of a prior.
• 49:56
  Speaker 5: I mean, I just really want to know what you
• 49:58
  Speaker 5: guys think, Like, what is your leading theory? What evidence
• 50:03
  Speaker 5: do you think pulls just like pulls you into a
• 50:07
  Speaker 5: certain direction the most.
• 50:09
  Speaker 2: That's a good question. I've struggled with this one. Do
• 50:12
  Speaker 2: I believe that Audrey wandered off? The answer is no,
• 50:16
  Speaker 2: I don't think there's any evidence that gets me to
• 50:18
  Speaker 2: believe that, especially considering Sancia was coming back into town.
• 50:21
  Speaker 2: Sheend seed her daughter in a while, she's not if
• 50:23
  Speaker 2: she's going to take off, it's not today. So Regardles,
• 50:27
  Speaker 2: the mssian Throp the Russian mop there, I've already said
• 50:30
  Speaker 2: I don't really believe that one because there's just not
• 50:31
  Speaker 2: any evidence for it. I still think it's possible that
• 50:34
  Speaker 2: she's in a ravine or in a lake somewhere, there's
• 50:37
  Speaker 2: enough evidence to show that that possibility is there. And
• 50:42
  Speaker 2: because you know, you think about the night, I think
• 50:43
  Speaker 2: it's eleven o'clock, she's worked a full shift, while that
• 50:47
  Speaker 2: area is familiar, it was dark, and it was rainy
• 50:50
  Speaker 2: or misty that night, and the road conditions, you know,
• 50:53
  Speaker 2: weren't awful, but they were marginal. And so therefore, if
• 50:57
  Speaker 2: you take that into account, and she wasn't paying attention,
• 51:00
  Speaker 2: or maybe something ran out on the road, it could
• 51:03
  Speaker 2: very well ended her in a lake that no one's
• 51:05
  Speaker 2: checked yet. That's why Bill has all these private property
• 51:08
  Speaker 2: locations that he really wants to check out. Now regarding
• 51:11
  Speaker 2: foul play, yeah, I mean, you know, bottom line, you've
• 51:14
  Speaker 2: had a really pretty blonde woman who's disappeared. You know,
• 51:17
  Speaker 2: she's quite small, so she wouldn't be difficult to overtake.
• 51:20
  Speaker 2: And as a result of that, you know, poof gone.
• 51:24
  Speaker 2: And that's the challenge of these missing person cases. And
• 51:26
  Speaker 2: it also I believe that's a possibility because again you
• 51:30
  Speaker 2: go back to we've already looked in her circle, we're
• 51:32
  Speaker 2: not finding her, so whose circle is she in? Now?
• 51:36
  Speaker 2: There's still information some I can talk about and some
• 51:38
  Speaker 2: I can't. Regarding some of the crazier things like the
• 51:42
  Speaker 2: purse that was supposedly seen that had her information, her
• 51:46
  Speaker 2: cigarettes or stuff in the purse that was seen when
• 51:49
  Speaker 2: they were looking for her. So how does she get
• 51:51
  Speaker 2: separated from a purse? And so there's theories that she
• 51:53
  Speaker 2: made it all the way home and that you know,
• 51:56
  Speaker 2: something happened once she got home, you know, And so
• 51:59
  Speaker 2: that is put Jeff in a great light, but it
• 52:01
  Speaker 2: also doesn't prove anything. You know, she may have left
• 52:04
  Speaker 2: her person home and I've left my I've left my
• 52:06
  Speaker 2: wallet at home before that's happened.
• 52:08
  Speaker 1: And that was someone saying I think I.
• 52:10
  Speaker 4: Saw the parent.
• 52:11
  Speaker 2: I think I saw they didn't they get they confirm it.
• 52:14
  Speaker 2: That's one of the questions we have for law enforcement
• 52:16
  Speaker 2: is was that piece of evidence considered. We're hoping to
• 52:20
  Speaker 2: find that in the foil. So, yeah, I'm stuck between
• 52:24
  Speaker 2: off the road in a lake and foul play. We've
• 52:26
  Speaker 2: even looked at the concepts of what serial killer activity
• 52:30
  Speaker 2: was happening in the area at the time. Could it
• 52:32
  Speaker 2: be related to that? There's no information directly leading it,
• 52:35
  Speaker 2: But that's kind of the nature of a serial killer,
• 52:37
  Speaker 2: isn't it. And so it's it's definitely possible. There's no
• 52:41
  Speaker 2: evidence that points me in that direction, so it's just
• 52:43
  Speaker 2: a theory something.
• 52:45
  Speaker 3: I guess this is more of a comment than anything.
• 52:50
  Speaker 3: But when we were talking about you know, AI and
• 52:54
  Speaker 3: for you know technology, it reminded me that there's really
• 52:58
  Speaker 3: we don't have there's no scene, so we don't have
• 53:02
  Speaker 3: there's DNA right now is not applicable in this. It
• 53:05
  Speaker 3: had like I was thinking about other ways in which
• 53:10
  Speaker 3: you know, people have been caught, and I guess that's
• 53:13
  Speaker 3: just the true difficulty of a missing person's case is
• 53:17
  Speaker 3: it's like you're kind of working off of everything and
• 53:21
  Speaker 3: nothing at the same time. And that was just something
• 53:24
  Speaker 3: I thought I'd never really, you know, considered that with
• 53:28
  Speaker 3: a missing person's case. There's no there's no scene of
• 53:32
  Speaker 3: the crime. It doesn't that you know of, it doesn't
• 53:34
  Speaker 3: yet exist, and so yeah, you're really just in the
• 53:37
  Speaker 3: ether here of figuring out what sticks and what doesn't.
• 53:41
  Speaker 2: Oh yeah. And so one of the things that we've
• 53:43
  Speaker 2: learned through this process ourselves is we didn't start this
• 53:45
  Speaker 2: out as investigators. We've gotten much much better at it
• 53:47
  Speaker 2: over time. And one of the things that we've learned
• 53:51
  Speaker 2: is the whole concept of when, where, where, and when
• 53:54
  Speaker 2: should you start looking? So when you think about what
• 53:57
  Speaker 2: happened to Audrey, that was she went missing, Well that's
• 53:59
  Speaker 2: the finality. And so what you actually have to do
• 54:03
  Speaker 2: is start looking at things that happen days, weeks, months
• 54:06
  Speaker 2: before that event and look for some kind of relationship.
• 54:09
  Speaker 2: And that's kind of what we're doing now. That's one
• 54:12
  Speaker 2: of reason we ask, you know, questions like, you know,
• 54:14
  Speaker 2: anything strange leading up to X. You know, we've got
• 54:17
  Speaker 2: information to where she was being very rebellious. We talk
• 54:20
  Speaker 2: about this in the episode, and she was smoking cigarettes
• 54:22
  Speaker 2: and you know, being sassy with Jeff and that. You know,
• 54:26
  Speaker 2: they have a theory that that maybe that made me mad,
• 54:28
  Speaker 2: but you know, again mad enough to kill her. I
• 54:31
  Speaker 2: don't know. You know, I've gotten mad with my wife
• 54:33
  Speaker 2: before she gets mad with me. We haven't taken each
• 54:35
  Speaker 2: other out. With that being said, you know, it's one
• 54:38
  Speaker 2: of those things that, yeah, I think a deeper dive
• 54:41
  Speaker 2: in those types of things, because you're right, you're dealing
• 54:43
  Speaker 2: with no crimes. It's well, it's I'll say it this way.
• 54:46
  Speaker 2: There's there's a reason a lot of attorneys don't like
• 54:50
  Speaker 2: to take a court case and without a body, and
• 54:54
  Speaker 2: it's because it's so difficult to prove anything because everything
• 54:58
  Speaker 2: becomes circumstantial versus if you have the evidence, well that's
• 55:02
  Speaker 2: a different conversation. You know, you have DNA evidence, you
• 55:06
  Speaker 2: have fiber evidence, you have lots of different things that
• 55:08
  Speaker 2: you can start applying, and so you take opinion out
• 55:10
  Speaker 2: of the situation and you'd start getting more into science
• 55:12
  Speaker 2: and fact. And so I think that's what really hurts
• 55:15
  Speaker 2: us in missing person cases and why when we start
• 55:18
  Speaker 2: looking at missing person cases with this podcast that our
• 55:21
  Speaker 2: phones exploded, because there's lots of people out there that
• 55:24
  Speaker 2: are looking for help and they're not getting it to
• 55:27
  Speaker 2: the satisfaction that they want. But I also want to
• 55:30
  Speaker 2: be fair. I come from a law enforcement background. I've
• 55:32
  Speaker 2: never been law enforcing myself, but my grandfather's law enforcement,
• 55:35
  Speaker 2: my mother was law enforcement, an uncle that was law enforcement.
• 55:38
  Speaker 2: And so with all that being said, I understand the
• 55:42
  Speaker 2: workload that they're under and the stress that they're under.
• 55:44
  Speaker 2: And I know that as soon as they solve this case,
• 55:47
  Speaker 2: if they solve it at all, they're fifteen more right
• 55:49
  Speaker 2: behind it, you know, And so it's extremely difficult. It's
• 55:53
  Speaker 2: an extremely difficult line of work and I can imagine
• 55:56
  Speaker 2: it's probably very I'm sure there's times where it's you know,
• 56:00
  Speaker 2: people are thankful when they were able to solve a problem.
• 56:04
  Speaker 2: But for the most part, I think that you know,
• 56:06
  Speaker 2: a lot of it is wrapped in mystery and broken families,
• 56:10
  Speaker 2: and that you know, they feel that law enforcement isn't
• 56:12
  Speaker 2: doing enough because they're not finding that person. And so
• 56:15
  Speaker 2: I have sympathy on both sides of this, and it's
• 56:18
  Speaker 2: hard to it's hard to separate that sometimes because even
• 56:21
  Speaker 2: when we reach out the law enforcement, we've got this
• 56:22
  Speaker 2: new piece of information and they won't return our call
• 56:25
  Speaker 2: it pisces us off. We're like, dude, we've fed at
• 56:27
  Speaker 2: the crap out of this. We know it's real and
• 56:30
  Speaker 2: it's not in any record that we can find. So
• 56:32
  Speaker 2: we won't talk about stuff on air until we caught
• 56:34
  Speaker 2: the law enforcement and give them the opportunity to tell
• 56:37
  Speaker 2: us whether or not it's legitimate or not. You know.
• 56:41
  Speaker 2: So there's several things in a couple of cases that
• 56:43
  Speaker 2: we found out that we have never said online.
• 56:46
  Speaker 1: Well, and I want to talk about theories a little
• 56:48
  Speaker 1: bit in relation to one of the other stories that
• 56:52
  Speaker 1: we were covering, and this is our missing person Ian
• 56:54
  Speaker 1: Rodgers here out of North Florida. And I had a
• 57:00
  Speaker 1: theory based on what, like I felt in the information
• 57:03
  Speaker 1: that we had Ian. This is a person who also
• 57:05
  Speaker 1: went missing with his vehicle, and he had some significant
• 57:08
  Speaker 1: issues with substance abuse, and I felt very strongly that
• 57:13
  Speaker 1: he had gone off into the woods, parked the truck
• 57:17
  Speaker 1: and had an accidental overdose based on a lot of
• 57:21
  Speaker 1: the information that we were able to gather. And then
• 57:23
  Speaker 1: his truck was found and he's not in it, and
• 57:26
  Speaker 1: so my theory is wrong. He did not have an
• 57:30
  Speaker 1: accidental overdose in his vehicle. They searched for a couple
• 57:34
  Speaker 1: of days and brought in some pretty you know, like
• 57:38
  Speaker 1: expertise search consulting teams. Nothing, no phone, no wallet, no Ian.
• 57:44
  Speaker 1: So that my theory right there.
• 57:47
  Speaker 4: It was wrong.
• 57:48
  Speaker 1: I thought for sure, because as soon as I heard
• 57:50
  Speaker 1: that his truck was fun, I reached out to his
• 57:52
  Speaker 1: mom and I said, how are you Are you doing okay?
• 57:55
  Speaker 1: And then that theory wasn't exactly what happened, and we
• 57:59
  Speaker 1: still know know where Ian is.
• 58:01
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I bought in that one too. We were sitting
• 58:03
  Speaker 2: there going he owed it in that truck. Yeah, and
• 58:05
  Speaker 2: he's going to be found in the truck. Whever that
• 58:06
  Speaker 2: truck happens to you, and that's just not what happened.
• 58:08
  Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's no DNA ORLA as Toess's point, once
• 58:12
  Speaker 1: you have something, because they had nothing until they found
• 58:15
  Speaker 1: his truck. But there's at least as far as they're
• 58:18
  Speaker 1: telling us, nothing in the truck that's leading to any
• 58:22
  Speaker 1: significant foul play. No blood, no nothing. So, yes, we
• 58:25
  Speaker 1: found the truck, and we're still sitting in the same
• 58:28
  Speaker 1: place that we were before without the truck.
• 58:30
  Speaker 2: And that's one of the reasons you get back to
• 58:31
  Speaker 2: audri case is you know, finding the vehicle becomes paramount,
• 58:35
  Speaker 2: and the reason is because you know, her body at
• 58:37
  Speaker 2: this point would be unrecognizable if she in fact is dead,
• 58:40
  Speaker 2: which I think everyone believes that that's probably true. And
• 58:44
  Speaker 2: with that being said, so it leaves the vehicle to
• 58:46
  Speaker 2: track down. And it's it's hard to dispose of a
• 58:49
  Speaker 2: car any kind of permanence because everything serialized, you know,
• 58:54
  Speaker 2: and everything's on car facts at this point, and so
• 58:58
  Speaker 2: you've got, you know, so many different ways to find
• 59:00
  Speaker 2: that car, which is one of the reasons I believe
• 59:02
  Speaker 2: it's underwater because I feel like, you know, every time
• 59:05
  Speaker 2: we've had a vehicle in the woods, it's been found.
• 59:07
  Speaker 2: Our water cars have not been found.
• 59:09
  Speaker 4: Yeah, that's true. Good point.
• 59:12
  Speaker 3: I think I have one question for you guys. Do
• 59:16
  Speaker 3: you have any advice for us as a group as
• 59:20
  Speaker 3: we go forward in our investigation, any like words of
• 59:24
  Speaker 3: wisdom for us?
• 59:28
  Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I can start. The biggest thing is
• 59:30
  Speaker 2: to stay open minded. Whenever you first start to hear
• 59:33
  Speaker 2: people stories, what you have to understand is you're dealing
• 59:37
  Speaker 2: with the emotional aspect of what happened. Now, that doesn't
• 59:40
  Speaker 2: make it less real for that person. So it's real.
• 59:43
  Speaker 2: So you have to be very sensitive how you approach it.
• 59:45
  Speaker 2: But some of it's wild, but you have to get
• 59:48
  Speaker 2: through that, and you have to acknowledge how they got
• 59:50
  Speaker 2: there and that they're just looking for answers, and so
• 59:53
  Speaker 2: providing a lot of empathy to these conversations is really
• 59:56
  Speaker 2: really important. The other thing is don't don't buy into
• 1:00:01
  Speaker 2: wild theories. One of the best things that I think
• 1:00:03
  Speaker 2: we do is people bring us wild theories all the time.
• 1:00:06
  Speaker 2: The very first thing I ask is what's the evidence
• 1:00:09
  Speaker 2: that gets you there? And it usually turns into I
• 1:00:11
  Speaker 2: feel okay, well that doesn't matter. It doesn't matter how
• 1:00:15
  Speaker 2: you feel. I mean, any attorney will tell you it's
• 1:00:17
  Speaker 2: not even It doesn't matter what the truth is. It
• 1:00:19
  Speaker 2: matters what I can prove, and so what can you prove?
• 1:00:23
  Speaker 2: And then usually go, well, I just think this is
• 1:00:24
  Speaker 2: the thing. Great, I think lots of things. That doesn't
• 1:00:27
  Speaker 2: make them real. And so that being said is just
• 1:00:31
  Speaker 2: making sure that you stay very empathetic but also very
• 1:00:34
  Speaker 2: factual in what you approach. There's liability in what we do.
• 1:00:38
  Speaker 2: So like if I go through every episode, I actually
• 1:00:40
  Speaker 2: hear every episode at least four or five times because
• 1:00:43
  Speaker 2: I do all of the editing. And so with that
• 1:00:45
  Speaker 2: being said, i listen for not only the edits, but
• 1:00:47
  Speaker 2: I'm also looking for any potential for libel. And so
• 1:00:51
  Speaker 2: you want to think about that. There are podcasters that
• 1:00:54
  Speaker 2: will get out there and just start making wild accusations.
• 1:00:57
  Speaker 2: What they don't realize is they could be sued to
• 1:01:00
  Speaker 2: oblivion for doing that. And so therefore it's just you know,
• 1:01:04
  Speaker 2: staying rooted in fact, being an empathetic and understanding that
• 1:01:09
  Speaker 2: you have to kind of filter through emotions to get
• 1:01:11
  Speaker 2: down to what most likely happened.
• 1:01:14
  Speaker 4: And I would say, leverage your strengths.
• 1:01:17
  Speaker 1: I'm sure all of you sitting you know, who are
• 1:01:20
  Speaker 1: on this collective have strengths in certain areas. Maybe you
• 1:01:23
  Speaker 1: have someone who's really starting to dabble in I in AI,
• 1:01:27
  Speaker 1: so let's have that person start really playing around with
• 1:01:30
  Speaker 1: AI and see what you can find there. Maybe you
• 1:01:32
  Speaker 1: have someone who loves making spreadsheets. It's not me, it's
• 1:01:36
  Speaker 1: probably Michael. Maybe someone is a they love it, so
• 1:01:40
  Speaker 1: have that person be working on the spreadsheet when you're documenting.
• 1:01:44
  Speaker 1: Maybe you have someone who really is good with understanding maps.
• 1:01:47
  Speaker 1: Then that person and you know, you leverage the strengths
• 1:01:50
  Speaker 1: that you all have. Maybe someone's really good building relationships.
• 1:01:54
  Speaker 1: So that's the person who's going out and trying to
• 1:01:56
  Speaker 1: connect with people. Michael wants to saying.
• 1:01:58
  Speaker 2: I have to interrupt for a second. You are a
• 1:02:00
  Speaker 2: dangerously describing my escape room strategy. It is the escape
• 1:02:04
  Speaker 2: room strategy strategy. We're big escape room people, and so
• 1:02:08
  Speaker 2: we do one for my birthday every year. And I
• 1:02:11
  Speaker 2: always assign people jobs and to figure what they're good at,
• 1:02:13
  Speaker 2: and that's how you get out. And so this sounds
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 2: awfully from Reili.
• 1:02:15
  Speaker 3: That's right.
• 1:02:16
  Speaker 1: I'm the note taker, and let's just tell everybody Michael
• 1:02:18
  Speaker 1: what's your job always I'm the project manic pesel leader,
• 1:02:23
  Speaker 1: and you know what, most of the time we get out,
• 1:02:24
  Speaker 1: we get out right, So I mean both of us
• 1:02:26
  Speaker 1: are coming that from a leadership perspective, just in our
• 1:02:29
  Speaker 1: professional lives. Leverage your strengths if you're not already, find
• 1:02:33
  Speaker 1: out what people are really strong at and use their
• 1:02:36
  Speaker 1: strengths to move.
• 1:02:37
  Speaker 4: Your work forward.
• 1:02:39
  Speaker 3: Awesome, Thank you so much.
• 1:02:41
  Speaker 1: Any last thoughts things that have come up?
• 1:02:44
  Speaker 4: I have a thought, Michael has a thought.
• 1:02:46
  Speaker 2: I want to hear your crazy theory. Who has the
• 1:02:48
  Speaker 2: craziest theory in the.
• 1:02:49
  Speaker 4: Group about Audrey?
• 1:02:50
  Speaker 1: Yeah, something we haven't discussed.
• 1:02:53
  Speaker 2: Even if we have discussed, I love to talk about it.
• 1:02:56
  Speaker 3: Does anyone have one?
• 1:02:57
  Speaker 2: Just put them on the spot. He's gonna tell its
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 2: for crazy.
• 1:02:59
  Speaker 3: Now I feel like Sydney has a theory. Alright, I
• 1:03:04
  Speaker 3: see what's my theory?
• 1:03:06
  Speaker 1: I don't remember my theory document.
• 1:03:09
  Speaker 4: See, you need a note taker.
• 1:03:10
  Speaker 7: Not taker.
• 1:03:11
  Speaker 3: I am the note taker.
• 1:03:13
  Speaker 2: Oh crap, that's not too promising.
• 1:03:16
  Speaker 1: Now I've got I've got.
• 1:03:17
  Speaker 8: I made the whole I made a whole spreadsheet for
• 1:03:19
  Speaker 8: us so that we can keep track of everything.
• 1:03:21
  Speaker 3: I don't know what's my theory nabll. I don't know.
• 1:03:24
  Speaker 3: I just feel like you know so much about it, and.
• 1:03:28
  Speaker 4: You're I don't know, what is your theory.
• 1:03:30
  Speaker 2: Let me ask you a different question, then, Is there
• 1:03:32
  Speaker 2: anything that you think we've got wrong? You guys have
• 1:03:34
  Speaker 2: studied this case.
• 1:03:36
  Speaker 3: I don't think so.
• 1:03:38
  Speaker 8: I think that hearing from Maria and Marie, if I
• 1:03:42
  Speaker 8: have their names right, was probably the most enlightening part
• 1:03:47
  Speaker 8: of all of this, because I think that, at least
• 1:03:49
  Speaker 8: for me, I went into it not sure how I felt,
• 1:03:54
  Speaker 8: and their interviews definitely seered me toward a very particular
• 1:03:58
  Speaker 8: line of thinking that I'm still not sure is correct.
• 1:04:03
  Speaker 8: I don't remember who said it earlier, but it seems
• 1:04:05
  Speaker 8: like the evidence points in so many different directions. There's
• 1:04:09
  Speaker 8: no direction in which there isn't evidence that's.
• 1:04:12
  Speaker 1: Rights such a theory.
• 1:04:16
  Speaker 9: But I just it ha to be foul play in
• 1:04:18
  Speaker 9: my mind. I just like, I don't see another option
• 1:04:22
  Speaker 9: with like no sign of a car wreck or anything like.
• 1:04:25
  Speaker 9: It could be underwater, but I don't know. It just
• 1:04:28
  Speaker 9: it really feels like something very nefarious have here.
• 1:04:32
  Speaker 2: Yeah, and that's that's a theory we can't eliminate. So
• 1:04:34
  Speaker 2: it's one of those things that I actually have the
• 1:04:37
  Speaker 2: red car slash foul play kind of ranked the same,
• 1:04:40
  Speaker 2: which because I'm not able to find that piece of
• 1:04:42
  Speaker 2: evidence that steers one way or the other. That's where
• 1:04:45
  Speaker 2: I struggle.
• 1:04:47
  Speaker 8: And I think for those of us living in the area,
• 1:04:50
  Speaker 8: just knowing how rural it is, it is so remote
• 1:04:54
  Speaker 8: depending on where you are, but it can be really
• 1:04:58
  Speaker 8: really dark at night and very very lonely. And I yeah, I'm, I'm,
• 1:05:05
  Speaker 8: I'm with Jamie. I feel like in my gut something
• 1:05:07
  Speaker 8: went wrong, especially considering her youth, her beauty, her size.
• 1:05:14
  Speaker 8: It all to me it points to that. But again,
• 1:05:17
  Speaker 8: we're in a super rural area. Anything coulda happened.
• 1:05:21
  Speaker 3: And I think to that point too, maybe I find
• 1:05:26
  Speaker 3: myself like not being as I found myself leaning like
• 1:05:32
  Speaker 3: almost pigeonholing myself in certain lines of thinking because I
• 1:05:36
  Speaker 3: am so familiar with this area and to think to
• 1:05:41
  Speaker 3: think about these things happening in your backyard is like
• 1:05:45
  Speaker 3: horrifying in places like where Audrey went missing, Like I
• 1:05:50
  Speaker 3: used to have an Amazon locker there, like and I
• 1:05:53
  Speaker 3: used to go there, and you learn that you know
• 1:05:57
  Speaker 3: what your daily trip was to go to your Amazon locker,
• 1:05:59
  Speaker 3: was person's last day that we know of. And yeah,
• 1:06:06
  Speaker 3: I mean, I think to Sydney's point, it is so
• 1:06:09
  Speaker 3: there are parts of this area that are so rural
• 1:06:14
  Speaker 3: and so open that it's almost over Like I can't
• 1:06:18
  Speaker 3: almost imagine how Adventures with Purpose feels because they're you know,
• 1:06:23
  Speaker 3: even with all their technology, there is so much area
• 1:06:26
  Speaker 3: to cover. But I also I do maybe I tend
• 1:06:31
  Speaker 3: to be more of an optimist in the way I think,
• 1:06:35
  Speaker 3: but I really do feel like these things, anything can
• 1:06:40
  Speaker 3: truly be solved with the right information at hand. And
• 1:06:44
  Speaker 3: you know, we're seeing cases that have been solved like
• 1:06:47
  Speaker 3: the Boy in the Box that was solved in Jack
• 1:06:49
  Speaker 3: the I mean cases that were over one hundred like
• 1:06:52
  Speaker 3: over one hundred years old.
• 1:06:54
  Speaker 2: Ye I do.
• 1:06:56
  Speaker 3: I do think that there will come a time where
• 1:07:00
  Speaker 3: something will be dispelled, there will be some information that
• 1:07:03
  Speaker 3: becomes uncovered. And I think, like what we're doing, I
• 1:07:08
  Speaker 3: don't think anything that you guys have said is necessarily
• 1:07:11
  Speaker 3: wrong or that you're going in the wrong direction. I
• 1:07:13
  Speaker 3: think you're very on it, and I think we just
• 1:07:17
  Speaker 3: have to keep going that way with that's the only
• 1:07:21
  Speaker 3: way that this stuff ever gets solved or that people
• 1:07:23
  Speaker 3: learn about it. And another thing too, is that there's
• 1:07:26
  Speaker 3: a whole something that we haven't talked about in this area.
• 1:07:30
  Speaker 3: There's a whole influx of new residents in this area.
• 1:07:34
  Speaker 3: So a lot of people that live in the Catskill
• 1:07:38
  Speaker 3: Hudson Valley region have moved up from New York City
• 1:07:40
  Speaker 3: in the past six seven years post pandemic that may
• 1:07:43
  Speaker 3: not know Audrey's story that you know where people who
• 1:07:48
  Speaker 3: have lived here for you know, their whole lives will
• 1:07:52
  Speaker 3: know it. So I think continuing especially with this with
• 1:07:57
  Speaker 3: the population change, who knows, maybe the more we keep talking,
• 1:08:02
  Speaker 3: maybe something else will come. Maybe there's a benefit from
• 1:08:05
  Speaker 3: newer people being up here with fresh eyes taking a
• 1:08:09
  Speaker 3: look at it well.
• 1:08:10
  Speaker 1: And this is why I join all the local Facebook pages.
• 1:08:13
  Speaker 1: When we support a new family, I find out like
• 1:08:17
  Speaker 1: where are the Facebook neighborhood Facebook pages? And I join
• 1:08:21
  Speaker 1: all of them as we're leading up to it, so
• 1:08:23
  Speaker 1: that I can, you know, put our work in the
• 1:08:25
  Speaker 1: things that we're doing into those groups, so that the
• 1:08:28
  Speaker 1: people who are new to the area have an idea
• 1:08:31
  Speaker 1: of what has happened.
• 1:08:33
  Speaker 7: I would say, I think the thing I've found most
• 1:08:35
  Speaker 7: compelling that I learned from podcast was when you were
• 1:08:37
  Speaker 7: speaking with Adventures with purpose him bringing up the fact
• 1:08:41
  Speaker 7: that there's all these bodies of water on private property,
• 1:08:44
  Speaker 7: and I know the area well because she would have
• 1:08:46
  Speaker 7: left from right by my house and I used to
• 1:08:48
  Speaker 7: take a similar route to my job, and so there's
• 1:08:52
  Speaker 7: not a lot of like public bodies of water that
• 1:08:54
  Speaker 7: she could have just crashed off of onto the road
• 1:08:58
  Speaker 7: unless she was not on one of those roads going
• 1:09:01
  Speaker 7: to exactly where our ourse was. And so I think
• 1:09:05
  Speaker 7: I think that really lends a lot of freedence to
• 1:09:09
  Speaker 7: the foul play theories because of the fact that I
• 1:09:14
  Speaker 7: think it makes the most sense that if her car
• 1:09:16
  Speaker 7: is in the water, it is on private property and
• 1:09:19
  Speaker 7: it was probably put there, not crashed there exactly.
• 1:09:29
  Speaker 1: You've been listening to Tragedy, a true crime podcast. Our
• 1:09:33
  Speaker 1: purpose is to honor victims by sharing their stories through
• 1:09:36
  Speaker 1: the voices of friends, family, and those whose lives were
• 1:09:39
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