Latest / The BEYOND Podcast / Mike LaCorte: Power, Trust and the Private Investigation World

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Mike LaCorte: Power, Trust and the Private Investigation World · The BEYOND Podcast

0:00
Unknown: MMMM welcome to be on the boardroom.
0:06
I am very excited to pick your brain about all things PII was
0:11
thinking of how to introduce you, you know, so that the
0:13
audience understand who you are and really like your skills and
0:17
your talents and all these things.
0:20
I think the way to sum it up in the, in the simplest form is
0:24
that I would describe you as the absolute creme de la Creme of
0:30
the private investigation world. Not only are you yourself a
0:34
talented private investigator, but you run an entire massive
0:37
company leading private investigators, and you're on all
0:42
these forums and all these associations of private
0:44
investigators. So I'm just going to let you
0:48
describe what it is that you do. OK.
0:51
So thank you actually for being on this, this podcast, this
0:55
opportunity. So I, I consider myself a
0:58
professional international investigator.
1:00
That, that that's what I would consider myself moving away from
1:04
the term private investigator because when you hear the term
1:08
private investigator, most people assume rain Max
1:13
newspapers with holes in, you know, eating Donuts in the back
1:16
of a car, watching someone secretly.
1:18
So the role of an investigator has changed since when I started
1:22
to what it is now. And that if you were to say,
1:25
when someone says to me, what do you do?
1:27
I'd say I'm an international investigator, a professional
1:29
international investigator or a professional investigator.
1:32
Still the term Pi but moving from private to professional.
1:36
Wow, you're an investigator, right?
1:38
So. In the private.
1:40
Sector in the private sector. So I mean, I was having a little
1:43
laugh with my husband all the way here because I was like,
1:46
Mike probably knows what we're talking about right now.
1:49
Careful what you say. Mike probably knows what I had
1:51
for breakfast. Mike knows how much we've got on
1:54
our bank accounts. Mike knows exactly what emails
1:56
I've sent, how prepared for this podcast, everything about our
1:59
lives and so on. That's probably an exaggeration
2:02
is there? But if you wanted to know.
2:04
That's a huge exaggeration. I mean, look, you, you need a
2:07
reason, you need, you know, a case is, is mounted for a
2:10
purpose and a reason. And then we, we kick it off that
2:13
way so we wouldn't be looking at your emails and your bank
2:15
accounts. Alexander that you can't.
2:17
You can't really do that in the private.
2:20
We'll get to what you cannot do. OK, so when is it necessary then
2:25
to hire someone such as yourself?
2:28
OK, so we're, we, we are what we call a distress purchase.
2:31
So you don't book us like you book a holiday for next year or,
2:34
or anything like that. So there must, there has to be
2:36
an event in your life where you require understanding what
2:40
happened, how it happened and trying to connect those
2:43
historical dots. Usually you've, you're involved
2:46
in a situation where you've got no clarity and that could be a
2:48
private, a private person situation, matrimonial for
2:51
example, you've been scammed, you've been defrauded by someone
2:54
either online virtually or, or, or one of your, someone you do
2:58
business with. So there's an event that's
2:59
happened and you need to try and connect the dots.
3:01
That's where we come in. OK.
3:04
So you want to connect the dots, we call, you pick up the phone
3:09
and you connect the dots. So what kind of a person then
3:13
typically hires? We generally work for three
3:16
groups, the legal teams, so lawyers representing individuals
3:20
who have had issues or who require intelligence or
3:23
investigative support, litigation support, corporates
3:27
that have ongoing issues. And that could be anything from
3:30
screening employees that start a new position, doing KYC and DD
3:34
on business checks and mergers. Sorry, know your know your
3:38
client KYC, you know, that's quite a big thing to do at the
3:42
moment in terms if you're doing business with a third party, you
3:45
need to know who you're working for or who you're doing business
3:50
with and making sure there's no red flags there.
3:53
So those are consented checks that we would do for corporate.
3:56
And then the third group, which can sometimes be the most
3:59
interesting group are family offices.
4:01
And family offices cover private individuals, but but private
4:06
individuals of a certain say let's say mid stroke high net
4:08
worth who have independent family offices managing their
4:14
their family. Oh, OK, so legal lawyers,
4:18
corporate and then. Family offices, which cover
4:21
private individuals as well. Yeah.
4:23
So those are the three groups. OK, OK.
4:27
Typically, and probably I'm leaning more towards the private
4:30
individuals here. What is the emotional state of
4:34
these clients when they come to you?
4:37
What's the most typical? Is it distressed?
4:40
Is it curious? Is it vindictive revenge?
4:42
What? What's the main sort of vibe you
4:44
get on an emotional level? There is when it's someone
4:49
personal, if it's a business transaction, it's very black and
4:52
white, OK, that you've got a reason to hire us and we're
4:56
going to uncover those facts and present a report.
5:00
When it's family situation, then there is emotion that can cloud
5:04
judgement and there is sometimes not only cloud judgement on the
5:10
the client side, but cloud judgement in terms of
5:13
proportionality, in terms of how far you keep going.
5:15
Because hiring an investigator can sometimes be addictive.
5:20
And I'll tell you why. Yeah, I was.
5:22
Going to ask you, actually. I'll tell you why, yeah.
5:24
If you believe that someone in your trusted circle is behaving
5:30
inappropriately and that doesn't necessarily mean an affair or
5:33
anything like that, it could be, you know, anything that they
5:35
shouldn't be doing and you mount, you decide to contact an
5:41
investigator to conduct a period of surveillance, for example, to
5:44
confirm or deny whether there's been any inappropriate
5:46
behaviour. That power in terms of
5:50
monitoring a third party and knowing where they're going, who
5:53
they're meeting and what they're doing to the right type of
5:57
client who has maybe a addictive personality because a lot of the
6:02
higher net worth individuals are in those positions because they
6:07
are motivated to succeed. Can on occasion, and I'm not
6:11
saying this is a as a blanket statement, but can on occasion
6:14
become addicted to the information and these. 100%,
6:18
especially if you've got someone a little bit controlling, you
6:21
know, and successful people like to control the outcome, which
6:26
determines more success. So yes, I can see that actually.
6:30
So this puts the balance on the professional investigator to do
6:35
what's proportionate and legitimate to the case.
6:38
We're gonna, we're gonna get 2 morals.
6:40
We're gonna get tomorrow's OK. But yes, so you've got this.
6:44
So yeah, there is the type of person that will most likely
6:47
come to you. And there are intentions and
6:49
emotional triggers, especially on the private side.
6:52
And you're saying on the corporate side, it's much more
6:54
black and white. You know, we just want to know
6:55
facts here. It's not personal.
6:57
It's just more facts. And yes, unless you have a
7:00
corporate, which we've done many of these 222 scenarios, 1 is
7:05
when individuals of say, I don't know, senior management are on
7:10
gardening leave and they're running a group of clients.
7:13
Generally in the fund world where senior managers are
7:15
running client money, fund money and on gardening leave and they
7:19
may poach clients to another competitor.
7:21
There can be some emotion in there because that's a position
7:24
of power and or an internal insider threat, someone selling,
7:29
stealing company secrets, someone trying to damage the
7:34
brand, the board, depending on the company can become a little
7:39
bit, well, we want to go after this individual.
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We need to know who, why, how and who's communicating, what
7:45
are the next steps and, and what can we do?
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So they'll consult their legal teams, they'll consult their
7:50
investigation intelligence teams and work out a strategy in terms
7:53
of getting a solution. So there's there's a few moving
7:55
parts and that always happens in the journey of an investigation.
7:59
OK, So what won't you legally take on?
8:04
So we'll, we'll take anything that's legal.
8:06
So as long as we're legally allowed to do it, what we won't,
8:09
what you can't do, and. Let me rephrase it.
8:11
Sorry, what won't you take on? What sort of cases will you not
8:14
touch? So we have an on boarding
8:16
process and any client that comes to us will need to do our
8:19
usual KYC. Like I said to you before,
8:21
knowing who we're working for, the reasons why we need to have
8:24
a legitimate interest to investigate.
8:26
We can't. You can't just say to me, hey,
8:27
Mike, I want you to follow that person there for a month.
8:32
Why? I need to know why, what you're
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trying to achieve what? What are we doing this?
8:36
What's the purpose, what's the intent?
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And I need to make sure that we are providing proportionate
8:41
investigative tools to achieve your objective.
8:44
I need to confirm really whether you've got a case or not.
8:46
And this isn't stalking or harassment, right?
8:48
Wow. So you really have a proven case
8:50
that you guys will say right that that's fair you.
8:53
Know yeah, yeah, we we would yeah, we would have the
8:56
consultation. We understand what the reasons
8:57
are we will provide the the tools and the methods.
9:00
It may not be surveillance is the tool.
9:02
It may be that we can do alternative research to provide
9:06
you the results that you need. So we would on board you
9:10
properly things that we don't do in misconceptions.
9:12
Can you hack someone's phone? I want to go into someone's bank
9:15
account. I want to go and see everyone's
9:17
emails. Can you look at their WhatsApp
9:18
messages, all these things when a client asks you that at the
9:23
first time, at the first question, I know that this
9:26
client isn't really clear in what what they need.
9:31
So I, my question is what you're trying to achieve.
9:35
So I want you to get, I want all the WhatsApp messages my husband
9:38
sent for the last month. Well, what, what, what is the
9:41
purpose, what you're trying to achieve?
9:42
Oh, you want to know whether he's having an inappropriate
9:43
relationship? OK, Well, going into his
9:46
WhatsApp message is 1 illegal, 2 probably may not give you the
9:50
information, right? It may not, It may not give you
9:53
the answers that you need. So let me, as your professional
9:55
investigator, tell you the steps that we can do legally,
9:58
ethically. We're going to get to Chief.
9:59
Sure. I want to know that I have a
10:02
problem, but I want to know. I want to know about that
10:05
particular one. But OK, so you have to onboard
10:07
them properly. You've got to know there's a
10:08
case, then you take it on. Yeah.
10:10
So for a private individual, he wants to know something, you
10:15
know, let's just say there is some cheating.
10:19
Would it be legal for me or anyone else watching to say?
10:22
But I would, I would like to hire you to investigate this
10:26
potential case of cheating. Is that legal?
10:29
It's it's definitely legal. It needs to be proportionate.
10:32
So you couldn't say to me, hey, Mike, can you follow my husband
10:35
for the next five years or the next six months just just to see
10:39
that he's put 1 foot wrong? It's disproportionate to the
10:43
aim, right? You, you know, if you're saying,
10:45
oh, my husband's coming back home on a Tuesday and Thursday
10:48
night regularly from this work drinks.
10:51
He's always got work drinks or he's playing.
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Yeah, he's playing snooker every Thursday.
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He's never plays snooker. Where's that come from?
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Or there's a his routines change.
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Actually dressing differently, he looks a bit better.
11:01
He's using perfume. He's using.
11:03
Less exactly then you're thinking.
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There's something not quite right here there.
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That's my legitimate interest. I understand.
11:10
OK, so we're going to step a little bit away from that and
11:12
just into being a private or how you say international
11:16
investigator. So do you have to have certain
11:20
skills like how do you determine whether someone and, and you,
11:22
you hire these investigators? So what skills do you need in
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terms of personality, skills and education?
11:28
Like, well, how? How do you even become one?
11:30
Yeah, actually, right. Again, that role has changed.
11:33
When I started in the industry most people were either ex
11:35
military, ex police. Military.
11:38
Yeah, ex intelligence and whilst there is that still in the
11:44
market, we've got a lot of younger investigators that are
11:48
interested or younger individuals that are interested
11:49
in a career in private professional investigation work.
11:53
So there's skills for justice and MVQ Level 3 courses out now
11:57
that never work. It's, it's, it's a relatively,
12:02
let's say it's an introductory course to the world of private
12:05
investigations. OK, so there's a course you.
12:07
Can, yeah, you can actually attend now and, and do that and
12:10
become qualified. I'll tell you one thing
12:12
Alexandra, there's no licensing for the investigation in the UK
12:16
at the moment. There's no legal license to
12:18
practice, which is pretty strange because interesting.
12:22
Yeah, the UK is one of the oldest countries that have a
12:27
private investigation world. Let's say it hasn't.
12:30
Lasted so long without a license.
12:32
So we are self regulated. So I, I'm the president of the
12:35
Association of British Investigators, which is a group
12:38
of professional investigators in the UK and overseas actually.
12:42
And we are self regulated. So in order to become a member
12:44
of this association, you need to have a clear criminal record
12:48
check. There's you need to be clear of
12:50
any, there's credit, there's a couple of references you need to
12:54
have indemnity and insurance. So there's a whole, there's a
12:58
whole on boarding process and those investigators, some 400
13:04
that represent the association are all found on on the website.
13:08
So if anyone needed an investigator, let's say locally
13:10
in a certain jurisdiction, you could find one there that's been
13:12
vetted and checked. So there is no license.
13:15
So and you're asking me about what, what skills you need?
13:20
Great question. So now we've got individuals
13:23
coming into the market with journalist type skills, banking
13:26
skills, legal understanding the legal system.
13:28
So the role of an investigator is changing and changed, and it
13:32
will continue to change. About like spy skills and
13:35
manipulation skills or like, you know, I mean, whether you're a
13:39
good communicator or not, all those sort of things.
13:41
I mean journalists. That's probably communication.
13:43
Yeah, communication, reading people knowing how to people.
13:45
Yeah, knowing how to ask a line of question and if you're taking
13:49
an interview, for example, those skills can be pretty useful.
13:54
Languages, a lot of people overlook that speaking more than
13:57
one language because we are in a small and ever reducing global
14:03
landscape. But lots of people have more
14:05
than one footprint around the world nowadays, right?
14:07
Especially with access to global data, social media and whatever
14:10
else. So a lot of the individuals we
14:13
investigate have international connections and speaking and
14:16
understanding foreign cultures, languages, processes, what you
14:20
can and can't do. It's very important as well to
14:22
become a well-rounded investigator as well as as well
14:26
as understanding how to navigate databases, intelligence
14:30
gathering, field work. There's quite quite a lot of
14:32
moving parts so. Yeah, of course, because, yeah,
14:35
you are global and you've got these investigators all around
14:38
the world and you can tap into your resources wherever it is,
14:41
whichever countries there won't name any.
14:42
But yeah, you want to tap in and know that they know how to
14:45
behave in that country and not stick out like a sore thumb and
14:47
draw attention to themselves and then blow the case, right?
14:50
I mean, it's part of it. Yeah, if you're, if you're
14:53
actively on the ground and you're working in a foreign
14:55
jurisdiction, yeah, you'd need to body up with local expertise.
15:00
Oh, OK. So it's legal.
15:03
There are certain skills that you would need to have.
15:06
So earlier before before the podcast, we touched a little bit
15:12
on AI and that whole side of things because obviously AI is
15:15
now massive. So can you know someone like
15:20
yourself, an investigator, track someone's movements just using
15:23
social media and public data and a combination of AI?
15:26
Is that sort of? Is that enough?
15:29
It's laying up. So we everyone now has two
15:32
reputations. We've got this reputation, your
15:35
physical reputation, and you have your online footprint, your
15:38
online reputation. Wow.
15:40
That's scary thinking you have. It like that you need to protect
15:42
both right? Nowadays, especially if you are
15:45
online and you, you know, you either conduct your business or
15:49
you're, you're active, you need to protect both those
15:52
reputations. So, but there's a caveat.
15:55
You can also pretend to be whoever you want online as well.
15:58
So for an investigator, we're very, very eyes wide open in
16:02
terms of when we're looking at available open source data.
16:06
There are numerous tools out there that we use to scrape and
16:11
analyze online footprint, whether you can just use AI on
16:15
its own at the moment. I'm an old school investigator,
16:20
right? Whilst we leverage the tools
16:22
that are out there and those tools are evolving all the time.
16:25
Rapidly. And some of the younger guys in
16:28
the team are a lot more skilled and try and close cases from
16:31
their desks. So every time I'm in my office I
16:33
say like you cannot close a case just by sitting at your machine.
16:37
So whilst you believe you may have found everything, get out
16:41
on the street, go and go and do the covert work.
16:44
Go and do the interviews. Go and do those.
16:46
Inquiries. There's more to it, yeah.
16:48
Well, you've, you've done a complete, complete check.
16:50
You haven't just scraped the data that you've found, put
16:53
together the report and come to a conclusion.
16:56
Go and speak to neighbors. Go and speak to do do some field
16:59
stuff. Yeah, that's where you're going
17:01
to get real. You're.
17:02
Right. It's the only part of the
17:03
picture. I mean, we know for ourselves
17:05
it's not the full picture of who you are online.
17:07
There is who you actually are. Offline, you're right and and
17:11
the the younger generation coming in are leaning more
17:15
towards online desktop tools only.
17:18
And I see that shift when I started where there was no AI,
17:22
no, no online, there was hardly any databases to be honest with
17:25
you. A lot of that we had to go to
17:26
the libraries and micro fish and look for, you know, registries
17:30
physically taking hours and hours and hours looking through,
17:33
you know, small bits of data to try and find whatever he was
17:36
looking for. Whereas now you see like, you
17:37
know, it's a millisecond. So I think that's going to
17:40
change even more. OK, so I've got a question for
17:42
you. So I've got my phone.
17:43
So this has been debated about for a long time, but you know,
17:48
is your phone actually tracking what you're saying?
17:52
I mean, there's all these different companies and things
17:54
that might be tapping into this technology and then feeding you
17:57
the ads off the back of what they hear.
17:59
Your Alexa, your whatever, whatever, your Google Ness,
18:02
whatever it is that you're using all these devices listening to
18:04
us and then feeding back the ads.
18:07
And can it then be used in a corrupt way saying, by the way,
18:12
can you guys say anytime they mention this or they talk about
18:15
this, give me that information? That's quite sinister and dark,
18:19
isn't it? That's like having someone in
18:21
your house spying on you. OK, that's a brilliant question
18:24
and I get asked this quite a lot.
18:26
OK, in the short answer is yes, OK, but the long no, but the
18:33
long answer there, there you know there, there are some steps
18:36
through this process there. Are so we're being spied on,
18:39
basically. So you use the word spied, OK.
18:42
And that's where that's where this is differentiated.
18:45
When you download an app from, whether it's the App Store,
18:48
Google Play, wherever you're downloading your apps from,
18:51
there are some non consensual and consensual privacy policies.
18:56
No one's reading that. No, no.
18:58
And and some of that does collect location data,
19:01
information data, some things that you put in you can send to
19:04
give in your e-mail, you can send to sharing your analytics,
19:07
for example, how you're using your device and how you're
19:10
interacting on that particular app and that information is
19:13
shared. That's this is where GDPR come
19:15
in, in 2018 to protect the consumer against mass marketing
19:20
that was that was going on there, you know, unsolicited
19:23
marketing emails and calls and whatever else solicited.
19:26
So, so there are apps, numerous apps can can send you track your
19:30
location, but they need to, some of them need to, and I'm going
19:33
to give you the examples now, Deliveroo, Uber, any of the maps
19:37
you use, they need to know where you are in order for you to use
19:40
the service. So you know if you are going to
19:43
consent your location information to those types of
19:46
apps, only do it whilst you're using the app.
19:48
So you can you can highlight select consent to share only
19:53
whilst using the app, not always you have always whilst using the
19:56
app. Corner.
19:57
But are they listening to you? Are they listening to you?
19:59
Some may be, some may listen. OK, it's it's there are numerous
20:03
platforms that can access the microphone, the camera.
20:06
Why are they? Do they really need to be
20:07
listening to what I'm saying at home?
20:10
I tell you, that's a great. Your phone is listening to
20:13
multi. Area that one.
20:14
Your phone is listening to you all the time.
20:16
Just say hey Siri to your phone now.
20:17
No, I. Don't but.
20:19
But have you got it disabled? Right?
20:20
So, but what I'm saying to you is it it's listening to you.
20:23
So, so it not to spy on you, but to make your life that you've
20:28
chosen, that you think you've chosen with your device easier.
20:32
That's how you no, I understand that, yes.
20:33
And that's what it is. And people go, oh, your devices
20:36
are spying on you. OK, using the word spying is
20:41
where that's a third party trying to target and listen to
20:46
what you're doing in your personal time without your
20:48
consent. Yes, that's spying.
20:50
So the apps and the phones and the technology and the use of
20:56
say voice automated recognition and tools, that's I don't put
21:01
that in the same category as spying.
21:04
But of course the technology is there, so you will have people
21:08
that try and take, you know, a, a knife can be used, you know,
21:11
to to cut something open, you know, to slice an apple.
21:14
It can also be used in knife one in the back.
21:16
So exactly that is the I mean. Great analogy.
21:19
And that's the same thing. And it's the same thing.
21:21
Should we ban knives? Good point, good point.
21:26
However, so in, in, in the world that you're in, I mean, you
21:31
might let, obviously you wouldn't use sinister tactics
21:34
like that, but there might be others that are using that
21:37
against one of your clients. And in that case you would have
21:40
to come in and investigate and go, well, hang on a minute.
21:42
Now you're tracking exactly what they're supposed to say in their
21:44
private time and you're finding out information.
21:46
And I mean, that could be seriously awful.
21:49
Everything you say at home, in the privacy of you know who
21:52
you're talking about, what you're saying, your financial
21:56
details, any investments you're making.
21:59
I mean, yeah, look, if you're if you've been targeted by a group
22:02
and and that this happens right it.
22:04
Does happen. Yeah, if you.
22:05
Yeah, dependent, yeah. You know, depending on who, who
22:08
the ultimate client is and their motivation, we've been called in
22:13
to conduct technical sweeps. So what that means is you go in
22:16
with scanning equipment and you do what's called a physical and
22:21
a technical search of the office or the residential address and
22:25
you're checking for listening devices, forum frequencies, bugs
22:31
as we call them, transmit, hidden cameras, anything that
22:34
could have been installed by a third party.
22:36
I mean risks. Nowadays, these devices, if you
22:39
were just a Google bug or hidden camera or hidden microphone,
22:44
they're so accessible. Years ago it was very you needed
22:46
to be a, you know, a secret MI 5 agent to be able to deploy this
22:50
kit years ago. Now you can go and buy any
22:52
miniature bugs online for. My house Swift listen when I'm
22:55
when I bought I do. I don't want to swift.
22:57
I'm getting really paranoid now. There was an article in the in
23:00
the Pred. Yeah.
23:00
There was an article in the in it was discussed in the news
23:02
yesterday about landlords putting covert cameras in.
23:07
Oh, yeah. Did you see that?
23:08
Right. So we we wrote something about
23:09
that. Yeah, to spy on their tenants
23:13
and, and someone went to prison for it.
23:14
So we're now in the top end, top end rental property addresses.
23:18
We are before, let's say I don't know, a family want to rent from
23:22
overseas in London for a year or whatever else.
23:25
We're going in to do a technical sweep to make sure that that
23:29
property is safe and secure, so. OK, so I'm going to ask you
23:33
something. So we we were in an Airbnb the
23:35
other day and we're just watching whatever Mamma Mia or
23:39
something like that. And then the Alexa device came
23:43
on and it was actually a child talked to us and was like making
23:48
silly sounds like, you know, you know, whatever.
23:50
So then my daughter talked back, was like, and that kid talked
23:54
back. So there was a connection, a
23:55
remote connection to the property that we were staying
24:00
in. I mean, that can't be.
24:01
I mean, we've obviously raised it, but that's not legal, no.
24:04
No, that's yeah, you're you're that's the invasion of your
24:07
privacy. Yes, right there.
24:09
No, that's that's not. And you you did raise it with
24:11
Airbnb. Yeah, we did.
24:12
Yeah, we raised it with Airbnb. You'd be surprised how common
24:16
this really is. Now it's.
24:18
Not right. It's not right, it's not legal,
24:20
it's not ethical, but you're going to have some owners who
24:23
maybe have had their Airbnb properties trashed or had
24:26
issues, right, that want to protect themselves.
24:31
But also what I've also found is, and it's usually in the sort
24:35
of high net worth celebrity celebrity arena where they're
24:38
staying in top end hotels. People know that.
24:41
Let's say for example, I know you've got the Film Festival or
24:44
something big coming into town and you're targeting, you're an
24:48
investigative individual who wants to get some dirt or wants
24:52
to get a story to try and make some money.
24:54
They may stay in these nice hotels and put something in
24:57
there. So check in, stay in the hotel,
24:59
put something in, check out and then in the hope that a
25:02
celebrity will stay in this nice room.
25:05
Goodness, I'm never. Saying no, no, but no, no, I'm
25:10
not. I'm not saying that happens all
25:11
the time, but but then you have some of these high net worth
25:15
that will have their rooms swept.
25:17
That is just part of their security protocol.
25:19
I want to have that done now I have been considered because I
25:22
do feel uncomfortable going into hotel and I do.
25:25
It's not paranoid mine. I do sort of think, well, what
25:27
if there's a camera in here or there might be, you know, it's.
25:31
Hard. Well, well, yeah, there might be
25:32
usually, you know, some of the rooms you stay in the top end
25:35
rooms, Alexandra, you know that you know those that you don't
25:38
know. I mean, I remember years ago, I
25:42
won't mention the hotel. It's in central London.
25:46
We were looking after some foreign dignitaries for a week
25:50
and in the in the room sweeping we check all the rooms.
25:54
One of the these rooms provided laptops to their guests.
25:57
This was a long time ago where they had like laptops in the
26:00
room. The laptop was open and there
26:03
was a whole e-mail account open. So we checked and it was someone
26:07
super well known and we emailed back saying your, your laptop
26:16
has been left. We're a security team.
26:18
Your laptop has been left open. Don't worry, we've closed it
26:20
down. And the, the, you know, so any
26:23
unauthorized third party restriction, there's no risk.
26:25
And this individual emailed back, thank you.
26:27
And that was that we didn't have any more.
26:29
But if that was not us, let's say for example and a cleaner or
26:34
a. Yeah, you can sell that
26:35
information. Huge information.
26:37
I mean that it was, you know, all their personal details, all
26:40
the communication between who this individual was and third
26:43
parties. It was huge.
26:46
You know that is huge that. Is huge selling like this was?
26:49
Blow up. Blow up it was over 1010 years
26:52
ago but there you go you know those risks exist it's.
26:56
Frightening. OK, so we touched on this a
26:59
little bit, but if, if let's say I wanted to hire someone just to
27:04
find out if if I'm being watched, can I do that?
27:07
So I'm just worried that. You've been tracked.
27:10
Tracked, stalked, harassed, blackmailed, for example.
27:13
Yeah, we do that that, that, that would there's a few lines
27:18
of service there. So there'll be counter
27:19
surveillance of a team that would work with you to make sure
27:23
that you're not being watched, monitored.
27:25
We will check your online footprint as well to see whether
27:29
there's any third parties that are routinely monitoring you
27:34
Monitoring. Stalking.
27:35
What about like the trolls online that get out of hand if
27:39
you have one of those super trolley trolls that keep
27:41
spamming you and harassing you if you have if that I mean that
27:44
exists. Look, yeah, again, it's, it
27:47
depends on the individual. It depends on on the case.
27:49
But you know, there are certain steps you can take to block
27:53
those. And the more in the public eye
27:55
you are, the more risk you have of that, to be honest with you.
27:59
And it's part and parcel of putting yourself out there, I'm
28:01
afraid, unless of course, there's a, a blackmail issue,
28:07
which is a criminal offence. So for example, I'm going to do
28:11
this if you don't do this. And it doesn't have to be money,
28:15
it could be anything. So any blackmail, any blackmail,
28:18
that is we, we investigate those routinely.
28:21
And that, that is where we try and connect the dots in terms of
28:24
identifying the individual or third parties behind the
28:27
attempt. And we'll either work with a
28:30
legal team to get a cease synthesis letter going on or.
28:32
What about if like a threat, like a threat to your safety or
28:36
something, I'm going to get you or something like that.
28:38
That must happen a lot. Threat to life, threat to
28:41
safety. To your family.
28:43
Yeah, that that happens again. Again, our response needs to be
28:48
proportionate. If these if these individuals
28:50
are open and they're not hiding, so their identities are open,
28:53
then there are there's the authorities that will get
28:54
involved in. We can do that.
28:57
If they're hiding, then there are other ways that we can try
29:01
and connect the dots, but we're we're pushing for the social
29:03
media companies to step up as well and do a little bit more.
29:06
Yeah, it's the IT is. It can be whilst there is
29:10
somewhat going on, it can be the world W at times as well where
29:13
you can see what's going on online.
29:14
You know there are bots that have been created just to.
29:17
To harass and foment people, yeah.
29:20
So have you ever had a client lie to test or trick you?
29:24
Have you ever had a a situation where the side that's asked you
29:27
to do something? I'm going to ask, I'm going to
29:30
take, I would say this statement now is everybody lies, Everybody
29:36
lies. OK, think about that.
29:39
And whether you're whenever you put your case across everyone
29:46
not, I'm not saying they're lying for the right or wrong
29:48
reasons, but everyone does and, and whoever says they'd never
29:51
lie is, is lying. So.
29:54
Well, my grandmother used to say that white lie that she was, you
29:57
know, very Christian woman and she's to confess in the church
30:00
for hours and hours in that she never did anything wrong,
30:02
literally wouldn't harm fly. But she said you know that the
30:05
time when it's OK to lie is a white lie to protect somebody or
30:09
to not everyone needs to know everything.
30:12
If you then because I'm so honorable, I want to tell the
30:14
truth all the time. Well actually your truth might
30:17
be so incredibly damaging and cause chaos and disrupt the
30:20
whole world system, sometimes just gently life.
30:26
So a white lie is a lie or not, or not a lie.
30:29
I think you've got to look at the greater picture.
30:31
You can't beat. So you've got to look at like,
30:33
look, sometimes you've got to think about the greater benefit
30:36
to everyone. That wasn't my question.
30:40
It's a lie. See, everybody lies, right?
30:42
Yeah, it's a lie. So would a, would a client put
30:48
their case across in a particular way to make it look
30:50
like we need to do what we need to do?
30:53
Yes, but what? But the skill is the
30:56
investigator. The skill is the investigator in
30:59
understanding the client requirement, going through the
31:03
questioning, let's say the onboarding and getting to the
31:06
truth that that's, that's what a skilled investigator will do and
31:10
then providing the solution. But we, we have, you know, every
31:13
week we have numerous crazy type enquiries that want to do all
31:18
sorts of weird and wonderful things.
31:20
And through the that process you end up understanding your
31:24
position with a client. I just, I just love what you do.
31:26
I love that you because you know, there's this whole thing
31:29
about my truth much I actually really despise that term.
31:33
What does my truth mean? There is the truth.
31:36
Then there's how you frame it. Then there's how someone else
31:38
frames their points of views, opinions.
31:40
Some people have terrible memories.
31:41
Some people are so obsessed with their points of view that they
31:43
become skewed. They really believe their own
31:46
truth and I'm going to call it lie.
31:47
So there's all of that mess up. But actually, when you
31:49
investigate calmly and neutrally and sensibly, you uncover the
31:54
truth. Exactly.
31:56
Well, the other thing an investigator does is report
31:58
fact. So we get this is fact, it's
32:02
evidence and we're backed with evidence.
32:04
You can't just put together a package of hearsay.
32:07
It's going to get thrown out. So you know, we we get the fact.
32:10
So how can you get away from now there could be circumstantial
32:14
evidence, There could be, but you have to list that.
32:17
You don't put that as a fact because you can't back it up
32:21
with documented primary source evidence.
32:24
Yes, and you know what else I feel like when with a fact thing
32:28
that what people do, what they actually do, that's a fact.
32:33
You know what what they've done their record, whether it's
32:36
online record, whatever it is, that is a fact that isn't you
32:39
can't dispute that you did that. That is what happened.
32:42
You know, whether you're a country, whether you're
32:44
whatever, either you did something and when people show
32:46
you who they are through their actions or companies or even
32:51
entire governments, you've got to pay attention to that and
32:54
take it as facts, right? The other thing though, just to
32:57
throw something completely different is this whole thing
32:59
called misinformation. So it's spreading third party
33:03
misinformation lies. So but with a narrative
33:07
misinformation with a narrative in the wrong hands can be really
33:09
dangerous because it's pursuing to say that that information is
33:13
true when it isn't. Yes, and, and and on the back of
33:16
this narrative campaign, for example, can create first and
33:22
second phase people around that to believe this narrative that
33:26
doesn't exist and that's. Extremely dangerous.
33:28
And that's why I'm moving away from what people say and then
33:31
narratives and misinformation and their headlines.
33:34
And it's like, what have you actually shown to be true?
33:37
Like what action have you done? Even as a country, it doesn't
33:41
matter what you say and what you try and paint.
33:44
It's like, what have you actually done?
33:45
What are you? What's your credentials?
33:46
And it's like a CV Hopefully it's like, what have you done
33:51
step by step? Yeah, exactly right.
33:53
And we deal with that. You deal with that.
33:54
Well, we try and peel the layers and try and get to the raw data.
33:58
I love that. I love facts and data.
34:03
So has someone ever confronted you or your team?
34:06
You know your your employees in in when investigating, have you
34:11
been caught out, let's say? Very, very rarely.
34:14
And it does happen. Any investigator that says it
34:16
doesn't happen is lying, but it does happen.
34:19
And I'll tell you why. Where the risk goes up,
34:22
generally when if there's two sides, there's always two sides
34:24
to an investigation. And if both sides have defenses
34:28
and investigators working and the information is being
34:32
disclosed at some point, let's say in a court case, there could
34:36
be the risk goes up in terms of the subject becomes aware.
34:41
Now there's an investigation going on, there's been documents
34:43
that have been served. There's there's a report that's
34:45
been exhibited, it becomes, yeah, it becomes that that's
34:48
where the risk goes up. But again, a skilled
34:50
investigator will take proportionate measures and and
34:53
do the right type of investigating during that
34:55
process. Cover their tracks.
34:57
Yeah. Have you ever or your team had
35:01
to pose as someone to get information?
35:05
Yeah, you can do and, and again, yes, you can.
35:10
It depends. If you're knocking on someone's
35:12
door and you need to find out some information, you're going
35:14
to say, hey, I'm an investigator, I need to ask.
35:16
People are going to close up. So it may be that you use what
35:19
we call a cover story to interact with an individual or a
35:24
third party. As long as you don't pretend to
35:26
be someone that's real. OK, yeah.
35:30
Then this is a real. Yeah.
35:31
Yeah. You're impersonating someone
35:33
official or something, an individual that you shouldn't.
35:37
Then you know, there's some laws against that.
35:39
But you know you you can be creative in your approaches.
35:43
OK. So this one is more again for
35:45
the private side of the individuals.
35:48
When you're investigating and someone asks you for help and
35:52
you're investigating another person, what is like obvious red
35:55
flag, suspicious behaviour that you might find in someone, let's
35:59
say if they cheating or if they, you know what, what sort of red
36:02
flags immediately jump out at you?
36:05
In terms of before what, what for the person to look out for
36:09
or when we're when we're following someone, yeah.
36:12
When we're investigating, when you're asked to investigate
36:13
someone, what are like red flags that someone's doing something
36:17
dodgy? Like is there something that you
36:20
quickly notice in maybe they covering up their tracks or some
36:24
sort of suspicious activity, immediate red flags that they're
36:27
not quite right or there's something a bit suspicious
36:30
about? Again, if we're looking at a
36:32
matrimonial situation and let's say the individual is in
36:35
communication with their partner whilst the investigation is
36:38
going on. So whilst the surveillance is
36:39
going on, you know the individual, and we've had this
36:43
quite regularly where the individual will communicate with
36:45
their their partners saying I'm leaving work now by, you know,
36:48
message when really they're not. So those white lies that someone
36:53
tells someone is a red flag because why would you do that?
36:58
Are you justifying or I'm just in this meeting with X when
37:03
you're not, you're at a different location.
37:05
Why would you? Yeah, why?
37:06
Are you hiding? Why are you creating again a
37:08
misinformation narrative to your partner or hiding something and
37:12
that for us would think that that's not quite right?
37:14
So misinformation is a massive red flag.
37:17
I think so, yeah. Because you're, you're you've no
37:19
reasons. When there's no reason to lie
37:21
and you lie, That for us is a concern.
37:24
There's always a reason. There's always a reason to lie.
37:27
Oh. Scary.
37:30
Do people often regret what they find, you know, when they ask
37:33
you and then the truth comes out?
37:35
Or is it a sort of a yes? What's the most common?
37:37
Yeah, that's a really good question.
37:39
And that ranges I've had. I've had clients that are
37:42
emotionally invested and connected to understanding
37:45
what's going on because what we find out is going to change the
37:48
direction of their path. Gosh, fundamentally change
37:52
course, Yeah. And not just for them, it could
37:54
be third parties involved, they could be children, other family
37:56
members, that situation. They could be there's a whole
37:59
list of so we're in that we're at the sharp end.
38:01
We're we're there uncovering exactly what's going on and
38:04
reporting back the fact. And we when we report, we can't
38:07
hold back. We can't say, well, he didn't
38:09
touch her there or we didn't see them kiss or we they didn't.
38:13
We have to be straight up front. And this is what's happened.
38:16
And here's the proof. So I want to say he could be she
38:20
right. So so we're clear.
38:22
But so do clients say, yeah, some are their gut instinct and
38:32
they they were right with their gut.
38:34
And, and I suppose they they are, maybe I don't have the word
38:37
happy, but maybe satisfied that they're.
38:40
That they were right. That they were right.
38:41
The suspicions. Were right yeah OK so so just
38:46
let's let's remain we're we're on the cheating topic so let's
38:49
just stay here. So probably a lot I I suspect a
38:52
lot of the private individuals that come to you want to know is
38:57
my partner, you know husband wife whatever it is cheating.
39:02
Is that like a common thing? Are a lot of people coming to
39:05
you with that? Yeah.
39:08
I mean, yes, it when you say is it common in the private sector,
39:12
in the private sector, yeah, that it's usually a breach of
39:14
trust. So you know, is this person that
39:17
I trust doing something I suspect they are OK, yes or no?
39:20
So if you feel like suspicious, like are you know, are they
39:23
doing something like what do you then do to investigate if they
39:28
are in fact cheating without showing all your cards?
39:31
So before someone comes to us and, and has the, you know, sort
39:36
of motivation to instruct an investigator, something must
39:39
have happened. And more than once, someone
39:41
doesn't wake up one day and go, yeah, let me follow my partner
39:44
for a bit. No, you know, there's, there's,
39:46
there's all these identifiers. Something doesn't add up.
39:48
I've got a gut instinct. There's a emotional issue.
39:51
There's something's gone on and then they come to us and then
39:54
during that onboarding Phase, I need to understand a little bit
39:57
about the routine the and we are some pretty straight questions
40:01
just to uncover how we're going to best support.
40:04
You have to yeah, what you're trying to.
40:06
Yeah, you have to dig and then, and then we will do what we do.
40:08
You know, usually there's a suspicion.
40:10
I believe it's someone from this circle, this club, Sports Club.
40:15
They can't know. Who it might be?
40:16
Work staff person they've. Seen something on Instagram or?
40:19
Whatever, this person's always liking his post, you know why
40:21
we're at. Work.
40:22
It's normally at work or. Yeah, why?
40:24
Why? Spending time together.
40:25
Exactly. Or going out for work drinks.
40:27
What again? I tell you you're a useful
40:28
contact to have just in case. I've just.
40:33
Yeah, I told, I told my husband on the way here.
40:34
I was like I got my. Watch yourself.
40:37
There's trips abroad. That's the other one.
40:40
You'll never know if I'm watching you.
40:44
That's the emotion of black. But it's good, you know, I mean,
40:48
so people can use those services if they suspect something.
40:51
But then you could also have the other side, which is what we've
40:53
also touched on, the very controlling, paranoid person who
40:56
just wants to like, I want to know your every move just in
40:59
case because my pride couldn't handle it if you're dead.
41:01
She told me, oh, you might, you're too attractive.
41:03
You might do something or someone might try with you like
41:05
a paranoia. You know you must get a lot of
41:08
that too. Your behaviour when you're not
41:10
with me, you know that's. Yeah, what do you do when you're
41:13
not with me? Yeah, how do you conduct
41:15
yourself? The other the other ones that
41:18
we've had is pre and this is certainly going to sound a
41:20
little bit weird, but but not it's not weird, it's just
41:23
different premarital check. So generally it's in different
41:28
cultures overseas where someone is is of a of a certain standing
41:33
is going to marry someone She's him, he her, whatever.
41:40
And they just there's, there's a bit that's not quite right and
41:44
they just want to full check just to make sure the partner
41:47
I'm going to that's going to be introduced into my family is of
41:53
the right moral. Everything, everything.
41:58
Look, you know you should. You should know that if you're
42:00
going to marry someone anyway, you shouldn't go to a third
42:03
party profession. Give you gonna say that?
42:04
Yeah, an independent opinion, yeah, but some do some some want
42:08
that secondary there must maybe their.
42:10
Families do as well. It's like a condition and.
42:13
Like there's a bit of doubt. It's a difficult one that that
42:17
one because you kind of think, well, I would think if I found
42:19
out, for example, that someone's, I would call it
42:22
spying in that way because why didn't you ask me what, you
42:24
don't trust me? And then it's like, that's a red
42:26
flag. Well, you're paranoid because
42:27
you can't even get into a relationship normally and you've
42:31
got to start doing all this stuff.
42:33
Now, this is usually when they're in a relationship and
42:36
they're about to marry. So there's the next big, massive
42:38
step. There's a commitment here
42:40
generally linked to, you know, being part of a family.
42:43
There's assets. Exactly right.
42:45
It's money, all right. We're going to move.
42:47
We're going to move into, into corporate.
42:49
So it can, I mean, we, we spoke about it.
42:52
Companies do vet high profile employees.
42:56
They, they do, they're going to hire someone, give them a
42:58
massive salary. They're going to check who they
43:00
are and that that's common and normal.
43:03
Do they have to tell them, by the way, as part of the
43:05
recruitment process? We're going to thoroughly check
43:08
you. So most companies do pre
43:10
employment screening and it's consented.
43:12
So the employee, it's fully especially if they're in any
43:15
professional services like finance, banking, law.
43:19
Politics. Politics.
43:21
Yeah, yeah, yeah. OK, so they do a lot of.
43:24
So you you would have, and I would recommend anyone, any
43:29
company out there that's employing staff and and these
43:33
can be quite cost effective to conduct a get a get a
43:37
professional in to do the red flag check the last thing you
43:39
need, right. Especially if you're if you're
43:41
open and you're dealing with, I don't know, you've got
43:44
everyone's got a reputation and you take on the wrong someone
43:48
with a checkered past that you didn't know about.
43:50
Yeah, and a clever journalist find something somewhere from
43:54
wherever and puts it in. How damaging is that to your
43:57
brand? Extremely damaging.
43:58
But if you knew from the beginning, you can take.
44:00
Steps you think that they always finding things on these people
44:03
and then these big corporations and some of their employees.
44:06
You know, you know that. White lies.
44:08
White lies on the CV. There's that.
44:09
That white. Lies on the CV, but then they
44:11
also met. Let's say they pass this to the
44:12
CV is OK because they've done the incredible things, but then
44:15
they they just do sinister things outside of work.
44:18
Again, it needs to be proportionate.
44:20
So we do a thing called which is, which is quite a relatively
44:25
new tool called social media check, right?
44:27
And what it does is with consent, it will screen.
44:31
And I, I, I, I recommend everyone does this on
44:33
themselves, right? It's screaming scream myself
44:37
screen no, because movements change over periods of time.
44:41
So it will screen all of your posts, all of your tweets, all
44:44
of your likes, all of your comments to see whether there's
44:46
any defamatory, politically, maybe incorrect, you know, you
44:50
may have. Check I need it.
44:51
Thank you. You may have liked something.
44:54
By accident. By accident, 10 years.
44:55
No, no, you may like something by accident 10 years ago that
44:58
now is like, oh, you, we can't talk about that now.
45:00
We we can't talk, you know, because of whatever can.
45:02
You undo it. Yes, and what this does, it's
45:05
with consent. It goes through, it gives you a
45:06
whole report. I mean, we've done all of our
45:07
stuff and there was some interesting.
45:09
We found things. Yeah, so we found some
45:11
profanities, right. So swear words and and, and I
45:15
spoke to one of the chaps and I was like, wow, that's quite a
45:17
lot on there. And what it was is.
45:20
And we found some it was like, not it was what was it termed
45:25
hate type speech, Right? Yeah.
45:28
And when it when looked at it, it was Ricky.
45:31
Ricky Gervais is quite an animal, right?
45:32
Yes, that's right. He loves animals, yes, and there
45:36
was some of his posts had swear words in there against.
45:39
They were like, yeah. Activists and whatever else.
45:41
And those posts were liked. So this, this tool flagged all
45:44
of those up. So, so which is good, right?
45:47
So if you're going for a, if you're in the employment market
45:50
and you're looking for a new job, I'll definitely screen
45:52
because your employer's going to screen you.
45:53
So you you may as well screen yourself just to make sure
45:56
you're clean and if if you're not clean.
45:57
It's like a credit check, but different on another level.
46:00
This is a fascinating thing. OK, everyone's got to do this
46:03
social. Media check.
46:04
Social media check and just check your footprint and don't
46:07
do anything crazy in the 1st place.
46:09
I was going to ask you about certain industries that are more
46:13
likely to do this investigative work, but I think it's pretty
46:15
clear. I think you know, the high
46:16
profile individuals, the the high profile decision makers,
46:20
that sort of thing, probably not.
46:21
Your regular employer is not going to really care to that
46:23
extent. What with the pre employment?
46:25
Yeah, with just general checking up on you.
46:27
Just general background even even even anyone who's employing
46:33
anyone because the pre employment check is is
46:35
relatively cheap quick process to do so even anyone who's
46:38
employing anyone should have that as their onboarding.
46:40
You need to check who's working for.
46:42
You so this isn't a sort of crossing the line grey area.
46:44
This is like a recommended like you are.
46:47
Yes, there's your CV and then there's like you're saying,
46:50
there's all the stuff that you'd be doing online.
46:51
We need to know what you're doing online.
46:54
The online is optional, I would say, depending on the industry
46:58
you're in, right. You know, you don't need to go
46:59
that deep, but anything in terms of checking the person's got the
47:03
right to work in the UK has you know, yeah, you would need to do
47:07
it. And again, those those pre
47:09
employment checks are proportionate and scale up to
47:11
depending on what type of industry you're in.
47:13
Depending on what you're doing, yeah.
47:15
OK. Because it's like the politics
47:17
side and the business side, those two collide and that's
47:20
just a ginormous requirement. I.
47:22
Mean those are, you know, very senior people in the public eye
47:25
so that you know there's their whole careers are scrutinized
47:29
every. Single thing.
47:30
Word, you know, they have communication teams, media
47:33
teams, advisory teams, strategic teams.
47:35
You know, there's it's, it's not them as a one individual.
47:38
There's a whole team that support.
47:41
Yeah, they've got PR teams, of course.
47:44
They do. But then on the other side of
47:45
that, you've got other teams, individuals and whatever else,
47:48
even members of the public looking at every tiny little
47:51
thing that anyone in the public domain or in the public eye,
47:54
sorry, does and has an open platform, a free open platform,
47:59
social media channels to post, tweet, comment, describe what
48:03
they've seen. So you could say you saw a
48:06
politician say X on television and you would, we could do, do
48:10
it now. You could go onto your social
48:12
media account and say, I just saw he said that.
48:14
What do you guys think this was? You know, and you can create a
48:17
narrative or a movement on something that you've just seen
48:20
on online on television. So it's a really, really weird
48:24
world we live in now. Yeah.
48:27
I mean, I think private individuals don't really, well,
48:32
even even me just thinking about it, we don't really give
48:35
ourselves enough protection in that way to do our own screening
48:40
and to just, you know, because because like you're saying,
48:42
these big presidents and politicians, whoever, these
48:46
guys, big corporates, they've got teams that look out for
48:49
them, that tell them what to say, how to say it, you know,
48:51
that protect them if something does go wrong.
48:53
Reputation management. It's like an entire office if
48:56
office buildings and people just working to protect their
48:58
reputation, correct online and offline, helping them, guiding
49:02
them, what you should say, what you shouldn't say, how you
49:04
should behave, sit, talk, everything.
49:05
And then you've got everyone else is kind of left.
49:07
It's almost like naked and you've got to cope and know how
49:11
to survive. And but with these platforms
49:14
that can also come in and, you know, scrutinize you, attack
49:18
you, you know, and also being on reality TV, you know, once you
49:23
get a platform, then already you're in that realm, but you
49:27
might not have the protection complete skills or whatever it
49:31
is, it's quite rough. Yeah, you do what you think's
49:33
right. But then in defence to that,
49:38
usually what's happening now is today's news is is not relevant
49:42
tomorrow because there's something else and there's
49:44
something else and there's so much out there.
49:45
So unless you're being targeted so that.
49:49
Unless you're being targeted. Unless.
49:50
You're being targeted by a group who will continue to push a
49:53
narrative. So, and this is what happens at
49:55
the top end. Look at what's going on
49:57
globally, you know. So I think for the individual,
50:01
whilst there isn't that much protection in place and it is a
50:03
little bit of self learning because you can, you know, I
50:06
think you as you evolve in the public eye from the ground up,
50:10
you will make mistakes and you learn the hard way, right?
50:13
You do, you do so, and it takes a certain type of individual to
50:19
absorb what's going on and either let it filter through to
50:23
you or not or block, you know, just distance yourself from it.
50:26
But if that's the decision and journey you're taking, you need
50:29
to be aware of the risks. Yeah, yeah.
50:32
And and that definitely there are definitely risk and there's
50:36
also massive benefits. So yes, we spoke about
50:40
suppressing damaging information.
50:43
I mean, if you want to find out if someone's sort of like spying
50:46
on you, whatever, you can hire someone to check, like someone
50:49
doing that but also suppressing information.
50:51
So have you been asked to sort of, they don't really
50:54
investigate here, but just don't let this thing come out about me
50:57
or my company or whatever. That's more you've been done to
51:00
do. That that's more PR, that's more
51:02
PR strategy and pushing say comments that have been posted
51:07
out there, you know, down the line in Google that's we're,
51:11
we're investigators, we, we uncover, we don't.
51:14
So you would uncover, let's say that because let's just say a
51:16
company, something's happened and your client wants to, they
51:22
will have the PR team to obviously damage control, let's
51:24
say that does come out. But really we don't want it to
51:27
come out. So we want to investigate what's
51:29
going on there on this particular subject.
51:31
Is it coming out, who spoke, who said what, who's released
51:36
documents, anything like that? Yeah, we've worked with PR teams
51:39
before. So there there could be a
51:41
something about to break or there's been an issue or there's
51:44
been a, there's a leak. It's uncovering the leak.
51:46
And who's the internal insider threat, which is the mole.
51:50
Who's the mole, right, Yeah. Who's the insider threat?
51:52
And there are a few ways to tackle that.
51:53
OK. So how would you tackle it?
51:55
I knew you were going to ask. Yeah, go on.
51:57
So how did? You find the mole.
51:58
So there usually is some type of intelligence or lead that we
52:03
need to go through from and it's usually what what type of
52:07
information is coming out? Where's it being leaked?
52:09
So they we may need to check the internal systems.
52:11
They could be emails or communications between what's
52:15
going on in that particular office and someone externally.
52:18
They could be a disgruntled employee that's left that's
52:21
recently, but still very good friends with someone that works
52:25
for the office and there's some sharing of data or that or, or
52:29
or a narrative that I don't know, was started and then
52:33
stopped there. There's usually some pinch
52:35
points that we would look at as leads.
52:38
That gives us something. If there isn't, which generally
52:42
there is. But if there isn't, then we
52:44
would look at what type of narratives coming out.
52:46
What is it, you know, is there emails being sent to someone or
52:49
you know who? What journalist has received
52:52
this breaking story and how? And then the journalist usually
52:57
would ask the client to say, right, we've received this, can
53:00
you comment on X? And there, that's where their PR
53:02
team would speak to the client and advise them on how to
53:06
respond to a journalist. We would, if possible, ask for
53:10
the request of what they've been sent and seeing whether we could
53:13
find any information there that can try and connect the dots
53:16
backwards. But yeah, so connecting dots
53:20
there. Because I just thought back to a
53:22
story actually that my husband told me about this is way before
53:26
he met me, but about an obsessive women that because in
53:33
those days used to be a bit of a, you know, go out lad,
53:36
whatever, which is fairly. You're a young man, you know,
53:38
you, you're not married. You can, you know, just live
53:41
your life, please get it off your system.
53:44
And, you know, and and he met this this woman who became
53:47
obsessive about him. And initially it was quite nice.
53:50
All you're obsessed with me. Give me all this like attention.
53:53
But then it's a bit like, OK, just, you know, and and he tried
53:57
to go off and, and live his life and meet someone else.
53:59
And obviously she wasn't having any of it.
54:02
So she would do things like the sort of the red flag symbols are
54:05
already there. Like she would plant a hair of
54:09
hers, you know, on a bed sheet in case and someone else might
54:13
go in one day. And it started with those red
54:15
flags, you know, in case another woman came in and go, oh, whose
54:17
hair is that? What this is, you know,
54:19
brunette's hair and I'm blonde, whatever, you know, those sort
54:21
of things. It's like so obvious, but she
54:24
would start doing it, but then it went on to more serious
54:26
things. Then there was things like
54:28
sending an e-mail, you know, to, to to several people within the
54:32
company saying, oh, he did this and he's like that.
54:35
And then but like, you know, you know, stepping it up.
54:37
So you've got those sort of things, which again, private
54:40
individuals have to to deal with.
54:42
And of course politicians deal with on to the highest level,
54:45
but it's the same thing. It's basically the same thing.
54:48
It's people trying to plant dirt on you or ruin your reputation
54:52
or whatever, in which case it would be beneficial.
54:55
I mean, you wouldn't hire necessarily a private
54:57
international investigator Pi to deal with that, but.
55:02
You'd be surprised. To it would be nice to.
55:03
You'd be surprised. Sinister like that.
55:05
Yeah, we've, we've done several cases like.
55:07
That all right, OK. Where that is borderline
55:11
harassment totally and it depends on exactly that.
55:15
So we would document what's out there and there's there are
55:18
legal remedies for that. There are there is a legal cease
55:21
and desist because that's you're breaking the law there.
55:23
So if you continue to harass, spread misinformation,
55:27
communicate with third parties, damage someone's reputation,
55:30
defamation, there's. Jealousy.
55:32
Yeah. For whatever reason, it could be
55:33
jealousy, it could be that she, she can't move on.
55:36
She she she predicted this life with your husband years ago.
55:40
Immature, well, whatever you want to call it, you know, just
55:43
inability to take like it's no, it's a no.
55:45
I mean, get a cat. Cats will teach you about
55:47
rejection. Right there you go, it's OK, but
55:50
but maybe someone like that went once it goes from this keyboard
55:54
warrior scenario to a legal letter, you've ceased and desist
55:57
further communication or XYZ is going to happen.
56:00
It sometimes is a wake up call. So you know what?
56:01
I really didn't realise that I was doing what I was doing.
56:04
I've got to step away. Or if they're completely, you
56:07
know, out there and crazy and want to pursue this, then you go
56:11
line by line with what what options are available to get
56:15
this individual to stop. OK, talk about consequences,
56:20
consequences of, of actions. So has has there ever been a
56:23
case that made you rethink, you know, your career, that made you
56:28
think about ethics, that that sort of touched you on that
56:32
level where you've been encountered with something
56:35
that's made you go? Anything to do with children, to
56:41
be honest with you. And I'm talking about either
56:44
locating one that's been abducted legally.
56:47
When I say no, it's not. Legally, yeah, no, but.
56:50
Yeah, but and it's usually. Literally abducted, Yeah.
56:52
Taken usually in family situations where you have, I
56:55
don't know, one the, the, the relationship's broken down and
57:02
one is from a different jurisdiction and one is from a
57:04
different jurisdiction and one wants to take the kids and
57:07
there's a legal dispute and battle.
57:08
And one just says we're off and we're, we're going to wherever
57:12
and you'll never going to find me.
57:13
And that's it. It's done so there.
57:17
And that's there's an issue in court going on and there's,
57:20
you're dealing with maybe jurisdictions that are not as
57:23
westernised in terms of legal processes and you've got one
57:26
parent with custody. Legally, that's not being Those
57:30
are tough cases. Horrible.
57:31
And then you've got the little person of.
57:33
Course you have so those cases. And you're a dad, and that's
57:36
horrible. Anything like that is can be
57:39
quite challenging in terms of we've got to do the right thing.
57:43
The right thing for the. Right reasons under the right
57:46
circumstances. And the right thing is, the
57:47
right right thing for one person is not the right thing for the
57:50
other. Completely.
57:50
And we are, we're not the, we're not the decision maker, right?
57:54
We are, we are there to provide the information to maybe the
58:00
legal teams or the courts to say, well, look, that's this is
58:02
actually where they are. And now we'll deal with local
58:04
authorities to try and recover and whatever else.
58:07
So anything like that and anything where the let's say
58:14
there's a a bit, I mean, I've spoken about it.
58:17
I, I worked on a case God, man must have been about 10 years
58:21
ago where the family were from Canada and the daughter was 18.
58:27
She met a boy online through one of these platforms, who knows,
58:31
and they started to communicate. He was in the UK.
58:36
She'd never been outside Canada. She wasn't in any education, she
58:42
was at a loose end, an 18 year old and living her life and
58:45
whatever else. Family were not super wealthy
58:47
but they were OK. They were doing well, mum and
58:49
dad, lovely people. She just booked a plane ticket
58:53
he said he booked he wanted to see her.
58:54
They had this online relationship for about 6 months
58:57
where they would just chat via a platform which is not around
59:01
anymore. This was just as WhatsApp
59:04
launched and she ended up deciding to come to the UK by
59:09
herself, never travelled alone. And when she got to the UK, she
59:15
she said to her dad, it's OK, he's booked me in a hotel.
59:18
Here's the hotel booking. She came to the UK, her phone
59:22
wouldn't work in the UK, right? So the mom and dad couldn't
59:25
contact her. They had no communication.
59:27
They came to us. They were really worried, yes,
59:31
she's 18, so she's got the right, she's an adult, she's got
59:33
the right to her own privacy. So I thought I'll tell you what
59:37
we'll do to the mum and dad. Let me just send a couple of
59:42
investigators to sniff around the hotel just to make sure
59:44
she's checked in and safe and like an alive and well check got
59:47
to the hotel and the booking was cancelled and she no sign of
59:52
her, no sign of her. She didn't check in.
59:53
So you could imagine now. OK, Yeah.
59:55
What's going on? Right.
59:57
As a parent, I would be losing my mind.
59:59
OK, right. You're on a flight to London
1:00:01
right from. Canada immediately.
1:00:03
Immediately. So, but where'd you go, right?
1:00:05
No idea where she is. Her phone wasn't working because
1:00:08
it's an international phone and back then and all of the sort of
1:00:11
basic things that we take for granted, the mum and dad, I, I
1:00:15
long conversations with both of them to understand because I
1:00:18
needed to understand what happened before.
1:00:21
And you know, there was that teenage breakdown chat, you
1:00:25
know, that we've got teenagers, we've all been through there,
1:00:29
although minor, past teenagers except for one, but that they
1:00:33
had that she was rebelling a little bit and she wanted to be
1:00:36
her own person and dependent. And I, I know what I'm doing and
1:00:40
I don't. And she just got up and left and
1:00:42
she met this guy and he said all the right things and any.
1:00:45
So we, we, we actually mounted a, a full on investigation to
1:00:48
try and we'll award for her safety then, right because.
1:00:50
She's disappeared. She's disappeared.
1:00:52
So we had the authorities involved.
1:00:55
Gosh. And in the end, we, we, we
1:00:58
tracked the guy because he cancelled.
1:01:00
He made the booking and then cancelled it.
1:01:02
And through the booking that he made, the hotel were quite
1:01:04
helpful because we were like, look, it's an 18 year old from a
1:01:06
different country. There's da da, da da.
1:01:08
Anyway, so we ended up connecting some and found that
1:01:13
he was part of this, what you call them like movement of like
1:01:20
not is it an anarchist? They're in this disused flat or
1:01:25
with all sort of graffiti sprayed on the wall.
1:01:27
Just like, you know, I don't have to.
1:01:30
It's like a group. It's not a gang.
1:01:32
It was like a group of three spirits three, Yeah.
1:01:38
And she got, yeah, got mixed up in that in a squatting type
1:01:43
facility. Yeah, not good.
1:01:45
We found all of that. We've got the the authorities
1:01:48
involved and told the father, I mean, he was like, you know, I
1:01:53
can't believe you found her. She OK, So yes, she's fine.
1:01:56
We've got her brilliant. Can you get anyway, So in the
1:02:01
end we got her repatriated back. She she was actually happy to go
1:02:06
home because she got involved in this situation far too deep.
1:02:09
Yes, yes. And didn't see her way out.
1:02:11
She got it. She was like, this wasn't what I
1:02:12
was promised, but where am I going to go now?
1:02:14
There's all drinks and it wasn't.
1:02:16
Involved. Yeah, Speaking to her parents.
1:02:18
Exactly. So there was a breakdown.
1:02:19
She tried to be this independent.
1:02:21
So we went for a whole emotion. You talked about emotion.
1:02:23
That's a whole. Emotion.
1:02:24
Very emotion. And then about.
1:02:25
I don't know, six months later the dad sent me a picture of
1:02:28
their family all together. So nice, but.
1:02:30
Saved her life potentially, because who knows what she's
1:02:32
doing in that hippie. Well, luckily.
1:02:34
Well, that's the month. I think it's the mother and
1:02:36
father that saved her Life. OK, because they took action and
1:02:38
yes, contacted. Us.
1:02:40
Oh, it's trying to. Do so. 100%.
1:02:42
What you know, they went to the police, they went to the
1:02:44
Canadian police, they've done all that they did locally, but
1:02:46
then they'd come in at loose end.
1:02:48
So anyway. Mike is Mike and Conflict
1:02:52
International team useful, useful contact if you ever land
1:02:56
up in hot water like that. But obviously it must have a
1:02:59
mental toll on yourself. You know you're a dad, so how do
1:03:02
you handle that? How does your team handle it?
1:03:04
How do you tell them to sort of separate work from?
1:03:07
This really tough sometimes and it depends on what people are
1:03:10
going through. But you know, you say we're all
1:03:11
human and you know, you try and block out what's going on
1:03:16
through someone's world, however you, you are, they're confident
1:03:22
at their most low time. So for me, that's why my phone,
1:03:25
my job isn't 9:00 to 5:00 Monday to Friday.
1:03:26
I answer my phone all the time. I mean, it rang 3:00 in the
1:03:29
morning last night. I was like, and it's a client
1:03:31
because I put, I put the alerts on for clients and family only.
1:03:35
So anyone else that calls it goes to a thing.
1:03:36
I'll see your clients on the level of your family.
1:03:38
If I've got a live case, then yeah, yeah, yeah.
1:03:41
Because then, and you know, it's incredible, they're going
1:03:43
through stuff that they've probably not discussed with the
1:03:46
people closest. To them.
1:03:48
Yeah, and you know, you know that information about their
1:03:50
personal life that no one else probably knows in their circle,
1:03:54
so. I mean, I mean seriously, do you
1:03:55
like do yoga? Like, what do you do to like,
1:03:58
what do you, what do I do? I do.
1:03:59
Triathlons. I run.
1:04:00
I swim and I run. Yeah, I run and bike.
1:04:02
Yeah, that's There you go. That's what I do.
1:04:04
Sweat out there, you sweat it out.
1:04:06
Punish myself. Punish yourself, that's the only
1:04:08
way you've got to do that because otherwise you go crazy.
1:04:10
Exactly. You will literally get too
1:04:12
absorbed, especially if they're calling you at 3:00.
1:04:15
But have you ever had to walk away from a case?
1:04:19
There, there can be occasions that you do, you know,
1:04:22
especially when a client has, you know, is doing it for the
1:04:26
wrong reasons. And we've, we've done what we
1:04:28
needed to do and there is nothing more we can do.
1:04:31
Yeah, we can't. We, I've, I've turned stuff
1:04:33
down. You have to.
1:04:35
Give us an example if you can. Well, when you've got someone
1:04:38
who's where, you know their motive isn't necessarily what
1:04:41
they first initially wanted it to be, or you've closed the case
1:04:46
and they want to continue. More, more, more.
1:04:49
For the wrong reasons, destroying someone because we've
1:04:52
won. But you've there's, there's,
1:04:54
there's winning and closing and then there's inappropriate
1:04:58
continuation. Yes.
1:04:59
So you know, you've got you've got to know as an investigator,
1:05:02
that's the judgement at the beginning.
1:05:04
You've got to know what you're doing it for and why and when.
1:05:06
So you walk away from that. Yeah, Because remember I said
1:05:08
we'll come back to the addictions.
1:05:09
I've got a question here. What is it?
1:05:12
What does it look like when someone becomes too addicted to
1:05:14
this whole surveillance thing? And it it must be an, an
1:05:17
obsession, an addiction with some, or you could get hooked.
1:05:20
It's almost like now that you know, you want to know more, you
1:05:23
can use it now on that person or on that person.
1:05:26
So that's also something that you must be dealing with a lot
1:05:29
to try and manage. Yeah.
1:05:31
Again. So that's why you need to
1:05:33
onboard someone properly in the 1st place and you're doing the
1:05:35
the case in the investigation for a reason.
1:05:38
And once that reason has been identified and reported on, that
1:05:43
case is closed, unless there's something else that's happened.
1:05:45
You can't continue it because that's stalking harassment.
1:05:48
Can't just follow someone forever for your pleasure, for
1:05:51
your voyeurism. Pleasure to but.
1:05:53
There must be clients that want to right?
1:05:55
Of course there are especially those.
1:05:57
They've got the money to throw at it as.
1:05:58
Well, with the resources, they want to monitor whoever they're
1:06:00
monitoring forever. You've got to have morals, you
1:06:03
know, ethics of, of steel. You do the job you do.
1:06:06
Every investigator has this moral compass and during the
1:06:09
case, it does this all the time because yeah.
1:06:12
And, and you, you manage that, that that's, that's part of
1:06:15
being skilled and experienced as an investigator to keep that.
1:06:19
Where do you get your your values, your ethics from?
1:06:21
Do you have religion? Are you religious?
1:06:24
Do you, are you spiritual? Like what keeps you AM?
1:06:28
I religious, I, I, I suppose I am religious, you know, I, I
1:06:33
come from, I mean, where, where are we going with this?
1:06:37
This is like just so. Wherever you want.
1:06:41
We. Have no boundaries in this.
1:06:43
Podcast, I think it's. A straight up question.
1:06:45
Yeah, yeah. No, no, I get it.
1:06:46
I, I affiliate myself with some of the biggest leaders in the
1:06:52
industry and some of the mentors before me.
1:06:54
So I, I, I give back. I'm out there in the open.
1:06:57
So there's no, you know, so my moral compass is there, my
1:06:59
reputation is there. So it's there to be looked and
1:07:02
challenged. So I every, whatever you do on a
1:07:05
daily basis, regardless of whether it's speaking to a
1:07:08
client, your interactions here online is, is you're going to be
1:07:14
judged. And for me, I, I, I keep my
1:07:16
moral compass extremely focused, yeah, clean and focused on, on
1:07:21
what I'm trying to do. I love this industry and I give
1:07:24
back. So that's why I sit on non
1:07:26
profit association boards to give back to the industry.
1:07:30
You know you. Really need to have it in line
1:07:33
and straight because the temptations that come from all
1:07:37
of the money and the types of clients that you, you, I know
1:07:41
that you're dealing with the temptation.
1:07:44
You really cannot be weak morally.
1:07:46
You can't be one of those people that gets like a little feather
1:07:50
being blown around by the the fad, the the money, the
1:07:53
pressure, whatever. The other thing I've found is
1:07:56
with powerful clients is if you stand up and provide the right
1:08:04
support for the right reasons and justify your position, you
1:08:07
earn a lot more respect. And that's my in my experience.
1:08:10
If you are, if you just say yes, can you do it?
1:08:12
Yes, you're you're, you're not being you're not challenging
1:08:16
your client in terms of providing them the optimum
1:08:19
result. You're.
1:08:21
Helping them by allowing them that dark rabbit hole.
1:08:23
Just do that. Yeah, yeah.
1:08:25
Off you go. Do.
1:08:25
Surveillance. I've told you to do that.
1:08:27
You just do that yeah. You end up you you you're not a
1:08:29
effective solution provider. You've just become another tool
1:08:34
in their arsenal. So if you want to provide and an
1:08:37
effective solution, that's why I'm, I'm very, I want to speak
1:08:41
to the ultimate client. I need.
1:08:43
I don't, I'd rather speak to the main decision maker rather than
1:08:46
aids advisors, support staff, because this happens the Chinese
1:08:50
whisper by the time it gets back to the client, just tell them to
1:08:52
do that. And then I'd rather just give me
1:08:56
5 minutes and and and we've we'll clear this all up.
1:08:59
Yeah, just stepping into this one more, it's if you look at
1:09:06
your sort of baseline values and ethics that you've got, did you
1:09:10
get them from your parents? Did you get them?
1:09:14
Like how did you build your core values?
1:09:18
So I'm from my father's Italian, my mother's Spanish.
1:09:21
So I'm from a Mediterranean background and, and family was
1:09:25
very important to us growing up. And for me, everything that was
1:09:33
taught to me at a young age is nothing's given to you.
1:09:36
You've got to go out there and work, work for it and how you
1:09:39
work for it is up to you. And all those steps from a young
1:09:44
age, being from parents that were from different countries
1:09:47
coming to the UK with, with no infrastructure, it was, you
1:09:50
know, you had to fight for your reputation and your position and
1:09:54
and those that hard working ethic, ethical mentality back
1:09:59
then had just been drilled into me from a young age.
1:10:02
Fighting for your for your clients now?
1:10:05
Yeah, still fighting. Yeah, I still fight.
1:10:06
Fight for my clients, yeah. And were your parents strict
1:10:09
with you? Yeah, yeah, my dad was strict.
1:10:13
Yeah, yeah, I've got to say was from a Sicilian man.
1:10:17
So, you know, not much. Because I can tell that a little
1:10:20
bit. We're speaking with you because,
1:10:22
and I like that there's a no nonsense approach where there's
1:10:28
truth, there's fact. There's no room for wishy washy
1:10:33
anything. And like I say, you're the right
1:10:37
person for this kind of industry because you've got to be solid
1:10:40
in that way. If there's any weakness and
1:10:42
cracks in your values, in your ethics, in the strictness of
1:10:46
what you need to do to deliver for your clients, to work hard
1:10:50
for your clients so that they have the best for them, which is
1:10:53
what your parents are still in you.
1:10:54
If that's not correct, everything crumbles.
1:10:57
Yeah, Yeah, that's right. Yeah.
1:11:00
Mike, it's been terrific. Having you thank.
1:11:03
You so much. Thank you.
1:11:04
Really enjoyed it. Thank you.