Latest / Beheaded / The Witch and the Sow | Elizabeth Sawyer

Transcript

The Witch and the Sow | Elizabeth Sawyer · Beheaded

0:04
SPEAKER_04: Hello and welcome to Beheaded.
0:06
SPEAKER_04: This is season four, episode 11.
0:08
SPEAKER_04: I'm Megan Moore, and I'm Elizabeth Black.
0:11
SPEAKER_02: Elizabeth, you're wearing a very cute Disneyland shirt today.
0:15
SPEAKER_02: Thank you.
0:15
SPEAKER_02: It's a black Disneyland spirit jersey.
0:18
SPEAKER_05: Very simple, literally just all black with white letters.
0:21
SPEAKER_05: Big Disney D in the front.
0:24
SPEAKER_05: I like that.
0:25
SPEAKER_05: Established in 1955.
0:26
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's very classic.
0:28
SPEAKER_05: It's very cozy.
0:29
SPEAKER_05: It's only$55.
0:32
SPEAKER_05: Which is a deal at Disneyland.
0:34
SPEAKER_05: Is this a new ad?
0:36
SPEAKER_05: Oh yeah.
0:36
SPEAKER_05: Starting off with our ads now.
0:38
SPEAKER_05: I wish Disney was sponsoring us.
0:40
SPEAKER_05: Not yet, guys.
0:41
SPEAKER_05: Thank you.
0:42
SPEAKER_05: I'm glad that you think this is the pinnacle of fashion.
0:45
SPEAKER_05: I came in and she's like, wow, look at you.
0:47
SPEAKER_02: I was like, it's a Disneyland screen.
0:48
SPEAKER_02: I really like it.
0:49
SPEAKER_02: I keep looking at it.
0:50
SPEAKER_02: I want one.
0:51
SPEAKER_02: It is nice.
0:52
SPEAKER_02: I do like Disney.
0:53
SPEAKER_04: Could you imagine if Disney was our sponsor?
0:55
SPEAKER_04: The dark, dark side of Disney.
0:57
SPEAKER_04: I would love that.
0:58
SPEAKER_05: They have a whole dark side, you know?
1:00
SPEAKER_05: We're like the villain sponsors, right?
1:03
SPEAKER_05: Who behead and talk about executions.
1:06
SPEAKER_05: You know, you call everyone fools and you say, off with the heads.
1:10
SPEAKER_04: There were some executions in Disney.
1:12
SPEAKER_04: There was a lot of murder.
1:13
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:14
SPEAKER_04: Alice in Wonderland.
1:15
SPEAKER_05: There's like a really funny, oh gosh, I don't know if it was like a Reddit thing or like there was something way back in the day, probably 10 years ago, of like, does anyone think about just like the bodies decaying after these incidents?
1:28
SPEAKER_05: Like the are you know, the happily, like right that happened right before happily ever after?
1:33
SPEAKER_05: Like, are Belle and the Beast just like wandering their gardens and they just like look down and the Oh like who leads up the battle scene?
1:39
SPEAKER_05: Like like they're they're just like in Gaston's bodies just at the bottom of this pit, and they're like, oh I never thought about that.
1:46
SPEAKER_04: What happens?
1:47
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, or like bodies.
1:49
SPEAKER_05: Um yeah, exactly.
1:50
SPEAKER_05: Or like Jane and Tarzan and that guy is just like you know, hanged by the vine.
1:55
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah, that was dark.
1:56
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
1:57
SPEAKER_04: The best execution scene, which was an unsuccessful execution in Disney.
2:02
SPEAKER_04: Uh-huh.
2:03
SPEAKER_04: Punchback in Notre Dame.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: Well, yeah.
2:05
SPEAKER_02: That's my favorite.
2:07
SPEAKER_02: But even Fro like Lord Frollo or whatever, like he just Frodo, he goes into the lava.
2:12
SPEAKER_02: There's always lava.
2:14
unknown: Isn't it?
2:14
SPEAKER_03: Oh, it's not Frodo, you're right.
2:15
SPEAKER_05: I think it's Frollo.
2:16
SPEAKER_05: It does sound like Frodo with their ex.
2:19
SPEAKER_05: But but yeah, he literally like falls off of the building into the fire, and it's like again, he's never to be seen from or like heard from again.
2:26
SPEAKER_05: If you just don't think about where their bodies go.
2:29
SPEAKER_04: Disney made me believe that lava was a much bigger issue than it actually is in my life.
2:34
SPEAKER_04: I think as kids we all thought lava would be a bigger threat to us.
2:39
SPEAKER_04: Did you play The Floor as Lava?
2:41
SPEAKER_05: Everyone does.
2:41
SPEAKER_05: That's the best game.
2:42
SPEAKER_05: I still play that game.
2:44
SPEAKER_04: That was fun.
2:44
SPEAKER_04: When I'm cleaning the floors, and I'm like, oh.
2:47
SPEAKER_04: I came in and yeah, she was jumping around her furniture.
2:50
SPEAKER_04: Oh no.
2:51
SPEAKER_04: Uh I feel like it's a record.
2:52
SPEAKER_04: I feel like every episode in some way we can turn it back to Disney, which is very versatile of us.
2:57
SPEAKER_04: Which you always accuse me of being like the Disney nerd, but I you usually provoke the conversation.
3:03
SPEAKER_04: I do.
3:03
SPEAKER_04: They're coming up with a live action hunchback in Notre Dame.
3:07
SPEAKER_04: And Hercules.
3:08
SPEAKER_04: And Hercules.
3:09
SPEAKER_04: You see that one?
3:09
SPEAKER_04: And Lee Lone Stitch.
3:10
SPEAKER_04: I'm more excited for Hercules and I like that they're now embarking on the 90s animated films.
3:17
SPEAKER_05: Because they know it sells.
3:18
SPEAKER_05: They know like we're all the millennials are just gonna flock to the theaters and be like, oh my gosh, hunchback.
3:23
SPEAKER_04: They already did Mulan.
3:25
SPEAKER_04: And I want these ones.
3:27
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, that was a bit of a flop.
3:28
SPEAKER_04: I want these ones to also be like dark and mature, though.
3:31
SPEAKER_04: I'm sure they will.
3:32
SPEAKER_04: Like they need to stick to Victor Hugo's actual novel.
3:36
SPEAKER_04: Well, that's really dark.
3:38
SPEAKER_04: Have you read it?
3:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Kill Esmeralda.
3:40
unknown: Oh yeah.
3:41
SPEAKER_04: She she's executed.
3:42
SPEAKER_05: Isn't she burned at the stake?
3:44
SPEAKER_05: I think she's actually hanged in the book.
3:46
SPEAKER_05: I'm not, don't quote me on that because I haven't read it.
3:49
SPEAKER_05: I haven't read it in a while.
3:50
SPEAKER_05: But I'm pretty sure, and again, spoiler alert, if you've never read the book.
3:54
SPEAKER_04: If you're planning on reading the original Victor, he goes to Hunchbox.
3:58
SPEAKER_02: Please fast forward 30 seconds.
4:00
SPEAKER_02: We're in the middle of it right now here on the last chapter.
4:03
SPEAKER_05: What happens is she's like at her execution and she sees Phoebus, like the you know, the soldier she's the lover.
4:09
SPEAKER_05: He's also executed, isn't he?
4:10
SPEAKER_05: No, he like watches her die and doesn't do anything about it.
4:13
SPEAKER_05: And I think her like last few thoughts are like, oh, he's here and he's gonna like save me.
4:17
SPEAKER_05: And he just like watches like and he doesn't even care.
4:19
SPEAKER_04: He just is like, yeah, there that's what they should make the Disney film into.
4:23
SPEAKER_04: That's a bit dark.
4:24
SPEAKER_04: And then they can promote Beheaded, and then it comes full circle, and they're like, This has been brought to you.
4:29
SPEAKER_05: Sponsored by Beheaded Podcast.
4:32
SPEAKER_05: Give us a follow if you like this.
4:34
SPEAKER_05: Uh yeah, no, I'm excited.
4:36
SPEAKER_05: I I I love Hunchback a lot, but I think I'm more excited for live-action Hercules.
4:41
SPEAKER_05: I don't know why.
4:41
SPEAKER_05: I just think it's gonna be cool and mythical and Greek and I don't know.
4:45
SPEAKER_05: I feel like there's just a lot more creative liberty you can take.
4:48
SPEAKER_02: I feel like hunchback's cool and I love the story, but they're gonna have to find someone with a strong nose line.
4:55
SPEAKER_02: They already you've seen the cast.
4:56
SPEAKER_02: No.
4:56
SPEAKER_02: You haven't?
4:57
SPEAKER_02: I haven't.
4:58
SPEAKER_02: Oh, I saw it on Instagram the other day.
4:59
SPEAKER_05: Really?
5:00
SPEAKER_05: Okay, we're gonna have to look that up afterwards.
5:01
SPEAKER_05: Um, the pain and panic cracked me up.
5:04
SPEAKER_05: Do you know who they well, I guess you don't.
5:05
SPEAKER_05: I feel like Jonathan's gonna be one of them.
5:08
SPEAKER_05: No, um, Pain is Jonah Hill.
5:10
SPEAKER_05: No, panic, the what the fat one.
5:12
SPEAKER_05: Oh, how rude.
5:13
SPEAKER_05: I thought Jonah Hill got thin.
5:15
SPEAKER_05: I think he fluctuates.
5:16
SPEAKER_05: I think he's he yo yo.
5:18
SPEAKER_05: I think he I think it depends on his role, to be honest.
5:20
SPEAKER_05: Anyway, but I hate to say chubier uh guy is Jonah Hill, and then the skinny one I get-I think Panic is the one.
5:28
SPEAKER_05: And I don't know the actor's name, but he's the guy from uh uh She's Out of My League, the main guy.
5:34
SPEAKER_05: He's like he's also like in Sorcerer's Apprentice with Nick Cage, and he's in Knocked Up.
5:40
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I know who you're talking about.
5:41
SPEAKER_05: He's like dark hair kind of.
5:43
SPEAKER_04: He does all the Seth Rogen stuff.
5:45
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
5:45
SPEAKER_04: The stoner kid.
5:46
SPEAKER_05: He's like a very judge Jud Apato character.
5:49
SPEAKER_05: Tw twitchy.
5:49
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, but he's pet that makes sense, right?
5:51
SPEAKER_04: He's panic.
5:52
SPEAKER_04: Panic.
5:53
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
5:53
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
5:53
SPEAKER_04: No, I did see this.
5:54
SPEAKER_05: Tom Hiddleston is Hades.
5:56
SPEAKER_04: Okay, who's Magra again?
5:57
SPEAKER_05: Some girl I've never seen before.
5:59
SPEAKER_05: Cool.
6:00
SPEAKER_04: Who's Hercules?
6:01
SPEAKER_05: Some guy I've never seen before, but is quite handsome.
6:04
unknown: Cool.
6:04
SPEAKER_05: He's got like curly.
6:06
SPEAKER_04: I'm excited to see Tom Hiddleston as Hades.
6:08
SPEAKER_04: I think that's a perfect match.
6:10
SPEAKER_05: They've gotta nail that.
6:11
SPEAKER_05: I was thinking what he'd look like with just flame hair, and I don't know how that's gonna be.
6:15
SPEAKER_05: Oh, that's gonna be really cool.
6:16
SPEAKER_05: They gotta give him Loki hair, right?
6:18
SPEAKER_04: He has to have Loki hair.
6:20
SPEAKER_04: I'm just seeing a recessed hairline.
6:23
SPEAKER_04: Oh man.
6:24
SPEAKER_04: Anyway.
6:24
SPEAKER_04: Okay, beyond Disney cut culture.
6:28
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, cut cut all of that out.
6:30
SPEAKER_04: Uh how about some real refined culture on TV lately?
6:35
SPEAKER_04: The coronation?
6:37
SPEAKER_04: Is that what you speak of?
6:39
SPEAKER_04: I was actually talking about the real No, I'm just kidding.
6:41
SPEAKER_02: Yeah, something about like what Taylor Swift thing is about to come out of your mouth.
6:46
SPEAKER_04: Uh last night's tour.
6:47
SPEAKER_04: No, I just kidding.
6:48
SPEAKER_04: Um, yeah, we got a king on the throne.
6:52
SPEAKER_05: Like we don't, but they do.
6:54
SPEAKER_05: I thought, I mean, I can't believe you and I didn't like set something up to actually watch it together.
6:58
SPEAKER_05: But I like I knew it was coming up and I meant to like DVR it or whatever you call it these days.
7:03
SPEAKER_05: DVR it.
7:04
SPEAKER_05: What do you call it?
7:05
SPEAKER_05: How do you well you can't record it?
7:07
SPEAKER_03: You just no, it's like a save it, you DVR it.
7:11
SPEAKER_03: I don't know.
7:12
SPEAKER_05: Maybe that's a thing.
7:13
SPEAKER_05: I don't have cable.
7:14
SPEAKER_05: Anyway, I thought I could do that, and I just forgot to.
7:17
SPEAKER_05: Like the day before was Cinco de Mayo, and obviously priorities, tequila and whatnot.
7:23
SPEAKER_05: So I forgot to do it, and in the in the US, at least where we are, I think it came on at like three in the morning.
7:29
SPEAKER_05: So in my mind, I woke up, like, went to this volleyball thing with some friends, and I was like, oh crap, I was like, coronation's done, and I missed it.
7:36
SPEAKER_05: And I was like, Megan for sure got up at 3 a.m.
7:39
SPEAKER_05: and watched it.
7:40
SPEAKER_02: And then I was a little disappointed that you didn't.
7:42
SPEAKER_05: I did for um both weddings, the last two weddings.
7:47
SPEAKER_04: What I did stay up for is to see um the Queen's announcement.
7:52
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
7:53
SPEAKER_01: My queen, your queen, Taylor Swift, and now speak now.
7:58
SPEAKER_04: I knew this announcement.
7:59
SPEAKER_04: I knew that.
8:00
SPEAKER_04: I woke up to that in the middle of the night on Friday.
8:03
SPEAKER_01: Not important.
8:04
SPEAKER_04: Um I am very, very impressed by our friend Megan Clausen, whose father is a yeoman, as we discussed in the interview with her.
8:13
SPEAKER_04: Right.
8:13
SPEAKER_04: And he was a part of the coronation, which is really cool.
8:17
SPEAKER_04: He was in charge of guarding the crown jewels at Westminster Abbey during the procession.
8:24
SPEAKER_04: That's a big job.
8:25
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
8:26
SPEAKER_04: Um, and speaking of Megan, I have just great transitions tonight.
8:31
SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
8:31
SPEAKER_05: I don't know where you're going.
8:32
SPEAKER_05: I don't know where you're going with anything right now.
8:34
SPEAKER_05: So let's see what you mean.
8:35
SPEAKER_04: I've got my own banter, my own mind.
8:37
SPEAKER_04: It's all it's all in order in my brain.
8:39
SPEAKER_04: Just one long song.
8:40
SPEAKER_04: Falling hard for the royal guard came out.
8:43
SPEAKER_04: Perfect timing with the coronation, the week of.
8:45
SPEAKER_04: That is cool.
8:46
SPEAKER_04: She did that well.
8:47
SPEAKER_04: Uh, I already finished it.
8:49
SPEAKER_04: Damn.
8:50
SPEAKER_04: Go get your book.
8:51
SPEAKER_04: Go to whatever bookstore you go to.
8:55
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
8:55
SPEAKER_04: Get Falling Hard for the Royal Guard by Megan Clausen.
8:58
SPEAKER_04: Today.
8:59
SPEAKER_04: I laughed.
9:00
SPEAKER_04: I cried.
9:01
SPEAKER_04: I weeped.
9:03
SPEAKER_04: What's other words for what?
9:06
SPEAKER_04: I chuckled.
9:07
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
9:07
SPEAKER_04: I was angry.
9:09
SPEAKER_04: I was heartfelt.
9:11
SPEAKER_04: You were heartfelt?
9:13
SPEAKER_05: Um, yes.
9:14
SPEAKER_05: I I have not read it, but I'm excited to read it soon.
9:17
SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna borrow your copy, and then I'm gonna buy my own because I support her, so but first I'm gonna steal your copy.
9:23
SPEAKER_04: So um, but overall, I highly recommend it.
9:26
SPEAKER_04: I'm not typically a rom-com type of person.
9:28
SPEAKER_04: Right.
9:29
SPEAKER_04: Like I'm normally neither of us are, hence this podcast.
9:32
SPEAKER_04: I'm normally into like deep, dark, historical, depressing stuff where there's a lot of death and sadness.
9:39
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
9:39
SPEAKER_04: And um this kind of changed my mind.
9:42
SPEAKER_04: It was a very Are you gonna go on a rom-com binge now?
9:47
SPEAKER_04: Well, I liked what Megan said when we asked her, like, what are some of your favorite books?
9:50
SPEAKER_04: And she was saying, like, oh, I'm so like basic, which is not.
9:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, Jane Austen and Pride and Prejudice and um The Bronte Sisters.
9:59
SPEAKER_04: And I think I wanna go back and like reread, reread that whole era.
10:04
SPEAKER_05: Definitely have to reread Pride and Prejudice because I you assume when you read things like you're mature enough to understand everything.
10:10
SPEAKER_05: So it's like I was what 15, 16 when I read I was 17 when I read this book.
10:15
SPEAKER_05: And it's like you read it and you're like, oh, I'm so sophisticated because I read this book.
10:18
SPEAKER_05: And I'm the same age as though.
10:19
SPEAKER_05: And I yeah, exactly.
10:20
SPEAKER_05: And then you're like, oh, maybe I should give that a second look because I probably didn't quite like grasp all the concepts.
10:26
SPEAKER_04: What is love?
10:27
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
10:28
SPEAKER_04: Um yeah, Jane Eyre has always been like my favorite.
10:32
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
10:34
SPEAKER_04: What what would you call those novels?
10:36
SPEAKER_04: Like British literature?
10:38
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's like 19th century British literature.
10:41
SPEAKER_05: I feel like, because I mean, you know, I don't know if this was true in your high school, but in my high school, like you had like freshman year literature, and then you got to pick in like sophomore year if you were gonna do like multicultural literature, British literature, I didn't get that, American literature, yeah.
10:56
SPEAKER_05: I did not get choice essentially, it was like you had like a mini major, you had to like specialize in different types of literature.
11:02
SPEAKER_04: I did not get that in California, yeah.
11:04
SPEAKER_04: But I was an English major and I took a lot of the British literature courses.
11:08
SPEAKER_04: Right.
11:09
SPEAKER_04: You know, very, yeah.
11:11
SPEAKER_04: Sorry, I'm yawning.
11:12
SPEAKER_04: I'm not yawning at you.
11:13
SPEAKER_04: My gosh, I don't think you've ever yawned on this podcast.
11:16
SPEAKER_04: I know British literature can be a little dry.
11:19
SPEAKER_04: Move it along, Megan.
11:20
SPEAKER_04: I'm just gonna get anyway.
11:22
SPEAKER_04: I'm kidding.
11:22
SPEAKER_04: I guess that's a good sign to move on.
11:25
SPEAKER_04: We'll be right back after a quick break.
11:28
SPEAKER_04: Hey executionados.
11:30
SPEAKER_04: As you know, Elizabeth and I love our snacks and we take them very seriously.
11:34
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, whether it's our charcuterie boards, our flatbreads, our what did you make from Margaret Paul episode?
11:41
SPEAKER_05: Our Salisbury steak.
11:43
SPEAKER_05: Salisbury steak.
11:44
SPEAKER_05: Our vino.
11:45
SPEAKER_05: Our vino.
11:46
SPEAKER_05: We need it all for podcasting.
11:48
SPEAKER_04: But sometimes I just don't have time to get to the store.
11:51
SPEAKER_04: I'm trying to collect my notes for the show.
11:53
SPEAKER_04: I'm just getting off of work.
11:55
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I'm off in other states, probably running marathons, maybe watching all the Lord of the Rings again.
12:00
SPEAKER_05: I'm busy.
12:00
SPEAKER_05: We have very busy lives.
12:02
SPEAKER_04: So on nights like that, that's when we use Instacart.
12:05
SPEAKER_04: Instacart has multiple stores, so I can find all my favorite products.
12:08
SPEAKER_04: My items are hand selected by a shopper based on my preferences and can be delivered to my door in as fast as an hour.
12:15
SPEAKER_04: They highlight deals to help me save money and offer smart suggestions.
12:19
SPEAKER_04: Now you can get free delivery on your first order over$35.
12:23
SPEAKER_04: Follow the link in our bio on our Instagram page, and that will let Instacart know that we sent you.
12:29
SPEAKER_04: And now back to the show.
12:31
SPEAKER_04: Literature.
12:32
SPEAKER_04: British.
12:34
SPEAKER_04: British England.
12:35
SPEAKER_04: Today.
12:36
SPEAKER_04: Dark history.
12:39
SPEAKER_04: These are all the hashtags I use on dark hashtag dark history.
12:43
SPEAKER_04: Hashtag dark humor.
12:44
SPEAKER_04: Hashtag history prize.
12:47
SPEAKER_04: It's not true.
12:48
SPEAKER_04: I try to get away.
12:49
SPEAKER_04: I try to get away with that one.
12:51
SPEAKER_04: Um, we're gonna kind of revisit a genre that we've talked about before, but we're gonna do it through another angle of the world.
13:00
SPEAKER_04: I like that.
13:00
SPEAKER_05: That's a good way to introduce it.
13:02
SPEAKER_05: You introduce.
13:04
SPEAKER_05: Well, our executionee of the evening is Elizabeth Sawyer.
13:08
SPEAKER_05: And if you've never heard of this woman, I didn't.
13:12
SPEAKER_05: It's probably because you're American.
13:13
SPEAKER_05: Just kidding.
13:14
SPEAKER_05: Um, this is actually a person who's pretty famous um in the London witch trials.
13:21
SPEAKER_05: And so we were talking about this before we were recording tonight.
13:26
SPEAKER_05: And obviously on this podcast, we've talked about witches before.
13:30
SPEAKER_05: Which we specifically talked about Salem a few times, right?
13:33
SPEAKER_05: Um, we know we had the uh the French palm reader uh a few episodes ago, and she was accused of witchcraft.
13:41
SPEAKER_05: La Voisine.
13:42
SPEAKER_05: La Voisine.
13:43
SPEAKER_05: But we never have actually covered anything um about the London witch trials.
13:48
SPEAKER_05: And those actually took place um before the Salem witch trials in America or colonial America.
13:55
SPEAKER_05: Um, so this is a good way to introduce it, is through our person, Elizabeth Sawyer, tonight.
13:59
SPEAKER_05: Um, we're gonna kind of talk about what the political climate is like leading up to her story.
14:05
SPEAKER_05: Um, and even though she, again, doesn't have like a huge story in terms of like early life, you know, what she went through, and then execution, it was more so focused on like obviously the end of her life, but very uh pivotal, I think, moment in history, given all that was going on in England at this time.
14:25
SPEAKER_04: I have to be honest, like quote London witch trials foreign term to me.
14:31
SPEAKER_05: I had never heard of it.
14:33
SPEAKER_04: It's a thing, yeah.
14:35
SPEAKER_04: Right, and it predates Salem.
14:37
SPEAKER_04: It does.
14:38
SPEAKER_04: So London has a very robust history of witches, and clearly America gets everything from England, so it's not like we invented this.
14:48
SPEAKER_04: It really, I mean, witchcraft has been going on for centuries and centuries beyond.
14:52
SPEAKER_04: But really, between 1500 and 1700 in England, there was what they called the great hunt, and this is where America was really influenced and it came over here of even the idea of witchcraft and that witches needed to be executed and hunted down and whatnot.
15:14
SPEAKER_04: So between just even reducing that, only between 1500 and 1600, there were 80,000 witches sentenced to death um in Europe altogether.
15:27
SPEAKER_04: 80% of them were women.
15:29
SPEAKER_04: Um, Germany actually had the highest number of witch executions.
15:33
SPEAKER_04: That's interesting.
15:34
SPEAKER_04: Did you know that?
15:34
SPEAKER_04: I didn't.
15:35
SPEAKER_04: Um, and then of course there was Salem as well.
15:38
SPEAKER_04: Right.
15:38
SPEAKER_04: And the women that they were targeting, stereotypical.
15:42
SPEAKER_04: Old, poor, they have a cat.
15:46
SPEAKER_04: Watch out.
15:47
SPEAKER_04: Probably a mole somewhere.
15:49
SPEAKER_04: This is my favorite.
15:50
SPEAKER_04: Upper lip hair?
15:51
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
15:51
SPEAKER_05: Hairy upper lip.
15:53
SPEAKER_05: Watch out.
15:54
SPEAKER_05: Watch out.
15:55
SPEAKER_05: Um that Russian gym when meat comes out sometimes.
15:58
SPEAKER_05: We we talked about um this before, but if you can float in water, you were considered a witch.
16:04
SPEAKER_05: Interesting.
16:05
SPEAKER_04: Which is my favorite because they throw them in the water and if they floated, you're executed.
16:09
SPEAKER_04: If you didn't float, you drown.
16:10
SPEAKER_05: You did it anyway, you're dead.
16:11
SPEAKER_05: Right.
16:12
SPEAKER_05: Um, and when we talk about witchcraft, like obviously that's a very loose term.
16:17
SPEAKER_05: Like, what does that mean at the root of it?
16:19
SPEAKER_05: And their definition was essentially you were conspiring with the devil or demons.
16:24
SPEAKER_05: You know, it wasn't like, oh, you know, you're just going about cursing people or talking to animals or having herbal remedies.
16:32
SPEAKER_05: Like, it wasn't anything like that.
16:34
SPEAKER_05: It meant specifically like you're being influenced by evil.
16:38
SPEAKER_05: Satan.
16:39
SPEAKER_05: Satan usually got to you.
16:41
SPEAKER_05: So this is a different climate, um, right?
16:44
SPEAKER_05: This is now, uh, and we've talked about this character before, but King James I is now on the throne of England.
16:51
SPEAKER_05: Yes.
16:52
SPEAKER_05: He's also, in case you're confused, he's also uh King James VI of Scotland.
16:58
SPEAKER_01: Yes.
16:58
SPEAKER_05: Remember, and who is he, Megan?
17:00
SPEAKER_04: He is the son of my favorite Mary, well, one of my favorites, Mary Queen of Scots.
17:05
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
17:06
SPEAKER_04: So he's yes, he's King in Scotland, and then Queen Elizabeth I of England dies in 1603.
17:12
SPEAKER_04: So he inherits the crown in England, and he is incredibly paranoid about witches.
17:19
SPEAKER_04: I feel like I have to get this out now because I keep I I like keep referencing this, but Tracy Borman's trilogy of The King's Witch is centered around King James I's witch hunt and what the protagonist is one of his targets of who he thinks is a witch.
17:35
SPEAKER_04: So if you're if if as we're talking about this and you're more and more interested in this entire subject, I highly recommend Tracy Borman's series.
17:42
SPEAKER_04: It's a really fun historical fiction on it.
17:45
SPEAKER_04: But going back to James I, he at first he's almost skeptical of witches.
17:50
SPEAKER_04: At first, he feels like, mmm, I don't think that this is real.
17:53
SPEAKER_04: I don't think that magic is necessarily real, but I do think we need to watch out for this.
17:59
SPEAKER_04: But his mind really changes, and especially once he gets on the throne in England and he's now James I, he feels like his country needs to be warned and prepared and know how to handle witchcraft, which is such a weird way to think of this.
18:14
SPEAKER_04: Like knowing like this is an issue, be aware of the issue, and we need to buckle it down.
18:20
SPEAKER_04: And he almost sets the rest of the country into paranoia because he teaches them witches are living amongst you.
18:27
SPEAKER_04: They have made packs with the devil, they could be your neighbors, they can be just that again, that old woman hag with the cat and a hairy upper lip.
18:36
SPEAKER_04: Watch out for her.
18:37
SPEAKER_04: Right.
18:37
SPEAKER_04: But they're living amongst us all throughout England, all throughout Scotland.
18:42
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
18:42
SPEAKER_04: And he creates a manual.
18:45
SPEAKER_04: I I think we can call it a manual.
18:46
SPEAKER_05: It's a book.
18:47
SPEAKER_05: It's a slim book.
18:49
SPEAKER_05: Very concise and to the point.
18:51
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I believe it translates to like demonology, is the title, right?
18:55
SPEAKER_04: Yes, he's the only monarch in England who actually wrote a book on the subject of hunting witches.
19:01
SPEAKER_05: It's so strange.
19:03
SPEAKER_05: So bizarre.
19:03
SPEAKER_05: If you think about his history too, I mean, again, we've discussed this in our Mary Queen of Scots episode, but it's like you have a queen mother who was beheaded.
19:12
SPEAKER_05: You have a father who was also killed when you were very young.
19:15
SPEAKER_05: Um, Lord Darnley, uh Henry Stewart was his um was his father.
19:20
SPEAKER_05: And if you remember right from our Mary Queen of Scots episode, that was the whole incident where his house blew up, and then they found him, but there was signs of either him being smothered or strangulation.
19:30
SPEAKER_05: Um so he already has like two of his parents die in a very gruesome way, right?
19:35
SPEAKER_05: And then there were, I believe, two attempts on his life before he even ascended to the throne.
19:41
SPEAKER_05: So, like, he's been surrounded by death for a long time, and he starts to get this feeling of like maybe he's cursed.
19:47
SPEAKER_05: Like, maybe someone out there has it out for him.
19:49
SPEAKER_05: And like, what other excuse could there be other than this is like someone plotting against him with the devil?
19:55
SPEAKER_05: Like the devil wants him dead, and there's all these demons out, you know, at work trying to bring him down, essentially.
20:02
SPEAKER_04: She took it so personal, I feel like.
20:04
SPEAKER_04: He did.
20:04
SPEAKER_04: I'm like, dude, maybe the world's not about you.
20:08
SPEAKER_04: Well, and in his I'm gonna call it a manual, in his in his book, Demonology, it not only talks about how to identify a witch, so all those things we said, like the cat, the moles, the the body marks, isolated, poor, old.
20:23
SPEAKER_04: Basically, if you don't like your creepy neighbor down the street, then she's probably a witch.
20:28
SPEAKER_04: Right.
20:29
SPEAKER_04: So the book taught you how to identify the witch, and then how as a city should you handle the trial and even methods of torture?
20:39
SPEAKER_04: How do you get a confession out of them?
20:41
SPEAKER_04: Like it was literally step by step like try the thumb screws, try, you know, these different methods of torture, and then what was an appropriate sentence, which was hanging or burning?
20:54
SPEAKER_04: Right.
20:55
SPEAKER_04: How do you get rid of your witch problem in your local town today?
21:00
SPEAKER_04: It's like witch repellent today.
21:02
SPEAKER_05: Here are your five steps.
21:04
SPEAKER_05: So weird.
21:04
SPEAKER_05: And like imagine if a leader today came out with something like that.
21:08
SPEAKER_05: You know, whether it was like witchcraft or like any type of just like marginalized group that was just like, oh, you don't like this one specific group of people.
21:16
SPEAKER_05: Like, here's how to eradicate them.
21:18
SPEAKER_05: So strange.
21:19
SPEAKER_04: I mean, but haven't we seen that time and time over history?
21:23
SPEAKER_04: I suppose.
21:24
SPEAKER_04: Nothing.
21:24
SPEAKER_04: Just thinking like Holocaust.
21:27
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
21:28
SPEAKER_04: You know, like here's how to make a good one.
21:32
SPEAKER_04: It's it's sad.
21:33
SPEAKER_04: It's truly like, I don't think I've ever thought of it in that way of like witch hunting like racism in a way.
21:39
SPEAKER_05: I mean, it's not a race, but it's well, it's a crazy abuse of power towards something that you find so, I don't know, like you said, personal.
21:46
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I, you know, aside from Hitler, I can't think of many leaders that have been like, this these are the actions we're going to take against this specific group.
21:54
SPEAKER_05: Maybe in war, I suppose.
21:56
SPEAKER_05: But also this quote unquote group is.
22:00
SPEAKER_05: Not a group.
22:01
SPEAKER_04: Completely.
22:02
SPEAKER_03: It's completely made up.
22:04
SPEAKER_04: Right.
22:05
SPEAKER_04: I'm thinking of the midwives or anybody who had an apothecary.
22:09
SPEAKER_04: Basically, in this time, if you knew how to use herbs to help with healing, which was a lot of women, again, the midwives.
22:16
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
22:16
SPEAKER_04: They knew which concoctions.
22:19
SPEAKER_04: Which which?
22:20
SPEAKER_04: Which witch.
22:21
SPEAKER_04: They know which um, they know uh the herbs that you need to use.
22:27
SPEAKER_04: And lavender will do this, and you get ghili weed.
22:30
SPEAKER_04: I don't know why I'm thinking things in Harry Potter.
22:31
SPEAKER_04: That would be a real thing.
22:33
SPEAKER_04: But you know, you go to the fruits and you go hunting for mushrooms and all of that had to be completely hidden.
22:42
SPEAKER_04: If you were somebody out in the forest picking different types of like flowers and herbs and roots, and that's a big no-no.
22:50
SPEAKER_04: Because now at this point, with this demonology book out, everybody is clearly on the hunt and looking for these signs.
22:56
SPEAKER_04: That's true.
22:57
SPEAKER_04: Scary.
22:58
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and it's like at what point, you know, there's like such a thin line between what's considered witchcraft and what's considered science.
23:04
SPEAKER_05: And I mean, even a lot of early science is considered kind of quackery, right?
23:09
SPEAKER_05: It's like like astrology used to be part of science.
23:12
SPEAKER_05: It's like, you know, people people had such interesting conceptions of things at this time.
23:16
SPEAKER_05: It wasn't obviously what we know now in terms of uh, you know, medicine or scientific method or any of that.
23:23
SPEAKER_05: It's like anything that you could do in this realm was kind of used against you in a negative way, I think.
23:29
SPEAKER_05: But very strange time to be alive because our poor lady of the evening, Elizabeth Sawyer, was born in 1572.
23:38
SPEAKER_05: Um, and she was from an area called Winchmore Hill, which is in northern London.
23:43
SPEAKER_05: And again, uh, like a lot of our uh executiones who don't really uh, you know, they're not royalty or noble, like we don't know a lot about their early life, right?
23:53
SPEAKER_05: We did know a little bit about what she looked like later in life and kind of her general demeanor.
23:58
SPEAKER_01: So explain to me why did people think she was a witch?
24:00
SPEAKER_05: Oh, you know, just because she was uh pale and hunched back and had one ghostly white eye.
24:08
SPEAKER_05: I'm just picturing the lady from Big Fish.
24:11
SPEAKER_05: That's exactly what I was thinking.
24:13
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, like the Helen Bottom Carter character.
24:15
SPEAKER_04: Oh no, no, not even Helena Bottom Carter.
24:18
SPEAKER_04: Remember at the beginning where it's like that's her too.
24:20
SPEAKER_05: Is that her?
24:21
SPEAKER_05: Absolutely.
24:22
SPEAKER_05: Watch it again.
24:24
SPEAKER_04: My mouth is my jaw is open right now.
24:27
SPEAKER_04: I had no idea.
24:28
SPEAKER_05: You're like, no, no, not that character.
24:29
SPEAKER_05: No, that's the whole point, is that she's she's also both she's that's why it's a confusing storyline because she's she first starts as the witch and then she's the young girl, and then she grows up to be the lady who lives in the house.
24:43
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and then she lives in the lady, she becomes the lady, the young woman in the house by herself, who Ian McGregor visits, and then she turns into the witch.
24:52
SPEAKER_02: So Okay, maybe we need to take this offline.
24:55
SPEAKER_02: We will.
24:56
SPEAKER_02: I have so many questions.
24:58
SPEAKER_05: You're supposed to, because at the end of the story, they're like, wait, no, like she was old when he was young.
25:03
SPEAKER_04: Oh, I kinda remember that.
25:04
SPEAKER_04: And then they're like, frankly, I haven't seen that movie.
25:06
SPEAKER_04: And then they're like, Oh, the story doesn't make sense, is what they say.
25:09
SPEAKER_04: Okay, well, it doesn't.
25:10
SPEAKER_04: And but getting back on track, uh, sorry, go back to explaining what Elizabeth Sawyer looked like.
25:16
SPEAKER_05: Um, so that's what she looked like physically.
25:19
SPEAKER_05: Um, and she had a very how should we describe her?
25:25
SPEAKER_05: She's very quarrelsome.
25:26
SPEAKER_05: She's she swore a lot, she was very blasphemous, she wasn't a pleasant person in the least.
25:33
SPEAKER_05: Um, and because of like again, she lived alone, she didn't really have a whole lot going on in terms of oh, go ahead.
25:39
SPEAKER_05: Did she have hair on her upper lip?
25:41
SPEAKER_05: Most likely.
25:42
SPEAKER_05: Probably a mole.
25:43
SPEAKER_05: Another question.
25:44
SPEAKER_05: Go ahead.
25:44
SPEAKER_05: Did she have a cat?
25:45
SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
25:46
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
25:46
SPEAKER_05: She had a pig, which we'll get into.
25:49
SPEAKER_01: Okay.
25:49
SPEAKER_05: Um so again, so people were already rumoring, like, hey, this woman could be a witch.
25:55
SPEAKER_05: Just look at her.
25:56
SPEAKER_05: Just like, look at how awful she is.
25:58
SPEAKER_05: Um, and then there was an incident with a neighbor that happened.
26:03
SPEAKER_05: So her neighbor, Agnes Radcliffe, actually struck one of Elizabeth's pigs, one of her female pigs, um, because she accused the pig of eating her soap.
26:13
unknown: Okay.
26:18
SPEAKER_04: What like yeah, that pig should not eat soap.
26:21
SPEAKER_04: That pig is gonna get sick.
26:23
SPEAKER_05: I don't know.
26:24
SPEAKER_05: I don't know why the pig was in a position to eat the soap.
26:26
SPEAKER_05: Where's the pig?
26:27
SPEAKER_05: Where's the soap?
26:27
SPEAKER_05: How's that happening?
26:28
SPEAKER_05: I'm gonna I'm gonna move on with my questions with the the pig with the soap.
26:31
SPEAKER_05: Regardless, let's pretend the soap's in a barn, let's pretend the pig's also in a barn.
26:35
SPEAKER_05: Pig eats the soap.
26:37
SPEAKER_05: Agnes takes a stick and like hits the pig.
26:40
SPEAKER_05: She strikes the pig.
26:41
SPEAKER_05: And Elizabeth is very upset.
26:43
SPEAKER_05: Perhaps because she doesn't have a lot of humans in her life, and this is one of her only friends.
26:46
SPEAKER_04: Animal friends.
26:47
SPEAKER_04: I do that with my dog though, like just today.
26:50
SPEAKER_04: You hit her with stick.
26:51
unknown: No.
26:52
SPEAKER_04: But she was like chewing on something, and I could I could see she had something in her mouth.
26:57
SPEAKER_04: And I look at her, I go, Penny.
26:59
SPEAKER_04: And instantly she starts acting like there's nothing in her mouth.
27:02
SPEAKER_04: Like, for anyone who has a dog, you know this look.
27:05
SPEAKER_04: And then instantly she becomes like a feral, me trying to get pulling something out of her mouth.
27:11
SPEAKER_04: And you know, I get it.
27:12
SPEAKER_04: I get it.
27:13
SPEAKER_04: You gotta same thing with the pig.
27:14
SPEAKER_04: So smack him in the place a little.
27:16
SPEAKER_04: No, I would never hit my dog.
27:17
SPEAKER_04: Well, pretend like I hit Penny, though.
27:19
SPEAKER_04: This is the situation.
27:20
SPEAKER_04: I would be mad at you.
27:21
SPEAKER_05: Good.
27:22
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, if you hit my dog.
27:23
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
27:24
SPEAKER_05: So exactly.
27:24
SPEAKER_05: This is this is the situation we're now in.
27:27
SPEAKER_05: So Agnes hits Elizabeth's pig.
27:30
SPEAKER_05: Oh god, no.
27:31
SPEAKER_04: Title of this episode Agnes hit Elizabeth's pig.
27:35
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
27:36
SPEAKER_05: Um, and uh, and so Elizabeth gets really upset and like curses her, right?
27:41
SPEAKER_05: They have this kind of like altercation.
27:43
SPEAKER_05: But then mysteriously, like four days later, Agnes just dies of like who knows what cause.
27:51
SPEAKER_05: Just like dies in her bed.
27:53
SPEAKER_05: And nobody knew what was going on, but Agnes apparently, who knows if this is true, but on her deathbed said, This is because Elizabeth cursed me.
28:02
SPEAKER_05: Like with her dying breath, she essentially accuses Elizabeth of witchcraft and says, That woman, like, I struck her pig and she struck me dead.
28:11
SPEAKER_04: I mean, it could have been food poisoning.
28:15
SPEAKER_04: It could have been.
28:16
SPEAKER_04: What would kill?
28:17
SPEAKER_04: I guess there's a lot of odd diseases back then that could be contaminated soap.
28:21
SPEAKER_04: I think about like the sweating sickness.
28:24
SPEAKER_04: I don't know if that was prevalent at this time, maybe not.
28:27
SPEAKER_04: Sure.
28:27
SPEAKER_04: But I mean that would take you out.
28:29
SPEAKER_04: The COVID, maybe the COVID.
28:31
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
28:32
SPEAKER_04: Wow, she died in just a couple days and blamed Elizabeth.
28:35
SPEAKER_05: Like, yeah, so right after this altercation, dies, and then she's essentially like Elizabeth did it.
28:41
SPEAKER_04: That's not cool of her.
28:43
SPEAKER_05: But just because of that, it's enough to essentially take this to court.
28:48
SPEAKER_04: And going back to James I spreading this propaganda of take down the witches in your local towns.
28:54
SPEAKER_04: This is a this is like a pandemic right now, we have to control.
28:59
SPEAKER_04: Um, it was interesting.
29:01
SPEAKER_04: We were watching the documentary by Susanna Lipscomb, um, Witch Hunt A Century of Murders, I think it's called.
29:08
SPEAKER_04: It's a pretty good one.
29:08
SPEAKER_04: It's a super series.
29:09
SPEAKER_04: I like it.
29:10
SPEAKER_04: Really good torture reenactments.
29:12
SPEAKER_04: Ooh, kind of very too real.
29:14
SPEAKER_04: I liked it.
29:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
29:15
SPEAKER_04: Almost too real for us in a good way.
29:18
SPEAKER_04: And she hit an interesting point where it almost like the pendulum swung too far.
29:23
SPEAKER_04: Right.
29:24
SPEAKER_04: His intention of this book was to truly, in his mind, to actually educate and be like, you have to decipher who is a witch and who is not a witch.
29:33
SPEAKER_04: Right.
29:33
SPEAKER_04: But people kind of took that too far and just assumed, well, oh my god, they hit this, this, and this, then they have to be a witch.
29:40
SPEAKER_04: But kind of like overall, people just took it too far.
29:43
SPEAKER_04: And at that point, they just thought everybody who they didn't like had to have been a witch, and their king on the throne was telling them, Yes, well, you is it's your responsibility to arrest, try, accuse, and execute.
29:57
SPEAKER_04: So it is n is very quickly when Elizabeth Sawyer gets arrested after Agnes makes this like horrific this horrific claim on her deathbed.
30:08
SPEAKER_04: Right.
30:08
SPEAKER_04: And they tried to kind of put together this whole story while she was on trial, saying, Oh no, like Agnes wasn't the only one she murdered.
30:17
SPEAKER_04: Right.
30:18
SPEAKER_04: She murdered children and there was multiple killings, even animals.
30:22
SPEAKER_04: I I doubt there were animals considering how much she loved her pig.
30:27
SPEAKER_05: I love that you don't doubt the children at all.
30:29
SPEAKER_05: You're like, oh, animals, definitely not.
30:31
SPEAKER_04: And this trial became very popular.
30:34
SPEAKER_04: It was actually like, in a sense, for those times in the 1600s, it was basically broadcasted about because this was, I think, seen as a moment.
30:46
SPEAKER_04: It's a very significant witch trial.
30:48
SPEAKER_04: Like, like I said, there were 80,000 witches who were executed in the over the span of 100 years.
30:54
SPEAKER_04: But for whatever reason, Elizabeth Sawyer was one that stood out.
30:58
SPEAKER_04: I think because they thought that they caught a true witch.
31:00
SPEAKER_04: Right, exactly.
31:01
SPEAKER_04: Like the the fact that she died af right after threatening her.
31:06
SPEAKER_05: Right.
31:06
SPEAKER_05: Like they had such proof just because of that.
31:09
SPEAKER_05: And um they finally, and again, some sources say under torture, some say sources said torture wasn't necessarily involved, but essentially what happens is Elizabeth Sawyer confesses, and she confesses to more than just um what happened with Agnes.
31:26
SPEAKER_05: So she confesses to Agnes and says, yes, like I cursed her and she's dead.
31:31
SPEAKER_05: But also she confessed that she frequently gets visits from this demon dog, and the dog's name is Tom.
31:40
SPEAKER_05: I didn't know that.
31:41
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, it's a dog named Tom.
31:43
SPEAKER_05: And this dog named Tom.
31:45
SPEAKER_05: Dog named Tom.
31:46
SPEAKER_05: Sometimes he's a black dog, sometimes he's a white dog.
31:48
SPEAKER_05: And uh he visits her sometimes up to three times a week and essentially seduces her into like following Satan's orders.
31:58
SPEAKER_05: Seduce is a weird word to say.
32:00
SPEAKER_05: That's what they said in a lot of these sources, but I think for our purposes, we'll say like convinced her.
32:05
SPEAKER_05: So here's poor Elizabeth with only a pig as a friend and a mythical dog that comes to visit her three times a week.
32:13
SPEAKER_04: Well, and this confession was incredibly interesting because at first they actually couldn't find her guilty, despite the evidence that they had.
32:22
SPEAKER_04: The the judge was not quite convinced.
32:25
SPEAKER_04: He was more on the side of not really believing in witchcraft and thinking that it was just a bunch of hodgepodge and women acting hysterical.
32:34
SPEAKER_04: They couldn't find any proof to her murdering the children or the animals or the other murders that they said.
32:40
SPEAKER_04: They were still kind of caught up on, like, well, Agnes is still a weird situation, but they actually landed on innocence.
32:46
SPEAKER_04: However, she's unable to pay her prison fees.
32:51
SPEAKER_04: She's at Newgate jail.
32:53
SPEAKER_04: And because we've we mentioned this before, to add a layer of unfairness, if you were arrested and you were being held in prison, you had to pay your jail fees.
33:05
SPEAKER_04: Kind of like a rent to have your prison, like your cell.
33:08
SPEAKER_04: Like you really want to be there.
33:10
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
33:10
SPEAKER_04: Like you really want to be in that cell.
33:12
SPEAKER_04: You have to source your own food, you have to source your own way of living inside of the cell.
33:16
SPEAKER_04: And she had no friends, she had no family, no one liked her.
33:19
SPEAKER_04: So of course she's sitting in there and they're like, well, you have to like now, even though you got off innocent, now you have to pay the fees for being in jail.
33:28
SPEAKER_04: Jeez.
33:29
SPEAKER_04: And that's what really got her.
33:31
SPEAKER_05: On top of this, they did do a body search.
33:34
SPEAKER_05: Well, they had like female, not friends of hers, but some people try and figure out women, try and figure out if she carried any mark of the devil on her body.
33:43
SPEAKER_04: They did an entire search of her body, which is a very like demeaning, ugh, just creepy.
33:48
SPEAKER_04: Looking at every little crevice.
33:51
SPEAKER_04: Elizabeth and I were laughing.
33:52
SPEAKER_04: We're like, oh my god, if we were seen, if we were arrested and got some moles on us, freckles all over me.
33:59
SPEAKER_04: I have all types of weird shapes and moles.
34:01
SPEAKER_04: Well, these freckles are different.
34:02
SPEAKER_04: I have like a look at this mole, right?
34:03
SPEAKER_04: I've got moles.
34:05
SPEAKER_05: That's not a mole.
34:06
SPEAKER_05: That this is a mole.
34:07
SPEAKER_05: See, that like protrudes.
34:09
SPEAKER_04: I've got one of those.
34:10
SPEAKER_04: You do have a protruding protruding one.
34:12
SPEAKER_04: That one's kind of protruding.
34:13
SPEAKER_05: That's just a big freckle.
34:14
SPEAKER_04: Yours is a big freckle.
34:15
SPEAKER_05: I can say the same thing.
34:16
SPEAKER_05: No, it's literally like I've had it my whole life.
34:19
SPEAKER_04: I've had that my whole life.
34:20
SPEAKER_05: Really?
34:21
SPEAKER_05: Feel it.
34:22
SPEAKER_05: Let's feel each other's.
34:23
SPEAKER_05: Oh my gosh, this is creepy.
34:24
SPEAKER_05: Mine's protruding.
34:25
SPEAKER_05: Okay, but mine's like actually where is it?
34:28
SPEAKER_04: It's right there.
34:29
SPEAKER_04: Where?
34:30
SPEAKER_04: Right there.
34:31
SPEAKER_04: Oh my god, yeah, you're a witch, but they feel kind of similar.
34:33
SPEAKER_04: No?
34:34
SPEAKER_04: I think Anne Boleyn had one on her neck.
34:36
SPEAKER_05: Isn't that weird?
34:37
SPEAKER_04: I think we've talked about that.
34:38
SPEAKER_04: How uh that means you're a descendant, huh?
34:40
unknown: Yeah.
34:41
SPEAKER_04: No big deal.
34:41
SPEAKER_04: Just kidding.
34:43
SPEAKER_04: Anyway.
34:44
SPEAKER_04: Sorry, we got creepy.
34:45
SPEAKER_04: We're filling each other up over here.
34:46
SPEAKER_04: So they inspect her body and they really gotta like get into the crevices, and they do find a mole near her anus.
34:54
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
34:55
SPEAKER_05: I like the way you said that.
34:57
SPEAKER_05: Umthole.
34:58
SPEAKER_05: That's where they find it.
35:00
SPEAKER_05: And they're like, okay, this is enough evidence to really convict her.
35:04
SPEAKER_05: So at that point, she's then found guilty, and she is sentenced to be hanged by the neck until dead.
35:12
SPEAKER_04: I thought three days after, and she's in prison, that's when she confesses, and then they find her guilty.
35:19
SPEAKER_04: After she confesses, like you said.
35:21
SPEAKER_05: Am I wrong?
35:23
SPEAKER_05: I think the the mark is what set her over the mark is what set her over the bigger.
35:27
SPEAKER_01: Because I don't believe that.
35:28
SPEAKER_05: I don't think they necessarily believed her even when she had this confession.
35:31
SPEAKER_05: I mean, she was like, Oh, really?
35:33
SPEAKER_05: That's funny.
35:36
SPEAKER_04: Because she was just so like delirious.
35:37
SPEAKER_04: She's like, well, there's a dog in this.
35:39
SPEAKER_02: It's okay, Elizabeth.
35:40
SPEAKER_02: You can go home now.
35:42
SPEAKER_04: Just can you play your can you just pay your fines and leave?
35:45
SPEAKER_04: We really don't want you in here.
35:47
SPEAKER_04: Um the dog's got red eyes.
35:50
SPEAKER_04: Okay, and okay, so then they find the mole.
35:53
SPEAKER_04: I believe that was the sequence of events.
35:54
SPEAKER_04: Correct us if we're wrong if you have more information.
35:56
SPEAKER_04: Apologies.
35:57
SPEAKER_04: This is rare for us to have conflicting information, but also like limited information on Elizabeth Sawyer.
36:03
SPEAKER_04: Indeed.
36:03
SPEAKER_04: But makes it more fun.
36:04
SPEAKER_04: I like the ones we have to dig.
36:06
SPEAKER_04: Be a little bit speculative.
36:07
SPEAKER_04: I like the ones where we have to like kind of compare notes and compare the different like piece it together.
36:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, the different pieces of research.
36:14
SPEAKER_05: So um, so again, they find this mark, she's found guilty, and they officially decide to hang her.
36:20
SPEAKER_05: And there's no, I don't have the exact date.
36:23
SPEAKER_05: All I know is the year was 1621.
36:25
SPEAKER_05: I have the date.
36:26
SPEAKER_05: You do?
36:27
SPEAKER_05: April.
36:27
SPEAKER_04: See, we did use different research for once.
36:29
SPEAKER_04: Look at that.
36:30
SPEAKER_04: That's good.
36:30
SPEAKER_04: We have a little bit of each.
36:32
SPEAKER_04: There we go.
36:32
SPEAKER_04: April 19th, 1621.
36:35
SPEAKER_04: Perfect.
36:36
SPEAKER_04: She was 49 years old.
36:37
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
36:38
SPEAKER_04: Not even on the cusp of being a senior citizen.
36:41
SPEAKER_04: Can't even get her ARP card yet.
36:43
SPEAKER_04: Oh, she's already seen as some old hag with a hunchbag and one eye.
36:49
SPEAKER_05: Right.
36:49
SPEAKER_05: And so she becomes known as the Witch of Edmonton.
36:53
SPEAKER_05: And she literally was the most like infamous witch case of the entire Stuart age, which again is saying a lot considering there's over 80,000 witches that were executed at this point.
37:04
SPEAKER_05: Um but it's wild.
37:06
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, and it's like, again, for for what exactly we think the biggest thing was the fact that the death that she was accused of causing was just so close to when she was said to have caused it.
37:16
SPEAKER_05: Right.
37:17
SPEAKER_05: That is her confession.
37:18
SPEAKER_05: Well, but a lot of witches confess.
37:20
SPEAKER_05: That's what I'm saying is the maybe distinguishing factor, I suppose, in this one.
37:25
SPEAKER_05: Um, but she, if you're wondering where exactly she was hanged, she was hanged at Tyburn.
37:30
SPEAKER_05: And uh, and again, you've been to London, Megan, I haven't, but it's at the modern-day marble arch in central London.
37:36
SPEAKER_05: Do you know where that is?
37:37
SPEAKER_04: I'm mad at myself because before I went to London, like Tyburn wasn't really on my list.
37:42
SPEAKER_04: Oh.
37:43
SPEAKER_04: But but you have the book from Tyburn.
37:44
SPEAKER_04: I did.
37:45
SPEAKER_04: Last year I bought a book um about called T the Tyburn Gallows, and it no clear indication that that's really where it was, maybe being modern London and whatnot.
37:55
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
37:56
SPEAKER_04: But so there's uh Tower Hill, which is outside of Tower of London.
38:02
SPEAKER_04: Right.
38:03
SPEAKER_04: That is where a lot of the residents of Tower of London were brought over and they were executed there.
38:08
SPEAKER_04: And there were thousands of executions that took place there, but it was more not even I want to say necessarily like all only the nobles, but if you were held at the Tower of London, it was typically more for treason.
38:21
SPEAKER_04: Right.
38:21
SPEAKER_04: And it was more for a I want to say like a prestigious crime, versus the Newgate jail and Tyburn gallows, that was really for the low life of London.
38:32
SPEAKER_05: I was gonna say I think a lot of witch trials were actually at Tyburn.
38:37
SPEAKER_04: Yes, that is accurate.
38:39
SPEAKER_04: Tyburn was mostly hangings, but there was also drawn in quarterings.
38:44
SPEAKER_04: And there, yeah, and there was just some more like the grittier executions, I want to say.
38:49
SPEAKER_04: It was mostly for like the thieves, the lowlife murders, like the like you know, murders, sure, killing some guy at a pub, like not not attacking the king king of England, not being someone of a noble state.
39:03
SPEAKER_04: Okay, but it was um sometimes for just petty crimes, also.
39:07
SPEAKER_04: It was a lot of interesting, yeah, kind of it they there were thousands.
39:13
SPEAKER_04: I actually I want to get the actual number here.
39:15
SPEAKER_05: Okay.
39:16
SPEAKER_05: You you look at that really quick and I'll have one more note on this.
39:19
SPEAKER_05: Um, but the champlain of Newgate Prison, his name was Henry uh Goodcole, he actually published a pamphlet recounting in detail the trial and confession of Elizabeth Sawyer.
39:30
SPEAKER_05: And I think that's what also really publicized it, right?
39:32
SPEAKER_05: Like again, um, yes, the death, uh like Megan mentioned, the confession too, but the fact that it was all recounted here, like to the detail, um, which we we gave we took a look at it.
39:43
SPEAKER_05: A lot of old English words and uh things to um that will take some time reading.
39:49
SPEAKER_05: But in general, again, uh this is all published in a pamphlet and was um really publicized like around Europe at this time.
39:57
SPEAKER_04: So I'm looking to see how many people were actually executed there.
40:00
SPEAKER_04: But it does say Tyburn was primarily known for the gallows.
40:03
SPEAKER_04: It was the main execution site for the London era prisoners throughout the 16th century, um, and all the way through the 18th century.
40:12
SPEAKER_04: Um, and their forms of execution there were hung in chains, burning at the stake, drawn and quartered.
40:19
SPEAKER_04: Um they kind of did all kinds.
40:21
SPEAKER_04: They were very diverse.
40:23
SPEAKER_04: Alright, so you get dinner and show.
40:26
SPEAKER_04: So between 1571 and 1783, there were about 1,100 men and about only 100 women were hanged there.
40:34
SPEAKER_04: That's interesting if it was a popular space for the witch trials.
40:38
SPEAKER_04: Right.
40:39
SPEAKER_04: I think when I go back to London, I want to go find the Tyburn Gallows site.
40:44
SPEAKER_05: That definitely has to be on your list for next time.
40:47
SPEAKER_05: Um, but again, just an interesting story um amongst all the uh witch hysteria that's going on, again, not just here, but also um in America and throughout the rest of Europe too.
40:57
SPEAKER_05: And I want to have one quick note on uh where Elizabeth was from, the uh Winch, I'm gonna say it wrong, Winchmore Hill, where she was raised.
41:06
SPEAKER_05: Um there was like maybe 30 years before her execution, there was one incident of like there's a group of men who were essentially in the woods to the northern part of the village who were seen doing these like dark rituals, and no one actually caught them except for like one.
41:25
SPEAKER_05: They they grabbed one guy from all of this, and he was said to have like this big marked serpent on his chest.
41:32
SPEAKER_05: Like a tattoo?
41:33
SPEAKER_05: I suppose it didn't say if it was like a painted or like if it I mean I don't know like a birthmark of a tattoo or sorry, a birthmark of a couple of things.
41:41
SPEAKER_05: It's more of like a death eater tattoo.
41:44
SPEAKER_05: No, it's probably Lucius Malfoy.
41:46
SPEAKER_05: Right, exactly.
41:46
SPEAKER_05: It was just it was fine.
41:47
SPEAKER_05: They were just time jumping and it's the Malfoys.
41:49
SPEAKER_05: Um, but it was just interesting that I'm like, okay, so of all of like the only real evidence of people sitting, like doing these rituals, practicing witchcraft, they were a group of men, and yet you suspect like old haggard women of doing this.
42:03
SPEAKER_05: It's just so interesting, I think, that like again, it was really just like, what old ladies in this town can we get rid of?
42:09
SPEAKER_05: Because we just have a specific prejudice against them.
42:13
SPEAKER_04: That's the word I was looking for earlier, and it escaped my brain.
42:16
SPEAKER_04: Prejudice?
42:17
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
42:18
SPEAKER_04: The entire sorry, it was I knew it was that one of those like words, very common words on the tip of my tongue.
42:24
SPEAKER_04: When we were talking about like, oh, I never really thought of it in that aspect where the witch hunt was like it was a form of prejudice.
42:31
SPEAKER_04: Well, yeah.
42:31
SPEAKER_04: It was, yeah, is prejudice against these women.
42:34
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, you took the words out of my mouth.
42:37
SPEAKER_04: Well, thanks, Elizabeth.
42:38
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's prejudice against the women we don't like.
42:41
SPEAKER_04: And some men, but 80% of them.
42:44
SPEAKER_05: Even though men can literally be caught in the act with serpents painted on their chest, but nothing happens to them.
42:48
SPEAKER_01: But yeah, it's somebody was like, but if you got my pig.
42:52
SPEAKER_05: But if you get a hairy upper lip, you watch out.
42:54
SPEAKER_04: It's the gallows for you.
42:56
SPEAKER_04: I'm gonna go wax my lip after this.
42:59
SPEAKER_04: As we both should.
43:00
SPEAKER_04: I don't want anyone to get the wrong idea.
43:03
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, ladies, get rid of your moles, your cats, and your hair.
43:05
SPEAKER_04: Well, did you ever dabble with like pretending about that I was a witch?
43:10
SPEAKER_04: So obviously I know Wiccan is a real thing.
43:13
SPEAKER_04: I know witchcraft is a real thing.
43:14
SPEAKER_04: Yes.
43:15
SPEAKER_04: But did you ever dabble into that when you were a teenager?
43:19
SPEAKER_04: Oh yeah.
43:20
SPEAKER_05: I would say it was funny because I remember like I just thought it was such a cool thing to like to like research.
43:26
SPEAKER_05: Like I was really into astrology when I was probably like a sixth grader.
43:30
SPEAKER_05: Um, and you know, I my style was an interesting style back in middle school.
43:35
SPEAKER_05: Oh explain.
43:36
SPEAKER_05: You know, I mean, again, I don't even know what was in style then.
43:39
SPEAKER_05: It was like, gosh, 2000.
43:41
SPEAKER_05: Um, so it's like I, you know, I had like rings on every finger, and I wore these shirts with like glittery dragons on them, and like I don't know.
43:49
SPEAKER_05: Because I loved I loved Eastern astrology and Western astrology.
43:52
SPEAKER_05: So it's like some shirts were like, you know, all the zodiac signs, and then I but I was a dragon in like my Chinese zodiac year, so I had all those weird, like kind of I don't know, dragon stuff.
44:01
SPEAKER_05: And I just like, I don't know, I was like really into it.
44:04
SPEAKER_05: I only listened to like like rock music and alternative music.
44:07
SPEAKER_05: Um, I had a stepsister who was actually Wiccan, so like she kind of like taught me some things.
44:12
SPEAKER_01: Oh, see, there's always a cousin.
44:14
SPEAKER_01: There's always a someone you know.
44:15
SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
44:16
SPEAKER_05: And and I was raised Catholic, right?
44:18
SPEAKER_05: And I remember like my mom thought it was like whatever.
44:21
SPEAKER_05: She she was cool with it.
44:23
SPEAKER_05: She's like, oh cool, like whatever, experiment, like learn things, go off.
44:27
SPEAKER_05: And then, but I remember like my dad was the one who sit me down and be like, you know, you're still a Christian, right?
44:33
SPEAKER_05: And I was like, Oh, yeah, yeah, I'm fine.
44:36
SPEAKER_04: Like it's such a like a preteen thing to do.
44:41
SPEAKER_04: I was in the same phase.
44:42
SPEAKER_04: I had this book, got from Barnes and Noble.
44:44
SPEAKER_04: I still remember.
44:45
SPEAKER_04: It's like it's called Teen Witch.
44:47
SPEAKER_04: And it was it was a manual.
44:49
SPEAKER_04: It was a manual.
44:49
SPEAKER_04: It was a manual.
44:50
SPEAKER_04: It's like say it was in a 1990s movie.
44:52
SPEAKER_04: It introduced a young girl of about 13 of my age into Wiccan.
44:58
SPEAKER_04: And it was all these spells in there.
44:59
SPEAKER_04: And of course, you know, I tried them out with my friend.
45:02
SPEAKER_04: It all involved having to go to the pharmacy and buy colors, different colored candles.
45:07
SPEAKER_04: And I completely went about things like in a very superficial way.
45:12
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, in a such an inappropriate because I want to respect that Wiccan is a real religion.
45:18
SPEAKER_04: Right.
45:18
SPEAKER_04: But there's a very correct way to go about it where there are altars and you get actual herbs and you get the real.
45:25
SPEAKER_04: And I'm sure we have listeners right now, like, oh my god, these dumb idiots.
45:28
SPEAKER_04: Like it we want to hear from you if this is something that you are truly invested in and this is something you know a lot about of.
45:33
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
45:34
SPEAKER_04: I want to hear from you.
45:35
SPEAKER_04: I do believe in crystals.
45:36
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, crystals and gems.
45:38
SPEAKER_05: Us being in like Arizona, it's like if you know Arizona like well, like north of us is Sedona, and it's supposed to be this like spiritual vortex, right?
45:46
SPEAKER_05: And so it's funny because like I think you we we all go through different phases in our life, and I feel like once I kind of grew out of that phase as like a middle schooler, I was like, okay, well, you know, maybe I'm not like actually into these things as like as like a deep as I think, or there's people that are more into it than I am.
46:01
SPEAKER_05: Um, but I think coming out here has kind of like reconnected me to a few of those things.
46:07
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
46:07
SPEAKER_05: Because I'm like, I do want to go to Sedona.
46:09
SPEAKER_05: There is like definitely an energy there.
46:11
SPEAKER_05: You know, it is cool to like learn about these different, like, again, I don't know, just like different crystals and like different uh, you know, energizers that are supposed to like do certain things for you.
46:22
SPEAKER_05: And so it's like I've definitely collected them over time and like tried to figure out where in your house you should put certain things to like just like help the flow of energy.
46:31
SPEAKER_05: So it's like there's certain things that I definitely think are are are real to this world, you know.
46:36
SPEAKER_05: Again, the level in which you go about them, sure, but you know, we're in Arizona, we're a unique place.
46:41
SPEAKER_04: I just I I just started thinking how my my parents are potentially moving to Arizona.
46:50
SPEAKER_04: That's right, yeah.
46:51
SPEAKER_04: And they're not necessarily moving to Sedona, but close to Sedona and Prescott.
46:55
SPEAKER_04: Okay.
46:55
SPEAKER_04: And I'm starting to think like maybe it's like my mom is probably the last one to she she's Catholic, and she's probably the last one to um believe in all of that.
47:06
SPEAKER_04: And I haven't quite talked about this on the show yet, but my my mom's been battling breast cancer for the past year, and she's doing fine, she's doing great, very strong, she's very strong, resilient.
47:14
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, um, she got through chemo and radiation, and now I just like had this epiphany like maybe I need to take her to Sedona.
47:23
SPEAKER_04: Honestly.
47:23
SPEAKER_04: Maybe moving to Arizona and press cook.
47:26
SPEAKER_04: Like, I I feel like people have moved here to cure things like that.
47:29
SPEAKER_04: I feel like my mom is the type to not ever want to admit that that's something that like is her alter motivation or her alter intention.
47:38
SPEAKER_04: But now I'm like, Lisa, maybe that's why she's moving out here.
47:43
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, I don't know.
47:44
SPEAKER_04: You know what?
47:45
SPEAKER_04: There are weird things in the world that I think we cannot explain.
47:50
SPEAKER_04: And I think we're so attracted to the different witch trials, whether in Salem or London or Germany or all over the world, all over Europe, there were witch trials.
47:59
SPEAKER_04: Uh, in a way, I I do feel like witches are still ostracized ostracized.
48:03
SPEAKER_04: It's a very it's the unknown.
48:05
SPEAKER_04: And sure.
48:06
SPEAKER_04: It's it's just such a weird thing because there were people who were condemned and convicted and tried and executed who probably didn't have any of the things to do with that what they said.
48:17
SPEAKER_04: I I don't see it as a thing of like making a pack with Satan with dancing with devils in the middle of the night and out there to be seen as a vortex to to murder others and cause misfortune.
48:28
SPEAKER_04: Um but then I also wonder like back then, like there were so many confessions, and then there were people who were dabbling with healing and different strategies of I don't know, the whole thing is just I'm rambling.
48:42
SPEAKER_04: I know I'm rambling.
48:43
SPEAKER_04: I'm sorry.
48:43
SPEAKER_04: I I'm in a rambling mode, but I I it's just mysterious.
48:46
SPEAKER_04: All of it is mysterious to me.
48:48
SPEAKER_05: And I think once you hear about those things too, like I'm sure there are people that picked up this slim book that King James I wrote and were like, oh, demonology, like what's that?
48:57
SPEAKER_05: You know what I mean?
48:58
SPEAKER_05: Maybe it even piqued some people's interest into it.
49:01
SPEAKER_04: I think I I absolutely agree.
49:03
SPEAKER_04: I think his book did more harm than good because it was it was putting a spotlight onto something that if it was truly that much of a problem, like it could it could die away, you know, but don't don't like make it blame the situation.
49:17
SPEAKER_04: Exactly.
49:18
SPEAKER_04: Right.
49:18
SPEAKER_04: He highlighted it and he said, look for this.
49:21
SPEAKER_04: Yeah.
49:21
SPEAKER_04: Then everyone was looking for it.
49:23
SPEAKER_04: Yeah, it's fascinating.
49:24
SPEAKER_04: The whole the whole thing is fascinating.
49:26
SPEAKER_04: And I love Elizabeth Sawyer because out of all of these 80,000 plus people, for whatever reason, she stood out.
49:33
SPEAKER_05: Yeah.
49:34
SPEAKER_04: She we we don't have much more about like, I suppose there was a play.
49:39
SPEAKER_04: There's a play.
49:40
SPEAKER_05: There's a lot about her.
49:42
SPEAKER_05: There's like one photo, not photo, but like sketch of her.
49:45
SPEAKER_04: There's a sketch of her, which is very rare though, for any woman of that time to even have their name put down in history and be known as right, I don't know, maybe a witch, but she made a name for herself.
49:57
SPEAKER_02: She did make a name for her.
49:58
SPEAKER_02: One way or the other.
50:00
SPEAKER_05: Um, so yeah, let us know your thoughts on all of this.
50:03
SPEAKER_05: If there's any other witch uh stories you would like to see, especially because obviously we mentioned this during our Salem Witch episode too, but it's like we've only covered, what, four executions from Salem and now one from the London uh witch trials.
50:17
SPEAKER_05: So it's like that there's plenty more out there.
50:19
SPEAKER_05: So you guys tell us your favorites and what we want to cover and any information that you have to make it a little more spicey.
50:26
SPEAKER_05: Speci.
50:27
SPEAKER_05: Speci.
50:28
SPEAKER_05: Speciwitch.
50:30
SPEAKER_05: Hot witch.
50:31
SPEAKER_05: Exactly.
50:32
SPEAKER_04: Which witch who has a good sandwich.
50:34
SPEAKER_05: Which witch.
50:34
SPEAKER_05: And uh we're gonna go take a look at my moon spells book now because I think we've got a good moon out there.
50:40
SPEAKER_05: Let's go do some spells.
50:42
SPEAKER_05: Yeah, I have a cool book, I'll show you.
50:44
SPEAKER_04: Any final words?
50:47
SPEAKER_04: Not today.
50:48
SPEAKER_04: No, you're supposed to go Wingardium Leviosa.
50:51
SPEAKER_05: That's not a good one.
50:52
SPEAKER_05: Give me a better spell.
50:53
SPEAKER_05: Avaracadavra.
50:54
SPEAKER_05: Not that one.
50:55
SPEAKER_05: I don't do I don't do the three unforgivable curses.