Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / NAVY WIFE IN FREEZER, medical examiner stumped

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NAVY WIFE IN FREEZER, medical examiner stumped · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

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  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. A body turns up in
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  Speaker 1: the San Diego Bay is part of a very long
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: mystery Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, A big mystery. Tonight
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  Speaker 1: in the waters of San Diego Bay, police found a
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  Speaker 1: woman's body on the shore of the Liberty Station Channel.
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  Speaker 1: NBC seven's Dave Summers is there with what might make
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  Speaker 1: this investigation quite challenging? Dave, Yeah, Well, and the channel
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  Speaker 1: runs along NTC Park mark in Catherine. It's a popular
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  Speaker 1: spot to walk your dog, cycle, play soccer, just about
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  Speaker 1: anything outdoors. But San Diego police were hold here on
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  Speaker 1: a grizzly aaron. A woman's body was found in the
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  Speaker 1: water behind me. Guys, the area where this body is found,
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  Speaker 1: San Diego Bay is vast. Can you imagine a jogger
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  Speaker 1: or someone walking their dogs suddenly seeing a body turn up?
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  Speaker 1: With me an all star panel to help dissect what
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  Speaker 1: we know. Matthew Mangino, attorney, former District attorney, author of
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  Speaker 1: The Executioner's Toll. Doctor Michael B. Donner, psychoanalyst, clinical forensics psychologist,
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  Speaker 1: and authoroff Tearing the Child Apart, and you can find
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  Speaker 1: him at Michael B. Donner dot com. Karen Smith, forensics
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  Speaker 1: expert host of Shattershol's podcast, and you can find her
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  Speaker 1: a bear Bones Forensic dot Com deputy medical examiner. I
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  Speaker 1: believe that's Deputy Chief Medical Examiner for Travis County, Texas.
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  Speaker 1: That's Austin doctor Kendall Crowns. But first to crime online
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  Speaker 1: dot Com investigator Levi Page, LEVI, hold on one moment,
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  Speaker 1: you were just sharing our friend Dave Summers at NBC
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  Speaker 1: seven in San Diego, take a listen again. San Diego
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  Speaker 1: Police and Harbor Police began investigating just after four o'clock today.
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  Speaker 1: Busy time here with plenty of park visitors because of
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  Speaker 1: the slope of the bank, though the woman's body was
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  Speaker 1: not easily seen. Now, homicide detectives were not summoned, but
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  Speaker 1: that shouldn't rule out the possibility of foul play just yet.
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  Speaker 1: An investigator on scene tells a NBC seven the woman's
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  Speaker 1: body was badly decomposed, that she had been dead for
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  Speaker 1: some time, and identifying the cause of death and her
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  Speaker 1: identity could be challenging. Straight out to Deputy Chief and
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  Speaker 1: medical Examiner in Travis County, Texas, is doctor Kendall Crowns.
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  Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, when a body has been into water for
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  Speaker 1: let's just say a week. Let's start with the day
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  Speaker 1: versus a week, versus a month versus a year, what
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  Speaker 1: happens to the body. As far as figuring out who
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  Speaker 1: it is the bodies in the water, you're going to
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  Speaker 1: get decomposition rates that are a little altered depending on
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  Speaker 1: the temperature of the water. It's the water's colder, it'll
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  Speaker 1: slow the decomposition down. If it's warmer, it will speed
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  Speaker 1: it up. But the other thing you get is scavaging
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  Speaker 1: by the aquatic creatures like turtles and fish and things
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  Speaker 1: of that nature. So you can still determine what the
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  Speaker 1: entries were if enough of the bodies left intact, but
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  Speaker 1: you will see significant scavaging and increased decomposition rates, especially
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  Speaker 1: in warm water. You know, this bay is around twelve
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  Speaker 1: miles long and three miles wide at certain locations. That's
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  Speaker 1: a very very tough let me just say, I want
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  Speaker 1: to call it terrain. But circumstances under which to search
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  Speaker 1: or is there another victim? Is there a child victim?
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  Speaker 1: Are there items in the water that could identify this woman?
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  Speaker 1: Straight back to levipage crime online dot Com investigative reporter Levi,
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  Speaker 1: what do you know about the discovery they could obviously
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  Speaker 1: tell it was a woman body December seventh, twenty sixteen,
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  Speaker 1: and that is what appears to be a woman's body
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  Speaker 1: is found on the shore of San Diego Bay and
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  Speaker 1: the body has been in a state of decomposing. It
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  Speaker 1: had been decomposing, and they were unable to identify who
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  Speaker 1: it was when it washed ashore because it had been decomposing,
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  Speaker 1: but they could tell it was a woman. To doctor
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  Speaker 1: Kennel Crowns, how long would it take for the body
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  Speaker 1: to be so decomposed you can't even tell who it is. Again,
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  Speaker 1: that would depend on the temperature of the water, but
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  Speaker 1: it could take several weeks to the point that you
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  Speaker 1: can't readily identify them, to the point that you would
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  Speaker 1: have to go with dental records and DNA, especially if
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  Speaker 1: there's an increased scabbath your activity, it'll quickly obscure people's faces.
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  Speaker 1: You know, you're putting that very delicately. Thank you, guys.
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  Speaker 1: We're talking about the se San Diego Bay and a
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  Speaker 1: body washing up. The first thing they know is that
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  Speaker 1: it's a woman. That's all they can tell. The body
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  Speaker 1: is so decomposed. Now, let's think about where we are
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  Speaker 1: San Diego Bay. It's in a very highly urbanized area
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  Speaker 1: sex to San Diego, which is the ninth largest city
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  Speaker 1: in the US, if I'm correct on that. So this
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  Speaker 1: could be anybody. And another issue to Karen Smith, forensics expert, Karen,
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  Speaker 1: that's just San Diego. What if the body were a
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  Speaker 1: dumped somewhere off a bridge and it's not even someone
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  Speaker 1: missing from San Diego, that really complicates identifying the victim. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: it does. I mean two hours from Los Angeles, twelve
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  Speaker 1: million to one, I mean, yeah, it could be anybody, Nancy,
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  Speaker 1: And you don't know how this woman's body got in
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  Speaker 1: the water, you know, was it an accidental death, was
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  Speaker 1: it a homicide? We don't know. And until the medical
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  Speaker 1: examiner can hopefully find an evidence of cause and manner
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  Speaker 1: of the detectives at that point had to make identification
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  Speaker 1: and then wait for the information. What about currents in
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  Speaker 1: a bay that bay? We typically think, Karen, of currents
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  Speaker 1: being in the ocean, but in a bay that big,
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  Speaker 1: or for instance, in one of the great lakes. I
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  Speaker 1: remember seeing waves coming in off of a great lake,
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  Speaker 1: and I can understand how there can be waves in
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  Speaker 1: a lake, but in a body of water that big,
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  Speaker 1: you have waves, so we don't even know if that's
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  Speaker 1: where she was dumped because of the water's motion. That's right.
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  Speaker 1: I mean the Saint John's River ran right through Jacksonville,
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  Speaker 1: and believe me, when we would get a large storm,
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  Speaker 1: that water would wash over the sea walls. It was
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  Speaker 1: really torrential and really high waves, and that water would
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  Speaker 1: move very fast. So just because it's a bay, it
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  Speaker 1: doesn't mean the water's not moving. And sometimes it can
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  Speaker 1: move very quickly and depending on the current, the direction,
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  Speaker 1: which way it was going, it can give them to
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  Speaker 1: some information. But it's still really really difficult to figure
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  Speaker 1: out where that body entered the water, and you have
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  Speaker 1: to start from the endpoint where you found it to
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  Speaker 1: form a prosecutor. Now defense attorney Matthew Mangino, author of
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  Speaker 1: The Executioner's Toll, The Crimes or As Trials, Appeals, Last Meals,
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  Speaker 1: Final Awards, and executions forty six persons in the US.
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  Speaker 1: That's a mouthful, doctor. Excuse me, Matthew Mangino, As a
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  Speaker 1: an attorney, did you ever as a prosecutor, did you
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  Speaker 1: ever have to prosecute a jang do where you did
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  Speaker 1: not know the victim or her identity. Well, yes, I
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  Speaker 1: mean that's an unfortunate part of the job that you
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  Speaker 1: deal with, you know, missing persons and persons that you
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  Speaker 1: can't identify. You know. Here in this case, you know,
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  Speaker 1: we don't know what we have. We have a woman
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  Speaker 1: whose body's found in the bay. We don't know if
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  Speaker 1: her death was accidental, if her death was a side
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  Speaker 1: or if there's anything, uh, you know, suspicious about her death.
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  Speaker 1: Certainly it's a tragedy. Certainly, White A minute, White, A
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  Speaker 1: minute White, a minute, hold on, Matthew Mangino. When you
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  Speaker 1: find a woman washing up, dead, decomposed, so you can't
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  Speaker 1: identify her right there, I would say that suspicious. So
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  Speaker 1: I don't know what you mean by you got to
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  Speaker 1: figure out if it's suspicious. It's suspicious, Matthew. Oh no,
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  Speaker 1: there's no question. Are you trying to say you don't
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  Speaker 1: know if it's a suicide or a homicide, Well, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I mean or an accidentally don't know if there's foul play,
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  Speaker 1: you know, that's that's the fundamental the question here was
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  Speaker 1: her death, Was it a suicide? Was it accidental that
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  Speaker 1: she did she fall into the bay, or you know,
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  Speaker 1: was she murdered. Those those are the three questions that
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  Speaker 1: have to be reviewed immediately in a decision. May well,
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  Speaker 1: I agree, But when you said you got to figure
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  Speaker 1: out if it's suspicious if I find a dead body,
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  Speaker 1: I'm suspicious. I'm naturally suspicious. I think anybody would be
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  Speaker 1: suspicious when you find a dead body. But you're right,
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  Speaker 1: there's only three things suicide, homicide or accident. So yes,
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  Speaker 1: you got to determine that. And back to you, doctor Kendall.
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  Speaker 1: Crown's joining us out of Austin with a body this decompose,
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  Speaker 1: how do you figure out which one of those three
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  Speaker 1: choices it is? So what you would look if you
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  Speaker 1: have enough of the body left that you can still
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  Speaker 1: look for injuries, you would then look at the injuries
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  Speaker 1: and determined if you felt that they were accidental in
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  Speaker 1: nature or suicide or homicide. So it would just depend
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  Speaker 1: on what injuries are found on the body. Let's see,
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  Speaker 1: if someone who jumped to the water from a ledge,
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  Speaker 1: you wouldn't necessarily find any injuries, so it would be
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  Speaker 1: consistent with a drowning, and it could end up being
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  Speaker 1: determined undetermined if you can't differentiate the injuries. It would
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  Speaker 1: just depend on the injury pattern as how you would
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  Speaker 1: determine the manner of death of this particular case. Crime
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  Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. Guys, we are talking about a
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  Speaker 1: body that washes up on the shores of the San
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  Speaker 1: Diego Bay nine or ten miles long, about three miles
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  Speaker 1: wide at points. That is a huge body of water.
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  Speaker 1: And as I said earlier, it's next to a very
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  Speaker 1: highly urbanized area of San Diego. So this woman could
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  Speaker 1: be anybody. Back to you, doctor Kennel Crowns joining us
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  Speaker 1: out of Austin. Doctor Crown's question, So you look at
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  Speaker 1: the body. The body is decomposed. You can't even tell
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  Speaker 1: who it is. So I guess you're going to have
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  Speaker 1: to use DNA or you're gonna have to use dental records.
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  Speaker 1: Which one of those do you do first? So first
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  Speaker 1: you start with fingerprints. If you can still get a
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  Speaker 1: fingerprint off above, you will you will use that. Actually,
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  Speaker 1: you can still get a fingerprint from a lot of
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  Speaker 1: decomposed bodies. After fingerprints, then you go with a dental
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  Speaker 1: Which finger do you try first? Doctor? Actually thumb dumb ah, Okay,
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  Speaker 1: didn't know that. Go ahead, and well, actually the skin
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  Speaker 1: will be the glove at decompositions, it'll come off like
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  Speaker 1: a glove and then you can actually put it on
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  Speaker 1: your own hand and get the fingerprints from that. But
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  Speaker 1: once the fingerprint option is out, then you go to right,
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  Speaker 1: what did you just say? So? What did you say?
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  Speaker 1: So when your skin, when you decompose, your epidermis or
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  Speaker 1: the upper layer of your skin comes off, and you
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  Speaker 1: can actually take that upper layer of skin off the
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  Speaker 1: hand and then put it on your own hand and
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  Speaker 1: then get fingerprints that way because you can just get
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  Speaker 1: it from the epidermal layer of the skin. Okay, right there,
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  Speaker 1: let me just drink that in for a moment. So
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  Speaker 1: you take the skin off their thumb, you put it
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  Speaker 1: on your thumb, and then do a finger print. Yeah,
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  Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure, are you sure? Well? I have because
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  Speaker 1: I've never heard that in my life, and it's really
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  Speaker 1: skiving me out. Even I can get skiped out about
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  Speaker 1: criminal investigations. It is something we do. I have pictures
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  Speaker 1: which you'd like to see. Yes, as a matter of fact,
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  Speaker 1: I would, because I'm not sure I'm really buying your
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  Speaker 1: whole story. But okay, so you start with fingerprints, then
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  Speaker 1: what do you do next? Dental records or DNA once
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  Speaker 1: fingerprints are out. Oh and by the way, I do
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  Speaker 1: know what I'm doing, right, But anyway, once fingerprints are out,
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  Speaker 1: you move on to dental records. If you have a
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  Speaker 1: presumptive ID, then you can get the dental records of
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  Speaker 1: that individual and make comparisons. After that, if they have
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  Speaker 1: any medical devices, you can use those to look for
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  Speaker 1: serial numbers. And then after you exhaust all those possibilities,
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  Speaker 1: we move on to DNA, which you can get from
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  Speaker 1: a tooth or a fragment of bones specifically usually the
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  Speaker 1: steamer or a rib, and then we'll send those to
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  Speaker 1: Stay crime lad to DONA matches. A femur is the
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: long part of the leg below the knee above the
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  Speaker 1: knee to me, what's below the name to be Okay,
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  Speaker 1: So you start with trying to get a fingerprint, then
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  Speaker 1: you go to dental dental, then you try DNA, which
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  Speaker 1: can take longer. So if this person doesn't have a
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  Speaker 1: record and their DNA is not in the DNA database, yeah,
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  Speaker 1: you have to have a presumptive and they never have
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  Speaker 1: been to the dentist. You're just up the creek without
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  Speaker 1: a paddle, right, That's correct. When in those cases, if
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  Speaker 1: we have no idea who they are. It just ends
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  Speaker 1: up and being they've become unidentified. You know, we're kind
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  Speaker 1: of talking inside baseball here, but Karen Smith, just to
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  Speaker 1: continue doing it. Um, have you ever handled a Jane
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  Speaker 1: Doe where you never knew the woman's identity? Yes? Initially, yes,
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  Speaker 1: and it took some time to get that part, I
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  Speaker 1: mean all the way through. No. No, I never had
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  Speaker 1: a murder case where we ever knew the woman's identity.
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  Speaker 1: That is so hard to crack a case like that
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  Speaker 1: because hey, you don't know who what her identity is,
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  Speaker 1: so you don't know her friends, you don't know where
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  Speaker 1: she was last I'm referring to a woman I found.
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  Speaker 1: I didn't find her, it was reported then I went there.
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  Speaker 1: She was dumped out in a field. As she remains
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  Speaker 1: a Jane Doe to this day. I had to prosecute
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  Speaker 1: a guy never knew how the who the victim was. Wow,
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  Speaker 1: it's never very upsetting, Karen, very upsetting. Absolutely, it's heartbreaking
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  Speaker 1: because you know, the one thing that you want to
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  Speaker 1: do is return that victim to their family, and you
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  Speaker 1: can't if you don't know who they are. Guys, we
• 14:35
  Speaker 1: were talking about a body that washes up on San
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  Speaker 1: Diego Bay. Sure back to you levipage Climb online dot
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  Speaker 1: com investigative reporter, Exactly how was the woman's body found?
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  Speaker 1: It washed ashore and people called nine one one that
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  Speaker 1: saw it and feel like joggers or people walking by. Yes,
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  Speaker 1: and employees came on the scene and discovered this decomposing body.
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  Speaker 1: We are talking about a woman's body that washes ashore.
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  Speaker 1: She's a Jane Doe. Doesn't it make you wonder? Is
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  Speaker 1: there a husband? Is there a family? Are there children
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  Speaker 1: out there or her mom and dad looking for her?
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  Speaker 1: Who could she possibly be? Well? We get at least
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  Speaker 1: one answer in this case. Take a listen to our
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  Speaker 1: friends at crime online dot com. Elizabeth Sullivan's decomposing body
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  Speaker 1: was found just a half mile from her home, floating
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  Speaker 1: in the San Diego Bay. She'd been missing for two years,
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  Speaker 1: but a former San Diego County Deputy medical examiner who
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  Speaker 1: helped conduct the autopsy says decomposition made it difficult to
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  Speaker 1: narrow down her time of death. It also led to
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  Speaker 1: another conclusion. The medical examiner did not believe that Elizabeth
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  Speaker 1: had been in the bay for the two years she
• 15:47
  Speaker 1: was missing. He said the decomposition would have been more advanced.
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  Speaker 1: The autopsy showed that Elizabeth's body was decomposing in a
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  Speaker 1: way that indicated she had lain for some time. On
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  Speaker 1: one side, Sullivan was identified through dental records by to
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  Speaker 1: you doctor Kendall Crowns, Deputy Chief Medical examer Joinings of Austin.
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  Speaker 1: What does that mean? Our friends at crime Online just
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  Speaker 1: gave a really weird twist to this case. What are
• 16:14
  Speaker 1: they trying to say? What they're trying to say is
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  Speaker 1: basically that if she's been missing, if they've identified an
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  Speaker 1: individual who's been missing for two years, but the body's
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  Speaker 1: still intact to the point that they're not skelet knize
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  Speaker 1: a two years floating around of the water, I mean
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  Speaker 1: they should have been a minimum skelet knize and probably
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  Speaker 1: not able to be found. And the fact that she
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: washed up means that she was pretty intact. So what
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  Speaker 1: is being said there's not it's incongruous with the amount
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  Speaker 1: of time she's been missing and the amount of decomposition
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  Speaker 1: that has seen. There's some intervening factor that either she
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  Speaker 1: was alive during the time period she was missing, or
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  Speaker 1: something else has happened that caused her not to be
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  Speaker 1: composed as much. I don't know how they can tell
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  Speaker 1: all that from looking at the body, but that is
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  Speaker 1: what we are that's the information that we're given. We
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  Speaker 1: are told that the medical examiner that first looks at
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  Speaker 1: the body does not believe that she has been in
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  Speaker 1: the water the entire time. So what does that mean? Guys?
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  Speaker 1: We're trying to figure out who is Elizabeth Sullivan and
• 17:24
  Speaker 1: how has the medical examiner come to the decision she
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  Speaker 1: was not in the water the entire time she's been missing. Obviously,
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: they find out information about her. Take a listen. Matthew
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  Speaker 1: and Elizabeth Sullivan meet in Virginia. That's where Elizabeth grew
• 17:40
  Speaker 1: up and where Matthew Sullivan was stationed in the Navy.
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  Speaker 1: In twenty ten. They get married and moved to San
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  Speaker 1: Diego after Matthew's transferred. The couple have two children, daughters,
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  Speaker 1: two years apart. Matthew serves eight years in the US
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  Speaker 1: Navy and is honorably discharged in twenty sixteen with the
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  Speaker 1: rank of Petty Officer. Now we know who she is,
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  Speaker 1: so back to you, Lee by Page Crime online dot
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  Speaker 1: Com investigative reporter. We now know that she moved around
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  Speaker 1: with her husband, who has been in the Navy. They
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  Speaker 1: get married, they moved to San Diego after he Matthew
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  Speaker 1: gets transferred. They have two children, daughters, two years apart,
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  Speaker 1: and somewhere between learning that and the day her body
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  Speaker 1: is discovered, everything seemingly is a big blank Crime Stories
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  Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. Guys, thank you for being with us
• 18:40
  Speaker 1: here at Crime Stories. A body washes ashore at San
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  Speaker 1: Diego Bay. For a while, she's Jane Doe until somehow, miraculously,
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: through methods that have been outlined by Deputy Chief Medical
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  Speaker 1: Examiner out of Austin doctor Kennel Crown's, we figure out
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  Speaker 1: her name is elizabe but Sullivan, and somewhere out there
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  Speaker 1: she's got two daughters and a husband. Let's digest what
• 19:07
  Speaker 1: we have just heard to Leavi Page, brand new developments
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: in a search for a navy wife Elizabeth Sullivan. According
• 19:14
  Speaker 1: to search for Elizabeth go Fummie Page, she was in
• 19:19
  Speaker 1: touch with her father every single day and then suddenly
• 19:22
  Speaker 1: just seemingly dropped off the map. What do we know,
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: Levi Page, Yeah, we know that a friend called police
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  Speaker 1: and said I haven't heard from her. I'm worried about her.
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  Speaker 1: She's missing. This search is kicked off, and police say
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: that the vehicle that she drives was still at the
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  Speaker 1: home with the family, but her cell phone was nowhere
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  Speaker 1: to be found and it was turned off. So immediately
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: things were a little bit suspicious. So you're telling me
• 19:50
  Speaker 1: that cell phone didn't just go missing, that it was
• 19:52
  Speaker 1: turned off. It was turned off, So to Matthew Mangino,
• 19:56
  Speaker 1: former prosecutor and now author, Matthew that means either somebody
• 20:01
  Speaker 1: turned it off or she turned it off herself. Well, right,
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: clue does that give us? Well, it really doesn't give
• 20:11
  Speaker 1: us much of a clue other than the fact that
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: that we know, um, that she's not having any contact
• 20:17
  Speaker 1: with anyone um, you know, and that's unusual. I mean,
• 20:21
  Speaker 1: you know, cell phones or something that we rely very
• 20:24
  Speaker 1: heavily on and to just have a cell phone go
• 20:27
  Speaker 1: dead and not have any further communication on that is
• 20:31
  Speaker 1: obviously suspicious. And you know, she hasn't been seen, she
• 20:35
  Speaker 1: hasn't no one's heard from her, her cell phone is
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: not being used. Those are unusual at unusual conduct for
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: for a young woman. Well, we also have evidence of
• 20:45
  Speaker 1: behavior or routine to Michael doctor Michael B. Donner, psychoanalyst,
• 20:50
  Speaker 1: UM doctor Donner. For instance, they say, here she spoke
• 20:55
  Speaker 1: to her father every single day and then suddenly either
• 20:58
  Speaker 1: blue that just stopped and she was reported missing. So
• 21:02
  Speaker 1: I find that very very strong behavioral evidence. Explain, it's
• 21:08
  Speaker 1: very worrisome, Nancy. When somebody has a strong relationship with
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: a family member of friend and then disappear, family is
• 21:15
  Speaker 1: going to be very worried, and it's a sign of configuring.
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: It's sign of considerable concern. You put it so delicately,
• 21:22
  Speaker 1: you're quite the master of euphemism. I say, it's a
• 21:25
  Speaker 1: sign that something stinks, something has gone horribly wrong. To you,
• 21:32
  Speaker 1: Karen L. Smith, forensics expert, I know you deal with
• 21:36
  Speaker 1: let me say, physical forensics, blood spatter or fingerprints, fibers, hair,
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: all sorts of DNA, But what about behavioral evidence. That's
• 21:49
  Speaker 1: part of a police officer's job, Nancy. You know, we
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: deal with psychological stuff all the time. We have to
• 21:55
  Speaker 1: get into the mind of people and figure out not
• 21:57
  Speaker 1: only victimology, but if anything happened, we have to figure
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: out what the motivation behind that was. And to me,
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: when you have a cell phone that has used every
• 22:06
  Speaker 1: single day that all of a sudden is now turned off,
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: that starts some kind of a timeline. For me, that's
• 22:13
  Speaker 1: what that tells me. It's a start of some kind
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: of a timeline. You know what's interesting, almost laughable. We
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: were not talking about trying to identify a body, and
• 22:22
  Speaker 1: when Elizabeth went missing. Behavioral evidence is even proven through animals.
• 22:28
  Speaker 1: I know you all remember the Orenthal James O. J.
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: Simpson double murder trial where the state actually started their
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: timeline the night of the double murder with the quote
• 22:43
  Speaker 1: plaintiff well of the dog, the pet belonging to Denise Brown.
• 22:52
  Speaker 1: I think the dog's name was Akita. The neighbors had
• 22:55
  Speaker 1: never heard that before, and I think it was there
• 22:58
  Speaker 1: in Brentwood, had never heard that before, and they all
• 23:03
  Speaker 1: knew the dog. The dog got walked, it got taken
• 23:07
  Speaker 1: everywhere by Denise and her children, so they knew Akita,
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: and when they heard that sound, it was so unusual,
• 23:15
  Speaker 1: such odd behavior for the dog. That really began the
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: timeline for many legal eagles. The night that Denise Brandon,
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: Ron Goldman or were brutally murdered by Simpson, that start
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: of the timeline. So if you can count on the
• 23:31
  Speaker 1: behavior of a dog, of course, you can count on
• 23:34
  Speaker 1: the behavior of a grown woman and mother, and from
• 23:39
  Speaker 1: what I'm understanding to leave a page, there were no
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: prior indications that she suffered any emotional or mental disturbances.
• 23:46
  Speaker 1: Is that correct? You're correct, Nancy. So what about the husband?
• 23:53
  Speaker 1: This guy apparently is really taking it hard. Take a
• 23:56
  Speaker 1: listen now to Steve helling at people that he's lost
• 24:00
  Speaker 1: twenty five pounds, he's you know, not eating, he's not sleeping,
• 24:04
  Speaker 1: and for a while he wasn't working, and then he
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: finally decided that he would go back to work just
• 24:10
  Speaker 1: to give him himself some normalcy and also to give
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: some normalcy to their daughters as well well. And we
• 24:16
  Speaker 1: mentioned that family members are coming to San Diego, that
• 24:19
  Speaker 1: he must be holding out hope along with the rest
• 24:21
  Speaker 1: of the family. Yes, everybody's holding out hope. You know,
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: it's just it's been a month, so obviously they're putting
• 24:28
  Speaker 1: a brave face on it, but everybody's very worried. You know,
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: somebody who's gone for a month, a mother of children.
• 24:35
  Speaker 1: That's a scary situation. It's so scary. What does he
• 24:37
  Speaker 1: say about their daughters? They're so young too, at four
• 24:40
  Speaker 1: years old. Did they understand what's going on here? At
• 24:42
  Speaker 1: all not exactly. They don't exactly know what's happening, but
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: they still are giving them some counseling right now, you know,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: and trying to work through it. They're just confused, they're
• 24:52
  Speaker 1: they're little little girls. So that makes this a lot
• 24:56
  Speaker 1: more heartrending than it would have been otherwise. Joining us
• 24:59
  Speaker 1: is doctor Michael be Donna, or psychoanalyst, and you can
• 25:04
  Speaker 1: find him at Michael Dona dot com. These children were
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: so little a mommy goes missing. What effect does that
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: have on them? And we keep hearing as our friends
• 25:17
  Speaker 1: Steve hell Are from People magazine said they were confused,
• 25:20
  Speaker 1: they didn't know what was going on. How does that
• 25:22
  Speaker 1: affect a child to grow up without their mother? Well,
• 25:25
  Speaker 1: when young children lose a parent, especially a mother, there
• 25:29
  Speaker 1: are going to be some very significant attachment issues. That
• 25:33
  Speaker 1: children rely on their mothers for safety and security, for
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: psychological stability, and when our mother just disappears, it's going
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: to be terrifying for the child because they don't really
• 25:44
  Speaker 1: have the capacity to understand what happened. You can't explain
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: it to them. They just know that someone that they
• 25:50
  Speaker 1: relied on, needed for their physical and emotional needs is
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: just gone, like in the blink of an eye. It's
• 25:57
  Speaker 1: very distressing and very disturbing and has lifelong effects. I
• 26:01
  Speaker 1: was just going to ask you that, how does that
• 26:02
  Speaker 1: affect a child as they grow up. Well, it'll have
• 26:05
  Speaker 1: an effect on their ability to form relationships and attachments.
• 26:08
  Speaker 1: Not in every single child, but on many. It'll be
• 26:10
  Speaker 1: a challenge for them because they won't feel safe. They
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: won't have the same kind of trust and security that
• 26:17
  Speaker 1: a loved one will be there for them, so they're
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: they're going to tend to be a little bit more suspicious.
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: Of course, it creates psychological difficulties in childhood and adolescents
• 26:26
  Speaker 1: when they're going to be more likely to use substances,
• 26:30
  Speaker 1: get into difficult and sometimes even abusive relationships because the
• 26:35
  Speaker 1: nature of their internal world has been shaken and the
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: world just doesn't feel safe to them anymore. So I guess,
• 26:44
  Speaker 1: to put it simply, it haunts them the rest of
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: their lives. I've noticed that it seems to affect children
• 26:53
  Speaker 1: more when they lose their mother. Why is that in
• 26:57
  Speaker 1: most families the mother is the what we call the
• 27:00
  Speaker 1: primary attachment to figure, the primary caregiver, So the mother
• 27:05
  Speaker 1: especially again, this is in most families not all, but
• 27:08
  Speaker 1: in most the mother is the person that does the
• 27:12
  Speaker 1: majority of the caretaking of children and has the primary
• 27:16
  Speaker 1: bond and attachment for the child. The fathers are important
• 27:20
  Speaker 1: or the other parents are important too, but they are
• 27:22
  Speaker 1: generally sort of more likely to be introducing the child
• 27:27
  Speaker 1: to the outside world, where the mother's role is the
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: psychological and physical development of the child in the very early,
• 27:35
  Speaker 1: most critical stages of well. I understand that those roles
• 27:38
  Speaker 1: easily can shift depending on circumstances, But I see what
• 27:41
  Speaker 1: you're saying. Time Stories with Nancy Grace. So this woman
• 28:00
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Sullivan as a Jane Doe. Then she's identified, and
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: then we find out she is a mother, a husband,
• 28:08
  Speaker 1: losing down to losing twenty five pounds during the search.
• 28:13
  Speaker 1: Take a listen now to CBS eight San Diego. When
• 28:17
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth Sullivan went missing in October twenty fourteen, no one
• 28:21
  Speaker 1: knew what happened to her. Did she run away or
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: was it something worse? Our Missing Persons She Unit did
• 28:27
  Speaker 1: an extensive investigation trying to find her find out what
• 28:31
  Speaker 1: happened with her, with negative results. Nearly two years later,
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: on October fourth, twenty sixteen, police found a human body
• 28:41
  Speaker 1: in the San Diego Bay. We went out there as
• 28:44
  Speaker 1: dead body. It was in a state of decomposition. Through
• 28:48
  Speaker 1: obviously forensically, we were able to eventually identify the body
• 28:52
  Speaker 1: as that of Elizabeth Sullivan. It was just a few
• 28:55
  Speaker 1: blocks from where Sullivan lived and police now suspect foul play.
• 28:59
  Speaker 1: We believe she was murdered. And I can't get into
• 29:01
  Speaker 1: details on a why belie. We believe that it's an
• 29:03
  Speaker 1: important part of our ongoing investigation. You know, it just
• 29:06
  Speaker 1: strikes me right there at the beginning to doctor Kendall Crowns,
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: and I'm going to ask you. This is the Deputy
• 29:13
  Speaker 1: Chief Medical Alexander and joining us from Travis County, Texas Austin.
• 29:17
  Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, this is beyond your expertise in performing thousands
• 29:22
  Speaker 1: of autopsies in your medical degree. But this immediately reminds
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: me I've taught mom Casey Anthony, where two year old
• 29:30
  Speaker 1: Kelly was found about nine houses down from the Anthony
• 29:34
  Speaker 1: family home. It reminds me of the Bonnie Lee Bakeley murder,
• 29:40
  Speaker 1: where Bonnie Lee Bakeley, who many believe was murdered by
• 29:45
  Speaker 1: movie star Robert Blake, was found right there where Blake
• 29:51
  Speaker 1: left her at an Italian restaurant, Votelo's, when he went
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: in to go retrieve the gun he lost, and then
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: the murder weapon was found in a dumpster a block
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: or two away. In other words, convenience for the killer.
• 30:09
  Speaker 1: The body here is found very near the family home.
• 30:15
  Speaker 1: How often do you see that, doctor Kendall Crown, Oh, yeah,
• 30:18
  Speaker 1: it's quite often. Usually when someone arders someone, they don't
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: go to a lot of effort to take the body
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: somewhere far from their home or to dump it or
• 30:29
  Speaker 1: dispose of it. It's very rarely that we see in
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: homicides where they'll cut the body up and then distribute
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: the pieces all over the place so people can't find
• 30:39
  Speaker 1: them are identifying. Its very rare. Usually most murderers are
• 30:44
  Speaker 1: fairly lazy, and they either dump the body close to
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: where they live or just leave it at the scene. Guys,
• 30:50
  Speaker 1: now we realize, as we're trying to find out who
• 30:52
  Speaker 1: this woman is, she's been missing for two years, but
• 30:57
  Speaker 1: her home is very near the spot or her body
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: washes as shure. What does that tell you forensically, Kieran Smith,
• 31:06
  Speaker 1: It tells me that, I mean, something happened within that
• 31:10
  Speaker 1: very confined area, nanthonyam in this, you know it's not
• 31:14
  Speaker 1: rocket science. You always look at the people's clothest to
• 31:17
  Speaker 1: a victim first. And the fact that she would sound
• 31:20
  Speaker 1: so close to home, I mean, as an investigator, to
• 31:23
  Speaker 1: her own neighborhood. Yeah, that just leads me right to
• 31:26
  Speaker 1: the house as my primary place to start looking for evidence.
• 31:30
  Speaker 1: Take a listen to tie or hunt Hey crime Online.
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: Investigators conduct a thorough search of the home. Forensic tests
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: find Elizabeth Sullivan's blood soaked in the wooden floor in
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: her bedroom and in the carpeting. A knife found in
• 31:42
  Speaker 1: the attic also has traces of Sullivan's blood. Matthew Sullivan
• 31:46
  Speaker 1: says the blood in the carpet is a result of
• 31:47
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth's self harming, and that she was also likely the
• 31:50
  Speaker 1: one who hid the knife. However, another major clue a
• 31:53
  Speaker 1: police could averdog reacts to a spot in the Sullivan
• 31:56
  Speaker 1: garage where a refrigerator freezer had stood for several years.
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: Did you hear that a refrigerator freezer. It's all starting
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: to fit together. How this woman was dumped in San
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: Diego Bay. She's been missing two years, but at the
• 32:17
  Speaker 1: first moment the medical examiner sees her She says, this
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: woman has not been in the water for two years,
• 32:25
  Speaker 1: so where has she been? To doctor Kendall, Crown's Deputy
• 32:29
  Speaker 1: Chief Medical exam Er Austin, how can you tell if
• 32:35
  Speaker 1: a dead body has ever been frozen? It's actually something
• 32:39
  Speaker 1: that you can't really tell on the body. You might
• 32:43
  Speaker 1: get a bit of a reddish change to the skin
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: coloration if they've been frozen, but other than that that
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: really freezing doesn't leave any physical signs on the body
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: beyond the reddish coloration and the lividity that occasionally appears.
• 32:58
  Speaker 1: So I guess a medical exam aner looked at the
• 33:00
  Speaker 1: level of d comp and knew she based on that alone,
• 33:04
  Speaker 1: she had not been in the water for two years.
• 33:07
  Speaker 1: He didn't know she had been frozen. Wow. Okay, take
• 33:12
  Speaker 1: a listen to NBC seven's Wendy Fry This is our
• 33:14
  Speaker 1: cut Tien Listen. On October thirteenth, twenty fourteen, Matthew Sullivan,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth's spouse, told police he had been fighting with his
• 33:21
  Speaker 1: wife about custody and child support for their two young girls,
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: then ages two and four, and one of his statements
• 33:27
  Speaker 1: to police, he reported Sullivan made a mess of the
• 33:29
  Speaker 1: bedroom and took photos. NBC seven discovered records from another
• 33:33
  Speaker 1: nine one one call made about six months prior to
• 33:36
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth's disappearance. Elizabeth called nine one one, this time during
• 33:40
  Speaker 1: an argument, and told police there was a history of
• 33:42
  Speaker 1: domestic violence between the couple. Shortly after her disappearance, Elizabeth's
• 33:46
  Speaker 1: father flew to San Diego from the family's home in
• 33:49
  Speaker 1: Virginia to speak with NBC seven and beg for his
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: daughter's safe return. I feel like she's in trouble, to
• 33:55
  Speaker 1: Matthew Mangino, veteran trial lawyer. You hear when the blood
• 34:01
  Speaker 1: is found soaked down in the carpet. Now this is
• 34:03
  Speaker 1: two years later, Okay, that the husband says is because
• 34:08
  Speaker 1: Elizabeth quote self harmed. So she mortally self harmed. And
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: I guess what does that mean? Committed suicide via self
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: harming and then marched herself to the San Diego Bay
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: and threw herself in. Yeah, I mean the explanation of
• 34:27
  Speaker 1: self harm for the for the pool of blood that's
• 34:30
  Speaker 1: soaked into the carpet, um, you know, seems to be uh,
• 34:35
  Speaker 1: you know, lacking in any veracity. The issue is the
• 34:40
  Speaker 1: evidence is beginning to mount in this case. Obviously we
• 34:44
  Speaker 1: know that it's a homicide because the pathologists said that,
• 34:49
  Speaker 1: but didn't say the method. We now have blood, we
• 34:52
  Speaker 1: now have a knife, We now have a history of
• 34:55
  Speaker 1: some domestic abuse or domestic quarrels. So the evidence is
• 35:01
  Speaker 1: beginning to grow in this case. And it all seems,
• 35:05
  Speaker 1: you know, to point to something in the home that
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: it resulted in her death. Guys, take a listen now
• 35:10
  Speaker 1: to Ango Namura, Fox five, San Diego. Namely romance that
• 35:15
  Speaker 1: became romantic, quickly started, cool septs, domestic violence infinitely, financial
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: issues and threats and restraining orders. These are the hallmarks
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: of the marriage and crisis. Prosecutors and defense attorneys presented
• 35:35
  Speaker 1: their opening statements sue jury in the case against Matthew Sullivan.
• 35:39
  Speaker 1: The former Navy sailer is facing a first degree murder
• 35:42
  Speaker 1: charge for allegedly killing his strange wife, Elizabeth Sullivan. Elizabeth's
• 35:47
  Speaker 1: body was found in the San Diego Bay in twenty
• 35:50
  Speaker 1: sixteen after she reportedly disappeared in twenty fourteen. Data and
• 35:56
  Speaker 1: they found five different risks on her last side, straight
• 36:04
  Speaker 1: out to you, doctor Kendall, crowns, knicks and cuts on
• 36:09
  Speaker 1: her back. I guess they're referring to her bones. What
• 36:14
  Speaker 1: does that mean to you? And Nixon cuts on her back,
• 36:19
  Speaker 1: I mean to me, if she has possible sharp horse
• 36:22
  Speaker 1: injury of her back, which is difficult to reach if
• 36:26
  Speaker 1: you're doing it to yourself, So it could be potentially
• 36:30
  Speaker 1: sharp horse injury perpetrated by another individual. Also, the Nixon
• 36:34
  Speaker 1: cuts could be from, depending on where she would recovered
• 36:37
  Speaker 1: from the ocean or the shoreline, rocks and the water,
• 36:43
  Speaker 1: things of that nature. But how could they tell she
• 36:45
  Speaker 1: was stam dead? How could they tell she was found stamped?
• 36:48
  Speaker 1: I mean she would have stamped wounds, that would be
• 36:51
  Speaker 1: they have a particular pattern to them. When you see them,
• 36:54
  Speaker 1: you know they're stab wounds. So depending on how they
• 36:58
  Speaker 1: looked on her body, I'm sure the medical event or
• 37:01
  Speaker 1: accepts them. And until they were stabbling from and that
• 37:04
  Speaker 1: was probably internal injury associated with them. Is that why
• 37:07
  Speaker 1: it's required some time that the victim's skin be pulled
• 37:10
  Speaker 1: away from their body to look for internal damages. Correct,
• 37:14
  Speaker 1: That's part of an autopsy. The epidermal dermal layer, the
• 37:17
  Speaker 1: upper layer of skin is pulled away to expose the
• 37:20
  Speaker 1: muscul churned bones, and then those are pulled away to
• 37:23
  Speaker 1: show the damage to the organ. The end of the story,
• 37:27
  Speaker 1: take a listen to NBC seven. A judge is sending
• 37:30
  Speaker 1: a former Navy man to prison for the brutal stabbing
• 37:33
  Speaker 1: death of his wife. Late this afternoon, Matthew Sullivan was
• 37:36
  Speaker 1: sentenced to sixteen years to life in prison for the
• 37:39
  Speaker 1: second degree murder of Elizabeth Sullivan. She disappeared in twenty fourteen.
• 37:44
  Speaker 1: Her body was discovered in the San Diego Bay two
• 37:46
  Speaker 1: years later. Sullivan heard statements from Elizabeth's closest friends today
• 37:51
  Speaker 1: about how much her death has affected loved ones. There
• 37:55
  Speaker 1: are no words to describe this pain that still sits
• 37:58
  Speaker 1: in the pit of my heart. Show no mercy, Show
• 38:02
  Speaker 1: no mercy. Sixteen to life. Her children have been sentenced
• 38:08
  Speaker 1: to a life sentence without their mother. Nancy Grace Crime
• 38:13
  Speaker 1: Story signing off good my friend.