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Legal Hurdles in Publishing with Maggie Marr · The Two Authors’ Podcast

• 0:00
  If we're gonna blow something up,
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  we're gonna make it a fictitious place.
• 0:02
  If we're gonna have a nice meal there,
• 0:03
  it can be a real restaurant.
• 0:04
  - And if you're gonna have a villain,
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  maybe don't name it after your father or mother-in-law.
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  Do you know what I mean?
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  Like, there is this, you know,
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  don't use real people's names.
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  - Yeah, I always change them up a little bit
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  in anagrammum and stuff like that, but yeah.
• 0:17
  - Yeah, you're asking them, don flat.
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  I didn't appreciate that at all.
• 0:21
  (laughing)
• 0:25
  - Welcome to the Two Authors podcast,
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  an entertaining chat show hosted by bestselling mystery
• 0:31
  and thriller authors, Douglas Pratt and Nicholas Harvey
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  in lively, humorous and informative conversation
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  with distinguished guests who share their thoughts
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  and experience about forging a successful author career.
• 0:47
  - Welcome to this show brought to you as always
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  by the fabulous fellow.
• 0:53
  - Who?
• 0:54
  - Who'd you say?
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  - Who'd you say Doug?
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  And have you last, hello.
• 0:59
  - That's the enthusiasm.
• 1:00
  - That's right, coming in here hot and strong
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  and ready to destroy your formatting needs.
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  (laughing)
• 1:09
  - Oh my God.
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  It like sounded like a wrestling commentator guy.
• 1:14
  - I could probably be a wrestling commentator.
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  I don't know, I was just talking to him the other day
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  about how amazingly quick and responsive Velom is.
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  Like they were, they had a problem.
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  like just email them, they'll fix it.
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  Like they fix these problems, they have a problem,
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  they're just, they're on it like super fast.
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  So, you know, they had a problem earlier this year
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  and it didn't affect me, I don't know if it affected you
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  or not, but I did read on some things
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  where people were talking about how a KDP had a band,
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  a couple of fonts that they were used to and--
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  - Wait, wait, wait, wait, wait.
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  They banned fonts.
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  - Well, I don't know if they--
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  - Well, they were misbehaving.
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  - Yes.
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  - They were pretending to be other fonts,
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  so they got themselves banned.
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  - Well, maybe they just banned together
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  and decided to become, there are, I think they were like
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  wingdings or something like that, you know?
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  Those are fonts that are just like out there,
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  just hanging out being like, yeah, we're fonts.
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  Yes, I'm a little square.
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  - I'm a fonts man.
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  - I'm trying to see how.
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  - We're here for the party mate.
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  (laughing)
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  I'm a Garamond, I'm gonna kick your ass.
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  - You're wingding and a Garamond fighting in the back.
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  (laughing)
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  Club wingding!
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  - That's it, you're banned.
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  - This is how we lose our sponsors.
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  It's right here.
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  We have gone.
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  Right.
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  My point was they like vellum like within an hour or two had gone in and figured out how to fix.
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  Like so these wingdings like how many people are using wingdings, but they're on it like this to fix it.
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  That's how responsive I mean and if you message them for their customer service, I mean kind of last time I did it
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  It was pretty quick. I mean, I think it was Brad going you're an idiot. Just look here
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  But I appreciate that because that's what my wife tells me
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  I think we're known as idiots up and down amongst the vellum staff as it's
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  Somebody helped us with translation uploads and every time she's like very patiently like as I mentioned before
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  Well like we did that she goes no you didn't do this one. Oh right my email yesterday
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  She's very patient with us very yeah, no their vellum is great
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  But it's I think if you have a problem with them their customer service top notch top notch
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  Also makes you big. Thank you to all you patreon supporters out there. We've got some
• 3:28
  Great bonus questions on there. So if you guys jump on there, we've also got all sorts of other fun things
• 3:34
  But if you just find any value out of talk listening to us talk, you know, which could be good
• 3:40
  We are mostly you want to list our guest talk because that's why we ask you a question
• 3:44
  Yeah, but pop on over there. It is we greatly appreciate it
• 3:49
  It is not the cheap thing to put out this podcast and we appreciate all the help we have lots of extra
• 3:54
  This book goes a long way. Yeah, it's only $3 a month
• 3:57
  It's you know price going up soon get in now while it's only $3
• 4:02
  Yes, grandfather yourself in so but we also have a really great guest today who we got Doug who we got we have
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  Maggie Maher who is a USA today best-selling romance author, but for our purposes
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  She's also a former ICM motion picture literate city area agent.
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  She's the founder of the Maggie Maher legal PC, a boutique entertainment
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  and intellectual property law firm for creatives.
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  You know what you are, Nick?
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  You're a creative.
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  I'm a creator.
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  Oh, that's nice.
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  I'm trying to keep up with this long winded brick and brilliant intro.
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  She's an important person.
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  She's very important.
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  And she is, uh, she's going to be a great, give us some information
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  about the legal side of things.
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  So this is going to be very, very educational, very information.
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  I hope you guys buckle up.
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  But before we get started with that, we have a listener question from our recent
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  guest, Kathleen Antrim.
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  Kathleen Antrim, thank you so much for sticking around with us for a listener
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  question. And you are an outliers writing university guru.
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  So you're going to have a good one, I'm sure.
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  What do you got?
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  Thanks.
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  Thanks so much, guys.
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  What I would like to know from both of you is if you were just starting out today, what
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  would you now, with your experience, advise your beginner self, you know, what to do and
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  how to do it and what have you?
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  What kind of advice would you give yourself when you were first starting out?
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  Knowing what you know now?
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  I got one.
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  So, my first book I wrote in 2017 and I didn't know what to do with it.
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  I was still working full time.
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  I basically sat on it. I self-pubbed it so my mom could have a copy and sold 100 copies
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  or something over six months or whatever. I basically did nothing for two years. Then
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  I decided I'm going to do a career change and I'll have another go at this writing.
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  If I'd only known that in 2017 was the tail end of a gold era for Kindle books. If I'd
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  just promoted the book and done some promotion around it back in 2017, I could have really
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  got a good jump start on my career back then. Instead, I waited until into 2019 and really
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  2020 when the Kindle market was now flooded and it was much, much harder to launch. So
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  that would be probably, there's a million other things I tell myself too, but if I only
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  got one, that would be it.
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  Douglas.
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  Okay. I would say the very first thing I had done was started a mailing list because the
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  getting visibility and getting seen by readers is important.
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  But once they see me, I want them to be able to stay with me.
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  And early on, I was, I was still writing not full time.
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  So I was not writing nearly as many books.
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  So I was doing one or two books a year.
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  So, you know, keeping that engagement up is super important with fans.
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  So I would, that's probably one of the things I would have done early on
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  instead of waiting way too long.
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  Yeah.
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  That's a good one.
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  Great question, Kathleen.
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  Thank you so much for sticking around.
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  My pleasure.
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  Great advice.
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  Thanks guys.
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  Welcome to the show.
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  Maggie, it's great to have you with us today.
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  Thank you.
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  Thank you for inviting me.
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  Yeah.
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  Absolutely.
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  It's a pleasure to have you here.
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  We need smart people on here.
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  And so we try them.
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  Otherwise, just break the IQ of the show by it, like, you know, about four digits.
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  So.
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  - Well, I just got to get started off
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  'cause obviously you work as an attorney,
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  but you also have been in the publishing world anyway.
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  So if you could give us kind of a real quick,
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  like, you know, synopsis on how you got into publishing
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  and into working with creatives.
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  - And so I was an attorney practicing first in Illinois
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  and then in Colorado and then moved to Los Angeles
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  and started in the mailroom at ICM,
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  which at the time was the second or arguably third
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  biggest agency in the world.
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  The day I started in the mailroom,
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  There were three other attorneys in a PhD pushing mail cards.
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  So I worked my way up.
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  - No way.
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  - Yeah, yeah, yeah.
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  - You're a qualified attorney
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  and you get to push a mail card around.
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  - Yeah, so, you know, it's a kind of a tried and true,
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  proven pathway to becoming an agent.
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  So I eventually became an agent
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  in the motion picture literary department.
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  After a stint in books to film and TV,
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  I represented screenplay writers and directors primarily.
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  While I was an agent, I would write just for myself
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  because I'd always been a writer
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  And one of my colleagues sold my first book at auction in a two book deal.
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  At that point, I had two young kids.
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  And so I determined that writing, because someone had paid me to write, was much different
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  than writing just for fun.
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  And so I left agency and became a full-time writer for a while.
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  But what happened was is that a number of my clients would still reach out to me to read
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  their scripts and to look at their deals.
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  Then when my author friends discovered that I understood books to film and TV, they would
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  ask me to read their books and look at their deals.
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  And then also having a background in publishing, you know, that kind of organically became
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  part of my practice as well.
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  So I think I was about five years in to practicing and writing.
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  And my husband said, "Hey, you know, if you practice law five or six hours a day and you
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  write, you know, two hours a day, you have an entertainment law firm. And I said, oh, yeah,
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  I guess I do. So then I started treating it like a true entertainment law firm, but it's always been
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  through word of mouth. And it's been through friends of friends referring people to me when they
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  need some help with contracts or publishing or books to film and TV. And then I still have
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  some directors, screenplay writers, restaurateurs, fashion designers. I like to think that the people
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  I work with are people who take their ideas and make them into real things in the world.
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  So. Oh, right. Yeah. Wow. What a wide background of experience in everything and entertainment.
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  Yeah. I mean, have you been in the music industry?
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  That is the one area that I don't I have done some clearances, you know, for
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  authors and then for projects to clear to clear lyrics and things like that or to try to get
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  licensing deals in place for people who want to use them. But music is a very specialized
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  area. So I refer those things out. That's not my area of expertise.
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  And you cover everything else. And you've worked in every other field. That's an amazing
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  background.
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  So I don't care. When an author like me does come to you, what kind of things would someone
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  like me want a creative attorney for?
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  - Yeah, yeah, I think it depends on your business, right?
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  So a number of my clients are independently published authors.
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  And so sometimes they will be presented with agreements
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  from vendors that they work with,
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  or they may want to have an agreement in place
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  for vendors that they work with,
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  whether that be for foreign rights
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  or even cover designers or editors, things like that.
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  I have some clients who have reached out
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  and asked me to create agreements
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  for people that they're working with, consultants,
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  or like their PAs, things like that.
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  So basically it's anything that you might need to review.
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  Now I will say it's my opinion,
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  but I'm an entertainment attorney
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  that when things are starting to deal with your rights,
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  how you're gonna convey your rights,
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  how you're gonna license your rights,
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  it doesn't have to be me,
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  but my suggestion is to have someone review those agreements
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  because I have gotten the bad side of that,
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  meaning that somebody will enter into an agreement
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  unrepresented and then they'll come to me and say, "Hey, I don't think this is exactly
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  what I wanted it to be.
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  Can you figure out a way to get me out of this knot?"
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  And that can be a little bit challenging.
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  Yeah.
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  Yeah, I'm probably expensive.
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  I guess it can be.
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  I tried not to be meaning that, yes, for the longest time I wasn't really billing well for
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  my time and it was actually one of my author friends who said, "You provide a service.
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  You need to be better at that."
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  Yeah, absolutely.
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  But I too run a small business as most independent authors do.
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  So there are a couple of things I took away from agenting.
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  Like I don't bill to have calls with clients.
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  I don't bill to zoom with clients and that's a little bit different.
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  And there are times when we will do work for a flat fee so that a small independent author
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  can know what their bill is going to look like and they don't get surprised.
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  And then when we move things into the books, into the film and TV space or when we do a
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  publishing deal, we will commission those deals. So that oftentimes, authors prefer that.
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  So real simple question for you. You said mentioned about rights. I know we're going to
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  talk with them, but I was kind of also talking about a little bit of copyright as well. And really,
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  from the standpoint of an idiot author like myself, what is the difference between the two
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  to start off with? Like, is there a difference? Is that the same thing? Are we, you know,
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  a hearing word right? Right. So when I talk about rights, I'm thinking about like,
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  your subsidiary and ancillary rights as well as your publishing rights because you license those
• 13:02
  to a trad publisher and when you create a book your copyright is automatic. However, if you file
• 13:07
  with the U.S. Copyright Office you get additional protections on your copyrighted work. I mean,
• 13:12
  one of those is that it shifts the burden of proof meaning that if you have filed it with the U.S.
• 13:17
  Copyright Office there is an assumption that that work is yours. So then if you find someone
• 13:23
  infringing on it and you have your copyright certificate, you can send that to Amazon and
• 13:28
  they'll take the infringer down. I do believe anyone smart enough to write a book can file for
• 13:33
  their own copyright at the US Copyright Office. That's not something in my opinion that you...
• 13:38
  I do it for people, but I bill them. And I think any author can do it for themselves.
• 13:43
  And the filing fee is only $65. Now, the website for the US Copyright Office is a government website.
• 13:49
  So the first time you do it can be a little bit challenging
• 13:52
  But once if you sit down with a cup of coffee have a couple hours of time
• 13:56
  Most authors can work their way through a US copyright filing most she said Nick
• 14:01
  I'm not sure about me but most yeah, well my wife's doing it for me, but the
• 14:07
  It's really simple
• 14:09
  And I think it's actually 45 for
• 14:12
  Books yeah at the moment, but there's there is something going around that it might get increased
• 14:18
  it's been put out there that it might go up considerably actually. And of course, the whole
• 14:23
  copyright thing has come to light very much with the anthropic lawsuit because copyrighted books,
• 14:29
  registered copyrighted books have been included in the anthropic lawsuit. So,
• 14:34
  dumbasses like myself and Doug here who found that, well, it's copyrighted as soon as you
• 14:41
  write it because that's what American Law says. Believed that and didn't copyright them and now
• 14:45
  not involved in that lawsuit, which is costly. So I'm actually going through the process
• 14:49
  of copywriting everything now. We're doing sort of over 30 books out there. So we're
• 14:54
  doing like four a week and uploading them.
• 14:57
  So smart. I think that it's always good to do it. I think the optimal time is within
• 15:01
  the first 30 to 90 days of publication. But if you missed that window, go ahead and do
• 15:07
  the filing.
• 15:08
  So that was my next question. If for a long running series at that point, is it worth
• 15:12
  going ahead and going through all of those. If you have 100 books, that's going to be
• 15:16
  either $6,500 or $4,500, right? It could be. It could be really beneficial. And if you run into
• 15:23
  a challenge, you'll be glad you did it. One of some of the biggest misconceptions that you've seen
• 15:28
  people have about copywriting. About copywriting. I don't know if there's misconceptions. I think
• 15:35
  that sometimes authors will not believe that there's a benefit to filing for copyright, and the
• 15:41
  the benefits are that it shifts the burden of proof.
• 15:43
  It also allows for statutory damages and attorney's fees.
• 15:48
  So if you run into a situation
• 15:50
  where someone's infringing on your work,
• 15:52
  that can be helpful in finding an attorney
• 15:54
  who I don't litigate.
• 15:56
  So if you need a litigator to pursue an infringer
• 15:59
  and you already have your copyright certificate,
• 16:01
  then they know that if they win that suit,
• 16:04
  there will be a payment to them as well as to the author.
• 16:08
  And then, you know, as more and more distributors,
• 16:10
  the first level of interface with say Amazon and maybe even Barnes & Noble is not a human.
• 16:16
  It is great to be able to upload or say, "I have the copyright on this." And then they
• 16:21
  are like, "Oh, okay. So there's a presumption that this is the correct owner of this work."
• 16:26
  So I think it's valuable.
• 16:28
  Well, my unprofessional opinion would be agree with you, but that was also, you know, life
• 16:32
  taught us those lessons as we came along, like Nick said.
• 16:36
  Yeah, we've learned to the hard way. We'll see whether that all plans out. There's been
• 16:40
  some stirring in there that someone challenged it. It should cover other stuff. We'll see
• 16:45
  where it goes.
• 16:47
  Now, a quick word from this episode's sponsor, Parallel Truth, a Kickstarter-exclusive graphic
• 16:51
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• 16:57
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  Nation, November 10th through 13th in Las Vegas. Now we'll get back to the show.
• 17:31
  So for most indie authors, many indie authors out there are sitting there going, "Well, I
• 17:36
  don't have contracts. I'm indie. I'm not doing it. But that's not true, right? If you have
• 17:40
  a cover designer, you probably have a contract of some sort. And certainly your editor, narrators,
• 17:46
  all this, there's contracts involved. What are the indie authors need to be aware of
• 17:51
  that they're probably not aware of when it comes to that stuff?
• 17:53
  So one of the things that you can run into sometimes is that say you've done a cover
• 17:58
  and you maybe haven't entered into an agreement, then you may not own that cover, right? So
• 18:06
  where you own the rights to that cover. I've seen it happen where then say, and the author decides
• 18:11
  that they're going to license the publishing rights to a traditional publisher, they have to get
• 18:15
  clearance from the cover designer if it wasn't truly a work for hire and the author doesn't own it.
• 18:22
  Right. And I've seen that with artwork as well. Because, you know, especially in the Romantic
• 18:27
  space, and you'll see great art within independent books. Now, a number of authors do have those
• 18:34
  artists into work for higher agreements to show that the author now is the owner of that artwork,
• 18:40
  which I think can be really beneficial. I think it's just laying the groundwork so that if and
• 18:45
  when your business starts to expand, you're able to show the chain of title for these elements
• 18:51
  that you want to continue to utilize. And work for hire is a key phrase, is it not?
• 18:57
  It is. It is. It has to be specific within the agreement. And then also we put in language that says if that agreement was not deemed to be a work for hire that the artist hereby assigns all right title on interest to the copyright to the author.
• 19:14
  It's kind of like a fallback position because say you were to go to court and the judge said, well, there's really no this isn't a true work for hire agreement. Then it's an assignment of those rights to the author.
• 19:25
  And you just want to have ownership over as I believe in the author's benefit from having ownership over as much of the different elements that they put with their books.
• 19:36
  And all of this just proves, you know, a copyright proves that the author is the owner. The work for higher agreement proves that you own the art, you own the cover. Those things that become important elements for the entire book.
• 19:51
  Right. And so much of that is it's not about being able to get into litigation with somebody if they if they wrong you, it's about preventing that situation ever occurring if the language is right. Correct.
• 20:03
  Absolutely. Absolutely.
• 20:06
  In comparison, we talk copyrights talk about the trademarks like how should indie authors think about the trademarks like pen names. If you're using a different name than yourself or even your own name for that matter.
• 20:17
  like the imprints, logos, all the serious titles. I'm always kind of curious. There's a few Douglas
• 20:23
  Pratt's wandering around and they may be trying to take credit from me.
• 20:27
  Well, and that's exactly why people do trademark. So, seven years ago, I would have said why would
• 20:32
  an author want to trademark anything, right? But with the growth of the indie market, I believe
• 20:40
  there are a couple things that an indie author at a certain point in their career may want to
• 20:43
  to consider trademarking and it's because it becomes a brand asset, right?
• 20:47
  Just like Nike, this swoosh or the Apple logo, those are brand assets.
• 20:52
  And that's how buyers, consumers know what they're getting, right?
• 20:57
  So my thought is always, if you are making a lot of money and I understand that
• 21:04
  that's sort of subjective, but if, yeah, but if you're making a lot of money on
• 21:09
  a specific pin name, you may want to consider trademarking that pin name, right?
• 21:13
  The other thing is that you're best selling series.
• 21:17
  If your series is making a substantial portion of your income, you may want to trademark
• 21:22
  the series name.
• 21:23
  Now, you can't trademark an individual title name.
• 21:27
  You can trademark a series name.
• 21:29
  The USPTO thinks of a series generally as two books or more.
• 21:34
  When we file for trademark for authors, we're filing for trademark generally in two to three
• 21:39
  classes with the USPTO.
• 21:41
  generally for digital and then also for paper, right? But I like to think about it from a business
• 21:48
  perspective. Where are you making the most money? And those are the assets you want to protect first.
• 21:54
  And again, it becomes incredibly helpful if all of a sudden somebody is using Douglas Pratt as a
• 22:00
  name and say they're putting like a shadow book that looks like it's your book, but it's not your
• 22:05
  book on a site obviously to kind of draft off of your own success and to confuse your
• 22:11
  readers, then you reach out to Amazon and say, "Hey, I have the trademark for this
• 22:15
  pin name and I have a trademark for this series name." That will come down very quickly.
• 22:20
  So, if I have a trademark for Douglas Pratt and there's another legitimate Douglas Pratt
• 22:26
  putting a book up there, does that mean I can reach out to Amazon and say, "Hey, they
• 22:29
  can't have that?" Or is that going to be more...
• 22:32
  Well, if it's their legal name, it may become a little bit muddy, but if it's a pen name,
• 22:37
  then they'll most likely take it down.
• 22:39
  And you won't be able to get the trademark if somebody else has gotten the trademark
• 22:43
  on it.
• 22:44
  So there is a two-step process.
• 22:46
  So when somebody comes to me with a pen name, the first thing we do is clear it worldwide.
• 22:51
  Because if there's somebody else out there who already has the trademark or somebody
• 22:55
  else out there that has been using it first, you may not want to file for trademark.
• 23:00
  Well, first of all, if they have the trademark, you're not going to get it.
• 23:03
  But secondly, you may not want to alert them to your use.
• 23:06
  You know, there is that as well.
• 23:08
  And then what has started to happen, which has happened in corporations for forever,
• 23:13
  is that people are starting to do that clearance search on potential series names before they
• 23:18
  even name it.
• 23:19
  And that's because they want to see, is there anything out there that is going to prevent
• 23:23
  me from being the sole sort of owner?
• 23:26
  Another way to get around it.
• 23:27
  So say someone had trademarked Douglas Pratt already,
• 23:31
  but Douglas Pratt was like your sort of brand
• 23:34
  that you wanted to continue to maintain is logos.
• 23:37
  You know, if you were to create a logo
• 23:39
  that utilized Douglas Pratt
• 23:40
  and you were gonna put that logo on every one of your books,
• 23:44
  most likely we can get the logo mark through the USPTO.
• 23:49
  And then that's a stamp that you can put on your books
• 23:51
  that alerts your readers, this is my book.
• 23:54
  - So I don't wanna put you on the spot, Maggie,
• 23:56
  and ask rates or anything like that.
• 23:57
  But to trademark a series name,
• 23:59
  are we talking three digits, four digits,
• 24:01
  five digits for that process?
• 24:03
  - Yeah, so the way our firm works is we do it in two phases.
• 24:07
  We do phase one, which is to clear it
• 24:10
  and to write an opinion letter as to whether or not
• 24:12
  we think the mark will get through the USPTO.
• 24:14
  And we do charge for that.
• 24:15
  We charge $2,000 to do it.
• 24:18
  And then the second phase is when we actually
• 24:20
  collect the specimens and we do the filing
• 24:22
  and then we sort of, we stay with it
• 24:24
  until it actually gets through the USPTO
• 24:27
  and we charge another 2000 for that.
• 24:29
  The filing fees with the USPTO,
• 24:31
  I think are running about 350 per class at this point.
• 24:34
  So copyright, I absolutely believe
• 24:37
  an author can do on their own.
• 24:39
  Trademark, if you have a background,
• 24:41
  you could probably do it,
• 24:42
  but you may wanna have someone do it,
• 24:43
  doesn't have to be me,
• 24:44
  but you may wanna have someone do it
• 24:46
  because everything we do on our side,
• 24:49
  once we file with the USPTO,
• 24:51
  they assign an examining attorney.
• 24:53
  And that examining attorney who works for the USPTO
• 24:56
  does all the stuff that we did on their side
• 24:59
  to see if our assessment is accurate,
• 25:01
  that this mark should be able to register with the USPTO.
• 25:05
  - How long does the process normally take?
• 25:08
  - So it's a great question.
• 25:09
  (laughing)
• 25:10
  - You'd love to know the answer.
• 25:11
  - Well, it slows down after the filing.
• 25:15
  So if somebody comes to me,
• 25:16
  we can generate an opinion letter
• 25:18
  usually within five to seven days.
• 25:20
  We can do our search
• 25:22
  and we can generate the opinion letter
• 25:23
  and we can send that back.
• 25:24
  And then if they say, okay, this is great,
• 25:26
  go ahead and file.
• 25:27
  So we can collect the specimens
• 25:29
  and we can get the filing done,
• 25:30
  usually within the next 10 days or so.
• 25:34
  But then it slows down.
• 25:35
  The thing that slows it down
• 25:36
  is that we have to wait then for the USPTO
• 25:39
  to assign an examining attorney to that case file.
• 25:43
  At one point, it felt like it was taking nine to 12 months.
• 25:46
  I can say that it feels like it's getting closer
• 25:48
  to six months.
• 25:49
  It used to be six months
• 25:51
  and then it got really slow for a while.
• 25:52
  Once we get an examining attorney assigned,
• 25:55
  it again moves quickly.
• 25:57
  They either say, yes, we agree with you.
• 25:58
  We think that this mark should be able to register.
• 26:02
  And then they recommend that it's published
• 26:04
  in the USPTO Gazette.
• 26:06
  And the publication window is for 11 weeks.
• 26:09
  And that's so anyone in the world who may have a claim
• 26:11
  to that mark can come forward and say,
• 26:13
  we object to this mark registering.
• 26:16
  And after that 11 weeks, then the mark registers.
• 26:18
  Now, I can tell you that even though it takes a long time,
• 26:22
  once it registers that registration,
• 26:25
  you kind of plant your flag the minute you file, right?
• 26:28
  - Right, right, yeah. - So that's a good thing.
• 26:29
  - As long as it goes through,
• 26:31
  then it retros kinda to the beginning of it.
• 26:33
  - Yes, yes, and then also there's the intent to use, right?
• 26:37
  I mentioned how people are kind of pre-determining
• 26:40
  if a series name is gonna be available to them.
• 26:44
  You can file an intent to use any mark with the USPTO,
• 26:48
  and then you have six months to show that it's actually in use.
• 26:52
  And on top of that, the USPTO will allow you to extend that.
• 26:56
  Usually, they'll allow you about three to five extensions,
• 26:59
  which are each six months for a fee.
• 27:01
  But it then gives you time as an author
• 27:03
  to actually get the mark in use.
• 27:06
  So your question was, how long does it take?
• 27:09
  It doesn't take our side very long.
• 27:11
  It's just sometimes waiting on the USPTO to assign it.
• 27:14
  The automatic process.
• 27:16
  We assume you're probably gonna be good.
• 27:18
  So it's gonna be the government that messes it.
• 27:21
  Well, it just takes a while.
• 27:23
  Yeah.
• 27:24
  Well, that's cool.
• 27:24
  I mean, for me, when I'm coming up for the title
• 27:27
  for a new book, I Google it.
• 27:29
  I see what's out there, right?
• 27:30
  'Cause the first thing, I go on Amazon, search for it
• 27:33
  and see if anything comes up that's the same or close.
• 27:35
  That's the first thing.
• 27:36
  When I did new series, I did the same thing.
• 27:38
  And I think most people probably do that.
• 27:40
  But it's interesting to go the next step to trademark it.
• 27:44
  Can I trademark the name Nicholas Harvey and that way I can.
• 27:48
  He wants to trademark it and then not let me.
• 27:51
  Well, that's not very nice.
• 27:54
  I know that's.
• 27:55
  Have you met Doug?
• 27:57
  Just now she's like, huh, I've heard stories, but.
• 28:01
  I was going to try to trademark Stephen King, but I figure he's probably got.
• 28:06
  Trademark that.
• 28:07
  And if not, he would probably object to.
• 28:10
  I imagine he would.
• 28:11
  Yeah.
• 28:12
  Yeah.
• 28:12
  He probably would.
• 28:13
  Yeah. Yeah.
• 28:14
  So what other legal housekeeping should, especially both successful, but also emerging
• 28:21
  new authors, consider to become part, if you want to start making that move from being,
• 28:27
  you know, I'm just a writer who's written a couple of books to making this a business.
• 28:30
  There's all sorts of legal things we should be thinking about. And oftentimes we who are
• 28:35
  creatives don't think about stuff like that. So.
• 28:38
  One of the things is that you may want to consider becoming an LLC or a corporate entity.
• 28:43
  I'm not an accountant nor do I practice tax law, but it can be hugely beneficial to authors
• 28:50
  to have an LLC or a corporate entity because then you're running both the income as well
• 28:56
  as all your expenses from one space, right?
• 28:59
  And I think that it can also have benefits for you when tax season comes up.
• 29:04
  So I'm a big believer in that.
• 29:07
  And just so you know, I get a lot of authors who will say, you know, I was just started
• 29:11
  this because I really love to write, you know, and I thought I'd make just a little bit of
• 29:15
  side money and then all of a sudden they just, they're like a rocket ship to the moon, right?
• 29:20
  Like they get to the fourth or the fifth book and suddenly they're making six figures and
• 29:24
  they're like, oh my God, what do I do?
• 29:26
  Or oh my goodness, what do I do?
• 29:27
  And I do say, whenever I speak publicly, I'm like, it is like you're building a spaceship
• 29:33
  as you're traveling to the moon, right?
• 29:35
  Because suddenly they have all these concerns
• 29:37
  - That's very good, yes, very true, yes.
• 29:40
  - Or then all of a sudden like foreign publishers
• 29:42
  are reaching out or they wanna translate
• 29:44
  into these different territories
• 29:46
  or they're considering should I do a deal for, you know,
• 29:51
  to lay off my paperback and my special editions
• 29:54
  with the TRAD publisher, can I maintain my e-book?
• 29:57
  All of those are sort of the questions that come up
• 29:59
  And those are things that I spent a lot of time talking to clients and potential clients about,
• 30:05
  you know, how do you continue on that trajectory and not be kind of out there feeling really,
• 30:12
  I don't know, like you're floating out there with nothing to grab onto.
• 30:17
  So, another side note a little more. Something else we've discussed a little bit and both of us
• 30:22
  have thought about we both have a pretty good backlist but and some of us mainly Nick is older
• 30:26
  So his his life spans not as long as mine. What could go at any moment?
• 30:32
  If I just fall over out the chair, please Maggie keep going finish the show
• 30:36
  It's the stress of island life that wears on him
• 30:38
  It's it's I feel for him. I figure he's gonna but estate planning like that's something to think about too
• 30:43
  That we have to think about if you know, obviously, you know, if I die I get hit by a bus or you know
• 30:49
  Nick strangles me which is more likely
• 30:54
  What should we as authors be doing to ensure legacy for that for our future?
• 31:00
  Yes. Great question. I've spoken on that one a couple of times at different writers' conferences.
• 31:05
  So estate planning and wills are very specific state to state in the United States. So the first
• 31:11
  thing I think that you're going to want to do is you're going to want to find an estate attorney
• 31:16
  that has hopefully a background in intellectual property. That is really easy to do in California
• 31:23
  as well as in New York and also in Georgia because of Atlanta has had so much production.
• 31:27
  Oh yeah, Georgia might be there.
• 31:29
  It can be a little bit more challenging in some states that are maybe not known for having
• 31:34
  film, TV, music, publishing back.
• 31:36
  That's right. We have Nashville and this rock and roll.
• 31:39
  Because of Nashville, there are state attorneys that are well-versed in intellectual property.
• 31:46
  That's kind of what creates that sort of ability. But I've had clients ask and so far I've been
• 31:53
  able to help them find an estate attorney that understands it.
• 31:55
  Or what I've also had is they will have an estate attorney that may ask Pivot to me and
• 32:00
  say, "So can you walk me through some of the issues that might be present with regards
• 32:06
  to somebody who has a big catalog of intellectual property?"
• 32:10
  So one of the things that is really interesting is that I remember hearing an estate attorney,
• 32:16
  I think it was out of Massachusetts who had done a lot of intellectual properties.
• 32:19
  So think about this.
• 32:20
  She said, "When you pass, your heirs get your books in totality, and they have to agree
• 32:29
  to do anything with regards to those titles."
• 32:32
  And when she told me that, my kids, where I think they were like 13 and 16, I couldn't
• 32:36
  get them to agree as to who was going to sit in the front seat.
• 32:41
  So the idea of them agreeing as to where to distribute, new covers, should we go with
• 32:48
  this publisher?
• 32:49
  we do this, that, or the other.
• 32:51
  That, to me, I was like, that seems like a complete impossibility.
• 32:54
  So one of the things some authors will do is they will appoint--
• 32:58
  it used to be when nobody did indie that a traditional publisher
• 33:02
  and the agent would kind of act as a consultant to the family.
• 33:05
  And that would be helpful to them.
• 33:07
  But a lot of independently published authors
• 33:10
  don't necessarily have those entities that
• 33:12
  are kind of have that knowledge base.
• 33:14
  It's really you that has the knowledge base as far as your books
• 33:18
  and how you publish them and how it works.
• 33:20
  So what you can do, there are companies that do it as well,
• 33:24
  like they'll do literary estate management,
• 33:26
  but I think that usually you have to be at a certain level
• 33:28
  to make that worthwhile.
• 33:30
  But you can put your books in trust
• 33:33
  or you can pick a person who's gonna be the manager
• 33:36
  of the literary estate.
• 33:37
  Now, your heirs could all get a piece of that revenue stream,
• 33:41
  but then you've only got one person
• 33:43
  who has to make the decisions as to whether or not
• 33:46
  you're gonna do new covers,
• 33:47
  Are you going to do a special edition?
• 33:49
  Are you going to try to find a publisher?
• 33:50
  And as the person overseeing it,
• 33:53
  they may take a small percentage
• 33:55
  because they're doing that work on your behalf.
• 33:57
  I've had authors who have big back lists,
• 33:59
  who have children, who become writers,
• 34:02
  and that seems like the perfect person.
• 34:04
  I mean, Dune is a perfect example, right?
• 34:06
  Like I think it's his son that manages
• 34:07
  the entire literary estate for him,
• 34:10
  or for the heirs and for the family.
• 34:12
  So they'll have a child or an heir
• 34:14
  that they decide is the right person for that.
• 34:16
  Now, if you don't have somebody that's maybe going to be in our world, it's maybe worth
• 34:20
  a conversation with someone saying, "Hey, do you want to be the person managing this?"
• 34:25
  And if not, let's look to find someone who's willing to do it, who can take a fee to be
• 34:30
  the manager of literary estate.
• 34:32
  But again, very state specific.
• 34:35
  So you'll want to consult with an estate attorney within your state.
• 34:39
  And now, let's hear from this episode's sponsor.
• 34:42
  Hi, I'm Jamie Davis, show manager for Author Nation.
• 34:45
  I hope to see all of you in Las Vegas this coming November.
• 34:49
  In the meantime, we're getting the band back together and I'm really excited because even
• 34:54
  the drummer is coming out of retirement.
• 34:56
  Of course, there will be repercussions.
• 35:00
  And now, let's get back to the show.
• 35:02
  Okay, so a question that everyone has at some point with you write enough books, you're
• 35:07
  going to want to quote some lyrics in there.
• 35:09
  You're going to want to mention a movie or a TV show.
• 35:12
  I just put Dolly Parton impersonator in mine.
• 35:15
  - Okay. - How legal is that?
• 35:17
  - Well, I mean, okay, so probably you're fine.
• 35:22
  She's a public figure if you're not saying anything
• 35:26
  disparaging the likelihood of Dolly Parton
• 35:28
  coming for you on that.
• 35:29
  - I'm from Tennessee, we never say anything
• 35:31
  disparaging about Dolly. - Who would?
• 35:32
  I mean, really, who would? - Yeah, I know not about Dolly.
• 35:34
  - Is she a saint?
• 35:35
  I truly believe she might be the only living saint
• 35:38
  out there based on all that she's done in the world.
• 35:41
  I mean, she's amazing.
• 35:43
  - I agree wholeheartedly.
• 35:44
  - Yeah, she's done so many huge things
• 35:47
  to benefit just humanity in general,
• 35:49
  not to mention the songs that she's written
• 35:52
  that create joy for everyone.
• 35:54
  So that being--
• 35:55
  - We do love Dolly, just so she knows
• 35:57
  before she comes to Suze.
• 35:58
  - I love Dolly, yeah, I love her.
• 36:01
  So that being said, you're probably in a safe space
• 36:04
  because she is a public figure
• 36:06
  and you're not saying anything dispiriting.
• 36:09
  With lyrics, it's a no fly zone, right?
• 36:11
  Like you have to get lyrics cleared, period, end of story.
• 36:15
  I have had authors say, thank you for telling me that,
• 36:18
  I'm still gonna put them in my books.
• 36:20
  And if they come for me, they come for me,
• 36:22
  which arguably is an independent author,
• 36:25
  you know, you can take the book down
• 36:26
  and you can beg for forgiveness
• 36:28
  and hopefully they don't sue you,
• 36:30
  but they have the ability to, right?
• 36:32
  And they'll probably win
• 36:33
  because it is a copyright infringement,
• 36:36
  to use somebody's lyrics without clearing them first.
• 36:38
  Presumably that has to be clear that it is being used as a like two words in a song use it out of reference
• 36:45
  It's like who can say that it was taken from the song
• 36:48
  But if it's clearly used as a quotation from the song then that's it's cut and dried right you can mention a song
• 36:54
  You know you just you cannot use the lyrics, you know
• 36:58
  So that is am I right in saying the general rule of
• 37:01
  Thumb is for public figures and anything like that as long as you're not using them in a bad way in a bad light
• 37:08
  Then it's kind of free game. Yes, I will say that there are certain companies that are very litigious
• 37:16
  And so if you wanted to categorize one of their characters as a public figure, you would not want to do that, right?
• 37:22
  Like you're not gonna want to utilize name any Disney character. Well, you can't you can't say you can't put bugs bunny in your story
• 37:30
  Like I've walked on the street and shook hands with bugs bunny
• 37:33
  But you can't you can say we were sitting there watching Star Wars on TV. Yes, you can say that
• 37:39
  Yeah, right because that's what humans do. How does that work with like?
• 37:44
  Real locations to like if I use a restaurant like sometimes you want to use something that's really there in a town
• 37:51
  Is that is there some legal ramifications about that? I mean, I assume you don't want to bad mouth them
• 37:56
  I mean if they if you say that they gave everyone some anella poisoning
• 38:01
  - Yeah, yeah. - It could be problematic.
• 38:02
  And I would say to you, please use,
• 38:04
  please make up a name for the restaurant
• 38:06
  instead of utilizing the real restaurant.
• 38:08
  And here's the thing.
• 38:09
  So there is the letter of the law and the application of it.
• 38:12
  It's very expensive to get sued.
• 38:14
  It's also very expensive to sue someone, right?
• 38:18
  So disparagements, lander, all of those things come into play,
• 38:22
  but there is this idea that creative people get to utilize,
• 38:26
  you have the right to tell your story, you know?
• 38:29
  That makes good sense, I guess,
• 38:31
  so that helps us a little bit.
• 38:33
  Just common sense.
• 38:34
  A common sense sounds like a good thing.
• 38:35
  Like don't badmouth people for sure.
• 38:37
  - Yeah.
• 38:38
  - I mean, I think we've talked about it before.
• 38:40
  If we're gonna blow something up,
• 38:41
  we're gonna make it a fictitious place.
• 38:43
  - That's right, yeah.
• 38:44
  - If we're gonna have a nice meal there,
• 38:46
  it can be a real restaurant.
• 38:47
  - And if you're gonna have a villain,
• 38:48
  maybe don't name it after your father or mother-in-law.
• 38:50
  Do you know what I mean?
• 38:51
  Like there is this, you know,
• 38:53
  don't use real people's names, you know?
• 38:56
  - Change him up a little bit.
• 38:58
  I was changing up a little bit and anagramm them and stuff like that. Yeah
• 39:08
  Terrible terrible and then having eaten by whale who's ridiculous so
• 39:13
  Okay, we let's let's talk about
• 39:16
  You know, you've obviously worked in Hollywood a little bit
• 39:18
  So people are always wanting to know how do I get my books made into movies?
• 39:22
  So I guess since you've worked with the books to film and television rights
• 39:27
  What do you see as what would make a book or a series more attractive for that kind of adaptation?
• 39:33
  So if I'm gonna write one with the goal of
• 39:37
  Hoping one day to get it out there. What should I be focusing on? I've got the first answer for that
• 39:42
  They have to know about it
• 39:46
  Just because all your all your family say boy or your readers say boy, this would make a great movie
• 39:52
  That does not mean shit to Hollywood
• 39:56
  Well, there is, you know, there, I feel like there are tried and true methods that books get discovered, right?
• 40:03
  So one of them is there are development executives for producers and for studios and streamers that are constantly looking for great material
• 40:11
  that will fit whatever the producers mandate is at the time and they find great books the same way we do.
• 40:18
  They look at lists, they're on Amazon, they scroll, they get referrals from friends and family,
• 40:23
  and they read them and the first thing that they're going to do is reach out and say,
• 40:27
  "Are the film and TV rights available for this?"
• 40:30
  That's often before they read anything because if the film and TV rights have already been
• 40:34
  acquired or underoptioned, then that development executive is not necessarily going to want
• 40:38
  to spend the time to read the book.
• 40:41
  That's the discovery process that takes place.
• 40:44
  The other thing is the submission process.
• 40:47
  There are people that represent books in the film and TV space and send them out to producers
• 40:52
  that they have relationships with over and over again because of the conversations they're
• 40:56
  having with different producers, you know, to say, "What is the mandate?
• 40:59
  What are you looking for?"
• 41:01
  And then the representative will say, "Oh, I just read that.
• 41:03
  You should read this."
• 41:05
  So that's another, the submission process.
• 41:07
  So organic discovery, submission process.
• 41:10
  And then the other one is the sexiest because we all love stories if we're working in this
• 41:14
  world and it's the lightning strike event, right, where you get on the elevator and ESA
• 41:19
  Ray is standing there and the elevator gets stopped and she says, "Oh, what do you do?"
• 41:23
  And you say, "I write books."
• 41:24
  And she says, "What kind of books?"
• 41:26
  And then you tell her and she says, "Oh my goodness.
• 41:28
  I want that for my production company."
• 41:30
  So that is the Lightning Strike event, which we all dearly love and it's the sexiest one
• 41:35
  of all.
• 41:35
  Maybe it doesn't happen as often.
• 41:38
  I spent three years riding elevators in LA, three years of my life gone down the drain.
• 41:44
  Yeah.
• 41:45
  You never like bumped into Tom Cruise, Brad Pitt, Issa Rae or Cameron Diaz. No, yes.
• 41:51
  Nobody. Maybe you were riding the wrong elevator. Did you ever think about that?
• 41:56
  You were at Chick-fil-A.
• 42:00
  Really not where they're going to be.
• 42:02
  I was just saying.
• 42:03
  But I would say is writing the best book you possibly can, right? Writing the best book
• 42:09
  that you possibly can and continuing to write and continuing to build your audience because
• 42:13
  There are a number of books that get put under option
• 42:16
  where maybe they're not the splashiest
• 42:18
  or they haven't hit a ton of lists,
• 42:20
  but they do resonate with a producer
• 42:23
  or they do resonate with someone
• 42:25
  who wants to try to develop it into film and TV.
• 42:28
  So, if you think, say, let's use round numbers
• 42:30
  'cause I'm not an accountant,
• 42:32
  you say 10 million books or five million books
• 42:34
  get published a year, a very small number
• 42:36
  get put under option and an even smaller number
• 42:39
  actually get put into production.
• 42:41
  - A much smaller number, right?
• 42:43
  There's so many to get options that go nowhere.
• 42:45
  We hear of this all the time.
• 42:46
  It's a slow moving system.
• 42:49
  So if I was writing the lift up and down
• 42:52
  and I happened to run across somebody of import
• 42:56
  and they said, "Oh, send me your book."
• 42:58
  If this happens to an author in whatever environment
• 43:01
  they get in and they make a contact and they get reached out,
• 43:04
  what's the first thing they should do?
• 43:06
  - Well, they can totally send them the book, right?
• 43:09
  Like, and then any sort of professional,
• 43:11
  So here's the thing, I've been seeing a lot of scams and you have to be really careful,
• 43:15
  right?
• 43:16
  So any professional producer, studio executive, someone like that, when you send them the
• 43:21
  book, if they're interested, they'll be like, "Oh my goodness, let's have a conversation.
• 43:24
  I love this book."
• 43:26
  But then at some point, business affairs, either it's their personal business affairs,
• 43:30
  it's a production company, or the studio business affairs is going to reach out and say, "We
• 43:35
  want to put this under an option agreement or a shopping agreement or an attachment
• 43:41
  agreement."
• 43:41
  or me or someone like me to negotiate that deal on your behalf.
• 43:45
  Because again, we're going back to the conveyance of rights.
• 43:48
  So just recently, I had someone reach out to me.
• 43:50
  It was an author that I don't think that I've ever met personally,
• 43:53
  but she's seen me speak at conferences.
• 43:55
  And she said, I just got this email from someone at Sony.
• 44:00
  Here it is.
• 44:01
  Can you tell me is this real?
• 44:03
  And I looked at the email address, and it had Sony in it,
• 44:06
  but it was like a Gmail something.
• 44:08
  And so I reached out to one of my colleagues
• 44:12
  at Sony Business Affairs and I said, is this real?
• 44:15
  This doesn't look real to me, is it real?
• 44:16
  She goes, I'll get right back with you on this.
• 44:19
  And she conveyed it to their fraud department
• 44:22
  and their fraud department responded to me
• 44:23
  and said, thank you so much for sending this.
• 44:25
  This is a scam and this is what the author should do.
• 44:28
  And one of the things was reporting it to the FBI, right?
• 44:31
  So I forwarded that to the author.
• 44:34
  But the thing is, is that I've been seeing
• 44:35
  more and more of these.
• 44:36
  And the dummy email addresses actually look real.
• 44:40
  Do you know?
• 44:40
  They're like so close.
• 44:41
  - They're brilliant at hiding that stuff.
• 44:43
  We're getting inundated with them lately,
• 44:46
  inundated with different ones.
• 44:47
  - I had one which was a long-term scam,
• 44:49
  meaning that somebody reached out to the author
• 44:52
  and said, "I'm a producer, I really wanna make this,
• 44:55
  "but you have to have a screenplay written."
• 44:57
  And the author said, "Well, I don't write screenplays
• 44:59
  "and I don't know how to do that."
• 45:02
  And they were like, "Okay, well,
• 45:03
  "if you ever decide to do one, let me know."
• 45:05
  And then she got off that phone call.
• 45:07
  And 15 minutes later, somebody called her and said,
• 45:10
  hey, so we're a company that does screenplays for books.
• 45:14
  If you send us $10,000, we'll write the screenplay.
• 45:17
  So that was a long-term scam.
• 45:19
  Here's the thing.
• 45:21
  Money is supposed to flow to the author,
• 45:24
  not away from the author,
• 45:26
  when it comes to producers and studios.
• 45:28
  Producers do not ask authors to pay to write the script
• 45:33
  there then going to take out and pitch, right? It is a producer's job to find the screenplay writer
• 45:39
  to set it up with the studio and then the studio pays the screenplay writer to go to draft. So
• 45:45
  anyone that comes at you and says, give me $5,000 or give me $10,000 or give me $2,000 and I will
• 45:52
  set your project up. That is not traditionally and you hear my caveat because who knows there could
• 45:58
  It could be a new business model out there, but not traditionally how film and TV works.
• 46:03
  Certainly would be if it's a new business model, I don't think I want to be a test guinea
• 46:07
  pig on it.
• 46:08
  Yeah, yeah.
• 46:08
  It's not really my, sure, let me try that.
• 46:11
  And so if it feels sketchy, you know, reach out to me or reach out to another author and
• 46:15
  say, "Hey, have you heard?"
• 46:16
  And then there's still author beware and there's great groups and authors are really great
• 46:21
  at being able to provide feedback or their thoughts or whether or not they've had a similar
• 46:25
  situation, you know?
• 46:28
  So side note real question, because you said one of the things was, I have gotten at least
• 46:32
  three of them from Frida McFadden this week who said my book was brilliant.
• 46:35
  So should we be sending those to the FBI?
• 46:39
  So is it truly, it's not from Frida.
• 46:41
  No, it's a scam.
• 46:42
  It's totally a scam.
• 46:43
  We get them several a day to all of us from, I got one from Sylvia Plath a couple of months
• 46:49
  ago.
• 46:49
  Which is pretty impressive, I have to say.
• 46:51
  A vampire, she's a vampire.
• 46:54
  Sylvia Plath.
• 46:55
  I mean, I would love to if you've reincarnated a that would be a great book by the way
• 47:00
  Sylvia Plath the vampire comes back to co-write something. I think that right there
• 47:04
  Yeah, there's a specific link that they provided that Sony provided and after this
• 47:09
  I will send it to you if you want to have it and it's like a specific space at the FBI to if we have it
• 47:15
  We can throw it in our show. I'm just curious because oh
• 47:18
  Yeah
• 47:20
  Yeah, so now to kind of get back
• 47:23
  That was just kind of blow away. I should be sending all my emails to the FBI that wheel
• 47:28
  Just for for some of us who are less intelligent and like just explain a little bit more with the differences between option
• 47:34
  And and what it really is though as opposed to yes, the shopping agreement
• 47:39
  I mean moving night. Yeah. Yeah, so an option basically is what the what you're being what you're they're asking for is an option to buy
• 47:47
  Right, so the option is a period of time and it's usually 12 months or 18 months and sometimes and usually there's two
• 47:55
  There's the first option period in the extension option period and for that period of time
• 48:00
  You are agreeing that for this amount of money
• 48:02
  You will provide them with this period of time to try to set up the project with studio or streamer or to develop the project
• 48:08
  Right, so let's say it's a 12 month option for $10,000 with an extension
• 48:14
  for another 12 months for
• 48:16
  The first option fee usually is applicable against the purchase price and the second option
• 48:22
  fee usually is non-applicable against the purchase price.
• 48:26
  Now a couple things.
• 48:27
  You can sometimes, producers, studios or streamers will pre-negotiate the purchase price, you
• 48:33
  know, contingent compensation, episodic fees, royalties, all of that at that time.
• 48:40
  Sometimes different producers will say, "Okay, so we're going to put in here that if and
• 48:46
  when the third party financier, studio streamer, whatever entity comes to the party, we will
• 48:53
  negotiate at that time your purchase price for the film and TV rights for your book.
• 48:58
  If you're dealing with like a big studio or streamer like say Netflix, Sony, Warner Brothers,
• 49:05
  HBO, then at that stage you can probably go ahead and negotiate because they're the
• 49:10
  entity that is actually going to be producing it and writing the checks.
• 49:14
  If you're dealing with a producer or an independent producer and they say if and when the third
• 49:19
  party emerges, you can directly negotiate with the studio streamer, that can be a good
• 49:24
  thing.
• 49:25
  And let me explain why.
• 49:26
  It can be a good thing because if that producer does their job well, they will attach, if
• 49:31
  it's an episodic, they'll attach a showrunner or they'll attach an actor.
• 49:35
  If it's a film, they might attach a director, a screenplay writer or a star.
• 49:39
  If they do a good job in packaging the material and attaching those elements, then the value
• 49:45
  of your book or your series may increase.
• 49:48
  Example.
• 49:49
  Say an independent producer who has a few credits comes to you, Doug, and says, "I want
• 49:54
  your best-selling series and I want to put it under an option agreement."
• 49:59
  You will negotiate directly with Netflix or Sony or whoever if and when they decide to
• 50:04
  pick it up.
• 50:04
  The producer happens to be best friends with Brad Pitt.
• 50:08
  He gives Brad the series. Brad says, "Oh my God, I love this series. I want to star in it.
• 50:12
  We're going to run it through Plan B, my production company. I will have business affairs reach out."
• 50:18
  So now business affairs is going to reach out to you or to your representative, and you're going to
• 50:23
  be able to negotiate the film and TV rights for your book series. But your book series now has
• 50:28
  a greater value because Brad Pitt wants to star in it than it might have had before that
• 50:33
  element of the package was added.
• 50:35
  So as long as you're the one or your rep is the one who's directly negotiating
• 50:40
  with the third party, that makes sense.
• 50:42
  I don't advise allowing the producer to be the entity that negotiates on your
• 50:47
  behalf because the producer's agenda while aligned as far as getting it set up
• 50:52
  may not be as aligned with getting you the best deal because they want the
• 50:58
  project to move forward.
• 50:59
  Now, I can say I've never seen a project get hung up at that point because everyone is so all in to get it going and moving, especially if you have a studio who wants it and you have an element that can actually get a green light.
• 51:13
  Very cool.
• 51:14
  Not in words.
• 51:14
  I will say.
• 51:15
  Sorry guys.
• 51:16
  I think Brad Pitt would make it.
• 51:17
  No, perfect.
• 51:17
  I think Brad Pitt would make a great chase, Gordon.
• 51:19
  So he's way too short.
• 51:21
  What are you talking about?
• 51:22
  It'd be like Tom Cruise's Reacher.
• 51:24
  Whatever.
• 51:25
  He can come in and do whatever he wants to with it.
• 51:27
  All right, Maggie, this is thank you for giving us all this time.
• 51:29
  This has been brilliant info.
• 51:31
  And we've got a million more things we'd love to ask you.
• 51:33
  So we've got to get you back on again another later time if you're willing to.
• 51:38
  We have one more question that we'd love to ask you.
• 51:42
  And we have a wheel of random questions with our magic wheel of questions.
• 51:45
  Oh, my golly. I had no idea.
• 51:47
  There was a magic wheel involved.
• 51:49
  It's the magic wheel.
• 51:51
  And we just update all the questions so we get new questions.
• 51:54
  All right, I need to tone you down a little bit, Maggie.
• 51:57
  Don't get that excited.
• 51:58
  It's not that great.
• 52:01
  These are some great questions.
• 52:02
  I put a lot of thought into some of these.
• 52:05
  Maybe not this next one.
• 52:06
  Managed my expectations.
• 52:06
  Some of them.
• 52:07
  Yeah.
• 52:09
  Yeah, don't get your hopes way up there.
• 52:10
  So, oh, OK.
• 52:11
  Hey, you get to play hooky and it is the perfect day.
• 52:15
  What are you going to go do?
• 52:17
  Oh, I guess to play hooky and it's the perfect day, which
• 52:19
  is the perfect day.
• 52:19
  That means my kids are visiting.
• 52:21
  And so we're going to go to the beach.
• 52:23
  We're going to go to the beach in Los Angeles, and then we're going to probably take a picnic
• 52:28
  to the beach, and then we're going to come home and get all the sand off, and then we're
• 52:32
  going to fire up the fire pit in the backyard and maybe have a glass of wine and hang out
• 52:38
  and talk.
• 52:39
  That's the perfect day.
• 52:40
  Nice.
• 52:41
  That's a pretty awesome.
• 52:42
  That sounds relaxing.
• 52:43
  Yeah, fun.
• 52:43
  And then I will go to bed early enough so that I have time to read.
• 52:47
  Do you know what I mean?
• 52:48
  Like, I won't be so exhausted that I can still read.
• 52:50
  Yes.
• 52:51
  Yeah.
• 52:53
  - Yeah, thank you so much for joining us.
• 52:55
  This has been an absolute pleasure for us.
• 52:56
  Thank you, Maggie.
• 52:57
  - Thank you so much.
• 52:58
  I'm so grateful to both of you for asking me to be on.
• 53:01
  So thank you.
• 53:02
  (upbeat music)
• 53:08
  - Thank you so much, Maggie.
• 53:09
  Wow, I've got way too much to think about.
• 53:11
  How about you?
• 53:12
  - No kidding.
• 53:13
  I'm like, oh, I should do this.
• 53:16
  I should do that.
• 53:16
  I should do this.
• 53:17
  - I was like, I was trying not to make notes,
• 53:19
  but I'm over here going, I need to do that.
• 53:21
  - I know.
• 53:21
  I was like, "Well, screw it. I just have to listen to the show and I can make the notes."
• 53:25
  We have to forward this to my wife so she can tell me what to do. Now, it's really great.
• 53:31
  I think it's important. We take for granted all the legal stuff sometimes. I know you
• 53:36
  and I just like the copyright thing that we've talked about with Anthropic. We both wish
• 53:41
  we had our stuff copyrighted, but we didn't. So now, we know ahead of time it's better
• 53:45
  to learn that now for the next thing.
• 53:48
  Yeah, I mean, apart from her being an absolute delight to chat with, she's a lovely lady.
• 53:52
  She's got such a background.
• 53:54
  I mean, she's written a bunch of books, like 20 books, so she's experienced that part of
• 54:00
  it.
• 54:00
  You know, she's been in every element of the entertainment business that we, as authors,
• 54:05
  might forever branch out into her wealth of experience.
• 54:09
  And the fact that she'll do concerts and stuff over the phone and some Zoom calls without
• 54:15
  a charge.
• 54:16
  of, really, really very cool.
• 54:18
  Her name, she's definitely been around.
• 54:20
  So, I mean, if you're looking for somebody, you have a question about the business, you
• 54:24
  know, we didn't just pull her out.
• 54:26
  I've seen her at 20 Books of Authorization.
• 54:29
  We know lots of good people who use her.
• 54:32
  Her name comes up in every circle.
• 54:34
  If you talk about doing a contract for the author business, her name is immediately mentioned.
• 54:39
  Yep.
• 54:39
  So, definitely worth doing.
• 54:41
  It's so smart.
• 54:42
  I'm just blown away by it.
• 54:43
  So, very, very cool.
• 54:45
  And guys remember that we had a really great two-parter kind of a question on our patreon
• 54:49
  So if you'd like there's one a little bit I didn't get you know jump over that patreon
• 54:53
  It's three dollars a month and you can get these bonus questions from her
• 54:57
  Just check us out if you find us at all valuable so or her valuable then that's worth
• 55:02
  She's very valuable. Yeah, we're worth chip and she's very valuable. You know what else is more valuable?
• 55:09
  Hello, so we want to make sure we thank our brads. Thank you vellum appreciate the support
• 55:13
  Thank you so much. Make sure if you're thinking a full man about vellum
• 55:17
  Check it out. Check out show notes for links to Maggie and if she gets us the link the FBI
• 55:23
  You can drop in those fake scam letters there. Who knows?
• 55:27
  Yes, send your love notes to the FBI. All right until next time be cool to each other
• 55:32
  Fair wins and following the scenes
• 55:35
  You've been listening to the two authors podcast with Nicholas Harvey and Douglas Pratt
• 55:40
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