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From IT to Change Management: John Deel's 42-Year Journey · Better Together

• Shawn Sundsvold: Hey everyone and welcome back to Better Together, the podcast that shares the stories, the lessons, and the practical advice from founders and leaders that can help you improve your business. I'm your host, Sean Sonsvold, along with my partner in life and business, Kelly Sonsvold. John Deal has spent more than four decades helping organizations navigate change at the highest levels. As the CEO of CloseWork Consulting Partners and a globally respected organizational change management expert, John has logged over 32,000 client billable hours, leading transformation initiatives around the world. From the boardroom to the shop floor, he's passionate about helping people embrace change, lead with confidence, and build businesses that thrive through uncertainty. Today we're talking leadership, reinvention, and the human side of change. John, welcome to the show. Thank you so much for joining us today. John Deel: Well, Sean and Kelly, thank you so much. ⁓ It's a pleasure to be here to share with the people that might have a chance to listen later on. So I'm here to give back to whoever might be wanting to lend a ear today. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, I appreciate that. And you had such an amazing career when we first talked a couple of months ago, and I got to hear your story. I was just so amazed by it and all the different things you've done to help with so many different organizations. So let's kind of start there. So for people who are kind of hearing you for the first time or don't know you, tell us a little bit about who you are and what you do. John Deel: you Yeah. Well, first of all, I'm blessed to be in a position now where I don't have to work and travel as hard as I used to because I put 42 years into business and it's that traditional business, you know, ⁓ that anybody can do math, look at my LinkedIn profile and I'll put a plug in for that. Your professional digital identity today in the marketplace bar none according to John. is your LinkedIn profile. It represents your digital identity globally. Okay, so you can look at that, figure out all the nuances and all kinds of things. You can actually look at some other podcasts and that will give you that history. basically, traditionally coming out of Virginia Tech with a comp sci degree and I had a goal before I entered that to be a computer scientist and work for IBM. Now I was a a weird 17 year old, my dad and mom said, nobody goes into a yellow pad in the back room, because I'll tell you, I'm 67 years old. I graduated from high school in 1977. that's what we did. And so I said, I want to get a comp sci degree and work for IBM. And guess what happened? That's exactly what I did. And then that first 20 years of my career, I'm like, I want to. make sure the pie chart, everybody understands the pie chart is divided in half. The first half of it was right doing the stuff that I was trained to do. Work as a computer scientist. At the lowest level, all the way to the CIO level, which is now still currently the highest level you can get in IT. So I got all the way up there at 20 years. I didn't like it after a year in that office, in that corner office, big old high rise in Houston, looking out over the city. No. I said, what am I gonna do now? Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. John Deel: And so I said, I got to make it. I cannot do this for another 20 or 30, whatever, how many more years I have to So I retired that career met up with some folks from, believe it not, the UK that needed a technology guy like me. Because they were 20 some years ago, the technology world was starting to get the big things happening. ERPs, CRMs, these ⁓ all these big application. And they didn't know anything about it. because they were, believe it or not, a behavioral change company. So I said, John, we need somebody to talk technology. We'll teach you the change bit. I didn't know what change management was. But I know I had some personal skills inside me that Virginia Tech didn't teach me. That was passed down from my parents and just the way I am as a human being, that maybe I'm not leveraging some of the other skill sets I have. Unfortunately, it took me 20-some years to figure that out. So for those of you out there, if you can figure out what's your passion, what's inside, what your real skills are, man, figure it out earlier than I did. But that's what, so then the second half is the half where Sean said something about building 32,000 plus hours. Because to do change management work, you can't do that from a cube in an office. You have to be where the people are change behaviors. So that's took that second half. So first 20 in IT, second 20 in change to the point where I said, yeah, after 42 years, maybe I'm comfortable enough to where I don't have to work for myself or someone else anymore. And that's kind of where I'm at right now today. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, it's a great place to be. mean, you know, before we started here, we talking about fishing and golf and, you know, I think that's the dream for a lot of entrepreneurs is to be able to have that financial freedom and be able to be in charge of their life, ⁓ is, you know, we didn't set out for that, but that was what, you know, was a byproduct that we absolutely love about owning our own businesses, being able to direct our own path in life. John Deel: Exactly. Kelly Sundsvold: So you've spent decades in organizational change, management, logging, you said 32,000 client billable hours for ⁓ companies navigate that change. When hear that number out loud, what goes your mind? John Deel: another number. Now forgive me, I told you I was a computer science major, a double major in computer science and mathematics, but nobody cares about my BS in mathematics. Okay. So when you hear that number, I hear 3.2 million. hear a number called 3.2 million. So I'll explain to what that is. That is 3.2 million miler with Delta. Shawn Sundsvold: Wow. John Deel: So what that means is leave on Sunday, Monday, come back on Thursday, Friday, add water, stir, repeat on Sunday, do it Friday. Week after week after week. And unfortunately, of all the 22 years doing that, 32, only one client in Atlanta won. The rest of them were. all over the United States and all over the world as far as Australia and Saudi Arabia and all kinds of places. Even places where you wouldn't want to take your family on vacation. So that number drives that other number. That's one way of looking at it. But I'll tell you, the only way I could have done that I had a passion inside here. to help people in the workplace because they were challenged by some kind of change, whether it's merger acquisition, this large technology thing that they're scared to death of. They're a big reorganization about to happen and they think they're going to get fired. my God, we're in money troubles. You name the transformation. I've been involved. It's not all technology. And then I get slapped right in the middle of it because people start to think I was pretty good at it. The company started... and John you're here to help us through that and that's don't regret now because people say well man he must have sacrificed a lot yeah that's another conversation we'd have with my 24 year old now daughter so yes I missed some things but I tried to make up for it when I got home thought I just had a short window and it's things called vacation So I was definitely family focused when I got off that plane because that's what I wanted to be. I really wanted to be in that. But I felt like I got to be a provider for my family. got to do what's right. I do what I feel. And maybe all that will work out one day. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. I think there's something to that in the sense of, you know, as entrepreneurs, we've taken a risk, right? You know, you're taking a risk, stepping away from a, you know, a comfortable nine to five job, right? And all of a sudden it's now on you, right? All the money, all the stress, all the things to make it work, it's on you. And that's a lot of, I think, you we talked about this at the beginning, but this is, that's a lot of our audience, right? They're entrepreneurs, they're people building businesses, they're carrying that weight, right? John Deel: Yeah. Shawn Sundsvold: So let's talk through that a little bit when you John Deel: Let me help you with that for a second because this is some stuff I want to encourage people that are listening here. Seventy, eighty percent of that time employed, I was working for somebody else. Okay? Three times I did what maybe some people on this call did. Start from scratch. Three businesses. Don't laugh at the first one. With a thought of doing what some people might be thinking about doing. I don't want to work for IBM. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. John Deel: I wanna do my own thing. Shawn Sundsvold: Right. John Deel: I was working as a disc jockey in Washington DC as I was doing the IBM thing. IBM transferred me to Atlanta. I came to Atlanta in 1989. I've been here ever since. It's not where I'm originally from. I'm originally from Baltimore, Washington, metropolitan area. But I was DJing up there with a good friend of mine. I get to Atlanta, single, life in front of me, cost of living different. said, I started a DJ business. And honest to God, I got ... Disclose. Running the spreadsheets and all the analysis say, know what, I could quit IBM and be a disc jockey here in Atlanta. Now, disc jockey, not on the radio. I'm talking about parties, weddings, corporate, all that. Bar mitzvahs, you name it. And I was doing really well and man, the money was like, I was like, I can have two people. And then I'm stuck, I said it was that close, but guess what? This happens to all of us. That little fear thing, ⁓ I can't do that. Shawn Sundsvold: Hmm. John Deel: John, you crazy. I did that with that business? Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. John Deel: When I got married, I still worked for IBM, started, or with Accenture at the time, started a full on dressage import facility importing 250,000 to $500,000 dressage horses from Denmark, Europe, and bringing them over here to Monroe, Georgia, because my wife had a passion for horses and training horses, and she was really good at it. So that's twice. And I was thinking, well, heck, we'll just ... Shawn Sundsvold: Wow. John Deel: I'll just quit traveling around and we'll run this import facility out of Monroe, Georgia, living on a beautiful farm. Things happen. sets in. ⁓ I've tried, like I've tried a couple of times. And so I don't regret doing those things because it just taught me so much to try to have your own business, right? And do like you said, you have to, you are marketing, you are sales, you are operations, you're pulling cables, you're mucking stalls and building fences, right? So. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. John Deel: If people can do that and really get out of their own way and do that, boy, I'd cheerlead for you. And just so you know that, didn't fail at doing that, but man, you have to kind get out of your way to do that. And I really wish everybody, to be honest with you, that once that opportunity to do that, can somehow figure out and get help how to do that. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah, I think, you you mentioned it, you tried three or four different businesses. Each time you got to that point where it was like, hmm, maybe. What you every single time? What was the fear sitting in the back of your mind and why you didn't make that jump when that happened? John Deel: Well, for me, because I'm so old school, I was raised to the provider. So for your family. Now, I know, don't laugh at me or throw things at me, but that's just the way I didn't know any better because that's all what I saw. So ⁓ me a decision to go try to do something which would impact that situation. creeped in on us, I can't do that. Plus, in my particular case, I was doing fairly well in corporate America, except for putting up with some stuff. I I was doing pretty well financially. Okay, so to be able to sit here, I mean, and I'm not a fighter, my brother's my financial advisor. He's smarter than me. He's got a PhD in civil engineering from Virginia Tech, and I wrote in his script tales. He's a multi-millionaire. We both fight our financial advisors. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. John Deel: I said, Cliff, will you help me manage my money? And we laid it out on the table, right? And he coached me along for free. He said, John, I can get you in the spotter. I can tell you where you need to be if you want to wake up every day and not worry about money anymore. Now, money is all relative and how long we're going to live is all relative, right? So these are things people have to, you you have to figure out. I'm not spending much time figuring out anymore. Right? I'm living like Kelly, you heard me say, and I'm not trying to be bragged, but I work my tailbone off to be in a position right now, or over the last two years since I retired, visually, whatever that means, retired, left corporate America, Capgemini, to, wake up and I don't even know what day it is. Am I golfing today? I get all of Kathy, my lovely wife's to-do list done today? Or can I push one till tomorrow? I think I'm just going to sit by the pool. And I'm not trying, but I freaking deserve it. And you know what, what I like about it, I feel like I deserve it, but all my circle around me goes, John, you deserve it. Cause they saw how we sacrifice just like the people that are trying to do what we're talking about here. You had to sacrifice, you continue to sacrifice both of you. Right? And so are these people that are trying to do startups and stuff like that. They're continuing to make these sacrifices. It's a little bit different in this day and age, you will agree, than it was maybe when I was pulling through, but it still hits you in the head and heart. You gotta make some decisions. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah, yeah, for sure. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, for sure. Shawn Sundsvold: Go ahead, Kelly. Kelly Sundsvold: All right. So you've helped organizations navigate change all over the world. Personally, what was ⁓ of the hardest changes you've ever had to navigate? John Deel: When I showed up in Tennessee at a plant called Roman Haas. and they go, John, we need to set you down here. Sometimes I was solo. They weren't a team of people. I if I had to bring people in, it depends upon, but this particular one is no, they just wanted my brain thoughts or whatever. We're about three or four months from payroll, making payroll. This is a multi-billion dollar company. Let me see if I hear that right. Now, of course, I'm in the corner office. with the big guys. Okay, so we need to take about a third of the workforce. I, believe it or not, you hope, hopefully you think that I'm a friend, I'm about the most non-confrontational human being on earth. I don't like confrontation. I don't like hurting people. I knew that I'm like, holy crap, how am I gonna take out a third of these plants? They're running three shifts in this plant. So the hardest things in that change world, Kelly, back to you is that when you have to do stuff that really you know fundamentally is gonna hurt people's lives. I think when you tell people they don't have a job anymore, I mean, then they have a family and they're living in a trailer park. I mean, these are people that I had to touch in anyway. So that kind of transformational work when it's very abrupt and not a good ending kind of thing is extremely hard for me. Thank goodness I didn't get many of those because that's, that's, I would rather go in and go, okay, guys, you guys are scared of Salesforce. How can you, it's an application. It's a customer relationship. I will. hold your hand all the way from that yellow pad to what button to hit on that screen. Don't worry, it's okay. You're not gonna get replaced, you're not gonna get fired. But you need to buckle up and learn with me and I won't leave out of here until I know that you can run your department at least as good or better than whatever it was before. See the difference? That's a huge difference. It's like I'm pulling people through a life. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Yeah. John Deel: thing in the workplace. They still get to go home and have the barbecue on the weekend. But yeah, so that's, that's, that was a big difference there. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. Yeah. One of the things I get from you as we've talked, you know, now multiple times was that, you know, very compassionate. You love people, right? you know, and, and you, ⁓ one your goals in, in the change management side of things was making things less exhausting for the people that you were doing this with. So, ⁓ you what is it, why do you think so many organizations underestimate ⁓ the, human side of change and the, the challenge that it's going to be to kind of bring people along? John Deel: I wish we could figure out the answer to that, but here's the thing. I was game-bleeding employed for 22 years around the world with Accenture charging me out at a number that I don't care. say it. But to your point, I still don't... All the people that I know that are still in this field that I conversed with a couple of them, they're not hurting for work. Getting people to change behaviors that they've done over and over again is still not an easy thing and AI is not going to fix it. Neither is technology. Neither is Kelly or Sean all by themselves. Now, if you take someone like me who's been there, done it, there, so I've got some experience but it's all on the job with a target on my back. Experience. I'll explain that. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. John Deel: In Saudi Arabia, I'm working for Accenture. The client is the equivalent of our Federal Reserve in the United States. It's called the Saudi Arabian Monetary Agency. Somehow, I was over there a year. I got to come home every six weeks for a week, then I had to go back. But somehow it slipped out in the hallways that Accenture was billing me out. at $400 now. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. John Deel: And some of the people in that agency didn't. They're like, is the craziest thing we've ever heard. And I'd be walking down to get a cup of coffee and I'm not running to get a cup of coffee. I'm walking at a normal pace and coming back. Well, that just cost us $79. So really hard to understand even still today as I talked to some like my Accenture people or even some independent consultant people. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. John Deel: They don't hurt, the economy kind of messes things up some, but they don't hurt for the same problem that we're having. Trying to change something from within is still difficult. And I don't know if they're trying to teach that in university or what. other words, companies still need somebody on the outside to come in and help them navigate through that. Cause I guess they're just not wired that way or it's something that they don't have to do every day. So they just need some kind of. somebody to think it through and help guide them through it better. I would totally be an advocate of this field. Just like if you wanna sell medical devices, I think that's not a bad field, but it's not gonna go away, because it's fundamentally changing human behavior. And that's my belief, because I don't think we're gonna be replaced by robots and AI. And you're talking to a technology guy, by the way, so. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, so we live on that, being replaced by robots. ⁓ live in a world that's completely changing technology, ⁓ AI, ⁓ models, expectations. Do you think people today are more resistant to change or simply more by it? ⁓ John Deel: I think sometimes overwhelming, would put that in front of the other one. a naturally human behavior for change. Some people don't, some people do. Put whatever target in front of that. Just like this whole thing with ⁓ AI stuff like that. But ⁓ I is that these are all ⁓ technology, AI all that are just accelerators for what the Kelly and the Shawns and the Johns and the people listening do for a living or do for a passion. They're accelerates, they're enhancers, but we're still running, we, still running the show. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. John Deel: Now I know and you guys know we make a phone call especially pick one T-bubble. If you can talk to a live human being within 18 minutes show me the secret. It's all, right? So now there are people thinking that's accelerating things and taking people, but sometimes it works. guess sometimes it doesn't. They ain't smart enough to figure out John Deere's little problem or Sean's little challenge with this plan or whatever, right? So I still think there's, you know, it's almost funny like I'd like to go sneak back into the university and see. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah. Mm-hmm. John Deel: what an organizational change management degree and what are they teaching, what it looks like. Because I never went through it. I learned 32,000 hours on the job. Now, if some people almost pay money for my book list, I'll give it to you guys for free. I have a book list and I read all these books. said, how did John get so smart? Cause I'm really not that smart, I read a lot of books in this field. I don't read these, one of these novels that talk stories and you have to imagine stuff. No, I read stuff that was business, book related to change management. So every, any luminary in this field, I read their book. Change the culture, change the game. I got brought into a client and said, John, we need to change the culture here. I went out and seeked out the authors who wrote that book and now I'm going to sign it. I said, look, I've read that book twice. You need to help me. I just got stuck into a client and they think I'm the cultural change specialist. I'm like, you got to be kidding me. They wrote the book, right? So we have to continue to learn. I'm still learning today, even I don't have to learn it quite as much. Kelly, I have to learn, John, I have to learn how to complete my ... I always completed my business to do this really good because what could we do? Shawn Sundsvold: You John Deel: Where's it at? Oh We put it on this Right and it reminds you to do stuff. This is an unbelievable device and I was tethered to that 24-7 while I was working Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. John Deel: Not anymore. I learned there's a silence button and I hit it. And people go, John, where are you at? I don't know. I'm on the golf course. I was on the golf. Well, why are you getting back with me at eight o'clock at night? I wish that for everybody's listening. Shawn Sundsvold: for sure. John Deel: to be untethered to technology and tethered to what's really in your hearts or your families or whatever that thing that you pick, that one or two things that you pick that really makes you wanna live and get up the next day. I'm just saying, I'm there now, but it took me a long, time. So keep after what you're doing. Hopefully that you can get there one day. I wish that forever. Shawn Sundsvold: Totally agree. Yeah, that space to sort of and to teach and to get away from being connected to all the different things. ⁓ you to, I don't know, ⁓ I the opportunity for space personally. You know, anytime I can shut my phone off and disappear for a couple hours or a couple days, ⁓ right? ⁓ especially business owners, you need that recharge, right? So. John Deel: It's harder. don't know. Yeah, it's hard. can see, especially with the people that are entrepreneurial and they're trying to do this not just by themselves, but what if they have a spouse or a significant other and family? Holy Mackler. And then this whole thing that's going on with, what do you, it's on this back, if we get to like social media or branding and stuff, like it's gotten to the point where I tell people, said before Walter Conkrai, we get it. And he goes, that's the way it is. And you watch that news and you believe probably 95 % of what he was saying. I said, now there's this whole thing going on. What is really true? What is really real? You really don't know. mean, look at some of it. So it makes it much more difficult for people trying to navigate growing a business in a space where they're trying to figure out what's real or what's true. Or maybe that's half true. Oh, my Lord. Shawn Sundsvold: Mm-hmm. John Deel: That's the challenge in front of the younger generation that's trying to do some of these things. I that to my 24 year old daughter who's graduated now ⁓ and her first job. She's got a whole different thing in front of her. Where dad, he can help you little bit, but I helped you in the first 24. Because that's where some of these fundamentals were built. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah, for sure. Well, John, it was a pleasure having you on the podcast. You mentioned people can find you on LinkedIn. it just under your name? Is there a business one that they can find you under? John Deel: John Deal. And ⁓ I just, ⁓ ⁓ have a second just for some parting words, if I didn't make it clear in beginning. Kelly Sundsvold: Awesome. We'll think. Yeah, of course. John Deel: Find a way where people can find out who you are, but they don't know who you are. So that's why I said LinkedIn. Why do I get at 67 years old, two or three calls a week or email from around the globe? Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. John Deel: I don't know who they are, but they have one place to go and they see something in there. They see my infographic, which you could laugh at today. It wouldn't even pass any AI. They see a podcast. What's John Deale doing on Tech Diva? Yeah, my brand might be a little bit, it's not too dusty, but for some reason, young people building business or want to talk to me about this field or want me to come help them are finding me and I don't even know who they are. So whatever that mechanism is, We, you have to do that because that's just leverage. Cause then you're not, someone's finding you and you're not having to chase them to listen to you or come give you money or whatever. So that's one of the things that I've learned and I still am a firm believer in that. Build a brand, build reach, build it globally. If I can do it with all by myself, kind of. I mean, I had a little help along the way. then I tell everybody to just listen to this and everybody can do it. And that will help you grow your presence in the marketplace. If that's what I think as a young company, you have to grow your presence unless you got a million dollars, two or three million dollars, and someone's funding you in the background. I mean, you got to be heard. You got to be known. So I hope that everybody gets there. Kelly Sundsvold: Yeah. Right. Shawn Sundsvold: Yeah Kelly Sundsvold: Awesome. Well, thank you so much, John. Appreciate the time. And yeah, we look forward to ⁓ what else you do in retirement. ⁓ think ⁓ deserved. So thank you so much. John Deel: Yeah, and my contact information is there too. anybody that I'm an open networker, my phone number is there, my email, everything. So they just click on that John Dillon LinkedIn and I don't, if I can get back with you, I will. If I don't feel moved, well, that's the way it is. But you know, there's no reason why you can't find me and chat with me. Okay. Kelly Sundsvold: Sounds good. All right. Thank you so much, John. Shawn Sundsvold: Awesome. John Deel: It's been a pleasure. Thank you. We'll see you.