Latest / RECOVERable: Mental Health and Addiction Experts Answer Your Questions / How to Quit Drinking With the 12 Step Program Explained

Transcript

How to Quit Drinking With the 12 Step Program Explained · RECOVERable: Mental Health and Addiction Experts Answer Your Questions

• 0:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting we call this step one, but it's really probably like step 784.
• 0:20
  SPEAKER_03: Recovery advocate Cliff McDonald joins us to break down each of the 12 steps of Alcoholics Anonymous and why they remain a cornerstone of addiction recovery.
• 0:30
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard not to say this all sounds really difficult for people who are saying, stop saying God, I don't believe in God.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_03: I think just substitute God with higher power.
• 0:41
  SPEAKER_03: It would be easier for so many people if each step said higher power of your understanding instead of capital G God and Capital H Him.
• 0:52
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome to Recoverable.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_03: I'm your host, Terry McGuire.
• 0:55
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back to part two of our deep dive into Alcoholics Anonymous or AA.
• 1:00
  SPEAKER_03: Today we are walking step by step through all 12 steps of AA, demystifying what each one actually asks of a person, how they build on one another, and how this decades-old blueprint operates in real life.
• 1:14
  SPEAKER_03: Joining us again for this discussion is my colleague, recovery advocate Cliff McDonald, who has been working the AA program for almost a decade.
• 1:22
  SPEAKER_03: Welcome back.
• 1:23
  SPEAKER_03: Hi, Terry.
• 1:24
  SPEAKER_03: It's great to be here again.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_03: I look forward to going through these because I think we've all heard of the 12 steps of AA, but I don't know how many of us could actually name maybe any, or certainly not more than one or two.
• 1:36
  SPEAKER_03: So let's do this.
• 1:38
  SPEAKER_03: All right, let's go.
• 1:39
  SPEAKER_03: All right, let's start with the first three steps sort of come under the heading of surrender and mindset, as you well know.
• 1:46
  SPEAKER_03: And they build on one another.
• 1:48
  SPEAKER_03: So I'm going to read the step and then ask some questions that people are asking about it.
• 1:53
  SPEAKER_03: So step one, we admitted we were powerless over alcohol and that our lives had become unmanageable.
• 1:59
  SPEAKER_03: Why is that important to say and believe?
• 2:02
  SPEAKER_00: It's huge, right?
• 2:04
  SPEAKER_00: Step one.
• 2:05
  SPEAKER_00: Um, the steps are designed to work in a sequential order.
• 2:09
  SPEAKER_00: So if you don't do step one, you're not going to get very far.
• 2:13
  SPEAKER_00: It's also a huge ask.
• 2:16
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 2:17
  SPEAKER_00: Out of the gate.
• 2:18
  SPEAKER_00: Admitted we were powerless.
• 2:20
  SPEAKER_00: Big word.
• 2:21
  SPEAKER_00: It is over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.
• 2:25
  SPEAKER_00: I've also heard it's the only step that you need to get perfect.
• 2:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I think the reason why that exists is most alcoholics have proven that drinking is correlated with lots and lots of problems.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_00: So there really are no gray areas with this.
• 2:46
  SPEAKER_00: It's black or white.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_00: Like it, and you know, the disease is a terminal disease.
• 2:52
  SPEAKER_00: And if I drink, I'm going to die eventually, right?
• 2:56
  SPEAKER_00: For a real alcoholic, that is true.
• 2:58
  SPEAKER_00: This is heavy.
• 3:00
  SPEAKER_00: Admitted we were powerless over alcohol, that our lives had become unmanageable.
• 3:04
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting we call this step one, but it's really probably like step 7804.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_00: You know what I mean?
• 3:12
  SPEAKER_00: By the time someone gets into AA, right?
• 3:16
  SPEAKER_00: And we say no one gets there on a winning streak, right?
• 3:19
  SPEAKER_00: So there's a lot that preceded getting to the point where you have to contemplate step one.
• 3:24
  SPEAKER_00: People that don't have to go feel more pain.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_00: They'll do more pain.
• 3:29
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 3:30
  SPEAKER_00: They're not ready yet for some reason.
• 3:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting.
• 3:34
  SPEAKER_00: For some people, step one is easy.
• 3:36
  SPEAKER_00: Specifically, I think the latter half of step one.
• 3:40
  SPEAKER_00: So if we get someone that might be hesitant to admit that they're powerless, you could quickly shift to well, how's how's life?
• 3:52
  SPEAKER_00: How's the relationship with your children?
• 3:54
  SPEAKER_00: How's your job going if you have one?
• 3:58
  SPEAKER_00: I saw you came here in an Uber.
• 4:01
  SPEAKER_00: Why is that?
• 4:02
  SPEAKER_00: So admitting that life is unmanageable, I think it's easier.
• 4:09
  SPEAKER_00: Why is it unmanageable?
• 4:11
  SPEAKER_00: So it's interesting.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Some people, sure, let's do it.
• 4:13
  SPEAKER_00: They talk about the importance of willingness, right?
• 4:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I think a good sponsor coaches you really well to don't overthink these things.
• 4:24
  SPEAKER_00: Alcoholics are good at overthinking and interpreting things the way they want to interpret things.
• 4:32
  SPEAKER_00: What's interesting though is that there can be real relief from a surrender.
• 4:39
  SPEAKER_00: So some people talk about when they finally did a step one, they quit.
• 4:44
  SPEAKER_00: I'm done.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: Quit drinking.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 4:46
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 4:47
  SPEAKER_00: It's over.
• 4:48
  SPEAKER_00: Thank God.
• 4:49
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's hard and it's miserable.
• 4:52
  SPEAKER_00: So it can be a real relief too.
• 4:55
  SPEAKER_00: Admitted we were powerless over alcohol.
• 4:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, man, I'm done.
• 4:59
  SPEAKER_00: Can you admit when you get your ass kicked?
• 5:02
  SPEAKER_00: Can you admit when someone has beaten you in a tennis match, in a wrestling match, in a swimming role?
• 5:08
  SPEAKER_00: Of course you can't.
• 5:10
  SPEAKER_00: I just got beat.
• 5:11
  SPEAKER_00: Why can't you admit that you got beat by this thing?
• 5:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's weird.
• 5:15
  SPEAKER_00: But the disease is cunning, baffling, and powerful, and it puts people in a position where they can't make rational decisions.
• 5:22
  SPEAKER_00: We talked about different personas.
• 5:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's a group that struggles here more than other groups, and I've seen this group a lot, I think because I used to be one, which are uh successful men uh that have had success in life, either, you know, professionally, academically, socially, athletically.
• 5:45
  SPEAKER_00: Our society tells us a lot that I'm the reason for my success.
• 5:50
  SPEAKER_00: And we talk about rugged individualism and the self-made man.
• 5:55
  SPEAKER_00: All of these things really contribute to ego development.
• 6:00
  SPEAKER_00: So asking a guy like that to admit that he's powerless is hard to do.
• 6:06
  SPEAKER_00: And you see a lot of guys like that die because they're not willing to do step one.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_03: And you brought up we can admit losing whatever in sports or any other area of life.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_03: I think one difference might be that you think you can win the next time.
• 6:22
  SPEAKER_03: And powerless is implying or saying straight up, you're not gonna win, period.
• 6:27
  SPEAKER_03: So I see how it could be more difficult to acknowledge than a loss.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_00: Absolutely.
• 6:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that this is it's over.
• 6:36
  SPEAKER_00: Me and alcohol are done.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_00: That used to be in my life and it's not anymore.
• 6:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's a big first step.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 6:43
  SPEAKER_00: It really is.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_00: Having a guide is great.
• 6:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think also just doing it.
• 6:49
  SPEAKER_00: And and what a good coach or sponsor will do will say, hey, we're gonna go through these steps.
• 6:54
  SPEAKER_00: There's the first one.
• 6:55
  SPEAKER_00: Admitted we were powerless over alcohol.
• 6:57
  SPEAKER_00: That allows it to become unmanageable.
• 6:59
  SPEAKER_00: Are you okay with that?
• 7:00
  SPEAKER_00: Sure.
• 7:01
  SPEAKER_00: Let's go.
• 7:02
  SPEAKER_00: I think that's the best way to do it.
• 7:04
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I get hung up on that, I'm not powerless.
• 7:06
  SPEAKER_00: What are you talking about?
• 7:07
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 7:08
  SPEAKER_00: You know, what does that mean?
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_00: Don't think about it too much.
• 7:12
  SPEAKER_03: As a sponsor, that's what you recommend to people.
• 7:15
  SPEAKER_00: It can be so interesting dealing with newcomers and people who are in it and their lives are messy.
• 7:22
  SPEAKER_00: They don't see clearly.
• 7:24
  SPEAKER_00: So sometimes they can't see how messy it is.
• 7:28
  SPEAKER_00: And you can ask them questions that will help them to see a little bit that, yeah, things aren't good.
• 7:35
  SPEAKER_00: And no one gets their own winning streak.
• 7:37
  SPEAKER_00: So that that part of it, an experienced sponsor will help someone see pretty clearly that their life is unmanageable and powerlessness, admitting powerlessness and that go hand in hand.
• 7:49
  SPEAKER_00: And as you know, we're admitting powerlessness right now.
• 7:54
  SPEAKER_00: That's temporary because there will be some power that comes back to us.
• 7:59
  SPEAKER_03: In a very different way.
• 8:01
  SPEAKER_03: A second step is came to believe a power greater than ourselves could restore us to sanity.
• 8:06
  SPEAKER_03: Sanity is a big word.
• 8:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 8:09
  SPEAKER_00: Came to believe that a power greater than ourselves.
• 8:13
  SPEAKER_00: So we have just admitted we are powerless.
• 8:15
  SPEAKER_00: Step one, and that's not fun.
• 8:18
  SPEAKER_00: I'm powerless, right?
• 8:19
  SPEAKER_00: Am I in trouble?
• 8:20
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how am I going to be successful?
• 8:22
  SPEAKER_00: How am I going to rebuild?
• 8:23
  SPEAKER_00: How am I going to do anything if I don't have any power?
• 8:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, right away, right?
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: Next step came to believe that a power, a power greater than ourselves, could restore us to sanity.
• 8:35
  SPEAKER_00: So we're going to be able to harness something that exists that we haven't been aware of, or we haven't learned how to harness it or how to use it, that could restore us to sanity.
• 8:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, that's heavy.
• 8:51
  SPEAKER_00: So if I have to be restored to sanity, that suggests that my current state is lack of sanity or insanity.
• 9:03
  SPEAKER_00: And that's absolutely true.
• 9:05
  SPEAKER_00: This terminology is from 1935.
• 9:09
  SPEAKER_00: Alcoholism, addiction were not classified by the American Medical Association at that time.
• 9:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't even know what the status of the AMA was at that time.
• 9:18
  SPEAKER_00: They have since been classified as serious mental illnesses.
• 9:23
  SPEAKER_00: So a serious mental illness, we know, is a brain disease.
• 9:27
  SPEAKER_00: And you are insane.
• 9:29
  SPEAKER_00: So insanity for me, when I think what does that mean?
• 9:32
  SPEAKER_00: It means that I don't see things clearly.
• 9:35
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have a good understanding of how things work.
• 9:39
  SPEAKER_00: A brain disease that impacts, if you look at how the brain is impacted by chronic alcohol use, the area of the brain that's responsible for decision making and cognitive functioning is impacted significantly.
• 9:53
  SPEAKER_00: So if I don't have those tools and I have rendered those tools, you know, unavailable or ineffective, then unfortunately, yes, in that current state, I am insane.
• 10:06
  SPEAKER_00: However, there is hope, right, that somehow I'm going to be restored to sanity.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_03: I can tell it's old language.
• 10:15
  SPEAKER_03: It is old language because we just don't use those words anymore.
• 10:19
  SPEAKER_00: And the language in AA has been, I don't know if you would say like honoring their past or um they like tradition, stubborn.
• 10:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the right terminology is, but they have not modified the syntax, uh, the grammar, the usage, the style of the language very much.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And there's some really goofy things that you would hear that you would never hear today.
• 10:45
  SPEAKER_00: Like there's something in the beginning of chapter five, how it works, which is read at most meetings.
• 10:50
  SPEAKER_00: It's like, what an order.
• 10:52
  SPEAKER_00: I can't go through with it.
• 10:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like no one says that today, right?
• 10:56
  SPEAKER_00: So we do need a little bit of help with translating sometimes.
• 10:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's what you're here for today.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I don't know about that, but we'll do our best.
• 11:03
  SPEAKER_03: So AA's third step is made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.
• 11:09
  SPEAKER_00: How do you turn it over?
• 11:11
  SPEAKER_00: This is hard.
• 11:12
  SPEAKER_00: Really, really, really hard.
• 11:14
  SPEAKER_00: Made a decision to turn our will and our lives over to the care of God as we understood him.
• 11:21
  SPEAKER_00: There's so much in here.
• 11:22
  SPEAKER_00: Number one is the G word, which scares a lot of people away.
• 11:28
  SPEAKER_00: What does that even mean?
• 11:29
  SPEAKER_00: People that have had bad experiences with God, or it's a wrathful God.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_03: Or they have different faiths, or they have they don't believe in God.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 11:39
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 11:40
  SPEAKER_00: The as we understood him is important.
• 11:42
  SPEAKER_00: This can be your interpretation.
• 11:47
  SPEAKER_00: What do you want God to be?
• 11:49
  SPEAKER_00: It can be nature.
• 11:50
  SPEAKER_00: It could be your dog, it could be your family.
• 11:54
  SPEAKER_00: Um, some people say G-O-D is group of drunks.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_00: Um, it just can't be you.
• 11:59
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_00: But turning our will in our lives, what does that mean?
• 12:05
  SPEAKER_00: What am I giving to this other thing that I used to control?
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_00: Those are our thoughts and our actions.
• 12:13
  SPEAKER_00: Our will is our thought.
• 12:14
  SPEAKER_00: How do I think?
• 12:16
  SPEAKER_00: What are my thoughts?
• 12:17
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not going to direct my thoughts anymore.
• 12:21
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to let God direct my thoughts the way I act.
• 12:26
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to turn that over as well.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_00: This is a common stalling point.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: Yes.
• 12:33
  SPEAKER_00: There will be a lot of people, newcomers, who are stuck on step three.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_00: I had a very powerful experience doing a step three at a residential treatment center in a chapel.
• 12:48
  SPEAKER_00: It was a holy place.
• 12:50
  SPEAKER_00: And a counselor at the treatment center where I was asked me if I was really ready to do this step and suggested that we shouldn't do it.
• 13:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is a good tactic, almost like Cliff.
• 13:05
  SPEAKER_00: Not sure if you're ready.
• 13:06
  SPEAKER_00: And don't do this if you're not ready.
• 13:08
  SPEAKER_00: And you can't fake it.
• 13:10
  SPEAKER_00: So I was curious.
• 13:11
  SPEAKER_00: I said, what do you mean?
• 13:12
  SPEAKER_00: He said, think about what this means.
• 13:13
  SPEAKER_00: You're not running the show anymore.
• 13:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I had what my sponsor later taught me, what is called the gift of desperation.
• 13:22
  SPEAKER_00: I didn't want to be running the show anymore.
• 13:25
  SPEAKER_00: That had not worked out that well.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 13:27
  SPEAKER_00: Leading up to that point, there's a great prayer.
• 13:31
  SPEAKER_00: And we were in that chapel, and I got down on my knees.
• 13:35
  SPEAKER_00: I hadn't been on my knees in a long time in prayer.
• 13:39
  SPEAKER_00: And the third step prayer is, God, I offer myself to thee to build with me and do with me as thou wilt.
• 13:48
  SPEAKER_00: Relieve me of the bondage of self, that I might better do thy will, take away my difficulties, that victory over them may bear witness to those I would help with thy power, thy love, and thy way of life.
• 13:58
  SPEAKER_00: And when I did that prayer in that chapel, I had a powerful experience that ended in a very emotional way.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: And I had one of those sudden spectacular spiritual experiences.
• 14:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I was reunited with a God who told me he, she, whatever, was waiting.
• 14:18
  SPEAKER_00: And that was tremendous relief.
• 14:21
  SPEAKER_00: I was ready.
• 14:23
  SPEAKER_00: And there's more relief that comes.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, I've learned so much being in recovery.
• 14:30
  SPEAKER_00: One of the things I've learned is I put a lot of pressure on myself throughout my whole life to achieve, to succeed, to make people happy, uh, to be exactly who people wanted me to be.
• 14:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then I had a pretty significant collapse and a failure.
• 14:51
  SPEAKER_00: So at that time, for me, saying I don't want to drive anymore.
• 14:57
  SPEAKER_00: And there's an option to pass that off to something else.
• 15:03
  SPEAKER_00: And the deal that I made in that environment at that time was I'm a passenger now and I'm not driving.
• 15:13
  SPEAKER_00: And for me, that was comforting.
• 15:16
  SPEAKER_00: And from that day, it was really powerful.
• 15:18
  SPEAKER_00: Like my life has been very different since that day.
• 15:21
  SPEAKER_00: This isn't the experience everyone has.
• 15:24
  SPEAKER_00: But when I sponsor people, we do this prayer on our knees.
• 15:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I've seen a similar impact on other people.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people say when they do a step three, the obsession to drink changes too.
• 15:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have to drink anymore.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_03: It's really odd.
• 15:42
  SPEAKER_03: I have so many questions, but we have 12 steps.
• 15:45
  SPEAKER_03: I'll keep going.
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_03: Um for well, I do have to ask one.
• 15:49
  SPEAKER_03: So if if only a little bit ago you were describing yourself as insane, and here you're saying, here, take the wheel to a higher power of your understanding, who you may or may not have an actual relationship with.
• 16:05
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 16:06
  SPEAKER_03: That could sound insane.
• 16:07
  SPEAKER_00: Of course.
• 16:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good time for a person to make that decision in an easy one.
• 16:12
  SPEAKER_00: Why not?
• 16:13
  SPEAKER_00: That is the gift of desperation, Terry.
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 16:16
  SPEAKER_00: Like I'll I'll bet on something other than me right now.
• 16:20
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:21
  SPEAKER_00: Because betting on me hasn't worked out recently.
• 16:24
  SPEAKER_00: I need help.
• 16:25
  SPEAKER_00: But this persona is horrible at asking for help.
• 16:30
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:31
  SPEAKER_00: Didn't know how.
• 16:32
  SPEAKER_00: Or being vulnerable.
• 16:34
  SPEAKER_00: I shared with you that turned into a very emotional thing for me.
• 16:37
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I can see it still is.
• 16:38
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 16:39
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 16:40
  SPEAKER_00: And a beautiful thing.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_00: It was wonderful.
• 16:43
  SPEAKER_00: This person that wanted to look, you know, so strong and successful, and I got all my things in order, had a lot of fear.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 16:53
  SPEAKER_00: Like, man, I gotta figure all this out and I gotta do this and I gotta do that.
• 16:56
  SPEAKER_00: And then like, you don't.
• 16:58
  SPEAKER_00: You get a good partner.
• 16:59
  SPEAKER_00: You always have.
• 17:01
  SPEAKER_00: And all of your successes, did you think that that was you?
• 17:05
  SPEAKER_00: Kind of like I've been here all along.
• 17:08
  SPEAKER_00: It's a cool feeling.
• 17:09
  SPEAKER_00: I never struggled with loneliness.
• 17:10
  SPEAKER_00: I'm fortunate I've always been able to make friendships and have fellowship in my life, but I felt way more protected, um, cared for, not alone since that happened.
• 17:24
  SPEAKER_03: Fascinating.
• 17:25
  SPEAKER_03: Moving to steps four through seven, leading to self-examination.
• 17:29
  SPEAKER_03: AA's fourth step is made a searching and fearless moral inventory of ourselves.
• 17:35
  SPEAKER_00: Step four is uh also a place uh where people get out stalled by a fearless and searching moral inventory of ourselves.
• 17:49
  SPEAKER_00: The way this is usually done is you get a notebook and a pen and you list every uh person, place, or institution that you have a resentment towards.
• 18:02
  SPEAKER_00: A lot of people don't really know what a resentment means.
• 18:05
  SPEAKER_00: It's I think it's French, like feel again, right?
• 18:09
  SPEAKER_00: Sentiment is French or Santier is is to feel re again, feel again.
• 18:14
  SPEAKER_00: So who am I angry at?
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_00: Who's been mean to me?
• 18:18
  SPEAKER_00: Who has hurt me?
• 18:20
  SPEAKER_00: Who has mistreated me?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_00: Blah, blah, blah, blah.
• 18:23
  SPEAKER_00: And here's how it usually goes.
• 18:24
  SPEAKER_00: Most people say, Oh, I don't, I don't have many of those.
• 18:27
  SPEAKER_00: Take some time and go way back.
• 18:30
  SPEAKER_00: How far back?
• 18:31
  SPEAKER_00: How far can you remember?
• 18:32
  SPEAKER_00: Was anyone mean to you in kindergarten?
• 18:34
  SPEAKER_00: Like we're going way, way back.
• 18:37
  SPEAKER_00: And when you really sit there and you have a decent guide, you realize that you you have a lot of negative emotions towards people.
• 18:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then that's the first column, all the people, right?
• 18:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then there's a second column.
• 18:50
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 18:51
  SPEAKER_00: He took my lunchbox or he punched me in the nose or whatever.
• 18:54
  SPEAKER_00: How did that make my feet make make me feel?
• 18:56
  SPEAKER_00: It impacted my self-esteem, my security, whatever.
• 18:59
  SPEAKER_00: Fourth column, what was your role in it?
• 19:02
  SPEAKER_00: This is where the alcoholic typically is puzzled.
• 19:07
  SPEAKER_00: Wait, I had something to do with this.
• 19:10
  SPEAKER_00: I think anyone who's known alcoholics, yeah, you're the one that was creating all of this conflict and chaos and controversy, but they haven't seen it that way.
• 19:20
  SPEAKER_00: So here's kind of the bait and switch, right?
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_00: Okay, all these resentments, how many but okay, and and how did I contribute to that?
• 19:28
  SPEAKER_00: So it's a wonderful exercise, actually, at a lot of residential treatment centers and even in like IOP programs, intensively.
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: Right?
• 19:38
  SPEAKER_00: They use the 12 steps, and this is a lot of the work that is done when you're doing this work, is on step four.
• 19:46
  SPEAKER_03: We're gonna move on because there are so many.
• 19:48
  SPEAKER_03: Okay, the fifth step of Alcoholics Anonymous admitted to God, to ourselves, and to another human being, the exact nature of our wrongs.
• 19:56
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 19:57
  SPEAKER_00: Your journal that you just spent a bunch of time on, your notebook with your writing of your inventory is the guide for your step five.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So step five can take quite some time, typically suggested that you're doing it in a very quiet, secluded area.
• 20:18
  SPEAKER_00: And it's important who you pick.
• 20:21
  SPEAKER_00: So admit it to God.
• 20:22
  SPEAKER_00: So they're not there in person, obviously, right?
• 20:25
  SPEAKER_00: Whatever that is for you.
• 20:26
  SPEAKER_00: And again, that's a God of your understanding.
• 20:28
  SPEAKER_00: Ourselves, and there's got to be another human being there with you.
• 20:33
  SPEAKER_00: That could be a sponsor, it could be a priest, right?
• 20:36
  SPEAKER_00: Um, could be a friend.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_00: The exact nature of our wrongs.
• 20:42
  SPEAKER_00: So every religion has a component of atonement or confession.
• 20:48
  SPEAKER_00: And there are strong Christian roots in the 12 steps.
• 20:54
  SPEAKER_00: This is very much like confession.
• 20:57
  SPEAKER_00: The exact nature of my wrongs, and what you do is you go through your whole inventory and you list the names.
• 21:03
  SPEAKER_00: I'm resentful at John.
• 21:04
  SPEAKER_00: He punched me in the nose.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_00: That hurt my self-esteem.
• 21:07
  SPEAKER_00: What was your role in it?
• 21:09
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I punched him first.
• 21:11
  SPEAKER_00: I forgot to mention that, or whatever it might be, right?
• 21:14
  SPEAKER_00: So you just talk through this.
• 21:16
  SPEAKER_00: It can take a long time, a long time.
• 21:19
  SPEAKER_00: And for most of us, again, fearless and searching.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_00: Are you gonna go real deep?
• 21:26
  SPEAKER_00: Our secrets keep us sick.
• 21:28
  SPEAKER_00: And we've all tucked things away in these little closets or nooks or crannies where they're just gonna stay.
• 21:35
  SPEAKER_00: And we drink at a lot of those things, right?
• 21:39
  SPEAKER_00: Drink at, yeah.
• 21:41
  SPEAKER_00: 100%, right?
• 21:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like, what are we drinking at?
• 21:43
  SPEAKER_00: What am I seeking relief from?
• 21:45
  SPEAKER_00: Well, I'm seeking relief from that horrible thing that happened to me when I was 14.
• 21:51
  SPEAKER_00: I'm seeking relief at that, you know, thing that I did that I've never shared with anyone.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel horrible shame and guilt over it.
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 22:01
  SPEAKER_00: So it can be really, really powerful.
• 22:03
  SPEAKER_00: And it's recommended that after you do a step five, you go have some quiet time by yourself and really process all of That what typically happens is there's a feeling of relief and a sense of calm and a sense of lightness.
• 22:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like, and and think of there's no ranking on how significant your inventory is, or how lengthy it is, or how bad your stuff is that you've done.
• 22:35
  SPEAKER_00: But most alcoholics and drug addicts and people whose lives had been un you know unmanageable, there's some dark things in there.
• 22:46
  SPEAKER_03: This podcast is a production of recovery.com.
• 22:49
  SPEAKER_03: Getting help for an addiction or mental health concern is one of the best decisions you will ever make.
• 22:55
  SPEAKER_03: But once you make that decision, it can be tough to know what to do next.
• 22:59
  SPEAKER_03: That's why we built recovery.com.
• 23:02
  SPEAKER_03: It's the best place to find mental health and addiction treatment for anyone, anywhere.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_03: Here's how it works: search over 22,000 facilities, compare your options, and connect directly with treatment providers that meet your needs.
• 23:18
  SPEAKER_03: So if you need treatment that goes beyond an occasional therapy session, go to recovery.com.
• 23:25
  SPEAKER_03: Your recovery starts today.
• 23:28
  SPEAKER_03: One of the searched questions, and we have to do this one quickly, but what if I'm too ashamed to say the worst parts out loud?
• 23:35
  SPEAKER_00: You're gonna stay sick.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: There's no judgment.
• 23:38
  SPEAKER_00: So be really thoughtful with who you choose to do your step five with.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 23:44
  SPEAKER_02: So you don't have to do that.
• 23:45
  SPEAKER_00: We only have to do it once.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 23:47
  SPEAKER_00: And then it's done.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 23:48
  SPEAKER_00: And there's no judgment.
• 23:50
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has made mistakes.
• 23:52
  SPEAKER_00: Everyone has done things they regret.
• 23:54
  SPEAKER_00: But if we're sitting with that our whole life, it's a hard way to go through life.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_00: That's where there is, I think, a strong Christian foundational element here of forgiveness.
• 24:08
  SPEAKER_00: And we're kind of getting there here with step six.
• 24:11
  SPEAKER_03: Let's do it.
• 24:12
  SPEAKER_03: A sixth step.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_03: We're entirely ready to have God remove all of these defects of character.
• 24:18
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 24:19
  SPEAKER_00: So after we do step four and step five, there are patterns that emerge that uh, well, you you you have ended a lot of intimate relationships in a very hurtful manner.
• 24:34
  SPEAKER_00: And there's common patterns there.
• 24:36
  SPEAKER_00: So we will see our character defects will be really clear.
• 24:41
  SPEAKER_00: Or you've been dishonest.
• 24:43
  SPEAKER_00: You've been jealous, uh, you've been cruel, whatever it might be.
• 24:47
  SPEAKER_00: You've been judgmental, right?
• 24:49
  SPEAKER_00: A resentment towards someone could be you're jealous, what they have that you don't have, or they were chosen for something that you weren't chosen for.
• 24:58
  SPEAKER_00: So now our character defects become really, really apparent.
• 25:03
  SPEAKER_00: What's interesting is that one would think we want to get rid of them, but there's attachment with them.
• 25:11
  SPEAKER_00: And this is where martyrs are in trouble.
• 25:14
  SPEAKER_00: I don't want to give that up, right?
• 25:16
  SPEAKER_00: The, the, the, the, this is my narrative, right?
• 25:20
  SPEAKER_00: My things, those are justifiable.
• 25:25
  SPEAKER_00: And a lot of it is, well, do you know what she did to me?
• 25:28
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 25:29
  SPEAKER_00: She hit first, or that guy was an asshole, or whatever it might be.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_00: That doesn't matter, right?
• 25:36
  SPEAKER_00: We're entirely ready to have God remove all these defects of character.
• 25:39
  SPEAKER_00: There's also, I think, like a real courage thing here.
• 25:44
  SPEAKER_00: Are you willing to really be the best version of yourself?
• 25:48
  SPEAKER_03: Without knowing what that is.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 25:50
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 25:51
  SPEAKER_00: This is like that guy's gonna be gone after we do this, and you're not going back.
• 25:59
  SPEAKER_00: It's like a whole new, like 2.0.
• 26:02
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking of shaking an etch a sketch.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 26:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_00: We're entirely ready.
• 26:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's interesting in the big book, the first 164 pages of the book Alcoholics Anonymous, that's the program.
• 26:15
  SPEAKER_00: Step six and seven are two paragraphs.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: It's really weird.
• 26:19
  SPEAKER_03: Wow.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 26:20
  SPEAKER_03: Let's talk about seven.
• 26:21
  SPEAKER_03: There you go.
• 26:22
  SPEAKER_03: A seventh step is humbly asked him to remove our shortcomings.
• 26:26
  SPEAKER_00: So six, we're entirely ready.
• 26:30
  SPEAKER_00: Humbly asked him.
• 26:31
  SPEAKER_00: There's a prayer.
• 26:32
  SPEAKER_00: God, I'm now willing that you should have all of me, good and bad, right?
• 26:36
  SPEAKER_00: Please remove everything that is blocking me.
• 26:39
  SPEAKER_00: I don't have it memorized.
• 26:41
  SPEAKER_00: But um, yeah, this is when you say, I do want these things removed.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: And I want these things removed so I can be better and I can do better work.
• 26:52
  SPEAKER_00: So this whole process is, I think, moving towards trying to figure out what God's will for me really is.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: And I can't really do my best work.
• 27:04
  SPEAKER_00: I can't really be as helpful as I should be if I'm hanging on to these things.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 27:12
  SPEAKER_00: I talked earlier about, you know, feeling like you have a monkey on your back and then you feel like this tremendous relief, like, whoa, I'm unlocked, right?
• 27:20
  SPEAKER_00: I have this freed up space.
• 27:23
  SPEAKER_00: It can be pretty powerful.
• 27:25
  SPEAKER_00: And think of all these petty things that have been bothering me.
• 27:30
  SPEAKER_00: And if we think of people in our lives, there's a lot of people who are very easily bothered with a lot of things.
• 27:37
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine if we didn't have to live that way.
• 27:39
  SPEAKER_00: So there's this element of there's a passage.
• 27:43
  SPEAKER_00: If you've decided you want what we have and are willing to go to any length to get it, then you're ready to take certain steps.
• 27:51
  SPEAKER_00: That like if you've decided you want what we have, when you see people that have really worked this program, they kind of float through life, like they just seem so peaceful that nothing bothers them.
• 28:05
  SPEAKER_00: And that's like the power of this.
• 28:08
  SPEAKER_00: Like all of those character defects can be removed.
• 28:11
  SPEAKER_00: But I think this is where it's tricky.
• 28:14
  SPEAKER_00: Attachment is really an odd thing.
• 28:17
  SPEAKER_00: Am I really ready to live that way?
• 28:20
  SPEAKER_03: It requires so much faith because it's not just faith that there is a higher power, often referred to in the steps as God, but that if you ask him to remove your defects, that they will be gone, it's it's so much to believe.
• 28:38
  SPEAKER_00: It is.
• 28:39
  SPEAKER_00: And we aim for progress, not perfection.
• 28:43
  SPEAKER_00: It's not oh, they're gone, right?
• 28:46
  SPEAKER_00: However, you feel very different fast, it's cool.
• 28:51
  SPEAKER_00: But I think it does require you you say faith.
• 28:53
  SPEAKER_00: It does require, yeah.
• 28:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 28:55
  SPEAKER_00: Like the gift of desperation again.
• 28:57
  SPEAKER_00: I hope this works.
• 29:00
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be really cool if it did.
• 29:01
  SPEAKER_00: Gosh, and there's a placebo effect.
• 29:04
  SPEAKER_00: Of course there is.
• 29:05
  SPEAKER_00: Terry, this is gonna work for you.
• 29:07
  SPEAKER_00: It's worked for everyone else.
• 29:09
  SPEAKER_00: Let's do it.
• 29:10
  SPEAKER_00: And then you're like, whoa, why not ride that?
• 29:13
  SPEAKER_00: Why be a skeptic instead of be a believer?
• 29:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, I think a lot a lot of people that end up here have been really cynical and negative and hurt.
• 29:26
  SPEAKER_00: There's a lot of people that truly have had tons of trauma and tough lives.
• 29:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard to change all that.
• 29:35
  SPEAKER_00: And it requires courage.
• 29:38
  SPEAKER_00: For some reason, a lot of people don't want to turn the page.
• 29:43
  SPEAKER_00: We are an odd lot, right?
• 29:45
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, as you put it, it's it is your narrative, and people can become very attached to it, especially if it absolves them of responsibility.
• 29:53
  SPEAKER_00: That's right, which we're gonna get into here.
• 29:55
  SPEAKER_03: We are steps eight and nine lead to relationship repair.
• 29:58
  SPEAKER_03: AA's eighth step is made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make amends to them all.
• 30:05
  SPEAKER_00: This is hard, especially for people that think that they're good people and they've wanted to be a positive influence and to be a good friend, a good son, a good husband, a good father, a good teammate.
• 30:18
  SPEAKER_00: Make a list of all the people I've harmed.
• 30:20
  SPEAKER_00: Where do you think the main source of this list comes from?
• 30:25
  SPEAKER_00: It's from step four.
• 30:27
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 30:28
  SPEAKER_00: That fearless and searching moral inventory of ourselves.
• 30:31
  SPEAKER_00: Here are all the people who I've had a resentment towards, who I get a beef with.
• 30:35
  SPEAKER_00: Oh, my junior high school football coach, right?
• 30:38
  SPEAKER_00: My math teacher, my dad for this, my sister, my friend, right?
• 30:42
  SPEAKER_00: Like this kid Jimmy in fifth grade, whatever.
• 30:45
  SPEAKER_00: And then we do that inventory.
• 30:48
  SPEAKER_00: And then in the fourth column, we realize, oh man, well, like I had like been mean to him.
• 30:56
  SPEAKER_00: Like I had contributed in a very significant fashion to this relationship not being great.
• 31:03
  SPEAKER_00: I've hurt those people.
• 31:06
  SPEAKER_00: And this is revelatory because we know they hurt me, but accepting I've hurt them too, made a list of all persons we had harmed and became willing to make ends.
• 31:21
  SPEAKER_00: So the list isn't that hard.
• 31:22
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 31:23
  SPEAKER_00: Because I already have a bunch of these names.
• 31:24
  SPEAKER_00: How many of those are going to get transferred to this list?
• 31:27
  SPEAKER_00: Here's where it gets hard.
• 31:29
  SPEAKER_03: The ninth step of the AA 12 steps made direct amends to such people wherever possible, except when to do so would injure them or others.
• 31:37
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 31:38
  SPEAKER_00: This is the is I've I've mentioned a lot of people uh get hung up on step three.
• 31:44
  SPEAKER_00: Mm-hmm.
• 31:45
  SPEAKER_00: Get really stalled at four and really stall at nine.
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_00: So direct amends means I'm going to go to you like this and say, Terry, can I talk to you about something?
• 32:01
  SPEAKER_03: I may not have talked to you in 30 years.
• 32:03
  SPEAKER_03: That's right.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 32:05
  SPEAKER_00: And I want to acknowledge something that happened some time ago where I hurt you.
• 32:11
  SPEAKER_00: And I just want to take ownership of that.
• 32:13
  SPEAKER_00: I've never done that.
• 32:14
  SPEAKER_00: And I never really understood how clearly I do now that I really did hurt you.
• 32:19
  SPEAKER_00: These are things humans are not good at, right?
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_00: And rarely probably in either direction.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 32:24
  SPEAKER_03: I would be uncomfortable hearing it.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: Correct.
• 32:26
  SPEAKER_03: And you might be uncomfortable saying it.
• 32:28
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 32:29
  SPEAKER_00: I made uh several hard amends.
• 32:34
  SPEAKER_00: Most difficult was my in-laws, my wife's parents, who are wonderful people.
• 32:39
  SPEAKER_00: And they've always been so good to me and so loving and kind to me.
• 32:43
  SPEAKER_00: And I hurt them.
• 32:45
  SPEAKER_00: I was not a good husband to their daughter.
• 32:47
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:48
  SPEAKER_00: And for a short period of time, I was not a good father to their grandchildren.
• 32:52
  SPEAKER_00: I had to drive to their house an hour away, and they didn't really want to see me.
• 32:58
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 32:59
  SPEAKER_00: And it was so emotional and powerful.
• 33:04
  SPEAKER_00: And they forgave me.
• 33:06
  SPEAKER_00: Like I felt what I think is true unconditional love, like I had never felt before.
• 33:12
  SPEAKER_00: And I felt free.
• 33:14
  SPEAKER_00: I also made amends to someone I used to work for that I hurt.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: I was really hard.
• 33:21
  SPEAKER_00: I had always taken pride in being a good teammate.
• 33:24
  SPEAKER_00: And um, yeah, it requires a lot of courage.
• 33:29
  SPEAKER_00: And uh my sponsor said, do it scared, do it scared.
• 33:34
  SPEAKER_00: And it does set you free.
• 33:35
  SPEAKER_00: What's interesting, when you make amends, the vast majority of the time it goes really, really well.
• 33:42
  SPEAKER_00: And the person receiving the amends is aware of how hard that is.
• 33:49
  SPEAKER_00: So when I see you doing something hard, there's a degree of respect that you have for another person that is doing something that is difficult.
• 33:57
  SPEAKER_00: Does that make sense?
• 33:58
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_03: But that accept that's in this step, the accept when it would injure.
• 34:04
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, and some that that's a tricky one.
• 34:05
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:06
  SPEAKER_00: Except when it would injure them or others.
• 34:09
  SPEAKER_00: I think a lot of amends that don't get made are people that, you know, well, he hurt me worse than I hurt him, and the bad end of a business deal or whatever it might be.
• 34:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um, except when to do so would injure them or others.
• 34:24
  SPEAKER_00: That can be, I don't know how you really process that.
• 34:27
  SPEAKER_00: Like, how am I going to injure this person by making an amends?
• 34:31
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 34:32
  SPEAKER_00: Reopening an old wound.
• 34:33
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 34:34
  SPEAKER_00: But but there are people working this program who, you know, in their step five are confessing to things that would land them in prison for a long time.
• 34:44
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 34:45
  SPEAKER_00: And people going and making amends to people that there's been a lot, a lot, a lot of harm here.
• 34:51
  SPEAKER_00: And when you're in the program for a while and you see some people have had lives with tremendous conflict and strain and trauma.
• 35:01
  SPEAKER_00: And you hear people that have a step four with 428 people on it.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:06
  SPEAKER_00: Right, right, right.
• 35:08
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 35:09
  SPEAKER_00: And the work is never done.
• 35:11
  SPEAKER_00: So we never graduate, and we're going to get to that now.
• 35:15
  SPEAKER_00: Um, so typically the way it works is the newcomer with a good sponsor will work the 12 steps and they'll go through the 12 steps, but it's never done.
• 35:26
  SPEAKER_00: We're always in this program.
• 35:29
  SPEAKER_00: 10, 11, 12.
• 35:31
  SPEAKER_00: Typically, I'm interested to hear how you classify them.
• 35:36
  SPEAKER_00: Maintenance.
• 35:37
  SPEAKER_03: Ongoing maintenance and service is what it's.
• 35:40
  SPEAKER_03: Yes.
• 35:41
  SPEAKER_03: So step 10 and AA continue to take personal inventory, and when we were wrong, promptly admitted it.
• 35:47
  SPEAKER_00: Nip it in the bud.
• 35:49
  SPEAKER_00: So on a daily basis, I should review my day and look for ways that I have hurt people or I haven't acted the way I wanted to act.
• 36:02
  SPEAKER_00: Maybe I was short with someone.
• 36:04
  SPEAKER_00: Uh maybe I cut someone off in traffic.
• 36:07
  SPEAKER_00: I made a snide remark, small things.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_00: And if I could do it over again, I would have done it differently.
• 36:15
  SPEAKER_00: Step 10 suggests that I should take ownership of that right away.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_00: Accountability.
• 36:20
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 36:21
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 36:22
  SPEAKER_00: Like Terry, you asked me a question and I was distracted and I didn't really give you the best answer.
• 36:28
  SPEAKER_00: And I think I might have snapped a little bit at you.
• 36:31
  SPEAKER_00: I apologize.
• 36:32
  SPEAKER_00: That's not how I want to show up.
• 36:33
  SPEAKER_00: And what's really interesting when we think about living this way, for me is not many people live this way.
• 36:41
  SPEAKER_00: It's hard.
• 36:42
  SPEAKER_00: Does it mean you're apologizing all the time?
• 36:44
  SPEAKER_00: I don't think it's apologizing.
• 36:46
  SPEAKER_00: I think it's acknowledging.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 36:47
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I didn't show up the way I wanted to in that meeting.
• 36:50
  SPEAKER_00: I was stressed.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 36:52
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I was thinking about something else.
• 36:55
  SPEAKER_00: I was doodling half the meeting, not really paying attention, checking my phone.
• 37:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's not how I want to show up.
• 37:02
  SPEAKER_00: Simple, small.
• 37:03
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 37:04
  SPEAKER_03: The thought being if you're taking responsibility for the small things on a daily basis, you won't be getting into huge things.
• 37:11
  SPEAKER_00: Bingo.
• 37:12
  SPEAKER_00: I am not going to build new resentments.
• 37:14
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 37:15
  SPEAKER_00: Because if I build big resentments, what could that lead to?
• 37:20
  SPEAKER_00: I'm assuming drinking.
• 37:21
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:22
  SPEAKER_00: If I don't feel good and I have a lot of conflict in my life, and this guy screwed me and that guy screwed me, whatever.
• 37:29
  SPEAKER_00: Resentments, yep.
• 37:31
  SPEAKER_00: I'm going to seek relief.
• 37:33
  SPEAKER_00: It's not a fun way to live.
• 37:36
  SPEAKER_00: And what has always been the easiest and quickest source of relief for me?
• 37:40
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:41
  unknown: Alcohol.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_00: I drink over it.
• 37:42
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 37:43
  SPEAKER_00: So if I don't build that up, there's nothing to drink over.
• 37:47
  SPEAKER_00: And every night I hit the pillow and I feel good about the day.
• 37:51
  SPEAKER_00: And I didn't create any new controversy.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_00: It's a good way to live.
• 37:56
  SPEAKER_00: Really hard way to live, though.
• 37:59
  SPEAKER_00: You know that book, The Four Agreements?
• 38:01
  SPEAKER_02: Yes.
• 38:02
  SPEAKER_00: Agreement, the first agreement, be impeccable with your word.
• 38:06
  SPEAKER_00: That means without sin.
• 38:08
  SPEAKER_00: Imagine you'd go through life never saying anything that you wanted to change or take back.
• 38:16
  SPEAKER_03: Right.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:18
  SPEAKER_00: That's not happening over here, but that side of the table.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 38:21
  SPEAKER_00: So step 10 is awesome.
• 38:22
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah.
• 38:23
  SPEAKER_00: It's like all I gotta do is is when I slip, note it and own it.
• 38:30
  SPEAKER_00: And to err is human.
• 38:33
  SPEAKER_00: And we are flawed characters.
• 38:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that's how we're designed.
• 38:37
  SPEAKER_00: So let's just accept that.
• 38:39
  SPEAKER_00: I made seven mistakes today.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Here they are.
• 38:41
  SPEAKER_00: Boom, boom, boom, boom, boom.
• 38:43
  SPEAKER_00: Taking ownership.
• 38:44
  SPEAKER_00: But they're done.
• 38:45
  SPEAKER_00: Let's move on.
• 38:46
  SPEAKER_03: AA's 11th step.
• 38:48
  SPEAKER_03: Sought through prayer and meditation to improve our conscious contact with God as we understood Him.
• 38:54
  SPEAKER_00: I have a daily reprieve, a daily reprieve from my alcoholism contingent on the maintenance of my spiritual condition.
• 39:05
  SPEAKER_03: And you still say daily, even though it's been years.
• 39:07
  SPEAKER_03: Sometimes hourly.
• 39:08
  SPEAKER_03: Do you struggle?
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: No.
• 39:10
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 39:11
  SPEAKER_00: No.
• 39:12
  SPEAKER_00: Um, but I have to be spiritually fit.
• 39:15
  SPEAKER_02: Okay.
• 39:16
  SPEAKER_00: I can get restless, irritable, and discontent in a heartbeat, and my ego can come back really quickly.
• 39:23
  SPEAKER_03: So And that would be a seed for the discontent that would or could lead to you drinking again.
• 39:32
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 39:34
  SPEAKER_00: You know, a drink sure would be nice.
• 39:36
  SPEAKER_02: Mm-hmm.
• 39:37
  SPEAKER_00: So I have to be proactive with working on my spiritual fitness.
• 39:44
  SPEAKER_00: Dr.
• 39:45
  SPEAKER_00: Silkworth said this is a disease of the mind and the body and a spiritual malady.
• 39:52
  SPEAKER_00: Carl Jung, who had a big influence on Alcoholics Anonymous, he was probably the second or third most famous psychologist in the world in the 1930s.
• 40:03
  SPEAKER_00: He had a theory that alcoholics are spiritual seekers.
• 40:07
  SPEAKER_00: And he had this great letter that he wrote to Bill Wilson: like, how do you fight alcoholism, spiritus contrast spiritum?
• 40:14
  SPEAKER_00: It's like you're fighting alcohol is called spirits.
• 40:17
  SPEAKER_00: You're fighting that with a spiritual solution, right?
• 40:20
  SPEAKER_00: So sought through prayer and meditation to improve my conscious.
• 40:24
  SPEAKER_00: That means intentional, conscious contact with God.
• 40:28
  SPEAKER_00: So every day I should be spending some time with that higher power of my understanding.
• 40:34
  SPEAKER_00: And that can be a number of different things.
• 40:36
  SPEAKER_00: The way it was explained to me is prayer is asking.
• 40:42
  unknown: Okay.
• 40:42
  SPEAKER_00: And meditation is receiving.
• 40:45
  SPEAKER_00: So can I receive the grace of God?
• 40:48
  SPEAKER_00: And we have to be spiritually fit to do that.
• 40:52
  SPEAKER_00: We can't receive that if we're not spiritually fit.
• 40:55
  SPEAKER_03: I'm going to go right to 12.
• 40:57
  SPEAKER_03: It's hard not to say this all sounds really difficult for people who are saying, stop saying God, I don't believe in God.
• 41:05
  SPEAKER_03: Or I have a different 100%.
• 41:07
  SPEAKER_03: You know, I think just substitute God with higher power.
• 41:10
  SPEAKER_03: It would be easier for so many people if each step said the higher power of your understanding instead of capital G, God, and capital H Him.
• 41:19
  SPEAKER_03: Absolutely.
• 41:20
  SPEAKER_00: Or change the what God means.
• 41:23
  SPEAKER_00: Like I could change, like, sure, we could make that say higher power, or just be like, oh, God doesn't mean what I thought it meant.
• 41:29
  SPEAKER_00: God just means this thing that I like my conception of God.
• 41:33
  SPEAKER_00: What is that?
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't even know what mine is.
• 41:36
  SPEAKER_00: So my God is such an odd combination.
• 41:40
  SPEAKER_00: Really, it comes down to like how I treat people.
• 41:43
  SPEAKER_00: But it's a combination, I think there's some awesome components of Christianity.
• 41:48
  SPEAKER_00: The ones that I love are tolerance, equality, forgiveness.
• 41:53
  SPEAKER_00: I love Buddhism, right?
• 41:55
  SPEAKER_00: Suffering is normal and all suffering is rooted in attachment.
• 42:00
  SPEAKER_00: When I'm doing step 11 work, I'm trying to connect with my dad, who died when I was 34 years old, 33 years old.
• 42:08
  SPEAKER_00: He was 55 years old.
• 42:10
  SPEAKER_00: And I don't want to say my dad was an alcoholic because I never heard him say that.
• 42:14
  SPEAKER_00: But he sure did look like one in many aspects of his life.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_00: And I miss my dad so much.
• 42:19
  SPEAKER_00: I've lost friends to the disease.
• 42:21
  SPEAKER_00: They are a part of my God, my higher power.
• 42:24
  SPEAKER_00: I love animals.
• 42:26
  SPEAKER_00: They are a part of my higher power.
• 42:29
  SPEAKER_00: I love nature.
• 42:30
  SPEAKER_00: And I feel a sense of awe and smallness whenever I'm in nature that makes me feel good.
• 42:38
  SPEAKER_00: And it makes me feel both insignificant and significant at the same time.
• 42:44
  SPEAKER_00: So I have no idea what all that is together.
• 42:47
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 42:48
  SPEAKER_00: I just know that there's something greater than me.
• 42:51
  SPEAKER_02: Right.
• 42:52
  SPEAKER_00: And when I could get out of my own head, alcoholism, I, self, and me, right?
• 42:58
  SPEAKER_00: It's all about me.
• 42:59
  SPEAKER_00: Where's my next drink coming from?
• 43:00
  SPEAKER_00: That's all I think about is me and how I feel.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: Right.
• 43:03
  SPEAKER_00: And when I can get out of that, something greater than myself, it's so helpful.
• 43:08
  SPEAKER_03: That's I appreciate that description because it does help because it can be so that's market can seem like a lock on a door that you can't get in if you don't believe.
• 43:18
  SPEAKER_00: There's no like dude in a white robe with a beard and a staff up in the clouds or anything like that.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_00: I just think that's bizarre, right?
• 43:25
  SPEAKER_00: Like, who sold that?
• 43:27
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know.
• 43:28
  SPEAKER_00: But also the license, right?
• 43:30
  SPEAKER_00: And the male thing is interesting too, the capital H and I'm like, what, whatever, right?
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_00: For me, I would much rather have uh Mother Earth.
• 43:39
  SPEAKER_00: There you go.
• 43:40
  SPEAKER_00: Is better to me, right?
• 43:41
  SPEAKER_00: So, but what's cool is we get to build that.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_03: Mm-hmm.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: Okay.
• 43:45
  SPEAKER_03: The the last step of the 12 steps.
• 43:48
  SPEAKER_03: Having had a spiritual awakening as the result of these steps, we tried to carry this message to alcoholics and to practice these principles in all our affairs.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: Yep.
• 43:57
  SPEAKER_00: This is it.
• 43:59
  SPEAKER_00: Step 12.
• 44:00
  SPEAKER_00: The way I perceive that is it's not gonna work unless I have a massive transformation in how I see the world, a spiritual awakening.
• 44:13
  SPEAKER_00: And Terry, if you want to talk about like scaring people and uh repelling people, talk about being born again, right?
• 44:21
  SPEAKER_00: That that's something to be like, oh, because they have a conception of what that means.
• 44:26
  SPEAKER_00: But that really is this spiritual awakening is you go through a series of events or things that happen to you and you see the world completely differently.
• 44:35
  SPEAKER_00: And that is what needs to happen, right?
• 44:39
  SPEAKER_00: And it does happen sometimes quickly, sometimes slowly, but it will always materialize if we keep working for it.
• 44:49
  SPEAKER_00: And then what I think is really inspirational, I got so lucky that this happened.
• 44:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I got sober, right?
• 44:57
  SPEAKER_00: And it's amazing, right?
• 44:59
  SPEAKER_00: Because I used to be so dependent on alcohol.
• 45:02
  SPEAKER_00: And there's a line in the big book that says, alcohol was my master, and I struggled and I was addicted to this.
• 45:07
  SPEAKER_00: And then that completely changed and it removed this program worked for me.
• 45:12
  SPEAKER_00: So guess what?
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_00: You have a duty and a responsibility to pass it on and to show others, practice these principles and all your affairs.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: For me, practicing these principles in all your affairs, the goal of that is that you can hopefully be a program of attraction, right?
• 45:34
  SPEAKER_00: And someone might see, like, that guy seems like he's doing pretty well.
• 45:38
  SPEAKER_00: I wonder why.
• 45:40
  SPEAKER_00: How did he get that?
• 45:41
  SPEAKER_00: What happened?
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Someone might lean in, right?
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: And I can do that at home.
• 45:48
  SPEAKER_00: I can do that at 12-step meetings.
• 45:51
  SPEAKER_00: Hopefully, I can do that at work with my coworkers, with my teammates, with our customers, with our partners.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_00: I can do that at the grocery store with how I treat people.
• 46:05
  SPEAKER_00: So for me, where where I really landed with this whole thing, it's and it's really cool.
• 46:09
  SPEAKER_00: I came back to seeing the world the way I saw the world when I was a very young boy.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_00: And I remember when I was a young boy, like being really excited to meet new people.
• 46:21
  SPEAKER_00: And I just felt like it was going to be a new friend.
• 46:25
  SPEAKER_00: And if you watch small children, they're such fast friends.
• 46:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_00: And they love meeting new people.
• 46:32
  SPEAKER_00: And you, they even say silly things like, you're my best friend after like an hour.
• 46:38
  SPEAKER_00: And they remember hanging out when they're three years old with someone that they just hung out with one day at some family reunion or something.
• 46:46
  SPEAKER_00: And this program for me like restored that child innocence and beauty in the world.
• 46:54
  SPEAKER_00: And I also don't tune into traditional media.
• 46:58
  unknown: Okay.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: Which helps me.
• 46:59
  SPEAKER_03: Yes, I'll bet it does.
• 47:00
  SPEAKER_03: So we've been talking a lot about sobriety because it is the goal of the program.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_03: What is the difference between sobriety and recovery?
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_00: I would say sobriety is uh means someone isn't currently using their drug of choice.
• 47:16
  SPEAKER_00: So if you had been addicted to alcohol or cocaine, then you're not currently using alcohol or you're not currently using cocaine.
• 47:23
  SPEAKER_00: That's it.
• 47:24
  SPEAKER_00: Sobriety.
• 47:25
  SPEAKER_00: I'm not putting these substances in my body anymore.
• 47:29
  SPEAKER_00: Recovery for me means you've transitioned from having a demeanor of being restless, irritable, and discontent to being happy, joyous, and free.
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_00: That's what being in recovery means to me.
• 47:43
  SPEAKER_03: Big difference.
• 47:44
  SPEAKER_03: Thank you for taking the time to go through all these because again, I think many of us were certainly familiar with the phrase, the 12 steps, but I very much doubt that most people who have not worked the program or are not working the program would be able to tell you what they all mean.
• 47:57
  SPEAKER_03: So thank you.
• 47:58
  SPEAKER_03: You're welcome.
• 48:00
  SPEAKER_03: If somebody wants to learn more, where should they go?
• 48:02
  SPEAKER_00: There are tremendous resources online, uh Alcoholics Anonymous.
• 48:07
  SPEAKER_00: There's several meeting finders.
• 48:09
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, there's several apps you can download on your phone.
• 48:12
  SPEAKER_00: So if anyone is curious, I would recommend checking out a meeting.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_00: Go to a meeting.
• 48:18
  SPEAKER_00: And um, I think you'll be surprised in a positive way.
• 48:21
  SPEAKER_00: And if that one isn't great for you, go to another one.
• 48:25
  SPEAKER_03: Yeah, the individual ones are very different from one another.
• 48:28
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, I think you a lot of people talk about the importance of finding the right meeting.
• 48:32
  SPEAKER_00: So we say keep coming back.
• 48:34
  SPEAKER_00: It works if you're working.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Got it.
• 48:36
  SPEAKER_00: Thank you so much.
• 48:37
  SPEAKER_00: You're welcome.
• 48:38
  SPEAKER_03: And thank you for joining us.
• 48:39
  SPEAKER_03: And we will be back next week with another look at another behavioral health topic.