Latest / Beyond Labels Premium / Episode #270: Raw Milk Under Attack: What the Data Says & The Food Freedom Debate

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Episode #270: Raw Milk Under Attack: What the Data Says & The Food Freedom Debate · Beyond Labels Premium

• 0:00
  SPEAKER_01: They're actively mobilizing pediatricians to lobby state lawmakers across the country to pass bans on the sale and distribution of unpasteurized or raw milk.
• 0:11
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're if you're going to go buy raw milk, assume the farmer is incompetent.
• 0:16
  SPEAKER_00: That's not negative.
• 0:17
  SPEAKER_00: That's just self-protected.
• 0:18
  SPEAKER_00: So you do, you ask for a test.
• 0:21
  SPEAKER_00: You smell around, you look around.
• 0:23
  SPEAKER_01: That actually inspires me and makes sure that I do my due diligence because I'm not just going to trust what somebody else says.
• 0:35
  SPEAKER_01: All right, welcome to another episode of Beyond Labels.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: I'm Dr.
• 0:38
  SPEAKER_01: Cena McKella, and I'm here with my favorite co-host, Joel Salatin.
• 0:44
  SPEAKER_01: And today, Joel, we're going to talk about a battle that's just escalated to the national level.
• 0:51
  SPEAKER_01: The target is once again raw milk.
• 0:54
  SPEAKER_01: And to all the listeners, before you decide this episode isn't for you because you don't drink raw milk, I want to say that this episode is for everyone because this conversation is not just about a glass of milk.
• 1:07
  SPEAKER_01: It's about who owns your body, who decides what you're allowed to feed your kids, and how public health institutions are using fear and bad epidemiology, bad science, and a recent tragedy to strip away your fundamental food sovereignty.
• 1:25
  SPEAKER_01: This fits right into Joel's food emancipation.
• 1:30
  SPEAKER_01: So, Joel, what happened was in October of this year, the American Academy of Pediatrics issued an aggressive official policy statement.
• 1:41
  SPEAKER_01: They aren't just advising parents to not feed their kids raw milk and raw milk products.
• 1:47
  SPEAKER_01: They're actively mobilizing pediatricians to lobby state lawmakers across the country to pass bans on the sale and distribution of unpasteurized or raw milk.
• 2:00
  SPEAKER_01: Now, some may recall that back in 2014, the American Academy of Pediatrics did the same thing, but they're escalating it.
• 2:24
  SPEAKER_01: First, that there's this um huge cultural movement of people waking up and rejecting ultra-processed industrial food, um, including pasteurized milk.
• 2:36
  SPEAKER_01: Second, there is a tragic case of a toddler in California who contracted E.
• 2:42
  SPEAKER_01: coli and got very, very sick from raw milk.
• 2:45
  SPEAKER_01: So they're capitalizing on that.
• 2:47
  SPEAKER_01: And third, they're writing the media hysteria around bird flu.
• 2:53
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so I I want to jump into all of that right now.
• 2:57
  SPEAKER_01: Um we're gonna pull back the curtain and tell you what's happening and a little bit of the research behind how they're got how they came to the wrong conclusion.
• 3:10
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 3:11
  SPEAKER_01: So right now, Joel, weekly uh retail raw milk sales have surged.
• 3:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um they've surged from 21% to 65%, and that was just in the spring of 2024 compared to the previous year.
• 3:27
  SPEAKER_01: So they are increasing.
• 3:28
  SPEAKER_01: Google searches for raw milk interests were three and a half times higher in 2026 compared with 2020 levels.
• 3:37
  SPEAKER_01: And the um AAP, this American Academy of Pediatrics, and actually Food Safety Magazine are explicitly blaming social media, quote, misinformation.
• 3:49
  SPEAKER_01: They're saying that we have these high-profile wellness health influencers and alternative practitioners, and they're driving kind of this resurgence of raw dairy, and it's dangerous.
• 4:03
  SPEAKER_01: And I would gather, Joel, that you would be clumped in that group of social media misinformation people.
• 4:12
  SPEAKER_00: Certainly, right?
• 4:14
  SPEAKER_00: As a raw milk activist, uh proud, proud to be guilty.
• 4:18
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, you know, I think uh I think it's interesting that this has actually developed as a result of now, I think, if I'm right on this, um 48 states now allow raw milk sales in in in some form or another.
• 4:40
  SPEAKER_00: Um it's almost it's almost nationwide.
• 4:45
  SPEAKER_00: And uh, and of course, the real the the the real milk, the the campaign for real milk launched by the Weston A.
• 4:51
  SPEAKER_00: Price Foundation, whatever, 30 years ago, uh has just gradually etched away, etched away, etched away, and uh to where raw milk is now legal to sell in some form.
• 5:03
  SPEAKER_00: Sometimes it limits the number of gallons per farm, sometimes the number of cows per farm, the way the milk can be sold, you know, only on farm or at farmers market or or whatever, you know, different different states, uh different things.
• 5:17
  SPEAKER_00: But um in gener in general, in general, the political, the political trajectory has been toward raw milk sales freedom for the for the last 30 years.
• 5:32
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 5:33
  SPEAKER_01: And the American Academy of Pediatrics is saying that as more states are allowing the sale of raw milk, we're having more outbreaks, like more illnesses.
• 5:47
  SPEAKER_01: So they're saying this is um a very dangerous trajectory.
• 5:52
  SPEAKER_01: Um and one of so the case that this this high-profile tragedy that happened, it was um this year in California.
• 6:01
  SPEAKER_01: Uh this is the one that they're piggybacking on.
• 6:03
  SPEAKER_01: This was uh it was a mom who was seeking um digestive relief for her 17-month-old daughter.
• 6:11
  SPEAKER_01: And so she bought raw goat's milk from uh Moonlight Ridge Farm in California, and she ended up getting E.
• 6:18
  SPEAKER_01: coli from it.
• 6:19
  SPEAKER_01: And it's the type of E.
• 6:20
  SPEAKER_01: coli that results in this um this Shiga toxin.
• 6:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's it's like a Shiga toxin producing E.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: coli.
• 6:29
  SPEAKER_01: It's called S T E C stec.
• 6:32
  SPEAKER_01: And it it causes infection that led to acute kidney failure.
• 6:38
  SPEAKER_01: So very very scary, right?
• 6:42
  SPEAKER_01: Very dangerous situation.
• 6:44
  SPEAKER_01: Um, the daughter ended up um living.
• 6:47
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but it obviously this is not something that you'd want to go through as a parent.
• 6:52
  SPEAKER_01: When the state inspected this farm, they said that it was an unlicensed backyard operation and they were using that pet food uh label loophole.
• 7:03
  SPEAKER_01: And the owners allegedly admitted to the state regulators that they didn't know how to test for pathogens like this type of E.
• 7:10
  SPEAKER_01: coli.
• 7:11
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, so the AAP is lobbying to ban all this milk, um, you know, in light of cases like that.
• 7:20
  SPEAKER_01: And Joel, I will tell you that when when I read the article, so there's one, this article is listed, for example, in in people.
• 7:31
  SPEAKER_01: And there's lots of pictures, and it's it's heartbreaking.
• 7:34
  SPEAKER_01: Like I as a mom, I started tearing up um reading this and looking at the pictures, uh, because this this is definitely scary.
• 7:45
  SPEAKER_01: And I don't want to discount what happened to this little girl and to anybody who's gotten sick from consuming raw milk, because it does happen, right?
• 7:57
  SPEAKER_01: But what I want to do is actually go through the reasons that they have laid forth that we should not be consuming raw milk, and let's debate them like one by one.
• 8:10
  SPEAKER_00: Cena, before you go, I um I think it's interesting.
• 8:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I don't know whether you saw the article in, I don't know, was it in two weeks ago, uh, by Jeffrey Tucker, our friend at Brownstone Institute uh at Epoch Times.
• 8:28
  SPEAKER_00: And Brownstone Institute has just published over a 1,000-page book that uh is the verbatim um adverse reaction reports during COVID of adverse reactions from the COVID um mRNA jab.
• 8:49
  SPEAKER_00: So these have been on file in the CDC, the the um in the government files, and they've now been forced out by foyer requests and Bobby Kennedy to to be made public.
• 9:04
  SPEAKER_00: So Brownstone decided, let's just let's just publish them in a book, you know, like like test like you know, um uh letters from the front in the Civil War, letters from the the gulag, you know, letters from the concentration camps, you know, in Nazi Germany.
• 9:22
  SPEAKER_00: Uh yeah, there are numerous uh efforts of these that have been done.
• 9:26
  SPEAKER_00: And and and they're very they're very powerful because they're they're a real-time history, you know, in real-time, real testimonial, real witness.
• 9:33
  SPEAKER_00: Anyway, so so they did, and it's over a thousand pages.
• 9:36
  SPEAKER_00: Apparently, it's it's it's this huge, huge book.
• 9:40
  SPEAKER_00: And he committed himself to to do to do an audible, an audible um of the book.
• 9:48
  SPEAKER_00: And so he figured out that it would take him um two hours and uh uh reading two hours at a time, uh, something like 50 sessions to read this thing.
• 9:58
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be a hundred hours, okay, to read this thing.
• 10:01
  SPEAKER_00: And um so he started in.
• 10:04
  SPEAKER_00: And he's he's 200 pages in, and he can't do it anymore.
• 10:10
  SPEAKER_00: He said he said all I did was just was just weep.
• 10:14
  SPEAKER_00: I just wept.
• 10:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I'm I I I'm saying that not to not to diminish this what we're just getting ready to talk about, because I mean, one is tragic, okay?
• 10:27
  SPEAKER_00: But but I do think it's important to keep in perspective tragedy.
• 10:32
  SPEAKER_00: If you want to find tragedy, you can find tragedy anywhere.
• 10:37
  SPEAKER_00: And and there there is tragedy all over the place.
• 10:41
  SPEAKER_00: And so as a society, as a society, we have to figure out what tragedies we're going to actually um attack versus the tragedies that we're not going to attack.
• 11:01
  SPEAKER_00: And and and these um, every one of these uh tet testimonials is the actual words and the statements by the people who died and their caregivers from the COVID jab.
• 11:19
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and and he he said, I he said I have to put it aside.
• 11:23
  SPEAKER_00: I can't I can't do it anymore.
• 11:25
  SPEAKER_00: That's that's how powerful it was.
• 11:27
  SPEAKER_00: He just couldn't, couldn't so with that in mind, proceed.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 11:33
  SPEAKER_01: Well, and I think that's a great perspective too.
• 11:36
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, and actually a great segue into what I was gonna talk about because it's also critically important to be fair and balanced.
• 11:45
  SPEAKER_01: And what I saw in the reporting is one side, and I saw skewed um statistics being reported, and these are statistics from the government.
• 11:57
  SPEAKER_01: So I just want to provide some balance to it.
• 12:00
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that uh, as we know, we've talked about this before, fear really sells, right?
• 12:06
  SPEAKER_01: And tragedies elicit that fear-based response.
• 12:10
  SPEAKER_01: I I thought it was interesting to note that at the end of this article that I was reading online on people, it has this trending now section, you know, because it wants you to keep to stay on their website.
• 12:22
  SPEAKER_01: It has three articles that you could click on that are quote unquote trending now.
• 12:27
  SPEAKER_01: Let me just read you the titles of these three articles.
• 12:29
  SPEAKER_01: The first is health officials issue urgent warning about deadly bat virus after more than 40 people bitten in two weeks.
• 12:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so that's number one.
• 12:41
  SPEAKER_01: The second one, 195,000 Americans died in one month 108 years ago from one disease.
• 12:49
  SPEAKER_01: And the third one is man dies of Ebola in Kenya, marking country's first ever confirmed case of the disease.
• 12:58
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 13:01
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, you want you want to you want to uh uh crawl into a cocoon in a fetal position and uh wake me up when it's over.
• 13:09
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's just one more, you know, fear-based story after the next.
• 13:16
  SPEAKER_01: And I literally, if if I didn't already know about raw milk, I would have read that story as a mother, been completely freaked out, never given my kids any kind of raw milk or raw milk products.
• 13:29
  SPEAKER_01: And then I would have seen those other stories below it, and I would have been like, oh, well, we can't travel to that country, we can't go to that country, I'm putting you in a bubble, like, you know.
• 13:38
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's that whole thing of information saturation.
• 13:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's we've never had this much information and much this much information about other cultures before.
• 13:47
  SPEAKER_01: And sometimes it's to our detriment.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 13:51
  SPEAKER_00: I I you know, I I think your your point's well taken.
• 13:54
  SPEAKER_00: We I think we as humans, we are not spiritually and emotionally, we don't have the capacity to take in the real-time tragedy that we're besieged with every day.
• 14:07
  SPEAKER_00: You know, uh uh tsunami kills so many, uh, hurricane, you know, uh earthquake, whatever.
• 14:14
  SPEAKER_00: Uh and and you know, think about, think about long time ago, you just you you just couldn't know what happened in Indonesia.
• 14:24
  SPEAKER_00: You couldn't know what happened in Thailand.
• 14:27
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and the fact that now we are you know a sixth of a second away from everything that's happening on the globe, it's our human capacity was not designed for that.
• 14:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, it's it's definitely too much.
• 14:43
  SPEAKER_01: So you have to take breaks from from digital things.
• 14:48
  SPEAKER_01: And and you know, one thing I walked away with Joel as an overarching um idea uh in this story is that okay, this is a huge tragedy that's happened.
• 15:00
  SPEAKER_01: But instead of acknowledging that parents are actively trying to flee the system to heal children's guts, their allergies, they want to get away from the ultra-processed grocery staples.
• 15:17
  SPEAKER_01: Instead of that, the acknowledging that, the public health officials are treating this consumer demand, this increased demand in real food, including real raw milk, they're treating it as like an infectious form of digital ignorance.
• 15:32
  SPEAKER_01: And we have to stamp it out by either censoring the people who are talking about the health health benefits of raw milk and or putting state bans on there.
• 15:41
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't even have the choice to consume the raw milk, right?
• 15:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I I think once again, it's treating us as um ignorant little children that you know can't even have um that need to just have the choice completely taken away from us.
• 16:00
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:01
  SPEAKER_01: Now piggybacking on that, I feel like, and this is where I wanted to get your opinion, because you know more about bird flu um than I do about what's happening, you know, in the last year, for example.
• 16:14
  SPEAKER_01: So the American Academy of Pediatrics is also piggybacking on the bird flu scare.
• 16:22
  SPEAKER_01: So what they're saying is that um we have that, you know, the H5N1 bird flu, and we know that it can the bird flu can um infect bovine c cows, and it will infect their mammary tissue.
• 16:41
  SPEAKER_01: And they're saying that, you know, there are document documented there's documented evidence that it can get into the unpasteurized fluid milk.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 16:51
  SPEAKER_01: And so now they're using that theoretical risk as a new justification for this blanket prohibition.
• 17:00
  SPEAKER_01: The CDC is saying that um, and they have this on their website, that you can feed a mouse uh milk that has H5N1, you know, the bird flu virus in it, or whatever it is, you can feed a mouse that and it can show symptoms, right?
• 17:23
  SPEAKER_01: But they're also admitting that there's zero documented cases of humans contracting bird flu from drinking raw milk.
• 17:32
  SPEAKER_01: So it's a theory right now.
• 17:34
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, again, no documented cases.
• 17:37
  SPEAKER_01: They're saying it's possible, right?
• 17:40
  SPEAKER_01: It's possible because we do have these avian influenza receptors.
• 17:46
  SPEAKER_01: Like, but there it's thought that they're overwhelmingly concentrated in the lower respiratory tract, like your deep lung alveoli.
• 17:55
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and there's very little of them in the upper airwaves and the mouth and the throat.
• 18:00
  SPEAKER_01: So the CDC admits that if we were going to get bird flu from drinking raw milk, it would require either a rare binding to those upper receptors or microaspiration.
• 18:12
  SPEAKER_01: So, like you're accidentally inhaling fluid into the deep lungs while you're swallowing.
• 18:17
  SPEAKER_02: Oh my god.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 18:19
  SPEAKER_01: So it's theoretically possible, right?
• 18:22
  SPEAKER_01: We do have cases of humans uh who work with dairy cows, like the one in Texas who got conjunctivitis, and and they will, they have been infected, but they have good things like pink eye, you know, and that's from like mucus, like it's splashing or aerosolizing droplets exposure, right?
• 18:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's not from gastrointestinal ingestion.
• 18:46
  SPEAKER_01: So it's, I feel like this federal agency um in the media, they've conflated this mammalian laboratory feeding experiment with the rats with this confirmed human illness of pink eye to generate this panic and to reinforce that we should just have a blanket ban on raw milk.
• 19:08
  SPEAKER_01: So I feel like personally that's stretching a little bit to say that, oh, it could the cow could get bur flu and then they could give it to you.
• 19:19
  SPEAKER_01: No cases right now of that happening.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 19:22
  SPEAKER_01: Are are you seeing that bird flu is still a problem?
• 19:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, are we still having a lot of cases of this in in backyard chicken flocks or you know, big or in larger farms?
• 19:37
  SPEAKER_00: Um no, it's it's it's right now.
• 19:40
  SPEAKER_00: You see, bird flu cycles kind of with the weather.
• 19:45
  SPEAKER_00: It you know, it um um it it dissipates in the heat and um accelerates in the cold.
• 19:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so what the industry is whenever there's an outbreak in February in the industry, they just hope we have an early spring.
• 20:03
  SPEAKER_00: Because there's a definite relationship between uh on heat and cold.
• 20:08
  SPEAKER_00: So so it cycles.
• 20:10
  SPEAKER_00: So right now we're at the end of a summer, and so there's not much going on uh you know in the bird flu uh arena.
• 20:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh we just we just haven't had much lately.
• 20:19
  SPEAKER_00: But uh but it it it's I mean it still happens, but it's very, very um it's not it's not enough to make the news right now.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 20:29
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, I was only I was able to find one uh news report, and this was actually just from um October 19th.
• 20:38
  SPEAKER_01: So for us, that was yesterday.
• 20:40
  SPEAKER_01: And they found bird flu in Washington dairy cattle for the first time.
• 20:46
  SPEAKER_01: Uh they said it was a confirmed bird flu infection in the cattle, and one person tested positive.
• 20:52
  SPEAKER_01: It was in Yakima County, a um dairy farm, first known case in Washington dairy cattle.
• 20:59
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but that's the only one that you know really leaped out when I did a search.
• 21:05
  SPEAKER_02: Right, right.
• 21:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, not a huge thing at this point.
• 21:08
  SPEAKER_01: I will say that have you heard that in Australia they're starting to vaccinate penguins against wild penguins against bird flu.
• 21:18
  SPEAKER_01: This is on um in Victoria on the on the um Phillip Islands.
• 21:24
  SPEAKER_01: So one penguin was found dead, happened to test positive for bird flu.
• 21:29
  SPEAKER_01: So they're assuming assuming that bird died of bird flu.
• 21:33
  SPEAKER_01: And so now they've started to vaccinate these wild penguins.
• 21:37
  SPEAKER_01: They have to catch them and vaccinate them twice.
• 21:40
  SPEAKER_01: They vaccinated uh a thousand, over a thousand so far, and the goal is to vaccinate five thousand.
• 21:50
  SPEAKER_00: So man, it just doesn't stop.
• 21:56
  SPEAKER_01: I know, I know.
• 21:57
  SPEAKER_01: I'm like, oh, it's exhausting, right?
• 22:00
  SPEAKER_01: that there's our solution again to just catch these wild animals and vaccinate them.
• 22:04
  SPEAKER_01: So anyway.
• 22:13
  SPEAKER_00: Do people really think do people really think that all of a sudden after all these thousands of years of of planetary existence, that suddenly in 2026 and 2027, all the penguins are gonna die unless they're vaccinated?
• 22:38
  SPEAKER_00: I mean it just it just doesn't make any sense.
• 22:40
  SPEAKER_00: It's just not reasonable to think that after all these thousands of years of of um cyclical you know ups and downs and cold and hot and and ice ages and many ice ages and and volcanic eruptions that uh you know blanket the planet uh that that suddenly this year the the the new the new thing is suddenly if we don't vaccinate these penguins they're all gonna die.
• 23:08
  SPEAKER_00: Are you kidding me?
• 23:10
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah well according to their computer modeling they said uh huh worst case computer modeling indicated that if the if they had an outbreak and it went unchecked even for six weeks it could kill between 8,000 and 16,000 little penguins so the computer models told them that they should do it.
• 23:36
  SPEAKER_00: And and and are and are we sure that um that 5,000 years ago there wasn't a a time when we lost 8 to 1600 penguins?
• 23:46
  SPEAKER_01: So I don't think we know that but you know what what one of the differences may be is that um that it's these little penguins help the regional economies.
• 23:59
  SPEAKER_01: They they have this famous nightly penguin parade at Phillip Island.
• 24:03
  SPEAKER_01: It draws hundreds of thousands of tourists annually making the colony a vital driver of local and state tourism so we could not have these little penguins die.
• 24:14
  SPEAKER_00: We cannot have these little penguins die.
• 24:16
  SPEAKER_00: We could not we could not allow a natural cyclical occurrence and and not that I'm advocating for them to die.
• 24:24
  SPEAKER_01: Clearly I don't want these little penguins to die.
• 24:26
  SPEAKER_01: I'm just saying there's an ulterior motive here and I think it's worse to give them this you know this vaccine for the bird flu.
• 24:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah I mean but that's a whole nother topic.
• 24:37
  SPEAKER_01: Okay so there so this even though like you're not seeing this in a lot of the the farms you know and the farmers that you talk to they're still um keeping it somewhat you know in the forefront in the media and so they're gonna piggyback on that as well to try to push this blanket ban on raw milk.
• 25:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay so now if you look in their statement one of the things they're saying as I mentioned was that they're claiming that the new data is arguing that states who are expanding direct to consumer sales saw a corresponding rise in foodborne um illnesses they're saying that 79% of dairy associated outbreaks stem from raw dairy.
• 25:32
  SPEAKER_01: Okay but this is this is really nuanced.
• 25:34
  SPEAKER_01: So the first thing I wanted to get into and I love your help Joel with this is I don't think many people know that when the CDC collects data into their database, they do not make a distinction between certified tested raw milk that's made for drinking and raw commodity bulk tank fluid milk that is destined to go to the industrial processing plant.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 26:05
  SPEAKER_01: So um and I I want to help I want you to help tease out what's the difference between that most people don't really understand that there's bulk tank fluid milk that goes someplace and that these milks get combined together.
• 26:18
  SPEAKER_00: So can you walk us through that and then I'll piggyback on with some of the statistics well most milk Sena goes to further processing goes to ice cream butter cheese it some sort of yogurt it goes to further what we call cottage cheese.
• 26:45
  SPEAKER_00: Most milk is actually not drunk as fluid milk.
• 26:49
  SPEAKER_00: I don't know what the percentage is but uh but it's less than 50% of milk produced does not does not get drunk as fluid milk.
• 26:57
  SPEAKER_00: It gets further processed.
• 27:00
  SPEAKER_00: So um so when a dairy farm sells into so you've got you've got milk cows and uh when it when it when they the the the the milk goes into a tank and then a truck comes and picks up that milk from the tank that milk is designated essentially at at milking uh from the farm that farm is a supplier of a further processing outfit okay and and so in the industry there's a huge difference in milk that's destined for further processing versus milk that is destined for liquid human consumption and and those those and the the the protocols handling protocols all that stuff are are are different uh grade A milk grade B milk grade B milk goes to processing grade A milk is acceptable for human consumption and the and the differences in sanitation hygiene uh cleaning protocols all those things are very very different between between the different grades yeah exactly and so the the industrial milk right the one that's c being collected in these bulk tanks and then brought to these processing plants uh that one is actually the the process and the um you know what you just described of like the sanitation steps and whatnot that one I consider a little more quote unquote lenient because they know that that milk is going to be pasteurized right yes that's right um so they're expecting that milk to be quote like kind of like dirtier.
• 28:56
  SPEAKER_01: So for example um I've read in some of the documents the government documents that the the government allows grade A milk this this is the bulk tank milk it can contain up to a hundred thousand CFUs so think of that as like um microbial counts so it can contain up to a hundred thousand CFUs it it's it's an what it is is pus.
• 29:22
  SPEAKER_01: It's it's we're getting pretty graphic here but but that that is somatic cell count of uh which is which is an indicator of infection of pus yes so okay so the CFU um so you break it down with colony forming units yes so this is the amount of the live like viable microorganisms like bacteria and yeast that are in that sample colony forming units so you so the grade A bulk tank milk can contain up to a hundred thousand CFUs colony forming units per what?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Per what?
• 30:02
  SPEAKER_00: Per mil per mil per mil okay per mil.
• 30:07
  SPEAKER_01: Yep now compare that to the certified raw milk baseline uh it has to be less than 15,000 CFU per bill okay and it and many dairies um achieve less than 5000 CFU per mil.
• 30:23
  SPEAKER_01: So you got 100,000 versus 15000 okay then comes in what you were talking about Joel the somatic cell count what what many of us call the pus count in this industrial milk it can have up to 7500 cells per mil in the raw milk it has to have um less than 4000 cells per milk all right so um and then also in the raw milk they do um coliform counts which has to be less than 10 CFU so that's a whole different regulation there than on the bulk milk.
• 31:05
  SPEAKER_01: Now and the reason why I'm really going through all these nuances with you is because I don't think people really understand that the milk has different standards and that they're treated differently and there's a consequence to that.
• 31:19
  SPEAKER_01: So the CDC itself wrote a review this was this was in 2015 they wrote a review and they said that 71% of the raw milk outbreaks originated from these bulk tank sources these were predominantly that grade A milk that you were talking about and it's when farm families and farm workers consumed that bulk tank milk on site and sometimes they share it with people, right?
• 31:50
  SPEAKER_01: Like friends, neighbors, people in their community.
• 31:53
  SPEAKER_01: So 71% of the actual raw milk outbreaks occurred from a bulk tank source.
• 31:59
  SPEAKER_01: That means that milk was not designed to be consumed raw, right?
• 32:04
  SPEAKER_01: It was designed to go on like you said to a processor and be pasteurized.
• 32:09
  SPEAKER_01: Only 13% of the raw milk outbreaks were linked to licensed commercial retail sellers.
• 32:18
  SPEAKER_01: Okay so the vast majority were from these bulk tank sources.
• 32:22
  SPEAKER_01: So that's the first thing and that's what I'm saying like they got their headline right the American Academy of Pediatrics got the headline oh 71% of the milk outbreaks of I mean you know all right 70% of these outbreaks are caused by raw milk or whatnot.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 32:38
  SPEAKER_01: So they got the headline but there's always nuances behind it and it really matters the data behind the behind these statistics.
• 32:46
  SPEAKER_01: So first of all only 13% versus 71% they're mainly coming from that other way of farming.
• 32:54
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah the uh I I I think I think um another way to just make this practical so folks can understand it is uh is grain harvesting.
• 33:02
  SPEAKER_00: So there there are there are totally different standards for uh grain going to human edible flour like to Pillsbury to a Pillsbury mill um they can only have uh something like you know three mouse turds per ton or some such thing.
• 33:20
  SPEAKER_00: No no I'm I'm sure you you can look this up you can look this up you know I don't think I've ever heard you say turds okay uh mouse turds all right um but but uh including um foreign material like like um um weed seeds or something else okay so so there are and and and I I'm telling you I've talked to numerous people here because you know some grain is grown in the valley and there's there's actually a I think it's a Pillsbury mill in Roanoke and farmers will go down there and they'll reject it because it's got too many and then they have to come up and feed it to cows or feed it to chickens or something and so they're looking for another outlet.
• 33:59
  SPEAKER_00: So this is an example of where of where you have you have completely different um standards for two completely different market opportunities and and I can tell you every farm around here that grows wheat their gold standard boy if if if if it tests clean enough to go to the Pillsbury plant they get twice as much as they get if they got to feed it to animals.
• 34:25
  SPEAKER_00: Okay and and so uh that that that those kinds of grading differences are throughout the food system.
• 34:35
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah yeah um and then to to emphasize the difference in quality there the USGA itself did a study and they consistently showed that up to 28% of these commercial bulk coin tanks harbored what they called pathogens uh specifically salmonella and capillobacter so this is why I say these these industrial dairies they operate knowing that downstream heat pasteurization is going to serve as an end of pipeline kill step for this contamination okay now also if you look at the CDC's data they did this cheese study and they reported that the majority of severe hospitalizations, miscarriages and deaths under this unpasteurized dairy banner stem from unlicensed and uninspected Mexican style fresh soft cheeses like the Queso fresco cheeses.
• 35:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay so so again what I'm talking about is when an organization like the American Academy of Pediatrics looks at even the CDC's own data, one of the things they're doing is they're looking at oh, how many sicknesses or deaths occurred from this unpasteurized dairy category.
• 35:57
  SPEAKER_01: And I'm saying they're misinterpreting the data because first of all, they're not understanding that there's these bulk tank fluid milk collection which is separate and most of these illnesses are coming from that.
• 36:11
  SPEAKER_01: And number two, the CDC itself is saying a lot of these sicknesses are coming from this soft cheese.
• 36:19
  SPEAKER_01: So what they said is this cheese usually is made in this is according to the the CDC study they said that it's usually made in private homes or even street operations without cold chain controls, which causes listeria you know to grow there.
• 36:39
  SPEAKER_01: So they um they said that unlike like an aged hard cheese like a cheddar or a gouda parmesan these soft cheeses they have a lot of moisture and low acidity that creates this fertile breeding ground for listeria listeria happens to carry a high mortality rate it's 20 to 30% according to their statistics and it does primarily affect pregnant women um you know unborn babies you know young babies and um it can result in death and they even though it's from the processing method and listeria growing on it it's also clumped into that raw dairy category okay so so that's another nuance to it then comes what I thought was the really interesting part so the American Academy of pediatrics is saying again that the state legalization of raw milk leads to more illnesses.
• 37:44
  SPEAKER_01: This is not accurate.
• 37:46
  SPEAKER_01: So you can't look at straight case numbers you have to divide the case numbers by the number of people consuming raw milk.
• 37:54
  SPEAKER_01: And this is true like when you're evaluating food safety if you only look at the raw tally of cases without dividing by how many people drink the raw milk that's a dishonest epidemiology practice.
• 38:09
  SPEAKER_01: You're being a dishonest scientist.
• 38:11
  SPEAKER_01: So let's give a quick example so everyone's on the same page here.
• 38:15
  SPEAKER_01: Let's say we're looking at car accidents and we have a tiny town of 100 people and there was five car accidents that's a 5% crash rate or like one in 20.
• 38:26
  SPEAKER_01: Now let's say you have a city of a million people and there's 50 car accidents the crash rate is 0.005% one in 2000 but you can look at this as a regulator and look at the raw numbers five accidents in the little town versus 50 accidents in the big city and you can say oh a big city is 10 times more dangerous right because they had 50 car accidents and small town had five accidents.
• 38:51
  SPEAKER_01: But the tiny town is actually a thousand times more hazardous per driver because you have to divide it by how many people are actually driving.
• 38:59
  SPEAKER_01: You see what I'm saying?
• 39:00
  SPEAKER_01: So they're not doing that.
• 39:02
  SPEAKER_00: They're looking at the raw numbers so if you look at this there's a couple there's a study that did look at the control in um in growth in population and the and the control for consumption and this was from 2018 they showed that raw milk consumption in the United States grew by 357% okay even though it grew that much the outbreak rate declined significantly so here's here is a quote from that study the rate of unpasteurized milk associated outbreaks has been declining since 2010 despite increasing legal distribution controlling for growth in population and consumption the outbreak rate has effectively decreased by 74% since 2005 and in some states like Vermont and Washington where they have like this clean testing and inspection standards the outbreak dropped to nearly zero so document a study saying actually it's the opposite when you couldn't when you normalize it for consumption the rate has dropped then Joel I found another study Wait before you before you do that I want to make sure that we haven't lost people when when they say that in the the in the states that are increasing raw milk illnesses going up you're saying back back to your car I want to I want to make sure everybody followed the car analogy that it that though those states raw milk consumption is up in those states illnesses are up but those states that it is up are consuming they have a much higher population and a my much higher consumption rate so as a as a percentage of your actual potential of getting sick it is not up but the total aggregate number of illnesses is up in those states simply because more milk's being consumed there.
• 41:18
  SPEAKER_01: Exactly just like you would probably have more car accidents in more populated areas because there's more people there.
• 41:26
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah but the percentage would be down that's right or they don't go to the honky tonk and get drunk.
• 41:34
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah they they instead they ride they ride the sub home subway home instead of trying to drive home from the honky tonk.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: Yes.
• 41:41
  SPEAKER_01: So while this study from 2024 is saying that the um the illness and outbreaks remain flat for raw milk what's interesting is that a lot of people think that as long as the milk is pasteurized, they're safe.
• 41:58
  SPEAKER_01: But this study also concluded that pasteurized dairy is one of the leading causes of fatal foodborne disease.
• 42:07
  SPEAKER_01: So here's a quote from this study fatal foodborne disease was dominated by fruits, vegetables, peanut butter and pasteurized dairy.
• 42:17
  SPEAKER_01: They concluded the available evidence conflicts with assumptions of zero risk for pasteurized milk.
• 42:25
  SPEAKER_01: So again in if you looked at just the raw numbers in this study the pasteurized milk resulted in more total recorded illnesses and fatalities during that 16 year period than did the um the raw milk.
• 42:43
  SPEAKER_01: But again that is misleading you have to do the relative risk the per serving rate so on a per glass or per consumer basis basis the raw milk still carried a higher statistical rate of illness because it has um you know less people are consuming it but it's still the same point that um so that so anyways I'm just trying to be fair and balanced on on that aspect um to let you know that when you look at these studies, you you have to be consistent across the studies in your analysis um and you have to be aware of the absolute versus relative risk.
• 43:23
  SPEAKER_01: But my point in bringing this up is that there's still fatal outbreaks that are caused by pasteurized milk.
• 43:35
  SPEAKER_01: So don't be under this illusion that just because they've treated it with heat, it means that that it's safe to consume.
• 43:44
  SPEAKER_01: Okay now get this this is even better there's a 2024 study in the Journal of Epidemiology and global health this was a 16 year longitudinal analysis and they examined The CDC's own data from 2005 through 2020, okay.
• 44:06
  SPEAKER_01: They did not divide the case numbers by the number of people actually consuming the raw milk.
• 44:12
  SPEAKER_01: Instead, they just used the absolute outbreak and illness counts.
• 44:16
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 44:17
  SPEAKER_01: In spite of that, the data still showed that even though there was widespread state legalization, illness and outbreaks remained flat.
• 44:30
  unknown: Flat.
• 44:30
  SPEAKER_01: And they're saying across the nation, it remained flat.
• 44:34
  SPEAKER_01: So this is in stark contrast to what the uh American Academy of Pediatrics is claiming.
• 44:43
  SPEAKER_01: It's not what the data actually shows.
• 44:45
  SPEAKER_01: You have to, if you're I think that this is one reason why people don't trust the science.
• 44:51
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and I'm not saying that the AAP is doing this nefariously, you know, like I'm it may in fact be incompetence, right?
• 45:01
  SPEAKER_01: That they're they're not trained in looking at the data.
• 45:04
  SPEAKER_01: So they may look at this and and they're just regurgitating things that they're finding, like on the CBC's website, for example, right?
• 45:11
  SPEAKER_01: It may be a totally innocent thing.
• 45:14
  SPEAKER_01: Regardless, it's wrong.
• 45:16
  SPEAKER_01: And what they're doing is they are spreading the misinformation.
• 45:20
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah, yeah.
• 45:21
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I I just I just thought of a good one.
• 45:23
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I think it's a good one.
• 45:24
  SPEAKER_00: You correct me if I'm wrong.
• 45:26
  SPEAKER_00: It'd be like saying um there are uh in a in a if if you go to a populist state uh with more pediatricians, there is there are more sicknesses in a state with more pediatricians.
• 45:43
  SPEAKER_00: Because it's a populist state with more kids.
• 45:45
  SPEAKER_00: That's right.
• 45:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so the result is pediatricians are causing sickness because because there's there's more state, there's more illness, sick child, there's more ch sick children in a state with more pediatricians.
• 45:56
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 45:57
  SPEAKER_01: Yep.
• 45:58
  SPEAKER_01: I know it's crazy.
• 45:59
  SPEAKER_01: If they just stop and think about it, that you you'll realize, you know, what you're doing.
• 46:06
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so I mean, because you know, there's like relative risk and absolute risk and the whole thing.
• 46:12
  SPEAKER_01: But anyway, uh we've probably belabored that long enough.
• 46:15
  SPEAKER_01: This was an interesting one.
• 46:17
  SPEAKER_01: This was interesting to me.
• 46:19
  SPEAKER_01: Um, they are claiming that raw milk and pasteurized milk are basically the same thing.
• 46:30
  SPEAKER_01: They said that um pasteurization does not alter the nutritional value of milk.
• 46:39
  SPEAKER_01: And this bans this this justifies the banning of the raw milk because you can just drink the pasteurized milk and get the same nutritional value.
• 46:48
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 46:49
  SPEAKER_01: So I looked in this section because I I was shocked that someone would say that.
• 46:55
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, but I looked in this section to break down what are they actually using to determine that the nutritional value is the same.
• 47:05
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 47:06
  SPEAKER_01: This will not surprise you, Joel.
• 47:08
  SPEAKER_01: They cited there was no difference in the fat content, the lactose content, the protein content, uh, the calcium, magnesium, and zinc.
• 47:19
  unknown: Right?
• 47:20
  SPEAKER_01: So, what does that sound like?
• 47:22
  SPEAKER_01: That sounds like our nutrition facts panel, like it, you know, in large part, we're we're back to macronutrients and we're back to, you know, why do we drink milk?
• 47:31
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 47:32
  SPEAKER_01: What is the bill of goods we were sold on why we drink milk?
• 47:36
  SPEAKER_01: It's for protein, it's for calcium, right?
• 47:40
  SPEAKER_01: And so they're saying, oh, the protein content is the same, the calcium content is the same.
• 47:45
  SPEAKER_01: And this is a quote from them.
• 47:46
  SPEAKER_01: So they said that, so they recognized that vitamin B2 was lower when when the milk was pasteurized, but this is what they said.
• 47:55
  SPEAKER_01: For for vitamins for which milk is an important dietary source, pasteurization caused a decrease only in vitamin B2.
• 48:04
  SPEAKER_01: So they are deciding, oh, okay, for vitamins for which milk is an important dietary source.
• 48:11
  SPEAKER_00: So all the rest of them are not an important diet, uh, not an important dietary uh issue.
• 48:16
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 48:17
  SPEAKER_01: So there's yeah, they're saying that we only drink milk to get these other vitamins, and you know, not B2.
• 48:23
  SPEAKER_01: So nothing to worry about here, right?
• 48:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um they're also saying that that these like social media influencers and whatnot are saying that raw milk has superior nutritional value and digestive benefits, and they're saying that's not supported by the scientific literature.
• 48:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um and so I I want to give you a couple of examples here, but what what I'm saying is their claims are intellectually dishonest.
• 48:54
  SPEAKER_02: Yeah.
• 48:55
  SPEAKER_01: Because they are reducing nutrition down to these crude static macronutrients that are on the food label.
• 49:01
  SPEAKER_01: I mean, it it sounds like a government talking point fat, protein, calcium, you know.
• 49:06
  SPEAKER_01: And there, and so basically, because we're drinking milk as strictly a source of protein and calcium, everything is fine.
• 49:17
  SPEAKER_01: It's just again, reductionist thinking.
• 49:19
  SPEAKER_01: Like, don't look over here, you know.
• 49:21
  SPEAKER_01: The problem is the heat from pasteurization, yeah, it doesn't change the total weight of the nitrogen or the elemental minerals, but it does destroy tertiary conformations of proteins like enzymatic activity, uh, proteins that have biological signaling.
• 49:40
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and so so let me give so that this let's bring this down to a level that everybody can understand, right?
• 49:46
  SPEAKER_01: Because I want people to walk away understanding why some people choose raw milk.
• 49:52
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 49:53
  SPEAKER_01: So in in bovine milk, most of the protein is casein, right?
• 50:01
  SPEAKER_01: Um they they can form curds and they're heat stable in large part.
• 50:05
  SPEAKER_01: And less of the less of the protein is whey.
• 50:08
  SPEAKER_01: This is the soluble, like active liquid fraction.
• 50:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whey consists of like globulin proteins, immunoglobulins, like I said, ciglium peptides, enzymes.
• 50:19
  SPEAKER_01: These things are all important because they provide um like the ability for tissue repair.
• 50:27
  SPEAKER_01: They can uh they can modulate your immune system, they can help promote um, you know, decrease in inflammation.
• 50:36
  SPEAKER_01: Now, I'll say not in everybody, right?
• 50:38
  SPEAKER_01: Some people can't have milk, some people can't have A1 milk, but they can have A2, A2 raw milk.
• 50:43
  SPEAKER_01: So those are all caveats.
• 50:45
  SPEAKER_01: But I'm gonna just clump all raw milk together right now for simplicity.
• 50:49
  SPEAKER_01: Um, whey also is rich in a sulfur-containing amino acids like cysteine and methionine.
• 50:55
  SPEAKER_01: Those are actually needed to make glutathione.
• 50:59
  SPEAKER_01: That is your body's master antioxidant, right?
• 51:04
  SPEAKER_01: So uh so that's one way in which raw milk can help you.
• 51:08
  SPEAKER_01: It can boost your master antioxidant.
• 51:11
  SPEAKER_01: Heat can actually destroy um or denature, we would say, whey.
• 51:18
  SPEAKER_01: And it depends on what type of heat, like how hot, what duration, but it's anywhere between 10 and 90 percent.
• 51:27
  SPEAKER_01: So here's some quick examples of what it can do.
• 51:31
  SPEAKER_01: You have something called alkaline phosphatase, and it is an enzyme that helps to defend your mucus lining in your gastrointestinal tract.
• 51:41
  SPEAKER_01: It can neutralize um endotoxins, which in general there's these bacterial lipopolysaccharides, LPSs, which are endotoxins, and they can cross um a leaky intestinal barrier and cause like autoimmune reactions, metabolic syndrome, you name it.
• 52:01
  SPEAKER_01: So these alkaline phosphatases or ALP can actually neutralize those endotoxins in your gut lumen, and that helps to safeguard your tight junction integrity.
• 52:12
  SPEAKER_01: Well, pasteurization just denatures them.
• 52:16
  SPEAKER_01: So it eliminates that enzyme's ability to detoxify those bacterial endotoxins, right?
• 52:23
  SPEAKER_01: Then we have another one, lactoferrin.
• 52:25
  SPEAKER_01: This is an antimicrobial defense.
• 52:29
  SPEAKER_01: They um they have a high affinity for free ferric iron.
• 52:34
  SPEAKER_01: And um gut pathogens like some types of E.
• 52:38
  SPEAKER_01: coli and salmonella require free iron and able to proliferate in your gut.
• 52:44
  SPEAKER_01: So if this lactoferin sequesters it, it exerts like this, what we call this um bacteriostatic effect while also delivering bioavailable iron directly to your intestinal receptors to be absorbed into your body.
• 52:59
  SPEAKER_01: So it helps you with iron absorption while it's actually helping to stave off a pathogenic E.
• 53:05
  SPEAKER_01: coli.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: All right.
• 53:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it can also increase natural killer cells, which can help with cancer, for example.
• 53:15
  SPEAKER_01: Uh, then you have this, and this is the last one I'll give an example of.
• 53:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but you have also in raw milk, you have these immunoglobulins, and they're thought of as like this allergic asthma shield.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: Okay.
• 53:27
  SPEAKER_01: So raw milk contains native IgG, IgA, IgM.
• 53:33
  SPEAKER_01: These are native antibodies, and they combined to um pathogens, what you would call pathogens, overgrowths in the gastrointestinal tract, and neutralize the antigens before they provoke an immune response.
• 53:46
  SPEAKER_01: So there was a study, um, the Gabriella and Parsifal evidence.
• 53:53
  SPEAKER_01: These are two different studies.
• 53:56
  SPEAKER_01: Let's take the one study, Gabriella.
• 53:57
  SPEAKER_01: They looked at over 8,000 children, and they said that farm milk consumption, so this is raw milk, was strongly protective against asthma, eczema, hay fever, and food and drug reactions through this immunoglobulin E antibody response.
• 54:16
  SPEAKER_01: Critically, researchers have established that that protection from you know using raw milk, this protection is uh independently correlated with the level of native undenatured whey protein, meaning the protein that's in raw milk.
• 54:38
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, and that heat-treated commercial milk offered zero protection.
• 54:45
  SPEAKER_01: So there's a huge distinction here.
• 54:47
  SPEAKER_01: So I know, like I, you know, I got down into some of the you know, gobbly gook of science, but I think it's really important for people to understand these nuances.
• 54:56
  SPEAKER_01: There are huge differences between the two milks.
• 55:00
  SPEAKER_01: Um, it's not to say that there's never going to be uh or that there aren't any outbreaks or contaminated milk supplies.
• 55:09
  SPEAKER_01: There are, right?
• 55:11
  SPEAKER_01: There's also people who get sick from drinking pasteurized milk because even that one doesn't kill everything.
• 55:17
  SPEAKER_01: That's well known.
• 55:18
  SPEAKER_01: Um, but what we're seeing is, or what what what a problem could be is that when just because milk gets banned, right?
• 55:27
  SPEAKER_01: Like let's say American Academy of Pediatrics gets their way and the milk sales are banned, it's not gonna stop those moms, you know, who want to feed their children living whole food.
• 55:41
  SPEAKER_01: It's not gonna stop them from getting the milk.
• 55:43
  SPEAKER_01: They're gonna find other ways to get it, right?
• 55:47
  SPEAKER_01: And so that's gonna create more of like this black or gray market where you're gonna have probably more problems of having you know potentially more unclean milk being sold.
• 55:59
  SPEAKER_00: So that's a possibility.
• 56:02
  SPEAKER_00: Do you let me ask you this uh from a if you've been watching this, do you think that the that this is an effort, would this also um close down herd share?
• 56:16
  SPEAKER_00: Is it would that be uh something that they're trying to do as well?
• 56:21
  SPEAKER_01: I personally think the answer is yes, uh, because they're wanting to close all sale of it, and um I think that's just a slippery slope, right?
• 56:34
  SPEAKER_00: So look, I can't include including the pet food, including the pet food loophole.
• 56:42
  SPEAKER_01: Including the pet food loophole, because listen, they are citing that tragedy that happened to that little girl, and the mom bought the milk that was labeled as for pet consumption, and she found out about it from a Facebook group, right, supporting raw milk consumption, um, along with like, you know, local alternative practitioner.
• 57:06
  SPEAKER_01: So, yes, I I do think that they're gonna reach for all of it.
• 57:11
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you know, going through each state is different, right?
• 57:14
  SPEAKER_01: Some states don't have the hurt share option, but I do think they'll probably reach in and try to take that as well.
• 57:20
  SPEAKER_01: Or at least that might be the goal.
• 57:23
  SPEAKER_01: And they might shoot for the moon and land on a star.
• 57:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know.
• 57:26
  SPEAKER_00: Well, you know, you know, all of these things uh that are at the state level, um they they kind of take on an energy and a life of their own.
• 57:37
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, think of like charter schools.
• 57:39
  SPEAKER_00: Uh charter schools, you know, started in one place and people hear about it, oh let's do that here.
• 57:46
  SPEAKER_00: And so you get this, you get this kind of um um accretion, you know, uh state to state as the various agencies go to the go to the same go to the same conference.
• 57:58
  SPEAKER_00: Hey, you know, here's what we're doing over here.
• 58:00
  SPEAKER_00: You know, and they it's a kind of fraternal thing.
• 58:03
  SPEAKER_00: And so if there if there becomes a true crusade uh uh against um against raw milk, they will probably go for making it putting it in the same category as cocaine.
• 58:24
  SPEAKER_00: You just just and just an illegal substance that you simply cannot use or go.
• 58:30
  SPEAKER_00: And and so this will this will be to the point of the spear.
• 58:34
  SPEAKER_00: And so the outset of this of this podcast, and we're uh starting to run out of time, uh, you said this is not about raw milk, it's about it's about personal agency on autonomy for your health.
• 58:47
  SPEAKER_00: And so so if if the if if it is successful to actually place raw milk into a completely prohibited thing like cocaine, let's just stay with that, easy to say, cocaine, then then you start down a path to something else.
• 59:13
  SPEAKER_00: Um tomatoes grown with compost.
• 59:16
  SPEAKER_00: Uh you start down with uh um you know any number of biological alternatives to chemical or AI or laser beams or electronic man, you know.
• 59:29
  SPEAKER_00: Uh uh it starts you down this this this crazy path.
• 59:33
  SPEAKER_00: Um I I would um I would a couple things here that to just uh mention.
• 59:46
  SPEAKER_00: One is so I work with farmers who butcher chickens, and and some of them, you know, they have summer interns.
• 59:55
  SPEAKER_00: We we we have we have we call them summer stewards, but summer interns.
• 1:00:00
  SPEAKER_00: And what I'm hearing is that more and more they're having, and we've seen just a little bit of this, not not as much as some I've heard, but uh where these young people come in and they get sick as soon as they start gutting a chicken.
• 1:00:17
  SPEAKER_00: They get some chicken manure on their hands, next thing you know, they're sick.
• 1:00:21
  SPEAKER_00: Um this didn't used to happen.
• 1:00:24
  SPEAKER_00: You know, they'd come in and they would be fine.
• 1:00:26
  SPEAKER_00: Start, okay, we're butchering chickens, it'll be fine.
• 1:00:29
  SPEAKER_00: What's happening is the hygiene hypothesis, the hygiene hypothesis, which was signed by hundreds of doctors 30 years ago, that says your immune system is like a muscle and it needs to be exercised, which is the reason why I routinely drink out of the cow tank with the cows, um, it needs that exercise that that these young people are coming in to these biological, non-sterile, very, you know, uh uh uh organic, uh diversified, biologically microbially active farms, and they're coming from hot pockets and and uh Velveeta cheese, and they've been so sanitized that their gut can't handle this sudden onslaught of stuff.
• 1:01:22
  SPEAKER_00: I know I know raw milk producers who who actually uh have kind of a um a checklist for new customers, new clients, and for for for what they've been eating, how they've been living, that sort of thing.
• 1:01:38
  SPEAKER_00: And they'll actually go down this checklist and recommend you should not start drinking this.
• 1:01:43
  SPEAKER_00: You should take uh you should take one teaspoon a day for a week.
• 1:01:50
  SPEAKER_00: And then you can go to a tablespoon a day for a week to to to uh you know to gentle into it.
• 1:02:00
  SPEAKER_00: Because if you have been living in a completely sterile lifestyle and box, actual you know uh living food can suddenly be toxic.
• 1:02:14
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I go out, I grab a I grab a carrot out of the out of the garden and just wipe it off on my britches.
• 1:02:21
  SPEAKER_00: Well, there's still little pieces of dirt and stuff on it.
• 1:02:23
  SPEAKER_00: I eat them all the time.
• 1:02:24
  SPEAKER_00: It's it's not a problem.
• 1:02:26
  SPEAKER_00: But you take somebody that's living in a sterile environment and has never ingested anything like that, and it can overwhelm their uh their microbiome.
• 1:02:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, you know, we see the same thing with fermented foods, that sometimes, you know, when we're working with somebody who has like a chronic autoimmune condition, for example, they can't just start eating fermented foods.
• 1:02:53
  SPEAKER_01: They have to start with like a quarter teaspoon of the liquid or something like that, or like one little shred of cabbage and build up from there because they don't have that robust microbiome.
• 1:03:04
  SPEAKER_01: Um, so it's interesting we see the same thing.
• 1:03:06
  SPEAKER_01: And I think too, you know, it's worth noting that it doesn't just have to be you've lived in a sterile environment.
• 1:03:15
  SPEAKER_01: Living in this constant state or near constant state of fight or flight also creates imbalance in the microbiome.
• 1:03:23
  SPEAKER_01: Um, you know, I heard um Dr.
• 1:03:26
  SPEAKER_01: Sabine Hazan told me one time, she said the best thing that I do for my microbiome is I don't allow myself to get upset.
• 1:03:35
  SPEAKER_01: Huh.
• 1:03:36
  SPEAKER_01: Right.
• 1:03:37
  SPEAKER_01: So it's the whole thing, she's not gonna live in fight or flight, you know, is if that's in essence what she's saying.
• 1:03:43
  SPEAKER_01: Um, because we know that that affects negatively affects the microbiome so much.
• 1:03:48
  SPEAKER_00: So is it is it possible that I've got I've got two other things then to say as a result of that.
• 1:03:56
  SPEAKER_00: Is it possible that a mom that's in this, that's in this, I've got to protect my child.
• 1:04:03
  SPEAKER_00: My child has, you know, there is such a dither that that dither moves over to the child, and there's just in this environment of worry, fear, and and and and uh and concern that can actually trigger uh an adverse relax, an adverse reaction to milk.
• 1:04:24
  SPEAKER_00: Like you have an adverse reaction to um uh you know to uh um anything else, you know, vaccines or whatever.
• 1:04:32
  SPEAKER_00: The other thing that I would point out is that we are very, very different.
• 1:04:39
  SPEAKER_00: I'm thinking of I don't know how many other people drank this goat's milk from the from this farm.
• 1:04:46
  SPEAKER_00: But let's say that they've got, for sake of discussion, let's say they've got uh 30 customers.
• 1:04:53
  SPEAKER_00: You know, 30 people who who who come and get their milk each week.
• 1:05:00
  SPEAKER_00: You don't know we don't know how big this little outfit was.
• 1:05:04
  SPEAKER_01: I I don't know how big it is, but there was another child who was also affected.
• 1:05:10
  SPEAKER_01: But I know that there's at least two.
• 1:05:13
  SPEAKER_00: Okay.
• 1:05:14
  SPEAKER_00: Well, all I was gonna say was that you know we have we have lots and lots and lots of animals here.
• 1:05:22
  SPEAKER_00: I mean thousands.
• 1:05:24
  SPEAKER_00: And you kind of have this this thing that if let's say let's say we've got we've got 200 cows.
• 1:05:34
  SPEAKER_00: You go out and one of them is doesn't look good.
• 1:05:41
  SPEAKER_00: Well, we don't assume, oh no, oh no, our management must we better change the diet, we better change everything because we've got one cow that doesn't look good.
• 1:05:53
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you go out, we assume that if you got one cow of 200, that's gets that gets pink eye or or Head warts or worms.
• 1:06:04
  SPEAKER_00: We assume, well, all the other 199 are perfectly healthy and fine.
• 1:06:09
  SPEAKER_00: That animal right there is weak.
• 1:06:11
  SPEAKER_00: It's just a weak genetic, it's a weak genetic critter.
• 1:06:16
  SPEAKER_00: Now, if you go out and you've got 200 cows and 50 of them are sick, then we say, ooh, we got a problem.
• 1:06:24
  SPEAKER_00: We've got a management issue.
• 1:06:26
  SPEAKER_00: And so when you um you know, when you actually look at the number of sicknesses consuming something, how many people, how many people eat, how many people have diabetes who drink Coca-Cola?
• 1:06:52
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, i i i if if you're actually gonna look at this number of people ingested this, this number of people got sick, I would bet you that there are more people that are sick who drink Coca-Cola than are sick who drink raw milk.
• 1:07:10
  SPEAKER_01: Oh yeah.
• 1:07:12
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, if you j if you just look at at those numbers, it'd probably knock your socks off.
• 1:07:18
  SPEAKER_00: And and so here again, you know, I keep going back to the fact that 50 children every year in the United States, 50 children drown in backyard pools.
• 1:07:28
  SPEAKER_00: Now that's tragic.
• 1:07:29
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, it breaks your heart, okay?
• 1:07:31
  SPEAKER_00: But 50 kids drown in backyard pools, that is more people than have even gotten sick from raw milk since records were kept.
• 1:07:45
  SPEAKER_00: But nobody is saying we better fill in all the backyard swimming pools because we can't afford to have a you know a child uh drown in one.
• 1:07:53
  SPEAKER_00: And so we, you know, it's just it's it just is important to keep your perspective um uh commonsensical in these things, or you do go off in some paranoid, oh no, you know, the world is sky is falling, and it as much as we don't we don't want to minimize this tragedy for this family.
• 1:08:14
  SPEAKER_00: For this family, it it was it was terrible.
• 1:08:16
  SPEAKER_00: And I I I get that.
• 1:08:18
  SPEAKER_00: But um, but you have to put it in perspective of of other tragedies, other foods, other consequences, other things that we do that cause worse, you know, similar, if not worse, consequences, actually on a much, on a much greater scale.
• 1:08:37
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, and you know, to that point, I think it's also important that people take responsibility for their choices.
• 1:08:46
  SPEAKER_01: So, for example, and I'm not saying the mom, that mom in particular is not doing that, I'm saying in general.
• 1:08:52
  SPEAKER_01: If somebody heard, okay, like I heard somebody on Facebook saying, Oh, your child's having issues, maybe raw milk will help them.
• 1:09:01
  SPEAKER_01: Okay, so then I would personally do my due diligence.
• 1:09:04
  SPEAKER_01: I would go and find a farm and and ask questions.
• 1:09:09
  SPEAKER_01: Like, I would ask, like, are you doing rotational grazing?
• 1:09:14
  SPEAKER_01: Where show me your tests?
• 1:09:16
  SPEAKER_01: Like, have you tested for you know your uh your CFU?
• 1:09:20
  SPEAKER_01: Have you tested for the somatic cell count?
• 1:09:23
  SPEAKER_01: Like, where's your E.
• 1:09:24
  SPEAKER_01: coli test?
• 1:09:25
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, I would be asking all these questions.
• 1:09:28
  SPEAKER_01: And in fact, I did when I bought raw milk.
• 1:09:31
  SPEAKER_00: At some point, you have to set aside TikTok and Instagram and go be an adult.
• 1:09:39
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:40
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah, because you are responsible for that child.
• 1:09:42
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:09:43
  SPEAKER_01: So don't just trust what somebody else says, you know, just like um if I never met you and I wasn't in this space and I saw that article about the girl, then I saw the American Academy of Pediatrics statement that came out.
• 1:09:58
  SPEAKER_01: Um if I wasn't somebody who trusted but verified, I would be saying, oh my gosh, we should ban all milk.
• 1:10:05
  SPEAKER_01: Like, you know, all raw milk should be banned.
• 1:10:07
  SPEAKER_01: Um but we have to think about these things, like think through them and say, okay, does that person have an invested interest, first of all?
• 1:10:17
  SPEAKER_01: Um and you're gonna find that in studies, and I'm sure you're finding that on the AAP members as well, you know.
• 1:10:24
  SPEAKER_01: And then also I actually go into situations assuming um incompetence.
• 1:10:34
  SPEAKER_01: Right?
• 1:10:35
  SPEAKER_01: I do.
• 1:10:36
  SPEAKER_01: I assume incompetence.
• 1:10:38
  SPEAKER_01: So that makes me that actually inspires me and makes sure that I do my due diligence because I'm not just gonna trust what somebody else says.
• 1:10:48
  SPEAKER_01: Um, that's another reason why we provide the references that I give on this program.
• 1:10:53
  SPEAKER_01: Don't trust me, look at the study yourself, right?
• 1:10:56
  SPEAKER_01: But assume these people are incompetent and look for yourself.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:11:00
  SPEAKER_00: So if you're if you're going to go buy raw milk, assume the farmer is incompetent.
• 1:11:06
  SPEAKER_00: That's not that that's not negative.
• 1:11:08
  SPEAKER_00: That's just self-protective.
• 1:11:10
  SPEAKER_00: And and so so you do, you you ask for a test, you you go, you go look, you smell around, you look around, you know, but but but so many people are just so so hurried, harried, frenzied, and frantic that, oh, I'm gonna, you know, I just read this on social media, uh, give it to me.
• 1:11:28
  SPEAKER_00: Uh, I can't get out of my high heels, you know, I just need it right now, and boom, and and out they go.
• 1:11:33
  SPEAKER_00: And and um, and you know, one of the one of the uh uh repercussions of food freedom is is food uh is responsibility, which then meters into farms.
• 1:11:48
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, this is why Uber works, because you have real-time feedback loops to to um determine who's the good who's the good driver, who's a good passenger.
• 1:11:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if you're a jerk of a passenger, you don't get picked up.
• 1:12:01
  SPEAKER_00: If you're a jerk of a right driver, you don't get passengers.
• 1:12:05
  SPEAKER_00: And um and so we we've become so uh dependent on on uh on government speak, which is which is not apolitical.
• 1:12:18
  SPEAKER_00: All government speak is political.
• 1:12:21
  SPEAKER_00: And uh and and you you can't have you can't have freedom without understanding the responsibilities.
• 1:12:29
  SPEAKER_00: You know, old iconic newscaster Paul Harvey used to say people want to be free.
• 1:12:36
  SPEAKER_00: Yeah.
• 1:12:38
  SPEAKER_00: You can be as free as a as a drifting balloon, you can be free as a as a train without a track.
• 1:12:45
  SPEAKER_00: But freedom, but uh a train without a track is not actually free.
• 1:12:50
  SPEAKER_00: It it takes the track to keep it where it needs to go to actually leverage and exercise his freedom to its full potential of what that freedom is.
• 1:12:57
  SPEAKER_00: It's not we're not we we're not asking to be free to do what we what we can.
• 1:13:03
  SPEAKER_00: We're free to we're we want to be free to do what we ought.
• 1:13:07
  SPEAKER_00: Those are his words.
• 1:13:08
  SPEAKER_00: His words.
• 1:13:11
  SPEAKER_01: Yeah.
• 1:13:12
  SPEAKER_01: Uh that's I mean, so profound.
• 1:13:15
  SPEAKER_01: And so I, you know, I think my takeaway for today is assume assume others are ignorant so that you'll so that you'll do your own homework, right?
• 1:13:26
  SPEAKER_01: Um, and if you are interested in raw milk or even if you're consuming it now, ask those questions to the farm.
• 1:13:34
  SPEAKER_01: Go see the farm and ask the questions.
• 1:13:37
  SPEAKER_01: And you know, if a farm doesn't know the answers, or they seem like they don't want to cooperate and give you the answers, then don't buy from them.
• 1:13:47
  SPEAKER_01: That's all yeah, move on to a different farm, you know?
• 1:13:51
  SPEAKER_00: Yep, yep.
• 1:13:52
  SPEAKER_00: I I I couldn't agree more.
• 1:13:54
  SPEAKER_00: Couldn't agree more.
• 1:13:55
  SPEAKER_00: So, question of the day, question for this podcast as we close is um is do you drink more raw milk?
• 1:14:03
  SPEAKER_00: And is and and have you ever um ever felt worried, concerned, or gotten sick from uh raw milk?
• 1:14:12
  SPEAKER_00: Uh that seems like a fair question, and just to see if we've got any experience.
• 1:14:18
  SPEAKER_00: You know, I've grown up with raw milk.
• 1:14:20
  SPEAKER_00: I mean, I've actually turned the teat sideways and drunk it right out of the cow.
• 1:14:26
  SPEAKER_00: We always had barn cats and they'd come around, you know, and you'd you'd just turn it sideways and squirt those cats and you know, all over their face and their whiskers, and then they'd and then they'd go over in the corner, you know, and spend the next 15 minutes, hopefully in a ray of sunshine, you know, licking and preening and all you know, get all the milk off off themselves.
• 1:14:47
  SPEAKER_00: Uh they but they love to do it, you know.
• 1:14:49
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't they didn't mind that.
• 1:14:50
  SPEAKER_00: They didn't like water sprayed on them, but milk sprayed on a cat, yeah.
• 1:14:54
  SPEAKER_00: They'll they'll they'll take milk sprayed on them any time of day.
• 1:14:56
  SPEAKER_00: So uh do you drink raw milk?
• 1:14:59
  SPEAKER_00: And if you have, have you ever had ever had any any problems?
• 1:15:02
  SPEAKER_00: Or have you been on farms that you'd say, ooh, I'm not sure I'd want to uh want to get the milk from this farm.
• 1:15:08
  SPEAKER_00: Uh as always, Cena, very enlightening.
• 1:15:11
  SPEAKER_00: Thanks for your research.
• 1:15:12
  SPEAKER_00: It's um it's it's wonderful.
• 1:15:14
  SPEAKER_00: I'm I'm feeling uh much more informed about it, and I think our people will feel uh informed and aware that there is absolutely a uh um the other side doesn't sleep.
• 1:15:29
  SPEAKER_00: They they continue to push and push and push, and we have to be vigilant and aware and step up to the plate um as uh as stewards of truth and stewards of uh health.
• 1:15:43
  SPEAKER_00: So thank you for joining us with another um episode of Beyond Labels, and we'll look forward to visiting with you next week.