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One Year Podcasting Celebration and Norman Doors · I Hate Talking

• 0:29
  I Hate Talking: Welcome to episode 56 of I Hate Talking.
• 0:33
  I Hate Talking: Hi everyone.
• 0:35
  I Hate Talking: So there you have it.
• 0:39
  I Hate Talking: We have reached one year of podcasting.
• 0:44
  I Hate Talking: Wow, crazy.
• 0:45
  I Hate Talking: So we'll celebrate with a little bit of champagne.
• 0:49
  I Hate Talking: So we have been podcasting for one year now, I guess over a year, considering that we did a number of episodes in the month of March and April of 2024 in preparation for our release in May of 2024, but now we are here in May of 2025.
• 1:19
  I Hate Talking: Wow, that year went by so quick.
• 1:21
  I Hate Talking: I know everyone always says that, but I did.
• 1:24
  I Hate Talking: Indeed, so we know that there are many faithful listeners out there, so we appreciate your support and your continued listening to this particular podcast.
• 1:34
  I Hate Talking: And if you do like and enjoy this podcast, do share it with others.
• 1:39
  I Hate Talking: You can always send them a particular episode or just share our website in general, and that will give them the directory to all our episodes, or just tell them to find I hate talking on whatever particular podcast platform they use on a regular basis.
• 1:55
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, please.
• 1:56
  I Hate Talking: So we do have a number of exciting announcements before we dive into this particular episode and the word or phrase of the episode and our particular topic.
• 2:07
  I Hate Talking: OK, I don't even know that we have announcements, so I'm excited to hear it.
• 2:11
  I Hate Talking: So in no particular order, all of our episodes now have transcripts.
• 2:17
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, yeah, Adam's been working hard on that, and we've already heard that people really appreciate it.
• 2:23
  I Hate Talking: So thanks, Adam, and we'll keep doing it.
• 2:25
  I Hate Talking: And likewise, we're working on revising and enhancing some of our previous episodes show notes to make them easier to find, more relevant, and that way if you do want to go back and find a previous episode, you can hopefully search it and based on the enhanced show notes, be able to find that.
• 2:44
  I Hate Talking: And that might be it, -- I guess those are our -- announcements.
• 2:49
  I Hate Talking: That's a lot of work for you, but yeah, I think it's worth it and should make it easier for people.
• 2:54
  I Hate Talking: Indeed, it should.
• 2:55
  I Hate Talking: So our word or phrase of this episode is a phrase Norman doors.
• 3:03
  I Hate Talking: Norman Doors.
• 3:06
  I Hate Talking: I've never even heard that before.
• 3:08
  I Hate Talking: So have you ever encountered a door where you are not quite sure if you should push or pull that door to open it?
• 3:16
  I Hate Talking: Oh my gosh, every day of my life, or maybe even the door slides to the left or to the right.
• 3:21
  I Hate Talking: -- Oh -- yeah.
• 3:22
  I Hate Talking: Maybe later we can talk about my black guy I got from a door once.
• 3:27
  I Hate Talking: We might have to because I don't necessarily know if I can recall the exact scenario, but Norman door, that particular phrase, is the description given to doors where the mechanism in which to open it is not clearly or very well understood by the user upon first inspection of the door.
• 3:50
  I Hate Talking: So is it just a term for it, or is there like a specific Norman door?
• 3:54
  I Hate Talking: So, the term is basically and generally applied to any door that is difficult to understand its use.
• 4:03
  I Hate Talking: So this could be a door that has an outward facing handle that you actually have to push to open, where normally you would interpret that handle, meaning that you have to pull it, or it could be a door with no handles at all, which, you know, doesn't look easy to open at all, but you have to push it in some form or fashion.
• 4:22
  I Hate Talking: Or like I said, maybe there's even doors with handles that look like you may have to push or pull, but they are actually sliding doors.
• 4:29
  I Hate Talking: So is it more of a relative term then?
• 4:32
  I Hate Talking: Cause some people, I feel like don't have a problem with doors.
• 4:36
  I Hate Talking: So would it be a universal door that that's a problem too, or is it relative like, it's a Norman door for me?
• 4:43
  I Hate Talking: It is generally, I think now, sort of a relative term that it can apply to any door that is difficult to understand its use or just confusing to use.
• 4:55
  I Hate Talking: And to your point, maybe there are levels of understanding that people have or do not have when it comes to particular doors that maybe there will be a Norman door to someone and a normal door to others.
• 5:10
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 5:11
  I Hate Talking: We have one of our children is really into design fals currently.
• 5:16
  I Hate Talking: There's like YouTubers that do it.
• 5:18
  I Hate Talking: And uh he gets such a kick out of design fails, especially for doors, cause yeah, it'll say like, pull, and it's an obvious push, like, so they have the wrong label on it.
• 5:31
  I Hate Talking: Would a Norman door also be considered, like in these design fails he watches, how um the door won't fully open cause there's an object in the way, or is it specifically how it opens, period.
• 5:44
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, it has more to do with its particular use.
• 5:47
  I Hate Talking: So the push pull example, or there's some examples where there might be a handle that appears to turn but actually doesn't do anything or perhaps does turn, but it only is there for aesthetic rather than actual function.
• 6:04
  I Hate Talking: So it's not necessarily to do with anything that prevents the door from functioning properly, just more to do with understanding how to use it in general.
• 6:14
  I Hate Talking: OK, yeah.
• 6:14
  I Hate Talking: So the source of this particular phrase comes from it being named after a design guru named Don Norman.
• 6:26
  I Hate Talking: So, basically this particular designer, like, it was named after him because he did really bad design fails, or he noticed the design fails.
• 6:36
  I Hate Talking: I guess my question is, is he proud?
• 6:39
  I Hate Talking: But the concepts named after him.
• 6:42
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I'm struggling to find that information because it is certainly named after him.
• 6:48
  I Hate Talking: So, I think he would be perhaps proud in the fact that he was the one to first identify and name this sort of particular experience that people have using certain doors.
• 7:03
  I Hate Talking: So, He wrote a book called The Design of Everyday Things and basically talked about how doors are one example of things that can be frustrating to use if you don't understand or there's no particular visual indicators on how the door is to be used.
• 7:22
  I Hate Talking: So this particular gentleman was an advocate of people oriented design.
• 7:29
  I Hate Talking: So basically talked about doors, even light switches, or just other everyday objects that people use and may find frustrating if there's confusing aspects to their use.
• 7:41
  I Hate Talking: You said he's an advocate, like he appreciates it.
• 7:44
  I Hate Talking: He finds joy in these obscure doors.
• 7:48
  I Hate Talking: No, he's An advocate of people oriented functionality.
• 7:53
  I Hate Talking: So he wants things to be designed in a way that are easy to use and easily understood.
• 7:59
  I Hate Talking: I see.
• 7:59
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 8:00
  I Hate Talking: So then, yeah, he probably would take joy.
• 8:03
  I Hate Talking: Oh no, maybe not.
• 8:05
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, it is an interesting bit of history that this particular gentleman who was the design guru wrote this book and identified this issue within society.
• 8:16
  I Hate Talking: And then frustrating doors later became to be known as Norman Doors because it actually should be really like on Norman Doors or something like that, but that's the title that stuck was Norman Doors even though he was advocating against such things.
• 8:31
  I Hate Talking: Right.
• 8:32
  I Hate Talking: Oh wow, poor guy.
• 8:34
  I Hate Talking: So, that is our phrase of the episode, Norman Door, not one that you may hear too often, but one that you probably do experience from time to time.
• 8:46
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I mean, we can definitely use it in conversations and bring it back.
• 8:50
  I Hate Talking: Poor Norman, if he wants that or not.
• 8:53
  I Hate Talking: Indeed, so now you can put a phrase to your experience when you encounter a door or some other everyday object that is frustrating and confusing to use.
• 9:03
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, you know, have you experienced times where you're somewhere and like everyone around you is telling you like, push it, you know, cause they're used to everyone trying to pull it or something like that, right?
• 9:15
  I Hate Talking: And maybe at a store, the clerk just knows to constantly tell people when they go to that door.
• 9:21
  I Hate Talking: So now we can be like, it's a Norman door, you pull it instead.
• 9:25
  I Hate Talking: Precisely.
• 9:26
  I Hate Talking: There is an interesting anecdote that I heard from a coworker that went to Brazil and experienced this very thing where there was a Norman door and he was unable to tell if he was to push or pull the door in order to open it.
• 9:40
  I Hate Talking: And everyone around him was yelling the Portuguese word for push, which I guess in English sounds like pull, so he continually pulled on the door as people were yelling, pull, pull, but it was actually the Portuguese word for push.
• 9:55
  I Hate Talking: Oh no, that is embarrassing.
• 9:58
  I Hate Talking: Poor guy.
• 9:59
  I Hate Talking: Indeed, so I have not had a chance yet to talk to anyone I know in Europe about what they call a phone application.
• 10:08
  I Hate Talking: So that mystery remains unsolved to this date, but hopefully we'll have an answer soon within the next episode or two.
• 10:16
  I Hate Talking: Oh yeah, that's a call back, right, to the episode about apps.
• 10:19
  I Hate Talking: And whether they call their phone, oh no, we're not gonna get through this again, but yes, that's the callback, right, to the episode about apps.
• 10:28
  I Hate Talking: Apps, yes, phone applications.
• 10:30
  I Hate Talking: So, was the door that gave you a black eye, a Norman door?
• 10:35
  I Hate Talking: I guess, or user air, but I'm not above saying user error.
• 10:43
  I Hate Talking: So you don't remember this?
• 10:45
  I Hate Talking: It seems vaguely familiar, -- but I cannot recall the -- exact.
• 10:49
  I Hate Talking: I do remember the black eye.
• 10:51
  I Hate Talking: I do remember that it was caused by a door, but I don't remember exactly how or why or any particular details about the event.
• 10:59
  I Hate Talking: So you and I went away for a weekend together, and that's very uncommon.
• 11:05
  I Hate Talking: Uh, usually we have our kids in tow.
• 11:08
  I Hate Talking: So it was really exciting to be away, and we were staying at a hotel, and in the middle of the night, I had to get up to use the restroom.
• 11:16
  I Hate Talking: And I thought the restroom door was a sliding door, like a pocket door or something, and it was really dark and I wasn't familiar with the room.
• 11:28
  I Hate Talking: So I was trying to like push it, slide it open.
• 11:31
  I Hate Talking: And it was kind of stuck.
• 11:34
  I Hate Talking: So I yanked it really hard to try to like unstick it.
• 11:37
  I Hate Talking: I thought, well, I didn't know that it was closed and it was uh Uh, out and indoor.
• 11:44
  I Hate Talking: So I yank it to unstick it, I'm thinking, but instead, the door flew at me and hit me straight in the eye.
• 11:52
  I Hate Talking: And like side of the face, and I had a really nice shiner for a long time afterwards.
• 11:58
  I Hate Talking: So I don't know if that's an example of a Norman door.
• 12:01
  I Hate Talking: There are, like you said, a number of other considerations there, just the familiarity of the space as well as the level of light that was present that did not allow you to observe in fine detail that it was not a pocket door and it was actually in fact a swing door.
• 12:20
  I Hate Talking: So probably not necessarily an exact example of a Norman d'or, but certainly was very painful, I suppose.
• 12:28
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, and it just looked really bad for a while.
• 12:32
  I Hate Talking: So it was a conversation starter.
• 12:34
  I Hate Talking: Luckily, I don't have a high sense of pride or high sense of shame, I guess, because I just have to tell people I was trying to open a bathroom door and smack myself in the face.
• 12:46
  I Hate Talking: Yep, it almost sounds it sounds fake.
• 12:50
  I Hate Talking: It doesn't sound like a real story, but it was my story and I just had to own it.
• 12:55
  I Hate Talking: Indeed, so I think Norman doors, I've experienced them a lot of times when they are glass doors where they have some form of handle attached to the glass where that's sort of necessitated by the fact that it is a glass door and can't just have handles placed anywhere for the structural integrity of the door.
• 13:17
  I Hate Talking: So, a lot of times I think that glass doors will be Norman doors because of that very fact.
• 13:24
  I Hate Talking: Could you consider a glass door a Norman door if you don't know it's there?
• 13:29
  I Hate Talking: Have you experienced times where there's glass all around and it's so clear that you just like walk into it?
• 13:37
  I Hate Talking: Well, I certainly think that that would not be a people oriented door if it is causing those type of scenarios.
• 13:46
  I Hate Talking: So maybe not a Norman door in the strictest sense of the word where it's confusing or difficult to use, but certainly not people oriented, but I don't know if I've ever had that experience personally, certainly seeing the YouTube videos and things of that nature where that has happened, but As far as personal experience, I don't think so.
• 14:08
  I Hate Talking: Well, we have another anecdote of that happening to our kids.
• 14:12
  I Hate Talking: We were at an event and one of our kids got hurt, not overly, but he got hurt, and there was a glass wall between us.
• 14:18
  I Hate Talking: And so our other kid came running out to tell us that his brother was hurt, and he didn't know it was a glass door, and he smacked into that and then he got hurt too.
• 14:29
  I Hate Talking: It's kind of funny, but also they're OK and we can laugh because they're OK.
• 14:34
  I Hate Talking: Indeed, so lots of things that we can think about as we think about Norman doors or just Norman objects where we want to not only experience the world in an understanding way, but also if we are in positions to design things that people use that we want to consider these things as well that we can make it people oriented.
• 14:59
  I Hate Talking: So that whatever we are designing, whether that be a door or some sort of other physical object or even a phone app that we are considered of how people will use those things and make it straightforward, easy to understand and intuitive.
• 15:17
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, think about it.
• 15:18
  I Hate Talking: Would Norman be proud of this?
• 15:20
  I Hate Talking: Would he approve?
• 15:21
  I Hate Talking: And if not, don't do it.
• 15:23
  I Hate Talking: Or do it in a way that Norman would approve.
• 15:27
  I Hate Talking: So that is our word or phrase of the episode, Norman Door, and now we will move on perhaps to any other topics that we would like to consider for this episode.
• 15:38
  I Hate Talking: We would like to hear from you, our listeners, any particular thoughts on either this episode or previous episodes.
• 15:48
  I Hate Talking: If you do have a suggestion for a word or phrase of the episode, you can always send us a text on the link in the show notes or send us an email or leave us a comment on any podcast platform that you particularly are using.
• 16:02
  I Hate Talking: And to that end, I guess perhaps what has been your favorite episode to either record or listen to?
• 16:10
  I Hate Talking: You're asking me?
• 16:12
  I Hate Talking: I'm asking you.
• 16:13
  I Hate Talking: You're the one I'm talking to right now.
• 16:15
  I Hate Talking: I certainly the listeners can let us know, but you are the person I'm talking to in this moment.
• 16:20
  I Hate Talking: OK, give me a second.
• 16:21
  I Hate Talking: Let me think.
• 16:22
  I Hate Talking: OK, well, my first thought was the airplane one, and we did it relatively recently with all the aviation errors that went around.
• 16:32
  I Hate Talking: Um, was it also the conspiracy one?
• 16:35
  I Hate Talking: I felt like I learned a lot during that one.
• 16:37
  I Hate Talking: So we did touch on conspiracy theories during the airplane disaster episode.
• 16:44
  I Hate Talking: The main one that we started talking about that was the September 11th episode.
• 16:50
  I Hate Talking: Oh, OK, yeah.
• 16:51
  I Hate Talking: And then the other one that pops in my head that I just enjoy is the very first one I led because you definitely take the reins of this, and I'm just along for the ride.
• 17:02
  I Hate Talking: But one time I let it, and you hated the episode.
• 17:06
  I Hate Talking: But we got a lot of feedback from People I know.
• 17:12
  I Hate Talking: So, I think cause they know my sense of humor, or they know me well, but they were like, hey, I liked that.
• 17:17
  I Hate Talking: And so I think because they know our dynamic, they knew that you were off.
• 17:22
  I Hate Talking: I don't know if other people necessarily noticed or knew.
• 17:25
  I Hate Talking: But they knew that you were off your game that episode.
• 17:30
  I Hate Talking: I forget what it was, but I found joy in that one, post recording because people noticed.
• 17:37
  I Hate Talking: I think that one is called like Chaos or something like that.
• 17:40
  I Hate Talking: Yes, I believe that was episode 12, the chaos episode, and I think even though I perhaps did not enjoy it in the moment, it was a turning point for the podcast in general because I think up to that point, we had been a little bit more structured and had always.
• 17:59
  I Hate Talking: Had a plan or even really a a firm outline in terms of what word or phrase we were going to do, what topics we were going to cover, even down to some of the specific points of those topics.
• 18:12
  I Hate Talking: And that was the first episode that we did not have any of that.
• 18:16
  I Hate Talking: And we've done a number of episodes much more loosely since then, where we know the word and the topic and that's about it.
• 18:24
  I Hate Talking: So I think that has helped the podcast in general at least in our Composition and recording of episodes.
• 18:32
  I Hate Talking: So those are the ones that stick out in my head, and also not trying to be a downer, some of them I've mentioned are.
• 18:39
  I Hate Talking: But also, um, the one where President Trump got shot, that sticks out my head for sure too, because that was just such a unique moment in history.
• 18:50
  I Hate Talking: I'd never experienced that sort of thing.
• 18:53
  I Hate Talking: So that bonus episode rereleased the night it happened.
• 18:57
  I Hate Talking: It's definitely a strong memory for me.
• 18:59
  I Hate Talking: Indeed, so it's interesting to note that some of my highlighted episodes are some of the same ones.
• 19:05
  I Hate Talking: So I was actually thinking of the chaos episode for that very reason that it was sort of a turning point in our podcast journey where Like I said, up to that point, we had a little bit more rigidity about our topics.
• 19:19
  I Hate Talking: And after that, we were, I think, a little bit more unplanned and impromptu with our particular podcast.
• 19:27
  I Hate Talking: So.
• 19:27
  I Hate Talking: I think that actually made things better in the long run.
• 19:30
  I Hate Talking: -- When -- did you start appreciating that episode because you almost didn't air it.
• 19:34
  I Hate Talking: You're like, no, this is crazy.
• 19:36
  I Hate Talking: And I was like, just air it.
• 19:37
  I Hate Talking: We don't have time to record a new one.
• 19:40
  I Hate Talking: And the people don't like it, they don't have to listen.
• 19:43
  I Hate Talking: was my attitude towards it.
• 19:44
  I Hate Talking: And then we got feedback that people liked it.
• 19:47
  I Hate Talking: So when was the turning point for you on liking or tolerating the episode?
• 19:52
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, it was probably many episodes later because I think we actually had planned some things after that episode.
• 20:02
  I Hate Talking: So immediately after that episode we did some of the things on money and money dysmorphia and that mini series that we did, the three part miniseries, people like that, and the decision fatigue and mental load, so that was some other things that we had planned.
• 20:20
  I Hate Talking: So I don't know if it was until the summer of camping episode that I really appreciated the chaos episode because the summer of camping episode was one of those sort of unplanned and just go with the flow type episodes where we didn't know exactly what we're going to talk about, but we just sort of went with the flow and I think made a good episode in that regard as well.
• 20:44
  I Hate Talking: OK.
• 20:45
  I Hate Talking: So the chaos episode, what else sticks in your brain from this past year?
• 20:50
  I Hate Talking: So also the attempted assassination of President Trump.
• 20:55
  I Hate Talking: When we did that episode, the night of, immediately after the day that that event had transpired.
• 21:03
  I Hate Talking: Was it about a year ago?
• 21:04
  I Hate Talking: Um, I feel like it was really soon, right?
• 21:06
  I Hate Talking: Going on a year soon.
• 21:08
  I Hate Talking: No, I don't think it could be a year because I think we were, it was right in the middle of one of our miniseries.
• 21:14
  I Hate Talking: So it was either in the middle of the money miniseries or in the middle of the decision fatigue miniseries.
• 21:21
  I Hate Talking: So that would have been like episode maybe 1516.
• 21:23
  I Hate Talking: Uh, yeah, July, so we still have a few months till that one year anniversary.
• 21:29
  I Hate Talking: Yep.
• 21:29
  I Hate Talking: And then the synaesthesia episode, I think was.
• 21:36
  I Hate Talking: Pretty good one.
• 21:38
  I Hate Talking: we got a lot of positive.
• 21:40
  I Hate Talking: Feedback on that one and that one was actually, I think, recently one of our most downloaded episodes.
• 21:47
  I Hate Talking: That one is interesting.
• 21:49
  I Hate Talking: So those are some of our highlights I suppose in terms of episodes that we've either enjoyed or not enjoyed recording, but some of the ones that stick out in our minds for various reasons or ones that are more popular with our listeners.
• 22:07
  I Hate Talking: So just interesting things to note as we sort of celebrate and recap one year of podcasting.
• 22:14
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, and over this year, is there anything?
• 22:17
  I Hate Talking: That you're really either really proud of or would have done something different.
• 22:23
  I Hate Talking: Well, we're certainly learning as we go.
• 22:26
  I Hate Talking: So, like we mentioned at the very start of the episode, now we have better show notes and transcripts and things of that nature.
• 22:32
  I Hate Talking: I think we've done a pretty good job with just the quality in terms of both sound quality and production quality, and hopefully, in my mind, we have relevant and useful content when it comes to things that we talk about.
• 22:48
  I Hate Talking: So that is part of the reason that we started podcasting in general.
• 22:53
  I Hate Talking: Which I believe that was episode 10 are.
• 22:56
  I Hate Talking: Origin story.
• 22:58
  I Hate Talking: So that is, I think something that I am proud of.
• 23:04
  I Hate Talking: In terms of things to do differently, I don't know if we could have a better schedule on production and editing.
• 23:13
  I Hate Talking: Sometimes we're waiting till the last minute, but perhaps those have been episodes that are some of the best.
• 23:20
  I Hate Talking: I don't know.
• 23:20
  I Hate Talking: I'd have to go back and sort of look and see when we did.
• 23:24
  I Hate Talking: The actual recording and post production edits and publication to see, but there were definitely some times where we were editing.
• 23:32
  I Hate Talking: The night of release into the night to make sure that we dropped an episode on time, right, and neither of us, but especially you.
• 23:42
  I Hate Talking: We're not procrastinators.
• 23:45
  I Hate Talking: So when life is busy and we don't have one in the can ready to go, it can be stressful, and that's not fun.
• 23:51
  I Hate Talking: So that's my takeaways.
• 23:54
  I Hate Talking: What about yourself in terms of either something to do better or something that you're proud of?
• 23:58
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I think I'm proud that we made it a year.
• 24:02
  I Hate Talking: I think a lot of podcasts don't.
• 24:04
  I Hate Talking: And that I still enjoy it.
• 24:07
  I Hate Talking: Like, I'm getting better.
• 24:09
  I Hate Talking: I was not good in the beginning at telling people we had a podcast.
• 24:13
  I Hate Talking: And just cause I remember this thing in high school where people teased me about being the next Oprah, like, you think you're Oprah?
• 24:21
  I Hate Talking: And I didn't, but I guess I talk like it sometimes.
• 24:24
  I Hate Talking: So, I have this like, in my head, I have this nagging thing about like, oh, now podcasts, people are right.
• 24:31
  I Hate Talking: I think I'm Like a low class Oprah.
• 24:35
  I Hate Talking: So, I've had to struggle with that, like, I do this because I enjoy it.
• 24:40
  I Hate Talking: Because I want to be with you and because I wanna do something valuable.
• 24:45
  I Hate Talking: For society, or for, I don't know, anyone who wants to listen.
• 24:50
  I Hate Talking: So, I've had to work with that about like, why I'm doing it and stop those negative thoughts in my head.
• 24:58
  I Hate Talking: Of what was high school, 25 years, 25 years ago, people teasing me about it.
• 25:04
  I Hate Talking: So, if you meet somebody new or you have a new social circle, is this going to be something that you would tell people about or you would still sort of keep in the background until later?
• 25:16
  I Hate Talking: For me, I still would keep it in the background.
• 25:20
  I Hate Talking: I put it in our Christmas card.
• 25:22
  I Hate Talking: We sent out a Christmas card and I almost didn't put it in, but I did.
• 25:27
  I Hate Talking: And mostly because who we send our cards to, we don't send them to everyone.
• 25:31
  I Hate Talking: It's just our close circle, or like, some older people that don't necessarily have, like, social media.
• 25:38
  I Hate Talking: So, I did that and I thought about that for a long while.
• 25:43
  I Hate Talking: Does this go on the Christmas card or not?
• 25:44
  I Hate Talking: But I think I would not tell people.
• 25:49
  I Hate Talking: There's still a fair amount of people that don't know.
• 25:52
  I Hate Talking: That we do this, that I interact with on a very regular basis, but if it came up, I feel like I'd mention it.
• 26:00
  I Hate Talking: So like if they were talking about their favorite podcast or something, or they shared a podcast episode with you or something like that.
• 26:07
  I Hate Talking: I don't even, maybe, like, you know, my favorite podcast is called I Hate Talking, You Should Listen.
• 26:14
  I Hate Talking: No, I wouldn't do that.
• 26:16
  I Hate Talking: Um, I might possibly, it depends on the context of why they're talking about a podcast.
• 26:22
  I Hate Talking: We were somewhere recently and one of our kids told somebody.
• 26:25
  I Hate Talking: And they were like, whoa, really?
• 26:27
  I Hate Talking: And it was another kid and his mom.
• 26:30
  I Hate Talking: And the kid was so impressed.
• 26:32
  I Hate Talking: Like, I was like, oh no, it's not like that, like.
• 26:36
  I Hate Talking: But I didn't want to shut it down too much because our child was so proud of it, that they were announcing it.
• 26:42
  I Hate Talking: And this kid was here, like, obviously impressed.
• 26:46
  I Hate Talking: So, I just kind of laughed it off and I was like, yeah, it's fun.
• 26:50
  I Hate Talking: So I'm not there yet to like pass out business cards.
• 26:54
  I Hate Talking: But maybe I would wear a hat that had it on it, and if someone asked me, I would say.
• 27:01
  I Hate Talking: If they ask what the logo meant, I would tell them.
• 27:04
  I Hate Talking: Is that super -- passive -- aggressive?
• 27:07
  I Hate Talking: That does sound right in line with your passive aggressive nature, so that makes sense.
• 27:12
  I Hate Talking: So maybe that will be an announcement next year or sooner.
• 27:17
  I Hate Talking: Maybe we'll have merch, who knows?
• 27:19
  I Hate Talking: OK, can we talk real quick?
• 27:20
  I Hate Talking: I wanna hear yours if you would tell people.
• 27:22
  I Hate Talking: But can we, I'll put it on Instagram.
• 27:26
  I Hate Talking: I haven't been good about posting on that lately, but I'll put it on there, our cups I made us.
• 27:31
  I Hate Talking: When we decided, maybe I mentioned this earlier, when we decided to do this, and you created the logo.
• 27:39
  I Hate Talking: I was like, oh, I'm gonna make us cups, like coffee cups, we can drink coffee while we record.
• 27:47
  I Hate Talking: And both of our favorite cups, or one of our favorite coffee cups, is like oversized.
• 27:53
  I Hate Talking: So, I ordered their oversized mug size.
• 27:58
  I Hate Talking: Online Not looking at sizing.
• 28:03
  I Hate Talking: And these are ridiculously large, like, they're comical.
• 28:07
  I Hate Talking: Like, mine looks like a soup bowl, and so we don't use them, they just sit as a decoration.
• 28:13
  I Hate Talking: What is true, they are comically oversized, but I do think I would appreciate that over those tiny little cups that are branded where it's like barely holds 6 ounces of coffee or something like that.
• 28:27
  I Hate Talking: Those are not very useful, so at least it's better than that.
• 28:31
  I Hate Talking: So you'd rather drink from a soup bowl and like a smaller than an espresso cup?
• 28:36
  I Hate Talking: Yes.
• 28:36
  I Hate Talking: OK, but for you, do you tell people?
• 28:41
  I Hate Talking: No, I guess not.
• 28:44
  I Hate Talking: It would be more with closer friends or in social circles where there's already some sort of established relationship.
• 28:53
  I Hate Talking: That I would be telling people, now I don't necessarily think I would be as passive aggressive if it came up in normal conversation.
• 29:03
  I Hate Talking: I think that also maybe a little bit of gender roles that are coming up because I think men in general are going to talk more about what they do.
• 29:15
  I Hate Talking: And podcasting is something that I do.
• 29:19
  I Hate Talking: So when it comes to like a job or activities or things that you do for fun.
• 29:26
  I Hate Talking: That may come up more in conversation for men than women because of just sort of that normal conversation that I think starts with a guy asking another guy, what do you do?
• 29:40
  I Hate Talking: Hm, OK, I can see that.
• 29:42
  I Hate Talking: Yeah, I don't think that's a very common.
• 29:45
  I Hate Talking: It's loaded, and we can talk about this another time maybe, but that's a loaded question for a female to ask them what do you do.
• 29:52
  I Hate Talking: especially people my age, so many work, so many are stay at home moms, so many do like part time or homeworks or something like that.
• 30:03
  I Hate Talking: So it can be come from either side.
• 30:06
  I Hate Talking: If you ask a woman, what do you do?
• 30:08
  I Hate Talking: They could think, oh, you don't think I do enough cause I stay home with my kids.
• 30:14
  I Hate Talking: Or on the flip side, sometimes if I ask someone that, they think I'm judging them like, oh, well, I work, so she must not think I'm a good mom or something, which I Don't think that at all.
• 30:28
  I Hate Talking: So it's so loaded for a girl.
• 30:31
  I Hate Talking: Where a guy usually works, some say home, but I think the majority.
• 30:37
  I Hate Talking: Work versus being a stay at home dad.
• 30:40
  I Hate Talking: Precisely, so perhaps a good topic for next time, but I think this is a good spot to end this particular episode.
• 30:52
  I Hate Talking: So like we said at the beginning, if you did enjoy this episode, like and share, subscribe, and tell your friends about this podcast and our celebration of one year and Also, as we said, if you would like to submit any feedback, leave comments, send us a text and email, you can even suggest future words or phrases of the episode or future topics that we might discuss.
• 31:17
  I Hate Talking: So from your friends at IHTalking, until next time, remember, it is only through talking that we begin the journey to understanding.