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What if Dooku Played to Win? · Aggressive Negotiations: A Star Wars Podcast

0:00
Speaker 1: The Force will be with you always.
0:02
Speaker 2: Welcome to the Nee Palty.
0:06
Speaker 1: Hi, this is Nick and Astasu, story editor on Star Wars,
0:10
Speaker 1: The Clone Wars and Star Wars bad Batch, and you
0:14
Speaker 1: are listening to Aggressive Negotiations.
0:19
Speaker 2: Coming to you from South of the Rishi Mas. It's
0:21
Speaker 2: Aggressive Negotiations the Star Wars podcast that is shock full
0:25
Speaker 2: of unique observations, wonderful explorations, and everything in between. I'm
0:31
Speaker 2: one of your hosts, Jedi Master John Mills, and with
0:34
Speaker 2: me is my dear friend, my compatriot, and much revered
0:39
Speaker 2: Jedi historian, Jedi Master Matthew Rushing. Matt how are you
0:43
Speaker 2: and your luxurious hair doing today?
0:46
Speaker 3: Well, John, doing great and doing great. I'm just excited
0:49
Speaker 3: to be here. You know, it's funny because neither of
0:53
Speaker 3: us realize that this month was ten years as we're
0:57
Speaker 3: recording this Aggressive Negotiations, And partly that's just because we
1:01
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1:04
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1:08
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1:10
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1:13
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1:21
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1:24
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1:39
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1:42
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1:44
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1:47
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1:50
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1:52
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2:11
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3:01
Speaker 2: would so, Matt, one of the things that keeps us
3:09
Speaker 2: show going so long, I think is that we are
3:14
Speaker 2: finally tuned into sort of unique topics. And I think
3:19
Speaker 2: one of the unique topics that has sort of like
3:22
Speaker 2: bubbled up to the surface is and I think that
3:28
Speaker 2: hold on. One of the things that keeps us going
3:33
Speaker 2: is the fact that we love to talk about unique things,
3:35
Speaker 2: and we like to visit characters or situations that sometimes
3:39
Speaker 2: get brushed over. And I think that one of the
3:42
Speaker 2: great things is, especially in recent times and then especially
3:45
Speaker 2: during the Clone War series, is where it starts with
3:47
Speaker 2: then with tales of the Jedi and all of those
3:49
Speaker 2: sorts of things, Dooku gets a little more attention, and
3:52
Speaker 2: so for today's show, the thought occurred to me, and
3:57
Speaker 2: I want to pitch it to you is one of
4:00
Speaker 2: the things that we see with all of Sidius's apprentices
4:06
Speaker 2: is whether it's Vader, whether it's Mall, whether it's Douku,
4:10
Speaker 2: they never hit the point where they ascend. They're never
4:13
Speaker 2: able to overthrow the Lord of the dark Side the
4:17
Speaker 2: way they're supposed to. They're all disappointments in a sense.
4:20
Speaker 2: Mall gets chopped in half that you know, he overcomes it,
4:24
Speaker 2: but not completely. And I look forward to Malshadow Lord,
4:28
Speaker 2: where we're gonna find out even more about that. Vader,
4:31
Speaker 2: of course, fails can't ascend. It's because of the spark
4:34
Speaker 2: of good in him. But Douku fails to ascend. And
4:38
Speaker 2: we've seen a couple of, you know, different scenarios with
4:41
Speaker 2: Douku and stuff like that. But I want to ask you,
4:46
Speaker 2: would Douku have been able to win the Clone War
4:50
Speaker 2: if he had played to win instead of simply causing
4:55
Speaker 2: a ruckus in service of Citius. Was Doku capable enough
5:03
Speaker 2: to overthrow the dark Lord of the Sith, with the
5:07
Speaker 2: tools that he had available and had he chosen to,
5:10
Speaker 2: could he have won the galaxy and won the day?
5:15
Speaker 3: You know, I think it's a great question and one
5:18
Speaker 3: of the reasons. You know, as you were talking, I
5:22
Speaker 3: was thinking that if Doku had truly wanted to win,
5:29
Speaker 3: one of the things that he could have done, and
5:31
Speaker 3: the pr game that he could have played, I think
5:34
Speaker 3: would be able to utilize the corruption that was happening
5:41
Speaker 3: in the Republic, to expose the corruption in the same
5:45
Speaker 3: way that you know, everybody hated supposedly hated the politics
5:49
Speaker 3: in episode one, but I mean I think of all
5:55
Speaker 3: of the rampant corruption that's happening in the Senate at
5:58
Speaker 3: that time between uh, you know, the the trade federations
6:03
Speaker 3: and the corporate guilds and all these type of things,
6:06
Speaker 3: the banking clans, all of them having you know, representation
6:11
Speaker 3: in the Senate, and then all the deals that they're
6:13
Speaker 3: making behind the scenes with these different planets. And you know,
6:18
Speaker 3: if if you wanted to win, as Dooku, I think
6:21
Speaker 3: the thing that you do first and foremost is you
6:24
Speaker 3: begin to expose what the Republic has become, right you know,
6:31
Speaker 3: because I think the beauty of that is there really
6:34
Speaker 3: is that moment, and it's a great moment, you know
6:37
Speaker 3: in episode three where padmes like, what if what if
6:39
Speaker 3: we're the very thing that we thought we were fighting,
6:43
Speaker 3: and what if the other side was that is actually
6:45
Speaker 3: the right side. That's the attitude I think that you
6:49
Speaker 3: could have easily fostered throughout the entire galaxy against the
6:52
Speaker 3: Republic and the idea of basically creating a true republic,
6:57
Speaker 3: because you know, we see the fact that they the separatists,
7:01
Speaker 3: have their own Senate. They are basically, at least on
7:07
Speaker 3: the outside, supposedly trying to do correctly what the Republic
7:13
Speaker 3: hasn't been doing. We realize that behind the scenes that's
7:16
Speaker 3: not what's happening, right because everybody's being played. But if
7:20
Speaker 3: Dooku is actually doing this for real, I think that's
7:24
Speaker 3: the angle that you take, because in that way, you
7:27
Speaker 3: probably get so many planets, or at least so many
7:31
Speaker 3: of the populace of planets, turning against their leadership when
7:36
Speaker 3: they realize the amount of corruption that's happening behind the scenes,
7:40
Speaker 3: and so before you know, we even think about the
7:44
Speaker 3: military strategy, I think the real strategy comes down to
7:49
Speaker 3: the pr strategy and the media game, which is, hey,
7:56
Speaker 3: you don't realize that the republic you believe in isn't
8:00
Speaker 3: actually functioning anymore. It's being run by bureaucrats and swindlers.
8:06
Speaker 3: And if you really want that again, well that's what
8:11
Speaker 3: our goal is, is to bring that back to reality.
8:14
Speaker 2: So would you say that Douku as a part of that,
8:19
Speaker 2: instead of being so forceful as to declare war and
8:23
Speaker 2: go to war with everybody, let's set that aside as
8:26
Speaker 2: a tactic. You're saying, first off, there's the charm offensive.
8:29
Speaker 2: We never see Douku go on the charm offensive. He's
8:32
Speaker 2: never truly the suave statesman. He's always a very imposing,
8:39
Speaker 2: unpleasant figure. So he should be more of a suave
8:42
Speaker 2: statesman and bring evidence in hollows and be like, visit
8:46
Speaker 2: the Republic on occasion and be like, hey, look what
8:49
Speaker 2: I found out going on right here, presuming you can
8:53
Speaker 2: get past Sidius, who would of course murder him immediately.
8:56
Speaker 2: But there is second part to that I wonder to
9:01
Speaker 2: throw out there, where did he need to use more
9:09
Speaker 2: of an insurgency sort of move, basically foment civil wars
9:16
Speaker 2: on each planet so that it's not an external force,
9:20
Speaker 2: a separatist force coming in. It's the populations themselves fighting
9:24
Speaker 2: each other, like the Quarn and the Calamari, right, the
9:27
Speaker 2: Moncows and the quirin or something like that. Fighting Every
9:31
Speaker 2: planet should have been like that instead of any external
9:34
Speaker 2: droid force coming in and trying to conquer anything. Instead,
9:38
Speaker 2: it's it's truly the clone wars, where every single planet
9:44
Speaker 2: is a different conflict. So how is the Republic going
9:47
Speaker 2: to handle that because they can't shoot the citizens that
9:51
Speaker 2: the clones fighting the clankers is one thing, but the
9:54
Speaker 2: clones going in and having to shoot citizens who are rebelling,
9:58
Speaker 2: that's a much harder pr battle to win for Palpatine.
10:02
Speaker 3: You know, I think that is kind of a big
10:06
Speaker 3: piece of this, and it is in many ways kind
10:09
Speaker 3: of my thought process that if you really want to
10:13
Speaker 3: win this, I think what you need to do is
10:18
Speaker 3: you need to give the general public populations of planets
10:24
Speaker 3: a look at themselves in the mirror and show them
10:29
Speaker 3: that the thing that they think is actually there, that
10:32
Speaker 3: is functioning, that is real, isn't what's happening. And I
10:37
Speaker 3: think on top of that, one of the things that
10:43
Speaker 3: you know, you could do that from planet to planet
10:45
Speaker 3: But I think the other major aspect of this, right,
10:50
Speaker 3: comes down to Dooku being able to convince the Jedi
10:56
Speaker 3: that what they're propping up and supporting the Republic is
11:02
Speaker 3: a sham as well, And if he could get the
11:08
Speaker 3: Jedi to abdicate it's association with the Republic and then
11:16
Speaker 3: have them basically become their own entity, right, I think
11:22
Speaker 3: that's the other thing that would be a huge play
11:25
Speaker 3: for him and would be really important for him, is
11:27
Speaker 3: to be working that angle as well, because again, one
11:32
Speaker 3: of the things that allows the Clone Wars to happen
11:39
Speaker 3: and for the Jedi to buy into this is that
11:42
Speaker 3: they're never given the opportunity to stop and critically think really, right,
11:47
Speaker 3: They're just always reacting. And so if you do this
11:52
Speaker 3: in a different way, if Dooku approaches this in a
11:57
Speaker 3: different way and it's more of a slow or burn, right,
12:02
Speaker 3: I think that it allows the Jedi to be able
12:08
Speaker 3: to more immediately recognize the truth of the situation.
12:13
Speaker 2: Right.
12:13
Speaker 3: Palpatine throws the Galaxy into chaos with the snap of
12:18
Speaker 3: a finger, and the Jedi never have a moment to
12:22
Speaker 3: truly think about what's happening. And I think that's one
12:25
Speaker 3: of the biggest things that leads to them not realizing.
12:29
Speaker 3: I mean, Yoda does not realize till way too late
12:33
Speaker 3: what's happening. And so again, if Douku kind of slows
12:41
Speaker 3: his role in this and is truly trying to win this,
12:46
Speaker 3: I think that's the other aspect of this that would
12:49
Speaker 3: be a really important thing, because there's no way in
12:52
Speaker 3: the end. I think that the Droid armies and everything
12:56
Speaker 3: could truly beat the Republic with the Jedi on their side.
13:03
Speaker 2: You know. For me, I look at it as with
13:09
Speaker 2: everything that you're saying, there's a component to this where
13:13
Speaker 2: we see what happens when Pong Krell on his own
13:17
Speaker 2: is disillusioned exactly. So I was thinking that, actually, why
13:23
Speaker 2: is there not more of an effort from Dooku behind
13:26
Speaker 2: the scenes to corrupt more Jedi to I think, pairing
13:33
Speaker 2: with what you're talking about, he should be appealing to
13:36
Speaker 2: the Jedi directly. He should be sending transmissions to the
13:39
Speaker 2: Council regularly. He should be talking with everybody regularly under
13:45
Speaker 2: the auspices of negotiations and exposing what you're talking about
13:52
Speaker 2: and saying, look, I want to come back, guys, but
13:54
Speaker 2: here's the problem. Look at this thing, and so the
13:57
Speaker 2: Jedi wind up and they're spending all of their time
14:00
Speaker 2: trying to expose all of these things while they're also
14:03
Speaker 2: trying to be generals and stuff like that. If he
14:05
Speaker 2: simply gets them to abdicate their generalship so that they're
14:09
Speaker 2: no longer involved in the war, then Sidius is fighting
14:13
Speaker 2: on two fronts. He's trying to stop the Jedi from
14:16
Speaker 2: discovering things, and he's trying to have his Clone army
14:20
Speaker 2: fight the war for him instead of you know, mixing
14:24
Speaker 2: it all together. Additionally, separating the Jedi from the Clones
14:28
Speaker 2: makes Order sixty six that much harder to enact. Where
14:33
Speaker 2: it can be enacted, but it's not the big giant
14:37
Speaker 2: instant pogrom that we see in episode three where everybody's
14:41
Speaker 2: basically wiped out in a week or less.
14:44
Speaker 3: Well, I think, you know, one of the things that
14:52
Speaker 3: you know, obviously Dooku isn't trying to win. He is
14:54
Speaker 3: just there to create chaos, you know, so that more
14:58
Speaker 3: CHEDI die. But like you said, you know, if he
15:01
Speaker 3: is trying to win, then I think absolutely that would
15:08
Speaker 3: be the tactic that he would be taking, that he
15:12
Speaker 3: would be trying to win over more Jedi uh and
15:15
Speaker 3: in that sense not corrupt Jedi, but he would basically
15:18
Speaker 3: be trying to save Jedi. Like he's trying to get
15:20
Speaker 3: them to see that that the the thing that they're doing,
15:23
Speaker 3: uh and and that their support of the Republic is
15:27
Speaker 3: actually the thing that's having Jedi abdicate their role of right,
15:33
Speaker 3: of of oneness and and support for the will of
15:36
Speaker 3: the force instead of you know, the will of a bureaucrat.
15:40
Speaker 2: But right. But like, he doesn't need the Jedi to
15:43
Speaker 2: join him. He just needs them to give up on
15:45
Speaker 2: the Republic. He just needs to break their spirit. He
15:48
Speaker 2: doesn't need to to win, They don't need to come
15:50
Speaker 2: over to the separatist side. He just wants them to
15:52
Speaker 2: give up. But I think of it if he manages
15:55
Speaker 2: to get Jedi just to be like, look, I'm still
15:57
Speaker 2: a Jedi, but I'm leaving. I'm not, you know. He
16:00
Speaker 2: basically he causes a mass departure, you know, because he's
16:06
Speaker 2: at the time of episode two. They never say it
16:08
Speaker 2: on screen, but he's one of the Lost twenty, right,
16:12
Speaker 2: and so it's a very rare thing for a Jedi
16:14
Speaker 2: to just step down. I'm saying, like he could start
16:17
Speaker 2: an internal Jedi movement of just Jedi who decided to leave. Sure,
16:22
Speaker 2: though I look, I'm a Force user, but I'm peace,
16:24
Speaker 2: I'm out, I'm done.
16:26
Speaker 3: But I think again, if you're trying to win this,
16:31
Speaker 3: I believe that that Dooku's best option is to want
16:39
Speaker 3: the Jedi to come with him, That he wants Jedi
16:44
Speaker 3: to be a part of this because he realizes that
16:51
Speaker 3: again they're lost and they need to be redeemed right,
16:57
Speaker 3: that the Jedi that he loves of. You know, again,
17:01
Speaker 3: if he's trying to win this, this is all about
17:03
Speaker 3: him trying to recreate the galaxy as it was meant
17:07
Speaker 3: to be.
17:08
Speaker 2: Right. But see, he he is corrupted by the idea,
17:12
Speaker 2: he sees the corruption, he sees the Jedi losing their way. Well,
17:17
Speaker 2: I'll cheat and I'll use Stover's novelization. But Dooku believes
17:22
Speaker 2: that he can create sort of like an alternate version
17:26
Speaker 2: of the Jedi Council. If I recall the text correctly,
17:29
Speaker 2: we'll be rereading it this year, that lovely twentieth anniversary
17:33
Speaker 2: edition that was released. But I seem to recall a
17:36
Speaker 2: part where we get inside Douku's head and he wants
17:39
Speaker 2: to basically repurpose the Jedi. He doesn't want to kill
17:42
Speaker 2: them all. He wants to, like you're saying, win them
17:46
Speaker 2: over to his side. But I would argue that if
17:49
Speaker 2: he's playing to win getting a Jedi to leave, even
17:53
Speaker 2: if they don't come over, I'll get them later. So
17:56
Speaker 2: all he needs is he needs their numbers to leave
17:58
Speaker 2: the Republiicer. He needs them to side, just not to participate,
18:02
Speaker 2: and then he's going to win that way. And I
18:04
Speaker 2: think if he had been really smart and really playing
18:07
Speaker 2: to win, he knows again to what extent does he know,
18:13
Speaker 2: but he knows on at least some level that Palpatine
18:16
Speaker 2: wants his hands on Skywalker's soul because Skywalker is so powerful.
18:23
Speaker 2: If he really wants to win, he's disillusioning Anakin and
18:27
Speaker 2: convincing Anakin to leave and go be a farmer on
18:30
Speaker 2: Tatawein and win over Anakin to take Padme and leave,
18:37
Speaker 2: and that sets the stage I think for the power
18:40
Speaker 2: balance to shift as well. But I think I think
18:42
Speaker 2: it still gets all the way back to Dooku's not
18:47
Speaker 2: in it to win it. He's in it just to
18:49
Speaker 2: do his master's bidding. And I think that's you know,
18:53
Speaker 2: that's a mirror of Vader. Like we see what Vader
18:57
Speaker 2: is going to become physically mirrored and grievous, we see
18:59
Speaker 2: what Vader's going to become spiritually in Douku. And I
19:03
Speaker 2: think that's why Duku and Vader are, you know, that
19:06
Speaker 2: spiritual pair is neither one of them is really trying
19:10
Speaker 2: to ascend. They like they're they're not good sith, they're
19:15
Speaker 2: not the right sith. Mal may fail, but he's always
19:20
Speaker 2: trying to get to the top at least, so he
19:23
Speaker 2: might not win, but he's got the right idea of
19:27
Speaker 2: getting to the top, of climbing up there. So I
19:30
Speaker 2: think the fundamental failing is no matter what we pitch here,
19:34
Speaker 2: Douku is just not committed to actually ascending, to actually
19:41
Speaker 2: winning the fight. Yeah, at least that's you know, that's
19:45
Speaker 2: the whole thesis behind you know what I'm thinking.
19:48
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think the most interesting part about this again,
19:52
Speaker 3: and I you know, I believe that if Douku was
19:56
Speaker 3: trying to win, one of the most important things for
20:01
Speaker 3: him would actually be again not not only trying to
20:06
Speaker 3: get the Jedi to see the air of their ways
20:08
Speaker 3: and supporting the Republic, but in getting them to see
20:11
Speaker 3: you know that they've gone down the wrong road in
20:13
Speaker 3: many ways. I think the first person that would have
20:16
Speaker 3: joined him would have been Qui gon Jin, and and
20:20
Speaker 3: then I think many more absolutely would have followed because
20:28
Speaker 3: you know, Dooku does realize the extent of the problem.
20:37
Speaker 3: And the question I want to ask you because I
20:40
Speaker 3: think this is a good fun question to be talking
20:43
Speaker 3: about what it would have taken. You know, what would
20:48
Speaker 3: have taken for count to to actually try and win? So,
20:54
Speaker 3: from what we know of his seduction by Palpatine right
20:59
Speaker 3: for this to work, I think he has to be
21:01
Speaker 3: well aware of Palpatine's plan if he's trying to win.
21:07
Speaker 3: At one point, does Dooku make the turn to actually
21:12
Speaker 3: try and win? Like where in the timeline do you
21:15
Speaker 3: see him actually making the turn to try and win?
21:18
Speaker 2: Ooh yeah, so yeah, so it's supposed to be apprentice
21:22
Speaker 2: is doing what the master asks until that fateful moment
21:25
Speaker 2: where they've set the pieces in place to win everything. Ooh.
21:32
Speaker 2: I mean the argument could eat well, man, because you
21:36
Speaker 2: really have to back up because I think that in
21:39
Speaker 2: episode three he's not even thinking in terms of winning. Yeah,
21:43
Speaker 2: he is actually just trying to kill Anakin and Obi Wan,
21:46
Speaker 2: he's not trying to turn them, and of course with
21:52
Speaker 2: that novelization, he had more interest in Obi Wan anyway.
21:56
Speaker 2: But oh, what point during the Clone Wars, Because the
21:59
Speaker 2: thing is, you know, I'm going through, at what point
22:04
Speaker 2: do we see he could have done it? I think
22:11
Speaker 2: aside from detonating Grievous's own ship in the battleover Coruscant,
22:20
Speaker 2: you know, like, yeah, I'm going along with your plans, sir,
22:23
Speaker 2: and you pretend to be captured right here and you're
22:25
Speaker 2: on Grievous's flagship and then quietly leave and then just
22:28
Speaker 2: let this, you know, detonate the ship remotely, you take
22:32
Speaker 2: care of the problem. What point could he have won?
22:39
Speaker 2: I'm going to go and I'm going to say the
22:45
Speaker 2: point he could have turned, should have turned, and would
22:48
Speaker 2: have turned in my brain is when Sidious tells him
22:53
Speaker 2: to kill Ventris, he decides not to and basically say,
23:00
Speaker 2: as what are you going to do about it? Because
23:02
Speaker 2: I think Venturess was very capable. Venturess was in the
23:06
Speaker 2: tank for him. Venturess would have been his key to
23:09
Speaker 2: getting the Night Sisters to help him, and he had
23:15
Speaker 2: I would say at that point in the war a
23:20
Speaker 2: slight advantage over the Republic military. He was actually having
23:25
Speaker 2: a good moment. I think that is the moment where
23:27
Speaker 2: I see Douku taking the bull by the horns if
23:30
Speaker 2: he really wants to win, because I think it's the
23:32
Speaker 2: moment he decides to get rid of Ventress, is where
23:36
Speaker 2: Sidius knows that Douku will never have what it takes.
23:42
Speaker 2: That's the moment that Douku should have said, oh no,
23:46
Speaker 2: I'm taking my trusted assassin and we're coming for you.
23:50
Speaker 2: Where do you think he would have turned?
23:57
Speaker 3: You know, I mean, it is a really tough question,
24:02
Speaker 3: and heys is my own fault. I think I keep
24:08
Speaker 3: coming back to my brain the moment when he's talking
24:12
Speaker 3: to Obi Wan Kenobi in episode two as the moment
24:18
Speaker 3: to which he could if he had made the decision
24:22
Speaker 3: to let Obi Wan down out of the you know,
24:25
Speaker 3: the glowly blue blinders that we've talked about, and to
24:32
Speaker 3: show him I'm not the enemy here. In fact, this
24:39
Speaker 3: this war that I'm starting, I started it as somebody
24:45
Speaker 3: in league with a Sith lord, and I've realized there
24:51
Speaker 3: was some truth to what he said. But I won't
24:55
Speaker 3: serve the Sith. I will only serve the force. And
25:00
Speaker 3: so Therefore, I'm letting you go, and I'm letting you
25:03
Speaker 3: take my message to the the Jedi Council and saying
25:09
Speaker 3: join me. You're on the wrong side, and I'm proving
25:13
Speaker 3: it by letting somebody go that I don't have to
25:15
Speaker 3: let go. I could have turned this into a massacre,
25:19
Speaker 3: and that's not what I'm choosing to do, which I
25:22
Speaker 3: think creates an incredibly interesting moment, because you know, for
25:27
Speaker 3: for Dooku himself, this is an incredibly dangerous moment, right.
25:32
Speaker 3: This is the moment where he turns on his master,
25:36
Speaker 3: exposes his master to the Jedi Council, and then hopes
25:43
Speaker 3: and praise that the chaos that he's sown is something
25:47
Speaker 3: that Palpatine has not seen coming. And in that it's
25:52
Speaker 3: like he's he's taking the gamble, He's taking the risk, right,
25:56
Speaker 3: but I think it's a it's a risk that team
26:00
Speaker 3: because he's so overconfident, just won't see coming.
26:05
Speaker 2: I love this idea. That's very cool, going all the
26:08
Speaker 2: way back to that flashpoint. And I'd say, obviously Douku
26:11
Speaker 2: is evil. Do who's gonna stay evil in my interpretation
26:16
Speaker 2: of your scenario, But I'll layer onto it. Douku goes
26:20
Speaker 2: back with Obi Wan and says, I've turned myself over
26:24
Speaker 2: as prisoner. I'm here before you as a prisoner Jedi Council,
26:29
Speaker 2: and I can tell you all about what's happening on Camino,
26:32
Speaker 2: and I can tell you about Order sixty six, and
26:34
Speaker 2: I can tell you about all of these things before
26:36
Speaker 2: the clones ever get deployed. And this is our chance.
26:39
Speaker 2: Douku becomes a hero. Yep, Douku becomes welcomed. Mace Windho
26:44
Speaker 2: never trusts him, and Mace Windho in this scenario is
26:48
Speaker 2: still the first one to die when Dooku makes his
26:50
Speaker 2: move to ascend as a sith Uh or as the
26:54
Speaker 2: sith Lord as it were. It would be my argument
26:58
Speaker 2: in every scenario with this, even if you know, if
27:02
Speaker 2: we take yours, if we even take mine where it's
27:05
Speaker 2: a Venturus, you know later on in the war where
27:08
Speaker 2: he makes this move, in every scenario, Mace Window was
27:12
Speaker 2: always the first one to die.
27:14
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think what's interesting about this too,
27:16
Speaker 3: in and and your idea of that that you know,
27:19
Speaker 3: the reason that Douku is picked is because he's somebody
27:23
Speaker 3: who is is always going to turn right. He's always
27:27
Speaker 3: going to be the guy, uh, that Palpatine can trust
27:32
Speaker 3: to do what he's going to do, right and which
27:37
Speaker 3: is to want the power. And I think there's something
27:39
Speaker 3: really interesting, you know, is you look at the Dooku
27:47
Speaker 3: Lost Jedi audio drama, right, I think it really sets
27:51
Speaker 3: the stage for why he does this right there is
27:54
Speaker 3: that there is a pride in him that has never
27:59
Speaker 3: been taken in a way through the you know, the
28:02
Speaker 3: trust in you know, the humility that should come from
28:06
Speaker 3: being a Jedi, right, which is the exactly what Yoda
28:10
Speaker 3: says in episode two. Right, all these Jedi more arrogant
28:13
Speaker 3: they are, and Dooku is one of the first, I
28:16
Speaker 3: think to show that arrogance enough to literally walk away
28:21
Speaker 3: from the Council basically like I don't need you.
28:24
Speaker 2: But also I'd say, I'll say that, you know, you
28:30
Speaker 2: know the Jedi Loss that, yes, but I would fall
28:35
Speaker 2: back actually because I love it so much his Arc
28:37
Speaker 2: Entails of the Jedi, which I think, yeah, those three
28:40
Speaker 2: stories are some of the they will forever be like
28:44
Speaker 2: for me, his Arc and Tails of the Jedi is
28:49
Speaker 2: like just an emotional favorite of mine, for all of Animation,
28:54
Speaker 2: all of the Tales of Series, all of Clone Wars,
28:57
Speaker 2: all of rebels, And I think back to that Hammer
29:02
Speaker 2: horror film, Vibe one, the second one where he's with
29:07
Speaker 2: you know, young Qui Gon, and Young Qui Gon is
29:11
Speaker 2: the one who stops him from basically wiping everybody out. Yeah,
29:14
Speaker 2: and I look at that and I'd say that's also
29:18
Speaker 2: a great evidentry thing, you know, for what you're talking
29:22
Speaker 2: about there, Doku was always gonna do this. It was inevitable,
29:28
Speaker 2: but he could have played it smarter and he could
29:30
Speaker 2: have still beaten Sidious.
29:31
Speaker 3: And that's the thing, right, it is he becomes this,
29:34
Speaker 3: he gets twisted because his desire is to become the hero.
29:38
Speaker 3: He does see what's wrong with the republic, right, And
29:43
Speaker 3: the way that Palpatine is able to twist that is
29:45
Speaker 3: to say, what you actually need is the dark side.
29:49
Speaker 3: What you actually need is sith piece, right, which seems
29:54
Speaker 3: like an oxymoron, but you know, I think that's again
29:58
Speaker 3: like us talking about the store worries, that that really
30:02
Speaker 3: helped galvanize who this character is going to become. Those
30:05
Speaker 3: are the ones, and you know, I think that's what
30:08
Speaker 3: makes this question about what if he was doing this
30:11
Speaker 3: for real, Dooku would have had to have been a
30:15
Speaker 3: person who had less humility, that had more humility and
30:22
Speaker 3: less pride, who actually did care about the galaxy more
30:28
Speaker 3: than being the hero.
30:31
Speaker 2: Uh. I think the irony being the irony being that
30:35
Speaker 2: the Sith survived in secret for a millennia, a millennium.
30:41
Speaker 2: The Sith survived for secret. The Sith survived in secret
30:47
Speaker 2: for a millennium, specifically because the lords of the Sith
30:52
Speaker 2: were willing and able to do what you're saying, this
30:56
Speaker 2: is the great irony. They were willing to serve the
30:59
Speaker 2: cause even more than themselves, even though they were ultimately
31:03
Speaker 2: super selfish, because each one thought they were going to
31:06
Speaker 2: be the one to win out in the end. So
31:09
Speaker 2: like there's this there's this weird dynamic at play in
31:13
Speaker 2: what keeps the Sith alive is selfishness, but selfishness even
31:22
Speaker 2: in and of itself serving a greater goal. It's the
31:25
Speaker 2: weirdest thing. Like that's that's why I think I keep
31:28
Speaker 2: coming back to the Sith, Why I keep coming back
31:30
Speaker 2: to Dooku, why I keep coming back to Anakin. All
31:33
Speaker 2: that stuff is. It's so it's such a you know,
31:37
Speaker 2: it's double think. They never reconcile these two things that
31:41
Speaker 2: are going on in their brain, and it's it's really wild,
31:44
Speaker 2: well and really bizarre.
31:46
Speaker 3: And I'm glad you said that too, right it. I
31:48
Speaker 3: think the thing that we really truly see in the Sith, right,
31:56
Speaker 3: is actually the very thing that we kind of see
32:00
Speaker 3: in in the world we live, and it's holding two
32:05
Speaker 3: completely incongruous and ideas in our minds that that can't
32:11
Speaker 3: actually go together, and in the end that ends up
32:16
Speaker 3: destroying us. That that that's what's going to happen, you know,
32:19
Speaker 3: because they can't go together, uh, and therefore it creates
32:25
Speaker 3: it ends up creating a a real issue for us
32:29
Speaker 3: as people, because you know, we can't live lives where
32:35
Speaker 3: we spend all of our time living with two equally
32:40
Speaker 3: opposing ideas as if they're true, one is always going
32:45
Speaker 3: to end up eating the other, or it's just going
32:47
Speaker 3: to cause us to go crazy, right, And I think
32:49
Speaker 3: that's that that's just what you know, we see in
32:53
Speaker 3: uh the Sith. You know, can you can you can
32:56
Speaker 3: you conquer the galaxy by hate and fear and have peace? Like, No,
33:01
Speaker 3: that's never going to be possible, right.
33:05
Speaker 2: No, it's never going to be possible. It's even less
33:08
Speaker 2: possible than believing that olives in ice cream should ever
33:14
Speaker 2: be combined in a dish, But I personally know somebody
33:17
Speaker 2: who does that. And the thing is the difficulty is
33:22
Speaker 2: you still have to love even the crazy people that
33:24
Speaker 2: do those sorts of things. But you know what I love, Matt,
33:28
Speaker 2: even more than sitting down and talking with you every
33:30
Speaker 2: week is seeing people bother you online and pursue you,
33:35
Speaker 2: chase you to the ends of the galaxy and try
33:38
Speaker 2: to corrupt you to believe in things like eating pickles
33:43
Speaker 2: from a bag like I witnessed at work today. So
33:47
Speaker 2: I know I'm throwing all of the images at you
33:49
Speaker 2: right now. Where can people find you online so that
33:51
Speaker 2: they can pitch those ideas to you?
33:52
Speaker 3: Well, goodness, you know, after you've completely ruined my appetite.
33:56
Speaker 3: You can find me all over social media under the
33:57
Speaker 3: name Matt rising Zer two. Of course, here on the network,
34:00
Speaker 3: got a show called Outposts. It's completed, talk about every
34:02
Speaker 3: single chapter of the Harry Potter series, one chapter at
34:05
Speaker 3: a time, so it's a great place to go and visit.
34:08
Speaker 3: You can also find me over on the TFM network
34:10
Speaker 3: with a couple of shows, actually a bunch of shows.
34:12
Speaker 3: One is called The six oh two Club, talking about
34:15
Speaker 3: all of the franchises we love outside of Star Trek,
34:18
Speaker 3: and then of course a lot of great Star Trek
34:20
Speaker 3: talk over there with my good friend Chris Jones. We've
34:22
Speaker 3: got a lot of stuff coming at you, so hope
34:24
Speaker 3: everybody will check that out.
34:25
Speaker 1: John.
34:26
Speaker 3: You know, maybe people wanted to throw some other crazy
34:30
Speaker 3: ideas at you star Wars wise that we could talk about.
34:32
Speaker 3: Where would they find you?
34:34
Speaker 2: Well, as song as they don't throw dirty laundry, everything's good.
34:37
Speaker 2: You can find me as Kessel Junkie out there on
34:39
Speaker 2: the wilds of the Internet. And you can also find
34:41
Speaker 2: me when I'm not showing up on the six zero
34:43
Speaker 2: two Club from time to time to harass Matt in
34:46
Speaker 2: other venues, which I enjoy doing. I just like bothering Matt.
34:49
Speaker 2: I can't help true. You can find me right here
34:52
Speaker 2: on the network, co hosting a show called house Lights
34:55
Speaker 2: where we look at the work of different directors and
34:58
Speaker 2: you know, honestly, it's a lot of fun. And if
35:00
Speaker 2: this is your first time hearing me go on about it,
35:02
Speaker 2: then go over and check it out. Darren Moser, Tristan Riddell,
35:07
Speaker 2: all three of us get together. When they agree with me,
35:11
Speaker 2: we're all correct. When they disagree with me. They're wrong,
35:14
Speaker 2: and that's basically how the show works. But Matt, let
35:17
Speaker 2: me tell you something that really works here is that
35:20
Speaker 2: with the cold snap that's happening in the South regions
35:24
Speaker 2: of Coruscant right now, I have to go board up
35:26
Speaker 2: my windows and put on extra heavy Jedi robes. So
35:30
Speaker 2: I think it's time to close these negotiations, John, Negotiations
35:35
Speaker 2: Art closed.
35:43
Speaker 1: Join the Revolution, Join the Nerd Party.