Latest / Crime Stories with Nancy Grace / "BABY-FACE" KILLERS on the run after cold-blooded murders of North Carolina tourist, her lover and college professor!

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"BABY-FACE" KILLERS on the run after cold-blooded murders of North Carolina tourist, her lover and college professor! · Crime Stories with Nancy Grace

• 0:05
  Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. The RCMP are now considering
• 0:12
  Speaker 1: Cam McCloud and Briar Shmagelski as suspects. Nineteen year old
• 0:17
  Speaker 1: Cam McCloud and eighteen year old Briar sh mcgelski were
• 0:20
  Speaker 1: feared to be missing after their camper was discovered torched
• 0:24
  Speaker 1: on the side of a highway in Canada on Thursday,
• 0:27
  Speaker 1: an unidentified burned body nearby. A worried Briar sh mcgelski's
• 0:32
  Speaker 1: father spoke to check TV two days ago. They're just
• 0:35
  Speaker 1: kids on an adventure, like they're good boys. Those two
• 0:38
  Speaker 1: boys are still out there, Go find them. The pair
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  Speaker 1: of disappeared his days after twenty four year old American
• 0:45
  Speaker 1: China Diese and her Australian boyfriend, twenty three year old
• 0:48
  Speaker 1: Lucas Fowler, were brutallyque gunned down on a lonely Canadian
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  Speaker 1: road just three hundred miles away. No longer considered good boys,
• 0:57
  Speaker 1: they're now considered deadly. Consider them dangerous, Do not approach,
• 1:02
  Speaker 1: Take no action, and call immediately. Nine one one. Two
• 1:06
  Speaker 1: kids on an adventure? What who? The hay said that
• 1:12
  Speaker 1: had to be one of their fathers. Two kids, Two
• 1:15
  Speaker 1: kids on an adventure. You know, I just took the
• 1:17
  Speaker 1: twins to scout camp. Now that was an adventure. Would
• 1:20
  Speaker 1: hike back and forth to the mess house. We would
• 1:23
  Speaker 1: do woodcutting, and Lucy got on a horse. It was awesome.
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  Speaker 1: That's an adventure. This so called adventure involves three dead bodies,
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  Speaker 1: including a gorgeous American girl and her fiance, dead on
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  Speaker 1: the side of the road. That is hardly an adventure.
• 1:42
  Speaker 1: I'm Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for
• 1:45
  Speaker 1: being with us right now. A tiny village in the
• 1:50
  Speaker 1: sites the crosshairs of police on lockdown in a man
• 1:53
  Speaker 1: hunt for a serial killer. A group of suspects after
• 1:57
  Speaker 1: they're apparently spotted foraging for food. Did locals unwittingly help them?
• 2:04
  Speaker 1: Joining me an all star lineup? Jason Ocean's renowned defense attorney.
• 2:07
  Speaker 1: Karen Smith, forensics expert, founder of Bare Bones Consulting. Karen
• 2:12
  Speaker 1: Starts psychologists out of Manhattan. You can find her at
• 2:15
  Speaker 1: Karenstart dot com and joining me right now Crime online
• 2:18
  Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter Ellen Kilauren Ellen, I want to
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  Speaker 1: start at the beginning. What happened July fifteenth, The bodies
• 2:27
  Speaker 1: of a young couple, Lucas follower and his girlfriend, China Geese,
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  Speaker 1: who from North Carolina, who were traveling together on a
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  Speaker 1: road trip or found shot to death in a remote
• 2:38
  Speaker 1: area of Highway ninety seven. Four days later, a burned
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  Speaker 1: body is found about a mile away from a burnt
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  Speaker 1: out pickup trucks about three hundred miles away. As a
• 2:53
  Speaker 1: matter of fact, AKA, take a listen to our friend
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  Speaker 1: Matt Gutman at GMA. Is there anything that links these
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  Speaker 1: two separate events, the decent Fowler murders and the death
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  Speaker 1: of this unidentified man, not that we're aware of right now.
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  Speaker 1: They're the link. They're the link. Police believe they first
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  Speaker 1: murdered Dicon Fowler by their van and then three days
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  Speaker 1: later the other man. They were less spotted in this
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  Speaker 1: twenty eleven Toyota rav four. Police releasing this photo of
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  Speaker 1: the pair in Saskatchewan Tuesday. They now tell ABC News
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  Speaker 1: the teams maybe in Manitoba, over two thousand miles away
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  Speaker 1: from the location of the murders overnight. Dis's brother, through
• 3:34
  Speaker 1: his grief, speaking to GMA, calling for justice. None of
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  Speaker 1: this is going to change, not having the most beautiful
• 3:41
  Speaker 1: person in our lives anymore. But I just hope that
• 3:45
  Speaker 1: whoever did this can get what they deserve now. Police
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  Speaker 1: tell us that they don't have any criminal record. These
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  Speaker 1: teams weren't on their radar. They've traveled over two thousand miles,
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  Speaker 1: mostly in rural Canada, but also in national parks, which
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  Speaker 1: is why police are urging to remain vigilant, because these
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  Speaker 1: two are considered armed and dangerous, and because there's this
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  Speaker 1: massive manhunt on. Police tell us they could be just
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  Speaker 1: one tip away from closing in on it. Did I
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  Speaker 1: just hear Alan Colorin that they could be two thousand
• 4:15
  Speaker 1: miles away from the dead bodies. It's truly amazing, Nancy,
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  Speaker 1: how far these two suspects have been able to go
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  Speaker 1: without being apprehended. If yes, it absolutely looks like they
• 4:27
  Speaker 1: have gone two thousand miles away through the help of
• 4:31
  Speaker 1: stolen cards. Well, okay, I'm getting ahead of myself. Tell
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  Speaker 1: me about these two victims. I know one is an
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  Speaker 1: American girl that was on kind of a dream road
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  Speaker 1: trip with her fiance. They're both, of course gorgeous. He's
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  Speaker 1: from I think Australia. They're seeing the world I think,
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  Speaker 1: traveling in a van and suddenly nobody hears from them,
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  Speaker 1: and that's when their bodies are found. What do you
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  Speaker 1: know about them? That's all correct, Nancy, what you said.
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  Speaker 1: Lucas Filer as an Australian native. His father is actually
• 5:02
  Speaker 1: a police officer. Um. They had been together for a
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  Speaker 1: couple of years. They both loved to travel, they loved
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  Speaker 1: each other, and that's what they were doing. The very
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  Speaker 1: last thing that the very last image that we saw
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  Speaker 1: of them was at a gas station not long before
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  Speaker 1: they were murdered. And there and they're in they're in
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  Speaker 1: an embrace. What about the girl. She is from North Carolina,
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  Speaker 1: She's an American. She met her her boyfriend while they
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  Speaker 1: were traveling because that's what they both loved to do,
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  Speaker 1: and she joined him on a road trip in through
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  Speaker 1: through the country of Canada. Ak's referring to China. Dece
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  Speaker 1: just twenty three years old of North Carolina. The boyfriend
• 5:45
  Speaker 1: Lucas Fowler twenty four years old. Dad a hop. How
• 5:49
  Speaker 1: does Leonard Dyke sixty five of Vancouver fit into this scenario? AKA, well,
• 5:54
  Speaker 1: we don't even know yet how he was killed, but
• 5:56
  Speaker 1: we know that he was Leonard Dyke, again, someone who
• 6:00
  Speaker 1: would not have had any enemies. He was a university professor.
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  Speaker 1: He is a botanist, and his body is found four
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  Speaker 1: days after Lucas and China burn. Take a listen to
• 6:13
  Speaker 1: what the father of one of the two, as they
• 6:16
  Speaker 1: are called baby Face suspects, has to say. They hung
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  Speaker 1: on it all the time. Briar never had Cam stay
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  Speaker 1: at his mom's house or or his grandmother's. It was
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  Speaker 1: always a Cam's place, or they had a few other
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  Speaker 1: close friends and and they'd have their campouts and all that.
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  Speaker 1: I don't know much. I just I don't want knows
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  Speaker 1: Cam's family, Okay, So I know they're hurting as much
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  Speaker 1: as I am. I know they're very confused. All I
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  Speaker 1: can say is my son did not have any real guns.
• 6:51
  Speaker 1: My son did not have a vehicle. My son does
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  Speaker 1: not know how to drive. He was very introverted and
• 6:59
  Speaker 1: he is very heavy into video games. When he came
• 7:03
  Speaker 1: to work for me for the summer, I didn't pay
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  Speaker 1: him and I just had a very expensive customer computer
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  Speaker 1: for him, which he was quite content with. You know,
• 7:12
  Speaker 1: he wasn't into the ones where you know, yeah, your
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  Speaker 1: machine gun and go shooting people. He was worrying into
• 7:18
  Speaker 1: strategy where you move your troops here and there. Strategy
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  Speaker 1: has turned awfully real right now with a discovery of
• 7:25
  Speaker 1: three dead bodies, including a twenty three year old North
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  Speaker 1: Carolina girl who was out for the adventure of a lifetime.
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  Speaker 1: Can you imagine her parents probably first of all worried
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  Speaker 1: about her. Then as the weeks passed and she would
• 7:40
  Speaker 1: check in all the time, they would think, oh, would
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  Speaker 1: have grant adventure. Wish I could have done something like
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  Speaker 1: that when I was growing up, but I had to
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  Speaker 1: go straight to work. Blah blah blah. She's dead, She's gone.
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  Speaker 1: And now these two that are called baby faced killers
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  Speaker 1: are on the run of been leading police in a
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  Speaker 1: wild goose chase now for two weeks and apparently are
• 8:01
  Speaker 1: getting away with it. Two suspected serial killers have now
• 8:06
  Speaker 1: been spotted, but still on the run. A tip was
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  Speaker 1: received that the two teens were in the York Landing
• 8:15
  Speaker 1: Manitoba area. There are a lot of conflicting reports, but
• 8:19
  Speaker 1: what we're learning is they were apparently seeing at a
• 8:22
  Speaker 1: community landfill foraging for food. So how did two seemingly
• 8:27
  Speaker 1: innocent boys end up like this Crime Stories with Nancy Grace.
• 8:46
  Speaker 1: This case has taken a dramatic turn and police are
• 8:48
  Speaker 1: now saying that they are casting a wide net They
• 8:51
  Speaker 1: believe the teens are on the run, that they may
• 8:54
  Speaker 1: have changed their appearance, and police have evidence to suggest
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  Speaker 1: they may already be thousands of miles away. If you
• 9:01
  Speaker 1: spot Briar or Cam, consider them dangerous. An intense manhunt
• 9:07
  Speaker 1: is underway for two Canadian teens, Cam McLoud and Briar shmcgilski,
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  Speaker 1: now suspects in three deaths on rural roads in British Columbia, Canada.
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  Speaker 1: The search comes more than a week after the bodies
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  Speaker 1: of North Carolina native China Deese and Australian Lucas Fowler
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  Speaker 1: were found near their van on the side of the road.
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  Speaker 1: The young couple seen here hugging at a gas station
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  Speaker 1: two days before being found or on a road trip.
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  Speaker 1: There was a van bult gown. We just pulled over
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  Speaker 1: re see if they needed help. Curtis Broughton and his
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  Speaker 1: wife Sandra say they met the pair shortly before they died,
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  Speaker 1: leaving the young travelers only after they felt the couple
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  Speaker 1: knew how to repair their broken down van. They were
• 9:47
  Speaker 1: happy and smiling, and they were here on their road trip,
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  Speaker 1: and they just looked like a young couple in love.
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  Speaker 1: The mystery deep in late last week when another body
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  Speaker 1: was found some three hundred miles away, also on a
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  Speaker 1: remote Canadian our friend Dat CBS Janet shamelin the manhunting
• 10:04
  Speaker 1: mystery going on right now, suspects Cam mccloyd, Brush mcgulski.
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  Speaker 1: What we know is a twenty four year old man,
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  Speaker 1: Lucas Fowler, his North Carolina girlfriend China D's just twenty
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  Speaker 1: three and now a potential college professor, all victims of
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  Speaker 1: the two so called baby faced killers. I don't know anything.
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  Speaker 1: Have they even got that nickname to? Jason Oceans joining
• 10:30
  Speaker 1: me right now now on defense attorney, joining me out
• 10:32
  Speaker 1: of New York, New Jersey area. Jason Monikers are attached
• 10:37
  Speaker 1: to killers, and I don't like that because somehow it's
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  Speaker 1: seemingly takes away from the reality. Matthy, I agree with you.
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  Speaker 1: I hate that that you know, sort of connotation of
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  Speaker 1: baby face. It just it does take away from being,
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  Speaker 1: you know, an accused murder, multiple murders, and you know,
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  Speaker 1: leading US, leading authorities on thousands of miles of chase
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  Speaker 1: and keeping people at bay in their own homes. This
• 11:06
  Speaker 1: is rural Canada, you know, greater than the size of
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  Speaker 1: the United States and thirty million people. Most of this
• 11:13
  Speaker 1: land out here in the West is uninhabited. People might
• 11:16
  Speaker 1: not have access to knowing what's going on. Hey, Jason,
• 11:19
  Speaker 1: you know that my Hallmark movies and they're not mine.
• 11:22
  Speaker 1: They're Hallmarks, but The Hiley Dean based on my books.
• 11:27
  Speaker 1: I started writing actually around the time I met you,
• 11:29
  Speaker 1: back in nineteen ninety seven, when I knew nobody in
• 11:33
  Speaker 1: New York. Moved up there to start a show with
• 11:35
  Speaker 1: Johnny Cochrane and he would go out every night to
• 11:37
  Speaker 1: fancy parties. He was the band of the hour. After
• 11:40
  Speaker 1: the Simpson Verdict, I go home to my apartment and
• 11:45
  Speaker 1: at first I couldn't even afford a TV. Did get one, though,
• 11:49
  Speaker 1: and I would write started this book long story short.
• 11:52
  Speaker 1: They are shot up in Vancouver, and it's beautiful, beautiful
• 11:57
  Speaker 1: country up there, but you go long, long stretches where
• 12:03
  Speaker 1: you don't see anybody. Jason, I mean, these two's like
• 12:06
  Speaker 1: looking for a needle in haystack. They're in the Continental Divide.
• 12:09
  Speaker 1: I mean, you're absolutely right. I mean in between, you know,
• 12:13
  Speaker 1: the coast of Vancouver and where they're rumored to be
• 12:17
  Speaker 1: is just nothingness. It's beautiful, but it's just wide open
• 12:23
  Speaker 1: and the amount of law enforcement, the resources, those who know,
• 12:27
  Speaker 1: getting posters up, that type of stuff that we do here,
• 12:30
  Speaker 1: and you know in the states out there, it's escaping them.
• 12:35
  Speaker 1: And that's why they're covering large grounds seemingly of you know,
• 12:40
  Speaker 1: being on the loose. It's very scary. Yeah, you know,
• 12:44
  Speaker 1: I want to go back to Karen Start, psychologists joining
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  Speaker 1: me out of New York. These two have gotten the
• 12:49
  Speaker 1: name I'm talking about the alleged killers Mcgelski and McLoyd.
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  Speaker 1: They're young, that's true, but the name baby faced killer.
• 12:57
  Speaker 1: You know, when the twins got to pick somebody. Of course,
• 13:01
  Speaker 1: they can't just write a book report. That would be wrong,
• 13:03
  Speaker 1: Karen Start. They have to not only write a book report, okay,
• 13:08
  Speaker 1: they then have to excuse me, I have to put
• 13:12
  Speaker 1: together a costume for them. Lucy had to be Cleopatra.
• 13:16
  Speaker 1: You know how hard it is to dress her up
• 13:18
  Speaker 1: like Cleopatra? Oh my stars? Okay, and he chose to
• 13:23
  Speaker 1: be Billy the kid. I'm like, son, why are you
• 13:27
  Speaker 1: picking a killer? Because Mom, he's so this and he's
• 13:31
  Speaker 1: so that. I just looked at him. I could not
• 13:33
  Speaker 1: believe my son picked well anyway, So why do we
• 13:39
  Speaker 1: I hope John Navy doesn't hear this. Why do we
• 13:43
  Speaker 1: glamorize killers? Like what about all those women throwing themselves
• 13:47
  Speaker 1: at that low moron Chris Watts who kills his wife
• 13:52
  Speaker 1: Shenan and his two babies. Charles Manson getting love letters?
• 13:55
  Speaker 1: That Jody Arius the Jezebel from hell. She's getting love
• 14:01
  Speaker 1: letters and marriage offers. I don't get it. Why are
• 14:04
  Speaker 1: they the baby face killers? You know? Think about it.
• 14:08
  Speaker 1: You go on a road trip, Karen Stark, you with me?
• 14:12
  Speaker 1: Because I don't hear a peep out of you. I'm listening, Nancy.
• 14:15
  Speaker 1: I'm right there. I'm right Karen Stark. You and your
• 14:17
  Speaker 1: husband Mark go all over the world. Every time I
• 14:20
  Speaker 1: see Karen Stark, I'm like, what, Steve Well, we went
• 14:23
  Speaker 1: to Rome, and we went to Monica, we went to
• 14:26
  Speaker 1: con I'm like, what all I did was go to work?
• 14:29
  Speaker 1: Tell me about I can lift through you. Think about it.
• 14:33
  Speaker 1: You're at one of your many, many luxurious vacations and
• 14:37
  Speaker 1: you're driving along with Mark, your beloved husband, and bam,
• 14:40
  Speaker 1: these two idiots pop up out of nowhere. They are
• 14:43
  Speaker 1: not baby face killers. Why are we saying that there's
• 14:46
  Speaker 1: nothing baby faced about them? These are these are like
• 14:50
  Speaker 1: three killers, Nancy. These are these are killers who they
• 14:53
  Speaker 1: don't take the time to cool down between their killings,
• 14:57
  Speaker 1: so that just encourages them to go from one to
• 15:00
  Speaker 1: the next, and they encourage each other. Usually in a
• 15:03
  Speaker 1: situation like this, one of them is more dominant and
• 15:07
  Speaker 1: the other one more passive. But they have revenge fantasies.
• 15:12
  Speaker 1: Whatever is going on with them. As the father said,
• 15:15
  Speaker 1: one was very introverted and on social media had a
• 15:19
  Speaker 1: lot of Nazi symbolism. And they are not they be
• 15:25
  Speaker 1: innocent to be admired killers. They are cold blooded killers
• 15:31
  Speaker 1: who are having a really good time out there killing
• 15:35
  Speaker 1: people that they don't know, just to get revenge and
• 15:40
  Speaker 1: excitement out of their systems. Revenge for what they didn't
• 15:43
  Speaker 1: even know. These people, what are you talking about? This
• 15:45
  Speaker 1: revenge against society? They feel this enfranchise against society, my
• 15:52
  Speaker 1: rare end. They have had homes, they have been cared for,
• 15:57
  Speaker 1: they have been given three meals a day, an education.
• 16:01
  Speaker 1: Revenge for what, But that's not the reality in their minds.
• 16:05
  Speaker 1: In their minds, they're disenfranchised. In their mind they have jobs,
• 16:09
  Speaker 1: they lose them, and you notice they're supposedly going out
• 16:13
  Speaker 1: there to look for jobs, so they're not feeling very powerful.
• 16:18
  Speaker 1: They are feeling like they can't keep you know, the offense.
• 16:23
  Speaker 1: Wa wait, wait, wait wait, I want to pick up
• 16:25
  Speaker 1: on something you said. Now, no offense Jason Oceans and
• 16:29
  Speaker 1: here in the stud studio, Elie and John, no offense
• 16:34
  Speaker 1: to men in general. But let me circle back here
• 16:36
  Speaker 1: and start to feel powerful. You know, I never want
• 16:40
  Speaker 1: I'm never at one time in my life and I
• 16:42
  Speaker 1: ever wanted to feel powerful. I just want to work,
• 16:45
  Speaker 1: do a good job, come home to the twins, cook
• 16:48
  Speaker 1: a little red beans and rice. You know, watch a
• 16:50
  Speaker 1: little Sherlock Holmes before we fall asleep. What feel powerful?
• 16:54
  Speaker 1: Who wants to feel powerful? Why is it always men
• 16:57
  Speaker 1: that want to feel powerful? Well, I yes, because it
• 17:01
  Speaker 1: has to do with that whole macho feeling of the
• 17:04
  Speaker 1: power behind the gun and the ability. Okay, wait wait
• 17:08
  Speaker 1: wait wait wait Karen start. Jackie Howard here in the
• 17:12
  Speaker 1: studio has just given me a significant update. Jackie Howard
• 17:18
  Speaker 1: and all her intensive legal research has discovered that these
• 17:22
  Speaker 1: two liked to play war games in the woods. Now.
• 17:25
  Speaker 1: You know, when I was little, say nine or ten,
• 17:28
  Speaker 1: I would build fortside a pin straw and we would
• 17:31
  Speaker 1: throw pine couns and sycamore balls, as wrong as that is.
• 17:35
  Speaker 1: But these two, how old are they? How old are they? Ek?
• 17:41
  Speaker 1: How old are these two? Eighteen and nineteen years old?
• 17:44
  Speaker 1: And they're still playing war games in the woods if
• 17:47
  Speaker 1: we are to believe Jackie Howard. Anyway, what does that say,
• 17:51
  Speaker 1: Karen starting They're still playing war games in the woods,
• 17:54
  Speaker 1: running through the woods with fake guns. And I think
• 17:58
  Speaker 1: they also like to play games online. So they really
• 18:03
  Speaker 1: are excited about the idea of being able to shoot
• 18:06
  Speaker 1: a gun and go through the motions of capturing somebody
• 18:12
  Speaker 1: or binding their target. And even though they're eighteen and
• 18:16
  Speaker 1: nineteen years old, they are still two boys who get
• 18:21
  Speaker 1: a charge out of doing that. Crime Stories with Nancy Grace,
• 18:41
  Speaker 1: A clearer and darker picture is emerging of a murder
• 18:44
  Speaker 1: suspect at the center of a cross country man hunt.
• 18:47
  Speaker 1: These photos of Briers mcgilski, sent to CBC by a
• 18:50
  Speaker 1: fellow online gamer, showed the team dressed in camo with
• 18:54
  Speaker 1: a Nazi symbol on display. Is a much different image
• 18:57
  Speaker 1: than the boy people here new in person. He was
• 19:00
  Speaker 1: a nice kid, very quiet. Lisa Lucas lives a few
• 19:03
  Speaker 1: doors down from Shmagelski's grandmother where he often stayed as
• 19:06
  Speaker 1: a child. Her son, Ryland, became quick friends Wish mcgelski.
• 19:10
  Speaker 1: The two played together for years, but eventually grew apart.
• 19:13
  Speaker 1: Ryland just said he just gave off a weird kind
• 19:16
  Speaker 1: of a vibe. He just stopped a while, just started
• 19:18
  Speaker 1: making people feel uncomfortable. She says, her son became concerned
• 19:21
  Speaker 1: Wishmagelski's love for violent video games. He would mention things
• 19:25
  Speaker 1: about like if this was real, you know, like when
• 19:28
  Speaker 1: they're playing video games, like, could you imagine if this
• 19:30
  Speaker 1: was real? Kind of a thing. So and you get
• 19:33
  Speaker 1: a little too excited about it. I guess you were
• 19:35
  Speaker 1: hearing from our friends at the CBC. That was Tanya Fletcher.
• 19:38
  Speaker 1: Who are these guys and who are these victims? Let's see,
• 19:43
  Speaker 1: I'm trying to even think back at age twenty three,
• 19:45
  Speaker 1: I just got out of law school. I think I'll
• 19:48
  Speaker 1: still a Clark for a judge. Oh still just a
• 19:51
  Speaker 1: little baby. This China Day's just twenty three years old
• 19:54
  Speaker 1: of North Carolina. Have you seen her? She's just absolutely beautiful.
• 19:59
  Speaker 1: And the boyfriend looks like a young Fabio. Do you
• 20:02
  Speaker 1: guys remember him? I think posed for the front of
• 20:06
  Speaker 1: Romance novels with Yeah, yeah, yeah. The one bald person
• 20:10
  Speaker 1: in the studio right now is brushing his hair back. Yeah,
• 20:13
  Speaker 1: fabio with a long, beautiful blonde hair. Al macho and
• 20:16
  Speaker 1: all that handsome. That's what this guy looks like. To
• 20:18
  Speaker 1: makes up a young version. These two had this picture
• 20:22
  Speaker 1: perfect romance going. His dad is a cop, she's a
• 20:26
  Speaker 1: North Carolina beauty. They're going on the trip of a
• 20:29
  Speaker 1: lifetime before they settle down for real jobs, traveling the
• 20:33
  Speaker 1: country across in a van, and suddenly their bodies found
• 20:38
  Speaker 1: dead on the side of the road, just just gun
• 20:42
  Speaker 1: down and left there on the side of the road
• 20:46
  Speaker 1: with cars whizzing by. Who did this? Right now? Cops
• 20:52
  Speaker 1: honing in on a very rural area, we believe, and
• 20:57
  Speaker 1: arrest is imminent. With Kim McLoyd and Brian Schmigelski, what happened?
• 21:03
  Speaker 1: Joining me right now. A forensic expert and I have
• 21:05
  Speaker 1: worked with her many times and she is the consummate expert,
• 21:11
  Speaker 1: also the founder of Beer Bones consulting with me right now,
• 21:14
  Speaker 1: Karen Smith. Karen, first of all, let me just start
• 21:18
  Speaker 1: with an elementary question. Tell me about the primary crime
• 21:23
  Speaker 1: scene where the two bodies, the young North Carolina girl
• 21:26
  Speaker 1: China Decee and her boyfriend twenty four, the CoP's son,
• 21:30
  Speaker 1: are found. Then I'll move to a potential third victim,
• 21:33
  Speaker 1: the college professor Leonard Dyke. Well, the first scene is
• 21:37
  Speaker 1: going to be where their van was found on the
• 21:38
  Speaker 1: side of the road. There were reports that one of
• 21:41
  Speaker 1: the back windows was broken. I don't know if that
• 21:43
  Speaker 1: means blown out by a bullet or I don't know
• 21:45
  Speaker 1: if that means broken because it had been broken before.
• 21:47
  Speaker 1: They're going to be looking at the positions of the bodies.
• 21:50
  Speaker 1: How were they positioned on the side of the road,
• 21:52
  Speaker 1: had they been executed, had this been completed at a distance?
• 21:56
  Speaker 1: Wasn't a drive by. They're going to look at the van,
• 22:00
  Speaker 1: what was wrong with it? How was it broken down?
• 22:03
  Speaker 1: Was this a rural road where there are a lot
• 22:04
  Speaker 1: of people that pass by. They're going to be asking
• 22:07
  Speaker 1: people who may have witnessed anything to come forward. You
• 22:10
  Speaker 1: look at the bullets, You look at the ballistics. Mancy,
• 22:12
  Speaker 1: We've talked about this ad nauseum before. The ballistics are
• 22:15
  Speaker 1: going to tell a story, maybe not the story, but
• 22:18
  Speaker 1: a story. What type of gun was it? Was it
• 22:20
  Speaker 1: a rifle? Was it a handgun? Is there any stippling
• 22:23
  Speaker 1: or burned an unburned gunpowder on the body, showing a
• 22:26
  Speaker 1: close contact or close range gun shot. All of those
• 22:31
  Speaker 1: horendics are going to come forward and tell a story.
• 22:33
  Speaker 1: But it doesn't give us the name and address of
• 22:36
  Speaker 1: a suspect. It just tells us the ballistics and what
• 22:39
  Speaker 1: may have happened at that scene. So they really have
• 22:42
  Speaker 1: their work cut out for them. Tell me how you
• 22:44
  Speaker 1: believe Karen Smith Barebone's consulting that the two bodies of
• 22:49
  Speaker 1: China Decee and Lucas Fowler can be connected to that
• 22:54
  Speaker 1: the college professor Leonard Dyke. Well, at this point, we're
• 22:56
  Speaker 1: looking at ballistics. If Leonard Dyke was shot, and from
• 23:00
  Speaker 1: report says that he was, they're going to look to
• 23:04
  Speaker 1: try and match the bullets from the first scene where
• 23:06
  Speaker 1: the two were gunned down to the Leonard Dike scene
• 23:08
  Speaker 1: where he was apparently gunned down. If they can match
• 23:11
  Speaker 1: those ballistics, we're going to show that it was the
• 23:13
  Speaker 1: same person or the same gun anyway that fired those bullets.
• 23:17
  Speaker 1: So those links are going to be critical in the
• 23:20
  Speaker 1: turning point. It also gives a traveling pattern of the
• 23:23
  Speaker 1: people who may have committed these crimes. Which direction they
• 23:26
  Speaker 1: were going, where then they have been headed And at
• 23:29
  Speaker 1: this point, I'm really just hoping that the Royal Canadian
• 23:33
  Speaker 1: Mountain Police can use all of their resources and find
• 23:36
  Speaker 1: these guys. They need to be office free. Take a
• 23:38
  Speaker 1: listen to our friends, CBS reporter Janet Shamalen. Police say
• 23:42
  Speaker 1: they'd found a truck on fire that belonged to the
• 23:44
  Speaker 1: Canadian teen suspects about a mile from the man's body.
• 23:48
  Speaker 1: We believe that they're likely continuing to travel. These are
• 23:51
  Speaker 1: newly released recent photos of the teen suspects, last seen
• 23:55
  Speaker 1: driving a twenty eleven silver Toyota rav four. Police believe
• 23:59
  Speaker 1: they've left British Columbia and maybe in Manitoba, thousands of
• 24:03
  Speaker 1: miles away. Investigators won't say what evidence connects the teens
• 24:07
  Speaker 1: to their killings. For Lucas Fowler's father, the loss is unimaginable.
• 24:13
  Speaker 1: As a police officer, you work with families all the time,
• 24:17
  Speaker 1: but nothing prepares me, Nothing prepares my family for what
• 24:22
  Speaker 1: we are going through now, a father's heartbreak. And so
• 24:25
  Speaker 1: the families of these teams that they haven't seen them
• 24:27
  Speaker 1: for several days and they believe the teenage were just
• 24:30
  Speaker 1: were out on the road looking for work. Meanwhile, the
• 24:32
  Speaker 1: families of this young couple, the American and that Australian
• 24:36
  Speaker 1: and the father you saw just there asking this question
• 24:38
  Speaker 1: about motive, what could have sparked what seems to be
• 24:41
  Speaker 1: a random murder. Of course, the state never has to
• 24:45
  Speaker 1: prove a motive, isn't that right? Jason Ocean's estate, I,
• 24:49
  Speaker 1: for instance, me trying a case. I don't have to
• 24:51
  Speaker 1: climb into these guy's heads and figure out why did
• 24:54
  Speaker 1: they do it? Why? What were they thinking? What were
• 24:57
  Speaker 1: they tired of playing Minecraft in their mommy's basement? I
• 25:00
  Speaker 1: don't know. Are they tired of running through the woods
• 25:02
  Speaker 1: with an air soft? I don't know, And I don't
• 25:05
  Speaker 1: have to know. I just have to know I've got
• 25:07
  Speaker 1: the right person and the right jurisdiction and the right
• 25:10
  Speaker 1: victims and a general time span. That's what I need
• 25:14
  Speaker 1: to know, and I need to be able to prove
• 25:15
  Speaker 1: it beyond a reasonable doubt. So motive, motive. But I
• 25:21
  Speaker 1: will say, Jason, I am curious. Don't you think juries
• 25:24
  Speaker 1: want to just out of curiosity? No, a motive, they do, Nancy.
• 25:28
  Speaker 1: I mean, then, and as I listened to you speak,
• 25:30
  Speaker 1: once a prosecutor, always a prosecutor, and certainly motive doesn't matter.
• 25:34
  Speaker 1: It's just part of a story. As you say, juries
• 25:37
  Speaker 1: like to hear that these are lay people who want
• 25:39
  Speaker 1: to know. But what happened? How did these you know,
• 25:42
  Speaker 1: eighteen nineteen year olds teenagers quote unquote in a bad way,
• 25:48
  Speaker 1: baby faced killers? How did they get to this point?
• 25:52
  Speaker 1: So you know, part of that is a background, their
• 25:54
  Speaker 1: family background. One of them is comes from a you know,
• 25:59
  Speaker 1: a ruptured family in terms of parents divorced and contentious
• 26:03
  Speaker 1: going on for years. Not that that's any excuse. Well wait, wait, wait, wait,
• 26:07
  Speaker 1: please please start, Please start, Jason, Jason, Jason, Jason. Are
• 26:11
  Speaker 1: you seriously saying because the parents slid up, because the
• 26:14
  Speaker 1: parents notting that's why they went on a murder spree?
• 26:18
  Speaker 1: Because it sounds like you just did, Nancy, I'm not.
• 26:20
  Speaker 1: I'm just saying, but that's a part of your question
• 26:22
  Speaker 1: as to what is moving. Didn't I hear you say
• 26:24
  Speaker 1: ruptured family? Was that not you? That must have been
• 26:27
  Speaker 1: Jackie Howard here in the studio, because I know I
• 26:29
  Speaker 1: heard somebody say I've got a ruptured family. You gotta
• 26:32
  Speaker 1: give me a little bit better than that. The thing
• 26:33
  Speaker 1: you're you're looking promotive. I mean, we're we're all supposing
• 26:37
  Speaker 1: what it might be. But one's uh, you know, one's
• 26:40
  Speaker 1: reclusive and recalcitrens in his life. The other one is uh,
• 26:43
  Speaker 1: you know, uh, got anger issues and more dominant, as
• 26:47
  Speaker 1: Karen Stark said, And here they're off on their adventure,
• 26:51
  Speaker 1: unfortunately with horrible uh and deadly consequences. Crime stories with
• 27:09
  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace. So as his influencers haven't been good, his
• 27:14
  Speaker 1: influencers have been YouTube and video games. They never got
• 27:18
  Speaker 1: in trouble with the law. They never got into fights.
• 27:21
  Speaker 1: You know. They were just hanging out and having a
• 27:23
  Speaker 1: good time. They weren't scrappers, they weren't cursors, you know.
• 27:29
  Speaker 1: They didn't go play mister Man like manche No. They
• 27:31
  Speaker 1: were just everyday regular kids. But both of them have
• 27:36
  Speaker 1: to have a lot of pain inside, both of them.
• 27:39
  Speaker 1: They had told me that the Walmart jobs just weren't
• 27:43
  Speaker 1: cutting it. They were going to go to Alberta and
• 27:45
  Speaker 1: make some proper money. I believe that's what they were
• 27:48
  Speaker 1: going to do. And I was absolutely flabbergasted to learn that.
• 27:51
  Speaker 1: Two days later, and I found this out from the
• 27:53
  Speaker 1: paper that they were up in the Yukon initially, it
• 27:57
  Speaker 1: looks like they were victims as well, right initially, And
• 28:02
  Speaker 1: it's really tough for me to see in the paper
• 28:05
  Speaker 1: today photos of them alive and well in Saskatchewan. So
• 28:10
  Speaker 1: now they're not lost in the woods. You are hearing
• 28:12
  Speaker 1: the father of BRIERSH mcgulski, speaking, Did I just hear
• 28:16
  Speaker 1: him say they're victims as well? I've got three dead
• 28:19
  Speaker 1: bodies I'm trying to connect right now, and apparently they
• 28:23
  Speaker 1: are absolutely connected to at least two of them, apparently
• 28:28
  Speaker 1: on a killing spree everyday, regular kids, they're victims as well.
• 28:33
  Speaker 1: Blaming YouTube and online for influencing them. Hey, there's something
• 28:37
  Speaker 1: more than YouTube and playing games online that set these
• 28:40
  Speaker 1: two off. Again, it doesn't matter what set them off.
• 28:43
  Speaker 1: What matters is apprehending these two. Kim McCloy Briers mcgelski,
• 28:49
  Speaker 1: now believed to have murdered three people. Questions straight out
• 28:53
  Speaker 1: to Alan klarein crimalline dot Com investigative reporter. Could they
• 28:57
  Speaker 1: be getting help from someone they've been on the run
• 29:00
  Speaker 1: two weeks, Well, yes, Nancy, and there's a lot of
• 29:02
  Speaker 1: questions about how they've been able to evade police and
• 29:05
  Speaker 1: what you accurately described as a wild goose chain. So
• 29:07
  Speaker 1: police did think there was a possibility that someone perhaps
• 29:11
  Speaker 1: inadvertently had helped them relocate from Gillham, Manitoba, which is
• 29:16
  Speaker 1: where they were for for several days without any sightings.
• 29:20
  Speaker 1: They have since been spotted about fifty six miles away
• 29:24
  Speaker 1: in a remote area. But just because it's only fifty
• 29:27
  Speaker 1: six miles away doesn't mean it's easy to get you.
• 29:29
  Speaker 1: This is very rough terrain. It would take several hours
• 29:32
  Speaker 1: to drive. So yes, police do suspect that's possible that
• 29:37
  Speaker 1: someone is helping them, either not knowing who they are
• 29:41
  Speaker 1: and what they're what they're why they're the subject of
• 29:43
  Speaker 1: a man hunt, or perhaps, as one force said, they're
• 29:47
  Speaker 1: not friendly to beliefs and maybe the suspects are paid. Stop.
• 29:55
  Speaker 1: They are not kids. There three dead bodies. Okay, just
• 29:58
  Speaker 1: hold on, hold on a k think of China, did
• 30:01
  Speaker 1: right getting cold? You're right, yeah, lying on the side
• 30:04
  Speaker 1: of the road, dead from a series of gunshot wounds,
• 30:08
  Speaker 1: most likely at close range, and laying there till our
• 30:11
  Speaker 1: body gets cold, with cars whizzing by out in the
• 30:13
  Speaker 1: middle of nowhere. Now did I hear you say the
• 30:16
  Speaker 1: word kids? Yes, they are not kids. They're both adults
• 30:19
  Speaker 1: and they have one of them at least has a
• 30:22
  Speaker 1: history of making very violent comments, going back to when
• 30:25
  Speaker 1: he was in the seventh grade. I explain that to me,
• 30:27
  Speaker 1: what are you talking about. A classmate of his, who
• 30:31
  Speaker 1: a female classmate who was who was with him in
• 30:33
  Speaker 1: the seventh grade, said that even all the way back then,
• 30:36
  Speaker 1: he would make comments about killing other students and then
• 30:40
  Speaker 1: killing himself. Which one was that that's um briar Chmagilski.
• 30:45
  Speaker 1: We know a lot more about him than we do
• 30:47
  Speaker 1: about Kama Cloud. Well, what do we know about him?
• 30:49
  Speaker 1: We know that he was very active on video gaming sites.
• 30:53
  Speaker 1: So with the other one, his father had spoken out
• 30:56
  Speaker 1: a lot about how he was purportedly very damaged by
• 31:00
  Speaker 1: divorce that happened when he was only five years old.
• 31:03
  Speaker 1: We know that he had his father thought him an
• 31:07
  Speaker 1: air street an toy gun basically that kind of looks
• 31:11
  Speaker 1: like a real gun, and that he would play in
• 31:13
  Speaker 1: the woods with those. We know that he made comment
• 31:16
  Speaker 1: online on these gaming platforms saying that he was sympathetic
• 31:19
  Speaker 1: to Nazis. We know that he sent a photo to
• 31:22
  Speaker 1: another gamer of Nazi paraphernalia. We know that he brought
• 31:25
  Speaker 1: his father hold on to the second, what is this?
• 31:28
  Speaker 1: To Karen Smith, forensics expert, founder of beer Buds Consulting,
• 31:31
  Speaker 1: what are the air soft rifles? Explaining that basically it's
• 31:34
  Speaker 1: just a lookalike Nancy, it's you use a canister of
• 31:37
  Speaker 1: air to propel a pellet through the barrel rather than
• 31:40
  Speaker 1: a bullet. Listen, this is not a toy. Okay, this
• 31:44
  Speaker 1: can hurt people. It is not something to be taken lightly.
• 31:48
  Speaker 1: And when you have a young man, a young killer
• 31:51
  Speaker 1: that has been trained with this lookalike gun, it takes
• 31:55
  Speaker 1: the you know, ask Karen Stark about this. It takes
• 31:57
  Speaker 1: the reality out of their brain and it makes sixty
• 32:00
  Speaker 1: on something more real, something that they want to do. Wait,
• 32:04
  Speaker 1: there's something I don't understand here. So they have this
• 32:06
  Speaker 1: airsoft rifle which is basically like I guess, a paintball rifle.
• 32:10
  Speaker 1: And hey, those things hurt, by the way, but this
• 32:13
  Speaker 1: isn't They were killed in Canada. Don't they have very
• 32:16
  Speaker 1: strick gun control in Canada. To Karen Smith, they do,
• 32:20
  Speaker 1: but that doesn't prevent straw purchase of Nancy. You know
• 32:22
  Speaker 1: that as well as I do. Well, all I know
• 32:24
  Speaker 1: is every time I go to Canada to tape a
• 32:26
  Speaker 1: hall mart. Maybe the first thing the cab driver says
• 32:28
  Speaker 1: is something about the American government and gun control. That's
• 32:31
  Speaker 1: why I'm curious. But that's neither here nor there. The
• 32:34
  Speaker 1: investigators have described the terrain that they are scouring as
• 32:38
  Speaker 1: extremely rough and at this point, what are the chances
• 32:41
  Speaker 1: the accused killers will be captured alive? Akacially, Nancy, I
• 32:46
  Speaker 1: thought we were all going to wake up to the
• 32:47
  Speaker 1: news this morning that they had been captured because they
• 32:50
  Speaker 1: have been spotted in a remote area. We don't know
• 32:54
  Speaker 1: what kind of tactical equipment they have, but we know
• 32:57
  Speaker 1: that even trained police officers are facing a lot of
• 33:01
  Speaker 1: challenges with this terrain. It's very remote. There's polar bears,
• 33:05
  Speaker 1: there's black bears. It's not an easy area to canvas.
• 33:10
  Speaker 1: So it's really remarkable that these suspects are still out there,
• 33:16
  Speaker 1: and I don't think that they will be for much longer,
• 33:18
  Speaker 1: and I don't think police do either. And one of
• 33:20
  Speaker 1: the suspects fathers at the same thing, Well, you know
• 33:22
  Speaker 1: to Karen Start, psychologist joining me out in Manhattan. You
• 33:25
  Speaker 1: can find out Karen Start dot com. We also know,
• 33:28
  Speaker 1: based on newly released images of the two, they have
• 33:32
  Speaker 1: an obsession with Nazism. Now, what does that tell you
• 33:35
  Speaker 1: about their mindset? Karen start, Well, their mindset is evil.
• 33:39
  Speaker 1: I mean that what they are admiring that the killing
• 33:44
  Speaker 1: machine of the Nazis and the fact that they were
• 33:48
  Speaker 1: looking for a superior race. So as I said, they're
• 33:52
  Speaker 1: disenfranchised for whatever reason. They are really wanting to go
• 33:57
  Speaker 1: out there and have this power of just killing people
• 34:02
  Speaker 1: and being able. And I think they were fueled off
• 34:05
  Speaker 1: of by the fact that they did one killing and
• 34:07
  Speaker 1: then they could go ahead and do another. And they
• 34:11
  Speaker 1: were encouraging each other, which is not unusual, one dominant
• 34:15
  Speaker 1: one less so. But obsessed with this idea of being
• 34:18
  Speaker 1: able to take over, and they're going to admire anything
• 34:22
  Speaker 1: that's evil, that is against society, the benefit of society,
• 34:28
  Speaker 1: and has to do with control the father. Briars mcgilski
• 34:33
  Speaker 1: says this. A normal child doesn't travel across the country
• 34:38
  Speaker 1: killing people. Child in some very serious pain does Mounties.
• 34:45
  Speaker 1: We're going to shoot first and ask questions later. Basically,
• 34:51
  Speaker 1: he's going to be dead today or tomorrow. I knew facts. Pie,
• 35:07
  Speaker 1: Oh so sorry, could I'm gonna boast kill you and
• 35:11
  Speaker 1: my stars. That's just breaking my heart. And yes I
• 35:14
  Speaker 1: know that's the father of one of the alleged killers,
• 35:16
  Speaker 1: Brush mcguel's keeper. He is still a dad and he
• 35:18
  Speaker 1: still loves his son no matter what. What a nightmare
• 35:23
  Speaker 1: we wait as justice and false. Remember, if you see
• 35:27
  Speaker 1: these two, do not approach them. Please call nine one one.
• 35:32
  Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off, goodbye friend,