Latest / The Starfish Storytellers / Season 4, Episode 6: Guiding Leadership to Inspire through Storytelling with Sally Amkoa

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Season 4, Episode 6: Guiding Leadership to Inspire through Storytelling with Sally Amkoa · The Starfish Storytellers

0:00
Welcome to the starfish storytellers the podcast
0:03
that makes a difference one story at a time by
0:05
bringing storytelling to life When I was a kid
0:21
I was sure I was going to be a doctor My mom
0:25
ran a small cyber cafe on the campus of a medical
0:28
school in Kenya. So I grew up surrounded by doctors
0:31
in crisp white coats, stethoscopes slung around
0:35
their necks. And over the years, my mom edited
0:38
and printed their dissertations. And when they
0:41
graduated, she was so proud. To me, being a doctor
0:45
was not just about taking care of people. It
0:48
was the epitome of success. So I worked really
0:52
hard. I woke up at 4 a .m. every day to study
0:55
for my high school entrance exams because I knew
0:58
getting into a good high school would give me
1:00
the best shot at medical school. And it worked.
1:04
I got into a prestigious boarding school and
1:07
my parents were over the moon. But once I got
1:10
there, everything changed. I was homesick and
1:14
the competition was brutal. I started doubting
1:18
myself and little by little I sunk into depression.
1:22
By the time I took my college entrance exams
1:24
four years later, I failed to qualify for medical
1:28
school. My only dream, gone. My sadness was so
1:34
deep and profound that it infected everyone in
1:37
my family and lingered for weeks. I was so ashamed
1:41
of my failure. that I couldn't hear my parents
1:44
when they told me that they were proud of me
1:47
anyway. I didn't have a backup plan. If I wasn't
1:51
going to be a doctor, then what? At 18 years
1:54
old, I had never felt so lost. My mom was so
1:59
worried that she started taking me to walk with
2:01
her every day, afraid that if she left me alone,
2:04
I'd sink too deep into depression. So I'd sit
2:08
quietly in the corner of her tiny office, documenting
2:11
the five stages of grief in my blue journal.
2:14
Then out of nowhere, I got a call from my old
2:17
classmate, Mary. She had found out about a scholarship
2:20
program and thought I should apply. We met for
2:23
lunch in a noisy restaurant in downtown Nairobi,
2:27
and she told me all about the Zawadi Africa Education
2:30
Fund. It was this program that helped young African
2:33
women from disadvantaged backgrounds get scholarships
2:36
to study at top universities abroad. They wanted
2:41
someone ambitious, someone with leadership potential.
2:45
That's so you, Mary emphasized. I was skeptical.
2:49
I mean, this had to be a scam. And even if it
2:52
was real, why would they pick me? Still, I took
2:56
the application forms, then quickly forgot about
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them. A few weeks later, Mary followed up. She
3:03
was so persistent, I figured I'd at least mention
3:06
it to my mom. My mom read the forms and confirmed
3:09
it was real. You lose nothing by applying, she
3:13
told me. And just like that, I had a new goal.
3:17
The application process was intense with interviews,
3:21
SATs, college essays, but somehow I succeeded.
3:26
I got a full scholarship to study at the University
3:28
of Cincinnati in Ohio. On my first day on campus,
3:32
I just stood there taking it all in. A year earlier,
3:36
I had thought that my life was over. I thought
3:40
that failing one exam meant I had no future.
3:44
And yet that very failure had led me here to
3:48
a place where I could study anything I wanted
3:50
and explore careers I had never even considered.
3:54
So I ended up getting a degree in economics,
3:57
then a master's in business analytics. I even
4:01
studied abroad in six different countries. And
4:04
when it was time to apply for jobs, I told my
4:07
career advisor I wanted to do something meaningful.
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She sent me an opening at a healthcare company
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and it all felt like fate. Ten years later, I'm
4:18
still in healthcare, working in analytics, finance
4:21
and strategy. My mission is to help make quality
4:25
healthcare accessible and affordable to everyone.
4:29
The other day, I found my blue journal. As I
4:34
flipped through it, one entry from 2010 stopped
4:38
me in my tracks. This is such an unpredictable
4:42
period in our lives, I had written. When you're
4:45
so afraid of your future that you don't even
4:48
want to think about it. And in that moment, it
4:51
hit me. that people only think at their level
4:54
of exposure. Because my younger self could not
4:58
have imagined how much bigger life would get.
5:02
And honestly, I'm still trying to figure out
5:05
just how big it can be. Hello, my name is Liana
5:21
Henry. Welcome to the Starfish Storytellers.
5:24
I'm the CEO of the Black Dog Group, a MarCom
5:27
and project management firm on the east coast
5:29
of the U .S. in quaint colonial Bedford, Massachusetts.
5:33
I'm your host and passionate about storytelling,
5:36
and I'm actually on a mission to raise up the
5:38
next generation of storytellers. We've named
5:40
ourselves the Starfish Storytellers after the
5:43
Starfish Story. The moral of the Starfish Story
5:45
is based on the power of one. No matter how big
5:48
the challenge, each action we take makes a difference
5:50
and has an impact. One step, one starfish, and
5:53
one story at a time. Every episode, we welcome
5:56
a new storyteller who will share their story
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meant to inspire and connect with you. Then we'll
6:01
break it down and offer tips for any listeners
6:03
who are ready to tell their own stories. So thanks
6:05
for tuning in. Now let's get started. Today's
6:08
episode is Guiding Leaders Through Inspiring
6:11
Storytelling. And with me today is Sally M. Coa.
6:14
When she's not working in finance for a national
6:17
health insurance company, this Kenyan leadership
6:19
storytelling coach has a deep love for African
6:22
storytelling traditions. She's worked closely
6:25
with corporate leaders to refine their storytelling
6:27
skills. She's coached nonprofit teams, even dedicated
6:31
time working with refugee programs in Nashville,
6:35
which actually is one of the largest refugee
6:37
hubs in the U .S. So welcome to the show, Sally.
6:41
We're so happy that you're here. Thank you so
6:43
much, Liana. I'm really excited to have this
6:45
conversation with you. Storytelling has shipped
6:48
so much of my life, so I love any opportunity
6:50
to talk about it. So when we start every episode,
6:54
we ask our storytellers to share a little bit
6:56
about themselves. I know that we just heard your
6:58
story. Is there anything else you'd like to tell
7:00
our listeners about you? I love the connection
7:03
that stories are able to... bring to us. I think
7:08
this is really what feeds my interest in storytelling
7:11
is that stories are able to bypass our logic
7:14
and help us to just really connect at the heart.
7:17
This is really what drives me. I loved your story.
7:21
It was such a story of hope. And opportunity.
7:24
You were presented with opportunity and you ran
7:26
with it. Not everybody would do that. Not everybody
7:29
has that level of drive. So congratulations on
7:32
the journey that you've had. Thank you. We want
7:34
to talk today about storytelling as it relates
7:38
to guiding leaders. It is an art and a science,
7:42
but we know that stories shape cultures, drive
7:44
leadership, and transform the way that we will
7:47
connect with the world. And not everybody realizes
7:49
that. But it's not just about entertainment.
7:52
It's a powerful leadership tool. It is a very
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powerful tool. It influences, it inspires, and
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it creates impact. So for all those leaders out
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there that are listening and watching, whether
8:04
you're in the boardroom, whether you work in
8:06
a nonprofit, whether you're in a technical field,
8:09
how you tell your story will determine how effectively
8:13
you're going to be able to lead. So with your
8:16
insight and expertise today, Sally, I'm hoping
8:18
you're going to help us discuss how storytelling
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is shaping leadership, technical professionals,
8:25
helping them develop some stronger narratives,
8:28
maybe even data storytelling, how to make that
8:30
more compelling. And I know you've been involved
8:34
with some storytelling networks. I know you had
8:36
participated in 10 by 9. And I just want to hear
8:40
how you craft storytelling for leaders. Are you
8:43
ready to get started? Are you ready to jump in?
8:45
Yes, let's do this. All right. So I want to go
8:49
back to the beginning. You said you had grown
8:50
up in Kenya. You were clearly surrounded by very
8:54
rich storytelling traditions. Can you tell us
8:57
about your experience a little bit more? I know
8:59
you told us like a little snippet in your story,
9:02
but how did that shape your passion for storytelling?
9:05
Historically, in African culture, our history
9:08
and our values were passed down generations through
9:12
oral traditions. And when I was a kid, this was
9:16
still happening because my mom would tell me
9:19
vivid folk tales that her grandma had told her
9:22
when she was a child. No stories about all guys
9:25
that eat naughty children. The goal of these
9:28
stories was parents always love telling that
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one. Right. scare you into good behavior. You
9:35
know, my mom, I think in many ways was my biggest
9:37
storytelling influence because she was so theatrical
9:40
in her narration. So I started mimicking her
9:44
style and retelling her stories to my classmates.
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And when I ran out of stories that she told me,
9:50
I started making up my own on the spot and telling
9:53
them in school. I actually have this vivid memory
9:57
being eight years old, I think I was probably
9:59
in second grade, standing in front of my class
10:03
and telling them this story that had them hooked.
10:05
It was so quiet because they're waiting to hear
10:08
what's going to happen next. And it's so interesting
10:11
that that feeling, that sense of connection that
10:14
I felt in that moment came back later in life
10:18
as an adult when I found my way back into storytelling
10:22
and told my very first story at 10 by 9 Nashville.
10:27
I remember that feeling when you're standing
10:28
in front of a room of strangers. You have this
10:32
eye contact with them. You just feel the energy
10:36
coming your way. And I just found it so remarkable
10:38
that it remained constant after so many years.
10:43
I am Latina. Part of the Latin culture is And
10:47
passing down stories is a lot of very strong
10:50
oral traditions. You know, the stories that are
10:52
told especially in the kitchen, you know, with
10:55
all generations of women, you know, and they're
10:57
preparing meals. You know, I know in Cuba when
11:00
people are on the streets and they're playing
11:02
dominoes, the storytelling that happens, you
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know, at the table, at the domino table, you
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know. So I think oral traditions are so important,
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passing down stories. How did you transition
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into corporate storytelling and then leadership
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coaching? That's such an interesting thing that
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happened in my life because it was entirely unexpected.
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So in 2020, I had become very involved in Ten
11:27
by Nine and was helping to lead the organization
11:30
and organize different events. So the founder,
11:34
his name is Michael McCray, who you should also
11:37
look up because he's an amazing storytelling
11:39
coach, but he recommended this course that he
11:43
was going to be taking at Harvard Kennedy School.
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It's an executive education course on public
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narrative, leadership, storytelling, and action.
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For me, I thought it would be interesting just
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to learn the science behind storytelling. As
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an avid storyteller, I knew that some techniques
12:01
just worked. When you did something a certain
12:03
way, you'd get the impact you wanted from the
12:05
audience, and I wanted to understand why. But
12:08
then when I... took the course, it turned out
12:10
to be much more expansive with a focus on storytelling
12:15
as a leadership practice. The course was intended
12:18
for community leaders and activists and other
12:21
people working to mobilize communities towards
12:23
some sort of action. But as someone from the
12:27
business world, I saw how necessary those skills
12:31
were even in corporate America. I started to
12:34
see growth opportunities for leaders, particularly
12:37
when it comes to empathetic leadership. When
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I was done with the course, I took this experience
12:43
back to my job and started to create storytelling
12:46
training programs for my colleagues. I started
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teaching participants how to tap into their own
12:52
personal experiences to find stories that they
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can leverage to inspire others and build trust
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within their teams. When you're talking, I was
13:00
thinking about, you know, I worked for a large
13:02
tech company and the CEO would have these regular
13:06
quarterly updates. They were to obviously let
13:10
us know how the company was doing financially,
13:12
but it was also to connect with us. And I remember
13:15
how personal his updates became during COVID.
13:21
So often, I think on the corporate level, the
13:24
message sometimes can feel sanitized. I know
13:27
being on a marketing team, there was sort of
13:29
conversation among us when we would read some
13:32
of his messages during COVID. You could see what
13:37
his beliefs were. You could see what his feeling
13:39
was. You could see the frustration that he had
13:42
with what was going on. And I always wondered
13:44
how his communications team felt about it. But
13:48
I felt like I actually got a glimpse into this
13:50
person as a person. You know, I think so often
13:53
leaders are people too. They have a job. They
13:56
have a role. They have to be able to convey information
14:00
in a way that is going to obviously help people
14:03
feel safe. But it was really, I felt it was a
14:06
really good thing to be able to see the humanness
14:11
in this person. You know, like you talked about
14:13
that sort of gentle way of telling it, empathetic.
14:18
storytelling. I think we're in a place definitely
14:20
even today where there's such a need for that,
14:23
especially when it comes time to convey information.
14:26
I agree with you. I think you bring up a really
14:28
important idea. And to me, this is the definition
14:32
of leadership. Professor Marshall Gans at Harvard
14:36
Kennedy School, who taught the course I referenced
14:38
earlier, he defines leadership as accepting the
14:42
responsibility to enable others to overcome moments
14:48
of challenge with agency. The only way to do
14:52
that to enable people to make a conscious choice
14:56
to overcome difficulty is to access values that
15:02
will help them see that they are actually capable
15:05
of overcoming the challenge. And how do you do
15:08
that? You have to use stories. You have to, as
15:11
a leader, figure out like, how can I show people
15:15
that I shared their same values as them. Why
15:19
should they follow me? It's the big question.
15:22
Like when you're a leader and leadership has
15:24
to happen when there's some sort of disruption.
15:28
That's when it's important for you to look around
15:30
as a leader and ask yourself, why should anybody
15:33
follow me? What is the story I'm telling them
15:35
as to why I'm the right person? to bet on to
15:38
help you navigate this difficulty. And I think
15:41
the story doesn't always have to be like, I'm
15:43
exactly like you. I think so often having a story
15:47
of courage, even if it had a struggle in there,
15:51
but brings people back to that satisfying end,
15:54
I guess, it really does build trust, doesn't
15:56
it? Yeah. And also you bring up another really
15:59
valuable point that you can have completely different
16:03
life experiences and yet have shared values because
16:07
you learned a certain value from whatever path
16:10
life took you on. That's why as this black woman
16:14
from Kenya, I can stand up at 10 by 9 and address
16:18
an audience that can be, you know, very conservative.
16:22
And yet because everybody has experienced disappointment,
16:28
At some point in their lives, everybody has been
16:32
taken advantage of in some way, and they know
16:34
that the anger that comes with that, you know,
16:37
the feeling that comes with that, those are the
16:39
shared things that people are able to relate
16:41
to, even if they've had completely different
16:45
paths in life. Well, that's the beauty of story,
16:47
right? It's how when I hear a story, the files
16:52
in my head, the antiquated thing would be the
16:54
Rolodex in my head, but the files in my head,
16:57
are searching for the connection. How do I connect?
17:02
How am I connected to what's their story about
17:04
really? How am I connecting to that theme? What's
17:08
happened in my life that I can connect with that
17:10
person? I understand them. I understand what
17:13
they're saying. I've been there. Absolutely.
17:17
Yeah, it's fascinating. It's wonderful. We've
17:21
been talking about why in these moments, reaching
17:25
for story to build trust, What is one of the
17:28
biggest storytelling mistakes that you think
17:30
leaders make? Okay. So this one requires a lot
17:34
of self -awareness for a leader to know, but
17:38
it's having a questionable strategic intent in
17:43
your story. So when you go back to the definition
17:46
of leadership as accepting the responsibility
17:49
to enable others, the wellbeing of the people
17:54
that you are leading. has to be your priority.
17:58
So it doesn't matter how good of a story you
18:00
tell, if at the end of the day, the goal is not
18:05
to empower your people. A good way to think about
18:09
it is leaders who use fear to get people to do
18:14
something instead of hope is a big difference.
18:18
Because one of them is telling you that, you
18:20
know what, I'm the solution. I'm the one who's
18:24
going to save you. No, that's not going to empower.
18:28
It's not going to enable agency in others. But
18:31
if you tell stories that give people hope to
18:34
know that they have what it takes to overcome
18:36
that challenge, there's no silver bullet here.
18:39
So I think those are the things that leaders
18:41
really have to think carefully about. And in
18:44
the corporate world, as you mentioned, it's very
18:46
tricky because sometimes what's good for the
18:49
business is not good for your people. And it
18:52
doesn't matter how hard you try to spin the story.
18:56
It's just not going to stick. Right. Those are
18:58
the things that I think people have to really
19:00
think through as a leader. You just, you have
19:02
to be authentic. You have to decide what your
19:04
values are and if you're going to be consistent
19:07
in your values. And I think it's hard as a leader.
19:11
You walk a fine line. You do have to be able
19:14
to play both sides of the coin. You do have to
19:17
take care of your people, and sometimes you do
19:19
have to move the business forward. Some people
19:21
don't like the word spin, but it becomes it,
19:23
right? And as you're a storytelling coach, right,
19:27
for leaders, it's saying to them, look, you have
19:30
a whole repository of stories to pick from. I
19:33
would imagine you're helping them go through
19:36
that pile of stories that they have and find
19:39
the one that applies in the situation. For example,
19:43
this tech company that I worked for and the CEO
19:45
and the stories that he would tell in his communications
19:47
during COVID. He could have picked any kinds
19:52
of stories to tell, but it was very specific
19:55
stories that he told. And yet sometimes it felt
19:58
like they were just bubbling up inside of him,
20:01
that they weren't as well drafted and neatly
20:04
packaged. They were very authentic. And I think
20:08
that he absolutely made connections. Sometimes
20:10
people didn't like what they read. But I think,
20:12
like you said, it's like, are you going to make
20:14
the decision to speak to your values? That's
20:17
not always easy to do. I really felt like he
20:20
was very clear what he thought. It was very clear
20:22
what he, his values were. But I still think he
20:26
was still being a leader for the company. I love
20:28
what you talked about, what you said about what
20:30
is the motive here? Are you using story in an
20:33
empowering way? Yeah. And this is not to say
20:37
that the leader's job is to make sure everybody
20:40
is happy. Sometimes you're faced with a situation
20:44
where the reality is what it is. So for instance,
20:47
if you have to lay people off, it is what it
20:50
is, right? You can decide what values do your
20:54
people need in that moment to be able to navigate
20:57
that situation in a way that lets them know that,
21:01
you know what, this is such a difficult experience,
21:04
but we're going to be okay. That's when you have
21:07
to be honest because you have to acknowledge
21:10
what the issue is. You just have to be straight.
21:14
You can share stories of instances where you
21:17
yourself have encountered a loss, but it doesn't
21:21
mean that you're trying to equate your pain with
21:23
the pain of, you know, somebody who might have
21:25
kids and doesn't know what they're going to do.
21:28
You're not trying to equate. You're just trying
21:30
to figure out like, what values do I need? to
21:34
help people tap into. Like what story can I tell
21:37
that if somebody hears it, they might think,
21:39
you know what, I think I've experienced that
21:42
before too. And in the past, I was able to overcome
21:45
that difficult situation because I'm a resilient
21:47
person. So it's a difficult situation, but I've
21:51
got this. And Professor Marshall Gans at Harvard
21:55
Kennedy School has a really cool tool called
21:58
the empathetic bridge that starts with acknowledging
22:01
what the challenge is. and then offer your empathy,
22:07
enable choice, and then help people to think
22:10
through the outcome. That's a really great order.
22:13
And I'm glad you're bringing it up. And story
22:15
can help people get to that place. And storytelling
22:19
often can be such a demonstration of empathy.
22:22
Absolutely. I wanted to talk a little bit about
22:26
how to teach people in certain verticals how
22:29
to be able to tell stories. I know you work in
22:32
the healthcare space and you work with leaders
22:34
in the healthcare space. I have worked a lot
22:37
in the tech space and I have found that teams
22:40
struggle to make their data engaging and relatable.
22:45
You know, so often when I have dealt with product
22:47
managers... they're very, very good at laying
22:51
out all of sort of the technical data and the
22:53
technical information and they speak and think
22:55
that way. But I found, you know, having run storytelling
22:58
seminars for this particular group, it was teaching
23:02
them how to tell product stories and not just
23:06
give examples, being able to hold their audience
23:09
and how hold their audience's attention. So when
23:13
you think about professionals in technical fields,
23:16
How would you help them bring their data to life
23:19
through storytelling? Two things. Number one,
23:22
the first thing is always to be an expert at
23:26
your data. Just know your data. Understand what
23:29
it is you're working with. The next step, and
23:32
I love this, I learned this tip actually last
23:35
year when I organized data storytelling series
23:38
at my company, where I just invited all of the
23:41
leaders who had really great reputations for
23:43
being good storytellers. I just invited them
23:46
for an hour call once a month to just talk to
23:50
folks about what is your process. And one of
23:52
them talked about how oftentimes people don't
23:56
know what a story is. A story has to happen when
24:01
there's some sort of disruption from the norm.
24:03
Exactly. No conflict, no story. There's no conflict.
24:07
The results are exactly what was expected. Everything
24:11
is smooth sailing. There's no point spending
24:16
half your presentation just showing people things
24:19
that did not change. You know, showing freely
24:22
pretty charts about things that turned out the
24:24
way that we expected. Strategizing your presentation
24:28
is very important. So maybe spend a minimal amount
24:31
of time just highlighting all of these metrics
24:34
here are perfectly fine. This will be business
24:36
as usual. We don't need to change anything here.
24:40
However, our profits for the past couple of years
24:43
have been growing steadily. And then suddenly
24:45
last quarter we saw a 7 % dip. Okay. That's,
24:51
that's interesting. This is why you use your
24:54
visualizations to tell us, okay, what is the
24:57
context? You've already told us it was increasing
25:00
steadily, then the dip. So what did you do about
25:03
it? What did you explore? You can talk about
25:06
how you connected with the sales representatives
25:09
for that market. and discovered that there's
25:14
a new competitor, for example, who swooped in
25:18
and came in with a really aggressive strategy
25:21
with low prices. That's interesting. So what
25:25
are we going to do about it? So you come up with
25:27
your proposed solutions. We recommend an aggressive
25:31
defensive strategy ASAP to protect our market
25:34
share. That's more interesting than just like
25:37
running through like spending 80 % of your time
25:40
talking about things that weren't that important.
25:43
And instead you can just focus the bulk of your
25:46
time getting into the meat of items that are
25:50
interesting. Yeah. I mean, stories just make
25:53
these types of presentations so much more interesting.
25:56
It's almost like you always hear that thing,
25:58
you know, yeah, that was a meeting that could
26:00
have been an email, right? Yes. Yes, absolutely.
26:04
I was actually thinking about that when I was
26:07
trying to think of an example for this is, yeah,
26:10
something is like, you shouldn't have a meeting.
26:12
You should, people should get comfortable just
26:14
saying, Hey, there's really nothing interesting
26:17
to talk about. Right. But I think even in that
26:20
situation that you gave, it's like, you could
26:22
spend a big part of that meeting talking about
26:24
that dip and you could spend a big part of that
26:27
meeting talking about the strategy to fix it
26:29
and talking about there was a there was a change
26:33
of some sort. Why do we think it happened? Who
26:36
is this competitor? What market share did we
26:39
lose? Talking about who's in that market and
26:42
how not having us as their product or service,
26:47
how are they going to see changes in their own
26:49
bottom lines? And maybe even using a particular
26:52
customer as a subject of the story, it could
26:55
go in so much more interesting places. Absolutely.
26:59
Yeah. So I'm going to shift gears again. So in
27:02
addition to your corporate work, you've financed
27:04
as storytelling coach for nonprofits. And I know
27:08
that you mentioned we had talked about the refugee
27:11
programs as well that you're based out of Nashville,
27:14
right? And there's a very large refugee community
27:18
in Nashville. I think you said it was probably
27:20
the biggest one in the U .S. Can you talk a little
27:23
bit about the work that you've done in these
27:25
spaces? Yes. For me, working with... different
27:29
refugee programs has been one of the most meaningful
27:32
parts of my storytelling journey. When I was
27:34
growing up in Kenya in the early 90s, there was
27:38
rampant war in many of our neighboring countries.
27:41
So I had childhood friends who are refugees from
27:44
Rwanda, from the Democratic Republic of Congo,
27:47
from the Ivory Coast, South Sudan, Eritrea. That
27:50
was the composition of my friend group. And I
27:54
suppose that's why I'm so passionate about supporting
27:56
the refugee community in Nashville. So I work
28:00
with organizations like the Tennessee Immigrant
28:04
and Refugee Rights Coalition, and there's the
28:07
Nashville International Center for Empowerment.
28:09
I partner with them to coach storytellers from
28:13
the refugee community on their personal stories.
28:16
We have a big event, a big annual event that
28:20
happens on Wild Refugee Day. I think this year
28:23
will be the fourth year that we're doing it.
28:26
happens on June 20th where we invite the whole
28:29
community for a night of storytelling. And so
28:32
I just work with the storytellers. I help them
28:34
craft stories that honor their experiences and
28:37
give them agency. Whether the story is for advocacy,
28:40
whether it's for community building, personal
28:43
healing, or storytelling that gives them a voice,
28:47
I work with them to make sure that we get to
28:50
see what the world looks like through their eyes.
28:53
That's so powerful. On the podcast, I've had
28:56
a number of nonprofits on the importance of being
29:00
able to tell the stories of the people that they
29:02
serve is huge for fundraising purposes, being
29:06
able to advance programs as well. And I would
29:09
imagine by helping people be able to tell their
29:11
personal stories, I think it must really demonstrate
29:15
their courage. It must give them a sense of hope.
29:18
It must be so empowering for them. It's really
29:21
fascinating to see the process, you know, when
29:25
I first meet this group of folks who some of
29:28
them have never, you know, told a story to a
29:30
live audience, and also think about how difficult
29:36
the experiences they're sharing can be. But just
29:40
see the amount of dedication and courage that
29:44
it takes for them to go into those difficult
29:47
places, and then also help them understand that
29:50
There's a lot of hope just in the fact that they
29:54
are here. The fact that they are able to sign
29:58
up and say, you know what, I'm willing to share
30:00
my story. It's such a powerful thing because
30:04
the audience walks out of the event feeling like
30:09
as bad as the world is. There are people who
30:14
have overcome so much and there are people who
30:18
are showing up to support them. So it feeds the
30:23
community in such a powerful way so that when
30:26
you walked into the event just thinking, I'm
30:28
going to listen to some stories. And then you
30:31
walk out realizing, I think I also have something
30:35
that I could give to the world. You know, when
30:37
I hear about the journeys that all these folks
30:38
have been through, I think in my small way, there's
30:42
something that I could do that could add value
30:44
to my community. Gosh, just sounds like such
30:47
a hopeful. event you know sort of in the face
30:50
of adversity and we need hope today. We absolutely
30:54
do and also you know one of the reasons this
30:56
is really important to me is to help the people
30:59
in our community to understand or to even know
31:03
that we have this community in Nashville because
31:07
they experience lots of systemic issues that
31:11
make it very difficult to rebuild their lives.
31:16
So an example is a couple of years ago, one of
31:19
the storytellers was a refugee in her sixties
31:24
and she was from Ukraine. She was retired, you
31:27
know, a retired teacher. She had to move to the
31:30
U S in her sixties with her 80 plus year old
31:34
mother and start afresh. So imagine what that
31:39
would be like. For me, that hit so hard because
31:42
my mom is in her sixties. My grandma is in her
31:47
eighties and I was thinking, oh my gosh, if my
31:50
parents, if she had to start over somewhere,
31:54
a foreign where she didn't know anybody, where
31:56
she's just starting to learn the language, how
31:58
would I want people to show up for her? Those
32:01
are the types of things that having events like
32:04
these help people to start thinking through.
32:06
Very powerful. very powerful. You know, it just
32:10
speaks to the power of story to kind of unify
32:12
the world in a time when we really do need to
32:16
find unity. This kind of an event where people
32:19
are telling stories, it just brings us all back
32:22
to, you know, we're all human. And like you said,
32:25
how would I want someone else treated? Yeah,
32:28
I think it's also helpful to find the tangible
32:32
things that you can do. A big element of hope
32:35
is feeling like there's something that you could
32:38
do. I hope anybody listening to this will realize
32:42
that it's so important to find your sources of
32:45
hope. Sometimes it's getting plugged into that
32:49
organization in your community that is working
32:51
on a cause that's close to your heart. Even when
32:54
it feels like the world is burning down, find
32:57
that place where when you meet up with all of
33:00
the other people who are showing up, even though
33:02
they don't need to be there, it lets you know
33:05
that there's good in the world. Because you're
33:08
doing something like you can see it, you can
33:10
feel it. Find those places where you can actually
33:13
contribute your gifts, your time, your resources.
33:16
And I'm really glad to hear that you're one of
33:18
them. So before we wrap up, I didn't want to
33:20
end without talking a little bit about your experience
33:23
with 10 by 9. If you could talk a little bit
33:26
about... I know as a storyteller, I am always
33:29
looking for storytelling networks to be a part
33:31
of. I think as a storyteller and as storytellers,
33:35
we really do need spaces where we can tell stories
33:38
and practice becoming better at the craft. becoming
33:42
a really good listener, because half of the storytelling
33:45
equation is hearing and being fully present.
33:49
I'm currently running some storytelling seminars
33:52
for a particular community. And the whole goal
33:55
is to build community, having to model and teach
33:59
folks both how to write your story, but also
34:02
how to learn to be able to listen, actively listen,
34:07
be able to provide supportive feedback. to just
34:11
truly, really hear, because there's something
34:13
about being heard that's so validating. You got
34:16
involved with 10 by 9. I think you said it was
34:18
out of, it's in person, I think, so it's probably
34:21
near what you're out of. Can you tell us more
34:23
about how you got involved with that and how
34:26
it's been valuable for you? Yes. When I moved
34:29
to Nashville, this was after graduate school.
34:32
So I moved from Cincinnati to Nashville. I barely
34:35
knew anybody. in the city. And so I was very
34:39
lonely. And if you can remember, the last time
34:42
I felt connection was as a kid telling stories.
34:46
So that's really what led me to one day just
34:49
Google storytelling events near me. Ten by Nine
34:52
Nashville storytelling came up. So it's a live
34:57
community storytelling event that's completely
34:59
free. It happens every month. And we have nine
35:03
people who get 10 minutes to tell a true story
35:06
from their life based on a theme. There are no
35:10
filters, no judgment, just raw, authentic human
35:14
experiences. It makes the entire event so powerful
35:18
because we hear each other's stories, we see
35:21
ourselves in them, and it builds empathy, connection,
35:25
it builds understanding. I love this saying that
35:29
goes, the shortest distance between two people
35:32
is a story. I absolutely believe that. I might
35:36
be biased because I'm a storyteller, but I'm
35:39
a huge believer. You have the wisdom because
35:42
you're a storyteller. I don't even think it's
35:44
biased. I think it's wisdom. Actually, before
35:47
we wrap up, I wanted to make sure that I went
35:50
back to the empathetic bridge. I mentioned that
35:54
in empathetic leadership, a helpful tool to use
35:59
is the empathetic bridge, which was created by
36:02
Professor Marshall Gans at Harvard. The bridge
36:05
has four steps. Acknowledge the challenge, express
36:11
empathy, narrate hope, and then enable choice.
36:15
In the event that, say, you're dealing with having
36:18
to let people know that layoffs are coming, you
36:23
have to just follow those steps. It's difficult
36:27
and That's what leadership is. Leadership is
36:29
helping people navigate difficult things. If
36:33
there's no difficulty, if there's no disruption,
36:37
leadership is not happening. Maybe you're just
36:39
managing a process, but leadership happens when
36:42
there's a big challenge. People can either just,
36:45
you know, react based on emotions, or they can
36:51
take a step back, think about what it is that
36:54
they want to do, consider the options. and make
36:57
the choice that is going to be the best for them.
37:02
That's a very interesting view. I find as a leader,
37:06
there's a difference between being a leader and
37:08
a boss. I don't know if you've ever seen the
37:10
graphic of, you know, the big cement block. It's
37:14
sort of drawn as if it was in early Egypt. And
37:17
there's the people pulling the block and the
37:20
leader is out front pulling the block in front
37:23
of them with them. Anybody who's a boss. is the
37:27
person standing up on the cement block and the
37:29
people are pulling and they're pointing at them,
37:31
telling them what to do, but they're not rolling
37:33
up their sleeves and helping them. And I think
37:36
that what you're saying is in moments of difficulty,
37:42
that's where that empathetic bridge for leaders
37:46
should be kicking in. Yes, absolutely. Yeah.
37:50
One other thing that I failed to mention is I
37:53
have a newsletter on LinkedIn called Storytelling
37:56
for Leaders, actually Storytelling for Leadership.
38:00
In it, I have an article where I define what
38:04
those moments of leadership challenge are because
38:07
they happen so often and oftentimes we miss them.
38:10
And so a part of like being a good storyteller
38:13
and even being a leader is noticing, oh my gosh,
38:16
I'm in a moment. There's a challenge happening
38:18
right now. And this is when I really need to
38:21
help people to navigate it. Because if I don't
38:24
address it, I failed. If I say the wrong thing,
38:27
I face those. So it's important to just be able
38:30
to acknowledge it and be able to also enable
38:34
your own agency as a leader so that you are calm
38:37
in those moments and you can think through, how
38:42
should I respond? No, those are great points.
38:45
Sometimes being able to tell that empathetic
38:47
story is also going to help. elicit the calm
38:50
in those storms. Absolutely. Yeah. Well, I could
38:54
go on and on and on talking about this all day.
38:57
But I really appreciate you being here. We do
39:00
have to wrap up. Thank you, Sally, so much for
39:03
being our guest. Thank you for bringing your
39:05
expertise with all of the storytelling as it
39:07
relates to leadership and for sharing your experience
39:11
working with the refugee community. I think if
39:14
I was going to put one word to this podcast,
39:16
it would be empathy. So thank you so much. And
39:19
thank you for having me. I really enjoyed this
39:21
conversation and I am a new fan of the podcast.
39:25
Well, thank you. Thanks for listening. We hope
39:49
you enjoyed the episode and we'll see you next
39:51
time. Happy storytelling!